Don't buy this finger joint router bit
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Attempting to make end to end finger joint with a finger joint router bit.
But the design of these layered bits is inherently flawed. It also doesn't help that I bought the cheapest one.
![CHILE vs. BRASIL [1-2] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ObJt_71AYc/mqdefault.jpg)
I've waited a long time to see someone with more woodworking knowledge and experience show that this router bit is useless. I bought this exact same item some years ago and spent a lot of time trying to get it to work. I had all the same issues with it as Mathias did. I just gave up in the end and used scarf joints instead.
This is like getting a $5 dial caliper and then complaining that it's not accurate....
@@Stevieboy7 In some countries like mine you cannot find anything better it is just the exact same thing with a higher price tag
@@Stevieboy7 $5 dial calliper if only used by itself and not inter changed with other callipers would give reasonable results. But this cutter wobbles too much and the fit is terrible.
@@y0utubeu5ername
China “yellow” is garbage…
@@Stevieboy7 Even a $5 dial caliper can still be used, you just give up some precision. It's still useful for when the form factor of a dial caliper is needed, but the precision is not. But the product shown in the video seems completely useless. Even if you don't care about having a perfect cut, it seems like it just fundamentally won't work to create the joint.
Make a Shaper! The problem of purchasing is solved. Thanks for the great video.
that is a cool idea! but the "bits" (probably called "cutters" in English (not my first language) are more expensive than your normal router with router table. they are standard equipment in woodworking businesses in Europe though.
In my previous job we had this old machine with 250mm tall blade packs that cut a finger joint on a 45 degree angle, very tight fit and with wood glue, made for a really strong 90 degree joint. the fingers were maybe 5mm long but they were dense, it pretty much tripled the surface area of the joint compared to just a 45 degree straight surface. You inserted 2 matching pieces at once and the blade packs were offset so that the joint matched perfectly.
i guess there's a good reason that high quality router bits are expensive. i've learned that lesson buying cheap ones on amazon before, but my results weren't as dramatically bad as the one you got
There really isn't a reason for them to be so expensive. Usually the carbide dimensions are fine, it's the terrible alignment when they braise them on their cheese spindles.
With router bits, I learned long ago that you generally get what you pay for. If you will only use it a few times or just want to test something, buy the cheap ones. If you want them to last and desire high-quality cuts, then invest in good ones. Its simple.
You need to make multiple passes with each one going deeper by moving your fence. Yes it’s a pain and incredibly time consuming but that’s the only way to get smoother cuts and feed at the right speed. Trying to take that big of a bite out at one pass is asking a lot from a router.
It doesn't matter if the bearing is half a millimeter off? LOL
He's not interested in doing a fair comparison. He wants to prove what he made is better. Big ego on this one
@@tmdwu3110Bigo?
@@tmdwu3110He didn't make one, he tried to salvage a tool that fundementally didn't work for atleast 3 seperate reasons
@@tmdwu3110judging the comments you make on the channel, you don’t like him. So helpful….
Definitely a joint that is best done on a shaper but I have had success with the Freud bit and a high horsepower router. Main problem is blowing the breaker as I don't have 20A supply to my garage shop. The advantage with the Freud bit is that it is one piece and the carbide is superior to many others on the market.
Thanks Matthias, you buy the rubbish so we don't have to. Great video.
Thanks. That kind of bit was on my "I'd like to have" list.
Many thanks for sharing that, I know a lot of people, myself included, tend to jump on bits like that so even $20-$30 saved is money better spent for materials :) I rarely do box joints but when I do I am still using a sled with a key. Thanks again !!!
That's a scary looking bit.
Not as scary as having to ask for it back after goes through your neighbors window.
My first thought as well.
Some could say it looks a bit scary! 😅
You like having fingers? :D
It was before it fell apart lol
This like all other segmented finger joint cutters can be fitted with shims to make a good fit. I purposely purchased this type of bit for this reason. I spent an hour or so adjusting mine after it arrived and have been using it ever since. With much success.
this one has shims too. But on account of so many layers of questionable accuracy, the individual cutters wobble a bit, making for a much wider cut than the cutter.
If you aren’t careful, you’ll invent the elusive board stretcher.
3:11 neeoooeeeoooeeeooo xD
dunno why I find that noise so funny, but I do find it funny, it's like it's suffering
If you like that sound, you should watch Kung Pao: Enter the Fist
@@LeesChannel that sounds familiar, is it that martial arts comedy with the lion shout lady? Or whatever it was called.
@@BloodyMobile Yeah, it was the really bad Chinese Kung Fu parody movie from the 90s, there's a character that goes "weeeoooweeeoooweeeooo" throughout the movie.
@@BloodyMobile Actually, I think you may be thinking about Kung Fu Hustle, which was a Stephen Chow movie, that one's great.
@@LeesChannel yeah that's the one. And I remember why I mixed them up: I /wanted/ to watch Kung Pao but when I was at the rental DVD machine my brain shorted out and I got Kung Fu Hustle instead.
Same mismatch like back then xD
I love your channel, the videos are so compact and full of great information!
I saw a lot of these router bits like you demoed for $20 on Amazon. I guess you have to spend more than $20.
Yes, a whole lot more. I believe joints like these are best made with a shaper.
$11 from AliExpress for either the two or three armed versions. But both are junk for the intended purpose.
Love how you do not just throw it away immediately like I would XD
And I would wager he's still not going to throw it away even after dissecting it!
Thanks for this - those bits get promoted to me and I've been tempted. No longer!
I guess I don't understand why you didn't just back the wood off the bit with the guide... like if the fingers are too narrow, you're cutting too deep on the bit, no?
In theory, the deeper the fingers go, the more glue surface you will have, making the joint stronger. There are a lot of other variables but this could be his reasoning
I remember when I was a kid I was watching my friend struggling to get the batteries out of a toy. After struggling for a bit, he went off to the kitchen to grab a butter knife and started to try to pry the batteries loose of their confines. After I could take it no more, I grabbed the toy from him, turned it over, and the batteries fell out.
The bearing is supposed to give you the correct cut depth.
@@NitFlickwick Or the correct *maximum* cut depth. Basically an end stop. You can still increase the bit engagement slowly to reduce the load on the router. But that's besides the point, the thing is clearly off-spec manufacturing scrap sold at a reduced price, basically manufacturers getting rid of the manufacturing waste while getting some of the money back.
I bought one maybe 15 years ago and it worked Superbly. I'll see if I can figure out who made it.
V joints are good. Use them when connecting fascia boards on gable ends 👍 look forward to the testing of that
"Taking it apart..." In fairness, it sort of took itself apart.
When doing router joinery, skimping on bits has always left me disappointed. A winning combination: a powerful router and a high-quality bit - look for brands sold in woodworking stores rather than the "jungle site bargain".
How do you know if you like the hobby? Buying expensive equipment just for it to be left to rust because the hobby does not suit you, most people buy jungle site bargains. If you managed to buy a reasonable quality tool that encourages you in the hobby you are into a winner, but if the quality is poor it can put you of the hobby thinking you are no good and then again wasting ones money.
I was surprised the discs weren't keyed or indexed in any way to keep them from spinning on the shaft, which itself looked like just a bolt from the hardware store. I would never trust something like this that doesn't even have a way to keep the bits oriented properly on the shaft.
Thank you for this test and showing it here on RUclips At 6.08min. you see the Stark finger joint shaper. In the description on the screen you can see 10-11. This means the fingers of the shaper are 11 mm long and the wood has to cut whereby the finger length becomes approximately 10mm. By varying the 10 mm slightly, the fit of the finger can be corrected, so that the fit is always correct, even with increasingly blunt cutters. The type of wood also influences the fit. The fitting accuracy with a good finger width is 0.05 mm. This makes it clear that making a correct finger joint is almost impossible on a router table. Due to the large surface to be worked on and the slightly sloping shape of the finger, it also requires an extremely high amount of power. This means that a correct throughput speed is not possible, causing burn marks to occur quickly. When using only 1 finger, the operation is of course much lighter and usually possible.
man, I've almost bought one of these on many occasions. Glad I've avoided it!
Depending on how wide your joint is I've done quite a few with my dovetail jig using the box joint templates. A half inch box joint laid flat then drill a 1/8th inch hole clean through the joint edgewise, glue and tap a 1/8th inch wooden dowel through the hole. Never in a million years will that joint pull apart, bend or anything else! And even though the joint will show on the flat part of your project it makes a very interesting object to look at!
I have been woodworking over 40 years and those things have never been in my shop. I saw them many years ago and they scared the hell out of me. This is coming from a guy who routinely runs a 5HP shaper. I often get asked about them and always recommend staying away.
I bought a cheap no-name one-piece bit like at 4:28 and had good results. Luckily the two sides are accurately aligned. Not as strong as a proper narrow finger joint made on a shaper with a $2000 bit but fine within its limits.
Thanks Matthias. I don't own one of these router bits but you saved me from the mistake of buying one. I'd be curious to see what you think of lock mitre bits and how the strength of their joints compare to more traditional corner joints.
Good you mentioned scarf joints, but still surprised you didn't explore the basically never seen combination finger scarf joint.
Tried to google this and couldn't find an example of a combination of scarf and finger joints. Intriguing idea
Increasing the distance between the cutters would also have worked or am I missing something ? An extra washer or so between them an voila the fingers arent as pointy and the spacing is constant
I've made scarfs by clamping both pieces down to a table, rather than end-to-end as you suggest at 5:35, and adjusting the overlap with gentle mallet taps to get it just right. That also ensured I got the pieces straight and aligned. A bit of polythene prevented me from gluing the work to the table!
I guess that would work. When I used a scarf joint on a curtain rod a few years back, I had both ends clamped to the bench as well.
Had good results with the Trend finger jointer bit
I bought a similar bit for my router, first use it grabbed the wood and pulled it AND my hand into it. Luckily I only got a deep cut on one finger, the result could have been much worse. Its now gathering dust in a box never to be used again.
You probably want to reevaluate how you’re using a router if this was possible, instead of only choosing safer bits.
Just saw a short for the Freud bit and reminded me of this testing. It looked pretty convincing to me compared to this budget thing. Seemed to make good joints (as it should for the money.)
More scarf joints! It's my favorite joint for attaching headstocks onto stringed instruments!
If you say something is ‘tricky’ I’m never trying it. If you can’t do it, I don’t have a shot. 😂
There's gotta be a jig for scarf-rabbit joints. Or maybe an alignment dowel? 3d printer people sometimes use sliding dovetails. I don't know how difficult that is in wood.
ISTR there's a variation on a scarf joint that puts a "finger" (or something) on each side of it for locating the joint, I imagine it's a lot more painful to cut though ;)
nothing like having to fix a brand new tool. I have to say the most of those cheap yellow router bits I have are pretty well made. I always get the 1/2 in shank no matter
on that blue shaper bit you shown as long as you buy a 1/2 in shaper bit you can buy a 1/2" arbor that drops in a big router. I give 16 bucks for one 7 or 8 years ago. I had bought a shopsmith and it came with a ass load of shaper bits but I am no fan of the overhead shaper and their speed increaser sucks. So I put a shaft in my 2 1/4hp hitachi router and it works great
Firstly, I use a fair number of router bits in my shop and have had zero luck with cheap offshore bits that required a precision grind in their manufacture. When considering the shanks that rust, the bearings that don't always roll, the cutting faces that aren't true, these cheap bits are *always* more expensive than the Western made stuff (i.e., Freud, and a few others).
Second, just because the shank fits in a router/table, doesn't mean the router will have a hope of turning it in material. Without a machine such as a shaper with enough horsepower to turn the cutting head, the cleanest way to get finger joints like this is with a thin-kerf blade and multiple passes (or a blade stack with spacers).
This thing is terrifying. Lawsuit waiting to happen.
Casi me había olvidado de este canal.
Thanks for the warning and explaination
Looks like a job for the metal lathe.
For the scarf joint, could you drill right through the center of where you were going to cut and then put a dowel pin there to lock it in place while you were gluing? You'd still have a ton of glue surface but it wouldn't be able to slip side to side.
this suggestion keeps coming up over and over. More work, plus the dowel weakens the joint
@@matthiaswandel The design of the joint is the problem imho (traingle), square joints divide the force better. Great for gears where contact surface has to "roll" with the rotation, not for joints.
Thanks for doing the research Matthias.
I'm sorry Matthias...even you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear on this one...but you do get points for trying. Perhaps a fidget spinner or fishing weight would be an alternate use for this interesting piece of engineering. Great video thumbs up.
On that cheep bit, the depth of cut would control the width of the remaining fingers. You should be able to tune a shallower depth of cut which will leave the finger width equal to the groove width. Of course trading off joint length and strength.
This is an interesting subject but one inherent flaw in this system is the square end of each finger. Considering that pure end grain to end grain is not very strong you almost have to discount this part of the joint so subtract each of the little bottoms from the overall width and this tells you the maximum percentage of the wood strength that you can develop if everything else about the joint is perfect. With your V joint you had a relatively pointy tenon so theoretically a pretty strong joint.
yes, that part sucks, but if it worked like it should, it would still be better than all square fingers. The freud bit, I think, has fairly pointy ends.
Time for a wooden shaper! Can experiment with Dc motor speed controllers!
You're a machinist now. Make your own!
0:23 I think, the right shape you can achieve by moving the mill less deep into the material, or after milling you can take some material from the edge with planer. Then the ,,tops" and ,,bottoms" will have the same profile.
Having the cutters not lining up but every one shifted helps with overall torque on the machine. Might help if you Diamond hone the cutters slightly
I had this problem with some big router bits. If your router is not powerful enough you can solve this by using multiple passes at increasingly higher depths advancing the fence e bit each pass.
It does make a soothing sound, though
We don't have to clamp scarf joints lengthwise or along the joint if the two parts are fitted between some sort of stop block arrangement instead. The scarf can be clamped across the joint and it can't slide apart.
I have a stack of 8' long plywood rips wide enough to handle the widest base board and crown I'm likely to install. I join them end for end to create whatever length platform I need, dry fit the scarf joint, install the stop blocks, then glue and clamp the joint(s). I use the above method to create flawless joints to make pieces over 40' long (so far). Works great when the quality of the joints is critical, but needs a few extra hands to wrangle the joined pieces.
The method has it's place, and can be applied quite creatively depending on needs!
and then you get a bit of glue squeezeout, and your jig will be permanently glued to the boards. Or you could have some sort of jig that can be loosened after its dried. That sort of jig is known as a clamp.
@@matthiaswandel Wax paper under the joint.
I do this for a living, not a hobby.
Good thing I bought these years ago and haven't gotten around to test them 😂
I have the one from Lee Valley and it worked fine
Your fun and silly... but really entertaining... you are must watch RUclips...
Thanks. I'll stay with dowels or biscuit joiner... 😁
I was going to place order for one to turn my scrap woods to a table top. glad I saw this video. Most these Chinese bits look great on paper until you put them on router and get disappointed instantly! What would you suggest instead? I'm sure most shops which do this in my country, did not pay $2000 for a shaper bit and some extra for the machine to use it
Try a V-joint, like I mentioned at the end of the video.
Finger joints are probably better when compression is the force they deal with best. Unless the joints are well supported, bending, torque or tensioning joints have better options. I see builders who use 2x4 & 2x6 wall studs with end to end finger joints. Costs less for the builder = more profit.
I have a CMT version of this type and it works a treat. I guess you get what you pay for.
Good to know, Thanks. Did you try making multiple passes? I have to do that with big router bits
It looks like the finger joints in the manufactured board are counter to the width of the board. The test joints Matthias is using are along the width of the board. Would that make a significant difference in the strength test of homemade finger joints vs production joints?
I tested both orientations in my prevoius video, makes no difference.
You saved me some money.
Those chinese bits basically cost $5.......in CA right now is not even a McDonalds menu.
I'd rather eat the bit than eat McDonalds poison.
Buy a reputable brand and it's a huge time saver. Also, he's doing it wrong.
Would it cut any better if the individual cutting faces were slightly offset from each other, so that they spiral around the central shaft? That way you wouldn't have all the cutting faces engaged at once.
I was waiting for you to put the end of the boards against a belt sander to shorten the tips of the joints by a half a mm. Then they'd fit tight.
Windows and trim are often finger joints but manufactory machines are best
those bits made me grunt!
For the scarf joint... I haven't tried this myself but was curious if you have: Could you dry fit with light clamping and make a hole for a dowel that could be used to help with alignment during glue-up?
then I need to drill the dowel hole accurately. Plus, the dowel will weaken the joint. This is something for you to try.
I appreciate this. Thank you.
Yikes! Someone must have had a joint in their finger when designing that bit!
Isn't it possible you were plunging the bit too deep into the wood? If you didn't cut the fingers as deep the tips would be broader. That said the inconsistency isn't great
I bought some of those yellow router bits off of a major internet seller, ( I won't mention Amazon at all) and they were unusable. They were a raised panel door set that was supposed to be matched. The ogee bit worked fine, it appeared to be sharp and cut oak with no problems, but the rail and stile bits were junk. I noticed that I had gaps when fitting the pieces together so tried them on several test pieces and they never would align correctly. When I matched them together holding one upside to lock together with the other, the cutters fit together but the shafts weren't in alignment. They were off by about 2 or 3 degrees. After an hour or so of fiddling with them, I threw my usual fit and threw them away. I bought some CMT rail and stile bits which worked perfectly. I won't buy yellow bits off of the internet ever again.
Is that bit/joint with the stubby fingers ( 04:33 ) that bad, really? What is the contact area for all these types of joints? Also I would guess the fit of the joint is critical for PVA glues.
I’ve spent way more then $2000 on cheep tools, never been surprised by the results . I shall keep trying tho
Just for fun, how about including a dowel through the scarf joint for indexing and additional strength?
more work, and it weakens the joint
Isnt the intended use for those bits for edge joining boards rather than end to end joins?
I have a problem with all this really, trees grow at least 80' long, isn't it better to just cut the stuff the right length in the first place?
i didone time on router table with mahogany worked great but just nog made for a tiny router needed a stronger one (with the 33 dollar yellow one piece)
End grain joints like this aren’t meant to be strong, they’re so when making table tops you don’t have but joints because those would shrink and leave gaps.. I’ve seen it before
I ran a lot of trim in my life. Even factory finger joints fall apart. You have to handle it very carefully. I never liked it. But its what you get when you buy cheap trim.
Cool I was going to to buy one of those
Thank you for saving me money
Yeah, that makes things a bit more complicated...
Thanks, Matthias! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I see what you did there. 😊
Thanks for the great video!
In the v joint, if the bottom of the V is rounded to better distribute the stresses, does the joint perform better? What about if the bottom of the V opens to a circle as it would happen if you drill a hole with a large drillbit and cut the v to the center of the hole?
would your bit cut easier if the "phase" of the cutters were staggered instead of hitting the wood at the same time (synchrynous)?
Maybe if you flip the board up and down on each pass, to "misalign" the difference? Also maybe do a cut on the edge after routing, so the teeth reach the bottom of the channels.......also the difference could be due to some difference while moving the router up and down, maybe you should put back more blades, but double check if they all have the same height, and also check the spacers and verify their height.
bad idea -- then the misalignment results in slots that are too wide. Just makes a problem even worse.
@@matthiaswandel but if you were using just 1 blade, that means the misalignment happens due to the movement up and down of the routher......also it could be some of the blades are just simply crooked, so a posibility could be test them all, and remove the faulty ones........maybe sharpen them in order to allign all the blades.....
Gap filling glue seems to necessary with the cheapo cutter.
Why didn't you tell me that 2 minutes ago?!! Just kidding! Thanks for sharing.
Good tools cost good money.
I can recommend router bits from "CMT orange tools" (really sharp but expensive), "Sistemi Klein" (a bit less expensive but also good quality), "Famag" (highest quality and high price) or "ENT" (some pricy, some affordable, but all in all high quality).
You can buy a "Scheibennutfräser" (sorry, don't know the english word) with a single disc-cutter, cut one slot, raise the height (measurement with a spacer between table and cutter. must be 2x the thickness of the cutter + a few mm) and then flip the board and cut again. If you buy a 3mm the spacer should have 6mm (otherwise the "feather" becomes to thin).
I can also highly recommend the book "Handbuch Oberfräse" from author Guido Henn.
It's not a bit, rather a bomb!
I am curious why they don't have these in like 8" or 6" blades for a table saw...
Among you guys that have router tables - how much do you adjust the spindle speed with various bits? I have some bits that I use a lot that are rather large, almost big enough to belong in a shaper. I thought that I should dial the speed down, because the wider disk would be going at a crazy speed. But then again, I'd get less torque. Its not like drill press or lathe pulleys, geearing down from a motor running at constant speed. Should i just run the thing at full blast always?
The bits usually say how fast you should run them. The better routers have a good sped regulator to hold the speed very constant. The cheap one I have on this router table has a speed regulator too, but it lags, so when loaded, it slows down and only then cranks up the power
@@matthiaswandel Thanks, man.
hey Mathias, you have a metal lathe, maybe you could make a new shaft?
I might be able to make one about as good as the one I got with this bit! But I need better than that. Its a cheap lathe.
I think the only real useful and logical aplication of this joint is to use scrap wood to make boards, and in that case you would stack the strips like bricks and each one will reinforce the next, so a V cut would be more than enough.
They used V end joints in the making of asian horn bows, and remember those bows are under huge stress, some are even 200 lbs in pulling weight, of course the V joints are much deeper there. They also make arrows like this
Maybe something like a sharp (10 degrees?), and maybe slightly modded V-groove bit on a slot mortiser would work?
Do tell where to buy a bit like that
What if you didnt go full depth on the bit? Would it fit better>?
but need lots of passes
@@matthiaswandel More passes would introduce variability as well. Guess ill stick to table saw box joints. Thanks for posting!
how about an angled joint + a dowel through the centre. this way you can clamp it without it slipping.
but now you need to drill the dowel hole. Also, that dowel hole weakens the joint.
@@matthiaswandel I wonder if a steel screw instead of a dowel would make it stronger. And it is fast to install.
Regarding torque, when your router spins up and when you're cutting with it, it seems to behave like an electric tool that's on the end of a long extension cord. Perhaps you could beef up conduction to it for more performance? :shrug:
Can you also compare to a endgrant in grain dowel joint and floating tenon.