Annoying and neurotic grandma is one thing. This sentiment concerns me when it is parents who carry narcissistic tendencies, pitting children against parents, causing chaos in their child’s marriage. An ordained Buddhist monk told me years ago when I was heartbroken having to chose my mental & physical health over being around my mother, “ Even bodhisattvas have boundaries” I wailed with grief and then a calm came over me. The ambiguous grief will probably not dissipate but that is the wounds of the legacy I carry and stop so the next generation can be free.
Hopefully your adult kids won't cut you off for being even a bit imperfect. The odds are high that you will be cut off, too. Just a sniff of "toxic behavior" (any imperfect behavior in the 18 yrs of raising children), and you may find yourself ghosted and stammering.
@@a.w.3772 "not perfect not perfect!11" the cry of the abuser. and don't worry, no one ever mistook you for perfect. EVER. hahaha. now stop whining and go improve your character, sweetheart. lol
The abuse I’ve endured from a young child carried on into my late 50’s and only when I totally cut off my primary abuser, my mother - did i begin to heal and get a new life. In cutting her off I lost all three adult siblings which I knew would happen if I ever cut her off. They all were abused as well, but just tolerated it and suffered. My oldest brother died three years ago - he never could disconnect from it all. I’m the only one who has.
yes, my only brother cut me off for a couple of years and even now that he has heard my side he is very cool with me and blames me for the estrangement. I should have just respected my mother's right to be horrible to me. I realise now it can never be resolved because unless I can submit to the narrative that my mother is the perfect victim and I'm the mad bad crazy demon, then no ''progress'' will be made from my mum's side either. she is angry with me (for standing up to her). Even though I am middle aged we can neverr have and adult to adult dynamic. She just cannot do that.
When u love yourself u will understand why they are the way they are! The pathology of the family unit! Is important to understand that we r here on earth to Learn how to love! I love my mother very much! We have had a hard time thru out the yrs! Now have been very close for the past 25 yrs! She is 80 I am 60! Just let it all go and love them the best way u know how is always the best way in my opinion!
I cried a lot during this video. Actually tears of joy that what I did with my mother, who severely hurt me through her behavior, was about the best I could have done. I distanced her in many necessary ways, but long before she died we bonded so deeply and she realized and apologized and I forgave her from my heart. Still, the hurt that was created as a child, I still have to heal from. But as far as my actions as an adult, I’m grateful that I loved her enough to heal together. Until this video, I never fully appreciated myself for how I did it.
Wow, incredible. I'm too frightened to go near my mother to attempt reconciliation. My heart is broken. Staying away from the while family has broken me but staying in the toxic system was mental suicide.
@@ellyk8834what a revolting victim blaming comment. Entitled. Need to get therapy, travel more & get out of the Anglosphere to the 90% of the world where this yank social contagion isn’t a thing. For goodness sake 🤦🏼♀️😂
I was “divorced” if you will by my three grown daughters on my 70th birthday. I was a good mom and they good kids. No drugs alcohol physical or sexual abuse etc. they have PhDs now and powerful careers. The father was emotionally unavailable. It’s been 7 years with no response from them to overtures. This is the first communication I have ever seen. It is very helpful and I appreciate it very much. The acceptance is the key I believe and I will be able to work with that now thanks to your words. I be.I eve it will make a beneficial difference in my life. I’m sure I made mistakes likely many from ignorance and a blind spot. I’ve lived IN this now for 7 years and think this may help me move on a bit! Much gratitude!
I'd imagine that they told you why if you knew they were all ' divorcing ' you on your 70th ? Children dont just walk away from those crucial bonds......all the parents who make comments on estrangement vids conveniently leave out the reasons why their child estranged from them.
@@vivdoolan6846 yes, it's interesting, I have tried to communicate to my mother how she upset me but she just will not hear it and has told everybody that my abuse of her makes no sense. In fact, It makes perfect sense. I need to protect myself because she will not hear me. I'm not a real person to her. I'm the part she wrote. I must apparently respect her right to dismiss my perspective because it literally doesn't exist to her. So I do wonder what she would write on a website like this. But saying that, I know she's suffering in her own way and it's all so unnecessary.
i am a therapist , daughter and mother and grandmother . My mother divorced ME with no explanation and i wasnt even told about her death a few yesrs ago . My daughter is on the verge of shutting me out now . Even though i am a therapist i still struggle to understand why . Its actually very posible to be shut out without an explanation and without enough chance to change behavious and been given several chances to do so . I HOPE really hope , Your daughters have given you real explanations to their actions . Ones you can digest and understand . Living with the "unfinished loops " inside of not knowing why makes the grief tormenting . My heart goes out to you . Its so painful .
@@beccywilson1349 your response is so compassionate, and I respect that. I feel for everyone in these situations, even the parents whom have been estranged for valid reasons yet remain stuck in their perspectives. It’s sad all around, the loss experienced, no matter whom or what brought it about. I wish everyone peace, healing, closure, self awareness…
When your child tells you there is a major problem, dont ignore them because you dont like what is being said. Knowledge is power. In sharing with you , they are giving you the EXACT information needed to make the changes to keep the relationship. This is GOLDEN information, ignore it at your peril. Too many parents ignore their children hoping the 'problem' will go away, but in ignoring, which is a toxic form of communication, the relationship is completely destroyed instead. So yes, the problem goes away, but so does your child. This is not the outcome you want, For those parents who are NOT told what the issues are , that's obviously more difficult but so many parents are told and will just close off their hearing and the result is the total erasure of their child and the destruction of the relationship. No one wins in these situations...so if you have been told, chuck your ego to the side and really listen hard to your child. All they want is acknowledgement .... they know you may not be able to put right historic issues , but the art of listening, acknowledging and allowing space for the childs pain is massively important to keep your relationships alive. Sometimes just being heard and acknowledged is enough. Closing it all down because you can't bear to hear the grievances will result in you feeling way way worse in the end because they will leave you. So then not only will you have shame and guilt to contend with , you will have unbearable grief too. Accountability and knowledge is the key.
I get that there are a lot of children who feel the need to distance themselves from their parents, especially mothers, who are often targeted for adult children’s pathologies, even though it’s not only mothers who are involved in forming a child’s personality, but there are parents who need to distance themselves from their abusive children who feel they have a right to be abusive to their parents. There are many children, especially in these days and ages, who feel entitled to their parents time and money long into adulthood but they are unwilling to give it back
What is clear in my clinical practice of 30 years is that many times the parental abuse especially emotional and psychological continues into adulthood and may get worse. So not to cover this situation seems important since it is common that the parental abuse continues through into adulthood.
I can totally attest to this. My father would show up at my house that I owned and just start screaming at me because I had not shoveled my driveway or had leaves in my yard, you name it, even though I was 100% self supporting and on my own for 20 years.
My Family Scapegoat Abuse continued til I cut them off... late 20s w/ my father (I went no contact when he refused to go back to therapy for him and I, it was 2 appts maybe 3 he went to, w/ a huge chip on his shoulder - ironic since they used a psychiatrist to gaslight me about their abuse for 2 yrs & I had to sit for several more yrs w/ 4 "family therapy"- that I was the only kid in the family required to attend) & late 30s w/ my mother. When I was an adult, so too large to physically throw in my room & lock me in, & terrorize me physically, sometimes w/ her belt, she used the same skills she honed on my father when siccing him on me for physical punishment to change the subject between them from her inability to parent or keep a home even semi- competently, to manipulate cops (turns out not hard to do, who knew) w/ fabricated stories accusing ME of physical abuse, or of threatening myself (Didnt, tho she didnoften & was involuntarily hospitalized, sometimes for weeks or months) using her best waif/ victim persona (she has BPD, & traits of avoidant & dependent PD as well) & as a result I got arrested once (fortunately charges eventually dropped but my days in jail were absolutely hellish) & TWICE taken in for "my own safety" for a 72 hr hold, in a disgusting, scary hellhole of a county mental health facility. Abusers will abuse you until they can not do so anymore.
I’d like to hear more about estrangement between adult siblings following the death of a parent. Rick gave this a “nod,” can you expand in another episode?
Frank I echo this request, My dad died a year ago and I recognise as this second loss has increased fault lines in my family, really found this podcast useful and yet feel more conscious of two of my 5 siblings distanced, my dads complexity in relationship overstepping boundaries has a part in this…..immersed in working this awareness ……thank you for naming this too 🤔🌻
I expect a lot of sibling problems are caused by the parents. My sibling and I have been senior citizens for several years, and even after the death of our parents, she wanted to see me as the rival who should do whatever she wanted with little to no consideration for my needs. Do I need to say that this sibling was the "favorite"? But didn't feel like it! I never got a rational explanation for the pouting, the sudden rages, and the resentments, just found myself walking on eggshells, never knowing when Dr. Jekyl would suddenly morph into Mr. Hyde and act out. It felt as bad as if I was being hit in the face without warning! Extreme control issues. Never phoned, only emailed to control the conversation completely, yet we live only a couple hours away from each other and neither of us has immediate family and therefore a lack of "time" to interact in a reasonable, healthy way. My sibling also distanced from our parent when Dad was younger, but as he got old and my sibling had even more power, there was all the time in the world for Dad! Very ill situation arising from a very sick and dysfunctional family going back at least three generations.
@@moxiepooties6363 I relate to this so much. My sibling was the golden child and we now have very little contact. My mother pitted us against each other. We also have a stepparent who has shut us out us since my father fell ill.
I loved my father, who had a very hard life in many ways. But when he died and I finished the estate business, sent my sibling their last checks and wrapped things up, it was like getting paroled. My wife and I quietly left and cut off all contact with not just my siblings, but my entire family. All because of the awful, abusive behaviour my siblings exhibit. Sister: Borderline Personality Disorder, a serial physical abuser, Older Brother: Jealous, bitter, resentful, disagreeable a-hole. It's been 24 years, and to quote my wife "We've never missed them once". Here we are today with a very comfortable life, a nice home, plenty of money, and most important, peace. I have no doubt if I was to ever open the door to just let a sliver of energy from these people back in, they would make every effort to poison everything. So don't feel bad if you have to fire your family. Sometimes it's the best thing to do.
As a mother of an adult child, I never want to inflict on my own daughter the sense of shame and paralyzing guilt that my own mother inflicted on me. My mother had a core of pain within her that caused her to judge me when I couldn’t live up to her expectations, and I was simply unable to cross the line and discuss with her the impact it had on me. I looked after her and cared for her until she was 94. For a few years we lived together. We split because I knew that if we didn’t, I was either going to kill her or kill myself! The split was painful, especially for her, and she said some outrageous things. But we got over it and carried on,until she passed away some five years ago,at the age of 94. Now at 76, I am free to assess her style of mothering but a little old to really live my life again. For my own daughter, I am able to assess and reflect on the pain and paralyzing impact my own mother had on me, and I know she doesn’t have to live to please me. We live many miles apart, I understand that her life is hers and mine is mine. I don’t expect her to fix my life, and I am fully aware that her life choices are hers and hers alone. I never wish to transplant the pain my mother my mother inflicted on me ( whether intentionally or not) on my daughter. I made many mistakes when she was growing up which in hindsight I recognize as repeating my own mother’s patterns of child rearing. Self awareness allows me to regret those. Just as I want my daughter to spread her wings, and follow her passions, so I want to follow mine. Love without expectations and judgement is the only bond that matters.
The “when they were younger” part can be an excuse and make it easier to induce guilt or shame in the adult child such as “that happened so long ago, they’re getting old, why can’t you forgive and forget, you only have one parent etc” PLEASE note a lot of estrangement started with gray rocking, measured contact, maybe parent child therapy to no avail.
Yup being told by my narc mother in relation to the physical abuse I experienced as a child 'oh just forget about it.' Like I didnt get my favourite sandwich filling one day.
@@vivdoolan6846 Yeah... That is so real to me. Like you beating on my with a wooden spoon or slipper or whatever is like not getting dessert a couple of times... The absolute delusion of these abusers.
I totally pulled away from my father when I was 32. I am now 59 and have no regrets! I saw his anger starting to kick up with my 4 year old son and thought no we aren't doing this again. He also was sexually abusive and I have done a ton of work. When my first x husband (he was 25 years my senior) and my mom died. They both died 3 years ago and since then I've done so much work and it took me all my life to get well.
It's so hard to leave the family relationships. But when they keep hurting you and won't acknowledge or try to change, then it's time to move on and forge a life with healthy people.
This guy the father is a fantastic therapist he’s the one of the best ones I’ve come across online everything he saying it’s just right on he’s polite he’s respectful he gets his point across he always adds the nuance that makes the difference wow I am impressed
Forrest your level of emotional intelligence and self awareness is incredible. Obviously this is in your own right but I cant help seeing your very wise and super in tune father and seeing where you got that EI foundation from and then developing it in your own right. The way you have dealt with this extremely difficult subject was so sensitive and considered I applaud you both hugely for helping those who are experiencing such pain.....
Disagree, his opinionated pontifications interfered with getting important evidence based information from a consummate profession with decades of experience & expertise. Interviewers who want free therapy on Utube from a professional should be making that very clear in the heading so others can not waste their time & feel defrauded.
My 35 year old daughter ghosted me for 41/2 years. I wrote to her and told her that I respected her boundaries and that I love her unconditionally and nothing that she could ever do would make me love her any more or any less. And I just let go. I reminded myself daily that this situation is providing me with the opportunity to practice unconditional love. And I waited for a long time. Finally she contacted me. We didn't talk about the past. We just started at today.
I’m from a family of 5. Our ‘control freak’ mother passed in 1976; we all attended her funeral. Dad the ‘belitter’ passed in 2002 & we all attended his funeral. There was NO TIME in the years between in which we all gathered. I attempted 3 ‘family reunions’ & the 2 brothers didn’t show. My siblings continued the ‘control freak’ mentality & parental style of our parents. There simply came a point where it was too triggering to observe/intervene. As the FIXER, I realized I had to let go of the toxicity. Have not been in any contact for ~ 15 years & the peace has outweighed any estrangement grief. FWIW: About 2 years after Mom’s death, one sister told me to keep in contact with mom’s sisters “because they don’t have any children & when they die, they’ll have to leave their money to someone”. I was aghast & let her know how morally reprehensible I thought that was. She could never/will never understand that control is NOT love. Decades later she & her husband ‘visited’ (used our home as a place to stay) for a wedding. The next morning, she tried to tell me how MY WILL should be written for her children’s benefit. “That’s not going to happen” was met with rage & the proverbial narcissistic discard. 🤷🏻♀️
I think the 2 of you are Excellent..!!! I am also a Lic. Psychologist in 3 states. I SO appreciate that your video gives all sides of estrangement in families and does NOT make the mistake of siding with the Adult child and assuming that it is the narcissism of of both or one parent that has caused this problem like so many therapists are doing lately.
This podcast definitely leans in favor of the adult child. The father therapist meekly advocates for estranged parents, while the son therapist overtly and rather dominantly and often smugly advocates for the adult children. This dynamic left me with the sense that the therapist son likely has a significant percentage of his client base (income $$$) as adult kids who've estranged. This was not an equally yoked delivery. The smugness of the young, Millennial therapist (who has no children of his own) was off-putting.
This IS a poignant topic. When the parents are narcissistic and abusive across all boundaries, and deny any accountability, there can be only one choice. In a situation like this, getting an inheritance as an element of the decision to cut off is a deeply and personally compromising consideration. When your dignity and healing hinge on a cut-off, money means nothing! I wish you had brought severe narcissistic abuse overtly into the conversation, because it is a hugely common dynamic. Thank you for the content and this video!
I told my mom numerous times that she didn’t have to apologize for the past at all. (Her own unacknowledged mental illness caused her to emotionally torture, parentify and isolate me during childhood.) I just needed her to stop the insulting, day long rants against me at every single holiday and stop causing family drama with her lies (that she would proudly admit to). She said that I had to learn to deal with it and accept her for what she was because she didn’t have to change. I suffer debilitating chronic illnesses both mental and physical. She knows that. But, she continues to tell people that she has no idea why I won’t interact with her. She encouraged my sister to be a prostitute, my nephew to sell drugs out of her house and the final straw for me is that she tried to trick my other sister into driving a car full of drugs so that my nephew wouldn’t be arrested but the law-biding, municipal employee sister would be arrested instead. But people still take my mom’s side against us, knowing the insanity that goes on. I’m estranged from almost all of them now and have never felt better. I hate the assumption that I (or any adult child in a similar boat) am to blame for the estrangement. My husband and I have been on police watch lists because of this woman’s craziness. There is just no way to interact with those people!
Sonje, just do your best to take care of yourself and live the life YOU want. There are crazy, bad, mean-spirited people that LOVE the drama and enjoy other's pain. Sometimes they are your own family, the cruelest betrayal of all. If you've done all that you're capable of doing, and giving, then let them go. They will be free to continue, just NOT with you. And you can have a life of dreams and kindness and love that they will NEVER have. Be blessed and know that you are beautiful.
OHMYGOSH!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO! You have eased, lifted, validated and confirmed me. I became estranged from my brothers a year ago. I have struggled with guilt and grief. It is a toxic situation for me. I know there will be no apology or change of behavior, and just last week myself moved into a place of functional forgiveness. Thank you so much. I feel so much better.
Such an extremely complex and delicate reality this estrangement within family systems. I am at the point where I have decided, chosen, not to deal with it anymore. I have done what I could, what was within my realm of action and actionability....when trying and trying and trying became painful to me, I decided to stop for my own well being. I do feel grief, but I also know that I am not able to keep doing at this moment in time-that feeling may change, I may have energy to keep trying...but right now, the energy I have is for me.
This was very helpful. Your knowledge and compassion shine through. My sibling and I have had a terrible falling out - he has bulldozed through my boundaries over and over. He has proven himself to be an emotionally unsafe person for me. So we are now estranged. I will not be hosting any more holidays at least this year. I bend over backwards to make everyone happy. My mother also whining that my kids don’t shower her with enough attention. Year after year, though they show her respect and show affection in their own style. I can’t fix everyone’s emotional baggage - I’ve truly had enough. Anyway, thank you. I’ll be subbing to your channel.
I imagine your kids will be even more relieved than you- it's confusing AF to be a child dealing with an adult throwing a toddler tantrum, demanding behavior that makes you uncomfortable, worrying you'll upset your parents by not giving in to the needy emotionally immature, self centered adult. I hope if yr kids saw you get upset when that occurred, they knew that it wasn't with them. Yor mother is an emotionally unsafe n for your children.
I’ve stepped away from my parents and family and it’s so painful. I didn’t plan on doing this, I’ve just not been comfortable seeing them and ignoring the elephant in the room. My former spouse/partner was arrested for assault/family violence after many confusing years. The only difference between this “assault” and others was that a neighbor called the police and our teen son was present. So, charges were made, stay away order, defense lawyer, etc. I could not make it stop because our son was present. I did not ask anyone to defend me. I asked my family to not answer calls from my ex-husband or his lawyer. They did not respect my request and answered the phone and questions. They stayed neutral. I didn’t want huge consequences for my ex-husband. I did want acknowledgement and for our son to know that was not acceptable. I feel betrayed by my family and hurt. My sister complained when I gave her as a reference because CPS was involved. They seemed more concerned about his military career than about me. (When this assault happened, we were extremely stressed, and I was so depressed I was not functional.) Anyway, I don’t know that my family is capable of understanding why I feel betrayed. They have not understood most of my life. They are simple people, and friendly people to everyone. It just would have been nice to have them show some concern about me, their daughter.
This was great. You guys are so thoughtful in the way you discuss such things. It really makes the information “go down easy”. After 58 years of life, I have finally come to a place of acceptance that the dysfunctions in my FOO are not at all likely to ever improve, which has freed me in big way. I have not fully cut off contact with anyone but I have distanced myself and have also learned to allow myself to set guilt-free boundaries. What you said about having compassion for those you feel hurt by is so true. I think it actually may have been “necessary” for me to feel fully settled in my decisions around “how” to distance myself without stirring up any additional or unnecessary/useless pain.
My efforts to heal, listen, apologize authentically, get therapy, make amends have not been able to sustain my relationships with my adult children. My mistakes and harms have just been too much. They haven’t directly said they want nothing to do with me. If I stop reaching out 37:56 what’s left is silence. I have to accept that the damage and pain I caused is not able to be compensated for. I do accept that my adult children matter to me way more than I will ever matter to them. I must love and care for and support myself since I will be alone. I must outgrow wanting them to want me in their life, admire or respect me or enjoy me. I’m sure they love me in some way - and want nothing with me. Thank you for helping me accept the whole thing.
That sounds immensely painful. Especially when there are drug addict and violent criminal parents whose kids forgive them and choose to love them, despite horrendous parenting choices. How to not feel hurt and bitter when kids toss their parents in a garbage can is tough.
I walked away from my narcissistic parents last year. They he thing is , I keep hearing parents saying how they know they want perfect and made mistakes but they never will go past that and actually talk about specific trauma. They think making these blanket statement is the same as they taking accountability but if we can’t sit down as two adults and talk about it all without placing blame but just to gain insight in to the other person but instead you quickly point out something I did that hurt you plus gaslight me , then at this point I don’t care if how my walking a say affects you since your goin on into old age, and I won’t harbor any shame or guilt because it’s not about the past anymore it’s about how your refusing to heal us currently because your shame and guilt keeps you manipulating and trying to control me. So I have to walk away because you broke our connection and it’s nothing left for me to give to our relationship. It’s time is up because of your choices
In the same boat , I thought with age and time they'd be different ,honestly I don't know where they get the energy from to be so defensiveness and then flip it its exhausting
Thank goodness You did an episode on this. I detached from my birth giver the week before thanksgiving this past Year. I did years of therapy and healing only to be set back by her again. ❤ I took control and said no more. Now here i am Well said. My mother decided to triangulate immediately with her husband and my half brother. She is one of those reformed women who acts like her past doesn’t exist. It’s infuriating and disgusting. She was a completely different entity with me. Another with my real brother. Then yet again a new one with the last one. She needs so much help its not ok ❤
I’m 51 and have tried to navigate through these issues for a number of years. Early on the biggest problem I felt I had was with my highly narcissistic father and also brother and how to relate to them through adulthood as my father’s health declined and I was busy with my own family responsibilities. I felt a lot of resentment and anger due to the impact childhood neglect and poor parenting etc had on my life growing up. I felt it had led to a range of consequences such as a people-pleasing type personality, lower self esteem low self confidence, less personal success. It also spilt over into relationship dynamics with friendships and later with family on my husband’s side, a number of who were also highly narcissistic, who I found difficult to hold my own with. At times I felt interacting with these people felt intolerable and it created a huge amount of both anxiety and anger in me. My father died suddenly a few years ago so that issue faded somewhat but I still felt a lot of anxiety and anger at other family members like my older brother and some in-laws. Earlier I contemplated going no-contact with various people due to the stress contact created but more lately I have come to the realisation that doing so wouldn’t improve anything, but would instead likely just create alienation from other family members who didn’t understand the dynamic going on. I have tried to bring the issues I had with my father to other’s attention but I found no one really wanted to know. And ‘standing up for myself’ seems just to lead to further alienation. In the end I have concluded a few things that may or may not help others. One is that it is highly unlikely we can ever get a feeling of resolution with other family members via trying to explain our side of the story. These events were in the past and cannot be changed. People can rarely change and highly narcissistic people certainly cannot - its hard for them to even have any real self awareness. They only know how to operate one way - and that is with them at the top of the social hierarchy and everyone else below - particularly if you happen to traditionally occupy that lower rung - they are never going to see you as an equal. They also cannot cope with any disagreement from anyone else. It is a waste of time trying to get your view heard if it differs from theirs - it is much better to remain silent than trying to voice disagreement as they will always go on the attack. It is also highly unlikely that any of the other family members will support attempts to change established patterns of relating. The family enablers will remain family enablers and if you try to rock the boat it will only lead to further alienation. In short - you cannot change others you can only change yourself. Yes it is an option to cut off all contact - and if abuse was /still is severe such as in sexual or physical abuse that may well be warranted. But I concluded that for emotional abuse & neglect it may be better to alter the way we interact with others. Because as we get older it becomes clear that life is short and family is still family despite everybody’s shortcomings. It can feel lonely during older age and feeling excluded from all significant family events such as Xmas, bdays, funerals etc etc - including from family who you may not have had any issue with and who won’t understand what is causing your absence. And I don’t think it will necessarily lead to any real feeling of personal healing as it is more a technique of avoidance than healing. So my own conclusion is simply to continue contact but to lower expectations of the individuals you have had issues with in the past. Know they are likely to say things or act in ways that will be insensitive, critical or rude. But the solution is to see those behaviours as issues they have and not to take them personally or respond to them - ie go ‘grey rock’ during those conversations. Also it is best to not express any dissenting thoughts (from the group) while in the presence of highly narcissistic people as they will immediately attempt to shut you down as they are incapable of ‘agreeing to disagree’ or engaging in any type of calm rational debate - they only value one opinion and that is their own. That is not to say we need to forgo all personal boundaries. These need to remain strong where it counts, but in group situations it is best to just adopt benign neutrality (ie pick your battles). That way you can continue to remain part of the family despite all its disfunction, but you can also have the self awareness and know the techniques to adopt so that you are not damaged from every event and interaction - and do not spend the weeks ahead dreading an event or require weeks afterwards mentally and physically recovering from it.
Flying monkeys may be even worse to explain the situation to than the perpetrator. My experience has been that it has left me with a *yuk* feeling. It's a lonely path. Rather than getting others to empathise, I recommend developing compassion for ourselves. It is the best way of harnessing our personal power. God bless you, if you are dealing with estrangement on any level. ♥️♥️♥️
@@KhanyisileNyembezi-n4k Yes that explains the feeling exactly. 💯 It does feel yuk trying to get the support of flying monkeys because whereas you once saw them as possible support you realise they don’t have your back at all and will side with the perpetrator to uphold the status quo. It is definitely better to work on developing compassion for ourselves rather than seeking healing (empathy & validation) from others within that system. Because we’re not likely to get it!
Decades of psychological and emotional damage can force you to go no contact because it becomes a question of life or death. I had to go no contact and I'm all by myself. My siblings want my share of my deceased father's will which can't be executed until my mother died. I was close to unalive myself and I might end up homeless because I realized about that problem (malignant narcissism) too late but the other option (staying) was already a death sentence.
Hmmm - an example of how there’s no substitute for experience. Forest, I’m glad you can advocate for the adult child doing the estrangement…and you can only be who you are…but it’s hard to hear the clinical “it’s time to face reality” from someone who has never done it. I hope you never feel the loss that I’m experiencing. I feel gutted and confused and achingly sorrowful.
“Gutted, confused and achingly sorrowful”. Me too. I’ve been struggling with the narcissistic mother family dynamics since junior high school. I’ve been Trying to make sense out of my story for a really long time. 60 years later I finally was able to admit that my narcissistic mother created the army and dictated everything…. she was a tiny attractive woman that obviously had no self-esteem but of course I didn’t realize any of this until very very late. Thanks for your few RUclipsrs and Podcasters I have learned and have digested the truth. It’s very lonely out there Gutted, confused and abused.
All examples in this podcast focus on what the parent "did" to merit rejection from an adult child. I wonder about parents who have profound confusion surrounding the "why" behind the rift. Enter the most excruciating scavenger hunt of our lives...Enter shame, paranoia, devastation, worry, fear, catastrophizing, obsessive phone checking, and burning sorrow when there's no text, no missed call. I can't think of anything that has made me feel more unloved or unlovable than my child's rejection. It has rocked my very identity. Thank you Forest's dad for working the parent's devastation into the discussion, albeit quietly. This decision, to estrange, has life-changing ramifications. Personally, it has brought me to my knees. Forrest, the word "narcissism" has been used here about a dozen times. Perhaps a podcast on what that actually is could benefit your listeners. It's a big word and a big diagnosis. It's also an easy way to justify abandoning a parent. I say this with zero knowledge of the situations of your listeners. Food for thought anyway.
@@teriwills5876 OMG, yes. You described my anguish perfectly. It is traumatic and ambiguous grief that has shaken me to my core. There are no words to adequately describe what I, and many other parents, are experiencing. For me, I finally found most of the puzzle pieces but it may be too late. Many of us have been blindsided, causing us to miss opportunities to stop the growth of alienation.
Well said Forrest!!! Brilliant. You DON"T HAVE to forgive anyone to move on and live a happy life. You can understand the difficulties your parents faced, and still have very strong boundaries around what you will tolerate. An issue that is not addressed enough is enmeshment, and where the boundaries lie when your parent is elderly and somewhat dependent, and how to deal with an emotionally unhealthy parent in that situation. Too many people feel responsible for their parents' mental health issues, especially when there's a long history of it in their childhoods. It is a nuanced topic
Forrest, PLEASE do an episode about estrangement between adult siblings! This subject is discussed more than it used to be, but still not nearly enough.
This is the best, most comprehensive, and tender conversation I have heard on this topic.Thank you. There was so much kindness and wisdom here. Very well presented.
You have to deal with your own emotional pain - whether you are the one who cut off contact or not. You can heal and grow so that the other person's behaviour doesn't affect you as much.
Thanks for your perspective. The father , son approach to this subject is interesting and helpful. Our adult son (30s) left the family home 5 months ago. His departure was turbulent and was based on a long time toxic relationship with me (his father). He also is estranged from his two siblings. Apart from the stated toxicity, would add a host of other factors: generational differences; notable sense of entitlement; disrespect; extreme religious influences (his mother and I suspect he has joined a religious cult or an influential religious organization that is guiding many of his life decisions); diagnosed social anxiety disorder; lost his job; and much more. In my uncertain view, his departure has been a much needed break for him as well as for us as parents. The high emotions ranged from anger, disbelief, more anger, to trying to understand what happened, what I/we did wrong as parents. At this moment, we (my wife and I) are at peace, still baffled with his choice to be completely estranged from us and the entire family. My wife struggles with it more heavily, even as his issues are primarily, or perhaps exclusively with me. I had to also realize that I too went through a 30 year estrangement from my father (for many different reasons, I think). We are seeing a family therapist to better comprehend his and our actions. Not easy! Thanks again.
Good to see a balance on this conversation. The older and in my opinion wiser therapist admits that he’s had patients come in and talk about trivialities as to why they want to cut their parents off or have already done so. So, we understand that it doesn’t take much for some people. The idea that the only reason kids do this is because the parent was an alcoholic or terribly abusive is just not always the case. I did not escape my notice, also, that the therapist with many years of experience said that we do live in a highly individualistic, western society and our culture teaches that we are to be happy and anyone who is not bringing us happiness can or should be cut from our lives. This is why this conversation is so incredibly fascinating. It’s fascinating because the amount of incredible damage to a parent is barely acknowledged, while the concern for the health and welfare of the child or the adult child is paramount. I have come across in my lifetime, a parent that was incredibly toxic. I have first-hand knowledge and observation of just miserable this person was in word and in deed. Two words are thrown around a lot these days: toxic and narcissist, The vast majority people are not toxic or narcissistic, but this mother was. It was like she tainted everything she touched. Neither of her adult children talk to her anymore.
Excellent observations! Scant attention was given to the incredible pain parents experience, and also the power dynamic, where adult kids can enjoy the power they now have to keep a grieving parent placid, crying, begging for connection... near suicidally depressed, at times. If the parent sneezes the wrong way, the door is shut in their face again. While the smug, self righteous child walks off, applauded by society and often their own therapist for having "good boundaries." Not all kids, but some.
I so appreciate the fleshing out of the complexities involved in parenting that also affect how the parent child relationship evolves. My family system was dysfunctional growing up with an abusive alcoholic father and emotionally immature unstable mother. I decided I would never use substances and tried to create a child centered “family”. However I didn’t calculate how my CPTSD affected me and my ability to engage emotionally with the challenges my children went through. I chose unsupportive partners which only made everything more challenging. So I provided financially and mothered with intention but unable to overcome all the challenges to create the close family ties I hoped for myself and my children. Confused and overwhelmed for years why not being abusive and addicted was not enough. Intergenerational trauma requires an awareness and healing process that I find is hard to do especially in a family system that won’t accept anything changing and actually punished for trying to heal. 😢
I’m estranged from my abusive narcissistic father and sister who acts just like him. I’m happier becuase i no longer have to fake it and be inauthentic with anyone in my life. I have no guilt anymore about cutting them off. They chose this with their behavior
Unfortunately we cant chose our family however we can chose how as adults we relate....for me due to a toxic parent my siblings repeated the toxicity so I learnt to put in my boundaries and walked away to protect myself psychologically and emotionally.
This is such a relevant and necessary topic to cover. May I add that the Bible has "well-applied, general advice" on this subject, forgiveness being a primary one. Other principles include empathy, humility, selflessness, and honor; all essential to resolve relationship problems.
I'm an only child who has chosen to have zero contact with my parents. I did it once for five years, then got back in touch, then went back to no contact which is how things will remain until the apology Forrest mentioned that would be required for a true reconciliation. That will never come from at least one of my parents. But as to what a parent can do if their child doesn't want contact? Honestly, the single biggest thing they can do is to reach out and ASK WHY they've gone no contact and what it would take to repair. Neither of my parents ever once have done this and I've heard from other family members they either don't know why I went no contact or they're completely mistaken.
My husband is the only child of a single mother who worked every day as a legal secretary to support her son and her mother. She was a difficult woman and often drank to excess. But it was a different era. I was very respectful to her and appreciated all she had done against the insurmountable odds of the time to raise such a fine son. She lived with us for the last six years of her life. She was bedridden and on full oxygen. She did not want to go into a nursing home. Sure it was a big commitment but I was home with 4 teenage children so they were a great help with their grandmother. I am Irish and every household had a grandparent or two. God forbid estranging a grandparent, never heard of it. You mention that you want an apology from your parent . I have learned in my 73 years that people are never satisfied with the apology they get. You are supposed to be smarter than your parents. You have more education than your parents. Why embarrass their ignorance by subjecting them to your idea of a suitable apology. It was hard work with 4 kids and a grandparent but we learned a lot about family and respect for elders. My husband's mother thanked me often and promised me that she would do something special for me in heaven. Listening to podcasts, makes me think that Americans don't want their parents because they don't want to take care of them when they are older.
@@ansh9236 You should work on your reading skills before you judge an entire nation of people and presume to know what they don't want or how they all feel. You seem like someone who may be more comfortable inciting a flame war on Twitter, so I urge you to take your backhanded insults, pointless details, and prejudices there. Most Twitter users' reading comprehension is abysmal so you'll fit right in. Thanks for stopping by.
Thank YOU for the important work you are doing. Those touched by complex/toxic family dynamics deserve clarity and your discussion was very helpful in making that a bit more attainable. I personally loved that you went the higher ground and brought compassion at the forefront of it.
Well, old fashioned manners are seeming more and more important during this time. My Gram, who had super strict manners....she wouldn't talk politics or religion with most people and all of that....she said that we need manners most with our close families instead of "letting down our hair" and all of that. May have been correct.
I would love for you to do a long video about sibling estrangement… and partial estrangement. One sister is completely no contact, the other I talk to occasionally and pretend to be nice, but it is so damn awkward and uncomfortable to pretend that this is OK. It’s so painful!
The differences in the generations in very evident in this conversation. I am a similar age to the son and his perspectives are common amongst my peers. He references "my right", "what I am entitled to" and other peoples "problematic" behaviors etc. The dad keeps trying to reference some concepts that are very foreign to my generation; "duty" and "responsibility". This generation was brought up in a culture of rights without responsibilities. It used to be well understood that one cannot even have rights without responsibilities. One example I think of can be seen in the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Derry. One of the recurrent characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. The teenagers roll their eyes at Uncle Colm and can’t understand why they have to spend time with him. The adults also find him tedious, but nevertheless continue to invite him along to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. The truth is that if Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return. There are many quizzes online advertised as tools for helping you to determine if your parents were abusive or toxic. One profoundly subjective question asks ‘when you make a mistake, do your parents make you feel bad?’ These can lead people to re-narrate their childhood experiences as in fact abusive rather than viewing them as part of the typical ups and downs of life. I believe that these trends have in part contributed to the growing loneliness, anxiety and depression of my generation.
My daughter has estranged from me, as she believes I have anxiety disorder. She demanded I see a psychiatrist before I could meet my first grandchild, so I did. As far as accountability and an apology, I can't give her anything that would ring true. Her father had MS. I ran our family like an army general, worked long hours doing manual labor because it was enough money to keep us out of a Trailor Park and allow for her college aspirations. I was also taking care of elderly parents. I took care of a home, keeping it ready for friends and neighbors to come over. The kids had medical care, dental care, pets and nice clothes and toys. No, I did not have the time at home I wished I could have. Anxiety - you bet, and I'm sure I will carry that the rest of my life. So far, I have not been allowed to see the baby, and she has gone no contact. The baby's first birthday is coming up, and I have gifts, but know they will be tossed away if I send.
There is far more than anxiety going on. I think if you took the time see a professional and took the time to look at reality, you may recognize the emotional abuse that occurred. Your daughter is protecting your grandson. She doesn’t want toys for the baby, she wants you to acknowledge the harm caused and fix it, so her son won’t be harmed the same way she was.
And dealing with estrangement when your siblings are getting older, you sometimes realize you are also dealing with their mental states and personality disorders which presents an even higher hurdle to scale and may well render any possible mutual reconciliation near impossible to achieve.
Another insight on therapy I would like to offer. This is just my opinion based on my observations of others throughout my life who sought out therapy. Therapy rarely works unless their client is fully transparent and willing to reflect on their own behavior. No that doesn't mean they are to blame, it simply means their behavior played a role more than likely, but not necessarily either! Sometimes the other party involved isn't available or willing to come, though a good therapist knows spending every session in validating isn’t progressing to the results of healing. I say this because I’ve known several people and one in particular throughout my life who were in therapy and they became much worse, to the point no one was able to be around them. It became all about “my therapist said this or that” throwing it in her moms face as some kind of power trip that caused everyone at the gathering to not want to be around anymore. When her mom was more than willing to go to her therapist, the daughter refused and stopped going all together. Therapy is more than validation on what you experienced. And the hard work comes in after you’ve said everything there is to say. Forgiveness is a key component to moving forward with or without. It’s not easy, but very rewarding.
I thank you for your videos, I appreciate both of your work and I find them very helpful. I would like to add here that is very hard if not uncompress able to understand if one has not been in the situation, of searching of the substitute of a family or any member of it even you meet people that are proven to be such, is like being born orphan and don't know where you belong and where your roots are, very sad situation but you learn to live with it and accept it as part of the healing.
Estrangement is a tangled, complicated web of emotions and ambiguous losses. Sometimes you can untangle it, sometimes it’s out of your hands. Shikata ga nai.
Another aspect of estrangement that plays off of the the grievances from childhood of the adult child who estranged from a parent is a mental health diagnosis and drug addiction. Just as in a normal development, a teenage brain perceives things from the past differently if you add in these two factors, the estranged parent has a whole set of other circumstances to try to deal with. I would like to see an episode that focuses on adult children with mental health issues who estrange their parents. I know it is a much more complicated scenario but few people address those concerns and you two are just the ones to do it.! Specifically, my daughter was treated for borderline personality/bipolar disorder in her teens. As an adult she certainly has many of the main symptoms to a high degree of BPD, and some sort of mood disorder involving depression, but not necessarily bipolar episodes. Her black and white thinking takes over and there is no possibility of a rational discussion. add to the mix a 15-year-old granddaughter who has relied on me for support all her life and who was cut off from me, and later poisoned against me with tHess stories from my daughters childhood. Addressing grandparent grandchild alienation would be wonderful too!
Shirley, I too, have a estranged daughter diagnosed with BPD. It's been almost 7 years now and I feel the loss every day, even hour, every minute. My heart goes out to you
I would love to see an episode on Family Estrangement with child with a mental health diagnosis. It's rough I am saving money to buy a year of BetterHelp counseling and pray she will utilize it.😭
I’d love to see people not blame BPD on children. Where do you think this mental illness comes from? Why do you think drugs are used to cope? Maybe there is alienation from the parents because they refuse to admit their abuse.
No one would alienate their own parents without damn good reason. It doesn’t just happen because they woke up one day and decided that their wonderful, loving, parents were evil. Give me a break.
I am this adult child , my problems were caused by parent speration at 9 years old that never botherd me you can't force love In fact it's not healthy to stay unhappy I get it but it was the way they handled it they hate each other cant be in same room so much conflict there I didn't understand and they'd put me in the middle of there bs I was very confused like I was meant to take a side as a 10 yr old but thats not the main issue my teenge years were a lot of manipulation ,actively being ignored because of jealousy from his new wife , and unpredictable rage from my father and his wifes narcissistic manipulating behavior, so mostly psychological abuse nothing seruously physical but i definitely had moments where I didn't feel safe and in danger from my those who are meant to protect me. To more recent times The first thing my father said when I tried to contact him he said well I don't get it we never hit you , I was just like in my head you don't get it you just don't get it at all I just want to be heard without them turning it around with aggressive defensiveness there egos are to damaged to let that happen , and the way I've copped with that is depression anxiety stress and then it eventually turned into addiction , I am at place now where I am good it's been 5 years and want to reach out I love my father but it's hard I don't think my heart can go through it again 😭 I hope there changed hoping time can heal that is all I am praying for , not to mention how they made me feel I was a burden to there lives and I'm the mature one one at least tries to reach out
I'm an adult child of estranged parents. I don't know where to start in this moment, but I'm finding the framework in which you and your Dad are presenting to be very cathartic for me. Thank you so much. I'd love to connect more as my 84 year old Dad is having mounting health issues. I'd like to share my story with you and your Dad if possible. Thank you and I hope you are finding joy in your days. ❤
My mother and I are estranged -- she tried to get in touch recently -- but I can't get over the last time we met -- that look of disgust on my mummy's face when I merely referred to myself as "gay" in conversation with my sister at the dining table -- it's so deeply painful, I feel it physically -- I am struggling without them, but I somehow can't bring myself to lower my standards, I'm not asking for much, accept me or lose me motha EDIT: 55:59 -- I really truly appreciated this moment acknowledging other cultures -- as I'm South Asian too and sometimes these nuances aren't fully reflected in the content/help we seek and it can feel like something's missing -- so this was wonderful SUBSCRIBED
We were told from experts what was best for our children. They were wrong. I wanted to help my child develop in a good way so I followed their advice. What things were like back then. What was okay then isn’t now..
The best part of the podcast was when the dad asked the questions starting at the 9:50 minute mark "what do we owe other people, what are our duties to other people and what duties do we have to an aging parent as adults ourselves who didn't fulfill all their duties to us when we were kids"? (I'm paraphrasing)
part 2. My ex has been counter-parenting for years. I didn't know. He was saying awful untruths about me. The kids blamed me for his abuse. One adult child has gone no contact. Sometimes you take more than your responsibility. I prioritized the relationship so much, that I accepted their contempt for me. I understand what you are saying about old age. My ex was physically threatening for years and yet I am the bad guy. I would rather be by myself, than accept any more abuse, even in old age.
I had a child that I made many many sacrifices to keep. I considered abortion but chose to keep her. She was the most head strong difficult child and at 23 she cut me off completely She was pregnant and didnt include me in baby shower. I wont be involved with my first grandchild now because of her continued inability to accept me as I am. Shes very religious and I am not but she is embarrassed of me. I wonder if she would have rather I aborted her, somedays I wonder why I did this to myself. I tried to do the right thing by keeping her But it only made my life a living hell and still does. Life is so hard sometimes Its mostly family dynamics that cause so much strife. I personally would like to point out that holding on to hurt and victim mentality wont help anyone. You gotta let go for everyones sake But it seems the mental health system encourages victim mentality and thats very unhealthy for both parent and child.
I really hear this Sabrina, the emotional temperature in meeting such territory can negatively impact clarity and compassion for self and other, self harm in supporting relationship too methinks 🤔🌻
This is fantastic! You have all my respect for your well thought out assessments and I especially live how you spoke of generalizations within a topic that is SO individualistic by nature. Bravo. Too many people pushing those generalizations onto grieving victims when that shoe does not fit.
All people - young and old - are the hostages of real life circumstances. We are all in one boat. There is a wide range of circumstances -- from historical to personal -- which influences us. Granted, there is free will but even with the best of intentions its role is limited. A child who thinks that he can pronounce verdict on his parents is just stupid. He can have an opinion and he has a right to self-defense (even to the point of breaking the relationship), but he can never be sure that his final judgment was right, that he knew all the background of his parents’ life, their struggles and motivations. To understand your parents is a stepping stone towards maturity and wisdom. Today’s parents are no worse than in the past but there is suddenly a growing number of children who decided to present themselves as victims of terrible abuse. Yes, parents need their children in their old age and suffer from abandonment, but their process of vilification by their children is almost done. Their children still have it ahead of them, probably by their own children. The stage is set. And one more thing. Abandoned parents are not just passively suffering. Their attitude towards their children is also changing. If after the years of "punishing" his parent the child decides to come back the parent may say "I don't know you anymore".
I think this video did a great job of giving a balanced view for both parties and attempted its best at covering different scenarios within the time restrictions. I wouldn't say I'm at the stage of cutting off my family from my life, but moving back in with my parents for financial reasons after living away for some years has been challenging. I have changed so much as a person due to being around different cultures and personalities, and especially after dating my current fiancé. Now that I am around them all the time I am afraid of undoing all the growing that I had worked so hard for. I find it true as an adult child that it is easy to blame even well-meaning parents for the past. I know they were only trying their best, but when I learn that certain ways they communicate or act can be unhealthy, it makes me upset that I must learn how to combat it. I agree with the sentiment that Rick mentioned, that I sometimes miss my parents and the connection with them, but our now different habits and styles of communication seem to pose a rift. I understand it could also be a cultural difference, since my parents are 1st generation immigrants.
I’ll say that in my case, I feel that people’s tendency to side with my parents around my choice of estrangement often comes out of a sort of toxic benefit-of-the-doubt that lots of clinicians, counselors, etc are accustomed to doling out, often without a willingness to really sit with and be present for the sadism and injuries that that estrangement was meant to mitigate. I really wish there was more of a ubiquitous understanding of malignant narcissism and how its effects seem to require a specialized and different approach.
I hear you. Though when my mom decided to take me to counseling because she was positive I was the problem and they would fix my brokenness, she didn’t like what the therapist had to say to her after hearing what came out of a 8 year olds mouth. So therapy ended. Perhaps it’s better for a young child to speak because it can be so revealing in an innocent way. Truly I had no idea what should be said and shouldn’t, but not old enough to know I would have had better chances of survival in a foster care. That therapist should have reported my mom, but back in that day it was uncommon. Even though she was able to see through my moms mask.
Estrangement from your child is heartbreaking. Oftentimes, parents and families are cut off when your son or daughter marries someone who requires t them to cut off their families. This is what happened to us. I had a good relationship with my son until he met his wife. She avoided coming around and spent all of their time with her family. After 3 1/2 years, I have not seen or spoken to my son. He has 2 kids I have never met. He also has cut off his friends. I would have NEVER thought this would happen. To our family.
Spot on again!👏 Amazing podcast, you two together, talking about different subjects is just a shot in the arm of "validation and acknowledgement" Thank you 🙏
At some point I understood that I would never be able to interact with my father without him yelling at me at some point, often out of frustration with his own life. Tried everything. At some point my children watched one of his spectacles and I suddenly realized how wrong this was. I cut him off. To this day, he will not admit to having ever yelled at me although I and multiple other people have witnessed it multiple times. Since the I feel so relieved and guilty for feeling predominantly relieved. My mother is different. A lot of stuff went wrong. But she takes accountability and has changed her behaviors in some crucial ways so I could continue engaging with her. I really think it's about the ability to respect boundaries and take accountability and allowing me to have a relationship with her on my terms with changed dynamics.
The saying goes “You can’t pick your parents” but there is another saying seldom heard “You can’t pick your children” and sometimes children just don’t jive with their parents.
I've been estranged with both of my sons now for the past 2 years. We were very close until they were 37 and 34. They both got married and the new wives did not want me around. One son became a Conservative Christian and his new wife did not like that I was a Democrat and have liberal views. My other son married into a Mormon family and his new family did not like it that I was not willing to turn Mormon. I have let them both go to be with their new families. I don't want all of this drama in my life. I wish them all the best.
This is really good. I had to separate from a family member and it estranged me from a good bit of the rest and it's still not great. I like how you talked about the family unit you don't want to be a part of. I get that.
I found this discussion very helpful. I’d love it if you would discuss the dynamic of an adult child being influenced negatively toward their family by their spouse. A family which had very close relationships previously. There is what we perceive to be revisionist history. Child is estranged from friends and entire family. I understand we need to accept how our child feels at this moment, regardless of the way in which those feelings came about. I guess focus on the feelings, not the facts is in order. Such a difficult, sticky situation.
Kids suck, parents suck ,people suck. Don't reproduce. Human beings are incredibly fragile and the smallest wrong doing in their upbringing will have the parent dealing with a headache in the future. Kids are stressful, expensive and COMPLICATED. Get pets. They are incredibly forgiving.
Annoying and neurotic grandma is one thing. This sentiment concerns me when it is parents who carry narcissistic tendencies, pitting children against parents, causing chaos in their child’s marriage. An ordained Buddhist monk told me years ago when I was heartbroken having to chose my mental & physical health over being around my mother, “ Even bodhisattvas have boundaries” I wailed with grief and then a calm came over me. The ambiguous grief will probably not dissipate but that is the wounds of the legacy I carry and stop so the next generation can be free.
"Even bodhisattvas have boundaries" Thank you so much for sharing that! It moved something inside me. Thank you
Me too!
Hopefully your adult kids won't cut you off for being even a bit imperfect. The odds are high that you will be cut off, too. Just a sniff of "toxic behavior" (any imperfect behavior in the 18 yrs of raising children), and you may find yourself ghosted and stammering.
@@a.w.3772 "not perfect not perfect!11" the cry of the abuser. and don't worry, no one ever mistook you for perfect. EVER. hahaha.
now stop whining and go improve your character, sweetheart. lol
@@a.w.3772but will blame the grandparents....naturally.
The abuse I’ve endured from a young child carried on into my late 50’s and only when I totally cut off my primary abuser, my mother - did i begin to heal and get a new life. In cutting her off I lost all three adult siblings which I knew would happen if I ever cut her off. They all were abused as well, but just tolerated it and suffered. My oldest brother died three years ago - he never could disconnect from it all. I’m the only one who has.
❤
yes, my only brother cut me off for a couple of years and even now that he has heard my side he is very cool with me and blames me for the estrangement. I should have just respected my mother's right to be horrible to me. I realise now it can never be resolved because unless I can submit to the narrative that my mother is the perfect victim and I'm the mad bad crazy demon, then no ''progress'' will be made from my mum's side either. she is angry with me (for standing up to her). Even though I am middle aged we can neverr have and adult to adult dynamic. She just cannot do that.
💚 thank you for sharing what I’ve also experienced
When u love yourself u will understand why they are the way they are! The pathology of the family unit! Is important to understand that we r here on earth to
Learn how to love! I love my mother very much! We have had a hard time thru out the yrs! Now have been very close for the past 25 yrs! She is 80 I am 60! Just let it all go and love them the best way u know how is always the best way in my opinion!
@@captkimmy sounds like spiritual bypassing
I cried a lot during this video. Actually tears of joy that what I did with my mother, who severely hurt me through her behavior, was about the best I could have done. I distanced her in many necessary ways, but long before she died we bonded so deeply and she realized and apologized and I forgave her from my heart. Still, the hurt that was created as a child, I still have to heal from. But as far as my actions as an adult, I’m grateful that I loved her enough to heal together. Until this video, I never fully appreciated myself for how I did it.
Wow, incredible. I'm too frightened to go near my mother to attempt reconciliation. My heart is broken. Staying away from the while family has broken me but staying in the toxic system was mental suicide.
God bless you Ava! I totally resonate with what you said. My Mom never apologized but she tried to make it up to me by being supportive.
I so relate and resonate Ava! Bravo for both of us! I'm proud of us.
@@USAEast How many of your children don't speak to you?
@@ellyk8834what a revolting victim blaming comment.
Entitled.
Need to get therapy, travel more & get out of the Anglosphere to the 90% of the world where this yank social contagion isn’t a thing.
For goodness sake 🤦🏼♀️😂
I was “divorced” if you will by my three grown daughters on my 70th birthday. I was a good mom and they good kids. No drugs alcohol physical or sexual abuse etc. they have PhDs now and powerful careers. The father was emotionally unavailable. It’s been 7 years with no response from them to overtures. This is the first communication I have ever seen. It is very helpful and I appreciate it very much. The acceptance is the key I believe and I will be able to work with that now thanks to your words. I be.I eve it will make a beneficial difference in my life. I’m sure I made mistakes likely many from ignorance and a blind spot. I’ve lived IN this now for 7 years and think this may help me move on a bit! Much gratitude!
I'd imagine that they told you why if you knew they were all ' divorcing ' you on your 70th ? Children dont just walk away from those crucial bonds......all the parents who make comments on estrangement vids conveniently leave out the reasons why their child estranged from them.
@@vivdoolan6846 yes, it's interesting, I have tried to communicate to my mother how she upset me but she just will not hear it and has told everybody that my abuse of her makes no sense. In fact, It makes perfect sense. I need to protect myself because she will not hear me. I'm not a real person to her. I'm the part she wrote. I must apparently respect her right to dismiss my perspective because it literally doesn't exist to her. So I do wonder what she would write on a website like this. But saying that, I know she's suffering in her own way and it's all so unnecessary.
@@vivdoolan6846 ouch!
i am a therapist , daughter and mother and grandmother . My mother divorced ME with no explanation and i wasnt even told about her death a few yesrs ago . My daughter is on the verge of shutting me out now . Even though i am a therapist i still struggle to understand why . Its actually very posible to be shut out without an explanation and without enough chance to change behavious and been given several chances to do so . I HOPE really hope , Your daughters have given you real explanations to their actions . Ones you can digest and understand . Living with the "unfinished loops " inside of not knowing why makes the grief tormenting . My heart goes out to you . Its so painful .
@@beccywilson1349 your response is so compassionate, and I respect that. I feel for everyone in these situations, even the parents whom have been estranged for valid reasons yet remain stuck in their perspectives. It’s sad all around, the loss experienced, no matter whom or what brought it about. I wish everyone peace, healing, closure, self awareness…
When your child tells you there is a major problem, dont ignore them because you dont like what is being said. Knowledge is power. In sharing with you , they are giving you the EXACT information needed to make the changes to keep the relationship. This is GOLDEN information, ignore it at your peril. Too many parents ignore their children hoping the 'problem' will go away, but in ignoring, which is a toxic form of communication, the relationship is completely destroyed instead. So yes, the problem goes away, but so does your child. This is not the outcome you want,
For those parents who are NOT told what the issues are , that's obviously more difficult but so many parents are told and will just close off their hearing and the result is the total erasure of their child and the destruction of the relationship. No one wins in these situations...so if you have been told, chuck your ego to the side and really listen hard to your child. All they want is acknowledgement .... they know you may not be able to put right historic issues , but the art of listening, acknowledging and allowing space for the childs pain is massively important to keep your relationships alive. Sometimes just being heard and acknowledged is enough. Closing it all down because you can't bear to hear the grievances will result in you feeling way way worse in the end because they will leave you. So then not only will you have shame and guilt to contend with , you will have unbearable grief too. Accountability and knowledge is the key.
Well said!!
Here here!
I wish my parents would realize this, but I think they will actually be happier when I am out of their life. And so will I.
@@USAEast OMG, I have never seen such B.S. -- and that's my view of what you wrote.
@@USAEastwell said!
I get that there are a lot of children who feel the need to distance themselves from their parents, especially mothers, who are often targeted for adult children’s pathologies, even though it’s not only mothers who are involved in forming a child’s personality, but there are parents who need to distance themselves from their abusive children who feel they have a right to be abusive to their parents. There are many children, especially in these days and ages, who feel entitled to their parents time and money long into adulthood but they are unwilling to give it back
What is clear in my clinical practice of 30 years is that many times the parental abuse especially emotional and psychological continues into adulthood and may get worse. So not to cover this situation seems important since it is common that the parental abuse continues through into adulthood.
Thank you for this comment. It bothered me that this was not covered or mentioned.
I can totally attest to this. My father would show up at my house that I owned and just start screaming at me because I had not shoveled my driveway or had leaves in my yard, you name it, even though I was 100% self supporting and on my own for 20 years.
No healing g anymore because kids don't have to learn forgiveness or accountability. Keep it going!
My Family Scapegoat Abuse continued til I cut them off... late 20s w/ my father (I went no contact when he refused to go back to therapy for him and I, it was 2 appts maybe 3 he went to, w/ a huge chip on his shoulder - ironic since they used a psychiatrist to gaslight me about their abuse for 2 yrs & I had to sit for several more yrs w/ 4 "family therapy"- that I was the only kid in the family required to attend) & late 30s w/ my mother. When I was an adult, so too large to physically throw in my room & lock me in, & terrorize me physically, sometimes w/ her belt, she used the same skills she honed on my father when siccing him on me for physical punishment to change the subject between them from her inability to parent or keep a home even semi- competently, to manipulate cops (turns out not hard to do, who knew) w/ fabricated stories accusing ME of physical abuse, or of threatening myself (Didnt, tho she didnoften & was involuntarily hospitalized, sometimes for weeks or months) using her best waif/ victim persona (she has BPD, & traits of avoidant & dependent PD as well) & as a result I got arrested once (fortunately charges eventually dropped but my days in jail were absolutely hellish) & TWICE taken in for "my own safety" for a 72 hr hold, in a disgusting, scary hellhole of a county mental health facility.
Abusers will abuse you until they can not do so anymore.
Mine got so much worse in my 20s & on
I’d like to hear more about estrangement between adult siblings following the death of a parent. Rick gave this a “nod,” can you expand in another episode?
Frank I echo this request, My dad died a year ago and I recognise as this second loss has increased fault lines in my family, really found this podcast useful and yet feel more conscious of two of my 5 siblings distanced, my dads complexity in relationship overstepping boundaries has a part in this…..immersed in working this awareness ……thank you for naming this too 🤔🌻
I expect a lot of sibling problems are caused by the parents. My sibling and I have been senior citizens for several years, and even after the death of our parents, she wanted to see me as the rival who should do whatever she wanted with little to no consideration for my needs. Do I need to say that this sibling was the "favorite"? But didn't feel like it! I never got a rational explanation for the pouting, the sudden rages, and the resentments, just found myself walking on eggshells, never knowing when Dr. Jekyl would suddenly morph into Mr. Hyde and act out. It felt as bad as if I was being hit in the face without warning! Extreme control issues. Never phoned, only emailed to control the conversation completely, yet we live only a couple hours away from each other and neither of us has immediate family and therefore a lack of "time" to interact in a reasonable, healthy way. My sibling also distanced from our parent when Dad was younger, but as he got old and my sibling had even more power, there was all the time in the world for Dad! Very ill situation arising from a very sick and dysfunctional family going back at least three generations.
@@gwenwalker6925 Absolutely....
@@moxiepooties6363 I relate to this so much. My sibling was the golden child and we now have very little contact. My mother pitted us against each other. We also have a stepparent who has shut us out us since my father fell ill.
I loved my father, who had a very hard life in many ways. But when he died and I finished the estate business, sent my sibling their last checks and wrapped things up, it was like getting paroled. My wife and I quietly left and cut off all contact with not just my siblings, but my entire family. All because of the awful, abusive behaviour my siblings exhibit. Sister: Borderline Personality Disorder, a serial physical abuser, Older Brother: Jealous, bitter, resentful, disagreeable a-hole. It's been 24 years, and to quote my wife "We've never missed them once". Here we are today with a very comfortable life, a nice home, plenty of money, and most important, peace. I have no doubt if I was to ever open the door to just let a sliver of energy from these people back in, they would make every effort to poison everything. So don't feel bad if you have to fire your family. Sometimes it's the best thing to do.
As a mother of an adult child, I never want to inflict on my own daughter the sense of shame and paralyzing guilt that my own mother inflicted on me. My mother had a core of pain within her that caused her to judge me when I couldn’t live up to her expectations, and I was simply unable to cross the line and discuss with her the impact it had on me. I looked after her and cared for her until she was 94. For a few years we lived together. We split because I knew that if we didn’t, I was either going to kill her or kill myself! The split was painful, especially for her, and she said some outrageous things. But we got over it and carried on,until she passed away some five years ago,at the age of 94. Now at 76, I am free to assess her style of mothering but a little old to really live my life again. For my own daughter, I am able to assess and reflect on the pain and paralyzing impact my own mother had on me, and I know she doesn’t have to live to please me. We live many miles apart, I understand that her life is hers and mine is mine. I don’t expect her to fix my life, and I am fully aware that her life choices are hers and hers alone. I never wish to transplant the pain my mother my mother inflicted on me ( whether intentionally or not) on my daughter. I made many mistakes when she was growing up which in hindsight I recognize as repeating my own mother’s patterns of child rearing. Self awareness allows me to regret those. Just as I want my daughter to spread her wings, and follow her passions, so I want to follow mine. Love without expectations and judgement is the only bond that matters.
The “when they were younger” part can be an excuse and make it easier to induce guilt or shame in the adult child such as “that happened so long ago, they’re getting old, why can’t you forgive and forget, you only have one parent etc” PLEASE note a lot of estrangement started with gray rocking, measured contact, maybe parent child therapy to no avail.
Yup being told by my narc mother in relation to the physical abuse I experienced as a child 'oh just forget about it.' Like I didnt get my favourite sandwich filling one day.
@@vivdoolan6846 Yeah... That is so real to me. Like you beating on my with a wooden spoon or slipper or whatever is like not getting dessert a couple of times... The absolute delusion of these abusers.
I totally pulled away from my father when I was 32. I am now 59 and have no regrets! I saw his anger starting to kick up with my 4 year old son and thought no we aren't doing this again. He also was sexually abusive and I have done a ton of work. When my first x husband (he was 25 years my senior) and my mom died. They both died 3 years ago and since then I've done so much work and it took me all my life to get well.
It's so hard to leave the family relationships. But when they keep hurting you and won't acknowledge or try to change, then it's time to move on and forge a life with healthy people.
@@999xerxes Thanks 👍
This guy the father is a fantastic therapist he’s the one of the best ones I’ve come across online everything he saying it’s just right on he’s polite he’s respectful he gets his point across he always adds the nuance that makes the difference wow I am impressed
Forrest your level of emotional intelligence and self awareness is incredible. Obviously this is in your own right but I cant help seeing your very wise and super in tune father and seeing where you got that EI foundation from and then developing it in your own right. The way you have dealt with this extremely difficult subject was so sensitive and considered I applaud you both hugely for helping those who are experiencing such pain.....
Disagree, his opinionated pontifications interfered with getting important evidence based information from a consummate profession with decades of experience & expertise.
Interviewers who want free therapy on Utube from a professional should be making that very clear in the heading so others can not waste their time & feel defrauded.
My 35 year old daughter ghosted me for 41/2 years. I wrote to her and told her that I respected her boundaries and that I love her unconditionally and nothing that she could ever do would make me love her any more or any less. And I just let go. I reminded myself daily that this situation is providing me with the opportunity to practice unconditional love. And I waited for a long time. Finally she contacted me. We didn't talk about the past. We just started at today.
Sweet. Glad to hear it.
I love your healthy relationship with your father- it’s beautiful. I’m estranged now from my entire family
Good for you! I'm sure this was the right thing for you.
Im the same ...I admire family with healthy bonds while being estranged from my own for the sake of staying sane
Me too but its freeing.
This is a very manipulative, unequal relationship. Utterly lacking in courage & integrity.
Love the nuance and thoughtfulness of this conversation. Thank you!
I’m from a family of 5. Our ‘control freak’ mother passed in 1976; we all attended her funeral. Dad the ‘belitter’ passed in 2002 & we all attended his funeral. There was NO TIME in the years between in which we all gathered. I attempted 3 ‘family reunions’ & the 2 brothers didn’t show. My siblings continued the ‘control freak’ mentality & parental style of our parents. There simply came a point where it was too triggering to observe/intervene. As the FIXER, I realized I had to let go of the toxicity. Have not been in any contact for ~ 15 years & the peace has outweighed any estrangement grief.
FWIW: About 2 years after Mom’s death, one sister told me to keep in contact with mom’s sisters “because they don’t have any children & when they die, they’ll have to leave their money to someone”. I was aghast & let her know how morally reprehensible I thought that was. She could never/will never understand that control is NOT love. Decades later she & her husband ‘visited’ (used our home as a place to stay) for a wedding. The next morning, she tried to tell me how MY WILL should be written for her children’s benefit. “That’s not going to happen” was met with rage & the proverbial narcissistic discard. 🤷🏻♀️
Such an entitled boundary cross to tell you what to do with your money.
It's always about the money. They care more about money than human beings that they are blood related to.
Nothing they hate more than being called out on their moral insanity.
It’s called Ambiguous grief, and it’s extremely painful.
I think the 2 of you are Excellent..!!! I am also a Lic. Psychologist in 3 states. I SO appreciate that your video gives all sides of estrangement in families and does NOT make the mistake of siding with the Adult child and assuming that it is the narcissism of of both or one parent that has caused this problem like so many therapists are doing lately.
This podcast definitely leans in favor of the adult child. The father therapist meekly advocates for estranged parents, while the son therapist overtly and rather dominantly and often smugly advocates for the adult children.
This dynamic left me with the sense that the therapist son likely has a significant percentage of his client base (income $$$) as adult kids who've estranged. This was not an equally yoked delivery. The smugness of the young, Millennial therapist (who has no children of his own) was off-putting.
This IS a poignant topic. When the parents are narcissistic and abusive across all boundaries, and deny any accountability, there can be only one choice.
In a situation like this, getting an inheritance as an element of the decision to cut off is a deeply and personally compromising consideration. When your dignity and healing hinge on a cut-off, money means nothing! I wish you had brought severe narcissistic abuse overtly into the conversation, because it is a hugely common dynamic. Thank you for the content and this video!
I told my mom numerous times that she didn’t have to apologize for the past at all. (Her own unacknowledged mental illness caused her to emotionally torture, parentify and isolate me during childhood.) I just needed her to stop the insulting, day long rants against me at every single holiday and stop causing family drama with her lies (that she would proudly admit to). She said that I had to learn to deal with it and accept her for what she was because she didn’t have to change. I suffer debilitating chronic illnesses both mental and physical. She knows that. But, she continues to tell people that she has no idea why I won’t interact with her. She encouraged my sister to be a prostitute, my nephew to sell drugs out of her house and the final straw for me is that she tried to trick my other sister into driving a car full of drugs so that my nephew wouldn’t be arrested but the law-biding, municipal employee sister would be arrested instead. But people still take my mom’s side against us, knowing the insanity that goes on. I’m estranged from almost all of them now and have never felt better. I hate the assumption that I (or any adult child in a similar boat) am to blame for the estrangement. My husband and I have been on police watch lists because of this woman’s craziness. There is just no way to interact with those people!
Sonje, just do your best to take care of yourself and live the life YOU want. There are crazy, bad, mean-spirited people that LOVE the drama and enjoy other's pain. Sometimes they are your own family, the cruelest betrayal of all. If you've done all that you're capable of doing, and giving, then let them go. They will be free to continue, just NOT with you. And you can have a life of dreams and kindness and love that they will NEVER have. Be blessed and know that you are beautiful.
😅 5:56 😅
OHMYGOSH!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO! You have eased, lifted, validated and confirmed me. I became estranged from my brothers a year ago. I have struggled with guilt and grief. It is a toxic situation for me. I know there will be no apology or change of behavior, and just last week myself moved into a place of functional forgiveness. Thank you so much. I feel so much better.
How did you do the functional forgiveness?
Such an extremely complex and delicate reality this estrangement within family systems. I am at the point where I have decided, chosen, not to deal with it anymore. I have done what I could, what was within my realm of action and actionability....when trying and trying and trying became painful to me, I decided to stop for my own well being. I do feel grief, but I also know that I am not able to keep doing at this moment in time-that feeling may change, I may have energy to keep trying...but right now, the energy I have is for me.
This was very helpful. Your knowledge and compassion shine through. My sibling and I have had a terrible falling out - he has bulldozed through my boundaries over and over.
He has proven himself to be an emotionally unsafe person for me. So we are now estranged. I will not be hosting any more holidays at least this year. I bend over backwards to make everyone happy. My mother also whining that my kids don’t shower her with enough attention. Year after year, though they show her respect and show affection in their own style.
I can’t fix everyone’s emotional baggage - I’ve truly had enough.
Anyway, thank you. I’ll be subbing to your channel.
Can relate!! Wish I had known 20 years ago how to deal with the family bull-dozer but I DO KNOW NOW!! And she’s no longer in my life thank goodness!
I imagine your kids will be even more relieved than you- it's confusing AF to be a child dealing with an adult throwing a toddler tantrum, demanding behavior that makes you uncomfortable, worrying you'll upset your parents by not giving in to the needy emotionally immature, self centered adult.
I hope if yr kids saw you get upset when that occurred, they knew that it wasn't with them.
Yor mother is an emotionally unsafe n for your children.
I’ve stepped away from my parents and family and it’s so painful. I didn’t plan on doing this, I’ve just not been comfortable seeing them and ignoring the elephant in the room.
My former spouse/partner was arrested for assault/family violence after many confusing years.
The only difference between this “assault” and others was that a neighbor called the police and our teen son was present.
So, charges were made, stay away order, defense lawyer, etc. I could not make it stop because our son was present.
I did not ask anyone to defend me. I asked my family to not answer calls from my ex-husband or his lawyer. They did not respect my request and answered the phone and questions. They stayed neutral.
I didn’t want huge consequences for my ex-husband. I did want acknowledgement and for our son to know that was not acceptable.
I feel betrayed by my family and hurt. My sister complained when I gave her as a reference because CPS was involved.
They seemed more concerned about his military career than about me. (When this assault happened, we were extremely stressed, and I was so depressed I was not functional.)
Anyway, I don’t know that my family is capable of understanding why I feel betrayed. They have not understood most of my life. They are simple people, and friendly people to everyone. It just would have been nice to have them show some concern about me, their daughter.
This was great. You guys are so thoughtful in the way you discuss such things. It really makes the information “go down easy”.
After 58 years of life, I have finally come to a place of acceptance that the dysfunctions in my FOO are not at all likely to ever improve, which has freed me in big way.
I have not fully cut off contact with anyone but I have distanced myself and have also learned to allow myself to set guilt-free boundaries.
What you said about having compassion for those you feel hurt by is so true. I think it actually may have been “necessary” for me to feel fully settled in my decisions around “how” to distance myself without stirring up any additional or unnecessary/useless pain.
My efforts to heal, listen, apologize authentically, get therapy, make amends have not been able to sustain my relationships with my adult children. My mistakes and harms have just been too much. They haven’t directly said they want nothing to do with me. If I stop reaching out 37:56 what’s left is silence. I have to accept that the damage and pain I caused is not able to be compensated for. I do accept that my adult children matter to me way more than I will ever matter to them. I must love and care for and support myself since I will be alone. I must outgrow wanting them to want me in their life, admire or respect me or enjoy me. I’m sure they love me in some way - and want nothing with me. Thank you for helping me accept the whole thing.
That sounds immensely painful. Especially when there are drug addict and violent criminal parents whose kids forgive them and choose to love them, despite horrendous parenting choices. How to not feel hurt and bitter when kids toss their parents in a garbage can is tough.
I walked away from my narcissistic parents last year. They he thing is , I keep hearing parents saying how they know they want perfect and made mistakes but they never will go past that and actually talk about specific trauma. They think making these blanket statement is the same as they taking accountability but if we can’t sit down as two adults and talk about it all without placing blame but just to gain insight in to the other person but instead you quickly point out something I did that hurt you plus gaslight me , then at this point I don’t care if how my walking a say affects you since your goin on into old age, and I won’t harbor any shame or guilt because it’s not about the past anymore it’s about how your refusing to heal us currently because your shame and guilt keeps you manipulating and trying to control me. So I have to walk away because you broke our connection and it’s nothing left for me to give to our relationship. It’s time is up because of your choices
In the same boat , I thought with age and time they'd be different ,honestly I don't know where they get the energy from to be so defensiveness and then flip it its exhausting
Thank goodness You did an episode on this. I detached from my birth giver the week before thanksgiving this past Year.
I did years of therapy and healing only to be set back by her again. ❤
I took control and said no more.
Now here i am
Well said. My mother decided to triangulate immediately with her husband and my half brother.
She is one of those reformed women who acts like her past doesn’t exist.
It’s infuriating and disgusting.
She was a completely different entity with me. Another with my real brother. Then yet again a new one with the last one.
She needs so much help its not ok ❤
I’m 51 and have tried to navigate through these issues for a number of years. Early on the biggest problem I felt I had was with my highly narcissistic father and also brother and how to relate to them through adulthood as my father’s health declined and I was busy with my own family responsibilities. I felt a lot of resentment and anger due to the impact childhood neglect and poor parenting etc had on my life growing up. I felt it had led to a range of consequences such as a people-pleasing type personality, lower self esteem low self confidence, less personal success. It also spilt over into relationship dynamics with friendships and later with family on my husband’s side, a number of who were also highly narcissistic, who I found difficult to hold my own with. At times I felt interacting with these people felt intolerable and it created a huge amount of both anxiety and anger in me. My father died suddenly a few years ago so that issue faded somewhat but I still felt a lot of anxiety and anger at other family members like my older brother and some in-laws. Earlier I contemplated going no-contact with various people due to the stress contact created but more lately I have come to the realisation that doing so wouldn’t improve anything, but would instead likely just create alienation from other family members who didn’t understand the dynamic going on. I have tried to bring the issues I had with my father to other’s attention but I found no one really wanted to know. And ‘standing up for myself’ seems just to lead to further alienation. In the end I have concluded a few things that may or may not help others. One is that it is highly unlikely we can ever get a feeling of resolution with other family members via trying to explain our side of the story. These events were in the past and cannot be changed. People can rarely change and highly narcissistic people certainly cannot - its hard for them to even have any real self awareness. They only know how to operate one way - and that is with them at the top of the social hierarchy and everyone else below - particularly if you happen to traditionally occupy that lower rung - they are never going to see you as an equal. They also cannot cope with any disagreement from anyone else. It is a waste of time trying to get your view heard if it differs from theirs - it is much better to remain silent than trying to voice disagreement as they will always go on the attack. It is also highly unlikely that any of the other family members will support attempts to change established patterns of relating. The family enablers will remain family enablers and if you try to rock the boat it will only lead to further alienation. In short - you cannot change others you can only change yourself. Yes it is an option to cut off all contact - and if abuse was /still is severe such as in sexual or physical abuse that may well be warranted. But I concluded that for emotional abuse & neglect it may be better to alter the way we interact with others. Because as we get older it becomes clear that life is short and family is still family despite everybody’s shortcomings. It can feel lonely during older age and feeling excluded from all significant family events such as Xmas, bdays, funerals etc etc - including from family who you may not have had any issue with and who won’t understand what is causing your absence. And I don’t think it will necessarily lead to any real feeling of personal healing as it is more a technique of avoidance than healing. So my own conclusion is simply to continue contact but to lower expectations of the individuals you have had issues with in the past. Know they are likely to say things or act in ways that will be insensitive, critical or rude. But the solution is to see those behaviours as issues they have and not to take them personally or respond to them - ie go ‘grey rock’ during those conversations. Also it is best to not express any dissenting thoughts (from the group) while in the presence of highly narcissistic people as they will immediately attempt to shut you down as they are incapable of ‘agreeing to disagree’ or engaging in any type of calm rational debate - they only value one opinion and that is their own. That is not to say we need to forgo all personal boundaries. These need to remain strong where it counts, but in group situations it is best to just adopt benign neutrality (ie pick your battles). That way you can continue to remain part of the family despite all its disfunction, but you can also have the self awareness and know the techniques to adopt so that you are not damaged from every event and interaction - and do not spend the weeks ahead dreading an event or require weeks afterwards mentally and physically recovering from it.
Very well thought out and helpful response. Thanks 🙂🤗
Yes, weighing consequences is important also. Whatever the choice there is always a price to pay.
Flying monkeys may be even worse to explain the situation to than the perpetrator. My experience has been that it has left me with a *yuk* feeling. It's a lonely path.
Rather than getting others to empathise, I recommend developing compassion for ourselves. It is the best way of harnessing our personal power. God bless you, if you are dealing with estrangement on any level. ♥️♥️♥️
@@KhanyisileNyembezi-n4k Yes that explains the feeling exactly. 💯 It does feel yuk trying to get the support of flying monkeys because whereas you once saw them as possible support you realise they don’t have your back at all and will side with the perpetrator to uphold the status quo. It is definitely better to work on developing compassion for ourselves rather than seeking healing (empathy & validation) from others within that system. Because we’re not likely to get it!
Decades of psychological and emotional damage can force you to go no contact because it becomes a question of life or death.
I had to go no contact and I'm all by myself. My siblings want my share of my deceased father's will which can't be executed until my mother died. I was close to unalive myself and I might end up homeless because I realized about that problem (malignant narcissism) too late but the other option (staying) was already a death sentence.
Hmmm - an example of how there’s no substitute for experience. Forest, I’m glad you can advocate for the adult child doing the estrangement…and you can only be who you are…but it’s hard to hear the clinical “it’s time to face reality” from someone who has never done it. I hope you never feel the loss that I’m experiencing. I feel gutted and confused and achingly sorrowful.
“Gutted, confused and achingly sorrowful”. Me too. I’ve been struggling with the narcissistic mother family dynamics since junior high school. I’ve been Trying to make sense out of my story for a really long time. 60 years later I finally was able to admit that my narcissistic mother created the army and dictated everything…. she was a tiny attractive woman that obviously had no self-esteem but of course I didn’t realize any of this until very very late. Thanks for your few RUclipsrs and Podcasters I have learned and have digested the truth. It’s very lonely out there Gutted, confused and abused.
All examples in this podcast focus on what the parent "did" to merit rejection from an adult child. I wonder about parents who have profound confusion surrounding the "why" behind the rift. Enter the most excruciating scavenger hunt of our lives...Enter shame, paranoia, devastation, worry, fear, catastrophizing, obsessive phone checking, and burning sorrow when there's no text, no missed call. I can't think of anything that has made me feel more unloved or unlovable than my child's rejection. It has rocked my very identity. Thank you Forest's dad for working the parent's devastation into the discussion, albeit quietly. This decision, to estrange, has life-changing ramifications. Personally, it has brought me to my knees.
Forrest, the word "narcissism" has been used here about a dozen times. Perhaps a podcast on what that actually is could benefit your listeners. It's a big word and a big diagnosis. It's also an easy way to justify abandoning a parent. I say this with zero knowledge of the situations of your listeners. Food for thought anyway.
@@teriwills5876 OMG, yes. You described my anguish perfectly. It is traumatic and ambiguous grief that has shaken me to my core. There are no words to adequately describe what I, and many other parents, are experiencing. For me, I finally found most of the puzzle pieces but it may be too late. Many of us have been blindsided, causing us to miss opportunities to stop the growth of alienation.
Causing you harm causing you bother. There’s a vast difference in harm and bother.
Well said Forrest!!! Brilliant. You DON"T HAVE to forgive anyone to move on and live a happy life. You can understand the difficulties your parents faced, and still have very strong boundaries around what you will tolerate. An issue that is not addressed enough is enmeshment, and where the boundaries lie when your parent is elderly and somewhat dependent, and how to deal with an emotionally unhealthy parent in that situation. Too many people feel responsible for their parents' mental health issues, especially when there's a long history of it in their childhoods. It is a nuanced topic
Wonderful episode, I never hear this topic talked about but it affects so many people, thank you Forrest and Rick. Happy holidays.❤❤
Forrest, PLEASE do an episode about estrangement between adult siblings! This subject is discussed more than it used to be, but still not nearly enough.
This is the best, most comprehensive, and tender conversation I have heard on this topic.Thank you. There was so much kindness and wisdom here. Very well presented.
You have to deal with your own emotional pain - whether you are the one who cut off contact or not. You can heal and grow so that the other person's behaviour doesn't affect you as much.
Thanks for your perspective. The father , son approach to this subject is interesting and helpful. Our adult son (30s) left the family home 5 months ago. His departure was turbulent and was based on a long time toxic relationship with me (his father). He also is estranged from his two siblings. Apart from the stated toxicity, would add a host of other factors: generational differences; notable sense of entitlement; disrespect; extreme religious influences (his mother and I suspect he has joined a religious cult or an influential religious organization that is guiding many of his life decisions); diagnosed social anxiety disorder; lost his job; and much more. In my uncertain view, his departure has been a much needed break for him as well as for us as parents. The high emotions ranged from anger, disbelief, more anger, to trying to understand what happened, what I/we did wrong as parents. At this moment, we (my wife and I) are at peace, still baffled with his choice to be completely estranged from us and the entire family. My wife struggles with it more heavily, even as his issues are primarily, or perhaps exclusively with me. I had to also realize that I too went through a 30 year estrangement from my father (for many different reasons, I think). We are seeing a family therapist to better comprehend his and our actions. Not easy! Thanks again.
If this topic were a painting we'd be staring at it for a long time. You did a great job Forrest and Rick 😊
Good to see a balance on this conversation. The older and in my opinion wiser therapist admits that he’s had patients come in and talk about trivialities as to why they want to cut their parents off or have already done so.
So, we understand that it doesn’t take much for some people. The idea that the only reason kids do this is because the parent was an alcoholic or terribly abusive is just not always the case.
I did not escape my notice, also, that the therapist with many years of experience said that we do live in a highly individualistic, western society and our culture teaches that we are to be happy and anyone who is not bringing us happiness can or should be cut from our lives.
This is why this conversation is so incredibly fascinating. It’s fascinating because the amount of incredible damage to a parent is barely acknowledged, while the concern for the health and welfare of the child or the adult child is paramount.
I have come across in my lifetime, a parent that was incredibly toxic. I have first-hand knowledge and observation of just miserable this person was in word and in deed. Two words are thrown around a lot these days: toxic and narcissist, The vast majority people are not toxic or narcissistic, but this mother was. It was like she tainted everything she touched. Neither of her adult children talk to her anymore.
Excellent observations! Scant attention was given to the incredible pain parents experience, and also the power dynamic, where adult kids can enjoy the power they now have to keep a grieving parent placid, crying, begging for connection... near suicidally depressed, at times. If the parent sneezes the wrong way, the door is shut in their face again. While the smug, self righteous child walks off, applauded by society and often their own therapist for having "good boundaries." Not all kids, but some.
I so appreciate the fleshing out of the complexities involved in parenting that also affect how the parent child relationship evolves. My family system was dysfunctional growing up with an abusive alcoholic father and emotionally immature unstable mother. I decided I would never use substances and tried to create a child centered “family”. However I didn’t calculate how my CPTSD affected me and my ability to engage emotionally with the challenges my children went through. I chose unsupportive partners which only made everything more challenging. So I provided financially and mothered with intention but unable to overcome all the challenges to create the close family ties I hoped for myself and my children. Confused and overwhelmed for years why not being abusive and addicted was not enough. Intergenerational trauma requires an awareness and healing process that I find is hard to do especially in a family system that won’t accept anything changing and actually punished for trying to heal. 😢
Both of these gentlemen speak so well; such a pleasure.
This was SO helpful. I love the format ie Rick and Forrest conversations. Two great minds and hearts. Ideas so clearly articulated. Thank you.
“My kid is taking all this space from me 😂” love that.
Zero accountability
I’m estranged from my abusive narcissistic father and sister who acts just like him. I’m happier becuase i no longer have to fake it and be inauthentic with anyone in my life. I have no guilt anymore about cutting them off. They chose this with their behavior
Unfortunately we cant chose our family however we can chose how as adults we relate....for me due to a toxic parent my siblings repeated the toxicity so I learnt to put in my boundaries and walked away to protect myself psychologically and emotionally.
This is such a relevant and necessary topic to cover. May I add that the Bible has "well-applied, general advice" on this subject, forgiveness being a primary one. Other principles include empathy, humility, selflessness, and honor; all essential to resolve relationship problems.
I'm an only child who has chosen to have zero contact with my parents. I did it once for five years, then got back in touch, then went back to no contact which is how things will remain until the apology Forrest mentioned that would be required for a true reconciliation. That will never come from at least one of my parents. But as to what a parent can do if their child doesn't want contact? Honestly, the single biggest thing they can do is to reach out and ASK WHY they've gone no contact and what it would take to repair. Neither of my parents ever once have done this and I've heard from other family members they either don't know why I went no contact or they're completely mistaken.
My husband is the only child of a single mother who worked every day as a legal secretary to support her son and her mother. She was a difficult woman and often drank to excess. But it was a different era. I was very respectful to her and appreciated all she had done against the insurmountable odds of the time to raise such a fine son. She lived with us for the last six years of her life. She was bedridden and on full oxygen. She did not want to go into a nursing home. Sure it was a big commitment but I was home with 4 teenage children so they were a great help with their grandmother. I am Irish and every household had a grandparent or two. God forbid estranging a grandparent, never heard of it.
You mention that you want an apology from your parent . I have learned in my 73 years that people are never satisfied with the apology they get. You are supposed to be smarter than your parents. You have more education than your parents. Why embarrass their ignorance by subjecting them to your idea of a suitable apology. It was hard work with 4 kids and a grandparent but we learned a lot about family and respect for elders. My husband's mother thanked me often and promised me that she would do something special for me in heaven.
Listening to podcasts, makes me think that Americans don't want their parents because they don't want to take care of them when they are older.
@@ansh9236 You should work on your reading skills before you judge an entire nation of people and presume to know what they don't want or how they all feel. You seem like someone who may be more comfortable inciting a flame war on Twitter, so I urge you to take your backhanded insults, pointless details, and prejudices there. Most Twitter users' reading comprehension is abysmal so you'll fit right in. Thanks for stopping by.
They know why. That's why they don't care to ask. They know they did wrong but won't ever admit it.
@@Lyrielonwind You're probably right
Thank YOU for the important work you are doing. Those touched by complex/toxic family dynamics deserve clarity and your discussion was very helpful in making that a bit more attainable. I personally loved that you went the higher ground and brought compassion at the forefront of it.
I agree that compassion should also play a part in the relationship from both sides.
If your confused …… it’s because it’s confusing. Trust your gut about people. Awareness about the games we all play.
Well, old fashioned manners are seeming more and more important during this time. My Gram, who had super strict manners....she wouldn't talk politics or religion with most people and all of that....she said that we need manners most with our close families instead of "letting down our hair" and all of that. May have been correct.
I would love for you to do a long video about sibling estrangement… and partial estrangement. One sister is completely no contact, the other I talk to occasionally and pretend to be nice, but it is so damn awkward and uncomfortable to pretend that this is OK. It’s so painful!
The differences in the generations in very evident in this conversation. I am a similar age to the son and his perspectives are common amongst my peers. He references "my right", "what I am entitled to" and other peoples "problematic" behaviors etc. The dad keeps trying to reference some concepts that are very foreign to my generation; "duty" and "responsibility". This generation was brought up in a culture of rights without responsibilities. It used to be well understood that one cannot even have rights without responsibilities. One example I think of can be seen in the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Derry. One of the recurrent characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. The teenagers roll their eyes at Uncle Colm and can’t understand why they have to spend time with him. The adults also find him tedious, but nevertheless continue to invite him along to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. The truth is that if Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return. There are many quizzes online advertised as tools for helping you to determine if your parents were abusive or toxic. One profoundly subjective question asks ‘when you make a mistake, do your parents make you feel bad?’ These can lead people to re-narrate their childhood experiences as in fact abusive rather than viewing them as part of the typical ups and downs of life. I believe that these trends have in part contributed to the growing loneliness, anxiety and depression of my generation.
Well said
My daughter has estranged from me, as she believes I have anxiety disorder. She demanded I see a psychiatrist before I could meet my first grandchild, so I did. As far as accountability and an apology, I can't give her anything that would ring true. Her father had MS. I ran our family like an army general, worked long hours doing manual labor because it was enough money to keep us out of a Trailor Park and allow for her college aspirations. I was also taking care of elderly parents. I took care of a home, keeping it ready for friends and neighbors to come over. The kids had medical care, dental care, pets and nice clothes and toys. No, I did not have the time at home I wished I could have. Anxiety - you bet, and I'm sure I will carry that the rest of my life. So far, I have not been allowed to see the baby, and she has gone no contact. The baby's first birthday is coming up, and I have gifts, but know they will be tossed away if I send.
There is far more than anxiety going on. I think if you took the time see a professional and took the time to look at reality, you may recognize the emotional abuse that occurred. Your daughter is protecting your grandson. She doesn’t want toys for the baby, she wants you to acknowledge the harm caused and fix it, so her son won’t be harmed the same way she was.
This has been very informative and compassionate conversation. Thank you.
And dealing with estrangement when your siblings are getting older, you sometimes realize you are also dealing with their mental states and personality disorders which presents an even higher hurdle to scale and may well render any possible mutual reconciliation near impossible to achieve.
Another insight on therapy I would like to offer.
This is just my opinion based on my observations of others throughout my life who sought out therapy.
Therapy rarely works unless their client is fully transparent and willing to reflect on their own behavior. No that doesn't mean they are to blame, it simply means their behavior played a role more than likely, but not necessarily either!
Sometimes the other party involved isn't available or willing to come, though a good therapist knows spending every session in validating isn’t progressing to the results of healing.
I say this because I’ve known several people and one in particular throughout my life who were in therapy and they became much worse, to the point no one was able to be around them. It became all about “my therapist said this or that” throwing it in her moms face as some kind of power trip that caused everyone at the gathering to not want to be around anymore.
When her mom was more than willing to go to her therapist, the daughter refused and stopped going all together.
Therapy is more than validation on what you experienced. And the hard work comes in after you’ve said everything there is to say.
Forgiveness is a key component to moving forward with or without. It’s not easy, but very rewarding.
33:32 it extremely sad not knowing how your only child is doing and if you will ever see them again.
I thank you for your videos, I appreciate both of your work and I find them very helpful. I would like to add here that is very hard if not uncompress able to understand if one has not been in the situation, of searching of the substitute of a family or any member of it even you meet people that are proven to be such, is like being born orphan and don't know where you belong and where your roots are, very sad situation but you learn to live with it and accept it as part of the healing.
Estrangement is a tangled, complicated web of emotions and ambiguous losses. Sometimes you can untangle it, sometimes it’s out of your hands. Shikata ga nai.
Your father is parting you in amazing ways, Forrest. I'm learning from him.
Another aspect of estrangement that plays off of the the grievances from childhood of the adult child who estranged from a parent is a mental health diagnosis and drug addiction. Just as in a normal development, a teenage brain perceives things from the past differently if you add in these two factors, the estranged parent has a whole set of other circumstances to try to deal with. I would like to see an episode that focuses on adult children with mental health issues who estrange their parents. I know it is a much more complicated scenario but few people address those concerns and you two are just the ones to do it.! Specifically, my daughter was treated for borderline personality/bipolar disorder in her teens. As an adult she certainly has many of the main symptoms to a high degree of BPD, and some sort of mood disorder involving depression, but not necessarily bipolar episodes. Her black and white thinking takes over and there is no possibility of a rational discussion. add to the mix a 15-year-old granddaughter who has relied on me for support all her life and who was cut off from me, and later poisoned against me with tHess stories from my daughters childhood. Addressing grandparent grandchild alienation would be wonderful too!
Shirley, I too, have a estranged daughter diagnosed with BPD. It's been almost 7 years now and I feel the loss every day, even hour, every minute. My heart goes out to you
I would love to see an episode on Family Estrangement with child with a mental health diagnosis. It's rough
I am saving money to buy a year of BetterHelp counseling and pray she will utilize it.😭
I’d love to see people not blame BPD on children. Where do you think this mental illness comes from? Why do you think drugs are used to cope? Maybe there is alienation from the parents because they refuse to admit their abuse.
No one would alienate their own parents without damn good reason. It doesn’t just happen because they woke up one day and decided that their wonderful, loving, parents were evil. Give me a break.
I am this adult child , my problems were caused by parent speration at 9 years old that never botherd me you can't force love In fact it's not healthy to stay unhappy I get it but it was the way they handled it they hate each other cant be in same room so much conflict there I didn't understand and they'd put me in the middle of there bs I was very confused like I was meant to take a side as a 10 yr old but thats not the main issue my teenge years were a lot of manipulation ,actively being ignored because of jealousy from his new wife , and unpredictable rage from my father and his wifes narcissistic manipulating behavior, so mostly psychological abuse nothing seruously physical but i definitely had moments where I didn't feel safe and in danger from my those who are meant to protect me. To more recent times The first thing my father said when I tried to contact him he said well I don't get it we never hit you , I was just like in my head you don't get it you just don't get it at all I just want to be heard without them turning it around with aggressive defensiveness there egos are to damaged to let that happen , and the way I've copped with that is depression anxiety stress and then it eventually turned into addiction , I am at place now where I am good it's been 5 years and want to reach out I love my father but it's hard I don't think my heart can go through it again 😭 I hope there changed hoping time can heal that is all I am praying for , not to mention how they made me feel I was a burden to there lives and I'm the mature one one at least tries to reach out
I'm an adult child of estranged parents. I don't know where to start in this moment, but I'm finding the framework in which you and your Dad are presenting to be very cathartic for me. Thank you so much. I'd love to connect more as my 84 year old Dad is having mounting health issues. I'd like to share my story with you and your Dad if possible. Thank you and I hope you are finding joy in your days. ❤
My mother and I are estranged -- she tried to get in touch recently -- but I can't get over the last time we met -- that look of disgust on my mummy's face when I merely referred to myself as "gay" in conversation with my sister at the dining table -- it's so deeply painful, I feel it physically -- I am struggling without them, but I somehow can't bring myself to lower my standards, I'm not asking for much, accept me or lose me motha
EDIT:
55:59 -- I really truly appreciated this moment acknowledging other cultures -- as I'm South Asian too and sometimes these nuances aren't fully reflected in the content/help we seek and it can feel like something's missing -- so this was wonderful SUBSCRIBED
Thank you for such a nuanced, thoughtful dive into the variety of complexities that exist within this topic. Much appreciated.
A transformative process leads to change in speech and behavior.
Thanks, this was incredibly validating
We were told from experts what was best for our children. They were wrong. I wanted to help my child develop in a good way so I followed their advice. What things were like back then. What was okay then isn’t now..
The best part of the podcast was when the dad asked the questions starting at the 9:50 minute mark "what do we owe other people, what are our duties to other people and what duties do we have to an aging parent as adults ourselves who didn't fulfill all their duties to us when we were kids"? (I'm paraphrasing)
Why so?
I’ve been taking in a lot of information on this topic… You two did an amazing job. Thank you!!
The very best work is done here. Thank you for this work and heart.
part 2. My ex has been counter-parenting for years. I didn't know. He was saying awful untruths about me. The kids blamed me for his abuse. One adult child has gone no contact. Sometimes you take more than your responsibility. I prioritized the relationship so much, that I accepted their contempt for me.
I understand what you are saying about old age. My ex was physically threatening for years and yet I am the bad guy. I would rather be by myself, than accept any more abuse, even in old age.
I had a child that I made many many sacrifices to keep.
I considered abortion but chose to keep her.
She was the most head strong difficult child and at 23 she cut me off completely
She was pregnant and didnt include me in baby shower.
I wont be involved with my first grandchild now because of her continued inability to accept me as I am.
Shes very religious and I am not but she is embarrassed of me.
I wonder if she would have rather I aborted her, somedays I wonder why I did this to myself.
I tried to do the right thing by keeping her But it only made my life a living hell and still does.
Life is so hard sometimes
Its mostly family dynamics that cause so much strife.
I personally would like to point out that holding on to hurt and victim mentality wont help anyone.
You gotta let go for everyones sake
But it seems the mental health system encourages victim mentality and thats very unhealthy for both parent and child.
I get it, I had a similiar daughter. Feel your pain.
This conversation was extremely helpful and educating. Thank you.
Using non violent communication can really be useful when having difficult communication.
I really hear this Sabrina, the emotional temperature in meeting such territory can negatively impact clarity and compassion for self and other, self harm in supporting relationship too methinks 🤔🌻
@@gwenwalker6925 agreed. Appreciate your wording. 🌻
@@Counselingforlife90 90 9😊😮
This is fantastic! You have all my respect for your well thought out assessments and I especially live how you spoke of generalizations within a topic that is SO individualistic by nature. Bravo. Too many people pushing those generalizations onto grieving victims when that shoe does not fit.
Brilliant discussion and advice, thank you both.
A powerful and moving talk, thank you.
All families are fractured and dysfunctional in one way or another.
This was such a powerful podcast. Thank you.❤
All people - young and old - are the hostages of real life circumstances. We are all in one boat. There is a wide range of circumstances -- from historical to personal -- which influences us. Granted, there is free will but even with the best of intentions its role is limited. A child who thinks that he can pronounce verdict on his parents is just stupid. He can have an opinion and he has a right to self-defense (even to the point of breaking the relationship), but he can never be sure that his final judgment was right, that he knew all the background of his parents’ life, their struggles and motivations. To understand your parents is a stepping stone towards maturity and wisdom. Today’s parents are no worse than in the past but there is suddenly a growing number of children who decided to present themselves as victims of terrible abuse. Yes, parents need their children in their old age and suffer from abandonment, but their process of vilification by their children is almost done. Their children still have it ahead of them, probably by their own children. The stage is set. And one more thing. Abandoned parents are not just passively suffering. Their attitude towards their children is also changing. If after the years of "punishing" his parent the child decides to come back the parent may say "I don't know you anymore".
I think this video did a great job of giving a balanced view for both parties and attempted its best at covering different scenarios within the time restrictions. I wouldn't say I'm at the stage of cutting off my family from my life, but moving back in with my parents for financial reasons after living away for some years has been challenging. I have changed so much as a person due to being around different cultures and personalities, and especially after dating my current fiancé. Now that I am around them all the time I am afraid of undoing all the growing that I had worked so hard for.
I find it true as an adult child that it is easy to blame even well-meaning parents for the past. I know they were only trying their best, but when I learn that certain ways they communicate or act can be unhealthy, it makes me upset that I must learn how to combat it. I agree with the sentiment that Rick mentioned, that I sometimes miss my parents and the connection with them, but our now different habits and styles of communication seem to pose a rift. I understand it could also be a cultural difference, since my parents are 1st generation immigrants.
I’ll say that in my case, I feel that people’s tendency to side with my parents around my choice of estrangement often comes out of a sort of toxic benefit-of-the-doubt that lots of clinicians, counselors, etc are accustomed to doling out, often without a willingness to really sit with and be present for the sadism and injuries that that estrangement was meant to mitigate. I really wish there was more of a ubiquitous understanding of malignant narcissism and how its effects seem to require a specialized and different approach.
I hear you. Though when my mom decided to take me to counseling because she was positive I was the problem and they would fix my brokenness, she didn’t like what the therapist had to say to her after hearing what came out of a 8 year olds mouth.
So therapy ended.
Perhaps it’s better for a young child to speak because it can be so revealing in an innocent way. Truly I had no idea what should be said and shouldn’t, but not old enough to know I would have had better chances of survival in a foster care.
That therapist should have reported my mom, but back in that day it was uncommon. Even though she was able to see through my moms mask.
Thank you for this unbiased conversation.
This was a great and patient conversation. Thank you. It was one that I, patiently in bits, needed to hear myself and will turn to again and again.
I feel the love and respect. They are impressive-this was great.
Estrangement from your child is heartbreaking. Oftentimes, parents and families are cut off when your son or daughter marries someone who requires t them to cut off their families. This is what happened to us. I had a good relationship with my son until he met his wife. She avoided coming around and spent all of their time with her family. After 3 1/2 years, I have not seen or spoken to my son. He has 2 kids I have never met. He also has cut off his friends. I would have NEVER thought this would happen. To our family.
Brilliant!
Spot on again!👏 Amazing podcast, you two together, talking about different subjects is just a shot in the arm of "validation and acknowledgement" Thank you 🙏
At some point I understood that I would never be able to interact with my father without him yelling at me at some point, often out of frustration with his own life. Tried everything. At some point my children watched one of his spectacles and I suddenly realized how wrong this was. I cut him off. To this day, he will not admit to having ever yelled at me although I and multiple other people have witnessed it multiple times. Since the I feel so relieved and guilty for feeling predominantly relieved.
My mother is different. A lot of stuff went wrong. But she takes accountability and has changed her behaviors in some crucial ways so I could continue engaging with her. I really think it's about the ability to respect boundaries and take accountability and allowing me to have a relationship with her on my terms with changed dynamics.
Excellent discussion Gentlemen! Really fair and nuanced
The saying goes “You can’t pick your parents” but there is another saying seldom heard “You can’t pick your children” and sometimes children just don’t jive with their parents.
I've been estranged with both of my sons now for the past 2 years. We were very close until they were 37 and 34. They both got married and the new wives did not want me around. One son became a Conservative Christian and his new wife did not like that I was a Democrat and have liberal views. My other son married into a Mormon family and his new family did not like it that I was not willing to turn Mormon. I have let them both go to be with their new families. I don't want all of this drama in my life. I wish them all the best.
This is really good. I had to separate from a family member and it estranged me from a good bit of the rest and it's still not great. I like how you talked about the family unit you don't want to be a part of. I get that.
I found this discussion very helpful. I’d love it if you would discuss the dynamic of an adult child being influenced negatively toward their family by their spouse. A family which had very close relationships previously. There is what we perceive to be revisionist history. Child is estranged from friends and entire family. I understand we need to accept how our child feels at this moment, regardless of the way in which those feelings came about. I guess focus on the feelings, not the facts is in order. Such a difficult, sticky situation.
The last ten minutes best advice
“Parenting is a tragic undertaking.” Pretty much sums it up.
Thanks for joining RUclips, I sometimes forget to check your recent podcasts. I love your contact and am a faiful follower.
Kids suck, parents suck ,people suck. Don't reproduce. Human beings are incredibly fragile and the smallest wrong doing in their upbringing will have the parent dealing with a headache in the future. Kids are stressful, expensive and COMPLICATED. Get pets. They are incredibly forgiving.
I have to give this a thumbs up.