I never thought of the miniature board games I have as gateway games. They're just a way for me to experience war-games without actually dealing with everything I dislike about them...
I'm one of those people coming from mini board gaming that wants to give war gaming a shot. My group, coming from computer games/online RPGs but not having been board gamers/D&D'ers in the past, wanted another excuse to get together, drink some beers and have some pizza on a Saturday night. We started with Arcadia Quest because it was inexpensive, had RPG elements, and easy to learn and get into... all to see if this was something we'd like. Had a blast and quickly started a monthly to bi-monthly game night. We are now onto Imperial Assault and have Gloomhaven waiting in the wings. This led me down the "these minis would look SO COOL painted" path and now I sit with my little painting workshop area in my den (including my Christmas gift airbrush setup woohoo!). With various games we've accumulated, I've painted a ton of minis and spend way too much time watching painting technique videos and looking for new games/minis to paint. The enjoyment of these games and mini painting led me to the Kill Team starter set. Well, at least it's something I want to try but apparently GW stopped making it already?! This box set seems like the perfect jump off point for me as I'll enjoy painting the minis and terrain and can start trying the mechanics out with family and friends. Also, a local game shop has Friday night Warhammer/Kill Team plays every week. Supposedly they're going to print more or something along those lines but I'm not sure how GW works. Guess we'll just have to wait to see.
I'd argue that some of these board games, of which many you can get second hand at a fraction of the cost of 1 large over priced GW model, have very high quality miniatures. CMON in particular have really good models. if you're looking to paint minis, like me, GW will make you go bankrupt. Their prices on everything is sky high and ridiculous.
You are totally right at 8:50. I am the person starting playing board games with miniature and end up with painting the miniature (the Lumineth realm lords, AoS, are my goals) I came up with the idea someday: why don’t I paint them. Now, I paint my minis, I can’t go back to the time playing minis without painting them. Wonderful Chanel! I am very happy that I found your channel
You say that board gamers might leak into war gamers, but I would argue that it can just as easily leak the other way. How many war gamers actually enjoy the game, rather than painting? How many would play the game if there would not be those minis? I've played few times and to be the game is actually not that fun, and mostly just rolling dice. Board games on the other hand have so many cool games where you do all sorts of things other than just roll dice, and I can still satisfy my painting hobby by painting these minis.
Heroscape was probably one of the more popular miniature board games for the fact that not only did the minis look cool but you could change the battlefield. I would love for heroscape to be brought back because it was both really cool and fun to play.
Insane Mang I have a most of this game before Aquila and D&D expansions. Basically until wotc took it over and “ruins it”. I would love to see heroscape come back unpainted and a bit higher quality minis. I’m a board gamer, not a war gamer. I’m not a fan of the slow play of war gaming but legion keeps sparking interest. I’ve painted a good portion of my zombicide collection, flashpoint, and started on Arcadia quest. I would love to get scythe, blood rage, and rising sun painted but I don’t trust my abilities yet. Zomicide is a great game to practice on. I do agree that the quality of these minis are not as good. The details are fine but the droopy Spears are annoying. Regardless, enjoy and share the hobby no matter how deep you’re into it.
@@TheJdozs the good thing with soft plastic, is if a spear or sword is bent, just pop it in boiled water for a few seconds, it softens it right up, then straighten it out and immerse in cold water. I did that to a few Zombicide Black Plague survivors with bent swords and it fixed them up nicely.
I think one of the best gateway wargames games is Planet 28, its simple, free and you can use toy soldiers as models. It was my first skirmish wargame and I started with toy soldiers, toy castle pieces and an old gaming mat from Heroclix. Its also great for DnD players that want to get into wargaming, since if you want to, you can add really cool story elements and connect your games into a big overarching story. Its just a great game overally and I would recommend it to anyone.
With so many new miniatures out there, they are also great for using them in other games. Some people use the KStarters to boost their D&D collections. I want to start using these minis for games like Frostgrave or Infinity.
We just call em "dudes on a map" games. I think that minis started appearing in boardgames to appeal to the American market. Maybe some folks find wooden cubes to be too European. The fact is that the minis are just fluff, good games will stand the test of time because of good gameplay.
I started painting miniatures last year when I decided to paint my copy of Descent 2nd Edition. I'm on the last two characters and have now painted nearly 40 miniatures. I've found I really enjoy painting miniatures and my paint collection has exploded and skills improved quite a bit. I used some of Sorastro's guides on RUclips to help but watched so many of your videos and Sam's now that I'm researching my first 40K army and want to get into the hobby if only for the building and painting aspect of it.
I think you are missing a major market that these boards games target. Wargamers who love painting miniatures, but no longer wargame. Because getting you're friends to invest big bucks into warhammer isn't as easy as bringing a fully painted game to them. Then again I also think you're underestimating the number of people who buy these games to paint. It might not be 50-60%, but it's definitely higher then 5-10%
I’m a great example. Collect 40K specifically because I love painting the models and love the lore and everything surrounding the universe but I have absolutely no desire to actually play the game and it’s gotten me into looking to collecting other miniatures I like even though I know I’ll never play the game they belong to. Just fills my creative zen. Miniatures are just the perfect size, can display them all without taking up too much space.
I can agree with this. I used to play Warhammer Fantasy battle back in the day but since it was expensive and non of my friends played I stopped. My favourite thing about wargaming was the painting anyway so all these miniatures based game have really been scratching my painting itch - W
I'm not a wargamer. I follow this channel for painting tips I use for painting my board game minis. Will boardgame minis bring me to wargaming? No, but it's brought me to channels like this to expand my painting skills. So there is definitely some crossover.
The description of the models in today’s board games as soft plastic with terrible detail & bendy spears is somewhat out of date by about 3 years. Mini production quality in mini centric board games has come on in leaps and bounds in recent years.
anab0lic We can enjoy something and think it’s really good without it being the absolute best. I kind of think Uncle Atom hasn’t seen enough recent board game minis to realize how good they’ve gotten, especially with the slightly limited examples that he cited. Ultimately, we all have different preferences in our hobbies, and that’s okay.
I have many of the best PVC models from various board games as I've been an avid backer of them on Kickstarter over the past couple of years and they definitely are lacking, so much so that I don't care to even bother painting them most of the time. Bigger models usually come out pretty well but the smaller stuff (like space marine scale) never matches the gorgeous renders you see displayed on their campaign pages unfortunately. It doesn't bother me all that much though, as I'm usually backing these games to explore different game mechanics and get different gameplay experiences, be it multi or solo play, that Wargames don't offer.
I am a D&D player/DM... who loves painting minis.... I also like making terrain. Last year I bought GloomHaven... more of an adventure game similar vein to d&d but it doesn't need a DM and is run with cards.... and has heaps of mini figures. Now I have discovered FrostGrave..... ordered and now constructing my own pirates.... (mainly for my current d&d campaign as its pirate themed) but I have been talking to a couple of friends that own all the frostgrave type stuff and have a game board... we will be playing soon... I understand its more of a skirmish game. (they are also war gamers)
One of the first board game that I painted when i was young was Hero’s Quest. It came with a lot of minis and I thought the barbarian, wizard, elf and dwarf would look much cooler if they were painted so I got out the old model paints and started painting the heroes. After they were painted and looked much better than just coloured plastic I moved on to painting the bad guys in the game too. I guess you could say that Hero’s Quest was the main reason I got into the war gaming hobby. Having enjoyed just painted the minis I looked for other things to paint and found out that there were other kinds of games like Hero’s Quest. I know the game does not hold up now a days but I will always have nostalgic memory of the game. Show less
Never painted a mini but as a collector I say the best thing about Heroquest is Heroquest. .. I still live inside the dungeon to this time... a special thought on the "mystery manor " mission with the teleporting doors.... there I knew I could make dungeon inside dungeons inside dungeons.
I have been painting minis for the better part of 3 years at this point, and while I have painted minis for DnD earlier in my life, it is only until now that I have really thrown myself into the hobby. And the game that started all of this was Zombicide. Since then it has gotten me into WWII Wargaming, Fallout Wargaming, Conan The Miniature game, Massive Darkness, AvP....the list goes on. In other words, miniature board games are the fast track to a plastic crack addiction I can think of.
i know of at least 2 of my friends who all the time buy new games just for the minis. Then they plan on using them in other table top games like DnD. (which they actually never do since they realise planning a season is tons of work, but thats beside the point)
Can we just acknowledge the (probably) unnoticed genius of the Title Card sound effects? Been watching for about 7 months (got into 40K in June 2018) and I never mentioned it before, but I really dig the fact that you use era-correct sounds for each of those little slides in the title card: Sword clang for AoS, machinegun fire for the WW2 tanks, and a laser sound for 40K. It's a subtle thing but definitely shows the love put into the title card.
I bought Conan the boardgame from Monolyth about six months. I never considered playing or painting miniatures. Not because I didn´t like them, but because I didn´t knew anybody to play with. But I had so much fun painting the miniatures that I want more. And when people see them all painted and cool they just want to play. So yes. Your theory is right. These miniatures are bringing more people into the gaming community.
Even Heroquest back in the day had loads of miniatures. Then again a lot of boardgames are also secret hidden beginning army deals with a board game attached. Warhammer Quest was a big evil army deal and Gorkamorka was a big 40k Ork army deal, for example. Many other games with a lot of miniatures included are not army deals but they like having a lot of miniatures in there.
Great vid Adam! I'm a strict big box boardgamer and got into your channel years ago because of painting my Imperial Assault. And you're right if you think that doing these big box games could lead to warhammer, etc!
It is definitely a positive thing, it's something that got me from board games into war gaming. I loved games like risk when I was a kid, and I always wanted better looking models. Then I stopped playing for many years until the recent resurgence, when I started to play boardgames with my friends that got more complex and wargame-like with every next one we bought. You get that itch for ever more realistic models (by scale and detail) and ever more realistic gameplay. I still do enjoy some hex based war games though
My besty has bought a few large sets just for the minis to use for D&D. If you're starting from zero it's a great way to get a good sized collection, and the quality of the ones he got at least are equal to or better than most of the reaper bones models.
Part of the appeal of board games is the scale. there is no line of sight and such because its not a skirmish its a battle..or its not a battle, its a war. not a war, but the history of a nation across centuries. its a nation and a worldwide conquest, not a single conflict in the woods somewhere. There is often a lot of switching between different scales as well. going from travel on a world map to more localized representation of forces and back again. also, in so many videos, its really weird how much miniature game youtubers talk about board gamers (who are not mutually exclusive from miniature gamers) as some group that is ripe for conversion to the holy roman church church of minis. its kind of weird and a little creepy. like mini gamers are proselytizing or something...
Well, I’m very interested is getting more people into miniatures, and it seems easier to get board gamers (especially ones who love board games with lots of minis) into it than say, video gamers or fishing enthusiasts or whatnot. Thanks for watching!
I don't know any board game players personally, among who I am a member, that do not currently or who did not formerly, play miniature games or rpgs. But maybe that's confirmation bias beginning in wargames myself
Darrin Knode I check all the boxes you mentioned too. I think I’m fortunate in maintaining a healthy range of somewhat connected hobbies but if there was only one hobby I could have, it would be RPGs.
I think the reasosn why miniatures are in new boardgames is simple: 1. Increases thus total kickstarter amount/popularity for those games both through the increased price per unit and attracting a different crowd (people who like minis). 2. The price of minis manufactured through this method has been going down while quality has been going up (back when I was a kid, minis were in lead and cost minimum $2.50 in 2019 dollars for a 25mm scale mini, detail was very low until Warhammer came out later). 3. boardgaming competes with other forms of entertainment for our attention, namely television and video games. It’s revival is due to providing somethings that those forms cannot, namely community and tactile feel. Miniatures provide the latter in spades, the former usually need some “sweet spot of mediocrity” in gameplay/complexity to sell well and complement the minis. I think over time, as you point out they can “gateway” into miniature wargaming (zombicide or mechs vs. minions) or more difficult boardgaming (“weight” of boardgames like a complex eurogame), or even full blown rpgs (from Gloomhaven). 4. Miniatures have always been with us (especially as Americans) dating to Monopoly is so popular with children (the metal player markers and feel of paper money) to the point of being ingrained/evolutionary. Older people will associate the same attraction of their youth with the Game of Life or Risk, younger people will associate the same with Axis & Allies, which is the progenitor of “ameritrash”). Heck Chess’s attraction/popularity over Go or Batgammon could be attributed to “miniatures.” Just some thoughts.
I always love your videos, thoughts, and ideas. As for this one, I agree that the boardgame nowadays (especially the ones that was Kickstarted) provided some sort of spectacle and the same therapeutic qualities of organizing, painting, and playing. I've backed my fair share of KS based board games and those were among my main reasons to back too. But personally, I also think it's about bang for the buck too. In terms of KS based board games, the basic pledge alone offers a lot of things for their "price". This is something retail based games could rarely provide. Especially if it is compared to wargaming. Let's take a Start Collecting IG box for example, for $85 one can only get 11 cadians with a heavy weapon unit and a Leman Russ. In GW and wargaming quality-price ratio and value, that's a major steal. But for board games (especially KS ones) like Rising Sun, one can get around 148 miniatures (80 human size figures, 22 big, detailed monster figures, 7 god figures, etc) for only $150ish, so it's an even bigger, better steal. And board gamers in general don't really care (or even aware) of the quality of plastic being used. All they (me included) see is 100+ minis for that kind of price. I also think this has something to do with board games with lots of minis being "gateway products" into the collecting, painting aspects of the hobby for the general public. So it's not just gameplay-wise, like you said about Zombicide. Board games are seen as a lot less demanding product for people who wants to get into miniature (war)gaming but just don't wanna spend a lot of money for GW products. (Although they secretly still wanna play them). Those board games are (usually) one shot products that won't rotate, won't get eventual codex / manual revisions, and won't experience any kind of power creeps too. So it gives BGamers a sense of ease and comfort knowing that their BGs won't be rendered obsolete within several years.
That's exactly my case. I was always a board gamer and I never considered going in to war gaming (how do you freaks play without a board?). But after I painted miniatures for Wrath of Ashardalon (my first ever painted miniatures) I decided to buy WH40K first strike, mostly because I wanted to paint those miniatures. Now after few months I play war games (WH40K) with my two kids and we all enjoy it.
Hey Adam. I'm exactly the gamer you were talking about at the end of the video. Got back into painting a couple of years ago after a 25 year break by just wanting to spruce up Mansions of Madness (only really because the actual models are pretty bad), moved onto painting Descent, Gloomhaven, Fireteam Zero, Spacehulk and This War of Mine. At the moment I'm now building some terrain hexes for Shadespire having painted 4 warbands, and I recently picked up the Goreblade Warband and some Putrid Blightkings (as a direct result of your videos!) and am giving getting into AoS some serious thought ...............:)
Two of my favourite board games come with painted miniatures, mage knight and Xia. considering delving into the world of miniature painting with my gloomhaven pieces
I wonder if Monopoly was the first miniatures board game? I cohabit Board games, RPG and WGs. I'm primarily a WGs painter and player but put Mansions of Madness in front of me and I'll play all day! I even have 1st Ed of Talisman which is cardboard characters. Great tube as usual Uncle A
@@xr8dmoose135 Yes, many good memories for me, too. And so many characters to choose from! Unfortunately the last 10% of the game, where people were actually making that push to win, was seldom anywhere near as fun as the 90% that came before it. But at least they tried to design an interesting, thematic, variable end to the game, rather than the lazy _"Oh, you got to blah victory points; You win. Pack up time."_
Hope you get well soon! I had to stop buying miniatures. I ended up buying too many starter kits for various games and now I have a ton of painting to do. I'm putting a stop to it for now. At least until I get through painting these guys up and that will be a while because I enjoy painting.
Can you use Citadel and Vallejo paints when painting the softer minis you mentioned? I have ordered, but not yet received, kick starter figures from CMON. Thanks for these videos you produce.
I say it is not meant to be painted because I compare to warhammer miniatures. The Hell Brute, for example, has a detachable part of its hand to reach hard places. Now, compare it to the Blood Rage Troll with the hammer. If at least the bases were a different part...
They can't easily charge £100+ without a bunch of unnecessary miniatures. It's so expensive and so much busy work , it's a whole genre I basically avoid. Usually it's like Scythe: oh it's got miniatures, so it's probably a dry, long, expensive misadvertised money and time sink instead of a good game
I think it's a combination of things. First we are in a board game renaissance. Additionally video game technology has brought with it an emphasis on 3D models, and a wave of people interested in making careers of it. Next is the advancement of CNC technology to cut EDM electrodes of the miniatures, which makes the mold much cheaper to make. And finally we have the natural progression of miniature design artistry. BTW, even though 95% of miniatures never get painted, most people still prefer them over cardboard. Myself, I think cardboard is king. I love modeling, though.
I buy board games just to have tons of miniatures to paint! And then when friends come home, who are not hobbyists, I also have something nice to play!
I fully agree with you, but some board games - CMON ones (Rising Sun, Blood Rage, Death May Die) have minis in the same quality than GW ones, agree on the softness of the plastic, but its extremely easy to fix with hot water (bendings). Am a painter and i can tell you quality is in some instances just the same. Take care and please more content :)
Im a long time gamer who kind of drifted away from gaming due to life getting in the way combined with Lazyness and video games scratching that itch without any effort required. I still kept all my minis painted or not boxed away. Every now and then i look at them and wish life would go back to a time where i had time and effort to get back to tounament level play again, but its been 19 years and the hobbylandscape is unrecognizable to me. Id love to find a way back in.
Thanks for the tip. These new boardgame hybridizations confuse me to look at. And i was a 2nd edition player complexity and decks of psy cards was our poison of choice.
15 years off for me. I got the itch by going to a new game store looking for board games. I saw how far minis had improved since the late 90's early 2000 Warhammer Fantasy and started rummaging through my closet to find old, dusty and broken dwarves and elves. I stripped and painted some up and spent some time contemplating what I want to do. I've decided on Warcry for now, and maybe Bolt Action to follow. Looking at my mostly unpainted Warhammer Armies, i have no desire to collect expensive plastic again, only to let it end up bare in a closet. Everything I buy is getting painted, and that means it needs to be small and achievable for an adult lifestyle. I'm also much more conscious about where my money goes these days, so I'd rather have 5 different warbands with unique aesthetics and play-styles than 1 army for the same price. I was heavily interested in Kill Team, but a lot of people say the rules make it a jankier version of 40k and I dislike that I'm likely to have to buy several boxes ($100s) in order to field competent squads. Warcry seems like a one box, one squad solution for $30-45 a pop.
I think you did some good analysis on the “whys”... now I will admit, getting back into board games like axis and allies and then Star Wars Rebellion, definitely acted as a gateway to getting into tabletop war gaming for me and some of my friends!
As a boardgamers and not a miniatures gamer, I would agree that I would always prefer pre-painted minis. Cause I can’t paint them myself. Crappy pre-painted looks better than no paint at all.
There have been a few games that do require assembly and that is a big block for people coming from that hobby to this one. Shadows of Brimstone and Kingdom Death Monster did require assembly and I swore off of them until I started digging into this one. It seemed like way too much work to have to assemble an entire game before I could play. As a board gamer, I wanted to open up the box, read some rules and jump in. Age of Sigmar is hands down the game I put the most effort into actually doing these things before playing. I have 1500 points of Stormcast painted and working on a 1500 point Nighthaunt force now as well. I will be taking them both to 2000 soon but it has been a lot of work but also very enjoyable and rewarding. It sucks a bit that it took me so long to discover that.
It is also MUCH easier to differentiate the different types of units when you have minis vs chips/tokens. +The power of the unit often also mirrored with it's size. Therefore you can evaluate the situation with a simple glance on the board.
I started painting the board game minis from sword and sorcery, and that lead me to painting tutorials for Warhammer models. Now I’m painting death guard marines, and I’ve found a new hobby with Warhammer. It’s...awesome 😆.
I believe the primary reason is the apparent low cost of soft plastic miniatures, which appears to be a relatively recent development. Visual appeal has always been important to the majority of board gamers, and the only reason miniatures weren't widely used in the past for game pieces, was the production cost, rather than practical or aesthetic concerns. Just because a board game utilizes miniatures, doesn't make it a miniature game in my opinion, and often doesn't make the game a suitable gateway to miniature gaming either. Kickstarter is also a huge factor, as miniatures are frequently employed to make board games stand out.
Not feeling well, and a pa-chow right outta the gates! Uncle Adam for President! Winter storm warning here in Columbus OH tomorrow; I have the weekend off (rare), and I'm going to paint Blood Red Skies and catch up on Uncle Adam vids!
Any chance you could do a video covering how to combat 'hobby burnout or fatigue'? Love the channel and thanks for the great videos :) May the dice forever roll in your favour
A typical board gamer will judge war gaming as shallow and wide - where board games are deep but narrow. If you take the lore into account and care for that stuff, you might be able to compensate a little. That's how I've seen board gamers go to war gaming at least, you need to get them hooked on the lore.
you guys always talk about us like we dont also play minis games. the fact of the matter is that both board games and miniature games are picking up some of the best parts of both worlds and forming hybrid products now.
meh, I dont really care much about lore I just choose war game systems that are not in anyway shallow, Malifaux, Guildball, Infinity, warmahordes etc etc.
Shallow? I don't really play board games nor war games, but at least from concept (armies of many units, tons of factions, tons of choices) war games don't really seem shallow.
@@A_B_1917 They oftentimes are. While having lots of stuff on the table in Warhammer (just as an example) that doesn't mean you as the player have a lot of choices and planning available to you. The strength in those games (from my limited experience at least) comes from preparing your armies beforehand and then just "dice it out on the battlefield" to see which army composition was better.
Hello, Uncle Atom. Some thoughts here. I am currently working on Blood Rage miniatures and it is obvious it is highly detailed but also never intented to be painted. Some miniatures have impossible to reach spots. And I really believe this is true. The manufacturer does not consider that miniatures painted. However, it is important having highly detailed miniatures in the game because it increases the value idea of the game as a product. Having cool miniatures displayed on a picture at the back of the box helping showing how elaborated the game is a product, increasing the interest on the game and justifying its higher price.
Considering that the Blood Rage minis were designed by Studio McVey, they were definitely designed to be painted. There are some beautiful examples of painted ones out there. Which ones are you having trouble with? (Just played a game yesterday and was reminded that I really need to paint at least some of them, so far I only have the Ice Giant somewhat done. I actually backed the project originally just to get those georgeous McVey models.)
Didn't it start at CMON? Or really "took off" with CDON board games? That mini painters bought board games just for the minis and once board game makers caught onto this, they made sure that was a reason to buy the board game; "it has great minis"? Some board games this is 100% true, like Kingdom Death: Monster. The minis are far better than the board game, but the level needed to paint them is much, much higher than say a Zombicide game. I hear people say the same about the/one of the Conan games. I've heard many times people buy a board games, just to get a lot of minis cheap, especially when it's on sale or used, to use them in other games, like P&P RPG's. I really hope no one buys KD:M and starts first time mini painting at that level; Thy Will Fail.
I'm in this boat. I buy, usually second hand, miniature heavy board games to have a lot of model to paint at an affordable price. GW's price point will keep a lot of people from ever migrating over. Their prices are just stupid. That being said, I typically only buy board games i'm actually interested in playing as well.
what I have started to do for budget issues is buy some cheaper games with less miniatures and buying pathfinder and D&D miniatures that can be used for several games. This also helps with space issues. For example I bought Folklore the Affliction non miniatures version and used these other minis.
The plastic that is used is mainly PVC, and they are many times multipart plastics assembled and glued in China. (the moulds for the plastic are created in China, injection moulded there and assembled and glued there..) I’ve been shown that by a Chinese company I approached to assist me with production of my board game.
just a funny fact it takes me very long to get my army done (well, still havent finished my 500pt), cause I sculpt most of my miniatures (new weapons, heads, tails, body parts. I keep some original parts in most cases, still that takes a lot of time) Still I wanted to have a few test games to get the rules, to see how it all works and to try my lists. So I played a few games with coins and other small tokens to represent units. And as uncle Atom said - absolutely playable, but as enjoyable.
It's the Kickstarter effect. You need the visual spectacle to sell the campaign. Rules and mechanics are just not sexy enough - or rather not easily translatable - during a crowdfunding campaign.
On a side note I love the bitz stores on ebay. You can sometimes get some really inexpensive minis from the Warhammer lots if you get lucky. I have a bunch of those familiar minis from the silver tower set. One of these days I am going to get suckered into playing a wargame.
As an avid Board gamer looking in. Tabletop war gaming looks great but it’s very intimidating to start. I don’t have the extra time required to build and paint big armies. It’s really two hobbies and I think a lot of board gamers may be on board for the game but not for the other half. I think these new games that are more accessible to board gamers is a good step in the right direction. I do want to try a squad based game to try it out. Any suggestions and the best one to try out?
I've been on a board game buying kick lately, just for the miniatures. By judiciously buying on clearance or other deals you can easily collect a nice set of 28 to 32 mm miniatures for a buck a piece. Not bad at all.
I think a sort of stigma has developed in the board gaming world over the last few years when it comes to components. Simple plastic or wooden cubes are often considered to be not good enough now.
That's such an American exchange. 'hey I'd like to paint these so I can improve' 'thanks that's great' 'now you have to guide me something in return' I never hear of that sort of thing in Europe. It's interesting to me
Being a Nurgle player, I feel that you having some of his blessing only enhanced the video. For the sake of all others and yourself as well, get well soon (if you haven’t already)
i think its more the fact that the plastic minis help with emersion specially if you play a game like D&D (or any role playing game). minis are waaaay cool and if the board game doesnt suit your tasteyou got some cool ones you can use else where specially if you play WH franchised games
These are good days for folks like me who are looking for cheap miniatures for tabletop RPGs! So many board games like RuneWars have excellent miniatures that fit in well with D&D minis.
I think the whole revival of "analogue gaming" (is that a good descriotion of any game tabletop, rpg, board game and wargaming?) Is great and many of us cross genres and in that sense the development towards better minis regardless of rulesystem is fantastic news. I always look for cool boardgame minis that can double uo and be used in wargaming. Does anyone else do the same?
The worst thing about a lot of these games, unless they get a really big publisher (particularly the kickstarters) is that usually they only get one print run so the only community for them is early adopters. And a lot of the kickstarters succumb to the Games Workshop boxed game thing of wargamers just buying them for the minis.
You mentioned CMON... have you checked out the quality and material of the minus for their game, "A Song of Ice and Fire". Very hard plastic with straight swords!
Yeah, I guess you're right about it being a "minis" game. I'm a board gamer, and it was advertised to us board gamers, and I bought it mostly for it's theme and that I own a few other CMON boardgames... so I never considered it a "minis" game. Probably explains why my initial reaction was, "What's this about moving a *tray*?" I followed-up that thought by commenting to myself that an "X" number of minis sitting on a tray is no different than using cardboard chits with differing printed strength stats as found in normal wargames. (Except one method requires a LOT more space than the other)!
@@tabletopminions But even their boardgames such as The Others have amazing quality miniatures, and so does Mythic/Monolith and their Mythic Battles Games. They have amazing detail and are really high quality. Boardgames have much MUCH higher quality than you give credit for. Your video is years out of date.
In a market with a finite limited amount of players, and more and more games coming out, you need to make the games stand out more to get people to buy them. Using my gaming group as an (admittedly extreme) example. We have probably has 150-200 games between us now, so we cover many of the styles and genres of games already. In order for a new game to pique our interest the quality of the components has to stand out these days. Storage solutions, print quality and miniatures are good ways of upping that quality. It's now also much much cheaper to produce those miniatures than it used to be. With new tech such as 3d printing (professional as opposed to home) the cost of producing the molds, which is usually the biggest cost for miniatures, has come right down. If you check out the cost breakdowns of Monoliths recent Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter the game cost $82 per box to produce. Of that cost it was only $5 per box for the molds and $1.5 for the sculpts. At the same time the printing of cardboard was $20. So it cost less to produce the models than it did the cardboard. Ok it was only 21 miniatures in the box but overall the cost is cheap enough now that the visual gain you get from going from tokens/cardboard characters to full on miniatures is well worth it. Increasing the number of miniatures scales nicely too, so use that mold 5 times in a box and suddenly it's even cheaper per item.... but you get to say you have loads of miniatures and stand out. These figures come from Monolith themselves and can be found here www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/9g0075/claustrophobia_the_cardboard_costs_more_than_the/ TLDR: In an ever increasingly saturated market boardgames need to stand out, miniatures is one way of doing that and the cost to produce these figures has become low enough that the extra sales outweight the price increase over cheaper components. PS: Don't post at 1:30am after a 14hr work day... it takes too long to put your thoughts down in a post :)
So much of these boardgames and they are always expensive. Anyway, true they will get some people slowly towards the hobby. Just because of the thought they have each time they play one : "It would be so cool if they were painted"... (Speaking out of personnal experience ;-) )
i buy lots of the gateway games minis to use in other games lol. Test of Honour? you mean Nippon army. Rising sun? you mean wizards for my Nippon army!
Board games with miniatures are beneficial as I wouldn’t be a war gamer without them. Talisman is not a gateway game. It is as much as gateway game as monopoly. But in 1995 GW released the third edition which used warhammer fantasy miniatures at the time. It is me researching those races I hadn’t heard of such as beastmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarf, Chaos warrior etc etc. That thought me what Warhammer was and turned me into a war gamer. The primary reason I am a war gamer is the painting aspect. Those cheaper 90’s GW plastic miniatures thought me that I love painting.
Honestly the main reason I haven't picked up BSF at the moment is because I don't have the time build them. I still have my Necromunda minis to build...
Because miniatures simply attract more people. Good minis look more bad ass then meeples for example and painted they even look more bad ass. And you can use those minis in some other games as well, like RPG or homebrew and what not. And yes people tend to pay way more for those board games than their actual cost to make.
I can tell you... I did paint my Talisman minis waaay back a few years ago for my boardgame...wasn't much, wasn't "pro"... BUT Now that I've had a few more boardgames with minis, I Do now seek out more info on painting and how to paint them... I'm here now right?
I think you got half the answer there. Yeah, mini manufacture has got cheaper. But also while board game sales may be exploding upwards, the cost of paper, card and wood manufacture has gone through the roof. Yet minis still have a higher perceived value, so including them helps justify the price. One of the best recent examples is Thunderstone Quest. It’s a deck building game that comes with 500+ cards. And also six minis. The minis are utterly superfluous. Not that they could be done with wood instead, but you don’t even really a player piece for that game. (They are technically used but until you have goldfish memory you don’t need them). But reality is, designing and printing 500 cards is massively more costly than 6 minis. But people perceive the minis to be far more valuable then “just card”.
they are possibly attempting to compete with (or just survive in the face of) computer/console games with better graphics by trying to make them more visually interesting. computer games started out with graphics not much better than those cardboard cutouts from games like civilization or ASL, but now obviously they are on a whole other level and its understandably hard for board games to compete and remain financially affordable for casual gamers.
Started painting zombicide black plague/green horde/horde box with zombicide invader on the way..Going to bathing in minis. Watched your video on hording too late. Haha lots to practice i guess.
I have a hard time playing board games that don't have minis. Little painted squares and things that look like pawns just don't do it for me. And it's fun to have something more to paint, even if it involves speed painting.
As a long time historical wargamer, and when I say wargamer, I mean Avalon Hill, SPI, GMT, et cetera, who switched over to tabletop wargaming a few years ago, I think it's ironic that you refer to tabletop wargaming...as wargaming...and to historical wargaming, GMT games, et cetera, as board games with "chips". Those board wargamer guys (grognards, if you will), considered themselves wargamers, and often looked at tabletop miniature gaming, especially years ago, as a simplified, archaic ancestor of "modern (board) wargaming". Now that genre of wargaming is fading and perceptions have flipped.
This is an example of how putting things in categories, while sometimes useful (e.g., so that people who say they 'like to read military science fiction' can be pointed at David Weber) can lead to endless quibbling, perhaps with no practical use, in the border cases. Some random thoughts follow: Consider the Your Move Games "Battleground" card game system (soon to be rebooted), which is in every respect a miniatures wargame with flat cards replacing trays of miniatures. Far cheaper than miniatures, and requiring a bit less table space. The game is the same - indeed looking up the old Chainmail rules, I see many similarities - but you will rarely see it hitting the table at a game convention, because it doesn't have miniatures. Or because boardgamers don't know what to make of it at all, with its rather complicated rules for engaging the enemy. Is a game that is regulated on a grid instead of free-moving on a map still a miniatures wargame, or is it just a regular boardgame with cool components? I am thinking of the late lamented HeroScape game from Hasbro, which had line of sight based on physical sighting, but was regulated on a hex map. The recent 'Song of Ice and Fire' miniatures game from CMON has been actively discussed on its boardgamegeek forum in a way that other games of the genre have not been, seemingly because it has more 'boardgamish' rules than other such games, whatever that means. If you are looking for a gateway game to bring boardgamers into miniatures gaming, this may be the one. Certainly the Avalon Hill/SPI/GMT games have long used miniatures-like (i.e., physically based) concepts such as line of sight (probably starting with PanzerBlitz?) even though the pieces are just cardboard counters. For years, a local convention had a regular event featuring a big-table implementation of Avalon Hill's 'Circus Maximus' chariot-racing boardgame, complete with miniature chariots driving on a mammoth track. It was considered a 'miniatures' event, even though it was just a big ol' boardgame (with discrete spaces on the track) with cool pieces. Consider Risk. Is it more a 'wargame/miniatures' game when the original little cubies were replaced by cheap little plastic soldiers? As a minor point, 'area control' games include Euro-type games in which separate areas are controlled by simple numerical superiority, e.g., by adding counters on your turn. Jim Dunnigan's 'Origins of Word War II' game, from Avalon Hill, is an early example of this; but even a game like 'World's Fair 1893', whose map is purely schematic, falls into this category. Replacing the counters with miniatures would rarely add much to such games. And of course, tastes differ. You may find painting minis relieves stress; with my unsteady hands and less than sharp vision, I find it quite stressful indeed.
Dungeons & Dragons was my gateway game. It introduced me to painting minis and building terrain...I switched to 40k because I wanted to work with more models and getting 5 people together in my playgroup was frustrating.
Gateway games are not necessarily directed towards miniatures wargaming. Gateway games are simply a bridge between simple boardgames and heavier games.
You had previously mentioned Blood Bowl as a gateway game. Wouldn't it really be closer in category of these board games you're talking about? It's played on a grid and the rules have almost nothing in common with a wargame. Do you still consider it a gateway game?
I definitely consider myself the board gaming type and unless recently, I basically avoided anything near to wargaming. All the handling of rulers or other templates, countless dice chucking and what feels like 80% looking over the stats of your army instead of interacting with other players (aside from the battlefield). It looked so boring and I couldn't comprehend why anyone would do this more often. Well, I had a similar view on boardgames with tons of miniatures as well; I thought most publishers only added them so they could up the price and they wouldn't add to the game really. Partially, I still think this is true for some games (Pandemic Cthulhu for example). But I came to realize that often enough, the threedimensional model gives you a better feeling for the situation and helps creating an ambience (although I think a board game should be able to create an atmosphere without minis). And a figure definitely is easier to recognize for the eye when it has three dimensions instead of two. It just makes playing more accessible I think. It's another step up from "there are 10 round black and white cardboard tokens for each player and they have a number written on them indicating to whom they belong" to "you are the player with the red blips, I take the blue blips". The shape of the miniature does help in this case. Story goes on: at one point, I had a look into the Conan board game and it seemed absolutely awesome. Played it at the Spiel expo before its release and then at least got the retail version myself (unfortunately I was too late for the kickstarter campaign which had even more content). It's a boardgame without any questions - there are defined spaces the figures can move into by spending movement points, no rulers or anything. You just manage the action points you have for your character and try to beat the scenario. It's a really nice game and it softened my view on miniature games in general. Soon after getting it, I also started painting with acrylics (coming from art studies and watercolors) and yeah, went down that road. Also, more and more games were released that were heavy on the miniature count, so eventually it was hard to avoid them. Now it seems like a common thing and I backed at least one game purely because I thought the minis looked so cool (Hate from CMON). I got into painting because I thought: those grey blops on the board are okay but a bit hard to distinguish. It became a hobby (though I was painting before) and now I usually try to paint new games miniatures before I start playing. It became part of the whole gaming hobby, although technically you could play those games without painting them. But as I mentioned, it also really helps to distinguish between the figures on the board. My aim with painting usually is: you should just let your eye drift over the board and just by recognizing a certain pattern in shape and colors, know which figure is where. And to close off this awefully long comment: last year I eventually gave in and had a demo game of SFG's Guildball. I really did like Blood Bowl Team Manager (the card game version of BB) and since I felt okay with miniatures for a while now, so I thought I could tackle this business with rulers and templates and letting dice decide whether your striker hits a goal or not. Well, it really got me there and although the whole measuring business feels a little strange, I really love the flexibility with which the figures move over the pitch and act in their ways. It wasn't as hard to get used to as I had imagined and I was pretty much blown away. Even against the odds that I actually really dislike SFG for their behaviour with the dark souls boardgame (not that I'm affected) and how they interact with their customers. Nevertheless, I started buying one or another Guildball team from them, although usually snarling whilst doing so. I think this eventually has lead me to a path that may very well end in me playing more wargames. I have been watching Freebooter's Fate for a while and the wargaming aspect always bothered me until late. But I really like the theme and probably I'll get me a team of pirates and I think that's when I'll finally be stuck in this swamp of wargaming. Left to say: you don't have to be one or the other, you can do wargaming and boardgaming and don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Depending on your co-players, they might add up quite nicely. Sometimes I get the feel that some people think you have to be one or the other. You don't. Have a look at the other world, it's nice as well.
I have been noticing the same trend and I think its great, the others 7 sins gave me so much to add to my chaos army and to use as NPC's for our Dark Heresy RPG's
People that plays historical counter based war simulations consider themselves wargamers. They usually refer to 40k or warmachine as miniature wargames. Is Star wars Armada a miniature wargame or a fancy board game with miniatures?
Because it just figures. But seriously, its about visuals. The folks who play games like Magic are metagamers who enjoy calculating to the nith degree combinations and methods to win. Maybe they like the pretty art on the cards, but that is secondary to why they play. Then you have gamers like me who enjoy the cinematic pageantry of seeing the game play out like a battle scene in a movie, who care little about counting the odds, and just want to wade in like Leroy. For me, I like showing off my painted miniatures, to compensate for my poor game play.
I'm going to guess ahead of time, it all boils down to one thing: 3D printing... Cost of manufacture was always the blocker for including cool minis in games.
Going frmo small cardboard tokens to plastic models is like going from PS one to PS3 or PS4. It doesnt HAVE to make the game better, but a pretty boardgame gets played more often.
*sits on a throne of unpainted minis* yes i would like more minis in my board games
I had enough with massive darkness... now I can think again on which buy or not.
haha I can relate
But sire, I have a cunning plan...
Best part of my Friday is watching a tabletop minions video with a cup of coffee before I head off to work.
I never thought of the miniature board games I have as gateway games. They're just a way for me to experience war-games without actually dealing with everything I dislike about them...
I'm one of those people coming from mini board gaming that wants to give war gaming a shot. My group, coming from computer games/online RPGs but not having been board gamers/D&D'ers in the past, wanted another excuse to get together, drink some beers and have some pizza on a Saturday night. We started with Arcadia Quest because it was inexpensive, had RPG elements, and easy to learn and get into... all to see if this was something we'd like. Had a blast and quickly started a monthly to bi-monthly game night. We are now onto Imperial Assault and have Gloomhaven waiting in the wings. This led me down the "these minis would look SO COOL painted" path and now I sit with my little painting workshop area in my den (including my Christmas gift airbrush setup woohoo!). With various games we've accumulated, I've painted a ton of minis and spend way too much time watching painting technique videos and looking for new games/minis to paint.
The enjoyment of these games and mini painting led me to the Kill Team starter set. Well, at least it's something I want to try but apparently GW stopped making it already?! This box set seems like the perfect jump off point for me as I'll enjoy painting the minis and terrain and can start trying the mechanics out with family and friends. Also, a local game shop has Friday night Warhammer/Kill Team plays every week. Supposedly they're going to print more or something along those lines but I'm not sure how GW works. Guess we'll just have to wait to see.
I'd argue that some of these board games, of which many you can get second hand at a fraction of the cost of 1 large over priced GW model, have very high quality miniatures. CMON in particular have really good models.
if you're looking to paint minis, like me, GW will make you go bankrupt. Their prices on everything is sky high and ridiculous.
You are totally right at 8:50. I am the person starting playing board games with miniature and end up with painting the miniature (the Lumineth realm lords, AoS, are my goals) I came up with the idea someday: why don’t I paint them. Now, I paint my minis, I can’t go back to the time playing minis without painting them. Wonderful Chanel! I am very happy that I found your channel
You say that board gamers might leak into war gamers, but I would argue that it can just as easily leak the other way. How many war gamers actually enjoy the game, rather than painting? How many would play the game if there would not be those minis? I've played few times and to be the game is actually not that fun, and mostly just rolling dice.
Board games on the other hand have so many cool games where you do all sorts of things other than just roll dice, and I can still satisfy my painting hobby by painting these minis.
Gloomhaven is my gateway: Paper standees--->3d printed minis--->looking for games just to make more minis
As someone who deeply invests in board games with minis I am surprised at how tactful you were during the whole video. Kudos to you!
Heroscape was probably one of the more popular miniature board games for the fact that not only did the minis look cool but you could change the battlefield. I would love for heroscape to be brought back because it was both really cool and fun to play.
Insane Mang I have a most of this game before Aquila and D&D expansions. Basically until wotc took it over and “ruins it”.
I would love to see heroscape come back unpainted and a bit higher quality minis.
I’m a board gamer, not a war gamer. I’m not a fan of the slow play of war gaming but legion keeps sparking interest.
I’ve painted a good portion of my zombicide collection, flashpoint, and started on Arcadia quest. I would love to get scythe, blood rage, and rising sun painted but I don’t trust my abilities yet. Zomicide is a great game to practice on.
I do agree that the quality of these minis are not as good. The details are fine but the droopy Spears are annoying.
Regardless, enjoy and share the hobby no matter how deep you’re into it.
@@TheJdozs the good thing with soft plastic, is if a spear or sword is bent, just pop it in boiled water for a few seconds, it softens it right up, then straighten it out and immerse in cold water.
I did that to a few Zombicide Black Plague survivors with bent swords and it fixed them up nicely.
I think one of the best gateway wargames games is Planet 28, its simple, free and you can use toy soldiers as models. It was my first skirmish wargame and I started with toy soldiers, toy castle pieces and an old gaming mat from Heroclix. Its also great for DnD players that want to get into wargaming, since if you want to, you can add really cool story elements and connect your games into a big overarching story. Its just a great game overally and I would recommend it to anyone.
Planet 28 is great. I'll be doing a batrep for it very soon. Thanks for watching!
With so many new miniatures out there, they are also great for using them in other games. Some people use the KStarters to boost their D&D collections. I want to start using these minis for games like Frostgrave or Infinity.
JEGranberg I’m definitely guilty of doing this as a pretty affordable way to get minis for Kings of War, Strange Aeons, and Frostgrave.
Yep for D&D minis were offensively expensive to build up a decent dungeon.... I wanted descent for it.
We just call em "dudes on a map" games. I think that minis started appearing in boardgames to appeal to the American market. Maybe some folks find wooden cubes to be too European. The fact is that the minis are just fluff, good games will stand the test of time because of good gameplay.
I started painting miniatures last year when I decided to paint my copy of Descent 2nd Edition. I'm on the last two characters and have now painted nearly 40 miniatures. I've found I really enjoy painting miniatures and my paint collection has exploded and skills improved quite a bit. I used some of Sorastro's guides on RUclips to help but watched so many of your videos and Sam's now that I'm researching my first 40K army and want to get into the hobby if only for the building and painting aspect of it.
I think you are missing a major market that these boards games target.
Wargamers who love painting miniatures, but no longer wargame.
Because getting you're friends to invest big bucks into warhammer isn't as easy as bringing a fully painted game to them.
Then again I also think you're underestimating the number of people who buy these games to paint. It might not be 50-60%, but it's definitely higher then 5-10%
Mr.Teacher.McC spot on!
I’m a great example. Collect 40K specifically because I love painting the models and love the lore and everything surrounding the universe but I have absolutely no desire to actually play the game and it’s gotten me into looking to collecting other miniatures I like even though I know I’ll never play the game they belong to. Just fills my creative zen. Miniatures are just the perfect size, can display them all without taking up too much space.
I can agree with this. I used to play Warhammer Fantasy battle back in the day but since it was expensive and non of my friends played I stopped.
My favourite thing about wargaming was the painting anyway so all these miniatures based game have really been scratching my painting itch - W
Agree. I have never played 40K but willing to bet I have more orks than most people who do!
I have been collecting orks since 2nd edition 40k... I reckon I might have more orks than yourself
I'm not a wargamer. I follow this channel for painting tips I use for painting my board game minis. Will boardgame minis bring me to wargaming? No, but it's brought me to channels like this to expand my painting skills. So there is definitely some crossover.
The description of the models in today’s board games as soft plastic with terrible detail & bendy spears is somewhat out of date by about 3 years. Mini production quality in mini centric board games has come on in leaps and bounds in recent years.
its definitely better for sure, but when you compare it to GW and other top producers theres still a pretty big gap.
anab0lic We can enjoy something and think it’s really good without it being the absolute best. I kind of think Uncle Atom hasn’t seen enough recent board game minis to realize how good they’ve gotten, especially with the slightly limited examples that he cited. Ultimately, we all have different preferences in our hobbies, and that’s okay.
I have many of the best PVC models from various board games as I've been an avid backer of them on Kickstarter over the past couple of years and they definitely are lacking, so much so that I don't care to even bother painting them most of the time. Bigger models usually come out pretty well but the smaller stuff (like space marine scale) never matches the gorgeous renders you see displayed on their campaign pages unfortunately. It doesn't bother me all that much though, as I'm usually backing these games to explore different game mechanics and get different gameplay experiences, be it multi or solo play, that Wargames don't offer.
@@anab0lic They aren't nearly as bad as you are trying to imply. Sounds like you're a bit of a GW mini snob.
Kingdom death blows Warhammer (not including slot of forgeworld ) out of the water
I am a D&D player/DM... who loves painting minis.... I also like making terrain.
Last year I bought GloomHaven... more of an adventure game similar vein to d&d but it doesn't need a DM and is run with cards.... and has heaps of mini figures.
Now I have discovered FrostGrave.....
ordered and now constructing my own pirates.... (mainly for my current d&d campaign as its pirate themed) but I have been talking to a couple of friends that own all the frostgrave type stuff and have a game board... we will be playing soon... I understand its more of a skirmish game. (they are also war gamers)
A dudes on a map game got me in to painting minis and now I'm getting in to wargaming as well
One of the first board game that I painted when i was young was Hero’s Quest. It came with a lot of minis and I thought the barbarian, wizard, elf and dwarf would look much cooler if they were painted so I got out the old model paints and started painting the heroes. After they were painted and looked much better than just coloured plastic I moved on to painting the bad guys in the game too. I guess you could say that Hero’s Quest was the main reason I got into the war gaming hobby.
Having enjoyed just painted the minis I looked for other things to paint and found out that there were other kinds of games like Hero’s Quest. I know the game does not hold up now a days but I will always have nostalgic memory of the game.
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Hero quest were the first minis I ever painted too. I think I was twelve.
The best thing about heroquest was THE MODELS
Started with Heroquest as well!
Never painted a mini but as a collector I say the best thing about Heroquest is Heroquest. .. I still live inside the dungeon to this time... a special thought on the "mystery manor " mission with the teleporting doors.... there I knew I could make dungeon inside dungeons inside dungeons.
I started reading this comment expecting massive spelling and grammar errors and... was not disappointed.
I have been painting minis for the better part of 3 years at this point, and while I have painted minis for DnD earlier in my life, it is only until now that I have really thrown myself into the hobby. And the game that started all of this was Zombicide. Since then it has gotten me into WWII Wargaming, Fallout Wargaming, Conan The Miniature game, Massive Darkness, AvP....the list goes on. In other words, miniature board games are the fast track to a plastic crack addiction I can think of.
i know of at least 2 of my friends who all the time buy new games just for the minis. Then they plan on using them in other table top games like DnD. (which they actually never do since they realise planning a season is tons of work, but thats beside the point)
Can we just acknowledge the (probably) unnoticed genius of the Title Card sound effects? Been watching for about 7 months (got into 40K in June 2018) and I never mentioned it before, but I really dig the fact that you use era-correct sounds for each of those little slides in the title card: Sword clang for AoS, machinegun fire for the WW2 tanks, and a laser sound for 40K. It's a subtle thing but definitely shows the love put into the title card.
I bought Conan the boardgame from Monolyth about six months. I never considered playing or painting miniatures. Not because I didn´t like them, but because I didn´t knew anybody to play with. But I had so much fun painting the miniatures that I want more. And when people see them all painted and cool they just want to play. So yes. Your theory is right. These miniatures are bringing more people into the gaming community.
Even Heroquest back in the day had loads of miniatures. Then again a lot of boardgames are also secret hidden beginning army deals with a board game attached. Warhammer Quest was a big evil army deal and Gorkamorka was a big 40k Ork army deal, for example. Many other games with a lot of miniatures included are not army deals but they like having a lot of miniatures in there.
Great vid Adam! I'm a strict big box boardgamer and got into your channel years ago because of painting my Imperial Assault. And you're right if you think that doing these big box games could lead to warhammer, etc!
It is definitely a positive thing, it's something that got me from board games into war gaming. I loved games like risk when I was a kid, and I always wanted better looking models. Then I stopped playing for many years until the recent resurgence, when I started to play boardgames with my friends that got more complex and wargame-like with every next one we bought. You get that itch for ever more realistic models (by scale and detail) and ever more realistic gameplay. I still do enjoy some hex based war games though
Ahh, I se grandfather Nurgle has blessed you as well.
for some weird reason this gave me a laugh. thanks
My besty has bought a few large sets just for the minis to use for D&D. If you're starting from zero it's a great way to get a good sized collection, and the quality of the ones he got at least are equal to or better than most of the reaper bones models.
Part of the appeal of board games is the scale. there is no line of sight and such because its not a skirmish its a battle..or its not a battle, its a war. not a war, but the history of a nation across centuries. its a nation and a worldwide conquest, not a single conflict in the woods somewhere. There is often a lot of switching between different scales as well. going from travel on a world map to more localized representation of forces and back again.
also, in so many videos, its really weird how much miniature game youtubers talk about board gamers (who are not mutually exclusive from miniature gamers) as some group that is ripe for conversion to the holy roman church church of minis. its kind of weird and a little creepy. like mini gamers are proselytizing or something...
Well, I’m very interested is getting more people into miniatures, and it seems easier to get board gamers (especially ones who love board games with lots of minis) into it than say, video gamers or fishing enthusiasts or whatnot. Thanks for watching!
I don't know any board game players personally, among who I am a member, that do not currently or who did not formerly, play miniature games or rpgs. But maybe that's confirmation bias beginning in wargames myself
Darrin Knode I check all the boxes you mentioned too. I think I’m fortunate in maintaining a healthy range of somewhat connected hobbies but if there was only one hobby I could have, it would be RPGs.
I think the reasosn why miniatures are in new boardgames is simple:
1. Increases thus total kickstarter amount/popularity for those games both through the increased price per unit and attracting a different crowd (people who like minis).
2. The price of minis manufactured through this method has been going down while quality has been going up (back when I was a kid, minis were in lead and cost minimum $2.50 in 2019 dollars for a 25mm scale mini, detail was very low until Warhammer came out later).
3. boardgaming competes with other forms of entertainment for our attention, namely television and video games. It’s revival is due to providing somethings that those forms cannot, namely community and tactile feel. Miniatures provide the latter in spades, the former usually need some “sweet spot of mediocrity” in gameplay/complexity to sell well and complement the minis. I think over time, as you point out they can “gateway” into miniature wargaming (zombicide or mechs vs. minions) or more difficult boardgaming (“weight” of boardgames like a complex eurogame), or even full blown rpgs (from Gloomhaven).
4. Miniatures have always been with us (especially as Americans) dating to Monopoly is so popular with children (the metal player markers and feel of paper money) to the point of being ingrained/evolutionary. Older people will associate the same attraction of their youth with the Game of Life or Risk, younger people will associate the same with Axis & Allies, which is the progenitor of “ameritrash”). Heck Chess’s attraction/popularity over Go or Batgammon could be attributed to “miniatures.”
Just some thoughts.
I always love your videos, thoughts, and ideas. As for this one, I agree that the boardgame nowadays (especially the ones that was Kickstarted) provided some sort of spectacle and the same therapeutic qualities of organizing, painting, and playing. I've backed my fair share of KS based board games and those were among my main reasons to back too.
But personally, I also think it's about bang for the buck too. In terms of KS based board games, the basic pledge alone offers a lot of things for their "price". This is something retail based games could rarely provide. Especially if it is compared to wargaming. Let's take a Start Collecting IG box for example, for $85 one can only get 11 cadians with a heavy weapon unit and a Leman Russ. In GW and wargaming quality-price ratio and value, that's a major steal. But for board games (especially KS ones) like Rising Sun, one can get around 148 miniatures (80 human size figures, 22 big, detailed monster figures, 7 god figures, etc) for only $150ish, so it's an even bigger, better steal.
And board gamers in general don't really care (or even aware) of the quality of plastic being used. All they (me included) see is 100+ minis for that kind of price.
I also think this has something to do with board games with lots of minis being "gateway products" into the collecting, painting aspects of the hobby for the general public.
So it's not just gameplay-wise, like you said about Zombicide. Board games are seen as a lot less demanding product for people who wants to get into miniature (war)gaming but just don't wanna spend a lot of money for GW products. (Although they secretly still wanna play them). Those board games are (usually) one shot products that won't rotate, won't get eventual codex / manual revisions, and won't experience any kind of power creeps too. So it gives BGamers a sense of ease and comfort knowing that their BGs won't be rendered obsolete within several years.
That's exactly my case. I was always a board gamer and I never considered going in to war gaming (how do you freaks play without a board?). But after I painted miniatures for Wrath of Ashardalon (my first ever painted miniatures) I decided to buy WH40K first strike, mostly because I wanted to paint those miniatures. Now after few months I play war games (WH40K) with my two kids and we all enjoy it.
Hey Adam. I'm exactly the gamer you were talking about at the end of the video. Got back into painting a couple of years ago after a 25 year break by just wanting to spruce up Mansions of Madness (only really because the actual models are pretty bad), moved onto painting Descent, Gloomhaven, Fireteam Zero, Spacehulk and This War of Mine. At the moment I'm now building some terrain hexes for Shadespire having painted 4 warbands, and I recently picked up the Goreblade Warband and some Putrid Blightkings (as a direct result of your videos!) and am giving getting into AoS some serious thought ...............:)
Two of my favourite board games come with painted miniatures, mage knight and Xia. considering delving into the world of miniature painting with my gloomhaven pieces
Have a great weekend guys
you too!
I wonder if Monopoly was the first miniatures board game? I cohabit Board games, RPG and WGs. I'm primarily a WGs painter and player but put Mansions of Madness in front of me and I'll play all day! I even have 1st Ed of Talisman which is cardboard characters. Great tube as usual Uncle A
I miss Talisman, so so many good memories come up when i remember it
@@xr8dmoose135 Yes, many good memories for me, too. And so many characters to choose from! Unfortunately the last 10% of the game, where people were actually making that push to win, was seldom anywhere near as fun as the 90% that came before it. But at least they tried to design an interesting, thematic, variable end to the game, rather than the lazy _"Oh, you got to blah victory points; You win. Pack up time."_
Hope you get well soon! I had to stop buying miniatures. I ended up buying too many starter kits for various games and now I have a ton of painting to do. I'm putting a stop to it for now. At least until I get through painting these guys up and that will be a while because I enjoy painting.
Can you use Citadel and Vallejo paints when painting the softer minis you mentioned? I have ordered, but not yet received, kick starter figures from CMON. Thanks for these videos you produce.
Hey I have a couple figure from cmon and they're hard plastic but I'm not sure if you are getting the same one though
I say it is not meant to be painted because I compare to warhammer miniatures. The Hell Brute, for example, has a detachable part of its hand to reach hard places.
Now, compare it to the Blood Rage Troll with the hammer. If at least the bases were a different part...
The miniatures are a very incisive factor for me personally. I am always looking for a way to expand my mini collection without destroying the wallet.
They can't easily charge £100+ without a bunch of unnecessary miniatures. It's so expensive and so much busy work , it's a whole genre I basically avoid. Usually it's like Scythe: oh it's got miniatures, so it's probably a dry, long, expensive misadvertised money and time sink instead of a good game
I think it's a combination of things. First we are in a board game renaissance. Additionally video game technology has brought with it an emphasis on 3D models, and a wave of people interested in making careers of it. Next is the advancement of CNC technology to cut EDM electrodes of the miniatures, which makes the mold much cheaper to make. And finally we have the natural progression of miniature design artistry. BTW, even though 95% of miniatures never get painted, most people still prefer them over cardboard. Myself, I think cardboard is king. I love modeling, though.
I buy board games just to have tons of miniatures to paint! And then when friends come home, who are not hobbyists, I also have something nice to play!
I got my interest in Warhammer from from painting my War of the Ring by Ares games minis.
How else are you going to even remotely justify $100+ for a board game, unless you cram a bunch of (usually) crappy mini's in it?
This was my thought as well. I mean, why sell a board game when you sell people a board game AND some plastic to go along with it?
I fully agree with you, but some board games - CMON ones (Rising Sun, Blood Rage, Death May Die) have minis in the same quality than GW ones, agree on the softness of the plastic, but its extremely easy to fix with hot water (bendings). Am a painter and i can tell you quality is in some instances just the same. Take care and please more content :)
Im a long time gamer who kind of drifted away from gaming due to life getting in the way combined with Lazyness and video games scratching that itch without any effort required. I still kept all my minis painted or not boxed away. Every now and then i look at them and wish life would go back to a time where i had time and effort to get back to tounament level play again, but its been 19 years and the hobbylandscape is unrecognizable to me. Id love to find a way back in.
I’d tell you to look into Warhammer Underworlds. Very few miniatures, and it has a competitive scene, too. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the tip. These new boardgame hybridizations confuse me to look at. And i was a 2nd edition player complexity and decks of psy cards was our poison of choice.
15 years off for me. I got the itch by going to a new game store looking for board games. I saw how far minis had improved since the late 90's early 2000 Warhammer Fantasy and started rummaging through my closet to find old, dusty and broken dwarves and elves. I stripped and painted some up and spent some time contemplating what I want to do. I've decided on Warcry for now, and maybe Bolt Action to follow. Looking at my mostly unpainted Warhammer Armies, i have no desire to collect expensive plastic again, only to let it end up bare in a closet. Everything I buy is getting painted, and that means it needs to be small and achievable for an adult lifestyle. I'm also much more conscious about where my money goes these days, so I'd rather have 5 different warbands with unique aesthetics and play-styles than 1 army for the same price.
I was heavily interested in Kill Team, but a lot of people say the rules make it a jankier version of 40k and I dislike that I'm likely to have to buy several boxes ($100s) in order to field competent squads. Warcry seems like a one box, one squad solution for $30-45 a pop.
I think you did some good analysis on the “whys”... now I will admit, getting back into board games like axis and allies and then Star Wars Rebellion, definitely acted as a gateway to getting into tabletop war gaming for me and some of my friends!
As a boardgamers and not a miniatures gamer, I would agree that I would always prefer pre-painted minis. Cause I can’t paint them myself. Crappy pre-painted looks better than no paint at all.
There have been a few games that do require assembly and that is a big block for people coming from that hobby to this one. Shadows of Brimstone and Kingdom Death Monster did require assembly and I swore off of them until I started digging into this one. It seemed like way too much work to have to assemble an entire game before I could play. As a board gamer, I wanted to open up the box, read some rules and jump in. Age of Sigmar is hands down the game I put the most effort into actually doing these things before playing. I have 1500 points of Stormcast painted and working on a 1500 point Nighthaunt force now as well. I will be taking them both to 2000 soon but it has been a lot of work but also very enjoyable and rewarding. It sucks a bit that it took me so long to discover that.
It is also MUCH easier to differentiate the different types of units when you have minis vs chips/tokens.
+The power of the unit often also mirrored with it's size. Therefore you can evaluate the situation with a simple glance on the board.
I started painting the board game minis from sword and sorcery, and that lead me to painting tutorials for Warhammer models. Now I’m painting death guard marines, and I’ve found a new hobby with Warhammer. It’s...awesome 😆.
I believe the primary reason is the apparent low cost of soft plastic miniatures, which appears to be a relatively recent development. Visual appeal has always been important to the majority of board gamers, and the only reason miniatures weren't widely used in the past for game pieces, was the production cost, rather than practical or aesthetic concerns. Just because a board game utilizes miniatures, doesn't make it a miniature game in my opinion, and often doesn't make the game a suitable gateway to miniature gaming either.
Kickstarter is also a huge factor, as miniatures are frequently employed to make board games stand out.
Not feeling well, and a pa-chow right outta the gates!
Uncle Adam for President!
Winter storm warning here in Columbus OH tomorrow; I have the weekend off (rare), and I'm going to paint Blood Red Skies and catch up on Uncle Adam vids!
Any chance you could do a video covering how to combat 'hobby burnout or fatigue'? Love the channel and thanks for the great videos :) May the dice forever roll in your favour
A typical board gamer will judge war gaming as shallow and wide - where board games are deep but narrow.
If you take the lore into account and care for that stuff, you might be able to compensate a little. That's how I've seen board gamers go to war gaming at least, you need to get them hooked on the lore.
you guys always talk about us like we dont also play minis games. the fact of the matter is that both board games and miniature games are picking up some of the best parts of both worlds and forming hybrid products now.
meh, I dont really care much about lore I just choose war game systems that are not in anyway shallow, Malifaux, Guildball, Infinity, warmahordes etc etc.
@@anab0lic warhammer
Shallow? I don't really play board games nor war games, but at least from concept (armies of many units, tons of factions, tons of choices) war games don't really seem shallow.
@@A_B_1917 They oftentimes are. While having lots of stuff on the table in Warhammer (just as an example) that doesn't mean you as the player have a lot of choices and planning available to you. The strength in those games (from my limited experience at least) comes from preparing your armies beforehand and then just "dice it out on the battlefield" to see which army composition was better.
Hello, Uncle Atom. Some thoughts here. I am currently working on Blood Rage miniatures and it is obvious it is highly detailed but also never intented to be painted. Some miniatures have impossible to reach spots. And I really believe this is true. The manufacturer does not consider that miniatures painted. However, it is important having highly detailed miniatures in the game because it increases the value idea of the game as a product. Having cool miniatures displayed on a picture at the back of the box helping showing how elaborated the game is a product, increasing the interest on the game and justifying its higher price.
Considering that the Blood Rage minis were designed by Studio McVey, they were definitely designed to be painted. There are some beautiful examples of painted ones out there. Which ones are you having trouble with?
(Just played a game yesterday and was reminded that I really need to paint at least some of them, so far I only have the Ice Giant somewhat done. I actually backed the project originally just to get those georgeous McVey models.)
Didn't it start at CMON? Or really "took off" with CDON board games? That mini painters bought board games just for the minis and once board game makers caught onto this, they made sure that was a reason to buy the board game; "it has great minis"?
Some board games this is 100% true, like Kingdom Death: Monster. The minis are far better than the board game, but the level needed to paint them is much, much higher than say a Zombicide game.
I hear people say the same about the/one of the Conan games. I've heard many times people buy a board games, just to get a lot of minis cheap, especially when it's on sale or used, to use them in other games, like P&P RPG's.
I really hope no one buys KD:M and starts first time mini painting at that level; Thy Will Fail.
I'm in this boat. I buy, usually second hand, miniature heavy board games to have a lot of model to paint at an affordable price. GW's price point will keep a lot of people from ever migrating over. Their prices are just stupid.
That being said, I typically only buy board games i'm actually interested in playing as well.
KD:M is an amazing game, what are you talking about? The quality is not just in the minis.
what I have started to do for budget issues is buy some cheaper games with less miniatures and buying pathfinder and D&D miniatures that can be used for several games. This also helps with space issues. For example I bought Folklore the Affliction non miniatures version and used these other minis.
The plastic that is used is mainly PVC, and they are many times multipart plastics assembled and glued in China. (the moulds for the plastic are created in China, injection moulded there and assembled and glued there..) I’ve been shown that by a Chinese company I approached to assist me with production of my board game.
just a funny fact
it takes me very long to get my army done (well, still havent finished my 500pt), cause I sculpt most of my miniatures (new weapons, heads, tails, body parts. I keep some original parts in most cases, still that takes a lot of time)
Still I wanted to have a few test games to get the rules, to see how it all works and to try my lists. So I played a few games with coins and other small tokens to represent units.
And as uncle Atom said - absolutely playable, but as enjoyable.
Well done busting out a sick pachow instead of a big messy PACHOO!
It's the Kickstarter effect. You need the visual spectacle to sell the campaign. Rules and mechanics are just not sexy enough - or rather not easily translatable - during a crowdfunding campaign.
Hi Love your videos so many good topics you talk about
On a side note I love the bitz stores on ebay. You can sometimes get some really inexpensive minis from the Warhammer lots if you get lucky. I have a bunch of those familiar minis from the silver tower set. One of these days I am going to get suckered into playing a wargame.
As an avid Board gamer looking in. Tabletop war gaming looks great but it’s very intimidating to start. I don’t have the extra time required to build and paint big armies. It’s really two hobbies and I think a lot of board gamers may be on board for the game but not for the other half. I think these new games that are more accessible to board gamers is a good step in the right direction. I do want to try a squad based game to try it out. Any suggestions and the best one to try out?
I've been on a board game buying kick lately, just for the miniatures. By judiciously buying on clearance or other deals you can easily collect a nice set of 28 to 32 mm miniatures for a buck a piece. Not bad at all.
I think a sort of stigma has developed in the board gaming world over the last few years when it comes to components. Simple plastic or wooden cubes are often considered to be not good enough now.
That's such an American exchange. 'hey I'd like to paint these so I can improve' 'thanks that's great' 'now you have to guide me something in return'
I never hear of that sort of thing in Europe. It's interesting to me
Being a Nurgle player, I feel that you having some of his blessing only enhanced the video. For the sake of all others and yourself as well, get well soon (if you haven’t already)
i think its more the fact that the plastic minis help with emersion specially if you play a game like D&D (or any role playing game). minis are waaaay cool and if the board game doesnt suit your tasteyou got some cool ones you can use else where specially if you play WH franchised games
These are good days for folks like me who are looking for cheap miniatures for tabletop RPGs! So many board games like RuneWars have excellent miniatures that fit in well with D&D minis.
I think the whole revival of "analogue gaming" (is that a good descriotion of any game tabletop, rpg, board game and wargaming?) Is great and many of us cross genres and in that sense the development towards better minis regardless of rulesystem is fantastic news. I always look for cool boardgame minis that can double uo and be used in wargaming. Does anyone else do the same?
The worst thing about a lot of these games, unless they get a really big publisher (particularly the kickstarters) is that usually they only get one print run so the only community for them is early adopters. And a lot of the kickstarters succumb to the Games Workshop boxed game thing of wargamers just buying them for the minis.
You mentioned CMON... have you checked out the quality and material of the minus for their game, "A Song of Ice and Fire". Very hard plastic with straight swords!
You’re right, but that’s an actual minis game, not a board game. That’s why the minis are better. Thanks for watching!
Yeah, I guess you're right about it being a "minis" game. I'm a board gamer, and it was advertised to us board gamers, and I bought it mostly for it's theme and that I own a few other CMON boardgames... so I never considered it a "minis" game.
Probably explains why my initial reaction was, "What's this about moving a *tray*?" I followed-up that thought by commenting to myself that an "X" number of minis sitting on a tray is no different than using cardboard chits with differing printed strength stats as found in normal wargames. (Except one method requires a LOT more space than the other)!
@@tabletopminions But even their boardgames such as The Others have amazing quality miniatures, and so does Mythic/Monolith and their Mythic Battles Games. They have amazing detail and are really high quality. Boardgames have much MUCH higher quality than you give credit for. Your video is years out of date.
In a market with a finite limited amount of players, and more and more games coming out, you need to make the games stand out more to get people to buy them. Using my gaming group as an (admittedly extreme) example. We have probably has 150-200 games between us now, so we cover many of the styles and genres of games already. In order for a new game to pique our interest the quality of the components has to stand out these days. Storage solutions, print quality and miniatures are good ways of upping that quality. It's now also much much cheaper to produce those miniatures than it used to be.
With new tech such as 3d printing (professional as opposed to home) the cost of producing the molds, which is usually the biggest cost for miniatures, has come right down. If you check out the cost breakdowns of Monoliths recent Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter the game cost $82 per box to produce. Of that cost it was only $5 per box for the molds and $1.5 for the sculpts. At the same time the printing of cardboard was $20. So it cost less to produce the models than it did the cardboard. Ok it was only 21 miniatures in the box but overall the cost is cheap enough now that the visual gain you get from going from tokens/cardboard characters to full on miniatures is well worth it. Increasing the number of miniatures scales nicely too, so use that mold 5 times in a box and suddenly it's even cheaper per item.... but you get to say you have loads of miniatures and stand out.
These figures come from Monolith themselves and can be found here www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/9g0075/claustrophobia_the_cardboard_costs_more_than_the/
TLDR: In an ever increasingly saturated market boardgames need to stand out, miniatures is one way of doing that and the cost to produce these figures has become low enough that the extra sales outweight the price increase over cheaper components.
PS: Don't post at 1:30am after a 14hr work day... it takes too long to put your thoughts down in a post :)
So much of these boardgames and they are always expensive.
Anyway, true they will get some people slowly towards the hobby. Just because of the thought they have each time they play one : "It would be so cool if they were painted"... (Speaking out of personnal experience ;-) )
i buy lots of the gateway games minis to use in other games lol. Test of Honour? you mean Nippon army. Rising sun? you mean wizards for my Nippon army!
Board games with miniatures are beneficial as I wouldn’t be a war gamer without them. Talisman is not a gateway game. It is as much as gateway game as monopoly. But in 1995 GW released the third edition which used warhammer fantasy miniatures at the time. It is me researching those races I hadn’t heard of such as beastmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarf, Chaos warrior etc etc. That thought me what Warhammer was and turned me into a war gamer. The primary reason I am a war gamer is the painting aspect. Those cheaper 90’s GW plastic miniatures thought me that I love painting.
Honestly the main reason I haven't picked up BSF at the moment is because I don't have the time build them. I still have my Necromunda minis to build...
Because miniatures simply attract more people. Good minis look more bad ass then meeples for example and painted they even look more bad ass. And you can use those minis in some other games as well, like RPG or homebrew and what not. And yes people tend to pay way more for those board games than their actual cost to make.
I can tell you... I did paint my Talisman minis waaay back a few years ago for my boardgame...wasn't much, wasn't "pro"... BUT Now that I've had a few more boardgames with minis, I Do now seek out more info on painting and how to paint them... I'm here now right?
I think you got half the answer there. Yeah, mini manufacture has got cheaper. But also while board game sales may be exploding upwards, the cost of paper, card and wood manufacture has gone through the roof. Yet minis still have a higher perceived value, so including them helps justify the price. One of the best recent examples is Thunderstone Quest. It’s a deck building game that comes with 500+ cards. And also six minis. The minis are utterly superfluous. Not that they could be done with wood instead, but you don’t even really a player piece for that game. (They are technically used but until you have goldfish memory you don’t need them). But reality is, designing and printing 500 cards is massively more costly than 6 minis. But people perceive the minis to be far more valuable then “just card”.
All down to price point. There are some really good options on the market today. Good time to be a gamer.
they are possibly attempting to compete with (or just survive in the face of) computer/console games with better graphics by trying to make them more visually interesting. computer games started out with graphics not much better than those cardboard cutouts from games like civilization or ASL, but now obviously they are on a whole other level and its understandably hard for board games to compete and remain financially affordable for casual gamers.
Started painting zombicide black plague/green horde/horde box with zombicide invader on the way..Going to bathing in minis. Watched your video on hording too late. Haha lots to practice i guess.
I have a hard time playing board games that don't have minis. Little painted squares and things that look like pawns just don't do it for me. And it's fun to have something more to paint, even if it involves speed painting.
I welcome the landslide of mini's
As a long time historical wargamer, and when I say wargamer, I mean Avalon Hill, SPI, GMT, et cetera, who switched over to tabletop wargaming a few years ago, I think it's ironic that you refer to tabletop wargaming...as wargaming...and to historical wargaming, GMT games, et cetera, as board games with "chips". Those board wargamer guys (grognards, if you will), considered themselves wargamers, and often looked at tabletop miniature gaming, especially years ago, as a simplified, archaic ancestor of "modern (board) wargaming". Now that genre of wargaming is fading and perceptions have flipped.
This is an example of how putting things in categories, while sometimes useful (e.g., so that people who say they 'like to read military science fiction' can be pointed at David Weber) can lead to endless quibbling, perhaps with no practical use, in the border cases. Some random thoughts follow:
Consider the Your Move Games "Battleground" card game system (soon to be rebooted), which is in every respect a miniatures wargame with flat cards replacing trays of miniatures. Far cheaper than miniatures, and requiring a bit less table space. The game is the same - indeed looking up the old Chainmail rules, I see many similarities - but you will rarely see it hitting the table at a game convention, because it doesn't have miniatures. Or because boardgamers don't know what to make of it at all, with its rather complicated rules for engaging the enemy.
Is a game that is regulated on a grid instead of free-moving on a map still a miniatures wargame, or is it just a regular boardgame with cool components? I am thinking of the late lamented HeroScape game from Hasbro, which had line of sight based on physical sighting, but was regulated on a hex map.
The recent 'Song of Ice and Fire' miniatures game from CMON has been actively discussed on its boardgamegeek forum in a way that other games of the genre have not been, seemingly because it has more 'boardgamish' rules than other such games, whatever that means. If you are looking for a gateway game to bring boardgamers into miniatures gaming, this may be the one.
Certainly the Avalon Hill/SPI/GMT games have long used miniatures-like (i.e., physically based) concepts such as line of sight (probably starting with PanzerBlitz?) even though the pieces are just cardboard counters.
For years, a local convention had a regular event featuring a big-table implementation of Avalon Hill's 'Circus Maximus' chariot-racing boardgame, complete with miniature chariots driving on a mammoth track. It was considered a 'miniatures' event, even though it was just a big ol' boardgame (with discrete spaces on the track) with cool pieces.
Consider Risk. Is it more a 'wargame/miniatures' game when the original little cubies were replaced by cheap little plastic soldiers?
As a minor point, 'area control' games include Euro-type games in which separate areas are controlled by simple numerical superiority, e.g., by adding counters on your turn. Jim Dunnigan's 'Origins of Word War II' game, from Avalon Hill, is an early example of this; but even a game like 'World's Fair 1893', whose map is purely schematic, falls into this category. Replacing the counters with miniatures would rarely add much to such games.
And of course, tastes differ. You may find painting minis relieves stress; with my unsteady hands and less than sharp vision, I find it quite stressful indeed.
Dungeons & Dragons was my gateway game. It introduced me to painting minis and building terrain...I switched to 40k because I wanted to work with more models and getting 5 people together in my playgroup was frustrating.
Gateway games are not necessarily directed towards miniatures wargaming. Gateway games are simply a bridge between simple boardgames and heavier games.
You had previously mentioned Blood Bowl as a gateway game. Wouldn't it really be closer in category of these board games you're talking about? It's played on a grid and the rules have almost nothing in common with a wargame. Do you still consider it a gateway game?
I definitely consider myself the board gaming type and unless recently, I basically avoided anything near to wargaming. All the handling of rulers or other templates, countless dice chucking and what feels like 80% looking over the stats of your army instead of interacting with other players (aside from the battlefield). It looked so boring and I couldn't comprehend why anyone would do this more often. Well, I had a similar view on boardgames with tons of miniatures as well; I thought most publishers only added them so they could up the price and they wouldn't add to the game really. Partially, I still think this is true for some games (Pandemic Cthulhu for example). But I came to realize that often enough, the threedimensional model gives you a better feeling for the situation and helps creating an ambience (although I think a board game should be able to create an atmosphere without minis). And a figure definitely is easier to recognize for the eye when it has three dimensions instead of two. It just makes playing more accessible I think. It's another step up from "there are 10 round black and white cardboard tokens for each player and they have a number written on them indicating to whom they belong" to "you are the player with the red blips, I take the blue blips". The shape of the miniature does help in this case.
Story goes on: at one point, I had a look into the Conan board game and it seemed absolutely awesome. Played it at the Spiel expo before its release and then at least got the retail version myself (unfortunately I was too late for the kickstarter campaign which had even more content). It's a boardgame without any questions - there are defined spaces the figures can move into by spending movement points, no rulers or anything. You just manage the action points you have for your character and try to beat the scenario. It's a really nice game and it softened my view on miniature games in general. Soon after getting it, I also started painting with acrylics (coming from art studies and watercolors) and yeah, went down that road. Also, more and more games were released that were heavy on the miniature count, so eventually it was hard to avoid them. Now it seems like a common thing and I backed at least one game purely because I thought the minis looked so cool (Hate from CMON). I got into painting because I thought: those grey blops on the board are okay but a bit hard to distinguish. It became a hobby (though I was painting before) and now I usually try to paint new games miniatures before I start playing. It became part of the whole gaming hobby, although technically you could play those games without painting them. But as I mentioned, it also really helps to distinguish between the figures on the board. My aim with painting usually is: you should just let your eye drift over the board and just by recognizing a certain pattern in shape and colors, know which figure is where.
And to close off this awefully long comment: last year I eventually gave in and had a demo game of SFG's Guildball. I really did like Blood Bowl Team Manager (the card game version of BB) and since I felt okay with miniatures for a while now, so I thought I could tackle this business with rulers and templates and letting dice decide whether your striker hits a goal or not. Well, it really got me there and although the whole measuring business feels a little strange, I really love the flexibility with which the figures move over the pitch and act in their ways. It wasn't as hard to get used to as I had imagined and I was pretty much blown away. Even against the odds that I actually really dislike SFG for their behaviour with the dark souls boardgame (not that I'm affected) and how they interact with their customers. Nevertheless, I started buying one or another Guildball team from them, although usually snarling whilst doing so. I think this eventually has lead me to a path that may very well end in me playing more wargames. I have been watching Freebooter's Fate for a while and the wargaming aspect always bothered me until late. But I really like the theme and probably I'll get me a team of pirates and I think that's when I'll finally be stuck in this swamp of wargaming. Left to say: you don't have to be one or the other, you can do wargaming and boardgaming and don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Depending on your co-players, they might add up quite nicely. Sometimes I get the feel that some people think you have to be one or the other. You don't. Have a look at the other world, it's nice as well.
Not sure if you're aware of this but the CC in the beginning says, "... depends on what you threshold for dick is." Had a good laugh lol.
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I have been noticing the same trend and I think its great, the others 7 sins gave me so much to add to my chaos army and to use as NPC's for our Dark Heresy RPG's
People that plays historical counter based war simulations consider themselves wargamers. They usually refer to 40k or warmachine as miniature wargames. Is Star wars Armada a miniature wargame or a fancy board game with miniatures?
Because it just figures. But seriously, its about visuals. The folks who play games like Magic are metagamers who enjoy calculating to the nith degree combinations and methods to win. Maybe they like the pretty art on the cards, but that is secondary to why they play. Then you have gamers like me who enjoy the cinematic pageantry of seeing the game play out like a battle scene in a movie, who care little about counting the odds, and just want to wade in like Leroy. For me, I like showing off my painted miniatures, to compensate for my poor game play.
I'm going to guess ahead of time, it all boils down to one thing: 3D printing...
Cost of manufacture was always the blocker for including cool minis in games.
Going frmo small cardboard tokens to plastic models is like going from PS one to PS3 or PS4.
It doesnt HAVE to make the game better, but a pretty boardgame gets played more often.