Anyone here who has not played the War of the Ring boardgame, needs to try it. Simulates alot of this very well, such as Sauron casualties being returned to his pool vs. Free Peoples battle losses being permanent (out of the game).
This is why Gandalf worked so hard to free Erebor from Smaug and re-establish Dale and Erebor as strong bastions against Sauron. If Sauron had attacked them in the state that they were in before he set things in motion with Thorin and his company, then Sauron would've simply occupied the ruins of Dale, possibly allied with Smaug and turned Laketown into burning flotsam within a day, allowing him to move on to Mirkwood with nothing in his path.
I think it would have been worse than that. He already had Dol Guldur, if he had taken the lonely mountain and allied with Smaug, game over. Two strongholds with a giant forest in between them. The wood elves would have been able to do nothing but defend themselves on two sides, the dwarves of the iron hills thwarted, Mount Gundabad to the North/West for reinforcements, and Lothlorien, Rohan, and even Rivendell basically stuck in their respective areas, because once east of the misty mountains above Moria, they are in enemy territory. Each would have been able to give little aid to any allies, and certainly none to Gondor. The siege of Gondor would have succeeded, and then slowly Sauron would have spread his influence westward, destroying each stronghold one by one.
This is correct. Gandalf was worried about a) Sauron and Smaug allying) and b) Sauron possibly reoccupying Angmar. Killing Smaug and re-establishing Erebor and Dale prevented both.
Worse yet the men of lake town were pretty neutral leaning selfish. If you give them a lifetime or three without in interference of Thorin to shake things up chances are decent the lakemen would have thrown in with Sauron.
We should distinguish between the real state of affairs and the way it appeared to Sauron. In reality he was perfectly safe as long as he guarded Mordor from intrusive hobbits. In his own mind he was in imminent danger of annihilation and only a quick military victory offered amy chance of survival.
Oh yeah because he thinks Aragorn has the ring..dosent he? But that might have been a blessing because the ring could corrupt him and then Sauron could just rebuild himself again and try again a few millennia later
@@billmcdermott9647 Aragorn has been stated to be one of the people capable of dominating the ring (gandalf galadriel saruman are a few others). And that is exactly saurons worry, the king has returned and has his ring. At this very moment he is learning to dominate it.
This is definitely something that people overlook. From his knowledge that the Ring was found, he was terrified that it would be used against him. At this point he knew that his ring didn't affect everyone the same. Gollum had it and used it for 500 years and wasn't completely in his service. He thought he was in trouble because all his plans were failing, surely that was (in his mind) because his ring wasn't with him and could be turned against him.
Sauron probably started thinking that things were going wrong after the failure at helms deep if the Rohirrim kingdom was shattered there his army at minas tirith would have had the strength to win the siege and push deep into Gondor with the Rohirrim strong and united his plan for expanding his empire was in serious danger because with the cavalry at his back the siege would fail Sauron was probably arrogant enough to think that his inner ring of defenses could stop the hobbits and probably could have until the united army forced him to mobilize whatever leftovers he had after losing the minas tirith army after that loss he probably realized that there weren't many ways for him to survive in the long run because the armies of good weren't stupid enough to ignore him now so he decided to do a hail mary charge at the end rather than slowly lose via turtling.
@@vladtheconactually Sauron would've thought Helm's deep a Blessing, as it takes out Saruman who he knew was plotting against him, both destroying his army and weakening Rohan. It's actually better for Sauron that Saruman loses because it takes a powerful wizard that is plotting against him off the board.
Pelennor set back his plans seriously, probably for years. Could we call that "in trouble"? Maybe, maybe not. But what I think is certain is that he considered himself in trouble. He acted rash even before Pelennor, which is something he hated doing for ages
This is true. He does appear to have been seriously concerned that someone would manage to wield The Ring against him. If it had not been found he would presumably have continued quietly building up his strength.
@@alanpennie Yeah, it would be like the seige of a fortress in the 17th or 18th century. Those often involved months or even years of digging trenches and fortifications to gradually seal in your enemy who was sealing you out. But if you took your time and made sure there were allies riding to your enemy's rescue, you could eventually tighten the noose and strangle your enemy. For Sauron years or decades were nothing. Look at how the Witch-King slowly strangled Arnor. There was no rush to end Arnor in just a single campaign season, or even a couple. Hundreds of years passed, many with no major battles. Instead you just left the threat of invasion hanging out there and let time work on the minds of your opponents. They often crack and make their own mistakes that prove their undoing or loose their will to continue to fight.
@@alanpennie If someone used the Ring against him they would slowly fall under his power and he could come back again even if they destroyed him temporarily.
Sauron is immortal. He can literally afford to send virtually every Orc and allied men to their deaths, just to cripple his enemies, and then wait for a handful of centuries for people to breed so he can rebuild his armies from scratch. The problem is that the Elves are basically ditching Middle-Earth, meaning that there is virtually NO ONE left to amount any kind of actual power or leadership that can stop him. That was supposed to be Saruman, and Saruman ditched the Valar and Free People.
Although the fact of the matter was the One Ring and Frodo were in Mordor, and if he had recovered it which would’ve happened if he hadn’t been distracted, he could’ve recovered his losses and marched against the rest of Middle Earth.
lol, Sauron watching Saruman make the mistake of emptying Isengard and then suffering a grave defeat, and just going "let's do that too" to the Witch-King
Thing is, there was nothing grave about it for Sauron. Sauron lost one Morgul army. Out of the *vast* reserves of Mordor, Rhun, Khand, Harad, the East... The Morannon garrison at Udun alone was probably of a similar size in the normal circumstances. And in exchange he all but exhausted the strength of Gondor and Rohan. Aragorn could barely master 5 or 6 thousand for the battle of Morannon afterwards. Frankly, it was almost a strategic success for Sauron. The only practical loss he sustained was the Witch-king who was hardly irreplaceable in any case.
@@hedinsee6830 yeah, I watched the video after writing that comment, still, not leaving any rear guard seems to be a consistent tactical/strategic mistake these bad guys make, even after 3000 years of planning
Yeah, Sauron was effectively immortal. Playing the long game and waiting for decades or centuries was not an issue for him. Now he did have some potential trouble with the men under his command perhaps getting bored of a long game that might last longer than their monarch's reign and therefore seeming of little benefit to the rank and file soldier (No booty or new land to justify being in the field with the army for 20 ore more years). However to Sauron 20 years likely seemed like a month. A good example is how he disappears into the east for nearly 400 years during the Watchful Peace. Did he really need to stay away for 400 years or did he just loose some track of time as it means little to him other than that time seems to weaken his enemies as their empires fall prey to cycles of rot from within. All he needs is some slight pressure to keep things from ever getting better. The only thing that rushed him is when he found out his ring was out there and in someone's possession. He was in no rush until his ring popped up.
Here's the biggest question: If the army sent against Minas Tirith wasn't his main force, then what was he holding his main force back for? Obviously at the black gate he had a huge host compared to the men of the west, but Aragorn didn't exactly have a huge force there. Both Gondor and Rohan suffered catastrophic casualties at pelinor. So Mordor could very well have been bluffing, but if it wasn't... What was he holding his force back for? The Grey Havens? They were leaving on their own already. Rivendel? Not exactly a massive army to face. Gondor was the only really big scale opposition, alongside Rohan, so... Why didn't Sauron send his whole force against them? Gandalf is of course wise, but Denethor's perception had been warped by decades of psy-ops and also depression from losing Boromir and almost losing Faramir. Not the most reliable source.
Some awesome questions here, could be that he was expecting a large free people's host behind the ring bearer, could be because he secretly knew that the woodland realm but especially lorien with galadriel present would not fall to mere forces of dol guldur, could be partly relating to saruman's betrayal, mysteries in the east relating to the blue wizards (The nature of middle earth stated that they did prevent the hosts of the east being greater), the re-emergence of the ents as well as eagles also still being around. I mean even now we don't actually know how much Sauron himself knew about what was going considering how often he was hiding in the east or mirkwood - did he even know about Balin's expedition for example? The thing I like is that without it being stated Sauron pretty much had his eyes on two maybe three places in particular - Gondor (Hatred of the dunedain and Isildur's line), Rivendell (The Elves) and Lorien at a stretch (Galadriel) though it kind of caused him a bit of tunnel vision where he sent so much of his strength into Gondor whilst entrusting the attacks of what he might see as lesser targets in terms of erebor/dale and rohan to his allies or puppets. Whilst you can pretty much dismiss the assaults on the elven realms as nothing more than delays. I mean you compare it to the second age where in the war of Elves and Sauron - Sauron literally did all the attacks himself or on his own direction, his hatred for the high elves and dunedain eclipsed pretty much anything else.
no good commander commits his entire force to a battle unless there is no choice. There are always unforeseen complications in a expedition, having reserve forces is always a good idea and mordor is centrally located to any potential threat. Plus the morghul host so vastly outnumbered Gondor/Rohan would would the hosts left back really make a difference? After the witch king died the morale of the morghul horde broke and they all where in disordered retreat the extra orcs would've just made the retreat worse. If the men of Rhun weren't needed to attack the lonely mountain and could fully commit to the assault on Minas Tirith that could've made a difference the Easterlings where sauron's most disciplined forces.
Sauron decided to move earlier than in his original plan. In all likelihood, if he had stuck to the original plan, the forces that attacked Minas Tirith would have been much larger and sacked the city.
Sauron himself probably worried about Aragorn using the Ring against him even more once the news of the Pelennor defeat came in. But from the perspective of the Free Peoples, without the Ring, military victory was almost out of the question.
It can be argued that Sauron did not bring all of his force at once against the West because it would have risked uprisings in his Mannish dominions (Harad, etc.) that he would have had to put down with some effort. As we all know, Sauron from the beginning does not like disorganization, and an uprising is the most disorganizing thing of all if you're a dictator.
I think there is a lot of unknown variables. Our only source about Sauron's power is Denethor, who is getting information directly from Sauron himself and is in despair. I am not sure how much additional information Gandalf had, but it seems he also was mostly reciting Denethor. One thing to consider is that humans (and presumably Orcs as well) generally do not want to die. We do not know exactly how loyal to Sauron and ready to die in this war of attrition were most of his troops. According to the situation at the Black Gates, some were fanatics ready to fight to the death, but most tried to flee or surrender. It seems that some orcs were trying to rebel or desert even before Sauron was defeated. So after a series of such defeats there may be mass rebellions, desertions and so on across Sauron's empire. I doubt those rebels were able to defeat Sauron from within, but at least for some time Sauron's forces may be busy dealing with those rebellions. Another thing to consider that both king Theoden and steward Denethor died during the battle of Pelennor Fields. Gondor's authority was significantly weakened, Eomer and Imrahil might reasonably declare their feudal duties fulfilled and retreat back into their realms. Thus the immediate attack towards the Black Gates was necessary not only to distract Sauron (although that, of course, was important), but also to consolidate the forces of the West under Aragorn's banner. Waiting beyond the Anduin was not an option because without strong unified leadership the forces of the West would become weaker while Sauron would regain his forces.
Sauron to his new chief Orc general, following the defeat at Pelennor Fields: "That's the spirit, Uglak! If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through!"
I've interpreted that at the Battle of Morannon, "ten times and more than ten times" meant over 20 times the Host of the West; the Host of the West was under 6,000 strong at the Battle of Morannon, so my interpretation would mean Sauron's host was around 120,000. I'm not exactly sure how large Sauron's host would have been in Mordor before the Battle, since an army of Easterlings of unspecified size had freshly arrived to the Gate and revealed themselves as the host of Sauron surrounded Aragorn's host. I still think that after the Battle of Pelennor Fields Sauron had more than 100,000 soldiers in Mordor, and some would definitely have been needed to occupy the fortresses and guard the slaves in the mines, forges and fields; I also think many units might have been kept in place and intact in the more far-away corners of Mordor, like eastern Nurn, since the Battle of Morannon took place only ten days after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the Host of the West reached Morannon in a week. Edit: grammar
I wonder. Was Saurons army stronger in the 3rd age than it was in the 2nd? With the Uruk abd Olog hai being perfected, new fortresses such as Dol Guldur, Cirith Ungol, and the towers of teeth, tons more manish allies, new puppets like Saruman and the Balrog, and even the Nazgul. Could Sauron have won the war of the Last Aliance if he had the forces he has in the war of the ring?
Depends what part of the 2nd Age I think - at the time of the War of the Elves and Sauron? No, Sauron was massively stronger then than he would be at any point in the Third Age. After that though it gets more grey - I'd certainly say that Sauron was stronger in the War of the Ring than during the War of the Last Alliance but that was largely because he only had a century to rebuild his forces after escaping Numenor. The real change was of course that the Free Peoples had become much weaker - the Elves had departed Middle Earth in huge numbers, the dwarfs had lost basically all of their great holds except the Lonely Mountain, Arnor was gone, and Gondor was much weaker than in the late 2nd age. In that respect, the Witch-King, Balrog, Easterlings, Haradrim, and dragons all did a huge amount of good work for Sauron over the course of the Third Age.
@@TheGreatUnwashedThing He clearly wasn't that strong either at the time of the War of the Elves, nor when at the battle of the Last Alliance, in the first instance because Minastir sends a fleet and that squashes his troops and he barely escapes with his life. I think his strength is more or less the same at either period... but the Numenoreans beat him at his own game, Sauron for all that he did still wasn't as big of a tyrant as Pharazon was.
Sauron was undoubtedly stronger at the end of the third age. In the second age Sauron was making the rings of power and the one ring. He slowly build his evil empire without anyone knowing until he put the one ring which was in 1200 of the second age. Then war of the elves and Sauron began. He absolutely would have won and conquered a lot of middle earth. But he lost because of the the Mighty superpower called Numéenor and Sauron was crushed. Sauron was pisssed. So he focused on the numénorians. But the Nuémorians force was so great he couldn't't beat them military. so he used deception and Númenor drown. Then the last alliances created to defeat Sauron once and for all. My point is Sauron didn't have a lot of time in the second age compared in the third age bc almost everyone believed he was gone and it's been almost 3000 years ! he hid himself very well all while indirectly weakening his ennemies ( ex : fall of arnor, failed invasions of Gondor) The second question with the forces he had of the third age vs the last alliance : possibly. They would have been evenly matched but I have to point out three things: the elves were far more numerous in numbers , orcs are weaker than men and elves and the dwarves of kazoo dum ( Moria also were part of the alliance) so in my opinion the alliance would still have won.
The one thing I found interesting, per the appendix I think it was, was a reference to Lorain, saying that Galadriel with her ring was so powerful that the Elves there could only have been overcome if Sauron came himself, personally, with the one ring.
Another point: Appendix says the hatreds Sauron stirred up didn't go away and Rohan and Gondor had to fight wars for decades after (until Eomer grew old) so these peoples certainly had enough troops left to continue fighting
Combined with his defeats in the North (where the Easterlings were defeated but possibly not crushed) and Dol Guldur being absolutely crushed in Lorien/Mirkwood (total defeats), he was in A LOT OF TROUBLE. The corsairs were destroyed, men of Rhun and Haradrim- destroyed - the main orc army from Morgul annihilated, the main orc army from the Black Gates annihilated/badly mauled, the Witch King killed, all siege equipment ruined, and in the aftermath their machinery to cross the Anduin probably burnt down. He only had a huge army in Mordor itself left, but this one seems to be poorly trained. Supposedly most of his attack trolls and other beasts were destroyed. All allies lost, and only the Nazgul remaining from his "big weapons". The forces of Good have meanwhile with huge losses eliminated all the threats except Mordor army itself. Aragorn can only muster 7000 but this is still a huge force with all its "heroes" at hand. Minas Morgul doesn't even offer resistance (except its "dread") as the army is passing by. Aragorn leaves Minas Tirith and probably Osgiliath/Cair Andros heavily reinforced. His navy can dominate Anduin and all the coasts basically. Presumably Galadriel and Thranduil and the armies of the north could muster as well, if necessary. It is not looking good for Sauron but he does have 200.000 troops left. It is kind of leaning towards the stalemate, unless Frodo destroys the ring.
I am not 100% sure but don't the battles in Dale, Mirkwood, Lothlorien only finish around the time of the destruction of the One Ring a while later? Especially the siege of Erebor I really do seem to remember ends after the Ring is destroyed.
Great synopsis! I would mention that Sauron not only had orcs and men in his service (and they made up the overwhelming bulk of his forces) but there were still many 'evil' creatures under his command. Giant trolls were shown in the movie, but there were still also wraiths, wolves, werewolves, wargs, giant spiders, giant bats, fell beasts (smaller versions than those used by the Nine), and numerous other creatures hard to describe - that were actually animals twisted by Sauron's magic and resided in Mordor.
Great video! It's about time someone exposed those dang Free Peoples for the bullies they were, always picking on poor Sauron. Can't believe they kept on beating up on him when he was ready to surrender. Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the public, DG! Sincerely, - _Sauron's Mom_
Sauron was not in trouble at all. His forces were not limitless, but far from spent. And what was important to him was the ring. As long as it existed he wasnt going anywhere. His power might wax and wane, his orc units decrease or increase in size, but he wasnt getting dslodged from Mordor ever again and it would be a matter of time before his forces eventually won. Sauron could be patient. While it seems like the heroes were the chosen destined warriors to save Middle Earth, thats from our perspective in the books. To Sauron, it would appear that the Free Peoples were as weak as ever and nothing in particular about the current opponents made this moment any different than previous eras.
I agree but I believe he must have felt like an incompetent man when he realised that all his forces were defeated in mere months and he won only 2 battles : Osgiliath and Dale. and if am not wrong Gandalf mentions that the forces send to pelenor and Minas Tirith represented like the smallest finger of the hand ( his hand being his entire army) so Sauron wouldn't be too concerned yet but still that's quite an army he has lost just in pelenor field alone. But the greatest loss was undoublty the Witch-King. Also let's not forget that Orcs are weaker than men , elves and dwarves and Sauron compensate this with trolls, evil men ,Uruks and oliphants and these unlike orcs are not unlimited. My point is the free people could win ( altough it's very slim) if they used clever tricks and military tactics. Numbers help a lot in war but they're not the determined factor. I know Gandalf said they didn't have the strength to oppose Sauron but if the free peoples united together and play smartly and by making sure not to waste casually their soldiers lives there is a chance however small. But their best option was the end of the ring.
@@TotalWarGamer-hb4kdWe know for a fact that the Free Proples theoretically could have, if not won, then at least been a severe issue even in a straight military contest under the right circumstances. The population numbers that can be estimated and potential strategic capabillity for mass conscription already make that clear, as well as, per some of Tolkien's letters, Sauron being afraid of even a mortal using the Ring to become a leader of men.
@@TotalWarGamer-hb4kd He wasn't incompetent at all. The book is clear that they couldn't have won in any other way. They could have lasted a while, but Sauron is immortal and will always have large enough armies.
@@uriustosh Our actual perspective in the books, that people easily forget about, is that they're fighting a "long defeat" and that they can't win by fighting alone. Sauron was concerned that Aragorn had the ring, which was why he rushed into the attack on Minas Tirith and sent large forces to the black gate. That was a big difference.
@@TheMinskyTerrorist I didn't say he was incompetent. Sauron in my opinion is a very good commander and tactilely he's good. I meant that seeing all the battles he has lost it MAKES HIM LOOK like incompetent. He only won the battle of Dale and Osgilitath and that 's it . That's what I meant.
I mean, at the point of pelennor fields, Sauron was under the impression that Aragorn or at the very least someone traveling with Aragorn possessed the ring. It didn't occur to him that they would want to destroy it until it was quite literally too late. Heck, Frodo's progress in Mordor may have solely rested on the fact the ring was supposedly being brought to Sauron. As long as Sauron can get the ring he could still win, that was his mentality
Honestly, while Sauron would probably be initially panicked and angry at the loss of the Witch King and such a massive force, he'd probably calm down pretty quick and be in a decent mood. He'd assume the Aragorn, the Gandalf, or one of the wise would have the ring, but even so, they'd presumably need time to master it if possible. That would grant him time to regroup. Meanwhile, Gondor survived the first attack by a hair's thread. Rohan lost a lot of manpower to Saruman (IE, the double-traitor), so he saw his enemies beyond Gondor weakened with no actual cost. Getting back to the ring, its strongest power is the ability to help one command others. It can only do so much in a war of attrition, assuming the desire from it doesn't tear the elves, dwarves, and free men against each other. Over time, the free people will be pounded down if Mordor can bring the rest of world to bare...and seeing as men across the world view Sauron as their god, that's exactly what he'll be willing and able to do.
What some discussing here completely forget or do not understand is, that The Lord of the Rings is not about how to win battles with numeric minority, but it is a tale of THE BATTLE of EVIL against GOOD -- and the gist of it is, that EVIL can not be defeated by might, but it is defeated by love and dedication -- the love and dedication that the Hobbits had the sacrifice (and of course others too). The battle in the end was not won by the might of men or elves, but by providence and the sacrifice made by "the small people". That is the reason, that in the end, the king of Gondor bowed down before the hobbits.
The hobbits were crucial, but it didn’t come down to just them. We have a moral obligation to fight evil. If anything we have to defend the innocent. Strength is as important of a weapon against evil as love and sacrifice are. Without the military strategies and might of the Free Peoples they wouldn’t have been able to buy Frodo and Sam time by weakening and distracting Sauron’s forces. Without that Frodo and Sam don’t get anywhere near Mordor, let alone Mt Doom, and therefore the Ring is never destroyed. Without the Free Peoples putting up the fight they did innocents would have been slaughtered throughout Middle Earth, and if any were allowed to live they would have been enslaved. Fighting in force against evil isn’t just righteous, it’s necessary for good to triumph.
@@MikeDindu I did not despise military power, I put it in his place. What is the use of your military might, when your democratic system is falling, because nobody cares? What is the use of it, when criminals can easily take over your country. Germany was (1930) a democracy with democratic leadership. Then they just made the mistake that they let one criminal run free. The Germans were not defeated in the Battle for Britain because of military power, but because many people from UK and Poland were ready to fight the German planes day and night, risking their own lives. Military power has its place, but it is without worth, when there are no people to get into that plane and risk their own lives. If there are no people from Poland (put any country here), that do not defend their own country (which was already lost in that moment), but Freedom itself. The fight against EVIL does not stop in a World War. It continues TODAY in your streets.
@@What_do_I_Think What good is military might when nobody cares? That’s a good question you asked, but how is love and dedication going to stop evil by itself? Live in hope, die in despair. Your heart being in the right place is awesome but that alone won’t stop won’t stop evil. I’ll clarify. I agree with essentially everything you’re saying. The only issue I have is that it seems, correct me if I’m wrong, that you’re prioritizing certain virtues that are necessary to stop evil over others. I see love, sacrifice, dedication, strength, and bravery as equally important to the degree that if any of them are missing then evil will triumph.
@@MikeDindu I prioritize differently, because they are differently important. As I explained, all your "might" is nothing when your enemy controls your own population. Look at the US. The mightiest nation on earth, brought down by a grifter and moron (who is popular, because he can lie better than others and was the host of "The Apprentice" -- a tv show!) The other side around: Look into history. In history, many if not most battles were not decided in favor of the bigger or "mightier" force, but oftentimes by the smaller and more dedicated force. On paper, France had more tanks and more soldier than Germany in WW2, they suffered an humiliating defeat! On paper, Russia is bigger and mightier than Ukraine, many times so. Still they could not capture the land. On paper, Afghanistan is one of the weakest nations in the world. Still it defeated two world powers (I let the political, cultural and social implications open here!). I could go on and on. Greece defeated the Persian empire multiple times, against the odds. Many of Alexanders battles were won against the odds. Still "The Lord of the Rings" is not about winning battles against the odds, but winning the inner battles against EVIL.
Thats one thing i appreciate about how Sauron was used throughout the movies, usually the main villain would get a lot of screen time instead we got his underlings doing his work for him and we barely see or hear from Sauron. We just see the effects he has on the world which works in its own way.
I mean, Sauron did lose Dol Guldur. The issue for the free peoples is that Mordor is fundamentally unassailable, as are the vast steppes of Rhun and the deserts of Khand. No matter his losses, Sauron could just eternally regroup in those strongholds, making Gondor especially doomed. Rohan, Lorien, Woodland Realm, and Erebor are more defendable, with very long supply lines for Sauron, and could realistically hold out for decades. But they too were doomed, as the shadow would slowly creep up on them instead of being won in a decisive few years as Sauron hoped. It would end up being more like the first age, with the dark lord slowly picking off realms one by one.
I think it depends on what kind of timescale we are looking at (and casually ignoring Frodo and Sam inexorably heading towards Mount Doom, slowly but surely) The attritional war was definitely Sauron's in the end, were it to play out in a protracted war, in conventional military terms. If we're looking at this in the short-term, then yes, it would have been a serious loss for Mordor, with the loss of the Witch-King itself being a serious loss. Unlike his Orcs, the Witch-King was _not_ an disposable asset. Now, we might think that being merely the 'greatest slave' of Sauron, is still just being that; and he was. A ringwraith, no matter how lofty, or whichever titles he went by. He was still an overgrown, overmighty slave of Sauron. That said, the Witch-King was meant to be the commander whom conquered Gondor and likely Rohan afterwards. Erkenbrand and the Ents faced incursions across the Anduin by a relatively obscure and limited army of Mordor, though like with what happened in the Elven realms, the Mordor forces faced defeat. Sauron may have assumed that simply _marking_ these territories in the short term sufficed, keeping them busy. Losing him _was_ a considerable loss. The Witch-King had been responsible for destroying Arnor's original iteration, via subversion, atrophy, attrition and defilement of Arnorian lands. This took him 675 years. Angmar _was_ eventually obliterated, though the Witch-King escaped. Not many generals can be casually used for thousands of years. With weapons, he was nearly matchless and a serious opponent for all mortals. Even though Eowyn and to a lesser extent, Meriadoc, were _destined_ to bring him down on the Pelennor Fields, even they had to go straight to the Houses of Healing, severely injured by the ordeal (for instance, Eowyn having a broken arm) Sauron would likely place more value on the Witch-King, than even the _entire_ army of Minas Morgul (~75,000 Morgul Orcs and Uruks, Wargs and Trolls etc) In terms of Orcs, Sauron still had plenty more, and it was only a matter of time before every last Orc lost during the Siege of Gondor (including the enormous Orc losses on the Pelennor Fields) would be It's all clear from the First, Second and Third Ages, entire, in Sauron's behaviour when it comes to sacrifices armies. He'll allow every single pawn under his command to be annihilated just so long as he can escape, survive, rebuild his armies, and come back. That's essentially the story of the Third Age; Sauron's inconvenient endurance beyond the Second Age, allowed him to slowly gnaw away at the Free Peoples and wear them down. Mirkwood became what it was because of him (and Khamul the Easterling commanding Orcs from Dol Guldur, on Amon Lanc, where Thranduil's father Oropher used to sit as King of the Greenwood) The depopulation of the Elves after the War of the Last Alliance, plus the later encroachment of dark forces, under Sauron's command, meant that the Mirkwood Elves were pushed into the North, only, having long since abandoned the South. The Entwives Sauron may have annihilated, even before the end of the Second Age. The Dwarves, scattered, hard-pressed and mostly divided (save for the bond between the Iron Hills and Erebor Dwarves, both descended from different generations of Khazad-dum Dwarves) The time of Smaug long gone, of course by the War of the Ring, yet the Dwarves still recovering from the Battle of the Five Armies, even though it was decades before; only for a massive Easterling army to arrive and capture Dale during the War of the Ring. The Dwarves depleted in general, thanks to Smaug, the Balrog and the War of the Dwarves and Sauron, and the encroachment of the Easterlings across the Eastern lands. Sauron had lost a vast army in Eriador during the War of the Elves and Sauron, but in the long-view of time, that didn't matter to him in the slightest by the late Third Age. If the Orcs could sit and look at what Sauron had done, what he had led them into, how many of them were thrown to the wind, they _might_ start asking questions but under his powerful influence, they never stood a chance of that. He's been defeated many times and just sat back, rebuilt his armies and waited. He can't be defeated by the Free Peoples, nor even by all the Istari, until the One Ring itself is destroyed. Then he's reduced to a weak, bad spirit, lingering in the world and unable to be a problem again. His fate is for him, worse than death. However, objectively, if we're just looking at the tactics and strategic reality in the short-term, yes, Sauron's armies taking multiple defeats in the space of few weeks, is bad. Long-term, no matter how bad that is, Sauron will always come back. Defensively, he can just wait centuries if necessary. He could cordon off Gondor if necessary and Lorien too, and finish off Rohan and anyone else left. The Easterlings would probably have won if not for Sauron's Downfall in Mordor (it was news of his fall that scattered the Easterlings) If Erebor fell, then Rivendell and the Shire would be next. The map would be rolled up across the board. Scimitars in the Shire indeed. Even without that happening, the Scouring of the Shire was attempted by the much weakened Saruman, and although he was defeated, it goes to show how much worse it could have been if Erebor had fallen. Erebor holding was as important, if not more important, than Minas Tirith holding. At least Gondor would still be fighting if Minas Tirith fell, at Dol Amroth and elsewhere throughout. They'd be in a bad shape and totally outnumbered, though at least they could make a fighting retreat or have some of them evacuate by ship to Eriador. Taken to it's logical extreme, the Wise aka White Council already knew how Sauron could just haunt and plague the world without the final destruction of the One Ring, and that no matter how many victories in the field they had, how many times they threw him back, that would be the end of that. Without a final decisive end to the One Ring keeping Sauron in play, then the fact was, all victories were temporary and all defeats were massive setbacks.
The reasons Sauron’s losses in the opening stages of his conquest weren’t crippling is because every one of the Free People’s victories was decidedly Pyrrhic. The Dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale were crippled, even if they survived. Gondor’s military was devastated between the battles with the Corsairs, the loss of Cair Andros and Osgiliath. Rohan wasn’t in a much better state as they’d lost almost a third of their number on the Pelennor, and after their casualties in the war against Saruman, they just couldn’t keep up those rates of losses.Thranduil and the Woodland Realm were some of the only forces that fought against Sauron’s initial offensive, and came out ahead. Compare this to Sauron, he’d lost a significant force from his vanguard, and had probably suffered a reputation hit with his puppets from Rhun and Harad. But all told with the amount of orcs he still had in Mordor none of the Free People’s really had a chance in hell of pushing him out of his heartlands, and he could recoup his losses far easier than they could. And even with the forces he had in reserve, if he’d felt like taking risks, he could probably have overrun Gondor, and crippled Rohan’s ability to counterattack.
Sauron's forces were too vast and we don't know how much more he could bring in from the east. The Free Peoples could inflict massive losses on Sauron and still would have been overwhelmed in the end.
Before I even watch I can definitively answer that question with a resounding "NO!!" He did lose an army and arguably his most powerful servant, but he had far more in reserve. He'd had centuries to build up forces, Orcs and trolls under his banner and men under the banners of Rhun, Khand and Harad. He could probably muster another army the size of the one lost at Pelennor at least once, possibly more. Not to mention the fact that while he was attacking Gondor, he also had armies assaulting Lothlorien, the Elven Realm of Mirkwood, Dale and the Lonely Mountain. Meanwhile both Gondor and Rohan were all but spent. They may be able to muster some reinforcements(especially once the Corsairs of Umbar were neutralized) but nowhere near enough to face even one more army of the size that had besieged Minas Tirith. They couldn't withstand another siege since the Rammas Echor had been breached and the gates of the city were breached already, they didn't have the numbers or strength to assault Mordor(the one time it was done it was by literal supermen; the Gondorians were not yet diminished; and the elves; many of whom were either veterans of the Wars of the Great Jewels and Wrath or trained by such.) Militarily Sauron had the War of the Ring in the bag. The only option for the free peoples was the one they actually did, a desperate Hail Mary to draw out Saurons forces to give Frodo the clearest shot he could get to destroy the Ring
The Free People didn't win by their own accord. They won through a Deus Ex Machine intervention led by Aragorn. Something that they couldn't repeat. The defenders were severely hurt. And from Saurons point of view, all he needed to do was to wait until the ring would eventually return to him. The story is about how the lives of two Hobbits are so insignificant to him that he never considered to be in any danger. And that is why he lost. But no earthly army, no matter how big, could have invaded Mordor.
In the books the attack on Minas Tirith was basically a test, to check out the strength of men. His entire army was there just for a test, he pretty much didnt care about. During the sieges of Osgiliath Faramir also says that it hurts Gondor more to lose 100 men than it hurts Mordor to lose an entire army
Well I never took into account how much Sauron lost during those battles and there is no doubt that he was getting a bit nervous at the fact that the Free People were fighting much harder than what he thought, and what worse is that he still couldn’t find his ring and he knows for a fact that the King of Gondor has return and he is threatening you directly.
Sitting back in an impenetrable capital while throwing wave after wave at the enemy till they finally just get ground to dust. Is Sauron Rome during the Second Punic War?
In terms of attrition Sauron suffered significantly more losses than his enemies, however he was much more able to replace those losses than Gondor and Rohan. Even then he held more than enough military strength to repel any attack on his home turf and only needed to entrench himself and wait to replenish his losses. All things considered the loss of the Witch King probably impacted Sauron more than his armies.
Pelannor and Erebor were to Sauron as Coral Sea was for the Japanese. Yes, the free peoples won, but it cost them. Sauron has other Allie’s and the ability to more quickly replenish their forces, while the free people lost four rulers (Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor) and thousands of Soldiers that are not as easily replenished. Aragorn quickly following up with the attack on the Black Gate was exactly what the free peoples needed to maintain momentum so Sauron could not reconsolidate.
I would think a better comparison is the battle of midway. For the japanese, they lost four carriers and it was a crushing defeat that they never recovered from. However, if America had lost the battle in a complete route, they still had huge production capacity. By the end of the war, Halsey's 7th fleet was the greatest Navy ever assembled, and it never engaged the enemy directly. So to compare, Minas Tirith was important because if the West lost, it would have been a total loss. However, sauron was bloodied, but was not even close to being taken out of the war
Sauron was not threatened. He knew full well that the western Elves were leaving Arda. The last holdouts of men would all fall under his control or be destroyed. Men would come to worship him as a god-king and become his instruments to reshape the world. The only power that could stop him were the Valar and he perceived that they were uninterested in the affairs of the mortal realm.
i think the biggest issue with saying that the free people still had no hope of defeating sauron in traditional conflict is this; it would mean that gandalf was absolutely terrible at his job, to the point of being basically a failure. his purpose in middle earth was to aid the free people in their fight against sauron, and if ultimately their only hope for victory was complete and total luck in finding the ring, then without that lucky chance, gandalf would have failed. imagine the story of lotr but without them having ever found the ring, or perhaps if gandalf looks into bilbo's ring and it turns out to just be some random elven ring. aragorn uniting the realms of men would have been gandalf's main plan for opposing sauron, which he would only be achieving at effectively the last possible moment after the pelennor fields, and if that wasnt enough to combat sauron, then what the hell has gandalf been doing this whole time? my first question would be why did he wait so long to push his "crown aragorn" plan into motion? if he didnt have numenorean blood in him, aragorn would have probably died of old age by the time gandalf got him a crown, and he certainly wouldnt have had an heir, so the new kingdom of men would have immediately collapsed anyway. in reality, if the balance of forces was that lopsided, gandalf would have had aragorn crowned and the realms united well before the lotr storyline ever started. otherwise the argument is that gandalf would have been surprised at how strong sauron was, been like "oh shit", started rushing his plan at the last second, only for it to not be enough and for sauron to win anyway, which would make him look insanely incompetent. like "college student procrastinating their final project until the last minute and failing to finish it" levels of incompetent.
I tend to agree with your conclusion; you can compare post-Pelennor Mordor to real-life empires that remained a threat even after a major setback; examples include the Achaemenid Persians after the Greeks defeated them at Marathon and Salamis, the Umayyad Caliphate after their crushing defeat in the 717-718 Siege of Constantinople (best example, since Gondor and Byzantium have many parallels), and the Ottomans after the 1529 Siege of Vienna; all were costly defeats for those invading empires, yet they continued to threaten the forces that defeated them for centuries after.
Simply put Sauron had been preparing for this war for literally THOUSANDS of years and had made sure to have the reserves and stockpiles of resources on hand to not make this war a repeat of last time. He had the contingency plans in place to recover quickly from any and all setbacks. These defeats while embarrassing and annoying, weren't truly decisive because he still had his base of operations to rebuild and rearms new forces rapidly.
On that Denethor comment, we know that one of the 'enemy' forces he saw actually wasn't, cos it was Aragorn's force on the Black Sailed Ships moving up the Anduin. I know he didn't know that, but it makes you wonder what else he might have misinterpreted. And if that force at Minas Tirith was 1 finger, then at least 2 more were aimed at Erebor and at the Elves respectively, so he lost 2 (with a 3rd stuck besieging Erebor), not 1. And if we continue that analogy as a hand having 5, then he's only got 2 left. And even considering more armies marching from the East and South, that is a huge distance, it's unlikely that they would all arrive together or anytime soon - mobilising does not mean marching. I agree that Sauron still had a massive numerical advantage, but numbers aren't everything. So it was still bad, but wasn't necessarily as hopeless as Denethor thought.
I think the reason Sauron panicked when he saw eregorn in the palentir was because he could unite all men under one banner. Single handedly recruting and amassing a large army if given the time. Alongside the elves and dwarves thru alliances. It might have looked dim but I believe Sauron through that if he gave eregorn more time. Then his checks would get clapped. Strategic victories win wars not numbers. Obviously mentioned in the video. IMO
Sauron was not in trouble, but he was not exercising good generalship or strategy. Mostly, he's the aggressor and he controls the timeline, so if he fails to win a large part of that failure is on him.Minas Morgul should never have been left empty of defenders, and Dol Guldur should not have fallen. A more professional general would not have attacked all his enemies at once wherever they were on the map until he ran out of troops. Logically, it would make more sense to send additional troops to Dale, on the principle that you should throw an additional resources in the places that you're winning. Alternately, he could have reinforced the Lorien attack by holding off attacking Thranduil. In short, most real world campaigns are fought by having armies serially attack objectives A, B , and C, regrouping and reinforcing after each battle. In contrast, sauron just divides his armies based on how many threats he has and throws one army at one threat, hoping to conquer them all.
Personally I think sauron did need to attack thranduil, the relationship between the people of Dale, dwarves and woodland elves were better than a century before. If sauron did not attack the woodland relm it was possible that the forces besieging erebor could have been attacked from the rear. And in such an event the forces in erebor would have sallied out to hem in the besieging army.
Indeed. The campaign in The North, unlike the one in The South, was badly planned and badly conducted. My handwave is that Sauron didn't give it a great deal of thought, believing that conquest of Gondor was all that really mattered.
@@papapalps2415 Thanks for trying to punch down, but you're swinging wide. Anytime you're fighting and you run yourself out of army you're not doing a good job. You can choose to believe otherwise because Sauron is the big bad and must therefore be an awesome general or because Tolkien is somehow immune to criticism, but that is not warfare in the real world.
@@apstrike One could make excuses for Tolkien in that Sauron's malice and ego caused him to be reckless but I think Tolkien just wanted him to be a threat on a global scale. Even though he says he doesn't do methaphors Sauron was very much Hitler and made the same mistakes as the Nazis. To be fair, before Gandalf got involved his strategical position was very sound. Denethor was desperate and losing, Theoden was mad and powerless, his armies scattered and Saruman was about to take over Rohan. Suddenly that grey bastard flees Saruman's tower, levels up, dispells Theoden, reunites his armies and crushes Saruman's forces. And it just keeps going with unlikely events he could not possibly foresee. The oathbreakers, the anti-witchking blade. Then again, a careful commander would not be in a position where these unlikely event threaten their position. Sauron is not careful.
Ultimately, Sauron is a semi-divine immortal being. The loss at Pelennor was a setback, but as long as the One Ring persists, it should always be possible for him to claw his way back to a position of power. Aragorn is, after all, Isildur's heir, and Isildur fell under the influence of the Ring quickly enough to prevent it's destruction, and he didn't even put it on or otherwise use it's power, so even if he had the One Ring, it might prove his undoing, and with him, Gondor and Rohan.
Sauro, arguably did the best he could, building up and building up and building up, turtling. Knowing the elves just got weaker every year and the men (blood of numenor) also got weaker year after year. While he consolidated supplies and troops, also knowing the in any battle he'll face greater casualties AND that unexpected things could occur, he planned to have reserves for that as well. Still he feared the ring could fall into possession of Elves or Maia, even then he thought he could win with enough amass strength, presumably he feared that his evil upon the easterlings could be broken by a strong human king wearing the ring and lose armies to desertion, or a lose orcs to a Maia with the ring instilling more fear than he could without. Sauron was full of fears, so he prepared and amassed forces. He also enjoyed doing so. But what he never thought might happen is for someone to forsake the ring... in a way he was right, but in the end the ring was destroyed.
The phrase I have heard people describe as that was the last of sauron's army that was in the west. Which means that he still has all of the orts in the east, though, that is much more dominated by women and children. Similarly, he has easterlings that would not as easily sally fourth. In other words, it's the last. The soldiers that he has without instituting a draft and without draining his training cadres. So if he loses at the black gate, then he would have to take his training reserves conduct a draft and train up new armies. In other words, he can still take this battle without converting to a war economy.
Could you do a video on the Blue Mountains during the Third Age? I often wonder whether the ruins of Belegost and Nogrod were resettled. I like the idea of Thorin and the other dwarf refugees from the Lonely Mountain using parts of those old cities in the construction of the halls they built whilst in exile
@@mudyao Whilst they were destroyed during the War of Wrath, Tolkien mentions, even during the Third Age, in the Appendices and the Unfinished Tales that dwarves from the Firebeards and Broadbeams existed in the area. "Leaving their old cities" they journeyed to Moria to "swell its numbers." Whilst he never said any of the ruins survived; nor did he say they were completely sunken (one would assume under the Gulf of Lune). I've searched Reddit and it seems most people are divided on the fate of those ancient cities. One quote, which is always brought up is: "There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been - not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm." The part "had been" could mean simply they are accessible ruins; maybe half sunk or buried
The problem is not that Sauron took losses. It is that Aragorn took the initiative and assaulted him before he had time to recoup. Sauron could lose a thousand battles and in each a million orcs. But it would matter not. As a blade is ground down on a whet stone even the strongest edge will eventually dull. Sauron was in trouble as evidenced by his desperation "There now their Lord was gathering in haste great forces to meet the onslaught of the captains of the West" he was having fortifications dug, trenches and ramparts even behind the black gate, in fear that these Captains of the West might actually beat back his ambush force. For he believed that Aragorn would come bearing the ring, wielding it's power against him. Sauron was fully prepared for the black gate to be potentially breached, but we all know the result of this miscalculation. Far fewer sentries posted along the roads. Patrols that could have captured the halflings were busy digging fortifications behind the black gate or lying in ambush in the hills around it.
With any great empire it's almost impossible to have all your armies in one place. You still need troops in stop revolts, raiders, and wandering beasts. There are many examples of great empires suffering terrible defeats (Napolean, the Spanish Armada, Golden Horde in Poland) but you can never send enough of your troops to break your empire from 1-2 battles.
after the battle of pelennor, if i remember correctly, one of the characters said that mordor can more easily lose an army than gondor a regiment. So yeah Sauron had sitll a LOT of troupe in reserve
Has anybody ever thought that Sauron thinking that Aragon had the ring and assumed he would be under its influence, so he almost threw the battle of helms deep and pelinor fields. One depleting a smaller force and two giving them a false sense of confidence. Thus delivering the ring to the black gates where they would very out matched.
The magic in LoTR is a soft magic and more or less undefined, but it is made clear in my opinion that the most potent power of the one ring was to cause people to lose themselves in the ideology and symbology of greed at all costs. So long as the symbol was still there the belief that one could atain it for themselves would live on.
Haven't watched the video yet,. so we'll see if what I'm gonna say gets mentioned, but the free people of Middle Earth would have been doomed due to inevitability. The fortresses of Sauron are ancient and deep, and well beyond the abilities of the Free People to assault properly. They were already in an age of deep decline, and Sauron would be able to continually muster more orcs forever to assault them until they simply ran out of people to man their own walls. Their doom wouldn't be immediate, but it would be inevitable
In short: operational defeat do not mean strategical defeat. Free Peoples of Middlearth could win another and another operational victories, win another and another compains and battles, but Sauron simply could draft armies, produce weapon and organise new ofensives so, so much faster, that he would eventually sucseed. It was war of atrittion, waged against powerful armies but without strong logistics, manpower replanishment system and generally small manpower pool. In that war Sauron could be deafeted in field literally one hundred times and still be able to raise new armies and attack, when one defeat of FP of Middlearth would bring ultimate defeat and fall of their states. Sauron was delighted to wait for it.
"1 million Persians attacked the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae" is basically your reasoning that that he only sent .01% of his troops to crush everyone? What's he need the ring for if he can just dump an infinite amount of orcs everywhere? He can find the ring after everyone is is dead due to the 100,000 to q troop.count advantage he apparently has but doesn't use ever.
Thats the thing, he doesnt. Sauron never really needed the ring, its something that was expressed several times over the book. He wanted the ring to preven what exactly happened at the end.
@@strider8662 I've read the book. And I fail to see how not just killing all your enemies with your vastly vastly vastly larger army, so there is no one left to destroy the ring wasn't done, as it's his only weakness. And if your army can just go win whenever you snap your fingers, I guess I'm missing the point of him waiting for thosands and thosands of years to just do it. Or you know, because he didn't actually have millions of troops just standing around with there thumbs up there butts while the tiniest fraction of his army got destroyed.
@@travissapienza4930 because thats not really how a war works here. Having superior numbers dont always speed up the process, especially in the case of Sauron. Sauron cant win a single fight if it all dependent on it, but he will throw things over and over until the free people have nothing else to offer. Sauron can infinitely refresh its troops, free people cannot. Orcs are mass produced, humans and elves are nurtured.
@@strider8662 Hmm really? Because things sure seemed to speed up the second Saruman built his own army. Now all of a sudden Rohan was down. Which pretty sure Sauron always seems concerned about reinforcing Gondor should his army attack it. But if he could just send another army to be in the way of Rohan while the same sized or bigger army attacked Gondor...Which I'd image he'd do, if he just had another 50000 mass produced orcs like you say he has plenty of laying around. Sounds like that kills all the birds with one stone. The only two human kingdoms left standing in his way, divided and conquered. The elves feeling middle earth in waves already. The dwarfs barely a factor at this point. But sure. He just had all these extra orcs sitting around he didn't bother to use ever for reasons not adequately explained.
@@travissapienza4930 I think you’re forgetting that Sauron knows that SOMEONE has the ring and he still can’t find it. It was driving him crazy because he knew if it was destroyed then he was fucked. That’s why when Aragorn came to the black gates he thought HE had the ring. Because only a fool who thought he was invincible would even make it to the black gate to begin with.
Would some of the men from the South and East abandon Sauron if it seemed like he was losing? Idk how much control he had over all of them, but if he didn't seem as dominating due to taking heavy losses, would his dark influence wane?
I have a vaguely related question. This might be explained in the book but in the film why are Mumakil sent to help in the battle for Minas Tirith? The film shows even the Witch King being caught off guard by Rohan's arrival. The battle of plenor fields seems to have been unintended by both sides, Morder didn't expect Rohan just as Rohan didn't expect the mumakil. Also going into battle without supporting troops was basically suicide. Even the most modern tanks today still become easy prey if they are unsupported. Reminds me of the stupidity in Empire Strikes back with the at walkers. So had Rohan not showed up what was their point? Maybe the archers riding the beasts could better pick off soldiers on the wall? But this would not haven been effective or even needed. None of them could have even get through the main gate let alone move within the castles walls. Also even less vaguely related but it always frustrated me that we never saw the Easterling's in battle. Their uniform/armour was probably my favorite next to the tower guards of gondor and the Ithilien rangers. I also liked that they seemed to have a bit more going for them compared to the much too obviously Arab/middle Eastern inspired Haradrim and the merc pirates also from the east (... The east, geddit?) .
As wonderful a writer as Tolkein was he was sometimes a little too vague. In the books, as said in video, Denethor said the army Sauron lost at Pelennor fields was but one finger of his hand, so 20%? Basically Sauron had a lot more of them in places but we only have vague descriptions like a great host here a vast swarm there. So did he have enough to win? Maybe.
I'm going to make a real world comparison here. It is a different era and some of it is applicable and some of it isn't. It the Overland Campaign of 1864 after Ulysses S. Grant took over command of union forces in the American Civil War. Like Grant, Sauron knew he was fighting a much weaker opponent where all he needed to do was force his opponent into a pitched battle and the numbers would eventually win the day. In the Overland Campaign Grant did exactly this and even after suffering horrendous casualties he just keep advancing because he knew that he had reserves and could replenish his casualties where his opponent could not. This earned Grant the unfortunate moniker of "The butcher." After Pelennor Gondor and Rohan had won but at a enormous cost and had effectively been wiped out as any sort of fighting force. Yes Sauron had lost his best battlefield commander in the Witch King but he also had other ring-wraiths and his enemies had been devastated. Sauron had wisely held back reserves in Mordor and all he needed to do was muster a force and go finish the job. He had effectively already won despite losing since Pelennor could be called a phyrric victory or even a strategic loss. To his surprise his enemies came to him...
The very fact that he was in no danger once so ever in Mordor of any assault like he faced earlier means he would’ve won even if it took 100 years, the elves were leaving, and his forces grow exponentially faster than Gondor or any of the other free peoples, the only danger he faced was the destruction of the ring which he could not conceive until it was upon him
Even though Sauron keeps technically losing battles his soldiers have a lot less value. The Free People need their soldiers more than Sauron needs his. The only thing stoping Saurn from completly sweeping away Middle Earth is logistics. It's very tough to equip, move and feed his entire army at the same time.
Sauron also needs to keep a reserve army in case the Umbar, Harad, Khand, Variags, and Rhun decided to be independent and Zerg rush Mordor to the ground Those kingdoms combined are a bigger threat than Gondor He doesn’t have rings of power to dominate those kingdoms. He needed those rings to keep his Nazgûl’s alive.
The captains of the free peoples know that Sauron is not in trouble and that unless the Ring is destroyed they will ultimately be overrun, even if Sauron doesn’t have it. But Sauron doesn’t know that they have refused it and sent it into Mordor for destruction. If, as he believes, Aragorn or Gandalf has the Ring, then he is in grave danger indeed.
The goblins lost at Erebor and couldn't claim the lonely mountain. Dol Guldur tried to assault Lorien and Mirkwood multiple times but we're driven back and were finally destroyed by Galadriel. Isengard failed to take Helms deep and the ents finished them off. Mordor was defeated at Minas Tirith along with men of Harad and Easterlings. And finally they lost the battle of the black gate and Sauron was destroyed. All in all the third age didn't go so well for Sauron, bro couldn't catch a break.
also seems to me orcs and goblins multiply and grow a fair bit faster then the other races aswell as being way more warlike so their soldier count would vastly increase then the western races.
even if sauron would lose massive amounts of troops. as long as the ring existed he would end up winning in the end, the only way for him to lose was for the ring destruction something that he couldn't fathom happening.
Sauron: "Steiner's attack will bring the situation under control"
The Mouth: "My lord...."
"Nein! Nein! Nein!"
Top comment 😂
Kamul: Steiner cancelled the attack, he claimed to not have enough men.
Anyone here who has not played the War of the Ring boardgame, needs to try it. Simulates alot of this very well, such as Sauron casualties being returned to his pool vs. Free Peoples battle losses being permanent (out of the game).
Oh my gosh another man (or woman) of culture i fucking love that game
Similarly, in the strategy game "Battle for Middle Earth" the Mordor faction could train basic orc troops for free.
agree saruman spam uruk-kai is so satisfy. only thing weird is saruman cant move from orthan and he is friend to sauron til the end.
Might have to try that!
I thought of that game too! Never was able to play it but I watched RUclips videos on it galore some years ago
This is why Gandalf worked so hard to free Erebor from Smaug and re-establish Dale and Erebor as strong bastions against Sauron. If Sauron had attacked them in the state that they were in before he set things in motion with Thorin and his company, then Sauron would've simply occupied the ruins of Dale, possibly allied with Smaug and turned Laketown into burning flotsam within a day, allowing him to move on to Mirkwood with nothing in his path.
Well Gandalf was always playing the long game.
I think it would have been worse than that. He already had Dol Guldur, if he had taken the lonely mountain and allied with Smaug, game over. Two strongholds with a giant forest in between them. The wood elves would have been able to do nothing but defend themselves on two sides, the dwarves of the iron hills thwarted, Mount Gundabad to the North/West for reinforcements, and Lothlorien, Rohan, and even Rivendell basically stuck in their respective areas, because once east of the misty mountains above Moria, they are in enemy territory. Each would have been able to give little aid to any allies, and certainly none to Gondor. The siege of Gondor would have succeeded, and then slowly Sauron would have spread his influence westward, destroying each stronghold one by one.
This is correct. Gandalf was worried about a) Sauron and Smaug allying) and b) Sauron possibly reoccupying Angmar. Killing Smaug and re-establishing Erebor and Dale prevented both.
Worse yet the men of lake town were pretty neutral leaning selfish.
If you give them a lifetime or three without in interference of Thorin to shake things up chances are decent the lakemen would have thrown in with Sauron.
@@maxwellcobb3244 the Master of Lake Town may have been selfish. Tolkien says nothing of how the general populace was.
We should distinguish between the real state of affairs and the way it appeared to Sauron.
In reality he was perfectly safe as long as he guarded Mordor from intrusive hobbits.
In his own mind he was in imminent danger of annihilation and only a quick military victory offered amy chance of survival.
Oh yeah because he thinks Aragorn has the ring..dosent he?
But that might have been a blessing because the ring could corrupt him and then Sauron could just rebuild himself again and try again a few millennia later
@@billmcdermott9647 Aragorn has been stated to be one of the people capable of dominating the ring (gandalf galadriel saruman are a few others). And that is exactly saurons worry, the king has returned and has his ring. At this very moment he is learning to dominate it.
This is definitely something that people overlook. From his knowledge that the Ring was found, he was terrified that it would be used against him. At this point he knew that his ring didn't affect everyone the same. Gollum had it and used it for 500 years and wasn't completely in his service. He thought he was in trouble because all his plans were failing, surely that was (in his mind) because his ring wasn't with him and could be turned against him.
Sauron probably started thinking that things were going wrong after the failure at helms deep if the Rohirrim kingdom was shattered there his army at minas tirith would have had the strength to win the siege and push deep into Gondor with the Rohirrim strong and united his plan for expanding his empire was in serious danger because with the cavalry at his back the siege would fail Sauron was probably arrogant enough to think that his inner ring of defenses could stop the hobbits and probably could have until the united army forced him to mobilize whatever leftovers he had after losing the minas tirith army after that loss he probably realized that there weren't many ways for him to survive in the long run because the armies of good weren't stupid enough to ignore him now so he decided to do a hail mary charge at the end rather than slowly lose via turtling.
@@vladtheconactually Sauron would've thought Helm's deep a Blessing, as it takes out Saruman who he knew was plotting against him, both destroying his army and weakening Rohan. It's actually better for Sauron that Saruman loses because it takes a powerful wizard that is plotting against him off the board.
Pelennor set back his plans seriously, probably for years. Could we call that "in trouble"?
Maybe, maybe not. But what I think is certain is that he considered himself in trouble. He acted rash even before Pelennor, which is something he hated doing for ages
This is true.
He does appear to have been seriously concerned that someone would manage to wield The Ring against him.
If it had not been found he would presumably have continued quietly building up his strength.
@@alanpennie Yeah, it would be like the seige of a fortress in the 17th or 18th century. Those often involved months or even years of digging trenches and fortifications to gradually seal in your enemy who was sealing you out. But if you took your time and made sure there were allies riding to your enemy's rescue, you could eventually tighten the noose and strangle your enemy. For Sauron years or decades were nothing. Look at how the Witch-King slowly strangled Arnor. There was no rush to end Arnor in just a single campaign season, or even a couple. Hundreds of years passed, many with no major battles. Instead you just left the threat of invasion hanging out there and let time work on the minds of your opponents. They often crack and make their own mistakes that prove their undoing or loose their will to continue to fight.
@@alanpennie If someone used the Ring against him they would slowly fall under his power and he could come back again even if they destroyed him temporarily.
Sauron is immortal. He can literally afford to send virtually every Orc and allied men to their deaths, just to cripple his enemies, and then wait for a handful of centuries for people to breed so he can rebuild his armies from scratch. The problem is that the Elves are basically ditching Middle-Earth, meaning that there is virtually NO ONE left to amount any kind of actual power or leadership that can stop him. That was supposed to be Saruman, and Saruman ditched the Valar and Free People.
Although the fact of the matter was the One Ring and Frodo were in Mordor, and if he had recovered it which would’ve happened if he hadn’t been distracted, he could’ve recovered his losses and marched against the rest of Middle Earth.
lol, Sauron watching Saruman make the mistake of emptying Isengard and then suffering a grave defeat, and just going "let's do that too" to the Witch-King
Thing is, there was nothing grave about it for Sauron. Sauron lost one Morgul army. Out of the *vast* reserves of Mordor, Rhun, Khand, Harad, the East... The Morannon garrison at Udun alone was probably of a similar size in the normal circumstances.
And in exchange he all but exhausted the strength of Gondor and Rohan. Aragorn could barely master 5 or 6 thousand for the battle of Morannon afterwards.
Frankly, it was almost a strategic success for Sauron. The only practical loss he sustained was the Witch-king who was hardly irreplaceable in any case.
@@hedinsee6830 yeah, I watched the video after writing that comment, still, not leaving any rear guard seems to be a consistent tactical/strategic mistake these bad guys make, even after 3000 years of planning
It's not like Gondor had any means to take Minas Morgul, even one defended by a skeleton crew.
@@shiroamakusa8075
It was defended by a miasma of insanity, which spared Sauron the need to station any soldiers there.
@@shiroamakusa8075But they actually took it. And burned everything to the ground
He definitely was not.. Delayed, yes, but he could have kept attacking for a century if it meant Free Peoples would be destroyed..
Yeah, Sauron was effectively immortal. Playing the long game and waiting for decades or centuries was not an issue for him. Now he did have some potential trouble with the men under his command perhaps getting bored of a long game that might last longer than their monarch's reign and therefore seeming of little benefit to the rank and file soldier (No booty or new land to justify being in the field with the army for 20 ore more years). However to Sauron 20 years likely seemed like a month. A good example is how he disappears into the east for nearly 400 years during the Watchful Peace. Did he really need to stay away for 400 years or did he just loose some track of time as it means little to him other than that time seems to weaken his enemies as their empires fall prey to cycles of rot from within. All he needs is some slight pressure to keep things from ever getting better. The only thing that rushed him is when he found out his ring was out there and in someone's possession. He was in no rush until his ring popped up.
Not true, he knew the ring had been found.
Everyone asks what Sauron but never how Sauron ):
I think they were mostly concerned for a while there with “Where Sauron”
Or why is Sauron
Sincerely screw Sauron :)
This is literally the plot of Rings of Power
@@131scavy nah, more like who isn't banging or wanting to bang Sauron? That's the most important question.
thanks for the video cheers from Forochel (Canada)
😂 is it really that cold and treacherous over there?
Forochel? Don't you mean Forohell?
Here's the biggest question:
If the army sent against Minas Tirith wasn't his main force, then what was he holding his main force back for?
Obviously at the black gate he had a huge host compared to the men of the west, but Aragorn didn't exactly have a huge force there. Both Gondor and Rohan suffered catastrophic casualties at pelinor.
So Mordor could very well have been bluffing, but if it wasn't... What was he holding his force back for? The Grey Havens? They were leaving on their own already. Rivendel? Not exactly a massive army to face.
Gondor was the only really big scale opposition, alongside Rohan, so... Why didn't Sauron send his whole force against them?
Gandalf is of course wise, but Denethor's perception had been warped by decades of psy-ops and also depression from losing Boromir and almost losing Faramir. Not the most reliable source.
Logistics.
Some awesome questions here, could be that he was expecting a large free people's host behind the ring bearer, could be because he secretly knew that the woodland realm but especially lorien with galadriel present would not fall to mere forces of dol guldur, could be partly relating to saruman's betrayal, mysteries in the east relating to the blue wizards (The nature of middle earth stated that they did prevent the hosts of the east being greater), the re-emergence of the ents as well as eagles also still being around. I mean even now we don't actually know how much Sauron himself knew about what was going considering how often he was hiding in the east or mirkwood - did he even know about Balin's expedition for example? The thing I like is that without it being stated Sauron pretty much had his eyes on two maybe three places in particular - Gondor (Hatred of the dunedain and Isildur's line), Rivendell (The Elves) and Lorien at a stretch (Galadriel) though it kind of caused him a bit of tunnel vision where he sent so much of his strength into Gondor whilst entrusting the attacks of what he might see as lesser targets in terms of erebor/dale and rohan to his allies or puppets. Whilst you can pretty much dismiss the assaults on the elven realms as nothing more than delays. I mean you compare it to the second age where in the war of Elves and Sauron - Sauron literally did all the attacks himself or on his own direction, his hatred for the high elves and dunedain eclipsed pretty much anything else.
no good commander commits his entire force to a battle unless there is no choice. There are always unforeseen complications in a expedition, having reserve forces is always a good idea and mordor is centrally located to any potential threat. Plus the morghul host so vastly outnumbered Gondor/Rohan would would the hosts left back really make a difference? After the witch king died the morale of the morghul horde broke and they all where in disordered retreat the extra orcs would've just made the retreat worse. If the men of Rhun weren't needed to attack the lonely mountain and could fully commit to the assault on Minas Tirith that could've made a difference the Easterlings where sauron's most disciplined forces.
Sauron decided to move earlier than in his original plan. In all likelihood, if he had stuck to the original plan, the forces that attacked Minas Tirith would have been much larger and sacked the city.
He was rushing some because he believed Aragorn had the ring.
Sauron himself probably worried about Aragorn using the Ring against him even more once the news of the Pelennor defeat came in. But from the perspective of the Free Peoples, without the Ring, military victory was almost out of the question.
I dont think Aragorn can use the ring because hes human. Only Gandalf or the Elves could use it.
I have never not clicked on a Darth Gandalf video if it pops up on my feed
It can be argued that Sauron did not bring all of his force at once against the West because it would have risked uprisings in his Mannish dominions (Harad, etc.) that he would have had to put down with some effort. As we all know, Sauron from the beginning does not like disorganization, and an uprising is the most disorganizing thing of all if you're a dictator.
I think there is a lot of unknown variables. Our only source about Sauron's power is Denethor, who is getting information directly from Sauron himself and is in despair. I am not sure how much additional information Gandalf had, but it seems he also was mostly reciting Denethor.
One thing to consider is that humans (and presumably Orcs as well) generally do not want to die. We do not know exactly how loyal to Sauron and ready to die in this war of attrition were most of his troops. According to the situation at the Black Gates, some were fanatics ready to fight to the death, but most tried to flee or surrender. It seems that some orcs were trying to rebel or desert even before Sauron was defeated. So after a series of such defeats there may be mass rebellions, desertions and so on across Sauron's empire. I doubt those rebels were able to defeat Sauron from within, but at least for some time Sauron's forces may be busy dealing with those rebellions.
Another thing to consider that both king Theoden and steward Denethor died during the battle of Pelennor Fields. Gondor's authority was significantly weakened, Eomer and Imrahil might reasonably declare their feudal duties fulfilled and retreat back into their realms. Thus the immediate attack towards the Black Gates was necessary not only to distract Sauron (although that, of course, was important), but also to consolidate the forces of the West under Aragorn's banner. Waiting beyond the Anduin was not an option because without strong unified leadership the forces of the West would become weaker while Sauron would regain his forces.
Sauron to his new chief Orc general, following the defeat at Pelennor Fields: "That's the spirit, Uglak! If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through!"
I've interpreted that at the Battle of Morannon, "ten times and more than ten times" meant over 20 times the Host of the West; the Host of the West was under 6,000 strong at the Battle of Morannon, so my interpretation would mean Sauron's host was around 120,000. I'm not exactly sure how large Sauron's host would have been in Mordor before the Battle, since an army of Easterlings of unspecified size had freshly arrived to the Gate and revealed themselves as the host of Sauron surrounded Aragorn's host.
I still think that after the Battle of Pelennor Fields Sauron had more than 100,000 soldiers in Mordor, and some would definitely have been needed to occupy the fortresses and guard the slaves in the mines, forges and fields; I also think many units might have been kept in place and intact in the more far-away corners of Mordor, like eastern Nurn, since the Battle of Morannon took place only ten days after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and the Host of the West reached Morannon in a week.
Edit: grammar
I wonder. Was Saurons army stronger in the 3rd age than it was in the 2nd? With the Uruk abd Olog hai being perfected, new fortresses such as Dol Guldur, Cirith Ungol, and the towers of teeth, tons more manish allies, new puppets like Saruman and the Balrog, and even the Nazgul. Could Sauron have won the war of the Last Aliance if he had the forces he has in the war of the ring?
Depends what part of the 2nd Age I think - at the time of the War of the Elves and Sauron? No, Sauron was massively stronger then than he would be at any point in the Third Age. After that though it gets more grey - I'd certainly say that Sauron was stronger in the War of the Ring than during the War of the Last Alliance but that was largely because he only had a century to rebuild his forces after escaping Numenor.
The real change was of course that the Free Peoples had become much weaker - the Elves had departed Middle Earth in huge numbers, the dwarfs had lost basically all of their great holds except the Lonely Mountain, Arnor was gone, and Gondor was much weaker than in the late 2nd age. In that respect, the Witch-King, Balrog, Easterlings, Haradrim, and dragons all did a huge amount of good work for Sauron over the course of the Third Age.
The balrog was not his puppet just a happy accident that benefited him in the long run
@@TheGreatUnwashedThing He clearly wasn't that strong either at the time of the War of the Elves, nor when at the battle of the Last Alliance, in the first instance because Minastir sends a fleet and that squashes his troops and he barely escapes with his life. I think his strength is more or less the same at either period... but the Numenoreans beat him at his own game, Sauron for all that he did still wasn't as big of a tyrant as Pharazon was.
@@thewingedringerYou need to remember that Pharazon was at his worst under the direct control of Sauron
Sauron was undoubtedly stronger at the end of the third age. In the second age Sauron was making the rings of power and the one ring. He slowly build his evil empire without anyone knowing until he put the one ring which was in 1200 of the second age. Then war of the elves and Sauron began. He absolutely would have won and conquered a lot of middle earth. But he lost because of the the Mighty superpower called Numéenor and Sauron was crushed. Sauron was pisssed. So he focused on the numénorians. But the Nuémorians force was so great he couldn't't beat them military. so he used deception and Númenor drown. Then the last alliances created to defeat Sauron once and for all. My point is Sauron didn't have a lot of time in the second age compared in the third age bc almost everyone believed he was gone and it's been almost 3000 years ! he hid himself very well all while indirectly weakening his ennemies ( ex : fall of arnor, failed invasions of Gondor) The second question with the forces he had of the third age vs the last alliance : possibly. They would have been evenly matched but I have to point out three things: the elves were far more numerous in numbers , orcs are weaker than men and elves and the dwarves of kazoo dum ( Moria also were part of the alliance) so in my opinion the alliance would still have won.
The one thing I found interesting, per the appendix I think it was, was a reference to Lorain, saying that Galadriel with her ring was so powerful that the Elves there could only have been overcome if Sauron came himself, personally, with the one ring.
Sauron seeing his besieging army destroyed by the Aragorn's Army of the Dead
"The Ranger has played his little trick. He can only play it once."
🤘😫🤘 This is the best of the tolkiens legendarium videos I’ve seen in weeks.
No intro. Right to the meat of the question. Subscribed.
Excellent video as always DG!
Another point: Appendix says the hatreds Sauron stirred up didn't go away and Rohan and Gondor had to fight wars for decades after (until Eomer grew old) so these peoples certainly had enough troops left to continue fighting
Combined with his defeats in the North (where the Easterlings were defeated but possibly not crushed) and Dol Guldur being absolutely crushed in Lorien/Mirkwood (total defeats), he was in A LOT OF TROUBLE.
The corsairs were destroyed, men of Rhun and Haradrim- destroyed - the main orc army from Morgul annihilated, the main orc army from the Black Gates annihilated/badly mauled, the Witch King killed, all siege equipment ruined, and in the aftermath their machinery to cross the Anduin probably burnt down. He only had a huge army in Mordor itself left, but this one seems to be poorly trained. Supposedly most of his attack trolls and other beasts were destroyed.
All allies lost, and only the Nazgul remaining from his "big weapons".
The forces of Good have meanwhile with huge losses eliminated all the threats except Mordor army itself. Aragorn can only muster 7000 but this is still a huge force with all its "heroes" at hand. Minas Morgul doesn't even offer resistance (except its "dread") as the army is passing by. Aragorn leaves Minas Tirith and probably Osgiliath/Cair Andros heavily reinforced. His navy can dominate Anduin and all the coasts basically.
Presumably Galadriel and Thranduil and the armies of the north could muster as well, if necessary.
It is not looking good for Sauron but he does have 200.000 troops left. It is kind of leaning towards the stalemate, unless Frodo destroys the ring.
I am not 100% sure but don't the battles in Dale, Mirkwood, Lothlorien only finish around the time of the destruction of the One Ring a while later? Especially the siege of Erebor I really do seem to remember ends after the Ring is destroyed.
11:51 By that same measurement you could also be a Russian general or later a German general on the Eastern front of WWII
Great synopsis! I would mention that Sauron not only had orcs and men in his service (and they made up the overwhelming bulk of his forces) but there were still many 'evil' creatures under his command. Giant trolls were shown in the movie, but there were still also wraiths, wolves, werewolves, wargs, giant spiders, giant bats, fell beasts (smaller versions than those used by the Nine), and numerous other creatures hard to describe - that were actually animals twisted by Sauron's magic and resided in Mordor.
Very interesting video👍
Great video! It's about time someone exposed those dang Free Peoples for the bullies they were, always picking on poor Sauron. Can't believe they kept on beating up on him when he was ready to surrender. Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the public, DG! Sincerely, - _Sauron's Mom_
Sauron was not in trouble at all. His forces were not limitless, but far from spent. And what was important to him was the ring. As long as it existed he wasnt going anywhere. His power might wax and wane, his orc units decrease or increase in size, but he wasnt getting dslodged from Mordor ever again and it would be a matter of time before his forces eventually won. Sauron could be patient. While it seems like the heroes were the chosen destined warriors to save Middle Earth, thats from our perspective in the books. To Sauron, it would appear that the Free Peoples were as weak as ever and nothing in particular about the current opponents made this moment any different than previous eras.
I agree but I believe he must have felt like an incompetent man when he realised that all his forces were defeated in mere months and he won only 2 battles : Osgiliath and Dale. and if am not wrong Gandalf mentions that the forces send to pelenor and Minas Tirith represented like the smallest finger of the hand ( his hand being his entire army) so Sauron wouldn't be too concerned yet but still that's quite an army he has lost just in pelenor field alone. But the greatest loss was undoublty the Witch-King. Also let's not forget that Orcs are weaker than men , elves and dwarves and Sauron compensate this with trolls, evil men ,Uruks and oliphants and these unlike orcs are not unlimited. My point is the free people could win ( altough it's very slim) if they used clever tricks and military tactics. Numbers help a lot in war but they're not the determined factor. I know Gandalf said they didn't have the strength to oppose Sauron but if the free peoples united together and play smartly and by making sure not to waste casually their soldiers lives there is a chance however small. But their best option was the end of the ring.
@@TotalWarGamer-hb4kdWe know for a fact that the Free Proples theoretically could have, if not won, then at least been a severe issue even in a straight military contest under the right circumstances. The population numbers that can be estimated and potential strategic capabillity for mass conscription already make that clear, as well as, per some of Tolkien's letters, Sauron being afraid of even a mortal using the Ring to become a leader of men.
@@TotalWarGamer-hb4kd He wasn't incompetent at all. The book is clear that they couldn't have won in any other way. They could have lasted a while, but Sauron is immortal and will always have large enough armies.
@@uriustosh Our actual perspective in the books, that people easily forget about, is that they're fighting a "long defeat" and that they can't win by fighting alone.
Sauron was concerned that Aragorn had the ring, which was why he rushed into the attack on Minas Tirith and sent large forces to the black gate. That was a big difference.
@@TheMinskyTerrorist I didn't say he was incompetent. Sauron in my opinion is a very good commander and tactilely he's good. I meant that seeing all the battles he has lost it MAKES HIM LOOK like incompetent. He only won the battle of Dale and Osgilitath and that 's it . That's what I meant.
Great video. Thanks for the info!
indeed!
A question I frequently have, finally answered! Cheers DG.
Another great video
I mean, at the point of pelennor fields, Sauron was under the impression that Aragorn or at the very least someone traveling with Aragorn possessed the ring. It didn't occur to him that they would want to destroy it until it was quite literally too late. Heck, Frodo's progress in Mordor may have solely rested on the fact the ring was supposedly being brought to Sauron. As long as Sauron can get the ring he could still win, that was his mentality
Cool video!
I would like to see from you a video on Aragorn adventures before Lotr events.
Honestly, while Sauron would probably be initially panicked and angry at the loss of the Witch King and such a massive force, he'd probably calm down pretty quick and be in a decent mood.
He'd assume the Aragorn, the Gandalf, or one of the wise would have the ring, but even so, they'd presumably need time to master it if possible. That would grant him time to regroup.
Meanwhile, Gondor survived the first attack by a hair's thread.
Rohan lost a lot of manpower to Saruman (IE, the double-traitor), so he saw his enemies beyond Gondor weakened with no actual cost.
Getting back to the ring, its strongest power is the ability to help one command others. It can only do so much in a war of attrition, assuming the desire from it doesn't tear the elves, dwarves, and free men against each other. Over time, the free people will be pounded down if Mordor can bring the rest of world to bare...and seeing as men across the world view Sauron as their god, that's exactly what he'll be willing and able to do.
Thanks for this it was interesting.
What some discussing here completely forget or do not understand is, that The Lord of the Rings is not about how to win battles with numeric minority, but it is a tale of THE BATTLE of EVIL against GOOD -- and the gist of it is, that EVIL can not be defeated by might, but it is defeated by love and dedication -- the love and dedication that the Hobbits had the sacrifice (and of course others too). The battle in the end was not won by the might of men or elves, but by providence and the sacrifice made by "the small people".
That is the reason, that in the end, the king of Gondor bowed down before the hobbits.
It's the victory of a high trust society over a totalitarian empire.
The hobbits were crucial, but it didn’t come down to just them. We have a moral obligation to fight evil. If anything we have to defend the innocent. Strength is as important of a weapon against evil as love and sacrifice are. Without the military strategies and might of the Free Peoples they wouldn’t have been able to buy Frodo and Sam time by weakening and distracting Sauron’s forces. Without that Frodo and Sam don’t get anywhere near Mordor, let alone Mt Doom, and therefore the Ring is never destroyed. Without the Free Peoples putting up the fight they did innocents would have been slaughtered throughout Middle Earth, and if any were allowed to live they would have been enslaved. Fighting in force against evil isn’t just righteous, it’s necessary for good to triumph.
@@MikeDindu I did not despise military power, I put it in his place.
What is the use of your military might, when your democratic system is falling, because nobody cares? What is the use of it, when criminals can easily take over your country. Germany was (1930) a democracy with democratic leadership. Then they just made the mistake that they let one criminal run free.
The Germans were not defeated in the Battle for Britain because of military power, but because many people from UK and Poland were ready to fight the German planes day and night, risking their own lives.
Military power has its place, but it is without worth, when there are no people to get into that plane and risk their own lives. If there are no people from Poland (put any country here), that do not defend their own country (which was already lost in that moment), but Freedom itself.
The fight against EVIL does not stop in a World War. It continues TODAY in your streets.
@@What_do_I_Think What good is military might when nobody cares? That’s a good question you asked, but how is love and dedication going to stop evil by itself? Live in hope, die in despair. Your heart being in the right place is awesome but that alone won’t stop won’t stop evil.
I’ll clarify. I agree with essentially everything you’re saying. The only issue I have is that it seems, correct me if I’m wrong, that you’re prioritizing certain virtues that are necessary to stop evil over others. I see love, sacrifice, dedication, strength, and bravery as equally important to the degree that if any of them are missing then evil will triumph.
@@MikeDindu I prioritize differently, because they are differently important.
As I explained, all your "might" is nothing when your enemy controls your own population. Look at the US. The mightiest nation on earth, brought down by a grifter and moron (who is popular, because he can lie better than others and was the host of "The Apprentice" -- a tv show!)
The other side around: Look into history. In history, many if not most battles were not decided in favor of the bigger or "mightier" force, but oftentimes by the smaller and more dedicated force. On paper, France had more tanks and more soldier than Germany in WW2, they suffered an humiliating defeat! On paper, Russia is bigger and mightier than Ukraine, many times so. Still they could not capture the land. On paper, Afghanistan is one of the weakest nations in the world. Still it defeated two world powers (I let the political, cultural and social implications open here!). I could go on and on. Greece defeated the Persian empire multiple times, against the odds. Many of Alexanders battles were won against the odds.
Still "The Lord of the Rings" is not about winning battles against the odds, but winning the inner battles against EVIL.
Will you make a Video, where you talks about youre Thoughts on ride of the Rohirrim?
Thats one thing i appreciate about how Sauron was used throughout the movies, usually the main villain would get a lot of screen time instead we got his underlings doing his work for him and we barely see or hear from Sauron. We just see the effects he has on the world which works in its own way.
I mean, Sauron did lose Dol Guldur. The issue for the free peoples is that Mordor is fundamentally unassailable, as are the vast steppes of Rhun and the deserts of Khand. No matter his losses, Sauron could just eternally regroup in those strongholds, making Gondor especially doomed. Rohan, Lorien, Woodland Realm, and Erebor are more defendable, with very long supply lines for Sauron, and could realistically hold out for decades. But they too were doomed, as the shadow would slowly creep up on them instead of being won in a decisive few years as Sauron hoped. It would end up being more like the first age, with the dark lord slowly picking off realms one by one.
I think it depends on what kind of timescale we are looking at (and casually ignoring Frodo and Sam inexorably heading towards Mount Doom, slowly but surely) The attritional war was definitely Sauron's in the end, were it to play out in a protracted war, in conventional military terms. If we're looking at this in the short-term, then yes, it would have been a serious loss for Mordor, with the loss of the Witch-King itself being a serious loss. Unlike his Orcs, the Witch-King was _not_ an disposable asset. Now, we might think that being merely the 'greatest slave' of Sauron, is still just being that; and he was. A ringwraith, no matter how lofty, or whichever titles he went by. He was still an overgrown, overmighty slave of Sauron.
That said, the Witch-King was meant to be the commander whom conquered Gondor and likely Rohan afterwards. Erkenbrand and the Ents faced incursions across the Anduin by a relatively obscure and limited army of Mordor, though like with what happened in the Elven realms, the Mordor forces faced defeat. Sauron may have assumed that simply _marking_ these territories in the short term sufficed, keeping them busy. Losing him _was_ a considerable loss. The Witch-King had been responsible for destroying Arnor's original iteration, via subversion, atrophy, attrition and defilement of Arnorian lands. This took him 675 years. Angmar _was_ eventually obliterated, though the Witch-King escaped.
Not many generals can be casually used for thousands of years. With weapons, he was nearly matchless and a serious opponent for all mortals. Even though Eowyn and to a lesser extent, Meriadoc, were _destined_ to bring him down on the Pelennor Fields, even they had to go straight to the Houses of Healing, severely injured by the ordeal (for instance, Eowyn having a broken arm) Sauron would likely place more value on the Witch-King, than even the _entire_ army of Minas Morgul (~75,000 Morgul Orcs and Uruks, Wargs and Trolls etc) In terms of Orcs, Sauron still had plenty more, and it was only a matter of time before every last Orc lost during the Siege of Gondor (including the enormous Orc losses on the Pelennor Fields) would be
It's all clear from the First, Second and Third Ages, entire, in Sauron's behaviour when it comes to sacrifices armies. He'll allow every single pawn under his command to be annihilated just so long as he can escape, survive, rebuild his armies, and come back. That's essentially the story of the Third Age; Sauron's inconvenient endurance beyond the Second Age, allowed him to slowly gnaw away at the Free Peoples and wear them down. Mirkwood became what it was because of him (and Khamul the Easterling commanding Orcs from Dol Guldur, on Amon Lanc, where Thranduil's father Oropher used to sit as King of the Greenwood) The depopulation of the Elves after the War of the Last Alliance, plus the later encroachment of dark forces, under Sauron's command, meant that the Mirkwood Elves were pushed into the North, only, having long since abandoned the South.
The Entwives Sauron may have annihilated, even before the end of the Second Age. The Dwarves, scattered, hard-pressed and mostly divided (save for the bond between the Iron Hills and Erebor Dwarves, both descended from different generations of Khazad-dum Dwarves) The time of Smaug long gone, of course by the War of the Ring, yet the Dwarves still recovering from the Battle of the Five Armies, even though it was decades before; only for a massive Easterling army to arrive and capture Dale during the War of the Ring. The Dwarves depleted in general, thanks to Smaug, the Balrog and the War of the Dwarves and Sauron, and the encroachment of the Easterlings across the Eastern lands.
Sauron had lost a vast army in Eriador during the War of the Elves and Sauron, but in the long-view of time, that didn't matter to him in the slightest by the late Third Age. If the Orcs could sit and look at what Sauron had done, what he had led them into, how many of them were thrown to the wind, they _might_ start asking questions but under his powerful influence, they never stood a chance of that. He's been defeated many times and just sat back, rebuilt his armies and waited. He can't be defeated by the Free Peoples, nor even by all the Istari, until the One Ring itself is destroyed. Then he's reduced to a weak, bad spirit, lingering in the world and unable to be a problem again. His fate is for him, worse than death.
However, objectively, if we're just looking at the tactics and strategic reality in the short-term, yes, Sauron's armies taking multiple defeats in the space of few weeks, is bad. Long-term, no matter how bad that is, Sauron will always come back. Defensively, he can just wait centuries if necessary. He could cordon off Gondor if necessary and Lorien too, and finish off Rohan and anyone else left. The Easterlings would probably have won if not for Sauron's Downfall in Mordor (it was news of his fall that scattered the Easterlings) If Erebor fell, then Rivendell and the Shire would be next. The map would be rolled up across the board. Scimitars in the Shire indeed. Even without that happening, the Scouring of the Shire was attempted by the much weakened Saruman, and although he was defeated, it goes to show how much worse it could have been if Erebor had fallen.
Erebor holding was as important, if not more important, than Minas Tirith holding. At least Gondor would still be fighting if Minas Tirith fell, at Dol Amroth and elsewhere throughout. They'd be in a bad shape and totally outnumbered, though at least they could make a fighting retreat or have some of them evacuate by ship to Eriador. Taken to it's logical extreme, the Wise aka White Council already knew how Sauron could just haunt and plague the world without the final destruction of the One Ring, and that no matter how many victories in the field they had, how many times they threw him back, that would be the end of that. Without a final decisive end to the One Ring keeping Sauron in play, then the fact was, all victories were temporary and all defeats were massive setbacks.
The reasons Sauron’s losses in the opening stages of his conquest weren’t crippling is because every one of the Free People’s victories was decidedly Pyrrhic. The Dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale were crippled, even if they survived. Gondor’s military was devastated between the battles with the Corsairs, the loss of Cair Andros and Osgiliath. Rohan wasn’t in a much better state as they’d lost almost a third of their number on the Pelennor, and after their casualties in the war against Saruman, they just couldn’t keep up those rates of losses.Thranduil and the Woodland Realm were some of the only forces that fought against Sauron’s initial offensive, and came out ahead. Compare this to Sauron, he’d lost a significant force from his vanguard, and had probably suffered a reputation hit with his puppets from Rhun and Harad. But all told with the amount of orcs he still had in Mordor none of the Free People’s really had a chance in hell of pushing him out of his heartlands, and he could recoup his losses far easier than they could. And even with the forces he had in reserve, if he’d felt like taking risks, he could probably have overrun Gondor, and crippled Rohan’s ability to counterattack.
Sauron - the lord of spam, could always just spam a little more...
Sauron's forces were too vast and we don't know how much more he could bring in from the east. The Free Peoples could inflict massive losses on Sauron and still would have been overwhelmed in the end.
Before I even watch I can definitively answer that question with a resounding "NO!!" He did lose an army and arguably his most powerful servant, but he had far more in reserve. He'd had centuries to build up forces, Orcs and trolls under his banner and men under the banners of Rhun, Khand and Harad. He could probably muster another army the size of the one lost at Pelennor at least once, possibly more. Not to mention the fact that while he was attacking Gondor, he also had armies assaulting Lothlorien, the Elven Realm of Mirkwood, Dale and the Lonely Mountain.
Meanwhile both Gondor and Rohan were all but spent. They may be able to muster some reinforcements(especially once the Corsairs of Umbar were neutralized) but nowhere near enough to face even one more army of the size that had besieged Minas Tirith. They couldn't withstand another siege since the Rammas Echor had been breached and the gates of the city were breached already, they didn't have the numbers or strength to assault Mordor(the one time it was done it was by literal supermen; the Gondorians were not yet diminished; and the elves; many of whom were either veterans of the Wars of the Great Jewels and Wrath or trained by such.) Militarily Sauron had the War of the Ring in the bag. The only option for the free peoples was the one they actually did, a desperate Hail Mary to draw out Saurons forces to give Frodo the clearest shot he could get to destroy the Ring
The Free People didn't win by their own accord. They won through a Deus Ex Machine intervention led by Aragorn. Something that they couldn't repeat. The defenders were severely hurt.
And from Saurons point of view, all he needed to do was to wait until the ring would eventually return to him.
The story is about how the lives of two Hobbits are so insignificant to him that he never considered to be in any danger. And that is why he lost. But no earthly army, no matter how big, could have invaded Mordor.
In the books the attack on Minas Tirith was basically a test, to check out the strength of men. His entire army was there just for a test, he pretty much didnt care about. During the sieges of Osgiliath Faramir also says that it hurts Gondor more to lose 100 men than it hurts Mordor to lose an entire army
Well I never took into account how much Sauron lost during those battles and there is no doubt that he was getting a bit nervous at the fact that the Free People were fighting much harder than what he thought, and what worse is that he still couldn’t find his ring and he knows for a fact that the King of Gondor has return and he is threatening you directly.
Sitting back in an impenetrable capital while throwing wave after wave at the enemy till they finally just get ground to dust. Is Sauron Rome during the Second Punic War?
In terms of attrition Sauron suffered significantly more losses than his enemies, however he was much more able to replace those losses than Gondor and Rohan. Even then he held more than enough military strength to repel any attack on his home turf and only needed to entrench himself and wait to replenish his losses. All things considered the loss of the Witch King probably impacted Sauron more than his armies.
Pelannor and Erebor were to Sauron as Coral Sea was for the Japanese. Yes, the free peoples won, but it cost them. Sauron has other Allie’s and the ability to more quickly replenish their forces, while the free people lost four rulers (Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Erebor) and thousands of Soldiers that are not as easily replenished. Aragorn quickly following up with the attack on the Black Gate was exactly what the free peoples needed to maintain momentum so Sauron could not reconsolidate.
Hi Darth!
Did the loss of the Witch King mean anything to Sauron?
I would say it means as much as losing your queen in a chess game.
Sees darth Gandalf
“Oooo I’m listening” lol
I would think a better comparison is the battle of midway. For the japanese, they lost four carriers and it was a crushing defeat that they never recovered from. However, if America had lost the battle in a complete route, they still had huge production capacity. By the end of the war, Halsey's 7th fleet was the greatest Navy ever assembled, and it never engaged the enemy directly.
So to compare, Minas Tirith was important because if the West lost, it would have been a total loss. However, sauron was bloodied, but was not even close to being taken out of the war
Sauron was not threatened. He knew full well that the western Elves were leaving Arda. The last holdouts of men would all fall under his control or be destroyed. Men would come to worship him as a god-king and become his instruments to reshape the world. The only power that could stop him were the Valar and he perceived that they were uninterested in the affairs of the mortal realm.
i think the biggest issue with saying that the free people still had no hope of defeating sauron in traditional conflict is this; it would mean that gandalf was absolutely terrible at his job, to the point of being basically a failure. his purpose in middle earth was to aid the free people in their fight against sauron, and if ultimately their only hope for victory was complete and total luck in finding the ring, then without that lucky chance, gandalf would have failed.
imagine the story of lotr but without them having ever found the ring, or perhaps if gandalf looks into bilbo's ring and it turns out to just be some random elven ring. aragorn uniting the realms of men would have been gandalf's main plan for opposing sauron, which he would only be achieving at effectively the last possible moment after the pelennor fields, and if that wasnt enough to combat sauron, then what the hell has gandalf been doing this whole time? my first question would be why did he wait so long to push his "crown aragorn" plan into motion? if he didnt have numenorean blood in him, aragorn would have probably died of old age by the time gandalf got him a crown, and he certainly wouldnt have had an heir, so the new kingdom of men would have immediately collapsed anyway.
in reality, if the balance of forces was that lopsided, gandalf would have had aragorn crowned and the realms united well before the lotr storyline ever started. otherwise the argument is that gandalf would have been surprised at how strong sauron was, been like "oh shit", started rushing his plan at the last second, only for it to not be enough and for sauron to win anyway, which would make him look insanely incompetent. like "college student procrastinating their final project until the last minute and failing to finish it" levels of incompetent.
I tend to agree with your conclusion; you can compare post-Pelennor Mordor to real-life empires that remained a threat even after a major setback; examples include the Achaemenid Persians after the Greeks defeated them at Marathon and Salamis, the Umayyad Caliphate after their crushing defeat in the 717-718 Siege of Constantinople (best example, since Gondor and Byzantium have many parallels), and the Ottomans after the 1529 Siege of Vienna; all were costly defeats for those invading empires, yet they continued to threaten the forces that defeated them for centuries after.
Good video
Simply put Sauron had been preparing for this war for literally THOUSANDS of years and had made sure to have the reserves and stockpiles of resources on hand to not make this war a repeat of last time. He had the contingency plans in place to recover quickly from any and all setbacks. These defeats while embarrassing and annoying, weren't truly decisive because he still had his base of operations to rebuild and rearms new forces rapidly.
On that Denethor comment, we know that one of the 'enemy' forces he saw actually wasn't, cos it was Aragorn's force on the Black Sailed Ships moving up the Anduin. I know he didn't know that, but it makes you wonder what else he might have misinterpreted.
And if that force at Minas Tirith was 1 finger, then at least 2 more were aimed at Erebor and at the Elves respectively, so he lost 2 (with a 3rd stuck besieging Erebor), not 1. And if we continue that analogy as a hand having 5, then he's only got 2 left.
And even considering more armies marching from the East and South, that is a huge distance, it's unlikely that they would all arrive together or anytime soon - mobilising does not mean marching.
I agree that Sauron still had a massive numerical advantage, but numbers aren't everything. So it was still bad, but wasn't necessarily as hopeless as Denethor thought.
I think the reason Sauron panicked when he saw eregorn in the palentir was because he could unite all men under one banner. Single handedly recruting and amassing a large army if given the time. Alongside the elves and dwarves thru alliances. It might have looked dim but I believe Sauron through that if he gave eregorn more time. Then his checks would get clapped. Strategic victories win wars not numbers. Obviously mentioned in the video. IMO
Sauron was not in trouble, but he was not exercising good generalship or strategy. Mostly, he's the aggressor and he controls the timeline, so if he fails to win a large part of that failure is on him.Minas Morgul should never have been left empty of defenders, and Dol Guldur should not have fallen.
A more professional general would not have attacked all his enemies at once wherever they were on the map until he ran out of troops. Logically, it would make more sense to send additional troops to Dale, on the principle that you should throw an additional resources in the places that you're winning. Alternately, he could have reinforced the Lorien attack by holding off attacking Thranduil.
In short, most real world campaigns are fought by having armies serially attack objectives A, B , and C, regrouping and reinforcing after each battle. In contrast, sauron just divides his armies based on how many threats he has and throws one army at one threat, hoping to conquer them all.
Personally I think sauron did need to attack thranduil, the relationship between the people of Dale, dwarves and woodland elves were better than a century before. If sauron did not attack the woodland relm it was possible that the forces besieging erebor could have been attacked from the rear. And in such an event the forces in erebor would have sallied out to hem in the besieging army.
This is peak armchair Internet 'strategist' garbage, lul.
Indeed.
The campaign in The North, unlike the one in The South, was badly planned and badly conducted.
My handwave is that Sauron didn't give it a great deal of thought, believing that conquest of Gondor was all that really mattered.
@@papapalps2415 Thanks for trying to punch down, but you're swinging wide. Anytime you're fighting and you run yourself out of army you're not doing a good job. You can choose to believe otherwise because Sauron is the big bad and must therefore be an awesome general or because Tolkien is somehow immune to criticism, but that is not warfare in the real world.
@@apstrike One could make excuses for Tolkien in that Sauron's malice and ego caused him to be reckless but I think Tolkien just wanted him to be a threat on a global scale. Even though he says he doesn't do methaphors Sauron was very much Hitler and made the same mistakes as the Nazis.
To be fair, before Gandalf got involved his strategical position was very sound. Denethor was desperate and losing, Theoden was mad and powerless, his armies scattered and Saruman was about to take over Rohan. Suddenly that grey bastard flees Saruman's tower, levels up, dispells Theoden, reunites his armies and crushes Saruman's forces.
And it just keeps going with unlikely events he could not possibly foresee. The oathbreakers, the anti-witchking blade.
Then again, a careful commander would not be in a position where these unlikely event threaten their position. Sauron is not careful.
Ultimately, Sauron is a semi-divine immortal being. The loss at Pelennor was a setback, but as long as the One Ring persists, it should always be possible for him to claw his way back to a position of power. Aragorn is, after all, Isildur's heir, and Isildur fell under the influence of the Ring quickly enough to prevent it's destruction, and he didn't even put it on or otherwise use it's power, so even if he had the One Ring, it might prove his undoing, and with him, Gondor and Rohan.
Sauro, arguably did the best he could, building up and building up and building up, turtling. Knowing the elves just got weaker every year and the men (blood of numenor) also got weaker year after year. While he consolidated supplies and troops, also knowing the in any battle he'll face greater casualties AND that unexpected things could occur, he planned to have reserves for that as well. Still he feared the ring could fall into possession of Elves or Maia, even then he thought he could win with enough amass strength, presumably he feared that his evil upon the easterlings could be broken by a strong human king wearing the ring and lose armies to desertion, or a lose orcs to a Maia with the ring instilling more fear than he could without. Sauron was full of fears, so he prepared and amassed forces. He also enjoyed doing so.
But what he never thought might happen is for someone to forsake the ring... in a way he was right, but in the end the ring was destroyed.
The phrase I have heard people describe as that was the last of sauron's army that was in the west. Which means that he still has all of the orts in the east, though, that is much more dominated by women and children. Similarly, he has easterlings that would not as easily sally fourth. In other words, it's the last. The soldiers that he has without instituting a draft and without draining his training cadres. So if he loses at the black gate, then he would have to take his training reserves conduct a draft and train up new armies. In other words, he can still take this battle without converting to a war economy.
Could you do a video on the Blue Mountains during the Third Age? I often wonder whether the ruins of Belegost and Nogrod were resettled. I like the idea of Thorin and the other dwarf refugees from the Lonely Mountain using parts of those old cities in the construction of the halls they built whilst in exile
They can’t as that whole continent sank into the sea in the war of wrath.
@@mudyao Whilst they were destroyed during the War of Wrath, Tolkien mentions, even during the Third Age, in the Appendices and the Unfinished Tales that dwarves from the Firebeards and Broadbeams existed in the area. "Leaving their old cities" they journeyed to Moria to "swell its numbers." Whilst he never said any of the ruins survived; nor did he say they were completely sunken (one would assume under the Gulf of Lune). I've searched Reddit and it seems most people are divided on the fate of those ancient cities. One quote, which is always brought up is: "There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been - not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm." The part "had been" could mean simply they are accessible ruins; maybe half sunk or buried
Astonishing upvote:downvote ratio, Mate! 2700:4 is incredible
The problem is not that Sauron took losses. It is that Aragorn took the initiative and assaulted him before he had time to recoup. Sauron could lose a thousand battles and in each a million orcs. But it would matter not. As a blade is ground down on a whet stone even the strongest edge will eventually dull. Sauron was in trouble as evidenced by his desperation "There now their Lord was gathering in haste great forces to meet the onslaught of the captains of the West" he was having fortifications dug, trenches and ramparts even behind the black gate, in fear that these Captains of the West might actually beat back his ambush force. For he believed that Aragorn would come bearing the ring, wielding it's power against him. Sauron was fully prepared for the black gate to be potentially breached, but we all know the result of this miscalculation. Far fewer sentries posted along the roads. Patrols that could have captured the halflings were busy digging fortifications behind the black gate or lying in ambush in the hills around it.
With any great empire it's almost impossible to have all your armies in one place. You still need troops in stop revolts, raiders, and wandering beasts. There are many examples of great empires suffering terrible defeats (Napolean, the Spanish Armada, Golden Horde in Poland) but you can never send enough of your troops to break your empire from 1-2 battles.
after the battle of pelennor, if i remember correctly, one of the characters said that mordor can more easily lose an army than gondor a regiment.
So yeah Sauron had sitll a LOT of troupe in reserve
Hi, I'm new here!
note the negotiation at the black gate with the mouth of Sauron. For the terms offered, Sauron would have the fight many battles.
Has anybody ever thought that Sauron thinking that Aragon had the ring and assumed he would be under its influence, so he almost threw the battle of helms deep and pelinor fields. One depleting a smaller force and two giving them a false sense of confidence. Thus delivering the ring to the black gates where they would very out matched.
The magic in LoTR is a soft magic and more or less undefined, but it is made clear in my opinion that the most potent power of the one ring was to cause people to lose themselves in the ideology and symbology of greed at all costs. So long as the symbol was still there the belief that one could atain it for themselves would live on.
Haven't watched the video yet,. so we'll see if what I'm gonna say gets mentioned, but the free people of Middle Earth would have been doomed due to inevitability. The fortresses of Sauron are ancient and deep, and well beyond the abilities of the Free People to assault properly. They were already in an age of deep decline, and Sauron would be able to continually muster more orcs forever to assault them until they simply ran out of people to man their own walls. Their doom wouldn't be immediate, but it would be inevitable
Wasn't this already discussed and answered in your video about Sauron's War plan?
Yes you are right.
In short: operational defeat do not mean strategical defeat. Free Peoples of Middlearth could win another and another operational victories, win another and another compains and battles, but Sauron simply could draft armies, produce weapon and organise new ofensives so, so much faster, that he would eventually sucseed. It was war of atrittion, waged against powerful armies but without strong logistics, manpower replanishment system and generally small manpower pool. In that war Sauron could be deafeted in field literally one hundred times and still be able to raise new armies and attack, when one defeat of FP of Middlearth would bring ultimate defeat and fall of their states. Sauron was delighted to wait for it.
"1 million Persians attacked the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae" is basically your reasoning that that he only sent .01% of his troops to crush everyone? What's he need the ring for if he can just dump an infinite amount of orcs everywhere? He can find the ring after everyone is is dead due to the 100,000 to q troop.count advantage he apparently has but doesn't use ever.
Thats the thing, he doesnt. Sauron never really needed the ring, its something that was expressed several times over the book. He wanted the ring to preven what exactly happened at the end.
@@strider8662 I've read the book. And I fail to see how not just killing all your enemies with your vastly vastly vastly larger army, so there is no one left to destroy the ring wasn't done, as it's his only weakness. And if your army can just go win whenever you snap your fingers, I guess I'm missing the point of him waiting for thosands and thosands of years to just do it.
Or you know, because he didn't actually have millions of troops just standing around with there thumbs up there butts while the tiniest fraction of his army got destroyed.
@@travissapienza4930 because thats not really how a war works here. Having superior numbers dont always speed up the process, especially in the case of Sauron.
Sauron cant win a single fight if it all dependent on it, but he will throw things over and over until the free people have nothing else to offer. Sauron can infinitely refresh its troops, free people cannot. Orcs are mass produced, humans and elves are nurtured.
@@strider8662 Hmm really? Because things sure seemed to speed up the second Saruman built his own army. Now all of a sudden Rohan was down. Which pretty sure Sauron always seems concerned about reinforcing Gondor should his army attack it. But if he could just send another army to be in the way of Rohan while the same sized or bigger army attacked Gondor...Which I'd image he'd do, if he just had another 50000 mass produced orcs like you say he has plenty of laying around.
Sounds like that kills all the birds with one stone. The only two human kingdoms left standing in his way, divided and conquered. The elves feeling middle earth in waves already. The dwarfs barely a factor at this point. But sure. He just had all these extra orcs sitting around he didn't bother to use ever for reasons not adequately explained.
@@travissapienza4930
I think you’re forgetting that Sauron knows that SOMEONE has the ring and he still can’t find it. It was driving him crazy because he knew if it was destroyed then he was fucked. That’s why when Aragorn came to the black gates he thought HE had the ring. Because only a fool who thought he was invincible would even make it to the black gate to begin with.
Would some of the men from the South and East abandon Sauron if it seemed like he was losing? Idk how much control he had over all of them, but if he didn't seem as dominating due to taking heavy losses, would his dark influence wane?
I have a vaguely related question. This might be explained in the book but in the film why are Mumakil sent to help in the battle for Minas Tirith? The film shows even the Witch King being caught off guard by Rohan's arrival. The battle of plenor fields seems to have been unintended by both sides, Morder didn't expect Rohan just as Rohan didn't expect the mumakil. Also going into battle without supporting troops was basically suicide. Even the most modern tanks today still become easy prey if they are unsupported. Reminds me of the stupidity in Empire Strikes back with the at walkers.
So had Rohan not showed up what was their point? Maybe the archers riding the beasts could better pick off soldiers on the wall? But this would not haven been effective or even needed. None of them could have even get through the main gate let alone move within the castles walls.
Also even less vaguely related but it always frustrated me that we never saw the Easterling's in battle. Their uniform/armour was probably my favorite next to the tower guards of gondor and the Ithilien rangers. I also liked that they seemed to have a bit more going for them compared to the much too obviously Arab/middle Eastern inspired Haradrim and the merc pirates also from the east (... The east, geddit?) .
As wonderful a writer as Tolkein was he was sometimes a little too vague. In the books, as said in video, Denethor said the army Sauron lost at Pelennor fields was but one finger of his hand, so 20%? Basically Sauron had a lot more of them in places but we only have vague descriptions like a great host here a vast swarm there. So did he have enough to win? Maybe.
I'm going to make a real world comparison here. It is a different era and some of it is applicable and some of it isn't. It the Overland Campaign of 1864 after Ulysses S. Grant took over command of union forces in the American Civil War.
Like Grant, Sauron knew he was fighting a much weaker opponent where all he needed to do was force his opponent into a pitched battle and the numbers would eventually win the day. In the Overland Campaign Grant did exactly this and even after suffering horrendous casualties he just keep advancing because he knew that he had reserves and could replenish his casualties where his opponent could not. This earned Grant the unfortunate moniker of "The butcher."
After Pelennor Gondor and Rohan had won but at a enormous cost and had effectively been wiped out as any sort of fighting force. Yes Sauron had lost his best battlefield commander in the Witch King but he also had other ring-wraiths and his enemies had been devastated. Sauron had wisely held back reserves in Mordor and all he needed to do was muster a force and go finish the job. He had effectively already won despite losing since Pelennor could be called a phyrric victory or even a strategic loss. To his surprise his enemies came to him...
i like what im hearing darth tell me more😊
We all know that Theoden was...
The very fact that he was in no danger once so ever in Mordor of any assault like he faced earlier means he would’ve won even if it took 100 years, the elves were leaving, and his forces grow exponentially faster than Gondor or any of the other free peoples, the only danger he faced was the destruction of the ring which he could not conceive until it was upon him
If Frodo failed his quest, would the Valar just allow Sauron to take over middle earth?
Yes, why not?
Even though Sauron keeps technically losing battles his soldiers have a lot less value.
The Free People need their soldiers more than Sauron needs his.
The only thing stoping Saurn from completly sweeping away Middle Earth is logistics.
It's very tough to equip, move and feed his entire army at the same time.
Now I am curious; how much could Sauron see with his palantir? He supposedly had free range with it.
Sauron also needs to keep a reserve army in case the Umbar, Harad, Khand, Variags, and Rhun decided to be independent and Zerg rush Mordor to the ground
Those kingdoms combined are a bigger threat than Gondor
He doesn’t have rings of power to dominate those kingdoms. He needed those rings to keep his Nazgûl’s alive.
The captains of the free peoples know that Sauron is not in trouble and that unless the Ring is destroyed they will ultimately be overrun, even if Sauron doesn’t have it. But Sauron doesn’t know that they have refused it and sent it into Mordor for destruction. If, as he believes, Aragorn or Gandalf has the Ring, then he is in grave danger indeed.
Sauron has great logistics!
On the last part, yes you are either fighting in the War of the rings or WW1.
Having only couple of small passages works both ways to blockade Sauron’s armies
I don't think sauron could have marched another army against Gondor that year for logistics, but he could try again in a year or two.
The goblins lost at Erebor and couldn't claim the lonely mountain.
Dol Guldur tried to assault Lorien and Mirkwood multiple times but we're driven back and were finally destroyed by Galadriel.
Isengard failed to take Helms deep and the ents finished them off.
Mordor was defeated at Minas Tirith along with men of Harad and Easterlings.
And finally they lost the battle of the black gate and Sauron was destroyed.
All in all the third age didn't go so well for Sauron, bro couldn't catch a break.
8:35 I thought Aragorn revealed himself after the Battle of the Pelennor fields? Or was that just in the Peter Jackson films?
He first sees Aragorn when they are at Edoras, when Pippin picks up the Palantir
also seems to me orcs and goblins multiply and grow a fair bit faster then the other races aswell as being way more warlike so their soldier count would vastly increase then the western races.
Sir did you mean was?
even if sauron would lose massive amounts of troops. as long as the ring existed he would end up winning in the end, the only way for him to lose was for the ring destruction something that he couldn't fathom happening.
Of course he wasn’t in trouble.
Why?
Because one doesn’t simply walk into Mordor
True; they climbed into Mordor