I didn't even want to skip anything I was just curious if you had made another video HOW DIDN'T I SEE THAT COMING ITS 2024 AND IM STILL GETTING RICKROLLED LMFAOOOOOO
NASB2 dev here lol, gotta say the criticism is very valid, animations and readability are things that require so much fine tuning to look good/work in fighting games, I think the work the Rivals2 team has put onto the game is absolutely amazing, the clean animations are among the best in any fighting game I've played overall. I really hope the game lives for as long as possible, cuase I'm having a ton of fun with it 👏🏻
That's so hilarious that you would even imply vaguely that animations and readability are why the game failed but I guess you could pick anything from the list of thousands like my God you literally dropped the worst platform fighter of all time not just pretty bad, the worst. Glad you found some cope though.
@@NachoRunsI love NASB 2 the slime meter was the best thing ever made for a platform fighter (I haven’t played Rivals 2 yet) I really want to know what happened or at least your story on what happened to the game why did Nickelodeon do you guys so dirty I just gotta know until I play rivals 2 next to smash I believe NASB 2 is the best PF out there
@@Caketurtle7No lol. Ranno players are either Crayon eating spammers that are free to beat but insufferable to play against anyways, OR movement gods with the best frame data and combos/extensions… and they are insufferable to play against.
Yeah, I love that it's not relying on anything but its own brand and BUILDING that brand. I can't wait to see Clairen and Kragg as household names people actually recognize. Starting to see it in the furry community (of course). Even when Lovers of Aether came out, furries just didn't draw stuff from this franchise 'cuz they weren't aware of it. Now I'm starting to see a lot of art of the characters, and it warms my heart. Aether Studios is growing on a brand level, and furries are the early adopters of its image. Can't wait to see it go mainstream.
Dan Fornance, you've really put out your best thought piece yet. 8:30 I swear you said the thing that just wasn't being said. Personally, I never understood why "lack of VA" became the calling card for NASB's (or other platfighter's) downfall when the missing key frames, position snapping, and overall lack of 'visual continuity' were right there. Most other platfighter developers seemed to display a philosophy that mechanical complexity will allow for visual clarity to be forgiven, but I'd say that's really only acceptable for the most staunch fighting game enthusiasts (except for Multiversus, which was visually... fine? just a wack take in many other areas haha)
Right you are, just like how Multiversus is rotten to the core despite looking polished and starting with voice work from iconic VAs. NASB had core issues beyond that. I'd say Dan wasn't the only one to get it right though recently, Slap City is frequently ignored.
14:14 Alright... Dan Fornace. Gonna have to defend Hyperborean Harbor here. I'm with Mockrock (cite his FD video) that we need more stages that challenge the competitive stage mindset and focuses more on terrain mastery. Given how sterile and soft stagelists tend to be.
I may be a bit outta line here, but I'm sincerely hoping for larger, more complex stage terrain. On Smash, for instance, even though I always prefer to turn off stage hazards, items, and final smashes for a more competitive playstyle, some of my favorite stages were the temple stages from Zelda and Kid Icarus. There's nothing quite bouncing people off walls, ceiling, and slopes, as well as figuring out how to tech off them. I just don't know though if the game engine can support slopes.
@@affluenzashot There's a number of things this game could do to pull in the casual crowd without hurting the competitive community, and that's one of them. Items would be great too. Even just bringing back the Abyss Mode stuff from the first one would do wonders. You don't have to sacrifice core gameplay to make a fun game. Just look at Melee and how well that did both BOTH sides! So yes, fully agreed.
Hey Adam, Great to see you posting! I felt a similar way when I first got my hands on Rivals 2 during Next fest, Mainly didn't like the lack of wall jumps and the addition of shields (Mostly because of how it deemphasizes parry as a mechanic). But I bought it on release day(Got to support You(Dan Fournacey) and the gang) and kept playing, Now I've fallen in love with it. I think my lizard brain felt like CHANGE BAD, but once I got over the changes, RIVALS GOOD. I made a frame data app for Rivals years ago, I messaged you and asked for a paragraph on why you play Maypul to include in the app for new players, I asked a bunch of pro players or content creators to do the same for their mains. Most people ignored me completely and I never bothered adding that feature to the app, so I've always felt like I just wasted your time. I Just felt like now was a good time to say Thank you, you're a real one.
I think what I love most about Rivals 2, as someone coming from Ultimate and Rivals 1, with a bit of Melee experience, is that it's special in a way that smash just isn't by nature of who it's designed for. Rivals 2, no matter what the game state is, as long as it's being supported with balance patches, has unlimited potential, and that's really special to me. It's the only fighting game where I feel like all the things I dislike can be completely changed for the better in the next patch without completely ruining it for someone else, and that encourages you to deal with the bs while it exists as it will make you better. My current biggest complaint with the game is a perfect example of what I mean, and that is that the game, especially to someone coming in without playing in the beta, and only going off my prior experiences with the genre, is that certain characters, moves, or mechanics, just feel sizably better or abusable, and people having a lot more time to discover that kind of imbalances early ranked, but that's not something I personally care about as I still know what I'm doing and don't struggle, I just see others who do. A big offender of this is Zetterburn, who has one of the best moves in shine, which feels like one of the few moves that is safe and even advantageous on shield, a kill throw? For some reason? And the character doesn't really struggle with finding kills without fire at an average percent for the cast, which makes his average kill threshold a lot lower thanks to fire, including his kill throw that he can easily get out of shine. It's not something that completely breaks the game, it is a complete skill issue, and any truth behind what I said is easily possible to balance in patches, but having such oppressive interactions has already had me see some people drop the game which is really sad, because the game really is so amazing. To summarize, I'd say the only issue that R2 has at the moment that feels like it needs a change, is that its competitive design makes the game a little more frustrating for newcomers than other platform fighters, and a big part of that just revolves around character balancing, where to new players, the characters with the fastest moves will just always win. That being said, I think that this being the only issue I have with the game, and it being an issue I have because of struggles I don't have but can easily understand, is super impressive for the launch of the game, and I can't wait to see how this game evolves over time with the love it's getting.
im curious, how is its ability to change unique to it compared to all other fighting games? I'm just curious like why do you think it is more capable of change than any other.
@@lockevalentine997 I think compared to other platform fighters specifically it has most potential, and that is because of a few reasons R2 is very similar in structure to smash, in a way it's like a sequel, and that familiarity draws more attention and gives it more longevity to start. The game is very community driven, it is balanced by devs who care for and support their competitive scene, in fact most paid content in R1 ended up contributing to tournament prizing for its scene, so it will consider what people deem unfair on a competitive level instead of what devs deem unfair on a more general level. Finally, every character in R2 is created by Aether studios, they don't have any rules to adhere to and don't have to represent more than themselves, so they can be heavily altered to suit a competitive setting. A great example with this was R1 introducing a whole new game mechanic in whiff lag to balance out a lot of the faster characters, they could change major parts of a character or a game mechanic and as long as it is received well enough they have that freedom. A lot of fighters intend to make characters worth playing without making them broken, rivals makes the characters so broken that they're worth playing, and when that applies to everyone it has balance, they have so much potential in a similar way to fighting games that platform fighters just don't have
You and I share a lot of thoughts about this game. It's incredibly special, and I cannot wait to see the future it has in store. Even if this is your last video about it, I'm glad we got to hear from you again, love you a lot dude
Im justa melee player that loved Rivals 1, really happy to see you posting again, I tryed to make Rivals content 7 years ago and you were really the only inspiration on this platform. You show such an authentic relationship with the game. Hope to see more platform-fighting based content from you, cause there aint nobody else
Crouch cancelling is a nightmare in Project M and it being in this game deeply saddens me. One of the biggest mistakes they've made towards an otherwise good looking title.
Totally agreed that “Rivals is Rivals because of the character design” I would also add that it’s the agency that makes Rivals what it is. Drift DI gave you agency during knockback. Wall jump out of special fall gave you limited agency during free fall. Etc. Floorhugging makes half of each character’s moveset sub-optimal- even at higher percents for a lot of ‘combo starters’ like Jabs and Tilts. This effectively reduces the viability of not only a ton of moves, but also each of the characters across the cast. With the removal of Drift DI as well as a ton of little changes like the increased wavedash endlag and the removal of jump canceling landing lag, the game also takes away agency where we had it before. Since both the viability of character movesets and the agency have been linited, Rivals 2 objectively has more moments where you have ZERO control over your character than in Rivals 1. This leads to more Touch of Death Combos, a higher barrier to entry than Rivals 1 (which was already comically high), and a significantly less explosive gameplay. I still like Rivals 2, but I don’t see myself having that “This is Rivals” feeling until these things are changed, and the devs explicitly stated that they don’t want to change them.
@ If a combo relies on an opponent missing a reactive input, then it’s an untrue combo. In Smash Combo Contests, judges don’t count combos that rely on tech chasing because it’s possible to reactively break out of the combo with a proper tech. Floorhugging, much like teching, is a reaction that can break out of combos. Unlike teching though, there’s nearly zero endlag to the animation of floorhugging and no opportunity to punish. Losing neutral because you won neutral with ‘sub-optimal move’ isn’t nuanced. It’s tedious.
i absolutely agree with the whole thing where back in the backer beta days i was really on the fence of whether i would be loving the game or not everything was so familiar yet so alien, i felt really out of my element but that's just because i thought i'd be playing rivals 1, when in fact it was a whole different game, as it should be now that the game has come out and i've applied a basic fighting game learning process to the things i was bad at so i would improve at them. it's fine, i'm having fun, the game's great as you said, rivals never was about the lack of shields or ledges, while that definitely made it stand out more among other games of the genre, it's not like the new games doesn't have its fair share of these mechanics either and it's really the character that are just so well thought through that make the game what it is and if you look at rivals 1 back when it came out, the visual fidelity, half the cast size, and even back then you were able to feel that passion, that strong vision and it's not like you can't just go back to rivals 1 once in a while and play that, the game still exists and it definitely still has its merits with being less complex, less visually stimulating but overall rivals 2 definitely is a good evolution of the formula, and i really hope that it succeeds in the way rivals 1 did in its day although it would be funny if they added like a retro gamemode that reverted all the big changes removed ledges and shields, brought back the old recovery and stuff around the same point in the lifespan as tetherball maybe
14:11 Honestly, I never expected to see Adam Carra in this video! It was pretty hard to tell the difference between him and Dan Fornace, though. Maybe that's just me.
I agree with you on the animation being great but I'm still really sad about the transition to 3d - I MASSIVELY prefer the sprite art/32bit aesthetic of rivals 1. And now I feel like I can't go back because no one will be playing it, or at least the remaining people are all massively better than me to the point of frustration.
There's still quite a few people playing rivals 1, if you look at steamcharts it even looks like the playerbase has barely been affected at all by the sequel coming out, the numbers are pretty much the same as before
I'm really glad that you drew attention to the importance of presentation, because I really do agree. Impact and animation are so, so important, and they're what make the game feel good to play. That being said, I also think that's at the root of why people have so much frustration with floorhugging. Other defensive mechanics like shields or parries maintain the meatiness of your hits. Floorhugging, on the other hand, makes it feel like you're punching a bowl of jello. It just *feels* bad, which is something that I think gets lost when people immediately start waving at balance and counterplay. (Also, boiling all criticism down to "different = bad" feels... kinda unfair to people trying to discuss the game? Like, I've definitely seen people warm up to the new shield and ledge mechanics, they're cool! But something being new and different doesn't automatically make it fun, y'know?)
To your point at 12:07, I think it's a fair evaluation that options that worked in Rivals 1 (because of a lack of low % game) won't work as well in Rivals 2. My one "issue" (which is the same as yours) really is that the only great answer is often grab to these things. There's spacing and dash dance too, but sometimes it feels like getting opened up for winning neutral does feel not great. Obviously, the meta will evolve, but I agree on your complaint that grab is often the best option in those early % situations which is a bit limiting in gameplay.
Seconding this, 100%. The presence of linear counterplay doesn't make that linear counterplay feel satisfying or fun, especially when the mechanic you're having to beat is way more visually subtle than something like a shield
Man i missed your humor so much. Only recently watched the peak rivals direct again (the one with tHe MiLeStOnE sYsTeM 😂) and that combined with how much i'm laughing tears in my eyes watching this video again i really hope to encourage you to maybe do a new video every once in a while 🤗
Been rewatching a lot of your old videos as well as the rivals directs, and I’m just happy to see more from you. I’m not even a rivals 1 player. Your content is unique and has a special voice. Thank you, Dan.
I’m so glad to see him back. As I looked back at rivals 1 I remember Adam being a very prominent character, with some of the best made videos on rivals 1. Very glad to see this. Even if it’s just one video
My problem with Rivals 2 is a lot of the changes don't feel _better_. It feels like they changed things just to be more "familiar" to Smash players without considering whether it makes the game better. Like ledges. In Rivals 1, recovery wasn't intuitive _for smash players_ because there's no ledge. So they add a ledge, but now recovery is too powerful. Ok... so how about no wall jump? Players got mad, so now there is a wall jump except in weirdly specific scenarios where you can't wall jump. Now wall jump has a bunch of hidden rules that make it feel weird and unintuitive, whereas in Rivals 1... you get to the wall and press jump. Straightforward, consistent, intuitive, and (once you get used to it) easy. (as a side note - with ledges comes _ledgedash_, which is a whole new conversation on how broken ledge mechanics can be...) Like removing drift DI. Rivals 1 had drift DI, which is much easier to learn and execute than the traditional hitlag-only DI Smash had. Rivals 1 took years to balance drift DI. There's a lot of things like stage size and blastzone distance that were built with drift DI in mind. Rivals 2 takes it out... and now stages feel _tiny_. Knockback was scaled down, but because the blastzones are still close you can die while moving _very_ slowly in the air. I get a lot of those "Oh I died?" moments in Rivals 2 because the knockback feels _so_ low, but the blastzones are so close that it doesn't matter. There are a lot of changes that are very good, things that address significant weaknesses in Rivals 1's gameplay. Initial dash is a thing now, so spacing (and by extension, dash dancing) actually matters. Shields were desperately needed, and of course grabs naturally follow. The 3D art style (theoretically) makes development much smoother, as it's easier to build out a larger moveset by keyframing a rigged 3D model (as opposed to 2D where you have to draw an entire sprite sheet for every new animation). It's those good changes that make me wish I could like the game, but it's those bad changes that have become fundamental game mechanics that make me think I never will.
I think there are issues with depth in rivals 1 defensive play that makes melee particularly unique imo (other than no buffer ofc), something rivals players don't seem to want to admit (I played rivals 1 as well) is that the lack of defensive options made it so the core of the neutral and defensive play boiled down to camping with your movement on platforms which came with its own issues
@@lostmycat5671 You're right, and the changes that address that are the changes I like. Things like adding shields, crouch canceling (it got a lot of hate in beta, but it's a good mechanic), lag on wavedash, and limiting options during initial dash. But the offstage game in Rivals 1 was _more_ interesting than Melee because of the lack of a ledge. Drift DI is _more_ intuitive (and more effective) than regular DI, which leads to enhanced defensive play in combos and more deliberate decision making on offense. Changing these aspects of Rivals was, in my opinion, a _terrible_ decision made only to appeal to Smash players. It makes the game less interesting and less unique.
8:20 as a game artist myself, I agree. Couldn't stand playing any other plat fighter 'til now except smash cus they all look terrible and did not appeal to me at all. Mainly animations is so damn important to make it feel like a good experience. The team has done an amazing job with this one! :)
I was looking for a video from you! I'm sorry you had to deal with some many hurdles personally. I'm glad you are posting about the game and your experiences!
I've been playing since the start of the betas, I still hate floorhugging, I can understand not everything being safe at low percent but that's way too much, 60-80 isn't supposed to be early percent, I much prefer the "quantity" of unsafeness you've got in ultimate (where early percent is from 0 to 30 on most characters and only restrict about a 3rd of your moveset, whereas in rivals it can last until 50-70, it blocks over half your moveset, and some moves are still unusable at 80-90). Also keep in mind that getting punished on hit is an even bigger no-go to trad fighters players than it is to players from "safe-early percent" platfighters like rivals 1 or ult (which is made even worse when you consider you've got so many defensive options in this game, from the oponent perspective you can have failed to win neutral even though you had shield, parry, air dodge, shmovement, roll, spotdodge and crouch cancelling, and still win the interaction because you decided you wanted to have fun and not play a game that only consist of grab and Zetter's down air).
@@riplix20 I have mostly wins on Zetterburn mains... I wasn't complaining that he was broken, even though he has some things that are individually broken (like fireball being just too quick so you can't really react parry, and just slow enough so he can catch up with it to follow up with a grab after it hits) the character as a whole is like top 3 but not above that (tho it's one of the most boring characters to play against imo) And they're not completely like this yet, people haven't already fully adapted to floorhugging.
Aye, he's back! So far, been enjoying Rivals 2, it truly feels like on the most polished Plat Fighters out there and the one alternative to Smash a lot of more casual players have been looking for. The future is bright given it sold 100,000 copies already! Hope to see more of you later on.
This is a game I'm gonna have a good amount of fun with just goofing around in friendlies, but I really don't see myself paying money to enter events. I'm at a low enough level of play that it really feels like my only consistent path to learning how to beat people who are decent at using cc/fh is to play grabs of aether, and i dont wanna play that.
I remember that one of your complaints in Rivals 1 was that Wrastor could just put up slipstream for free and the opponent couldn't do anything about it. I don't know if they fixed that in Rivals 2 because of you, but either way, thank you for doing your part in nerfing the bird 🙏
I love how R2 isn't really trying to shove R1 out of its own spotlight. Sure there's a lot of release hype atm but if they play their cards right (they being you, Mr. Dan Fornace, and the rest of the Aether crew) I could totally see a universe in which R2 and R1 coexist
Yeeeaaah I really don't like that low percent boils down to fishing for grabs In rivals 1, you had so many options to start combos Now it's like... wow! Non-grab low percent combos don't exist! You are required to either poke at a distance or fish for a grab, it really really limits how much you can do until mid to high percents Not to mention crouch canceling and floor hugging contributing to this issue Idk getting true punished for winning neutral and hitting my opponent is just... bad
I love that stage you hate at the end I like that it challenges how you are used to recovering, ultimately it just gets you more familiar with the options in your toolkit that translates to recovering at the other stages too
Hey Dan Fornace Creator of the Super Furry Fighters great video! Just wondering if the Milestone System will make a return in Rivals of the toothfairy?
Damn, great video. It is a special game. I haven't ever played any other platform fighter online. I did with Rivals2 in the first hour, for some reason. It's great.
Man im so glad to see a rivals 2 from you! You were the only rivals content creator i watched and now im watching a bunch of them with rivals 2. Also yeah i hate harbor stage so much too lmao I always have it banned
The whole graphics thing - preach brother! A lot of people will probably say it's not important. I, as a potato pc user, always considered graphics not important because I'd have rhem set to min anyway. But with every platform fighter I've seen on pc besides Slap City, I took a single look at them and my brain instantly said "Yeah, this game looks like shit, it's gonna die in a month".
Hey adam your expirience with rivals two reminds me of everyone having to adjust to doom eternal from doom 2016, all the community on luanch hated it because it wasnt what the old game was but over time the things i hated in the game stopped bothering me and I learnched to work with the new game mechanics.
Yes absolutely great takes, I felt very similar when I played my first Rivals 2 beta actually. Things felt weird and different, but after a few hours it all clicked into place.
Thanks Dan Fornace for posting. It's been too long! Also the ice stage is annoying but the air stage that has no walls at all? That stage can exit via the moon door along with Wrastor.
Rivals 1 is always gonna have a special place in my heart, but 2 is fantastic and I’m so glad that it’s got its own identity and that it has as much attention on it as it does. Though I think the big reason why so many people are at each other’s throats on twitter is because everyone has an idea of what the game “should be” based on whatever game they originally came from. I’ve got confidence though that the devs are gonna find that perfect middle ground that they’ve been trying to find for all this time, for a first version of the game I think they’ve gotten incredibly close to it and it’s great to see them try so many different things over the course of the betas up to the full release
By "got it's own identity" you mean "has the identity of PM and Melee stapled onto it" It doesn't really have it's own identity besides still being """Rivals""" in name, and having hitfalling and better characters.
In my review of rivals 2 (on my community tab) as a long time player I didn’t really talk about visuals, but I can’t deny that rivals 2 honestly is a really good looking game even if I am disappointed otherwise.
I love love love rivals 2 and loads of my friends that were intimidated by 1 have loved 2 but i do miss the up air to up air to up air to up air 0-60 percent combos every character had. Also shovel knight was my favourite character from any fighting game ever and I want him back
Missed you Adam. Missed your special kind of videos. Missed your unique perspective. Missed your stupid jokes that you continue to make over and over. Think there's a lot more for you to say, so hope you'll continue to do so
Im loving rivals 2, my experience with platform fighters is 1000 hours in smash ultimate and 200 hours in rivals 1. This game just feels like it was meant for me. It just combines these two games that I love to perfection, and is even bringing back the same hype for each character being added that I had from the fighter's passes.
I think that is the piece that guarantees no single character can just outright delete you at lower percents without resetting with grabs or using stronger moves to get you out of the ground? I really don’t see the issue, but yet again I am still around high gold/low plat
The thing you say about the "Low percent game" I would be much more on board with if low percent ended around 40% the way it does in Melee. But like Im seeing high level players doing ASDI Down punishes on tilts at 80-90 percent, jabs getting beaten by holding down at 150. Like the its not "Bread and butter jabs and tilts dont work at low percent" its "bread and butter jabs and tilts dont work at any percent that theyll actually combo effectively at" Which just leads as you mentioned to the centralization of grabs INSTEAD of the centralization of jabs and tilts. If anything it homogenizes combo game at low percent because grab combo starters are a lot more spacing consistent than tilt combo starters, especially with the more whiffpunish centric neutral of R1.
If you want to skip straight to my actual thoughts on the game you can go here --->
ruclips.net/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/видео.html
I hate u, I know that url better than anyone
That’s the first time someone has done that to me in like five years x.x
I didn't even want to skip anything I was just curious if you had made another video HOW DIDN'T I SEE THAT COMING ITS 2024 AND IM STILL GETTING RICKROLLED LMFAOOOOOO
I usually recognize that link, but I had so much trust in you I just clicked on it without looking at it
Nice cameo of Turna Round & Go Funk Yo Self
Thank you Dan Fornace, creator of Rivals of Twother, for your valuable insight. Please remove Wrastor from the game.
LOL
You owe my family funeral expenses, I'm dead
NOOO POOR BERDLEY 😭
Bird is the word
so true
"i'm mad, I'm bad, I'm Dan fornace"
NASB2 dev here lol, gotta say the criticism is very valid, animations and readability are things that require so much fine tuning to look good/work in fighting games, I think the work the Rivals2 team has put onto the game is absolutely amazing, the clean animations are among the best in any fighting game I've played overall. I really hope the game lives for as long as possible, cuase I'm having a ton of fun with it 👏🏻
Thank you for your hard work on the game, but do you think they will drop the last patch any time soon?😊
That's so hilarious that you would even imply vaguely that animations and readability are why the game failed but I guess you could pick anything from the list of thousands like my God you literally dropped the worst platform fighter of all time not just pretty bad, the worst. Glad you found some cope though.
@@YoungSimbaFGC Latest patch just came out today!
@@NachoRunsI love NASB 2 the slime meter was the best thing ever made for a platform fighter (I haven’t played Rivals 2 yet) I really want to know what happened or at least your story on what happened to the game why did Nickelodeon do you guys so dirty I just gotta know until I play rivals 2 next to smash I believe NASB 2 is the best PF out there
@@YoucantrespondNasb 2 is good actually. Just an unfortunate case of being the predecessor of a game with dwindling popularity
Can't believe Dan Fornace is on a first name basis with Dan Fornace.
It’s been 3,000 years…
More like 2,999
@@AdamCarra Oh how I've missed you...
Thank you Dan Fornace for creating my favorite furry game. Please remove Wrastor from the game.
Wrastor is literally the most fair and underpowered character though? Remove Ranno
@@Huckle777🤨🤨🤨
@@Huckle777are u baiting??
@@Caketurtle7No lol.
Ranno players are either Crayon eating spammers that are free to beat but insufferable to play against anyways, OR movement gods with the best frame data and combos/extensions… and they are insufferable to play against.
@@Caketurtle7 No? Nobody even plays Wrastor lmfao
Rivals has characters that the audience is actually anticipating being added. That’s huge.
They’re adding Dinock to Rivals 2?
Yeah, I love that it's not relying on anything but its own brand and BUILDING that brand. I can't wait to see Clairen and Kragg as household names people actually recognize.
Starting to see it in the furry community (of course). Even when Lovers of Aether came out, furries just didn't draw stuff from this franchise 'cuz they weren't aware of it. Now I'm starting to see a lot of art of the characters, and it warms my heart. Aether Studios is growing on a brand level, and furries are the early adopters of its image. Can't wait to see it go mainstream.
still holding out hope for bhadra lol
bring back ice bear boi pls
When will we finally see waluigi in rivals 2?
Return of the King and the King's having fun with the game, good timeline 👍
Dan Fornance, you've really put out your best thought piece yet.
8:30 I swear you said the thing that just wasn't being said. Personally, I never understood why "lack of VA" became the calling card for NASB's (or other platfighter's) downfall when the missing key frames, position snapping, and overall lack of 'visual continuity' were right there. Most other platfighter developers seemed to display a philosophy that mechanical complexity will allow for visual clarity to be forgiven, but I'd say that's really only acceptable for the most staunch fighting game enthusiasts (except for Multiversus, which was visually... fine? just a wack take in many other areas haha)
Right you are, just like how Multiversus is rotten to the core despite looking polished and starting with voice work from iconic VAs. NASB had core issues beyond that.
I'd say Dan wasn't the only one to get it right though recently, Slap City is frequently ignored.
14:14
Alright... Dan Fornace.
Gonna have to defend Hyperborean Harbor here.
I'm with Mockrock (cite his FD video) that we need more stages that challenge the competitive stage mindset and focuses more on terrain mastery.
Given how sterile and soft stagelists tend to be.
I agree. Hyperborean Harbor is difficult but great. It's a fantastic counterpick stage.
@@SamWeltzin Those damn ledges challenge the Melee brain but I'm super excited to see the types of counterpicks it provides.
I may be a bit outta line here, but I'm sincerely hoping for larger, more complex stage terrain. On Smash, for instance, even though I always prefer to turn off stage hazards, items, and final smashes for a more competitive playstyle, some of my favorite stages were the temple stages from Zelda and Kid Icarus. There's nothing quite bouncing people off walls, ceiling, and slopes, as well as figuring out how to tech off them. I just don't know though if the game engine can support slopes.
@@affluenzashot There's a number of things this game could do to pull in the casual crowd without hurting the competitive community, and that's one of them. Items would be great too. Even just bringing back the Abyss Mode stuff from the first one would do wonders.
You don't have to sacrifice core gameplay to make a fun game. Just look at Melee and how well that did both BOTH sides!
So yes, fully agreed.
We love Hyperborean Harbor 🗣️🗣️
Hey Adam, Great to see you posting!
I felt a similar way when I first got my hands on Rivals 2 during Next fest, Mainly didn't like the lack of wall jumps and the addition of shields (Mostly because of how it deemphasizes parry as a mechanic). But I bought it on release day(Got to support You(Dan Fournacey) and the gang) and kept playing, Now I've fallen in love with it. I think my lizard brain felt like CHANGE BAD, but once I got over the changes, RIVALS GOOD.
I made a frame data app for Rivals years ago, I messaged you and asked for a paragraph on why you play Maypul to include in the app for new players, I asked a bunch of pro players or content creators to do the same for their mains. Most people ignored me completely and I never bothered adding that feature to the app, so I've always felt like I just wasted your time. I Just felt like now was a good time to say Thank you, you're a real one.
When the world needed him most.... he returned
With all the new RUclipsrs popping up with Rivals 2, its exciting to see the Goat back to maintain his crown!
I think what I love most about Rivals 2, as someone coming from Ultimate and Rivals 1, with a bit of Melee experience, is that it's special in a way that smash just isn't by nature of who it's designed for. Rivals 2, no matter what the game state is, as long as it's being supported with balance patches, has unlimited potential, and that's really special to me. It's the only fighting game where I feel like all the things I dislike can be completely changed for the better in the next patch without completely ruining it for someone else, and that encourages you to deal with the bs while it exists as it will make you better.
My current biggest complaint with the game is a perfect example of what I mean, and that is that the game, especially to someone coming in without playing in the beta, and only going off my prior experiences with the genre, is that certain characters, moves, or mechanics, just feel sizably better or abusable, and people having a lot more time to discover that kind of imbalances early ranked, but that's not something I personally care about as I still know what I'm doing and don't struggle, I just see others who do. A big offender of this is Zetterburn, who has one of the best moves in shine, which feels like one of the few moves that is safe and even advantageous on shield, a kill throw? For some reason? And the character doesn't really struggle with finding kills without fire at an average percent for the cast, which makes his average kill threshold a lot lower thanks to fire, including his kill throw that he can easily get out of shine. It's not something that completely breaks the game, it is a complete skill issue, and any truth behind what I said is easily possible to balance in patches, but having such oppressive interactions has already had me see some people drop the game which is really sad, because the game really is so amazing.
To summarize, I'd say the only issue that R2 has at the moment that feels like it needs a change, is that its competitive design makes the game a little more frustrating for newcomers than other platform fighters, and a big part of that just revolves around character balancing, where to new players, the characters with the fastest moves will just always win. That being said, I think that this being the only issue I have with the game, and it being an issue I have because of struggles I don't have but can easily understand, is super impressive for the launch of the game, and I can't wait to see how this game evolves over time with the love it's getting.
im curious, how is its ability to change unique to it compared to all other fighting games? I'm just curious like why do you think it is more capable of change than any other.
@@lockevalentine997 I think compared to other platform fighters specifically it has most potential, and that is because of a few reasons
R2 is very similar in structure to smash, in a way it's like a sequel, and that familiarity draws more attention and gives it more longevity to start.
The game is very community driven, it is balanced by devs who care for and support their competitive scene, in fact most paid content in R1 ended up contributing to tournament prizing for its scene, so it will consider what people deem unfair on a competitive level instead of what devs deem unfair on a more general level.
Finally, every character in R2 is created by Aether studios, they don't have any rules to adhere to and don't have to represent more than themselves, so they can be heavily altered to suit a competitive setting. A great example with this was R1 introducing a whole new game mechanic in whiff lag to balance out a lot of the faster characters, they could change major parts of a character or a game mechanic and as long as it is received well enough they have that freedom. A lot of fighters intend to make characters worth playing without making them broken, rivals makes the characters so broken that they're worth playing, and when that applies to everyone it has balance, they have so much potential in a similar way to fighting games that platform fighters just don't have
*Thanks Dan, you made such a cute game and your points are so valid, much love and big kisses on the forehead*
I had never seen Rivals II with the Super Smash Bros. Brawl artstyle, and I'm glad that artstyle was changed. Thank you, Dan Fornace
You and I share a lot of thoughts about this game. It's incredibly special, and I cannot wait to see the future it has in store. Even if this is your last video about it, I'm glad we got to hear from you again, love you a lot dude
Im justa melee player that loved Rivals 1, really happy to see you posting again, I tryed to make Rivals content 7 years ago and you were really the only inspiration on this platform. You show such an authentic relationship with the game. Hope to see more platform-fighting based content from you, cause there aint nobody else
Crouch cancelling is a nightmare in Project M and it being in this game deeply saddens me. One of the biggest mistakes they've made towards an otherwise good looking title.
Totally agreed that “Rivals is Rivals because of the character design” I would also add that it’s the agency that makes Rivals what it is.
Drift DI gave you agency during knockback. Wall jump out of special fall gave you limited agency during free fall. Etc.
Floorhugging makes half of each character’s moveset sub-optimal- even at higher percents for a lot of ‘combo starters’ like Jabs and Tilts. This effectively reduces the viability of not only a ton of moves, but also each of the characters across the cast.
With the removal of Drift DI as well as a ton of little changes like the increased wavedash endlag and the removal of jump canceling landing lag, the game also takes away agency where we had it before.
Since both the viability of character movesets and the agency have been linited, Rivals 2 objectively has more moments where you have ZERO control over your character than in Rivals 1. This leads to more Touch of Death Combos, a higher barrier to entry than Rivals 1 (which was already comically high), and a significantly less explosive gameplay.
I still like Rivals 2, but I don’t see myself having that “This is Rivals” feeling until these things are changed, and the devs explicitly stated that they don’t want to change them.
I disagree with floor hugging I think that aspect need a nerf, other that good comment
@ If a combo relies on an opponent missing a reactive input, then it’s an untrue combo.
In Smash Combo Contests, judges don’t count combos that rely on tech chasing because it’s possible to reactively break out of the combo with a proper tech.
Floorhugging, much like teching, is a reaction that can break out of combos. Unlike teching though, there’s nearly zero endlag to the animation of floorhugging and no opportunity to punish.
Losing neutral because you won neutral with ‘sub-optimal move’ isn’t nuanced. It’s tedious.
You put it into words perfectly
i absolutely agree with the whole thing where back in the backer beta days i was really on the fence of whether i would be loving the game or not
everything was so familiar yet so alien, i felt really out of my element
but that's just because i thought i'd be playing rivals 1, when in fact it was a whole different game, as it should be
now that the game has come out and i've applied a basic fighting game learning process to the things i was bad at so i would improve at them. it's fine, i'm having fun, the game's great
as you said, rivals never was about the lack of shields or ledges, while that definitely made it stand out more among other games of the genre, it's not like the new games doesn't have its fair share of these mechanics either
and it's really the character that are just so well thought through that make the game what it is
and if you look at rivals 1 back when it came out, the visual fidelity, half the cast size, and even back then you were able to feel that passion, that strong vision
and it's not like you can't just go back to rivals 1 once in a while and play that, the game still exists
and it definitely still has its merits with being less complex, less visually stimulating
but overall rivals 2 definitely is a good evolution of the formula, and i really hope that it succeeds in the way rivals 1 did in its day
although it would be funny if they added like a retro gamemode that reverted all the big changes
removed ledges and shields, brought back the old recovery and stuff
around the same point in the lifespan as tetherball maybe
14:11 Honestly, I never expected to see Adam Carra in this video! It was pretty hard to tell the difference between him and Dan Fornace, though. Maybe that's just me.
I agree with you on the animation being great but I'm still really sad about the transition to 3d - I MASSIVELY prefer the sprite art/32bit aesthetic of rivals 1. And now I feel like I can't go back because no one will be playing it, or at least the remaining people are all massively better than me to the point of frustration.
There's still quite a few people playing rivals 1, if you look at steamcharts it even looks like the playerbase has barely been affected at all by the sequel coming out, the numbers are pretty much the same as before
@fatyoshi696 that's encouraging at least
@@fatyoshi696tbf, Rivals 1 still has Workshop. Something Rivals 2 lacks.
Thank you Dan Fornace, creator of Doki Doki Literature Club. Please add Goku in Great Ape form.
I'm really glad that you drew attention to the importance of presentation, because I really do agree. Impact and animation are so, so important, and they're what make the game feel good to play.
That being said, I also think that's at the root of why people have so much frustration with floorhugging. Other defensive mechanics like shields or parries maintain the meatiness of your hits. Floorhugging, on the other hand, makes it feel like you're punching a bowl of jello. It just *feels* bad, which is something that I think gets lost when people immediately start waving at balance and counterplay.
(Also, boiling all criticism down to "different = bad" feels... kinda unfair to people trying to discuss the game? Like, I've definitely seen people warm up to the new shield and ledge mechanics, they're cool! But something being new and different doesn't automatically make it fun, y'know?)
To your point at 12:07, I think it's a fair evaluation that options that worked in Rivals 1 (because of a lack of low % game) won't work as well in Rivals 2. My one "issue" (which is the same as yours) really is that the only great answer is often grab to these things. There's spacing and dash dance too, but sometimes it feels like getting opened up for winning neutral does feel not great. Obviously, the meta will evolve, but I agree on your complaint that grab is often the best option in those early % situations which is a bit limiting in gameplay.
Seconding this, 100%. The presence of linear counterplay doesn't make that linear counterplay feel satisfying or fun, especially when the mechanic you're having to beat is way more visually subtle than something like a shield
The cackle that left my body at 0:18
Man i missed your humor so much. Only recently watched the peak rivals direct again (the one with tHe MiLeStOnE sYsTeM 😂) and that combined with how much i'm laughing tears in my eyes watching this video again i really hope to encourage you to maybe do a new video every once in a while 🤗
Been rewatching a lot of your old videos as well as the rivals directs, and I’m just happy to see more from you. I’m not even a rivals 1 player. Your content is unique and has a special voice. Thank you, Dan.
I’m so glad to see him back. As I looked back at rivals 1 I remember Adam being a very prominent character, with some of the best made videos on rivals 1. Very glad to see this. Even if it’s just one video
My problem with Rivals 2 is a lot of the changes don't feel _better_. It feels like they changed things just to be more "familiar" to Smash players without considering whether it makes the game better.
Like ledges. In Rivals 1, recovery wasn't intuitive _for smash players_ because there's no ledge. So they add a ledge, but now recovery is too powerful. Ok... so how about no wall jump? Players got mad, so now there is a wall jump except in weirdly specific scenarios where you can't wall jump. Now wall jump has a bunch of hidden rules that make it feel weird and unintuitive, whereas in Rivals 1... you get to the wall and press jump. Straightforward, consistent, intuitive, and (once you get used to it) easy.
(as a side note - with ledges comes _ledgedash_, which is a whole new conversation on how broken ledge mechanics can be...)
Like removing drift DI. Rivals 1 had drift DI, which is much easier to learn and execute than the traditional hitlag-only DI Smash had. Rivals 1 took years to balance drift DI. There's a lot of things like stage size and blastzone distance that were built with drift DI in mind. Rivals 2 takes it out... and now stages feel _tiny_. Knockback was scaled down, but because the blastzones are still close you can die while moving _very_ slowly in the air. I get a lot of those "Oh I died?" moments in Rivals 2 because the knockback feels _so_ low, but the blastzones are so close that it doesn't matter.
There are a lot of changes that are very good, things that address significant weaknesses in Rivals 1's gameplay. Initial dash is a thing now, so spacing (and by extension, dash dancing) actually matters. Shields were desperately needed, and of course grabs naturally follow. The 3D art style (theoretically) makes development much smoother, as it's easier to build out a larger moveset by keyframing a rigged 3D model (as opposed to 2D where you have to draw an entire sprite sheet for every new animation).
It's those good changes that make me wish I could like the game, but it's those bad changes that have become fundamental game mechanics that make me think I never will.
I think there are issues with depth in rivals 1 defensive play that makes melee particularly unique imo (other than no buffer ofc), something rivals players don't seem to want to admit (I played rivals 1 as well) is that the lack of defensive options made it so the core of the neutral and defensive play boiled down to camping with your movement on platforms which came with its own issues
@@lostmycat5671 You're right, and the changes that address that are the changes I like. Things like adding shields, crouch canceling (it got a lot of hate in beta, but it's a good mechanic), lag on wavedash, and limiting options during initial dash.
But the offstage game in Rivals 1 was _more_ interesting than Melee because of the lack of a ledge. Drift DI is _more_ intuitive (and more effective) than regular DI, which leads to enhanced defensive play in combos and more deliberate decision making on offense. Changing these aspects of Rivals was, in my opinion, a _terrible_ decision made only to appeal to Smash players. It makes the game less interesting and less unique.
Glad to see you pop up again! Really wishing you all the best man, thanks for all the laughs over the years ❤
Is this some anti joke joke thing or is he actually the creator?
Soo good to hear from you what the flip how we've missed you
8:20 as a game artist myself, I agree. Couldn't stand playing any other plat fighter 'til now except smash cus they all look terrible and did not appeal to me at all. Mainly animations is so damn important to make it feel like a good experience. The team has done an amazing job with this one! :)
That's crazy, I feel almost exactly the same way about the game during the Kickstarter betas and now the eventual release.
I was looking for a video from you! I'm sorry you had to deal with some many hurdles personally. I'm glad you are posting about the game and your experiences!
Thank you so much for talking about low percent game in Rivals 2; It's been my absolute biggest gripe and I haven't seen anyone talk about it
I've been playing since the start of the betas, I still hate floorhugging, I can understand not everything being safe at low percent but that's way too much, 60-80 isn't supposed to be early percent, I much prefer the "quantity" of unsafeness you've got in ultimate (where early percent is from 0 to 30 on most characters and only restrict about a 3rd of your moveset, whereas in rivals it can last until 50-70, it blocks over half your moveset, and some moves are still unusable at 80-90).
Also keep in mind that getting punished on hit is an even bigger no-go to trad fighters players than it is to players from "safe-early percent" platfighters like rivals 1 or ult (which is made even worse when you consider you've got so many defensive options in this game, from the oponent perspective you can have failed to win neutral even though you had shield, parry, air dodge, shmovement, roll, spotdodge and crouch cancelling, and still win the interaction because you decided you wanted to have fun and not play a game that only consist of grab and Zetter's down air).
Long ass post just to self report getting styled on by a zetter only using 2 moves
Seriously. Have you seen wrastor/maypul/clairen?
@@riplix20 I have mostly wins on Zetterburn mains... I wasn't complaining that he was broken, even though he has some things that are individually broken (like fireball being just too quick so you can't really react parry, and just slow enough so he can catch up with it to follow up with a grab after it hits) the character as a whole is like top 3 but not above that (tho it's one of the most boring characters to play against imo) And they're not completely like this yet, people haven't already fully adapted to floorhugging.
Aye, he's back!
So far, been enjoying Rivals 2, it truly feels like on the most polished Plat Fighters out there and the one alternative to Smash a lot of more casual players have been looking for.
The future is bright given it sold 100,000 copies already!
Hope to see more of you later on.
Based Hyperborean Harbor opinion, thank you Dan for transforming into Adam Carra to tell yourself that.
so glad to have you back, legend
This is a game I'm gonna have a good amount of fun with just goofing around in friendlies, but I really don't see myself paying money to enter events. I'm at a low enough level of play that it really feels like my only consistent path to learning how to beat people who are decent at using cc/fh is to play grabs of aether, and i dont wanna play that.
Thank you Dan Fornace, very cool. Glad to see you uploading again
no way it's the real DANIEL FORNANIEL creator of LOVERS OF AETHER?!?!
oooo i was just checking your channel a few days ago for rivals 2 content 👀
Good to see you again, man. Hope all's been well, and hope to see more!
I remember that one of your complaints in Rivals 1 was that Wrastor could just put up slipstream for free and the opponent couldn't do anything about it. I don't know if they fixed that in Rivals 2 because of you, but either way, thank you for doing your part in nerfing the bird 🙏
I love how R2 isn't really trying to shove R1 out of its own spotlight. Sure there's a lot of release hype atm but if they play their cards right (they being you, Mr. Dan Fornace, and the rest of the Aether crew) I could totally see a universe in which R2 and R1 coexist
Yeeeaaah I really don't like that low percent boils down to fishing for grabs
In rivals 1, you had so many options to start combos
Now it's like... wow! Non-grab low percent combos don't exist! You are required to either poke at a distance or fish for a grab, it really really limits how much you can do until mid to high percents
Not to mention crouch canceling and floor hugging contributing to this issue
Idk getting true punished for winning neutral and hitting my opponent is just... bad
Been looking forward to this.
THE GOAT IS BACK! and looking better than ever
I love that stage you hate at the end I like that it challenges how you are used to recovering, ultimately it just gets you more familiar with the options in your toolkit that translates to recovering at the other stages too
Hey Dan Fornace Creator of the Super Furry Fighters great video! Just wondering if the Milestone System will make a return in Rivals of the toothfairy?
I wished that rivals of aether 2 came out with more characters.
This
Ive been waiting for Adam's rivals 2 video for too long !
Damn, great video. It is a special game.
I haven't ever played any other platform fighter online. I did with Rivals2 in the first hour, for some reason. It's great.
Even in a talking head video you can’t help yourself but edit it a bunch. Haha you have so much dedication to your craft
Thank you Dan Fornace. Will shields also be in rivals of aether 3?
Awesome vid, i do hope ur still going to be a part of helping with future april 1st directs
ur a funny man :)
good vid with interesting points ! I love how different both games feel. I'm sure I'll come back to og roa from time to time
Awesome
Ty Dan Fornace, creator of Rivals of Twother
Man im so glad to see a rivals 2 from you! You were the only rivals content creator i watched and now im watching a bunch of them with rivals 2.
Also yeah i hate harbor stage so much too lmao I always have it banned
return of the king!
The King HAS RETURNED!
I can't believe Hideo Kojima himself could make both Rivals 2 and this video.
Truly awe-inspiring.
The King Returns!
Wake up babe, Ada- I mean Dan Fornace just uploaded.
The whole graphics thing - preach brother! A lot of people will probably say it's not important. I, as a potato pc user, always considered graphics not important because I'd have rhem set to min anyway. But with every platform fighter I've seen on pc besides Slap City, I took a single look at them and my brain instantly said "Yeah, this game looks like shit, it's gonna die in a month".
Sometimes you just stay subbed and hold out, and it pays off
Honestly you popped off with that conclusion, so well said
The Rivals guy is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey adam your expirience with rivals two reminds me of everyone having to adjust to doom eternal from doom 2016, all the community on luanch hated it because it wasnt what the old game was but over time the things i hated in the game stopped bothering me and I learnched to work with the new game mechanics.
Yes absolutely great takes, I felt very similar when I played my first Rivals 2 beta actually. Things felt weird and different, but after a few hours it all clicked into place.
Thanks Dan Fornace for posting. It's been too long!
Also the ice stage is annoying but the air stage that has no walls at all? That stage can exit via the moon door along with Wrastor.
2:25 what remix is that?
Rivals 1 is always gonna have a special place in my heart, but 2 is fantastic and I’m so glad that it’s got its own identity and that it has as much attention on it as it does. Though I think the big reason why so many people are at each other’s throats on twitter is because everyone has an idea of what the game “should be” based on whatever game they originally came from. I’ve got confidence though that the devs are gonna find that perfect middle ground that they’ve been trying to find for all this time, for a first version of the game I think they’ve gotten incredibly close to it and it’s great to see them try so many different things over the course of the betas up to the full release
By "got it's own identity" you mean "has the identity of PM and Melee stapled onto it"
It doesn't really have it's own identity besides still being """Rivals""" in name, and having hitfalling and better characters.
In my review of rivals 2 (on my community tab) as a long time player I didn’t really talk about visuals, but I can’t deny that rivals 2 honestly is a really good looking game even if I am disappointed otherwise.
14:04 I was not expecting Adam Carra to appear at all, i haven't seen him in a long time, i'm so happy Dan brought him back.
Just as beautiful as the day we lost you...
(the star trek video was amazing)
I love love love rivals 2 and loads of my friends that were intimidated by 1 have loved 2 but i do miss the up air to up air to up air to up air 0-60 percent combos every character had. Also shovel knight was my favourite character from any fighting game ever and I want him back
as an elliana main in rivals 1 I only have 1 thing to say about this game: HELP I CAN'T JUST CLICK SIDE SPECIAL TO WIN NUETRAL WHAT DO I DO?!??!?!?
Thank you Dan Fornace for creating the hit sequel Rivals Of Twother
The readability of rivals 2 is huge for me and part of why i got interested.
Hi Dan Fornace! It's me, Adam Carra. Nice video, but you didnt mention aether bucks.
You mean Dan Dollars
Thank you Dan Fornace, creator of Rivals of Twother, for your valuable insight. Please add a second Fleet to the game.
Thank you Dan. Very cool
The goat creator is back in the fuckin mix!!!
Personally, I fucking love Harbor, maybe because everyone else hates it but something that changes the stage dynamic so much is super fun to me
Missed you Adam. Missed your special kind of videos. Missed your unique perspective. Missed your stupid jokes that you continue to make over and over. Think there's a lot more for you to say, so hope you'll continue to do so
Im loving rivals 2, my experience with platform fighters is 1000 hours in smash ultimate and 200 hours in rivals 1. This game just feels like it was meant for me. It just combines these two games that I love to perfection, and is even bringing back the same hype for each character being added that I had from the fighter's passes.
as a competitive melee player it is BEYONNNND me why they put crouch canceling in the game...as well as a bunch of other things lol
I think that is the piece that guarantees no single character can just outright delete you at lower percents without resetting with grabs or using stronger moves to get you out of the ground?
I really don’t see the issue, but yet again I am still around high gold/low plat
Dan, great commentary here. Super appreciated if you could remove Wrastor from the game also, no rush.
We love you Dan
"What's twitter, do you mean X? I love crypto-" fucking sent me
The thing you say about the "Low percent game" I would be much more on board with if low percent ended around 40% the way it does in Melee.
But like Im seeing high level players doing ASDI Down punishes on tilts at 80-90 percent, jabs getting beaten by holding down at 150.
Like the its not "Bread and butter jabs and tilts dont work at low percent" its "bread and butter jabs and tilts dont work at any percent that theyll actually combo effectively at"
Which just leads as you mentioned to the centralization of grabs INSTEAD of the centralization of jabs and tilts. If anything it homogenizes combo game at low percent because grab combo starters are a lot more spacing consistent than tilt combo starters, especially with the more whiffpunish centric neutral of R1.
Thank you Dan, very cool! All i want to add is that the Elephant has to go.
I was so happy to see this in my sub box
DAD'S BACK WITH THE MILK