Still thought this video was amazing (both editing + material). Glad it showed up on my homepage, hope you keep making more vegan content. FWIW I got an ex to go vegan by morally calling her out ("wtf are you doing") on still supporting horrendous cruelty a couple months after watching Earthlings with me. But I'd also eaten tons of vegan meals with her already so I'd somewhat normalized the lifestyle for her. She just needed that push over the edge and some confidence that she could do it. That said, it's n=1, and it's a unique situation when you're dating someone and they're highly invested in what you think of them while living in a sort of bubble with you. But I've also observed that many vegans differ in what made them vegan. Some watch Dominion and go vegan instantly; some watch Dominion and it does nothing for them, but Gary's famous speech turns them vegan; some go plant-based for health/environmental reasons and then much later go vegan for ethical reasons. (Would be interesting to know if there are larger-scale stats on this stuff.)
This video changed my life for the better. I'm not sure this was necessarily your intention, but I'm going to try a lot harder to have my morals inform my actions, instead of the other way around. Thank you, from a new sub :)
As a vegan, who is trying to become better at the art of persuasion, debate, and leadership; I’m watching this video everyday😂! EXTREMELY well done video👏🏼! And love your eye-opening philosophical and psychological points & refreshing perspective👏🏼! Can’t wait to hear more from you!
This was such an amazing video! I recently turned vegan, been vegetarian for the past 3 1/2 years, and went into this thinking it would be a video arguing against veganism. I decided to watch it anyway, to learn about another point of view, because i dont wanna get stuck in my bubble. I was pleasantly suprised when I heard your arguments, because you showed understanding for both sides, supported by scientific studies and concluded a solution in the end. My mother was never a fan of me being vegetarian and now that I am vegan I thought she would absolutely hate that decision, but when I started cooking for her and showed her what is possible she was intrigued. As of today it is her third day of cooking vegan in a row for ME and she is thrilled. We went vegan shopping a couple days ago and she got herself vegan milk, cheese etc. Its so sweet seeing her having so much fun and I think we have to support that. Veganism is not just about restricting yourself, you should have fun with it too. Great stuff, I subscribed and I'm excited to see more! Love your thought process!
If it’s highly processed, like “vegan milk”, it’s full of soy (horrible for you) and many other toxins. Just cuz it’s “vegan” doesn’t mean it’s healthy.
@@aWomanFreed hi, thanks for your comment, but I dont understand what it has to do with my comment. I never mentioned soy in vegan products or that its healthy, i was just talking about how happy it made me and my mom
I wrote like a whole ass essay, but accidentally deleted it. I was gonna copy and paste it into docs to check for typos, but my ctrl key didn't work so I just replaced the whole essay with "c". I guess this just gives me an opportunity to be more concise. I am a vegan, and I have never understood how people could possibly eat meat while still including animals in their moral circle. Kicking a dog is wrong but eating a burger is right? it simply didn't make sense to me, and this video helped me realize that people feel like they don't have a choice. They think being vegan is too hard or expensive or inconvenient, so they don't even try, even if they think it's wrong. I mean, are we any better? Even now I am wearing clothes that most likely came from a sweatshop. The cobalt in my computer likely came from mines with conditions so bad it might as well be slavery. And yet, despite these facts, I don't plan to boycott electronics, or only buy american made union products. The reason for this? I don't think I have a choice. I believe that the quality of my life would severely decrease, and my life would become much more inconvenient and expensive if I did these things, and so I don't, despite me supporting clearly morally abhorrent industries. People who eat meat while thinking it is wrong must clearly feel the same way. This leads me to perhaps an unsettling realization, human existence, or at least our way of life, necessitates suffering. Even with a vegan diet, industrial tilling kills burrowing rodents, and forests are burned to grow the crops that feed us (granted less forests would be burned if everyone was vegan but I digress). In essence, we are hypocrites. Mind you this doesn't make us wrong. It is very clearly true that we (as the human race) should seek to minimize the suffering our existence causes, but perhaps I understand the other side a little bit better. They feel they don't have a choice, and neither do we. Also I right clicked this time. Too easy. Can you believe the first time around it was even more wordy/rambling?
Organic no-till farming is starting to become more popular thankfully. Believe it or not, growing food the way nature intends results in more bushels/acre.
I clicked on this video expecting it to be some silly anti-vegan video that would give me a quick laugh but it turned out to be a really excellent attempt to answer the question of why do ethical arguments for veganism struggle so much to persuade people. This is a very insightful and thought provoking video, well done.
As a vegan who has recently lapsed into vegetarian after 7 solid years, I really appreciate this perspective. Making the focus animal liberation and focusing on the positive side of veganism could be far more effective.
As a conservative who admittedly enjoys meat, I found this video one of the most eye-opening and well-phrased I've seen in a while. I could see your little string web working out in real time within my own head, and I'm honestly considering making changes, even though this was technically made as a critique.
Spagetti sauce with lintels instead of hamburger. One doesn't need to presoak lintels. Cook lintels...add sauce... extra sage gives a sausage like flavor. Garlic! Easy!
I always love seeing people being open to making changes and trying to do their best. While I am a leftist who does not eat a lot of meat, I really do not like how a lot of leftist accuse all conservatives of just not having empathy or even not caring about the same issues. I defiantly also prefer videos like this and I can see how is more approachable as it just encourages people to make better choices while offering both information and another perspective on things. I think the critiques in this go for a lot of progressive issues and how they are discussed not just veganism, even a lot of the human rights issues that are increasingly an issue in the west.
btw good luck with your mission on personal growth, that is really amazing! Vegan chilli is easy you just add more veg and beans, you barely notice the lack of meat if you adjust the seasoning to your taste. When easing into eating less meat a really fun way is trying new foods and ingredients, makes it more exciting rather than focusing on the lack of meat or trying to replace it outright.
@@erik7647 Hi Erik, very well said. I’m from a farm background in the U.S. and we actually raised beef, my partner’s family raised dairy and we have been vegan now for many years (occasionally fish and small farm eggs but mostly vegan). Our politics and religion are progressive and this is awkward sometimes…especially since Trump and Covid…But we relate very well to both sides of our families. Farm country is very, very complicated and conflicted. For example, my father in law was recently describing a tax dispute that nearly came to a fist fight…should higher productive farmland be taxed at a higher rate per acre of production than lower productive farmland? This was very divisive to the farmers involved. Should Chinese shell companies own farmland and food production factories? Is there a limit to how much farmland Bill Gates can own? A farmer down to his last nickel is a Democrat (who votes Republican anyway) A farmer with two nickels to rub together is a Republican.
Sometimes I really wonder if non-vegans genuinely think veganism is too inconvenient for them. I get that argument from my close friends and family who routinely watch me and dramatically overemphasize any slight inconvenience I have with veganism. At work, we have potlucks and without fail there are 3 or 4 co-workers of mine that will tell everyone about their dish and they always make an announcement to the office that it’s such a shame that I can’t eat their food because I’m vegan. This has been going on once a month for about 4 straight years now. And sometimes when I go out to eat with my friends, the restaurant of choice has lousy vegan options, so my dinner looks pathetic. Then, my friends make it a point to shake their head and thank goodness they aren’t vegan. It’s not hard for them to think back a week earlier when the other restaurant we went to made me a great meal, but they conveniently forget that event. I do think that making the moral argument for animal rights is still an imperative, because in the end I think a lot of people are only partially convinced by it. Even when veganism is a practical option in people’s lives, they can convince themselves it’s not, because they have only a slight impression that veganism is more moral than exploiting animals. In the end, I think a big problem with present vegan advocacy is focusing on harm reduction and suffering in places where liberty is what motivates people. That’s what brought about the American Revolution, the abolition of human slaves, the fight for free labor and unionization, and it’s what will liberate animals. In fact, this is the most common argument against veganism: the notion that we’re overall decreasing liberty in order to lower harm. If that’s the narrative we allow to antivegans to peddle, veganism has no foreseeable chance of ever becoming a normal practice in the West. We have to focus on the fact that animal right and animal liberation are truly the logical conclusion of prioritizing liberty.
Great video. For me, going vegan actually was surprisingly easy and not even that inconvenient. I'll try communicating those points more when I talk to people about veganism
I had a similar experience. For years I built it up in my head as being really hard and inconvenient, that I wouldn't have anything to eat that I enjoy and I wouldnt be able to go out anywhere and eat. But when I finally committed to it I had so much fun learning to cook different meals, I discovered so many new places I could eat through social media groups and happy cow, and the people around me ended up being way more supportive and accommodating than I ever expected. My only regret is that I waited so long before going vegan.
Great video! For me, the ethical argument was always convincing, but I am not most people. I really like your way of approaching this problem: tackling the beliefs that actually hold people back. Because, ultimately, pointing the moral finger never really works beyond small, progressive circles. It just makes people less inclined to listen to you.
Absolutely agree with this. I've been ethically in favor of veganism (although I don't really see an issue with ethically produced eggs or honey), but because of personal circumstances it's not really possible for me to fully transition to a plant based diet right now. Oh also, one small thing I do disagree with is that conservatives value freedom. They might voice it, some might even think they value it, but their conception of freedom is incredibly narrow and self-involved (freedom for me, not for thee).
Freedom for me but not for thee is the most accurate statement ever used to describe a Democrat, and politicians in general. Conservatives want freedom, and some have mental blocks preventing them from brining themselves the whole 9 yards. Democrats and liberals want things, and see freedom as a useful tool of argument to get them.
@@antoniusnies-komponistpian2172 I'd even say with many conservatives and conservative liberals you can just plainly insert "private property" whenever they say "freedom".
this video is so great. it’s succinct and lucid and kinda clickbaited me in line with the topic since, as a non vegan, i interpreted the title as “there’s a problem with moral veganism so you don’t have to go vegan actually.” i have a lot of vegan/vegetarian friends and i admire it but i’m a terribly picky eater and absolutely hate vegetables so given my history of malnutrition i’ve never even considered veganism a possibility for myself. i think next time i go to the supermarket i’ll pick up some vegan chicken nuggets 👍
If you can name any specific nutrients you won't be able to get on a planned vegan diet then ask yourself if it's really harder for you to eat a couple new vegetables or for billions of animals to be tortured.
@@morrobarry yo, the whole point of the video is that this kind of argument doesn't work. Like, did you not watch the video you're commenting on? This person is about to put effort into changing their diet, don't go scare them off!
Disliking veg is a difficult problem, but with a bit of effort it is certainly changeable. I'm not an expert but in my experience, trying things similar to what you do like is a good place to start - if you like potatoes, try sweet potatoes, then maybe other starchy veg like carrots, parsnips. Another good way to begin your veg journey is to change the textures, instead of steaming, try roasting or sautéing, maybe parboil, cool then roast/fry. You could try soups and even sieve the fibrous bits out and eventually you'll start to enjoy the flavour so much you'll want the veg itself! Hope this helps
This really hits home. Years ago I struggled with the idea that people could and would understand but reject veganism. It became a huge frustration. Since, and with an assist from the pandemic, I've understood a lot more about social psychology and the resistance to logic. I stopped engaging in debates and have been happy to satirize or promote local vegan options.
I also don't feel as compelled to debates anymore themselves, but rather just because they're entertaining (watching some conman get destroyed). BECAUSE, they're not as convincing, and hence, fascinating, as I thought they were. Offering someone a joint and just talking to them as they would expect a normal, but affable person to, seems more effective to me now.
Thank you for the work you put in the video! You've given me an explanation for my actions in the past 3 weeks. I've been living and working on a vegan sanctuary for 3 months at the end of last year and turned vegan just like that, because it was easy and accessible, not missing anything. But since I've come back home to Germany I began to eat meat again and was shocked how "normal" it felt since I have no daily contact with the amazing intelligent funny pigs anymore. I am in moral conflict with myself and caught myself in the process of questioning my morals proven by experiences made on the farm. Cognitive dissonance is so easy! Since every one around me here isn't vegan, even vegetarian, I have to make a daily conscious effort to not eat animal products anymore, because I am living in a cruel system not made for vegans. I know I still have a personal responsibility to change my behavior, but systems really have an influence, especially with habits when my willpower is exhausted due to other hard decisions on a particular day. And one last point, I think we humans usually change through connection and relationships. The deep connection to my fellow human, non-human beings or my environment drives my behavior to take responsibility for my actions. I think we are far too estranged and alienated from these relationships nowadays. At least I am.
This was really interesting and informative. One thing to add though is that even with all that many people are happy to reduce meat consumption or even go vegan, but fine with people continuing to do so and animals being viewed and treated as commodities. And with that, things would stay the same for animals. People are more focused on trying to get people to stop eating burgers, than on what will actually liberate animals. The problem of eating them is just a symptom of a misunderstanding of them and a consequence of our relationship to them. This is reflected in the fact we think forms of violence and exploitation are always wrong, but if it’s done to an animal, once in a while is fine. It’s only always wrong when it’s a human. No one would claim that it’s okay to eat the meat of a human child bred raised and abused for that purpose, sometimes. To people, it’s just a cow or a pig. And yeah they can feel sad for them, but they don’t relate to or empathise with them in that way. The brain of a cow or pig is foreign to them, because of how we’ve been taught and conditioned to see them, and because of psychic numbing. But I definitely think, people subconsciously choose not to open that door mentally, because of the perceived difficulty effort and energy that would than be required to take action and the discomfort that would cause, like you said they don’t feel empowered to change. I think the biggest solution though is changing how animals are viewed and perceived, the veganism being easier would then follow on. But identifying with the experience of an animal is that driving force, and is what causes disgust when seeing them harmed. A lot of people have this experience through seeing something like Earhlings but then because they don’t know what to do next to change they push it to the back of their mind, so it is a two step solution. But changing the way people see animals is what leads not to just changing individuals, but systemic change, which is the real solution.
My problem with CosmicSkeptic and other vegan RUclips content creators is this video's topic in a nutshell. Moralism before talking about material and social conditions on the ground. Not the other way around, except when it's about religion or politics. We ought to change our intuitions before our reasons, since it's easier. If I move to Nepal or New Delhi, I'll be able to transition to a vegan diet more easily. It's hard to be vegan in Southeast Asia especially nowadays since some staple grains and vegetables have become more expensive than other options since the pandemic and the Ukraine war. India and Nepal make veganism convenient because the vegan option sustains the culture and society at its "foundations" to use the term loosely. Most moral reasoning is post-hoc the way I see it. I really think veganism is the best of food ethics out there, but the barrier of entry especially in countries where the agriculture sector (Philippines) is poor and underfunded or non-existent (Singapore) is difficult. So I end up eating meat and poultry because of convenience, my palate, and no affordable local (Filipino/Malay/Indonesian) cuisine alternatives to look towards. Poor food in the Philippines, for example, is dried fish, rice, soy sauce, and vinegar, and it's hard in today's Philippine economy to get enough caloric intake with now-expensive veggies. The negative PR will die out I'm sure, but I just want to be able to transition more easily to eventually live on mushrooms, tofu, rice, etc.
The definition of veganism accounts for this, it's about minimising your contribution to animal abuse as much as practical for you. Most vegan diets also harm animals, just less so than non-vegan diets. So the important question isn't can you eliminate all animal products from your diet: it's could you be doing more to stop animal cruelty?
I don't think veganism is the most ethical way of eating. Because of the amount of importation necessary in the vast majority of countries around the world.... We should strive for food autonomy and eating as locally as possible before eliminating animal products. The thing is in some region it is impossible to eliminate all animal products, like the most northern region... The Inuit traditional diet is very meat heavy and I wouldn't call it unethical.
@@miss1of2 Interesting, if it's emissions you're worried about studies show a vegan diet is by far the best. If it isn't about the emissions then why specifically do you care whether food is imported? As for geographic limitations the definition of veganism takes this into account. It's about minimising the amount of animal abuse, not necessarily completely stopping it. But I assume you're not an Inuit, so cutting out animal products entirely is an option for you.
Much love from an ethical vegan (and occasional social smoker 😔) !! You brought up many ideas I’ve thought about over the years but wouldn’t have been able to communicate so eloquently. My “mild activist phase” as a vegan waned pretty quickly (I’m nearing the 10 year mark now too). I was never super preachy, but I guess there was an underlying belief that people needed to really confront the cruelty side of things in order for them to change. It became clear that many people (especially conservatives and older folk) were not receptive no matter how you came at the argument. Indeed, logic didn’t seem to matter! Random anecdotal experience: I’ve had 3 boyfriends go mostly or entirely vegan/vegetarian without me asking or expecting them to. And I’ve also had left leaning acquaintances who knew I was vegan immediately assume I was the judgey vegan warrior stereotype, being aggressively defensive, despite me not saying a word about it or giving a fk ?! Humans are weird. Anyway, here’s to normalisation and leading by example 🥂 great video!
I take some issue with a few of your conclusions, but also commend you on your thoughtful approach. I think your most important moment is when you showed that ease and convenience drive so much of what people do, even if it means contradicting themselves. Let me give you my background before I comment further. I am 55 years old. I became vegetarian in college, and remained so for about 10 years, and then in a surprising parallel experience to your own, went vegan because my partner and roommate decided she was going vegan. Since we almost always ate together, it was just so much easier to be vegan too. I remained vegan for about 13 years (my partner and I parted ways after 10 of them), until I started working for a local farm to find out why their produce was so superior to what I'd been eating all my life. The simple answer turned out to be a focus on incredibly healthy, humus rich soil built up by composting vegetable scraps and manure (with a few other natural additives) over time. While running the farm's CSA program, I began to bring in products from other local farms to limit what our members needed to go to a grocery store to get. The first of those items was eggs, which many of them asked about. After listening to them rant and rave about the superior quality and flavor of these eggs, I was frequently reminded of how much I used to love an occasional egg, and decided to add them back to my diet. To be clear, the life of the hens laying the eggs I was selling looked nothing like the horrific conditions in industrial egg farms. So began to ask myself why I was vegan. The answer I landed on was cruelty towards animals raised in an industrial food system. Of course, I was not confined to getting my food from that system. I watched dozens of videos, I spoke with passion against the industrial food system in public. But when I looked around at the farms I became familiar with who raised animals for meat, I saw none of that, and realized there was very little if anything I could identify as cruel at any of them. These are farmers who go to great efforts to offer their animals a cushy life. Where we are likely to differ is that I do not buy into the idea that the mere fact of having to kill them for food equates to cruelty. Now to my further commentary: 1) Were it not for meat, it is likely humanity would have gone extinct long, long ago. Humans had to be opportunistic eaters to survive, and that fundamental connection to meat goes back hundreds of thousands of years. If you think people can or will just ignore that, you are fooling yourself. 2) If you think that connection is not powerful, perhaps you can offer an explanation as to why most vegans consider it important to find meat and dairy alternatives that mimic meat and dairy in every way. Turns out a lot of people who go vegan still want the mouth feel and the satisfaction they used to get from eating meat and dairy. I find this feature of veganism the most telling and problematic. Why problematic? 3) Many vegan foods are highly or ultra processed, including and especially the meat alternatives. (Israel is trying to scale up lab-grown meat, which they claim means it is not from an animal.) 4) Growing the raw materials for all that plant based meat means monocultures, big ones, cutting diversity from the landscape, and it is usually grown industrially (even if "organic"). Take a look at how many animals farming on that scale kills, I was shocked when I learned. We aren't talking about animals bred for human consumption like cows, chickens, and pigs, in this case we are talking the myriad of wild species who took up residence in the fields, the land, or the plants growing upon it, killed while famers planted or harvested those fields. Personally those deaths disturb me far more than those of domesticated species, who literally exist as a food source for humanity. We may be grossly mismanaging it, but that does not mean the industrial approach is the only way. 5) The option to go vegan is one of privilege, because until very recently in our history refusing to eat animal products would have meant your death, probably by starvation or malnutrition. It is therefore somewhat elitist to talk about going vegan without understanding that 100 years ago, you wouldn't even have had the option. No doubt you'll point to ancient Greece, but I will counter that ancient Greece was also an elite, highly developed society that in no way characterizes most societies throughout human history. The human history eating meat goes much, much farther back than that. 6) Ruminants help the land, and because no herds large enough to provide that service exist in the wild in North America anymore, we have to graze domestic animals to gain those benefits. If you have domestic animals, and they are breeding, you w9ill eventually have too many. Now they are overgrazing the land. Not to mention, every one will die. To ignore such a prolific food source, especially one created by and for human consumption, under those circumstances seems to make no sense. And that killer compost I was talking about, the kind that makes fruits and veggies more flavorful and nutritious, that requires large amounts of manure. 7) While a small group, there are some prominent vegans who found their health deteriorating until they added animal products back in. So being vegan is clearly not for everyone, and it seems important to me that any conversation on this subject address all of these things. I wish Americans especially would cut way down on meat consumption. Americans eat an average of 275# of meat a year per person, I might eat 10 -12#, maybe. I also think we should require any person who intends to eat meat in a given year, to participate in the killing and processing of the types of animals in their diet. That might actually be enough to shift people out of high meat consumption, and would certainly help reconnect them with the notion that they are eating real animals, not just a steak under plastic. I know plenty of people who have no stomach for that piece of the puzzle. I also think the higher cost of conscientiously-raised meat would force people to eat less of it. I still cook vegan all the time, I'm just not exclusive to it. I believe it is a real turn-off for people when this debate is framed as all or nothing. I am a conscientious eater. I buy from conscientious farmers. I am fortunate that my town has two totally local, whole animal butchers who also source from farms that show respect the animals they raise. Too often this conversation omits any mention of the space I inhabit, or the existence of farms that really do care, and I find that sad. I know, this was quite a long comment, but you also went for it in your video. Perhaps I've given you and your fans something to think about. I am not against veganism, I am just more realistic in its benefits and detriments, and want for the conversation to be comprehensive. Thanks.
You brought up some really good points but your 4. point is in my opinion problematic. You argue that to grow the base for processed vegan alternatives many wild animals have to die which even if it's correct (which I would argue it is but only for industrial monoculture agriculture which is quite common in the us where you are probably from but not nearly as common in europ where smaller scale farms ar the more common and the landscape is more diverse through agriculture) is a flawed approach since something around of 90% or more of all soy beans just an example are used to feed animals that are slaughtered.. What you critic here is a problem with the way agriculture done nowadays and something that has to change completely unrelated from the vegan discussion... Vegans do not cause these conditions they are caused by the need for extreme efficiency (even though it is an unsustainable way to farm) that is needed to compete in the market if the meat consumption would decrease ther would be more land available to grow sustainably (sustainable doesn't always mean less efficient) and thus cause overall way less harm. I myself come from a farm and I agree with your point that everybody should have to come in contact with the slaughter of animals (ideally kill) themselve) if they want to eat meat.
1) "Were it not for meat, it is likely humanity would have gone extinct long, long ago..." The survival strategies of our ancestors do not dictate what is appropriate or necessary for the survival of modern humans. Moreover our ancestral diets were extremely varied depending on when and where the specific ancestors you want to look at hailed from; for example, modern-day Inuit peoples tend to consume a lot of calories from animal sources (especially in winter), whereas the Rarámuri typically obtain the majority of their calories from plant sources. 2) "Perhaps you can offer an explanation as to why most vegans consider it important to find meat and dairy alternatives that mimic meat and dairy in every way." Depends on what you mean by "most". Most Indian vegans aren't particularly hung up on mock meats and dairy alternatives, but I'm sure many American vegans feel differently. Taste and texture preferences are largely socio-cultural. This is why people tend to prefer their mother's cooking (most of the time), and why immigrants set up grocery stores and restaurants offering the foods and meals one would commonly find in their home countries. 3) "Many vegan foods are highly or ultra processed..." Many FOODS are highly processed. Period. The point of a comparison is to compare like with like. A vegan chicken nugget is about as processed as a non-vegan chicken nugget, whereas potatoes and eggs are both whole/unprocessed foods. On the subject of eggs vs potatoes, a single egg contains nearly 10% of the RDA for saturated fat and and whopping 62% of RDA for cholesterol, eat just two boiled eggs and you'll have already exceeded the daily limit for cholesterol by nearly a quarter. Potatoes on the other hand, contain no saturated fat and no cholesterol and have the added benefit of being packed with fibre, a nutrient most people living in developed countries are extremely deficient in. 4) "Growing the raw materials for all that plant based meat means monocultures..." The vast majority of monocultures exist purely to sustain livestock. Human diets are extraordinarily varied when contrasted with our farmed animal counterparts, because unlike cows, chickens, pigs, sheep, etc. we are not forced to consume the same two or three crops (maize, alfalfa, soy, grass, hay, silage, etc.) for the entirety of our lives. The number of unintentional deaths brought about by crop production would be many magnitudes smaller than it is today if everyone adopted a plant-based diet. 5) "The option to go vegan is one of privilege..." The is simply not true. Animal product consumption is highest in highly developed countries, while the inverse is true of the poorest countries. Peasants and labourers subsisted primarily on grains and tubers for millennia, not out of choice, but because these foods were the least resource intensive (and therefore inexpensive) foods available to them. In modern times, subsidies in places like the EU and the US have made it possible for the lower classes to be able to purchase and consume animal products more regularly, but vegan staples like potatoes, oats, beans, flour, etc. are still some of the cheapest products on the market throughout the globe. 6) "Ruminants help the land..." This is a myth. "Published comparisons of grazed and ungrazed lands in the western US have found that rested sites have larger and more dense grasses, fewer weedy forbs and shrubs, higher biodiversity, higher productivity, less bare ground, and better water infiltration than nearby grazed sites" (Carter et al., 2014).-For more information on this topic I highly recommend reading the Carter paper, it's available to read for free in the International Journal of Biodiversity and can be easily understood by laypersons. Far from grazing helping to store carbon, it seems to have the opposite effect: the evidence strongly suggests that livestock reduce carbon storage rather than raising it. In terms of total greenhouse gas emissions, the intensive grazing of cattle on grasslands can be even worse than producing them in feedlots (Daryanto et al., 2013; Fernandez et al., 2008; Pelletier et al., 2010). 7) "While a small group, there are some prominent vegans who found their health deteriorating..." This is anecdotal evidence, it tells us precisely nothing about whether plant-based diets are good for human health because we do not know exactly which dietary component(s) was/were the source of these individuals health problems, nor whether their issues were dietary in nature to begin with. Thankfully, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (the largest body of nutrition experts in the world) have released a peer-reviewed consensus statement to clear up any confusion: "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fibre and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements" (Melina et al., 2016). Hope this answered your questions satisfactorily!
2. Most American vegans grew up eating meat, dairy, and veggies. Vegan alts need to appeal to things people already like. Vegans aren't the only people who want plant based options. I like having chik'n nuggets 5. you are ignoring a lot of Asian, African, and American history. There are places around the world where veganism isn't elite. To the extent that it is elite in America, the issue is food deserts and processed meats being so subsidized and cheap. 6. I agree with your take here. A very underappreciated point
"I do not buy into the idea that the mere fact of having to kill them for food equates to cruelty" This is an incredibly important point I find people tend to skip. I am not opposed to killing and eating animals - I find zero moral issues with it. It is rather the conditions that they currently suffer due to factory farming and overconsumption that I have a moral issue with. Therefore eating meat is not the issue. It is the symptoms of the processes we currently use to make said meat available for such a large and hungry population that is the issue. That statement of course raises even more questions and potential problems. All I'm really saying is that it is not a black and white issue.
@@TwoForFlinchin1 Humans history has been extended recently, now stretching back almost 3 millions years. For nearly all of that time humans would eat anything edible, anything that kept us fed and alive to the next day. Sure, we can both point to some examples of peoples throughout history adopting a vegetarian or vegan diet, but there is no record of any philosophical reasons for this. Most likely any early vegetarians or vegans ate that way because that's what was practical to eat. I'd be willing to bet that of the few ancient vegan or vegetarian communities that once existed, if it was eat the animal or starve, they ate the animal. That's what's different about today. If you don't want to eat animal products, there are ample options available. Not the case for most peoples in history. Opportunistic eating was a necessity, not a choice. I've been looking for a story I read a few years ago about a tribe in a jungle who appeared to be eating a vegan diet. When western scientists observed this they introduced insecticides to help them kill the insects sometimes found in or on the food, and shortly thereafter the tribe started showing signs of malnutrition. Turns out their food supply often included small to tiny insects that were providing important nutrients they needed. When the researchers looked more closely at their food supply they discovered this. So superficially, they appeared to be vegan, but in actuality they were not. What we do know is that based on many ancient art and burial sites around the world with animal bones showing stone tool marks, that humans in most places, throughout most of our history, have eaten animal products.
On the other hand, such things are a common attention shifting manipulation, created (willingly or not) by the ruling class in order not to solve major problems of humanity... There should be different priorities. First - there should be no exploitation of humans. And much more numerous and much more suffering majorities of population in poorest countries are more important, than slightly affended minorities in rich countries. Till millions of people die from starvation each year, thouthands - each day (and mostly - in poor countries, that EXPORT food onto rich markets, including both meat and food for vegans), that problem should be a main thing to work on. And, there should be no destruction of complete ecosystems and populations, both animal and human. To create a banana or cocoa plantation, to grow coffee or oil palms, that would create a marketing efficient "nature friendly food", you need to wipe out a big portion of rainforest. With all of it's species... Of course, that is also done for pastures sometimes, but much more rarely. Many regions of Earth - semideserts, steppes, savannas, taiga or tundra are absolutely not good for agriculture, but - perfect for husbandry or hunt. If you would try to turn Mongols or Aleuts into vegans, you would just kill them, whole their society... Saving ecosystems is more important, than saving individual species, saving species is more important, than saving particular animals. Only when it would be done, it would be possible to speak about ending the exploitation of animals.
I’ve been vegan for about 4 years at this point and it took me a year and a half after beginning to discover the horrors of the meat and dairy industry to go vegan. What pushed me over the edge was the discovery that vegan ice cream and yoghurt exists. That’s it. The fact that a food I enjoyed and had frequently would be readily available to me in vegan form. That comfort in knowing I wouldn’t be abandoning everything I loved eating took away the fear I had of going vegan.
I sort of agree. Yes, normalization is a far more compelling force than philosophy-catering arguments typically are. But it seems like you're suggesting that these approaches are somehow mutually exclusive ("And so they're not logically thinking about their cruelty at all", 18:15) or that argumentative appeals are unremarkable when countless people have responded in contradiction to that narrative. Vegan after vegan - RUclipsrs like Ask Yourself, Dr. Avi, Joey Carbstrong, Mic the Vegan, Vegan Gains, and seemingly yourself ("And it's the thing that convinced me to go vegan ten or so years ago - kind of science behind animal cognition and the rich in our lives that animals lead", 3:42-3:49) - show us people that people are compelled by arguments to an extent. And, given the number of people who became vegan/vegan activists/popular vegan voices that inspired many vegans, it's not fair to so quickly disregard vegan philosophy. In a sense, yes, those vegans became vegan because of an intuitive/disgust-reactive basis. However, they were probably disgusted/intuitively dissatisfied by the implications of their arguments upon presentation of good counter arguments, leading them to rectify their behavior. Vegans commanded by intuition are also often vegans who reached those intuitions through arguments. Approximately 90% of vegans became vegan for the reason of animal welfare (Veggly), after all. Therefore, these strategies can be and should be cooperative: two integral parts of the greater puzzle. The vegan arguments aren't perfectly satisfactory, but neither is normalization as an activist method. The sheer existence of vegans demonstrates that normalcy isn't the utmost priority of each and every person - it can be almost irrelevant to some. Sometimes, there has to be something deeper. How you expect 99% of the global population to reconsider their ethical intuitions regarding animal product dieting, without instrumenting some argument, is unclear to me. When two people can choose between a regular cheeseburger and an Impossible burger, even if both were equally available, healthy, normal, and delicious, why would one effectively not just coin flip at that point? Maybe instead they decide that continuing the tradition of eating animal products is vital? What pushes the non-vegan to select the vegan option in this grand hypothetical? God forbid we speak in our world now, where vegan products usually suck, aren't good alternatives aesthetically, lack certain nutritional assets, and aren't remotely as intuitive as animal products are. There has to be some further force to give greater consideration to the vegan option, especially now when we don't have the luxuries of aesthetic or social equivalence. And it will likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back: argumentative content. When you mention that many people are willing to consider a vegan diet if it's a viable and highly accessible alternative, you cannot ignore that this likely has something to do with said people acknowledging the existence of animal cruelty as a weighing factor. Ethically, nutritionally, or environmentally compelling reasons, it doesn't really matter: one of them will probably be the deciding factor to beat out the non-vegan option. Philosophy's something we must utilize, additionally to increasing access to alternatives, presenting a good image, asking loved ones to share vegan meals with us. It's the same for vegan activism and political activism: many, many, many strategies are how you win people over, not singular efforts that risk alienating important demographics and potentially supportive community leaders.
Yeah, for me, it just took understanding the science and getting to know nonhumans since i had v little interaction with nonhuman animals before becoming vegan.. it was easy to buy that they were automatons :(
this is such a great video. i love the philosophical explaination, it makes so much sense honestly. ive been vegan since i was 16 so i decided my actions based on morals in that case, but i can see how i use logic to justify my actions and avoid cognitive dissonance in other areas in life (especially when it comes to not achieving goals ive set for myself). this really helped me to better understand people who dont want to go vegan. they probably deep down know that arguments like "i like the taste", "its impractical" etc dont hold up against the cruelty, but cant bear to confront themselves like that.
Or some people just understand nature isn’t nice, and we shouldn’t go against nature (not that we should go out of our way to be cruel, but in the end is stopping the consumption of meat isn’t even a drop in the bucket, it’s a particle in the universe).
@@mcarrowtime7095 A few years ago I decided that doing a sand-grain amount of good is worth doing. Because I read about the sand-heap theory, and I was having anxiety over the realisation that I can't absolve myself from racism, because I've been conditioned that way since I was very young. I thought, I might as well try my best, even if I can't ever reach the goal. Because why not though? I've read other theories, like 2% theory. According to it, it takes 2% of the population to create change. That's enough to make it so visible and popular that others will go along with it. Other things too. Like stopping to eat meat will free up a lot of land for rewilding and reduce ghg emissions greatly, that reduce climate change and related issues like food insecurity. So actually, by changing one area in our lives, because different areas of our lives are interconnected, many other areas change as well.
I'll give you this: you are very clever in masking your intentions. It took me over half the video to realise that the explanation of why veganism is the 'superior' ethical system at the beginning wasn't rhetorical and that this isn't a "The problem with ethical veganism" video but a "The problem with people not following my perfect ideology" video. Should have read the description first. Still, I appreciate the look into the mind of a vegan so I can understand what is happening in there when they compare meat-eaters to Nazis. It's still a horrifying take, but I now understand where it's coming from. Also the invocation of "cognitive dissonance" almost got me with the knee-jerk "of course I can" play. Accusing someone of not being able to do something has always been a good way to make them do it. Too bad that even those who fall for it won't stay for long. TL:DR Came for an explanation of the problem of ethical veganism, found a demonstration of the problem of ethical veganism.
I agree that the fact that animals can feel the harm caused to them, this means we need to considerate about what harm we cause and not treat animals worse than we would treat other humans... Unfortunately this "how we treat other humans" is a pretty low bar to clear... If you look at how sweatshop workers, rare-metal miners in third world countries or even amazon warehouse workers are treated... I mean... We definitely should aim to treat everyone well. But we are probably not yet in a position where treating animals well can be seriously considered and enforced. And there is only do much one can do by personal example and activism...
ahh yes, some of my issue with arguments like this is that they don't take into account who makes their clothes, the underpaid and unrecognized farmers who grow their crops, factory workers and the like. Unless you bought your clothes from a local seller who custom-makes everything, you don't really know who made those and you can only imply the conditions they were in. Same goes with food and pretty much everything that's mass-produced, so we all play with "lesser evils" for an advantage. We can't end all suffering because it'll always exist in some form.
For the most part I don’t talk about veganism with people I always just share some food I make, recipes, interesting facts about plants or tips/tricks on cooking. So far I’ve managed to at least get some people heading in the right direction. From small changes like actually getting people to start cooking for themselves all the way to someone telling me that they started using a lot more produce in their cooking I think it’s all a win win. What’s funny is that most people don’t even know that I’m vegan and are very surprised when they find out l
I started eating certain vegan snacks due to my friend bringing her snacks to places and offering us to try. It is just very tasty, it is only a plus for me that we can all eat it and it is vegan.
People are also surprised when I tell them I'm vegan. (probably because I don't fit the stereotype they have about vegans) But I WANT to talk about it, but people tend to close down very quickly and I know pushing it is not going to help. I'm trying to be a bit more forward with it now, though.
It’s cool to see some data backing up the point about leading by example and the perceived ease of a vegan diet. Anecdotally, it feels like I run into more people who would like to have that diet/lifestyle but can’t for some reason than folks who think it’s the wrong choice and actually need to be convinced about animal cruelty. This is the reverse for me even compared to a few years ago.
I personally agree with the last study you went through. The most important thing is how easy/convenient it is to be vegan. Some of the vegans I met didn't listen to what I had to say and how I struggled with it and just brought up judgemental arguments on environment/ethics. If they just gave me at least one quick, cheap and tasty vegan recepie that would bring me at least a little bit closer to being vegan. Thank you for pointing this out! A few years ago I tried vegan diet for about 3 months .At first it was manageable since my mother was very supportive and also into it. We both struggled to find what else we like to eat instead of meat but at least we both tried. Once I moved out to college I quickly gave it up. I didn't know how to cook vegan food and had other stuff on my mind. Also my roommates occasionally ate sandwiches with ham and our room was filled with the smell. Sandwiches were the breaking point :D Environment really matters for our daily habits.
For me, I tested out going vegan as a fun little health challenge. I lost about 20lbs (from an intentional calorie deficit), so I felt great and associated veganism with positive feelings. THEN I took a look at the ethical arguments and scope of cruelty and was convinced to never go back; it was all so needless. I totally agree that normalizing it is the best approach to convince people, even though now I find the ethical arguments impossible to deny. Like you said, brains just don’t work like that in the vast majority of cases.
That's so true! I became a vegan when my friend has shown me an instagram page that checks and collects vegan food in usual stores. I understood then, that there is A LOT of vegan options even in my country where veganism isn't popular
coming from a 10+ year vegetarian and 3-year vegan now, this video is so well put!! i think there so much more to dig in to here in terms of how white veganism is, capitalism and food insecurity, etc. but you’re so right about so much and i really appreciate the structure of this video! (also, hi from a fellow sarah Schulman reader!)
@@rkdeshdeepak4131 True, suffering has decreased worldwide because of industrialization, fueled by some aspects of globalism and capitalism. That doesn't make it a good system though. I mean, you could be in literal hell, introduce communism into hell, and you could make the same argument. At the end of the day, I think money also serves as a way to exploit, and we had no need of something so primitive in any society on Earth.
Vote with your dollar. Support vegan products. We see this shift particularly with PB milks that take up 50% of the milk space. Make veganism more accessible especially for the working class.
I’ve seen veganism approached from logical, environmental, moral, and argumentative perspectives. I think this new psychoanalytical perspective really encompasses how we arrive to such conclusions so that we may be more effective in our approach when talking about veganism. I’ve learned over my years being vegan that the best way to introduce and make people open and interested in veganism is sharing they enjoyment that veganism brings you (i.e. sharing food, experiences, etc.). The amount of times that I’ve heard the coworkers around me (yes even conservative ones) begin to share interests and even ask questions to gain further understanding of veganism because I baked cinnamon rolls or brought some vegan doughnuts that everyone enjoyed with some pizza. Inside their morality they understand killing and exploiting and animal is wrong and would never do it themselves, as soon as they see there might be a way out they will ask about it, and be more open to it, and willing to adapt it to their own life.
Did you just say conservatives are reasonable people? We’ll have to kick you out of the vegan club now for saying they’re anything other than self centered tyrants
This was a fantastic and compelling video essay! I really appreciated that it was concise and seemingly followed a well rehearsed, well written script or thorough outline. There's nothing inherently wrong with the old "vlog-style" video essays, they just aren't for me. and I really appreciated the lack of random sound effects and the background audio wasn't drowning you out, or even competing with the dialogue at all. "Extra special audio features for a jazzed up professional feel" render a lot of media unlistenable/unwatchable. *However*, there were some exceptionally jarring audio transitions that left me feeling kinda anxious anticipating the next unintentional "jump scare". This is the first time I've come across this channel, so I'm not sure if this has continued to be a thing in future videos or you're still making videos or if you're even making new videos at all. But those parts were so stressful and this video was so fantastic otherwise, that I just decided to point out this simultaneously small *and* large issue. RUclips is filled with no shortage of jarring audio. Children sure seem to enjoy videos of other kids randomly screaming at full, very high pitch volume. That's pure comedy gold to the 5-12 year old demographic. The reason I've described the much more tame and less obnoxious incidents in this video is solely because your speech volume and cadence were so nice and relaxing to listen to. Most other creators use a much more "aggressive" speech pattern. They speak fairly loudly with a fast pace and the cadence is often all chaotic due to random bursts of emphatic speech. (This annunciated style is simultaneously attention grabbing and attention holding in a way that many viewers enjoy. But, again, it's just not for me.) For example, the very sweet clip of the dogs greeting there owner may have been less jarring had I been watching the screen instead of just listening while doing other stuff. But it seemed to be quite a bit louder than the rest of the audio and, without context, the audio was a cacophony. The 5-12yo demographic probably would enjoy listening to all that loud, incessant joyful laughing over and over lol The clip was amazing to watch and it illustrated the point beautifully. But dialing down the volume to below the volume of your dialogue audio would have helped a lot. Additionally, I loved the piano background track. But the first few notes of your title section were also much louder than the dialogue and very jarring. This example is extra important, as you probably use that opening multiple times. The notes themselves were very impactful, so I think you can achieve the intended effect even without raising the volume.
I agree to some extent. But while people may be inclined to "Go vegan" because of how easy it is, that's not what will keep them vegan. Sure, it may be convenient to be Vegan in when buying food from a Tesco in Birmingham, but it won't be in central Turkiye. Convenience is only relevant when it is convenient. A moral absolute is relevant in times of inconvenience. This is why Veganism, while it can be introduced in a more digestible form, must in the end be based on an ethical obligation.
I just want to say, I really enjoyed the video and I think it's great. I hadn't heard of these different Psychological theories before, it's another string to our bow. Keep up the good work man.
I just wanted to say, that I love this comment section ❤️ Thanks for the video too. RUclips must have known, that I quit vegetarianism while staying abroad in Korea and since then I am in a deep moral conflict.
When I first went vegan, I invited my brother to eat vegan with me when I came home for Christmas. Similar to your story, he's the only one I've really convinced to go vegan. He's said he cannot overstate how important that month was to him making the decision to go vegan, and I didn't fully understand why that was until I heard your explanation. I still think there's value in arguing the moral points. I think there are still people who haven't made the connection that farmed animals should receive moral consideration like other animals do. I was one such person, but even after I was convinced, it wasn't until I pushed myself to commit to my new position (a year later) that I was truly vegan. This second hurdle of practicality has been a blind spot in my activism. I frequently bite off more than I can chew on projects and adventures that I've convinced myself must be done, so going vegan overnight was relatively simple for me once I got past my own excuses. I see now that this is the thing so many I've talked to are stuck on. They need to see that their life won't be upended by going vegan. No amount of showing them how much their choices upend the lives of others will make it easier for them. I'd love to hear more about ways I can show people this beyond just living my life. If you've got another video essay about this in you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Very interesting video, I laughed so hard when you were saying cognitive dissonance with about 3 cigs in your hand 😂😂 It comes back to embodiment and lifestyle shift, being okay with the narratives because of knowing your own truth. What created a lot of societal resistance towards veganism was it's mass adaptation/exploitation in 2018, yet truly it's a gradual shift in societies direction of just choosing to live more harmoniously with the planet - no matter how it may look on the individual level ❤
So I have a textbook example of this. I became vegan after a lot of deep philosophical digging and self-reflection. I then attempted to convey this to my wife by explaining how her ethics lead her to it as well. This, however, just came across as me calling her a bad person, to her. She was taking it as though I was saying she was bad, but I know she's not because I see the good in her other actions, just her actions towards consumption were not reflecting this good when it came to animals, which she loves greatly. This led to her fortifying her resolve and issues between us became a taboo subject. I gave up trying and hoped for the best. I began to just make good foods. Avoid certain places. Occasionally point out instances of animal cruelty we saw. Etc. She's working towards becoming vegan now because of this. She saw it, not because I convinced her to change or that her actions were bad, but because she saw me change and saw the world for what it was which inspired her to change too. I think you nailed this. Bravo. I wasn't sure what to expect going in. I enjoy having my views challenged because if I'm wrong, I'd rather know it. It's much easier to be wrong than right and finding how you are wrong is the fastest way to discovering true things. I wasn't expecting this to subtly undercut the anti-vegan sentiment. I think you accidentally, or if intentionally then even more praise ahould be sent, made a powerful tool for convincing people to consider veganism much more seriously.
Been meaning to go vegan. Currently living (mostly) vegetarian. Reason I'm currently not vegan: health problems that I'm unable to debug due to depression.
THISSSS!!! I've reduced so much more cruelty through proximity than I ever have through talking. My mum has cut out dairy since I went vegan and showed her dairy alternatives (she will have them when she goes out for meals but also sometimes picks vegan). My boyfriend drinks soy Milk because it's easier than buying two cartons (soy and dairy), When cooking the meals we eat are vegan because I am, and rarely will he bother to make a meat version for himself. I'm sure I've affected so many more people and I'm glad to be normalizing vegan food!
To go into more specifics on the point about Jonathan Haidt's system of moral values: There are 6 total, those being compassion, fairness, freedom, loyalty, authority and sanctity. Most people operate with all 6, but to varying degrees. Progressives tending to favour compassion and fairness the most, freedom somewhat, and the other three very little. Conservatives also value compassion and fairness, though to a lesser extent, but also value freedom a little more, and authority and sanctity much more. To be clear, when someone scores low on - for example, authority - it doesn't mean that they think authority is meaningless, or that they don't take it into consideration, it means that they don't think it has moral value, that is, intrinsic value. Conservatives tend to believe that sanctity and authority are moral issues, while progressives do not. This, in my opinion, explains why progressives on twitter often have arguments about the morality of necrophilia, since our lack of moral value for sanctity makes it much harder to make a moral denunciation of this supposedly victimless - albeit, disgusting - crime.
Good work scott, i went vegan 40 years ago after i read a leaflet that said "40 million turkeys a killed for a peaceful Christmas celebration" It was the realisation that the so called norm was not normal. This shifted my sleeping mindset, i became aware of what was actually normal, vegan life. I was jolted out, of the "so called normal " I was vegetarian for a week, then vegan. Its a valuable piont you make, Its like its best to say , i feel so normal not eating animals, so obvious , i will develope this approach , it really works,
I agree with this well-thought out video and the logic as far as what you're covering here. I've been vegan or mostly vegan for 7 or 8 years, but what I wonder about now is the actual morals of it. I would find it very hard to deliberately directly kill an animal, so therefore I don't support these industries that cause that suffering (plus OF COURSE and arguably more important all the inhumane treatment before death). But am I not just externalizing the harm I'm supposedly avoiding to other parts of our global system? It would be one thing if I ate mostly in-season produce and grains and legumes, tried to eat local where reasonable, etc., but with all these Tofurkey and Gardein and nut milks etc. etc. -- they are pretty resource-intensive if nothing else. Like, so many products have palm oil, and it's like, would it really be "ethical" of me to forgo butter from a pasture-raised cow produced in my state and opt to buy plant-based butter with palm oil that may have been grown on a plantation of deforested rainforest land, harming many vulnerable species? (And who even knows what labor practices are involved for the human workers -- in meat, butter, nuts, coffee, or anything, it's hard to have faith that "fair trade certified" and all those various labels are really enough.) I guess that's where the banality of evil comes in -- we can't avoid EVERY harm in a complex system like this. It's up to us to decide what sorts of harms are permissible to our morals and which aren't. But I also don't think it's absolutely true that veganism is most ethical. All of life survives by killing other life, that's just the nature of reality (unless you're a detritivore I guess? Ah, would that I could be.) And like you said, if you say "animals aren't included in our circle of empathy because they don't have x trait" you'll find some animals that DO have x trait and some humans that may not. You're going to have to draw lines somewhere, or else make it a case-by-case basis thing, but it will never work neatly, because from a logical perspective ethics are just... kind of arbitrary -- I think so anyway; I FEEL what is "right" but with all the facts and reflections and inherent violence of existence it's hard to parse it all together coherently and consistently. I sometimes question the validity of my black-and-white refusal to eat meat in favor of tofu or Beyond Meat, for instance. I have always lived in the American west or now in the Great Plains. Many parts of these areas are ecosystems (or used to be) where it is ecologically way more sensical to eat some meat. If we were to come into our natural cycles and live SUSTAINABLY (which for me is a very high ethical priority), we would not be irrigating so much cropland in an arid or semi-arid system -- we wouldn't even necessarily be eating completely plant-based by locally growing our own produce, though that could be part of it -- but we'd probably be eating large grazing animals like bison or deer, plus rabbits and things. It's like people who get angry at Inuit peoples and other indigenous groups in the far north for killing seals or whales. Like, aside from the cultural significance of this and the harm of trying to take it away, if you live north of the arctic circle, a lot of your local diet will be meat, or else shipped in. A code of ethics that works for one context will not work when extrapolated to a different context and people and geography. And I KNOW I could probably be a more ethical vegan, by my own standard, merely by eating less of these processed meat substitutes; I just haven't for the same reason many people still eat meat -- I like it and it's easy to put the potential far-off impacts out of mind. And as to whether killing animals is wrong -- it just kind of feels like dealer's choice. Humans DID evolve to eat meat, as well as other things. I know we have these mental faculties where we can reflect and take more responsibility for deliberately shaping our actions -- that's what being a moral agent is and it's part of being human. So maybe for some people that DOES mean choosing to consume less meat. But many cultures and people who are closer to hunting or raising their own food HAVE done and DO this reflection -- and upon being a human in a land of living things that eat other living things, they will kill their own meat not because they think violence is fun but because even though an animal being killed probably feels kind of abhorrent to you or me, THIS type of so-called "violence" is to some degree unavoidable in being alive -- if not to the cow or deer, then somewhere down the line.
Meat eating at its best -- eating sustainable quantities of wild-caught animals or humanely raised animals -- I think this is a really honorable way to live, but unfortunately or fortunately I don't feel capable of it personally. Like, as a vegan, even that idyllic model seems difficult to me. Even though I don't LOGICALLY have a problem with someone quickly and with minimal pain killing a deer that has lived in the wild and then eating it -- that all sounds pretty great and very sustainable -- as an INDIVIDUAL I know I would viscerally loathe doing that. No matter how kindly raised, I personally do not want to kill anything, and sometimes I am worried because this just feels like naïvité -- me thinking it's possible to be alive while doing no harm, when really I'm just using veganism to divert that harm into a more diffuse less tractable harm impacted on different organisms by people who aren't me. I question if I SHOULD be willing to learn how to kill animals, because this might be part of a deeper human experience. But it also FEELS so wrong -- is that my instinct/soul and I should listen to the urge to avoid violence, or does killing animals feel wrong because our current society is so separated from nature and how food is raised and I've never had to live that reality?
@@mollywillo You have got to separate the animal and human part in you. You have especially evolved parts of the brain to do that, you are able to think about ethics (you can think beyond the now) and empathy (maybe even feel it, live it) . The animal part acts like other animals, without a choice, here and now.... but that should be overruled by the human part which does have a choice. If you don't use that choice, to be ethical and show empathy you are not human. You are an animal and luckily for you, I am vegan, so your kind (everyone non-vegan) is safe from being mistaken for a pig or something. It's as simple as that.... 🌿💚
I'm not vegan, but I'm not a vegan hater, and oven participate in culinary practices considered vegan. Love this video because it exactly encircles what I've thought about it this whole time.
Appreciate the thoughtful video. I have experimented with many diets in my health journey, currently on a zero carb non-vegan diet. I have yet to hear a moral argument for veganism based in animal cruelty that doesn't boil down to some version of the basic prejudice that says 'organisms that are more human-like are more deserving of life and fair treatment than those organisms that are less human-like'. Anything that doesn't operate more or less like human biology (i.e. plants and fungus) is considered incapable of any complex experience that merits our respect, despite the expanding scientific knowledge of plant and fungus behavior and communities that every year flies in the face of such a prejudice more and more. Thus I remain completely unconvinced by the cruelty reduction moral argument and view it as essentially an extension of the basic human arrogance propagated and reinforced by the human-nature relationship theory of the monotheistic religious philosophies.
as much as i sort of cringe at the notion that this is "human arrogance", i find this to be exactly how i feel. i dont agree that suffering needs to look like human suffering to be, you know, suffering.
If it's anthropocentric to say that it's cruel to kill and maim animals, why are slaughterhouse workers traumatized and much likelier to use drugs and commit violent crimes ? If it were just a vegan abstraction to see it as violent to murder an animal, it would surely be as easy for a human to do it as it is for a human to pluck an apple from a tree.
Vegan for 3 years. Good video! My only nitpick is that I don't (primarily) view Veganism as harm reduction, but as an acknowledgment that animals should have their body autonomy respected and be left alone.
this is an amazing video! i don't think i've ever heard someone explain moral theory this clearly before, including my high school philosophy teacher. your channel is super underrated, and you definitely gained a new subscriber with this video.
I liked this video a lot! I know quite a few vegans who started eating purely plant-based because for health reasons. And once they were vegan in practice they became ethical vegans. People don't think about what they eat. What they eat decides what they think.
For me, it’s not so much that the ethical argument is unconvincing but that no vegan has convinced me that veganism is the only way. I agree that we have to change the way we look at food production but every individual should try to find a way to change based on their situation when it comes to things like their health, location, financial status and, of course, conscience.
@@JaisBane the only way to salvation of course, the way any other religion says. Know the things you believe, on morality thou' veganism is halfway absurd, because whether you drink milk or not the cow wouldn't care it would love it a lot more to feed you thinking you are it's caff, so it would be just as good to be vegetarian, if you want to have less cows in the world that is, because allot less people will feed their cows if they are only for watching, the way horses population plummeted after the wide adoption of the car. Why keep an animal if you have no benefit out of it, even emotional (like with cats and dogs) would you adopt a pet tick or mosquito, will we stop feeding wolf's at the zoo? Stay carnivore save a cow from starvation!(if it's not for moral reasons, i would be a lot more inclined to be vegetarian because it was invented because climate change not animal cruelty, and if you don't test perfumes on animals you'll have to test them on people before or after the client put's it on their body, the only rational reason i have heard till now is feeding animals needs more farmland for livestock for feed than if you feed people that same animal feed, therefore less methane in the atmosphere per person by going vegan and killing all farting cows in the process, yeah really moral implications you have there ).
@@JaisBane The only way to approach an ethical system for food consumption/production. Veganism is certainly a good moral position, but it could be argued that eating meat from an animal that was already dying (or terminally ill), or ethically sourced eggs, milk or honey (outside of factory farming), can still be ethical as it does not add to animal suffering or climate change. Cultured meat, once the growing fluid has been substituted by a synthesized version (for now it relies on calves blood, which defeats the purpose), could also be a possible future example of ethical meat consumption. OP could also mean the question of how possible veganism is for some people (nut/legume allergies, living in climates where plant-based protein is hard to come by, etc.) and what their ethical alternatives could be, but as most vegans define veganism as phasing out animal consumption 'as much as possible' I don't really consider this would be a strong criticism.
the american academy of nutrition and dietetics states that every human being can be healthy on a vegan diet. if you do some basic research and you really seek decency you’re in the right place
@@raquelle.de.oliveirathe statement reads: “appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases”. This assumes the person is capable of planning or receiving assistance in planning, purchasing for, preparing and following an ‘appropriately planned’ vegetarian/vegan diet. It doesn’t take account of individuals who may have significant dietary restrictions, or are already clinically underweight. It is a general statement of approval that such diets can be healthy, not an authoritative statement of feasibility or applicability to every medical or practical circumstance
Speaking of cognitive dissonance, one thing I've noticed very few vegans acknowledge is that the overwhelming majority of their "vegan" products -- like clothing, footware, etc. -- are made from petrochemical plastics, which means they're directly supporting the single worst industry causing climate change, pollution, and environmental degradation. They also rarely acknowledge that most of the food they eat comes from the same destructive factory farm systems that produce meat. It's also not possible without the aid of modern technology; specifically GMOs, which most vegans tend to oppose as well. And the moment one points this out to them, they drag out the same sorts of denials, evasions, fallacies, and various rationalizations that meat-eaters use. In my experience, their understanding of what they are doing and why is very shallow, and not well grounded in actual science. Veganism is a privileged choice, one only available to those who have access to the material resources and technology made available by considerable social wealth, as well as sufficient leisure time and ability to prepare meals, which itself is only possible by the exploitation of the Global South. No other culture in the history of the world has been vegan, for what should be obvious reasons. Disclaimer: I personally spent 20 years (almost to the day) as a vegetarian (ovo-lacto) before going back to eating meat.
"one only available to those who have access to the material resources and technology made available by considerable social wealth, as well as sufficient leisure time and ability to prepare meals" Today I learned people need time and money to... buy pasta ? You do realize that the act of excluding the most expensive products from your diet makes it cheaper, not more expensive, right ? "No other culture in the history of the world has been vegan" Off the top of my head : Cathars, Jains, Buddhists, Manicheans ?
@@josephancion2190 >"Today I learned people need time and money to... buy pasta?" How much time is required to prepare and cook "pasta", including the sauce, from scratch without resorting to pre-packaged foods? What is the nutritional content of "pasta", and how does that compare to the nutrition requirements of the average human body? How much of the ingredients of said "pasta" were grown in sustainable farms, vs. environmentally-destructive factory farms? I'm sure you have all those facts at your fingertips and can readily provide them. 🙄 Just a little hint, in case you don't know, it can easily take an hour or more to prepare a pasta and sauce from scratch, even assuming dried pasta. Further, pasta cannot provide anywhere near all of the nutritional requirements for the average human, not even close. Not to mention that nearly all of the ingredients available to an average human comes from environmentally-destructive factory farms; while obtaining sustainably grown ingredients is difficult and very expensive by comparison. >"Off the top of my head : Cathars, Jains, Buddhists, Manicheans ?" First, not a single one of those is a _culture_ , they're all *religions* (and you forgot Sikhism in that list, BTW). Second, none of the religions you mentioned were typically vegan, they were *vegetarian* , and not always that. The Jain and Sikh diets depend *heavily* on dairy products; specifically ghee (clarified butter), paneer (a type of fresh farmer's cheese), and yoghurt. By contrast, the Buddha ate meat his entire life, all the way up until his death; and never prohibited his followers from eating meat, only from killing animals or directly causing animals to be killed (they could meat offered to them as long as they did not ask for it specifically). Those who chose not to eat meat still depended strongly on dairy, like the Jains and Sikhs (and, technically, Sikhs can eat meat, and some do, as it's not strictly prohibited). But that's the sort of ignorant white western colonialist stereotype of Jains and Buddhists, which is so typical of privileged white western vegans, that I expected someone to bring up eventually. I'm only surprised no one mentioned them sooner. As for the Cathars and Manicheans, neither of them were vegan either. The Cathars did not eat meat, eggs, or dairy; but did regularly eat *fish* as a staple of their diet. The Manicheans considered consuming _any_ life, including plant life, as equally sinful. There is no clear documented evidence of the daily diet of the average practitioner, but some surviving records do indicate it was similar to the Jewish dietary laws and included meat, or at least dairy. Their priestly class was restricted to a vegetarian diet; but one could only achieve this class much later in life, and it's not clear from surviving documentation whether this diet was routine or ceremonial. In the few well-documented instances we have of significant groups of people restricting themselves to vegan diets, those groups are also documented to suffer from the expected nutritional-deficiency disorders, and few survived for more than a generation or two. Veganism is a diet of privilege, period, and few vegans truly understand the nature or impact of their dietary choices; or put in the effort to understand how to effectively minimize their impact on the world.
@@EphemeralTao Fair points about the culture, you beat me on cultural knowledge. However, I will nitpick about the pasta story. Takes five minutes to make if we consider that, indeed, I have simply bought the dried pasta ready and put them in water. Then I eat them with olive oil and garlic. The garlic is french-grown (am french), same for the pasta wheat. The olive oil is cheap and certainly comes from intensive farming. Sometimes I eat pasta without anything though, takes less time. I don't see how making pasta indicates that I have a lot of leisure time. Don't plenty of non-vegans make pasta ? Is everyone who eats dried pasta that they buy at the store, inherently privileged ? (This could be a fair point, as not everyone has access to dried pasta). But, aside from all that, I am not sure that I have understood the core of what you are arguing. You say having time to cook indicates privilege, but you also seem to consider that it is bad to buy pre-packaged foods. What do you think is worse / indicates more privilege ? Making everything "from scratch" (though if I made pasta from scratch, I would still be using pre-packaged flour), or buying things that are pre-packaged ? I can see arguments for both, but then again, I completely fail to see how this is something that separates omnivorism from veganism.
@@josephancion2190 ". Takes five minutes to make if we consider that, indeed, I have simply bought the dried pasta ready and put them in water." Not true, except for the finest angel-hair pasta. "Then I eat them with olive oil and garlic. " Which has exactly what nutritional content? You're evading the point. If this was your sole or primary food source, you'd rapidly begin to suffer from deficiency disorders. "Is everyone who eats dried pasta that they buy at the store, inherently privileged ? (This could be a fair point, as not everyone has access to dried pasta)." Yes, the ability to buy pre-made, pre-packaged foods is very much a privilege much of the world does not have. Further, not everyone has reasonable access to markets to buy ingredients, at least not in the US. Go search for "food deserts". "I am not sure that I have understood the core of what you are arguing. " That's very clear. "You say having time to cook indicates privilege, but you also seem to consider that it is bad to buy pre-packaged foods." No, that is what ethical veganism says. More on that below. And I didn't just say "time", I also said "resources", eg. the comment on food deserts above. But time is a significant factor, especially for people who have to work multiple jobs to survive and support their families (especially as a single parent). Add to that dealing with disabilities, which further restricts available resources. " I completely fail to see how this is something that separates omnivorism from veganism." Clearly, since that's not even what this is about. This is about the stance of *ethical* veganism, the title and substance of the video you're commenting on (as opposed to health-based veganism, which is a different animal entirely). The entirely point of *ethical* veganism is that it's inherently wrong to use animal products, because of the cruelty and impact on the environment. But what *ethical* vegans often simply do not pay attention to, as noted in my first post that you replied to, is that their lifestyle often includes choices that have a similarly negative impact on the environment. The most commonly and cheaply available pre-processed foods 1) have poor nutrition, 2) typically contain animal products, and/or 3) have a large environmental impact due to the method of production and packaging. The better the quality of the food, and the lower the environmental impact it has, the more expensive and difficult to obtain it will be, and the more effort and resources required to prepare it. Being able to pursue an ethical vegan diet that does not result in similarly large environmental impact when compared to eating meat requires substantial resources and effort; and is therefore a choice only available to those sufficiently privileged and wealthy. And that's not even getting into the impact that the various vegan food fad have had on the rest of the world, particularly the Global South. But most "ethical" vegans simply do not make that much effort, and instead support products and lifestyles which have huge impacts on the environment. As originally noted, this isn't entirely, or even primarily about food. It's also about their refusal to use any animal products; while the substitutes they do utilize being every bit as environmentally destructive, if not moreso -- eg. petrochemical-derived products. And then there is the problem of bioavailability of nutrients in a vegan diet compared to an omnivorous one. Many nutrients are extremely difficult or outright impossible to obtain from vegan sources without the aid of modern GMO technology, which "ethical" vegans also largely oppose. But that does not stop ethical vegans from claiming some moral high ground, fanatically preaching at and demonizing anyone else who does not adopt their lifestyle and belief system. Nor does it stop vegan leftists from demonizing non-vegan leftists as somehow morally inferior or "dupes" of some imaginary cult mindset (eg. "carnism"). Further, much of their belief system is not based in reliable science, but rather in junk science and conspiracy theories.
@@EphemeralTao I think I have misunderstood what is defined as "ethical veganism". Most of the time, when I have seen this stance used, it means excluding products of animal exploitation exclusively because they are products of animal exploitation, and not for other reasons, which are not considered "ethical" by others (meaning, generally, the environment and health). The reason I misunderstood your precedent response is because of the difference in definition. Most vegans will say there is non-ethical veganism, which is for health and the environment, and ethical veganism, which is against cruelty. While you consider that veganism can be health veganism, or ethical veganism, which also includes the environment in your definition. I'm not trying to make claims on who's wrong and who's right in their definition, but I do feel like the author of the video had the same definition in mind (eg, he doesn't talk about the environemnt in this video). Even though I've met a fair share of vegans, I don't remember hearing people make a case for "ethical veganism" following a definition that includes the environment, and general harm to humans. If that is what ethical veganism is, that is not what I do at all - I suppose the only possible commitment to ethical veganism would be, say, growing your own food and trading it with people you know (which, again, is not what I think the author of the video was talking about, which is why I didn't understand that this was what you considered ethical veganism). When I answered to your initial comment, I wasn't making a case against your first two paragraphs. I agreed with them, as I absolutely don't think that veganism means that those who engage in it are ceasing to contribute to pollution, GMO, or intensive agriculture. I was simply confused about the claim that veganism takes time (again, I now understand the misunderstanding : eating in a way that doesn't contribute to any environmental destruction is indeed inaccessible, and would take time - but adhering to the basics of the definition of vegans doesn't mean you need to cook anything special). For the cooking time, fair : I meant from insertion of the pasta to removal, and excluded the time it takes to heat the water. I have basic electric hot plates so water takes a good fifteen to twenty minutes to boil. I like my pasta kind of crunchy though, so it's not much more than five minutes for me (maybe seven or eight, to be precise ?) (I have bought angel-hair pasta recently, because it's one of the cheapest types, but mostly ate them raw. Very pleasant texture. They're a bit icky when cooked). As for "is this my main nutriment source", I will say that while I do eat some other things, yes, I do genuinely eat like shit. I've eaten full bags of raw pasta and occasionnally eat nothing but oats. I do eat some fruits and vegetables (carrots, cucumbers, apples, the mainstream ones), and some legumes, like split peas, but the staples of my diet are really shit, and I'm not going to start making any big health claims. But I don't need to, since I'm not a doctor or an influencer. Again, I don't disagree on the fact that a vegan's consumption is environmentally harmful. Not sure excluding animal products makes a huge difference in, say, the production of petrochemical-derived products, since most omnivores typically don't own tons of products made from animal's bodies and secretions - so "cutting them out" shouldn't lead to an increase or decrease in consumption of this. However, in my comprehension of what "ethical veganism" is (opposing the consumption of things for which animals were bred and tortured) (which, again, I understand is not your definition), food consists of 1) pre-packaged products and 3) have large environemntal impacts are both perfectly fine within this form of ethical veganism, which is why I considered that it didn't demand an immense amount of resources and "leisure time". But as I have said in this message, I understand that your comprehension of ethical veganism isn't the same, and indeed, with your definition of ethical veganism, commitment would mean an exceptional amount of time and resources which even msot privileged people don't have. But I've never met someone who claimed to be such a vegan.
I’m vegetarian, and I had wanted to for a long time, in the back of my mind, but it took living in a place which served primarily vegetarian food for me to finally realize it was possible and accessible. And the only people I ever convinced to (mostly) join me were my family members, not because I told them to join me, but because I simply introduced so many vegetarian meals and recipes that they eat the same as I do 95% of the time. Hopefully I’ll be able to become more vegan in the future.
I actually think it's a good thing that we try to bring our morals in line with our actions, since after all morals are there to be brought in practice, not something to just discuss about in theory. I think it's a good thing if people apply the basically scientific approach to veganism, to try to disprove it, since vegans might be biased towards veganism. After all, veganism is not a purpose of its own, we live vegan in order to act in line with morality. In order to that, we need to keep being open to the idea that our morality might be wrong. I think people are way more likely to convert to a behavior actually proven to them to be moral, than to the application of their mere conviction.
First I watch a video from the Liberal Cooks on the same topic and now this pops up. The algorithm is telling me something. Anyroads, I got into trying alternatives at a beach party where someone brought vegan hotdogs and I tried it, it was better than I expected and had a texture I enjoyed. Since then, I have been replacing meat products with alteratives expressly sold as an certain meat alternative, or trying the same preparation but using tofu instead. I don't fool myself into thinking these things are just the same as eating the meat versions and when I try to get people to try the stuff I make, I don't say "it's just like meat" because it's not, I think it's what convinces people the alternatives are being sold by "werido vegan cultists." Because I simply enjoy the alternatives to meat, the thing that has prevented me from going all in on veganism is cheese and other dairy products. The alternatives are harder to use in place, don't taste in a way I like, and the texture isn't the same. I do try to buy my dairy products locally from people who at least say they aren't being completely awful to their animals. I figure if the cow hasn't been tortured like in corporate dairy farms, it's okay, or so I tell myself.
The main problem is that non-humans are simply not important to people enough to care. There is a trade off. An person loses flavor, and fullness from eating meat if they go vegan. A given person may not care enough to take the trade for becoming vegan. This is something that I would say is almost impossible to change in a person. Probably because it's innate to their brain configuration. There is another problem that it just doesn't feel good to be vegan for some people. I was one of those people. I tried going vegan. I felt tired, had itchy/dry skin, rashes, and had brain fog. Yes, I ate meat alternatives, and variety. And it was expensive, way too expensive for my budget. Personally the trade off was much greater than flavor, and fullness. Also I got really bad gas. Like serious gas.
What do you mean by trade off exactly? Are you saying that being vegan is worth the pain and that you feel fuller when you were strictly vegan at the time?
@@partyanimal9382I said, "A person loses flavor, and fullness from eating meat". In hindsight being vegan was only enjoyable at first, and then there was a decline in my enjoyment. Particularly the rising cost. Before I tried being vegan I had once ate 5 medium pizzas all to myself. No I didn't get fat. I have an unnaturally high metabolism. But for me it made veganism very expensive.
I started the video and jumped to the end...which was good. I think this video could be edited to under 10 minutes, attract more views and still offer the best of the content. The title is brilliant! Nice tone and word choice. Consider how to improve the viewers perception of your eye contact. I wanted more time on the graph maybe edit it and sort the data for easier viewing? Best of luck with your Channel!
this was one of the best critical videos i have ever seen! i am a leftist and progressive and try to engage in activism, and the topic you talk about has been one of the major issues i've been dealing with, that is, the way the left defends or promotes its ideals/points of views (e.g: veganism, gender identities, racial politics...). They keep saying the same things over and over again without accepting that cognitive dissonance blocks people's logics and morals to be affected by our valid, factual, scientific arguments. And I think the left is being as pig-headed as conservatives, and are not willing to change the way they argument, and this is stopping the possibility of change! anyways, english is not my first langage so my comment might sound somewhat confusing.
Great video, you make a persuasive case for focusing on accessibility and convenience. While I think you're right, this must be part of the solution, "convenience" in the merely capitalistic sense of providing more and cheaper vegan consumer goods will do (indeed, has done) little to nothing to reduce the animal consumption or its environmental impacts. That is because, as @Mexie articulates so well in her videos, the two industries can and do easily grow in tandem under capitalism.
Very thought-provoking and philosophical video. I watched this video because I'm learning Germanic New Medicine which was founded by Dr. R. G. Hamer who was a vegan. Animal rights was a very important issue to him- so much so that he was very close to being anti-semitic (He thought Jewish rituals for animal slaughtering are evil). But he wasn't racist against the Jewish race at all- he was just against the religious practices he thought were evil and the radical Zionists (he was a bit of a conspiracy theorist in that regard). Some of his closest friends and wife carry on his beliefs. There was a scientist Dr. Stefan Lanka who agreed with Hamer's scientific findings but criticized him for mixing his personal beliefs with science. Hamer's friends defend him by saying that Germanic New Medicine is more that just science (sounds to me like they almost think of it as a religion that worships nature, believes in Darwinian macro evolution, and naturally promotes Veganism). I, myself, am a conservative Catholic who, despite all of this, happen to think Hamer's scientific discoveries are legit but I can't accept Hamer's Veganism and his negative attitude towards monotheism. So I wanted to research this topic to get a better perspective on it and I think this video was helpful in that regard. Thanks.
I just firmly believe that there is no such thing as ethical consumption in today's day and age. Somewhere down the line, there is always someone or something being exploited for our gain or people who are going to be personally negatively impacted by us buying into or opting out of something. Not to mention that it isn't the consumer's job to force change because we can't --- there will always be another customer. The ones who *can* change things, and the only ones who can truly have everyone take steps toward ethical consumption, are government officials; but they won't do that because those unethical systems are cheaper or make them money in some way. It's the same for veganism as it is for anti-fast fashion, or climate change activists, or greenliving. All of these causes are good, they try to do something that helps the environment or animals, but they alone will not stop the machine. Do it if you can afford it, and it genuinely makes your life better or makes you happy. Just know that none of it is enough to topple that system, and you aren't better than people who cannot or do not prescribe to your way of life. And that goes for anyone.
@Dellon Collins a singular person being vegan is not the protest you think it is. It takes a LOT of people, being loud and relentless not to OTHER PEOPLE but to the government for things to change. And that takes years for even the smallest change. So yeah, do it for you, not because you think not eating animals for however many years will suddenly topple big farm. There will always be another customer. The problem with these movements is that they focus on policing the activity of the everyday consumer, when they need to be focused on fighting the government for bigger picture issues that will change everything those things affect. That's my point.
In germany vegans are a tiny tiny majority yet meat consumtion is declining while it had been on the rise for ages before. A big meat company makes more profits with meat alternatives than with meat. The consumer has quite a big influence!
@@sweetie_babie The everyday consumer is responsible for the slaughter of over 200,000 animals in their lifetime, and will pay thousands upon thousands for it. It's just not the same as, say, being against the existence of one specific cobalt mine which could still exist in the same way even if a million people boycott it. Meat production is quite demand-sensitive, and the extent to which people fund this demand is such that even one customer pulling off could have important effects. Moreover, even with uncertainty, why should we play the dice with millions of animal's lives (and their testicles) ? Shouldn't we err on the side of caution and simply never fund an industry that tortures them ? I also boycott less significant things like coffe or drugs where abstaining from it is much less likely to have an impact, simply because it's not right to do something you wouldn't do in a fair world, if you can easily abstain from it and live healthily within society.
I’m someone who have been agreed with the veganism ethics for years to the extent that I be surprised that I’m still eating meat till this day which mainly because I know it’s hard I’m still living with the family we don’t have that much alternatives in my country financial situation u can’t eat just vegetables and all this stuff make me just delay being vegan again and again and try to convince my self that it is what it is but maybe in the near future I’ll take the step and do what I believe in.
I used to be vegan a long time ago coming from a buddhist family, i do agree on the lack of convenience on it. When i joined the military 15 years ago there was absolutely no vegan options and at first i would just avoid eating any kind of diary and animal products at the mess hall. 2 weeks in i collapsed during training and the sarge came up and said he respected me for my lifestyle but this military doesn't care for it, if i wanted to make it out i'm gonna have to eat what little i get and when i get posted i can have more flexibility. I didn't get that flexibility and even outside base being vegan was becoming very difficult. Military pay isn't much, they expect you to eat what has been catered and to stay at base, they certainly didn't pay me enough in mind to eat well vegan wise. I could technically stretch my allowance to remain vegan but it would not have been healthy. So after about 2 years i eventually stopped as i was getting pretty sick. And i haven't been vegan for 13 years. I did think on and off on how to go back to it although not so much anymore but if things do change i do miss the energy i had as a vegan its not quite the same. I think a lot of things have also changed being a soldier for this long, if i ever go back its for the health, the ethics don't matter to me anymore i can't feel it neither do i care for it. I think military desensitizes you, i don't think too deeply or too much about morals or for anything much more except going home when i'm done.
Oddly enough I'm feeling similarities between this and using Linux. (I guess us Linux people are called computer vegans for a reason.) Ever since the start of the free software movement there's been ethical, moral, and logical arguments people lean on to suggest open source software - more eyes on the code means better performance/security, having more control over use of your data, et cetera et cetera - yet in the 40-some years that the free software movement has been around there hasn't been any incentive for average people to use Linux on their computer. However, with the rise of Valve's Steam Deck and Proton compatibility layer, use of Linux OSes on desktops has exploded, including me being able to convert my boyfriend over to it as well. I'm sure that only made sense to like six people, but essentially what I'm saying is: yeah convenience takes priority over morals in more than just lifestyle choices such as veganism. You can have a whole laundry list of reasons why doing something is *better* than the way people do currently, but no one will actually opt to change if it makes things more difficult. As a wise man in a children's TV show intro once said, inertia is a property of matter.
Like many other people have already said in the comment section, I also clicked on this video worried that it was going to be some anti-vegan arguments I've already heard 50 times, but was pleasantly surprised by the handling of the subject matter. I know personally shortly after I went vegan I felt I needed to discuss the ethics of veganism with people because it felt like such a big revelation and cruel injustice, but a lot of the time it would lead to me being frustrated whenever people either dug their heels in or just went "Well, you may be right, but I don't care enough to make the change". At this point I've come to a place where I try to generally only bring up animal rights talking points when it is relevant to the discussion (e.g. my friend and I were talking about the issue with consequentialism and whether something unethical becomes ethical if the consequences are erased and I just made the connection to how this is also relevant in a lot of discussion on whether cruelty to animals can be justified if they are "killed painlessly"), or if someone asks me directly about veganism, in which case I am glad to engage in a good faith discussion. I think the normalisation is also especially important in groups where veganism isn't very common. I caused my mother to almost exclusively cook plant-based when I went vegan, and even though I've moved out now, she still continues to do so, as she realised that the overreliance on animal products is entirely unnecessary. Even better, this also causes my parents' friends to try out vegan food as well, for example my mother recently organised an entirely vegan 3-course evening dinner with some of their friends after having gone to a fancy restaurant where almost every single meal contained meat and she wanted to show them that good dining doesn't need to have that. Sorry for the long comment, but I just wanted to share and remind people that one of the best impacts that can occur from going vegan are the fact that it can have ripple effects throughout the people in your life.
As other commenters said, I think we should have a multitude of arguments and activism types going on at the same time, because all people are different. For example, leading by example is powerful, but there are people for who being vegan is materially possible, but not easy nor convenient (deeply set eating habits, picky eaters, neurodivergence, eating disorders). In this case, an ethical conviction might go further than just vegan friends.
I fully agree with your normalization thesis. As anecdotal evidence: I'm an American living in the UK. I eat almost entirely plant-based and find it really easy to do so. Supermarkets and restaurants - even mainstream and fast food places - are full of vegan options and I'm surrounded by vegans/people actively reducing their meat consumption. So you could say veganism is well on its way to being normalized, at least in certain circles, and that is creating a positive feedback loop; it's easier to get on board with veganism so more and more people are doing so. On the other hand, I'm currently visiting my hometown in the US for the first time in two years. I've really struggled to find vegan options here and even my very left-leaning friends and acquaintances aren't vegan - they're at most vegetarian. This isn't an entirely fair comparison of the two countries as I live in a city in the UK and am from a rural part of the US, but regardless, the point stands: the closer veganism is to being the default, the more people will go vegan. Anyway, great vid overall! Just when I was thinking about Arendt's banality of evil you brought it up 😄 And I find the idea of disgust as it relates to viewpoints really interesting - I assume you've seen how conservatives have a lower disgust tolerance on average? I'm glad to have discovered your channel at the beginning of what I hope/expect will be a successful arc. Keep up the good work!
Something that I would love to see addressed by vegans is the argument that eating, like other bodily functions, is actually morally neutral. It's very common in western cultures (likely because of how our religions influenced our cultures) to moralize things that should be all-in-all amoral. Like sex for example or even just nudity being immoral and criminal. I definitely understand the cruelty argument, and the entire factory farming industry is totally and utterly fucked for a variety of reasons, but I just don't see how people in the Arctic north eating seal blubber is comparable to that? The former is an industrial colonial project that is profit driven and has no concern for cruelty towards the animals (both non-human and human) that are involved in it, and the other is a harmonious symbiotic relationship with the local ecosystem. I genuinely wonder if in a scenario where we actually pursue degrowth what food production would look like, but I don't really see a future that is 100% vegan-- and I don't think that should be seen as a moral failing. Kinda bothers me that human animals are seen as separate and above other animals and that our participation in ecological food chains is seen as a matter of morality and cruelty even though we have quite literally evolved to be omnivores. We don't look at chimps or bonobos and scorn them for eating meat when they do. In the end I definitely agree that the best way to change the way we think of all leftist principles is through normalization. The idea of critiquing the current system by showing what could be is something that has been on my mind for months.
I haven't gotten any one to go fully vegan yet. But with the two roommates that I have had since going vegan, I have watched both of them become more and more plant based in their choices, embracing more and more alternative meats, fewer eggs, etc. It's been two years since I've had to see real milk or butter in my shared fridge. These are all progressive people who care about justice and then enviroment but just being an example, who talks about the world from the point of my convictions, banking that as a choice I made for myself, I've seen more change than I ever had by being preachy.
Love this my man! Hope to see more! I've always said that as soon as meat alternatives costs less than meat people will jump ship to veganism. We are all just struggling to survive and people think we are taking away the one thing they think they have.... Food.
great video! Congrats :) I'm not 100% vegan but the thing that surprised me the most in cooking vegan food is how easy the dishes are to clean, no greasy baking sheets and pans, I think that's a super convincing argument (that I in fact have been using). Though for me veganism a lot more about the environmental impact of it
Ive been on and off vegan for like 5 years. The thing that has made the MOST difference for me was getting foodstamps. Finding ways to help people eat vegan is so important. Eating is not a trivial part of life
See, this is closer to what I think the vegan movement needs. Live by example, rather than screaming "murder" to everyone, and let idea to go vegan, reduce, or stay be with the individual. You can certainly argue for better conditions, etc in the factory farming industry, but thats the line. I wouldnt change, cause while he brought up up moral or healthy as positives for most people, and east as the negative, TASTE is a 0 on my scale for vegan food, and not acknowledging that is going to be a significant issue with a lot of us meat eaters is why things like Tash exist....(I know what i wrote there). On the whole, I really appreciate what he said. He gave his BF (grats on time) the freedom to be who he was, and if his BF moved to a more plant based diet, good for him. I am sure that helps the relationship that he makes the effort, even if it ISNT for the ethical reasons (kinda respect both of them more for that). The only real issue I have is that he does seem to assume a baseline/objective moral standard and/or that the moral standard of veganism is inherently correct. I recognize that many may identify it that way, even meat eaters. I however do not. I dont see any of it as a moral question, and certainly not an absolute one. HOW the farms work is certainly an ethical question but WHY they exist and the PURPOSE of them is not up to moral debate, they are making FOOD, just like if I chop a tree down to make a house. Or at least in my view that is the situation...but like cutting trees, I AM open to discussng the BEST way to do it that protects the environment (and in this case reduces pain of the animals) because I recognize those concerns matter to others even if the animals dont matter to me personally.
Interesting video. As someone who has cut down on meat consumption in the last few years, mainly for environmental reasons, I do try vegan options when I have the opportunity. Unfortunately so many of them taste (to me at least) noticeably worse than the original. At the end of the day I have to admit that I just don't care as much about farm animals, as I do about my dinner. 🤷 Definitely going to try lab grown meat though, when it becomes commercially available.
Honestly, choosing local options of animal products is probably more environmentally ethical then going vegan.... There is a LOT of importation necessary in the vast majority of countries to sustain a vegan diet. What really needs to be stopped is the industrial, global way we produce food. Heavily transformed vegan food isn't better then heavily transformed non-vegan food.
@@miss1of2 Absolutely the fuck not. Local flesh is often even more wasteful since the animals live longer lives, or have feed transported around the world. As for a plant-based diet, not only is transport nearly insignificant in the total impact on the environment, since you can get so much produce to fit on a ship (eg, you would need a kilo of banans to go around the world ten times to match the environmental impact of a portion of beef), but moreover, you simply don't need to buy things that grow far away ? For example, aside from peanuts, I genuinely don't think there's anything that I eat on the regular that doesn't come from my country or a neighbouring country, since I eat mostly grains, beans and greens that are mostly grown in Europe.
I enjoyed the video, it was interesting thinking more about the behavioral and psychological mechanisms that exist with respect to veganism , especially in a context other than veganism itself (war atrocities). Entertaining too with the book mentions and wasn't boring at all. You know, because sometimes you really wonder how tf people go about their days with their seemingly backwards logic.
Haha I turned my boyfriend vegan in the same way! Started with a Veganuary challenge and he’s been vegan now for 4 years 😂 he said it was because I opened his eyes to how easy and delicious it could be. I’ve actually had that effect on friends too! Never convinced someone to be vegan by talking the morality of it
i’ve been vegan for five years and being gen z and having intensely studied geopolitics last year, i can’t help but think that my decision is selfish and non significant in the great scale of things. you know, i guess growing up connected to the internet has made me quite nihilistic and skeptical towards the probability of real change and less violent systems in the late capitalism era we live. i feel like although i am a much better person now than i used to be before (less judgmental and more mature and understanding) i’ve been quite disconnected from my values. it’s hard to know that despite my best efforts, the life i live requires someone’s exploitation (phones made by metals mined by underpaid sometimes underage workers, clothes that may come from sweatshops, pesticides that compromise the health of ppl in rural areas). even tho i try to not consume compulsively, there is no perfect moral life. bad things happen and bad systems hurt ppl and animals and at some point u got to pick a poison. there is no way of tackling it all, especially if u do not have the resources. and this is the reason why i think some ppl might not have the conditions to stop eating meat etc i admit that me going vegan was a much easier process bc of the privilege of having resources to buy non vegan dishes alternatives (snacks, birthday cakes etc), the fact that live in a big city with a big variety of cuisines and shops to buy ingredients from, and mostly bc of my grandparents cooking for the whole family and adapting dishes for me. as a response to the pessimistic views i’ve been presented my whole life (unstable home, depression, knowing abt bad things in the world) i guess i adopted existentialism, so even though i know i do not have control over most things, i can try to make my choices according to what’s important to me, personally. and this is the reason why i think my choice to be vegan is a bit selfish, bc i do it only because i like animals. i do not try to convert anyone and i do not believe in the possibility of a world with much less exploitation. i don’t think slaughterhouses will cease to exist or that these industries will fall. if someone asks me abt veganism i try to be as nonchalant and simple as possible. the way the guy described, trying to normalize it. to end on a good note, i’ve noticed these past years restaurants have been including vegan dishes in the menu and this makes it much easier for me to have a social life and go out with friends. yesterday i went out with them and one of them brought food for us from her job and she remembered to get me a ume oniguiri instead of a salmon one. i was really happy
So, you might bring this up later in the video (I'm still watching -- I just have something to mention, in case it doesn't come up, I'll delete my comment if it does). I actually think it is technically fine to eat meat, but we are largely deceived into eating way too much of it, for the profits of agriculture/factory farming/meat industries. Add to that western culture and its obsession with hierarchies between humans and nonhuman animals, and all the natural world, tbh... (and also, obvs, humans of any marginalized group). It will take a paradigm shift on several different, interconnected levels to change this, and to normalize anything, including veganism, if that's where we want to go with this (as you mentioned wrt the normalization of veganism). But I think there will still end up eventually being an imperative for occasional nonhuman animal hunting for food at a certain point. A friend of mine is Cree. His community hunts one moose as a group. That one moose, whose eyes the hunter must look into as they ask permission and carefully choose the life they are going to take -- feeds the entire community for months to a year (moose are sometimes literally bigger than an SUV; I'm Canadian btw lol). And humans don't need to eat meat with every meal, the way we've been convinced we do, so that moose really is going to last a while. So there are ethical ways to hunt and eat nonhuman animals at times, imo. It's just horrifyingly unethical how it currently plays out in mainstream western culture. We create artificial overpopulation of many nonhuman animals, only to torture and slaughter them for capital. (On a related note) I hate making the teeth argument, so I'm not going to, exactly -- but I'm going to pinpoint why it's actually interesting, from my perspective, at least. It's not this anthropocentric view that humans bodies Must Have Meat or whatever, and that we are therefore somehow entitled to mass murder nonhuman animals. Rather, it's that one thing I've learned a lot from the writings of various Indigenous populations around the globe is that population balance of various species (which species would depend on your area and size of community) is important -- and that's likely a significant reason why humans even are omnivorous to begin with; it's not strictly for ourselves, the way this argument often plays out, but is instead related to natural balance. As it stands, meat industries have decimated too many populations to justify hunting them at all anymore, imo, and mass farming is out of the question. But, for example, Canada has a severe geese overpopulation issue right now that is causing harm to the ecosystem (as far as I've been told). The plan is to basically humanely kill a bunch of geese. But we're, for some reason, NOT going to eat them? Like, they're going to be killed, but we are doing nothing with their sacrifice. That's something I don't understand. We're just going to kill them without discrimination, completely waste their lives, and continue instead going home to eat poultry that we bought from the supermarket/factory farming industry. Natural balance is important and we've largely lost touch with it in all aspects of life. Anyway, I know this is long, but I actually think some of this insight would help add to some discussion about vegan topics in the future. It's normalized for a lot of people to eat meat, like you stated, but more people would probably be open to normalizing a change in how we go about it, at the very least.
As a meat eater, the reason I'll never be a vegatarian is because I'm a picky eater, and most vegetables I do not eat. Cabbages make me barf for example. I'll enjoy my meals and take my chicken and eggs and milk. 🤔 maybe I should take a look at alternative proteins. Maybe alternative milks as well? But I don't want to risk loosing my lactase enzymes... I don't even eat low fat or lactose free milk. But maybe I'l like them somehow. For the vegan question, I think I put animal suffering at the bottom of my concerns. I still have to fight for Human Rights and living in a non-exploitative, non-violent, and safe society. Makes me think of Hank's video about how people have many concerns, and how you can only focus on a few, and outsource the rest to someone else. Doesn't mean we don't care, but does mean we have different priorities. Maybe sometimes it's too low.
very true. i'm vegan, and only really became vegan after my boyfriend would cook and we would grocery shop together and id see how accessible vegan food really is. the health and environmental stuff was just a cherry on top of this change
You’ve created a circular argument. How do we normalize veganism? We need more people to make it seem more normal. How do we make more people vegan? You normalize veganism. What you’ve said about “people know it’s cruel” but they don’t know the EXTENT of the cruelty. Of course some will still have cognitive dissonance after learning - but people genuinely believe they happy cows give up their milk willingly after a day in an open green field after spending the day prancing around. How did I go from making fun of my vegetarian sister to full blown vegan? Education, learning, from other people who showed me the ethical side of veganism. I think if we get enough of those people in the fold, eventually it will become so normalized that there will be a critical mass where being a meat eater is weird. Going to be a long, hard fight. But just shrugging your shoulders and trying to normalize a not-normal and difficult behavior as normal is going to have you fall flat.
I simply don't care if the cows don't give up their milk willingly and all the rest. They're just cows, get fucking real! You hipster people have nothing better to worry about, you need to start worrying about the ants crawling out there to try to find meaning in your lives!
I'm vegan, and hesitated to watch the video, but put it in my playlist anyway. Well what a pleasant surprise! I've been having a hard time sticking to veganism for the first time in my almost 3 years doing so. I've noticed it's harder to eat vegan for me when I don't have the option to at hand. I'm starting to realize I can't be too hard on my self if I want to keep going, and shouldn't judge people so harshly for their decisions. Trying to act according to one's ideal values is very challenging for sure, and for better or worse, I find myself becoming more accepting and tolerant towards mine and other people's cruel behaviors
i loved this video. i recently have started eating mostly vegan all because of vegan cooking videos and the realization that i can do it too, even as a college student
Interesting take. To share my experience: I saw a slaughterhouse documentary and was so morally disgusted I threw out all my animal food. I googled "Can you be healthy as a vegan" and got overwhelming yes's. I became vegan that day. What did it? The realization of an ultimatum: Either the cruelty goes on forever or individuals eventually stop. Therefore I must stop. I think we give too many excuses for why we don't have to stop. American culture numbs people to individual altruism. Here's to raising it up again
More than 13 months vegetarian, 98% vegan(while I was transitioning) and the past 6 months fully vegan! Stay strong, comrade! Also, I’d recommend OMAD or 2MAD 👍
Newly minted vegan here! It was your smug and condescending speech to your smoker strawman that really tipped the scales for me. And thanks so much for telling me how I think, feel, and arrive at my own ethical sphere of consideration. I mean, what other rationale could there possibly be besides that which you've so brilliantly outlined? I would have forever remained clueless about my own cognitively dissonant motivations had you not explained them to me, dear sage.
Matching amino acids intake with vegan eating without increasing caloric load is difficult... hard to pick a combination of plants (without using processed food or supplements) that will match a skirt steak's aminos without being higher in calories....
hey scott im from türkiye. i can understand ethical veganism but in my mind still cant understand the empathy part's limits. also im a bit machiavelist so when i think like is it cruel to that to another beings. yes it is. but cant answer the question why shouldnt i be cruel? i think we no different than animal just in hiigh position in the food chain with our skills. but going vegan, vegatarian or at least less meat consumption can be still okay for environment. idk if i make sense. english is not my first or second language.
Depending on where you live, veganism can be inconvenient and hard in your daily life. Where I'm from, when I go for lunch with coworkers for exemple, very few restaurants offers vegan meals, and when they do, it's often plain salad and tomatoes. Very few grocery stores offers a reasonable number (or any at all) of meat alternatives. You have to go to special shops where it can be crazy expensive. I know you don't need those meat alternatives, but in my experience, it's the easiest way to get someone to see that you still can eat enjoyable foods while being vegan (burgers for exemple). Also a lot of people don't have the time and/or the energy to cook for themselves. And in these cases, it's often way harder to keep a vegan diet, short of eating raw fruits and vegetables all the time 😅
A more extreme example of this would be people who live in the arctic. Sure nowadays they can fly-in some products more easily, but overall they still have to mostly rely on animal protein.
Just like human rights, ethical veganism is a bare minimum moral commitment made by people who acknowledge and want to boycott inherent cruelties and suffering inflicted upon animals. There's no logical refusal for it, even if plant based dieting doesn't work for everyone they're obligated to make it work as much as they practically can.
This comment is mostly for meta-analysis, so apologies if I sound like a meathead unable to digest a simple word salad. I came into this video expecting an analysis of the effectiveness of Veganism from an ethical standpoint. Ethics for me means that which is of highest benefit for both humanity and the environment. I find myself listening to a lot of vegans, carnivores, and homesteaders lately. For myself, I find the issues within vegan/carnivorous diet to be that of food sourcing and food tracking. Recently, I find myself learning more about the arguments towards the importance of locally sources food from family-owned farms, meaning you get foods from a local farmer's market and butcher. The idea being that giant corporate farms and the profit-focused motivations are the issue. Vegan's point out the dirty and inhumane conditions of these giant farms. Carnivores point out the detrimental effects monocultures have on local biodiversity. As an aside, I recall hearing a thesis for the origin of the idea of Pork being seen as a "dirty" meat source being one caused by mistreated pigs in an environment that wasn't meant for them. Pork can be just as clean. I'd need to find that again. I find it rather interesting there seems to be some political alignment in left being vegan and right being carnivore. Though I sincerely hope we can put those differences aside by simply asking that we be a bit more mindful/spiritual of where our food comes from. Ensuring that the hands which nourishes us are filled with good intentions.
I'm not a particularly accomplished rhetorician, but I would like to lay out an alternative perspective on the ethics of veganism, if folks are interested. To lay my cards on the table, I absolutely agree with limiting or cutting out meat products where possible, I endorse vegan cooking and businesses in my day to day life not just out of environmental concerns and ethical concerns about factory farming and animal cruelty, but because I love the human creativity of it, the exploration, the learning and growing of different cultural foodstuffs and techniques sharpened right before my eyes. I love nature. I love it intellectually, spiritually, and the simple joy of its physical proximity. But I don't agree with the pure morality argument for veganism, because I don't think a sterile system of presumably limited suffering is superior to an ecologically informed system with proportionately higher suffering, but also proportionally higher enrichment. One can limit and balance suffering, but not eliminate it, and the cold fact of the matter is that every living thing on this planet evolved to function in a deeply interwoven system of mutual consumption, death and creation. Proposals of pure vegetative consumption sound dire to me, it is the same reductive logic of monoculture and it doesn't respect the subjective needs and experiences of the organisms it claims to serve. It reduces animals to flat moral spheres, and their intersections with us and the rest of the world somehow fail to matter? For example. There is no functional reason to reject honey. Beekeeping is inherently a negotiation, an act of balancing the creatures needs with your own, or they die, or simply leave. Absolutely there is room to argue against specific practices, but bee keeping or encouraging pollinators of some kind is 100% necessary for a healthy vegan economy. Without industrial bee keeping, industrial fruit crops, including major sources of protein in a vegan diet, are simply not possible without absurd forms of human labour. Another incredibly frustrating philosophically based argument is that against sheep for wool, vs petroleum based products with far greater impacts on the world around us, when frankly speaking from what we scientifically understand of the subjective experience of sheep is that they can be perfectly content growing fat on the hills that make bad arable land and getting a once a year haircut. I'm getting off track here, but I guess like. I don't think veganism is the most morally correct viewpoint. I think it's a very specialised viewpoint, which decontextualises its factors from the whole and claims them as insignificant, which assigns a highly paternalistic viewpoint of others values, both of humans, and of the animals whose abstract suffering they claim to respect. It's highly pure, distilled, and more preoccupied with those things than practical good. I absolutely respect anyone's choice to pursue it as a personal spiritual decision. But I disagree with those who claim it is the highest form of objective good in the world, because from where I've stood, the people who have best cultivated and enriched life have a much more nuanced relationship with the ways we can engage with the rest of the living world, by understanding the dynamics it evolved to function through and reflecting and cultivating those to the benefit of not only ourselves but as many living things as we can include in that harmony with us.
Tldr I think vegans are allies in the fight for a better future, we need to change what we are doing, our agricultural and economic systems are extremely broken, but the claimed goals of the movement and the actual goals seem divorced from each other. The claimed goal of eliminating suffering and being better for the planet is hyper individual and purity driven, and intersects only with one's most direct actions, not the larger systematic needs of the whole natural environment and constructed environment. It is so, so personal, and I think that's beautiful. But because it is about purity, it can lead you down a strange path in much the same way bioessentialism in gender dynamics can. If we truly want a better world, we have to understand how to reconnect the broken efficiencies and cycles of the world into newer sustainable chains, and animals are necessary for this, but cruel and fucked up husbandry isn't.
Well damn, if I'd have known this view would get more than 100 views, I would have at least edited it with something better than my phone's iMovie app
Still thought this video was amazing (both editing + material). Glad it showed up on my homepage, hope you keep making more vegan content.
FWIW I got an ex to go vegan by morally calling her out ("wtf are you doing") on still supporting horrendous cruelty a couple months after watching Earthlings with me. But I'd also eaten tons of vegan meals with her already so I'd somewhat normalized the lifestyle for her. She just needed that push over the edge and some confidence that she could do it. That said, it's n=1, and it's a unique situation when you're dating someone and they're highly invested in what you think of them while living in a sort of bubble with you. But I've also observed that many vegans differ in what made them vegan. Some watch Dominion and go vegan instantly; some watch Dominion and it does nothing for them, but Gary's famous speech turns them vegan; some go plant-based for health/environmental reasons and then much later go vegan for ethical reasons. (Would be interesting to know if there are larger-scale stats on this stuff.)
Your editing was fine, but I had to give up after 10 minutes or so because I couldn't hear you over your lovely background music. Sorry.
it gave it more charm tbh 👏👏
This video changed my life for the better. I'm not sure this was necessarily your intention, but I'm going to try a lot harder to have my morals inform my actions, instead of the other way around. Thank you, from a new sub :)
As a vegan, who is trying to become better at the art of persuasion, debate, and leadership; I’m watching this video everyday😂!
EXTREMELY well done video👏🏼! And love your eye-opening philosophical and psychological points & refreshing perspective👏🏼!
Can’t wait to hear more from you!
This was such an amazing video!
I recently turned vegan, been vegetarian for the past 3 1/2 years, and went into this thinking it would be a video arguing against veganism. I decided to watch it anyway, to learn about another point of view, because i dont wanna get stuck in my bubble. I was pleasantly suprised when I heard your arguments, because you showed understanding for both sides, supported by scientific studies and concluded a solution in the end.
My mother was never a fan of me being vegetarian and now that I am vegan I thought she would absolutely hate that decision, but when I started cooking for her and showed her what is possible she was intrigued. As of today it is her third day of cooking vegan in a row for ME and she is thrilled. We went vegan shopping a couple days ago and she got herself vegan milk, cheese etc. Its so sweet seeing her having so much fun and I think we have to support that. Veganism is not just about restricting yourself, you should have fun with it too.
Great stuff, I subscribed and I'm excited to see more! Love your thought process!
Such a loving story!
If it’s highly processed, like “vegan milk”, it’s full of soy (horrible for you) and many other toxins. Just cuz it’s “vegan” doesn’t mean it’s healthy.
@@aWomanFreed hi, thanks for your comment, but I dont understand what it has to do with my comment. I never mentioned soy in vegan products or that its healthy, i was just talking about how happy it made me and my mom
what was aamzing? the part where he compared killing jews to killing animals for food? this video was banal and long winded
@@gn.punpun Sounds like you weren't actually listening, you were looking for something to argue against
I wrote like a whole ass essay, but accidentally deleted it. I was gonna copy and paste it into docs to check for typos, but my ctrl key didn't work so I just replaced the whole essay with "c". I guess this just gives me an opportunity to be more concise. I am a vegan, and I have never understood how people could possibly eat meat while still including animals in their moral circle. Kicking a dog is wrong but eating a burger is right? it simply didn't make sense to me, and this video helped me realize that people feel like they don't have a choice. They think being vegan is too hard or expensive or inconvenient, so they don't even try, even if they think it's wrong. I mean, are we any better? Even now I am wearing clothes that most likely came from a sweatshop. The cobalt in my computer likely came from mines with conditions so bad it might as well be slavery. And yet, despite these facts, I don't plan to boycott electronics, or only buy american made union products. The reason for this? I don't think I have a choice. I believe that the quality of my life would severely decrease, and my life would become much more inconvenient and expensive if I did these things, and so I don't, despite me supporting clearly morally abhorrent industries. People who eat meat while thinking it is wrong must clearly feel the same way. This leads me to perhaps an unsettling realization, human existence, or at least our way of life, necessitates suffering. Even with a vegan diet, industrial tilling kills burrowing rodents, and forests are burned to grow the crops that feed us (granted less forests would be burned if everyone was vegan but I digress). In essence, we are hypocrites. Mind you this doesn't make us wrong. It is very clearly true that we (as the human race) should seek to minimize the suffering our existence causes, but perhaps I understand the other side a little bit better. They feel they don't have a choice, and neither do we. Also I right clicked this time. Too easy. Can you believe the first time around it was even more wordy/rambling?
I feel you on that copy and paste - still some great thoughts!
Organic no-till farming is starting to become more popular thankfully. Believe it or not, growing food the way nature intends results in more bushels/acre.
Click undo?
So for you, kicking a dog for no reasons and eating meat to live another day is the same?
I really love the honesty, wish more of the internet can be this.
I clicked on this video expecting it to be some silly anti-vegan video that would give me a quick laugh but it turned out to be a really excellent attempt to answer the question of why do ethical arguments for veganism struggle so much to persuade people. This is a very insightful and thought provoking video, well done.
As a vegan who has recently lapsed into vegetarian after 7 solid years, I really appreciate this perspective. Making the focus animal liberation and focusing on the positive side of veganism could be far more effective.
As a conservative who admittedly enjoys meat, I found this video one of the most eye-opening and well-phrased I've seen in a while. I could see your little string web working out in real time within my own head, and I'm honestly considering making changes, even though this was technically made as a critique.
Spagetti sauce with lintels instead of hamburger. One doesn't need to presoak lintels. Cook lintels...add sauce... extra sage gives a sausage like flavor. Garlic! Easy!
That's so nice to hear! Here's to being a better person 🍻
I always love seeing people being open to making changes and trying to do their best. While I am a leftist who does not eat a lot of meat, I really do not like how a lot of leftist accuse all conservatives of just not having empathy or even not caring about the same issues. I defiantly also prefer videos like this and I can see how is more approachable as it just encourages people to make better choices while offering both information and another perspective on things. I think the critiques in this go for a lot of progressive issues and how they are discussed not just veganism, even a lot of the human rights issues that are increasingly an issue in the west.
btw good luck with your mission on personal growth, that is really amazing! Vegan chilli is easy you just add more veg and beans, you barely notice the lack of meat if you adjust the seasoning to your taste. When easing into eating less meat a really fun way is trying new foods and ingredients, makes it more exciting rather than focusing on the lack of meat or trying to replace it outright.
@@erik7647 Hi Erik, very well said. I’m from a farm background in the U.S. and we actually raised beef, my partner’s family raised dairy and we have been vegan now for many years (occasionally fish and small farm eggs but mostly vegan). Our politics and religion are progressive and this is awkward sometimes…especially since Trump and Covid…But we relate very well to both sides of our families. Farm country is very, very complicated and conflicted. For example, my father in law was recently describing a tax dispute that nearly came to a fist fight…should higher productive farmland be taxed at a higher rate per acre of production than lower productive farmland? This was very divisive to the farmers involved. Should Chinese shell companies own farmland and food production factories? Is there a limit to how much farmland Bill Gates can own?
A farmer down to his last nickel is a Democrat (who votes Republican anyway)
A farmer with two nickels to rub together is a Republican.
Sometimes I really wonder if non-vegans genuinely think veganism is too inconvenient for them. I get that argument from my close friends and family who routinely watch me and dramatically overemphasize any slight inconvenience I have with veganism. At work, we have potlucks and without fail there are 3 or 4 co-workers of mine that will tell everyone about their dish and they always make an announcement to the office that it’s such a shame that I can’t eat their food because I’m vegan. This has been going on once a month for about 4 straight years now. And sometimes when I go out to eat with my friends, the restaurant of choice has lousy vegan options, so my dinner looks pathetic. Then, my friends make it a point to shake their head and thank goodness they aren’t vegan. It’s not hard for them to think back a week earlier when the other restaurant we went to made me a great meal, but they conveniently forget that event.
I do think that making the moral argument for animal rights is still an imperative, because in the end I think a lot of people are only partially convinced by it. Even when veganism is a practical option in people’s lives, they can convince themselves it’s not, because they have only a slight impression that veganism is more moral than exploiting animals.
In the end, I think a big problem with present vegan advocacy is focusing on harm reduction and suffering in places where liberty is what motivates people. That’s what brought about the American Revolution, the abolition of human slaves, the fight for free labor and unionization, and it’s what will liberate animals. In fact, this is the most common argument against veganism: the notion that we’re overall decreasing liberty in order to lower harm. If that’s the narrative we allow to antivegans to peddle, veganism has no foreseeable chance of ever becoming a normal practice in the West. We have to focus on the fact that animal right and animal liberation are truly the logical conclusion of prioritizing liberty.
Great video. For me, going vegan actually was surprisingly easy and not even that inconvenient. I'll try communicating those points more when I talk to people about veganism
I had a similar experience. For years I built it up in my head as being really hard and inconvenient, that I wouldn't have anything to eat that I enjoy and I wouldnt be able to go out anywhere and eat. But when I finally committed to it I had so much fun learning to cook different meals, I discovered so many new places I could eat through social media groups and happy cow, and the people around me ended up being way more supportive and accommodating than I ever expected. My only regret is that I waited so long before going vegan.
Great video!
For me, the ethical argument was always convincing, but I am not most people. I really like your way of approaching this problem: tackling the beliefs that actually hold people back.
Because, ultimately, pointing the moral finger never really works beyond small, progressive circles. It just makes people less inclined to listen to you.
Absolutely agree with this. I've been ethically in favor of veganism (although I don't really see an issue with ethically produced eggs or honey), but because of personal circumstances it's not really possible for me to fully transition to a plant based diet right now.
Oh also, one small thing I do disagree with is that conservatives value freedom. They might voice it, some might even think they value it, but their conception of freedom is incredibly narrow and self-involved (freedom for me, not for thee).
Freedom for me but not for thee is the most accurate statement ever used to describe a Democrat, and politicians in general. Conservatives want freedom, and some have mental blocks preventing them from brining themselves the whole 9 yards. Democrats and liberals want things, and see freedom as a useful tool of argument to get them.
Conservatives tend to define freedom as exclusively negative freedom, so that free is basically who doesn't have to change.
@@antoniusnies-komponistpian2172 I'd even say with many conservatives and conservative liberals you can just plainly insert "private property" whenever they say "freedom".
@@PoetOfNoise But not private property for everyone, just for those who already have it.
@@antoniusnies-komponistpian2172 Sure thing! Limitation is very much implied in the concept.
this video is so great. it’s succinct and lucid and kinda clickbaited me in line with the topic since, as a non vegan, i interpreted the title as “there’s a problem with moral veganism so you don’t have to go vegan actually.” i have a lot of vegan/vegetarian friends and i admire it but i’m a terribly picky eater and absolutely hate vegetables so given my history of malnutrition i’ve never even considered veganism a possibility for myself. i think next time i go to the supermarket i’ll pick up some vegan chicken nuggets 👍
If you can name any specific nutrients you won't be able to get on a planned vegan diet then ask yourself if it's really harder for you to eat a couple new vegetables or for billions of animals to be tortured.
@@morrobarry yo, the whole point of the video is that this kind of argument doesn't work. Like, did you not watch the video you're commenting on? This person is about to put effort into changing their diet, don't go scare them off!
Disliking veg is a difficult problem, but with a bit of effort it is certainly changeable. I'm not an expert but in my experience, trying things similar to what you do like is a good place to start - if you like potatoes, try sweet potatoes, then maybe other starchy veg like carrots, parsnips.
Another good way to begin your veg journey is to change the textures, instead of steaming, try roasting or sautéing, maybe parboil, cool then roast/fry. You could try soups and even sieve the fibrous bits out and eventually you'll start to enjoy the flavour so much you'll want the veg itself!
Hope this helps
This really hits home. Years ago I struggled with the idea that people could and would understand but reject veganism. It became a huge frustration. Since, and with an assist from the pandemic, I've understood a lot more about social psychology and the resistance to logic. I stopped engaging in debates and have been happy to satirize or promote local vegan options.
I also don't feel as compelled to debates anymore themselves, but rather just because they're entertaining (watching some conman get destroyed). BECAUSE, they're not as convincing, and hence, fascinating, as I thought they were. Offering someone a joint and just talking to them as they would expect a normal, but affable person to, seems more effective to me now.
Thank you for the work you put in the video! You've given me an explanation for my actions in the past 3 weeks. I've been living and working on a vegan sanctuary for 3 months at the end of last year and turned vegan just like that, because it was easy and accessible, not missing anything. But since I've come back home to Germany I began to eat meat again and was shocked how "normal" it felt since I have no daily contact with the amazing intelligent funny pigs anymore. I am in moral conflict with myself and caught myself in the process of questioning my morals proven by experiences made on the farm. Cognitive dissonance is so easy! Since every one around me here isn't vegan, even vegetarian, I have to make a daily conscious effort to not eat animal products anymore, because I am living in a cruel system not made for vegans. I know I still have a personal responsibility to change my behavior, but systems really have an influence, especially with habits when my willpower is exhausted due to other hard decisions on a particular day.
And one last point, I think we humans usually change through connection and relationships. The deep connection to my fellow human, non-human beings or my environment drives my behavior to take responsibility for my actions. I think we are far too estranged and alienated from these relationships nowadays. At least I am.
This was really interesting and informative. One thing to add though is that even with all that many people are happy to reduce meat consumption or even go vegan, but fine with people continuing to do so and animals being viewed and treated as commodities. And with that, things would stay the same for animals. People are more focused on trying to get people to stop eating burgers, than on what will actually liberate animals. The problem of eating them is just a symptom of a misunderstanding of them and a consequence of our relationship to them. This is reflected in the fact we think forms of violence and exploitation are always wrong, but if it’s done to an animal, once in a while is fine. It’s only always wrong when it’s a human. No one would claim that it’s okay to eat the meat of a human child bred raised and abused for that purpose, sometimes. To people, it’s just a cow or a pig. And yeah they can feel sad for them, but they don’t relate to or empathise with them in that way. The brain of a cow or pig is foreign to them, because of how we’ve been taught and conditioned to see them, and because of psychic numbing. But I definitely think, people subconsciously choose not to open that door mentally, because of the perceived difficulty effort and energy that would than be required to take action and the discomfort that would cause, like you said they don’t feel empowered to change. I think the biggest solution though is changing how animals are viewed and perceived, the veganism being easier would then follow on. But identifying with the experience of an animal is that driving force, and is what causes disgust when seeing them harmed. A lot of people have this experience through seeing something like Earhlings but then because they don’t know what to do next to change they push it to the back of their mind, so it is a two step solution. But changing the way people see animals is what leads not to just changing individuals, but systemic change, which is the real solution.
My problem with CosmicSkeptic and other vegan RUclips content creators is this video's topic in a nutshell. Moralism before talking about material and social conditions on the ground. Not the other way around, except when it's about religion or politics. We ought to change our intuitions before our reasons, since it's easier. If I move to Nepal or New Delhi, I'll be able to transition to a vegan diet more easily. It's hard to be vegan in Southeast Asia especially nowadays since some staple grains and vegetables have become more expensive than other options since the pandemic and the Ukraine war. India and Nepal make veganism convenient because the vegan option sustains the culture and society at its "foundations" to use the term loosely. Most moral reasoning is post-hoc the way I see it.
I really think veganism is the best of food ethics out there, but the barrier of entry especially in countries where the agriculture sector (Philippines) is poor and underfunded or non-existent (Singapore) is difficult. So I end up eating meat and poultry because of convenience, my palate, and no affordable local (Filipino/Malay/Indonesian) cuisine alternatives to look towards. Poor food in the Philippines, for example, is dried fish, rice, soy sauce, and vinegar, and it's hard in today's Philippine economy to get enough caloric intake with now-expensive veggies. The negative PR will die out I'm sure, but I just want to be able to transition more easily to eventually live on mushrooms, tofu, rice, etc.
The definition of veganism accounts for this, it's about minimising your contribution to animal abuse as much as practical for you. Most vegan diets also harm animals, just less so than non-vegan diets. So the important question isn't can you eliminate all animal products from your diet: it's could you be doing more to stop animal cruelty?
I wouldn't don't mind vegan food, All i care about is if it's good and affordable.
@@TheGrowlingAraknid then next time you have the choice, choose the vegan option. It's that easy!
I don't think veganism is the most ethical way of eating. Because of the amount of importation necessary in the vast majority of countries around the world....
We should strive for food autonomy and eating as locally as possible before eliminating animal products.
The thing is in some region it is impossible to eliminate all animal products, like the most northern region... The Inuit traditional diet is very meat heavy and I wouldn't call it unethical.
@@miss1of2 Interesting, if it's emissions you're worried about studies show a vegan diet is by far the best. If it isn't about the emissions then why specifically do you care whether food is imported?
As for geographic limitations the definition of veganism takes this into account. It's about minimising the amount of animal abuse, not necessarily completely stopping it. But I assume you're not an Inuit, so cutting out animal products entirely is an option for you.
Much love from an ethical vegan (and occasional social smoker 😔) !! You brought up many ideas I’ve thought about over the years but wouldn’t have been able to communicate so eloquently. My “mild activist phase” as a vegan waned pretty quickly (I’m nearing the 10 year mark now too). I was never super preachy, but I guess there was an underlying belief that people needed to really confront the cruelty side of things in order for them to change. It became clear that many people (especially conservatives and older folk) were not receptive no matter how you came at the argument. Indeed, logic didn’t seem to matter! Random anecdotal experience: I’ve had 3 boyfriends go mostly or entirely vegan/vegetarian without me asking or expecting them to. And I’ve also had left leaning acquaintances who knew I was vegan immediately assume I was the judgey vegan warrior stereotype, being aggressively defensive, despite me not saying a word about it or giving a fk ?! Humans are weird. Anyway, here’s to normalisation and leading by example 🥂 great video!
Do you know that cigarettes are tested on animals, right?
I take some issue with a few of your conclusions, but also commend you on your thoughtful approach. I think your most important moment is when you showed that ease and convenience drive so much of what people do, even if it means contradicting themselves. Let me give you my background before I comment further. I am 55 years old. I became vegetarian in college, and remained so for about 10 years, and then in a surprising parallel experience to your own, went vegan because my partner and roommate decided she was going vegan. Since we almost always ate together, it was just so much easier to be vegan too. I remained vegan for about 13 years (my partner and I parted ways after 10 of them), until I started working for a local farm to find out why their produce was so superior to what I'd been eating all my life. The simple answer turned out to be a focus on incredibly healthy, humus rich soil built up by composting vegetable scraps and manure (with a few other natural additives) over time.
While running the farm's CSA program, I began to bring in products from other local farms to limit what our members needed to go to a grocery store to get. The first of those items was eggs, which many of them asked about. After listening to them rant and rave about the superior quality and flavor of these eggs, I was frequently reminded of how much I used to love an occasional egg, and decided to add them back to my diet. To be clear, the life of the hens laying the eggs I was selling looked nothing like the horrific conditions in industrial egg farms. So began to ask myself why I was vegan.
The answer I landed on was cruelty towards animals raised in an industrial food system. Of course, I was not confined to getting my food from that system. I watched dozens of videos, I spoke with passion against the industrial food system in public. But when I looked around at the farms I became familiar with who raised animals for meat, I saw none of that, and realized there was very little if anything I could identify as cruel at any of them. These are farmers who go to great efforts to offer their animals a cushy life. Where we are likely to differ is that I do not buy into the idea that the mere fact of having to kill them for food equates to cruelty. Now to my further commentary:
1) Were it not for meat, it is likely humanity would have gone extinct long, long ago. Humans had to be opportunistic eaters to survive, and that fundamental connection to meat goes back hundreds of thousands of years. If you think people can or will just ignore that, you are fooling yourself.
2) If you think that connection is not powerful, perhaps you can offer an explanation as to why most vegans consider it important to find meat and dairy alternatives that mimic meat and dairy in every way. Turns out a lot of people who go vegan still want the mouth feel and the satisfaction they used to get from eating meat and dairy. I find this feature of veganism the most telling and problematic. Why problematic?
3) Many vegan foods are highly or ultra processed, including and especially the meat alternatives. (Israel is trying to scale up lab-grown meat, which they claim means it is not from an animal.)
4) Growing the raw materials for all that plant based meat means monocultures, big ones, cutting diversity from the landscape, and it is usually grown industrially (even if "organic"). Take a look at how many animals farming on that scale kills, I was shocked when I learned. We aren't talking about animals bred for human consumption like cows, chickens, and pigs, in this case we are talking the myriad of wild species who took up residence in the fields, the land, or the plants growing upon it, killed while famers planted or harvested those fields. Personally those deaths disturb me far more than those of domesticated species, who literally exist as a food source for humanity. We may be grossly mismanaging it, but that does not mean the industrial approach is the only way.
5) The option to go vegan is one of privilege, because until very recently in our history refusing to eat animal products would have meant your death, probably by starvation or malnutrition. It is therefore somewhat elitist to talk about going vegan without understanding that 100 years ago, you wouldn't even have had the option. No doubt you'll point to ancient Greece, but I will counter that ancient Greece was also an elite, highly developed society that in no way characterizes most societies throughout human history. The human history eating meat goes much, much farther back than that.
6) Ruminants help the land, and because no herds large enough to provide that service exist in the wild in North America anymore, we have to graze domestic animals to gain those benefits. If you have domestic animals, and they are breeding, you w9ill eventually have too many. Now they are overgrazing the land. Not to mention, every one will die. To ignore such a prolific food source, especially one created by and for human consumption, under those circumstances seems to make no sense. And that killer compost I was talking about, the kind that makes fruits and veggies more flavorful and nutritious, that requires large amounts of manure.
7) While a small group, there are some prominent vegans who found their health deteriorating until they added animal products back in. So being vegan is clearly not for everyone, and it seems important to me that any conversation on this subject address all of these things.
I wish Americans especially would cut way down on meat consumption. Americans eat an average of 275# of meat a year per person, I might eat 10 -12#, maybe. I also think we should require any person who intends to eat meat in a given year, to participate in the killing and processing of the types of animals in their diet. That might actually be enough to shift people out of high meat consumption, and would certainly help reconnect them with the notion that they are eating real animals, not just a steak under plastic. I know plenty of people who have no stomach for that piece of the puzzle. I also think the higher cost of conscientiously-raised meat would force people to eat less of it. I still cook vegan all the time, I'm just not exclusive to it. I believe it is a real turn-off for people when this debate is framed as all or nothing. I am a conscientious eater. I buy from conscientious farmers. I am fortunate that my town has two totally local, whole animal butchers who also source from farms that show respect the animals they raise. Too often this conversation omits any mention of the space I inhabit, or the existence of farms that really do care, and I find that sad.
I know, this was quite a long comment, but you also went for it in your video. Perhaps I've given you and your fans something to think about. I am not against veganism, I am just more realistic in its benefits and detriments, and want for the conversation to be comprehensive. Thanks.
You brought up some really good points but your 4. point is in my opinion problematic. You argue that to grow the base for processed vegan alternatives many wild animals have to die which even if it's correct (which I would argue it is but only for industrial monoculture agriculture which is quite common in the us where you are probably from but not nearly as common in europ where smaller scale farms ar the more common and the landscape is more diverse through agriculture) is a flawed approach since something around of 90% or more of all soy beans just an example are used to feed animals that are slaughtered.. What you critic here is a problem with the way agriculture done nowadays and something that has to change completely unrelated from the vegan discussion... Vegans do not cause these conditions they are caused by the need for extreme efficiency (even though it is an unsustainable way to farm) that is needed to compete in the market if the meat consumption would decrease ther would be more land available to grow sustainably (sustainable doesn't always mean less efficient) and thus cause overall way less harm.
I myself come from a farm and I agree with your point that everybody should have to come in contact with the slaughter of animals (ideally kill) themselve) if they want to eat meat.
1) "Were it not for meat, it is likely humanity would have gone extinct long, long ago..."
The survival strategies of our ancestors do not dictate what is appropriate or necessary for the survival of modern humans. Moreover our ancestral diets were extremely varied depending on when and where the specific ancestors you want to look at hailed from; for example, modern-day Inuit peoples tend to consume a lot of calories from animal sources (especially in winter), whereas the Rarámuri typically obtain the majority of their calories from plant sources.
2) "Perhaps you can offer an explanation as to why most vegans consider it important to find meat and dairy alternatives that mimic meat and dairy in every way."
Depends on what you mean by "most". Most Indian vegans aren't particularly hung up on mock meats and dairy alternatives, but I'm sure many American vegans feel differently. Taste and texture preferences are largely socio-cultural. This is why people tend to prefer their mother's cooking (most of the time), and why immigrants set up grocery stores and restaurants offering the foods and meals one would commonly find in their home countries.
3) "Many vegan foods are highly or ultra processed..."
Many FOODS are highly processed. Period. The point of a comparison is to compare like with like. A vegan chicken nugget is about as processed as a non-vegan chicken nugget, whereas potatoes and eggs are both whole/unprocessed foods. On the subject of eggs vs potatoes, a single egg contains nearly 10% of the RDA for saturated fat and and whopping 62% of RDA for cholesterol, eat just two boiled eggs and you'll have already exceeded the daily limit for cholesterol by nearly a quarter. Potatoes on the other hand, contain no saturated fat and no cholesterol and have the added benefit of being packed with fibre, a nutrient most people living in developed countries are extremely deficient in.
4) "Growing the raw materials for all that plant based meat means monocultures..."
The vast majority of monocultures exist purely to sustain livestock. Human diets are extraordinarily varied when contrasted with our farmed animal counterparts, because unlike cows, chickens, pigs, sheep, etc. we are not forced to consume the same two or three crops (maize, alfalfa, soy, grass, hay, silage, etc.) for the entirety of our lives. The number of unintentional deaths brought about by crop production would be many magnitudes smaller than it is today if everyone adopted a plant-based diet.
5) "The option to go vegan is one of privilege..."
The is simply not true. Animal product consumption is highest in highly developed countries, while the inverse is true of the poorest countries. Peasants and labourers subsisted primarily on grains and tubers for millennia, not out of choice, but because these foods were the least resource intensive (and therefore inexpensive) foods available to them. In modern times, subsidies in places like the EU and the US have made it possible for the lower classes to be able to purchase and consume animal products more regularly, but vegan staples like potatoes, oats, beans, flour, etc. are still some of the cheapest products on the market throughout the globe.
6) "Ruminants help the land..."
This is a myth.
"Published comparisons of grazed and ungrazed lands in the western US have found that rested sites have larger and more dense grasses, fewer weedy forbs and shrubs, higher biodiversity, higher productivity, less bare ground, and better water infiltration than nearby grazed sites" (Carter et al., 2014).-For more information on this topic I highly recommend reading the Carter paper, it's available to read for free in the International Journal of Biodiversity and can be easily understood by laypersons.
Far from grazing helping to store carbon, it seems to have the opposite effect: the evidence strongly suggests that livestock reduce carbon storage rather than raising it. In terms of total greenhouse gas emissions, the intensive grazing of cattle on grasslands can be even worse than producing them in feedlots (Daryanto et al., 2013; Fernandez et al., 2008; Pelletier et al., 2010).
7) "While a small group, there are some prominent vegans who found their health deteriorating..."
This is anecdotal evidence, it tells us precisely nothing about whether plant-based diets are good for human health because we do not know exactly which dietary component(s) was/were the source of these individuals health problems, nor whether their issues were dietary in nature to begin with. Thankfully, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (the largest body of nutrition experts in the world) have released a peer-reviewed consensus statement to clear up any confusion:
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fibre and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements" (Melina et al., 2016).
Hope this answered your questions satisfactorily!
2. Most American vegans grew up eating meat, dairy, and veggies. Vegan alts need to appeal to things people already like. Vegans aren't the only people who want plant based options. I like having chik'n nuggets
5. you are ignoring a lot of Asian, African, and American history. There are places around the world where veganism isn't elite. To the extent that it is elite in America, the issue is food deserts and processed meats being so subsidized and cheap.
6. I agree with your take here. A very underappreciated point
"I do not buy into the idea that the mere fact of having to kill them for food equates to cruelty"
This is an incredibly important point I find people tend to skip. I am not opposed to killing and eating animals - I find zero moral issues with it. It is rather the conditions that they currently suffer due to factory farming and overconsumption that I have a moral issue with.
Therefore eating meat is not the issue. It is the symptoms of the processes we currently use to make said meat available for such a large and hungry population that is the issue. That statement of course raises even more questions and potential problems. All I'm really saying is that it is not a black and white issue.
@@TwoForFlinchin1 Humans history has been extended recently, now stretching back almost 3 millions years. For nearly all of that time humans would eat anything edible, anything that kept us fed and alive to the next day. Sure, we can both point to some examples of peoples throughout history adopting a vegetarian or vegan diet, but there is no record of any philosophical reasons for this. Most likely any early vegetarians or vegans ate that way because that's what was practical to eat. I'd be willing to bet that of the few ancient vegan or vegetarian communities that once existed, if it was eat the animal or starve, they ate the animal. That's what's different about today. If you don't want to eat animal products, there are ample options available. Not the case for most peoples in history. Opportunistic eating was a necessity, not a choice.
I've been looking for a story I read a few years ago about a tribe in a jungle who appeared to be eating a vegan diet. When western scientists observed this they introduced insecticides to help them kill the insects sometimes found in or on the food, and shortly thereafter the tribe started showing signs of malnutrition. Turns out their food supply often included small to tiny insects that were providing important nutrients they needed. When the researchers looked more closely at their food supply they discovered this. So superficially, they appeared to be vegan, but in actuality they were not. What we do know is that based on many ancient art and burial sites around the world with animal bones showing stone tool marks, that humans in most places, throughout most of our history, have eaten animal products.
On the other hand, such things are a common attention shifting manipulation, created (willingly or not) by the ruling class in order not to solve major problems of humanity...
There should be different priorities. First - there should be no exploitation of humans. And much more numerous and much more suffering majorities of population in poorest countries are more important, than slightly affended minorities in rich countries. Till millions of people die from starvation each year, thouthands - each day (and mostly - in poor countries, that EXPORT food onto rich markets, including both meat and food for vegans), that problem should be a main thing to work on.
And, there should be no destruction of complete ecosystems and populations, both animal and human. To create a banana or cocoa plantation, to grow coffee or oil palms, that would create a marketing efficient "nature friendly food", you need to wipe out a big portion of rainforest. With all of it's species... Of course, that is also done for pastures sometimes, but much more rarely. Many regions of Earth - semideserts, steppes, savannas, taiga or tundra are absolutely not good for agriculture, but - perfect for husbandry or hunt. If you would try to turn Mongols or Aleuts into vegans, you would just kill them, whole their society...
Saving ecosystems is more important, than saving individual species, saving species is more important, than saving particular animals.
Only when it would be done, it would be possible to speak about ending the exploitation of animals.
I’ve been vegan for about 4 years at this point and it took me a year and a half after beginning to discover the horrors of the meat and dairy industry to go vegan. What pushed me over the edge was the discovery that vegan ice cream and yoghurt exists. That’s it. The fact that a food I enjoyed and had frequently would be readily available to me in vegan form. That comfort in knowing I wouldn’t be abandoning everything I loved eating took away the fear I had of going vegan.
I sort of agree. Yes, normalization is a far more compelling force than philosophy-catering arguments typically are. But it seems like you're suggesting that these approaches are somehow mutually exclusive ("And so they're not logically thinking about their cruelty at all", 18:15) or that argumentative appeals are unremarkable when countless people have responded in contradiction to that narrative.
Vegan after vegan - RUclipsrs like Ask Yourself, Dr. Avi, Joey Carbstrong, Mic the Vegan, Vegan Gains, and seemingly yourself ("And it's the thing that convinced me to go vegan ten or so years ago - kind of science behind animal cognition and the rich in our lives that animals lead", 3:42-3:49) - show us people that people are compelled by arguments to an extent. And, given the number of people who became vegan/vegan activists/popular vegan voices that inspired many vegans, it's not fair to so quickly disregard vegan philosophy.
In a sense, yes, those vegans became vegan because of an intuitive/disgust-reactive basis. However, they were probably disgusted/intuitively dissatisfied by the implications of their arguments upon presentation of good counter arguments, leading them to rectify their behavior. Vegans commanded by intuition are also often vegans who reached those intuitions through arguments. Approximately 90% of vegans became vegan for the reason of animal welfare (Veggly), after all. Therefore, these strategies can be and should be cooperative: two integral parts of the greater puzzle.
The vegan arguments aren't perfectly satisfactory, but neither is normalization as an activist method. The sheer existence of vegans demonstrates that normalcy isn't the utmost priority of each and every person - it can be almost irrelevant to some. Sometimes, there has to be something deeper. How you expect 99% of the global population to reconsider their ethical intuitions regarding animal product dieting, without instrumenting some argument, is unclear to me.
When two people can choose between a regular cheeseburger and an Impossible burger, even if both were equally available, healthy, normal, and delicious, why would one effectively not just coin flip at that point? Maybe instead they decide that continuing the tradition of eating animal products is vital?
What pushes the non-vegan to select the vegan option in this grand hypothetical? God forbid we speak in our world now, where vegan products usually suck, aren't good alternatives aesthetically, lack certain nutritional assets, and aren't remotely as intuitive as animal products are. There has to be some further force to give greater consideration to the vegan option, especially now when we don't have the luxuries of aesthetic or social equivalence. And it will likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back: argumentative content. When you mention that many people are willing to consider a vegan diet if it's a viable and highly accessible alternative, you cannot ignore that this likely has something to do with said people acknowledging the existence of animal cruelty as a weighing factor.
Ethically, nutritionally, or environmentally compelling reasons, it doesn't really matter: one of them will probably be the deciding factor to beat out the non-vegan option. Philosophy's something we must utilize, additionally to increasing access to alternatives, presenting a good image, asking loved ones to share vegan meals with us.
It's the same for vegan activism and political activism: many, many, many strategies are how you win people over, not singular efforts that risk alienating important demographics and potentially supportive community leaders.
Yeah, for me, it just took understanding the science and getting to know nonhumans since i had v little interaction with nonhuman animals before becoming vegan.. it was easy to buy that they were automatons :(
DxE is trying to use legislative and legal approaches to accelerate the contradictions as well as more traditional routes.
this is such a great video. i love the philosophical explaination, it makes so much sense honestly. ive been vegan since i was 16 so i decided my actions based on morals in that case, but i can see how i use logic to justify my actions and avoid cognitive dissonance in other areas in life (especially when it comes to not achieving goals ive set for myself). this really helped me to better understand people who dont want to go vegan. they probably deep down know that arguments like "i like the taste", "its impractical" etc dont hold up against the cruelty, but cant bear to confront themselves like that.
Or some people just understand nature isn’t nice, and we shouldn’t go against nature (not that we should go out of our way to be cruel, but in the end is stopping the consumption of meat isn’t even a drop in the bucket, it’s a particle in the universe).
@@mcarrowtime7095 A few years ago I decided that doing a sand-grain amount of good is worth doing. Because I read about the sand-heap theory, and I was having anxiety over the realisation that I can't absolve myself from racism, because I've been conditioned that way since I was very young. I thought, I might as well try my best, even if I can't ever reach the goal. Because why not though?
I've read other theories, like 2% theory. According to it, it takes 2% of the population to create change. That's enough to make it so visible and popular that others will go along with it.
Other things too. Like stopping to eat meat will free up a lot of land for rewilding and reduce ghg emissions greatly, that reduce climate change and related issues like food insecurity. So actually, by changing one area in our lives, because different areas of our lives are interconnected, many other areas change as well.
Refusal to eat an animal is moral?
Under which belief system?
@@TheGrowlingAraknid it's called veganism.
I love these authentic, old-school-youtube-ish style videos :) no over editing etc, good content speaks for itself
I'll give you this: you are very clever in masking your intentions. It took me over half the video to realise that the explanation of why veganism is the 'superior' ethical system at the beginning wasn't rhetorical and that this isn't a "The problem with ethical veganism" video but a "The problem with people not following my perfect ideology" video. Should have read the description first. Still, I appreciate the look into the mind of a vegan so I can understand what is happening in there when they compare meat-eaters to Nazis. It's still a horrifying take, but I now understand where it's coming from. Also the invocation of "cognitive dissonance" almost got me with the knee-jerk "of course I can" play. Accusing someone of not being able to do something has always been a good way to make them do it. Too bad that even those who fall for it won't stay for long.
TL:DR Came for an explanation of the problem of ethical veganism, found a demonstration of the problem of ethical veganism.
I agree that the fact that animals can feel the harm caused to them, this means we need to considerate about what harm we cause and not treat animals worse than we would treat other humans...
Unfortunately this "how we treat other humans" is a pretty low bar to clear...
If you look at how sweatshop workers, rare-metal miners in third world countries or even amazon warehouse workers are treated...
I mean... We definitely should aim to treat everyone well. But we are probably not yet in a position where treating animals well can be seriously considered and enforced. And there is only do much one can do by personal example and activism...
ahh yes, some of my issue with arguments like this is that they don't take into account who makes their clothes, the underpaid and unrecognized farmers who grow their crops, factory workers and the like. Unless you bought your clothes from a local seller who custom-makes everything, you don't really know who made those and you can only imply the conditions they were in. Same goes with food and pretty much everything that's mass-produced, so we all play with "lesser evils" for an advantage. We can't end all suffering because it'll always exist in some form.
For the most part I don’t talk about veganism with people I always just share some food I make, recipes, interesting facts about plants or tips/tricks on cooking. So far I’ve managed to at least get some people heading in the right direction. From small changes like actually getting people to start cooking for themselves all the way to someone telling me that they started using a lot more produce in their cooking I think it’s all a win win. What’s funny is that most people don’t even know that I’m vegan and are very surprised when they find out l
I started eating certain vegan snacks due to my friend bringing her snacks to places and offering us to try. It is just very tasty, it is only a plus for me that we can all eat it and it is vegan.
Its all win unless an animal dies.
People are also surprised when I tell them I'm vegan. (probably because I don't fit the stereotype they have about vegans) But I WANT to talk about it, but people tend to close down very quickly and I know pushing it is not going to help. I'm trying to be a bit more forward with it now, though.
It’s cool to see some data backing up the point about leading by example and the perceived ease of a vegan diet. Anecdotally, it feels like I run into more people who would like to have that diet/lifestyle but can’t for some reason than folks who think it’s the wrong choice and actually need to be convinced about animal cruelty. This is the reverse for me even compared to a few years ago.
I personally agree with the last study you went through. The most important thing is how easy/convenient it is to be vegan. Some of the vegans I met didn't listen to what I had to say and how I struggled with it and just brought up judgemental arguments on environment/ethics. If they just gave me at least one quick, cheap and tasty vegan recepie that would bring me at least a little bit closer to being vegan. Thank you for pointing this out!
A few years ago I tried vegan diet for about 3 months .At first it was manageable since my mother was very supportive and also into it. We both struggled to find what else we like to eat instead of meat but at least we both tried. Once I moved out to college I quickly gave it up. I didn't know how to cook vegan food and had other stuff on my mind. Also my roommates occasionally ate sandwiches with ham and our room was filled with the smell. Sandwiches were the breaking point :D Environment really matters for our daily habits.
For me, I tested out going vegan as a fun little health challenge. I lost about 20lbs (from an intentional calorie deficit), so I felt great and associated veganism with positive feelings. THEN I took a look at the ethical arguments and scope of cruelty and was convinced to never go back; it was all so needless.
I totally agree that normalizing it is the best approach to convince people, even though now I find the ethical arguments impossible to deny. Like you said, brains just don’t work like that in the vast majority of cases.
That's so true! I became a vegan when my friend has shown me an instagram page that checks and collects vegan food in usual stores. I understood then, that there is A LOT of vegan options even in my country where veganism isn't popular
coming from a 10+ year vegetarian and 3-year vegan now, this video is so well put!! i think there so much more to dig in to here in terms of how white veganism is, capitalism and food insecurity, etc. but you’re so right about so much and i really appreciate the structure of this video! (also, hi from a fellow sarah Schulman reader!)
Isn't the data suggesting that racial minorities and low-income people are vastly overrepresented among vegans?
Capitalism is based
@@rkdeshdeepak4131 On profit and suffering 😭
@@Indrave_2274 profit is based. Suffering decreases the more free market or more capitalism there is
@@rkdeshdeepak4131 True, suffering has decreased worldwide because of industrialization, fueled by some aspects of globalism and capitalism. That doesn't make it a good system though. I mean, you could be in literal hell, introduce communism into hell, and you could make the same argument. At the end of the day, I think money also serves as a way to exploit, and we had no need of something so primitive in any society on Earth.
Vote with your dollar. Support vegan products. We see this shift particularly with PB milks that take up 50% of the milk space. Make veganism more accessible especially for the working class.
I’ve seen veganism approached from logical, environmental, moral, and argumentative perspectives. I think this new psychoanalytical perspective really encompasses how we arrive to such conclusions so that we may be more effective in our approach when talking about veganism. I’ve learned over my years being vegan that the best way to introduce and make people open and interested in veganism is sharing they enjoyment that veganism brings you (i.e. sharing food, experiences, etc.). The amount of times that I’ve heard the coworkers around me (yes even conservative ones) begin to share interests and even ask questions to gain further understanding of veganism because I baked cinnamon rolls or brought some vegan doughnuts that everyone enjoyed with some pizza. Inside their morality they understand killing and exploiting and animal is wrong and would never do it themselves, as soon as they see there might be a way out they will ask about it, and be more open to it, and willing to adapt it to their own life.
Did you just say conservatives are reasonable people? We’ll have to kick you out of the vegan club now for saying they’re anything other than self centered tyrants
Wow I can't believe this video only has 100 views, definitely underrated
This was a fantastic and compelling video essay! I really appreciated that it was concise and seemingly followed a well rehearsed, well written script or thorough outline. There's nothing inherently wrong with the old "vlog-style" video essays, they just aren't for me. and I really appreciated the lack of random sound effects and the background audio wasn't drowning you out, or even competing with the dialogue at all. "Extra special audio features for a jazzed up professional feel" render a lot of media unlistenable/unwatchable.
*However*, there were some exceptionally jarring audio transitions that left me feeling kinda anxious anticipating the next unintentional "jump scare". This is the first time I've come across this channel, so I'm not sure if this has continued to be a thing in future videos or you're still making videos or if you're even making new videos at all. But those parts were so stressful and this video was so fantastic otherwise, that I just decided to point out this simultaneously small *and* large issue.
RUclips is filled with no shortage of jarring audio. Children sure seem to enjoy videos of other kids randomly screaming at full, very high pitch volume. That's pure comedy gold to the 5-12 year old demographic.
The reason I've described the much more tame and less obnoxious incidents in this video is solely because your speech volume and cadence were so nice and relaxing to listen to. Most other creators use a much more "aggressive" speech pattern. They speak fairly loudly with a fast pace and the cadence is often all chaotic due to random bursts of emphatic speech.
(This annunciated style is simultaneously attention grabbing and attention holding in a way that many viewers enjoy. But, again, it's just not for me.)
For example, the very sweet clip of the dogs greeting there owner may have been less jarring had I been watching the screen instead of just listening while doing other stuff. But it seemed to be quite a bit louder than the rest of the audio and, without context, the audio was a cacophony. The 5-12yo demographic probably would enjoy listening to all that loud, incessant joyful laughing over and over lol
The clip was amazing to watch and it illustrated the point beautifully. But dialing down the volume to below the volume of your dialogue audio would have helped a lot.
Additionally, I loved the piano background track. But the first few notes of your title section were also much louder than the dialogue and very jarring. This example is extra important, as you probably use that opening multiple times. The notes themselves were very impactful, so I think you can achieve the intended effect even without raising the volume.
I agree to some extent. But while people may be inclined to "Go vegan" because of how easy it is, that's not what will keep them vegan. Sure, it may be convenient to be Vegan in when buying food from a Tesco in Birmingham, but it won't be in central Turkiye. Convenience is only relevant when it is convenient. A moral absolute is relevant in times of inconvenience.
This is why Veganism, while it can be introduced in a more digestible form, must in the end be based on an ethical obligation.
I just want to say, I really enjoyed the video and I think it's great. I hadn't heard of these different Psychological theories before, it's another string to our bow. Keep up the good work man.
I just wanted to say, that I love this comment section ❤️ Thanks for the video too. RUclips must have known, that I quit vegetarianism while staying abroad in Korea and since then I am in a deep moral conflict.
This is so insightful, most of my “activism” is leading by example and just respectfully answering questions so this is super encouraging for me!
When I first went vegan, I invited my brother to eat vegan with me when I came home for Christmas. Similar to your story, he's the only one I've really convinced to go vegan. He's said he cannot overstate how important that month was to him making the decision to go vegan, and I didn't fully understand why that was until I heard your explanation.
I still think there's value in arguing the moral points. I think there are still people who haven't made the connection that farmed animals should receive moral consideration like other animals do. I was one such person, but even after I was convinced, it wasn't until I pushed myself to commit to my new position (a year later) that I was truly vegan.
This second hurdle of practicality has been a blind spot in my activism. I frequently bite off more than I can chew on projects and adventures that I've convinced myself must be done, so going vegan overnight was relatively simple for me once I got past my own excuses. I see now that this is the thing so many I've talked to are stuck on. They need to see that their life won't be upended by going vegan. No amount of showing them how much their choices upend the lives of others will make it easier for them.
I'd love to hear more about ways I can show people this beyond just living my life. If you've got another video essay about this in you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Very interesting video, I laughed so hard when you were saying cognitive dissonance with about 3 cigs in your hand 😂😂 It comes back to embodiment and lifestyle shift, being okay with the narratives because of knowing your own truth. What created a lot of societal resistance towards veganism was it's mass adaptation/exploitation in 2018, yet truly it's a gradual shift in societies direction of just choosing to live more harmoniously with the planet - no matter how it may look on the individual level ❤
So I have a textbook example of this. I became vegan after a lot of deep philosophical digging and self-reflection. I then attempted to convey this to my wife by explaining how her ethics lead her to it as well. This, however, just came across as me calling her a bad person, to her. She was taking it as though I was saying she was bad, but I know she's not because I see the good in her other actions, just her actions towards consumption were not reflecting this good when it came to animals, which she loves greatly. This led to her fortifying her resolve and issues between us became a taboo subject.
I gave up trying and hoped for the best. I began to just make good foods. Avoid certain places. Occasionally point out instances of animal cruelty we saw. Etc. She's working towards becoming vegan now because of this. She saw it, not because I convinced her to change or that her actions were bad, but because she saw me change and saw the world for what it was which inspired her to change too.
I think you nailed this. Bravo. I wasn't sure what to expect going in. I enjoy having my views challenged because if I'm wrong, I'd rather know it. It's much easier to be wrong than right and finding how you are wrong is the fastest way to discovering true things. I wasn't expecting this to subtly undercut the anti-vegan sentiment. I think you accidentally, or if intentionally then even more praise ahould be sent, made a powerful tool for convincing people to consider veganism much more seriously.
Been meaning to go vegan. Currently living (mostly) vegetarian.
Reason I'm currently not vegan: health problems that I'm unable to debug due to depression.
THISSSS!!! I've reduced so much more cruelty through proximity than I ever have through talking. My mum has cut out dairy since I went vegan and showed her dairy alternatives (she will have them when she goes out for meals but also sometimes picks vegan). My boyfriend drinks soy Milk because it's easier than buying two cartons (soy and dairy), When cooking the meals we eat are vegan because I am, and rarely will he bother to make a meat version for himself. I'm sure I've affected so many more people and I'm glad to be normalizing vegan food!
definitely more than 100 views man. Congrats, great job.
To go into more specifics on the point about Jonathan Haidt's system of moral values:
There are 6 total, those being compassion, fairness, freedom, loyalty, authority and sanctity. Most people operate with all 6, but to varying degrees. Progressives tending to favour compassion and fairness the most, freedom somewhat, and the other three very little. Conservatives also value compassion and fairness, though to a lesser extent, but also value freedom a little more, and authority and sanctity much more.
To be clear, when someone scores low on - for example, authority - it doesn't mean that they think authority is meaningless, or that they don't take it into consideration, it means that they don't think it has moral value, that is, intrinsic value. Conservatives tend to believe that sanctity and authority are moral issues, while progressives do not. This, in my opinion, explains why progressives on twitter often have arguments about the morality of necrophilia, since our lack of moral value for sanctity makes it much harder to make a moral denunciation of this supposedly victimless - albeit, disgusting - crime.
Good work scott, i went vegan 40 years ago after i read a leaflet that said "40 million turkeys a killed for a peaceful Christmas celebration"
It was the realisation that the so called norm was not normal.
This shifted my sleeping mindset, i became aware of what was actually normal, vegan life.
I was jolted out, of the "so called normal "
I was vegetarian for a week, then vegan.
Its a valuable piont you make,
Its like its best to say , i feel so normal not eating animals, so obvious , i will develope this approach , it really works,
I agree with this well-thought out video and the logic as far as what you're covering here. I've been vegan or mostly vegan for 7 or 8 years, but what I wonder about now is the actual morals of it. I would find it very hard to deliberately directly kill an animal, so therefore I don't support these industries that cause that suffering (plus OF COURSE and arguably more important all the inhumane treatment before death). But am I not just externalizing the harm I'm supposedly avoiding to other parts of our global system? It would be one thing if I ate mostly in-season produce and grains and legumes, tried to eat local where reasonable, etc., but with all these Tofurkey and Gardein and nut milks etc. etc. -- they are pretty resource-intensive if nothing else. Like, so many products have palm oil, and it's like, would it really be "ethical" of me to forgo butter from a pasture-raised cow produced in my state and opt to buy plant-based butter with palm oil that may have been grown on a plantation of deforested rainforest land, harming many vulnerable species? (And who even knows what labor practices are involved for the human workers -- in meat, butter, nuts, coffee, or anything, it's hard to have faith that "fair trade certified" and all those various labels are really enough.)
I guess that's where the banality of evil comes in -- we can't avoid EVERY harm in a complex system like this. It's up to us to decide what sorts of harms are permissible to our morals and which aren't. But I also don't think it's absolutely true that veganism is most ethical. All of life survives by killing other life, that's just the nature of reality (unless you're a detritivore I guess? Ah, would that I could be.) And like you said, if you say "animals aren't included in our circle of empathy because they don't have x trait" you'll find some animals that DO have x trait and some humans that may not. You're going to have to draw lines somewhere, or else make it a case-by-case basis thing, but it will never work neatly, because from a logical perspective ethics are just... kind of arbitrary -- I think so anyway; I FEEL what is "right" but with all the facts and reflections and inherent violence of existence it's hard to parse it all together coherently and consistently. I sometimes question the validity of my black-and-white refusal to eat meat in favor of tofu or Beyond Meat, for instance. I have always lived in the American west or now in the Great Plains. Many parts of these areas are ecosystems (or used to be) where it is ecologically way more sensical to eat some meat. If we were to come into our natural cycles and live SUSTAINABLY (which for me is a very high ethical priority), we would not be irrigating so much cropland in an arid or semi-arid system -- we wouldn't even necessarily be eating completely plant-based by locally growing our own produce, though that could be part of it -- but we'd probably be eating large grazing animals like bison or deer, plus rabbits and things. It's like people who get angry at Inuit peoples and other indigenous groups in the far north for killing seals or whales. Like, aside from the cultural significance of this and the harm of trying to take it away, if you live north of the arctic circle, a lot of your local diet will be meat, or else shipped in. A code of ethics that works for one context will not work when extrapolated to a different context and people and geography. And I KNOW I could probably be a more ethical vegan, by my own standard, merely by eating less of these processed meat substitutes; I just haven't for the same reason many people still eat meat -- I like it and it's easy to put the potential far-off impacts out of mind.
And as to whether killing animals is wrong -- it just kind of feels like dealer's choice. Humans DID evolve to eat meat, as well as other things. I know we have these mental faculties where we can reflect and take more responsibility for deliberately shaping our actions -- that's what being a moral agent is and it's part of being human. So maybe for some people that DOES mean choosing to consume less meat. But many cultures and people who are closer to hunting or raising their own food HAVE done and DO this reflection -- and upon being a human in a land of living things that eat other living things, they will kill their own meat not because they think violence is fun but because even though an animal being killed probably feels kind of abhorrent to you or me, THIS type of so-called "violence" is to some degree unavoidable in being alive -- if not to the cow or deer, then somewhere down the line.
Meat eating at its best -- eating sustainable quantities of wild-caught animals or humanely raised animals -- I think this is a really honorable way to live, but unfortunately or fortunately I don't feel capable of it personally. Like, as a vegan, even that idyllic model seems difficult to me. Even though I don't LOGICALLY have a problem with someone quickly and with minimal pain killing a deer that has lived in the wild and then eating it -- that all sounds pretty great and very sustainable -- as an INDIVIDUAL I know I would viscerally loathe doing that. No matter how kindly raised, I personally do not want to kill anything, and sometimes I am worried because this just feels like naïvité -- me thinking it's possible to be alive while doing no harm, when really I'm just using veganism to divert that harm into a more diffuse less tractable harm impacted on different organisms by people who aren't me. I question if I SHOULD be willing to learn how to kill animals, because this might be part of a deeper human experience. But it also FEELS so wrong -- is that my instinct/soul and I should listen to the urge to avoid violence, or does killing animals feel wrong because our current society is so separated from nature and how food is raised and I've never had to live that reality?
@@mollywillo
You have got to separate the animal and human part in you. You have especially evolved parts of the brain to do that, you are able to think about ethics (you can think beyond the now) and empathy (maybe even feel it, live it) . The animal part acts like other animals, without a choice, here and now.... but that should be overruled by the human part which does have a choice.
If you don't use that choice, to be ethical and show empathy you are not human. You are an animal and luckily for you, I am vegan, so your kind (everyone non-vegan) is safe from being mistaken for a pig or something.
It's as simple as that.... 🌿💚
I'm not vegan, but I'm not a vegan hater, and oven participate in culinary practices considered vegan. Love this video because it exactly encircles what I've thought about it this whole time.
Appreciate the thoughtful video. I have experimented with many diets in my health journey, currently on a zero carb non-vegan diet. I have yet to hear a moral argument for veganism based in animal cruelty that doesn't boil down to some version of the basic prejudice that says 'organisms that are more human-like are more deserving of life and fair treatment than those organisms that are less human-like'. Anything that doesn't operate more or less like human biology (i.e. plants and fungus) is considered incapable of any complex experience that merits our respect, despite the expanding scientific knowledge of plant and fungus behavior and communities that every year flies in the face of such a prejudice more and more.
Thus I remain completely unconvinced by the cruelty reduction moral argument and view it as essentially an extension of the basic human arrogance propagated and reinforced by the human-nature relationship theory of the monotheistic religious philosophies.
Was looking for this comment
as much as i sort of cringe at the notion that this is "human arrogance", i find this to be exactly how i feel. i dont agree that suffering needs to look like human suffering to be, you know, suffering.
If it's anthropocentric to say that it's cruel to kill and maim animals, why are slaughterhouse workers traumatized and much likelier to use drugs and commit violent crimes ? If it were just a vegan abstraction to see it as violent to murder an animal, it would surely be as easy for a human to do it as it is for a human to pluck an apple from a tree.
this video showed up on my home feed. i believe the algorithm has chosen you. good luck!
thanks, i think that will be helpful in some discussions to come ! got yourself a new subscriber
Vegan for 3 years. Good video! My only nitpick is that I don't (primarily) view Veganism as harm reduction, but as an acknowledgment that animals should have their body autonomy respected and be left alone.
this is an amazing video! i don't think i've ever heard someone explain moral theory this clearly before, including my high school philosophy teacher. your channel is super underrated, and you definitely gained a new subscriber with this video.
I liked this video a lot!
I know quite a few vegans who started eating purely plant-based because for health reasons.
And once they were vegan in practice they became ethical vegans.
People don't think about what they eat.
What they eat decides what they think.
For me, it’s not so much that the ethical argument is unconvincing but that no vegan has convinced me that veganism is the only way. I agree that we have to change the way we look at food production but every individual should try to find a way to change based on their situation when it comes to things like their health, location, financial status and, of course, conscience.
What do you mean by "no vegan has convinced me that veganism is the only way"? The only way to what?
@@JaisBane the only way to salvation of course, the way any other religion says. Know the things you believe, on morality thou' veganism is halfway absurd, because whether you drink milk or not the cow wouldn't care it would love it a lot more to feed you thinking you are it's caff, so it would be just as good to be vegetarian, if you want to have less cows in the world that is, because allot less people will feed their cows if they are only for watching, the way horses population plummeted after the wide adoption of the car. Why keep an animal if you have no benefit out of it, even emotional (like with cats and dogs) would you adopt a pet tick or mosquito, will we stop feeding wolf's at the zoo? Stay carnivore save a cow from starvation!(if it's not for moral reasons, i would be a lot more inclined to be vegetarian because it was invented because climate change not animal cruelty, and if you don't test perfumes on animals you'll have to test them on people before or after the client put's it on their body, the only rational reason i have heard till now is feeding animals needs more farmland for livestock for feed than if you feed people that same animal feed, therefore less methane in the atmosphere per person by going vegan and killing all farting cows in the process, yeah really moral implications you have there ).
@@JaisBane The only way to approach an ethical system for food consumption/production. Veganism is certainly a good moral position, but it could be argued that eating meat from an animal that was already dying (or terminally ill), or ethically sourced eggs, milk or honey (outside of factory farming), can still be ethical as it does not add to animal suffering or climate change. Cultured meat, once the growing fluid has been substituted by a synthesized version (for now it relies on calves blood, which defeats the purpose), could also be a possible future example of ethical meat consumption.
OP could also mean the question of how possible veganism is for some people (nut/legume allergies, living in climates where plant-based protein is hard to come by, etc.) and what their ethical alternatives could be, but as most vegans define veganism as phasing out animal consumption 'as much as possible' I don't really consider this would be a strong criticism.
@@KarlSnarks Yeah, it’s basically a combination of all of these. My apologies for not going into more detail.
@@zachnesmith ✌😊
I never intend on going vegan (for health reasons), but this video did help me understand vegan philosophy more.
Vegan is not a healthy diet .
the american academy of nutrition and dietetics states that every human being can be healthy on a vegan diet. if you do some basic research and you really seek decency you’re in the right place
@@raquelle.de.oliveirathe statement reads: “appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases”.
This assumes the person is capable of planning or receiving assistance in planning, purchasing for, preparing and following an ‘appropriately planned’ vegetarian/vegan diet.
It doesn’t take account of individuals who may have significant dietary restrictions, or are already clinically underweight.
It is a general statement of approval that such diets can be healthy, not an authoritative statement of feasibility or applicability to every medical or practical circumstance
Speaking of cognitive dissonance, one thing I've noticed very few vegans acknowledge is that the overwhelming majority of their "vegan" products -- like clothing, footware, etc. -- are made from petrochemical plastics, which means they're directly supporting the single worst industry causing climate change, pollution, and environmental degradation. They also rarely acknowledge that most of the food they eat comes from the same destructive factory farm systems that produce meat. It's also not possible without the aid of modern technology; specifically GMOs, which most vegans tend to oppose as well.
And the moment one points this out to them, they drag out the same sorts of denials, evasions, fallacies, and various rationalizations that meat-eaters use. In my experience, their understanding of what they are doing and why is very shallow, and not well grounded in actual science.
Veganism is a privileged choice, one only available to those who have access to the material resources and technology made available by considerable social wealth, as well as sufficient leisure time and ability to prepare meals, which itself is only possible by the exploitation of the Global South. No other culture in the history of the world has been vegan, for what should be obvious reasons.
Disclaimer: I personally spent 20 years (almost to the day) as a vegetarian (ovo-lacto) before going back to eating meat.
"one only available to those who have access to the material resources and technology made available by considerable social wealth, as well as sufficient leisure time and ability to prepare meals"
Today I learned people need time and money to... buy pasta ? You do realize that the act of excluding the most expensive products from your diet makes it cheaper, not more expensive, right ?
"No other culture in the history of the world has been vegan"
Off the top of my head : Cathars, Jains, Buddhists, Manicheans ?
@@josephancion2190
>"Today I learned people need time and money to... buy pasta?"
How much time is required to prepare and cook "pasta", including the sauce, from scratch without resorting to pre-packaged foods? What is the nutritional content of "pasta", and how does that compare to the nutrition requirements of the average human body? How much of the ingredients of said "pasta" were grown in sustainable farms, vs. environmentally-destructive factory farms? I'm sure you have all those facts at your fingertips and can readily provide them. 🙄
Just a little hint, in case you don't know, it can easily take an hour or more to prepare a pasta and sauce from scratch, even assuming dried pasta. Further, pasta cannot provide anywhere near all of the nutritional requirements for the average human, not even close.
Not to mention that nearly all of the ingredients available to an average human comes from environmentally-destructive factory farms; while obtaining sustainably grown ingredients is difficult and very expensive by comparison.
>"Off the top of my head : Cathars, Jains, Buddhists, Manicheans ?"
First, not a single one of those is a _culture_ , they're all *religions* (and you forgot Sikhism in that list, BTW).
Second, none of the religions you mentioned were typically vegan, they were *vegetarian* , and not always that. The Jain and Sikh diets depend *heavily* on dairy products; specifically ghee (clarified butter), paneer (a type of fresh farmer's cheese), and yoghurt.
By contrast, the Buddha ate meat his entire life, all the way up until his death; and never prohibited his followers from eating meat, only from killing animals or directly causing animals to be killed (they could meat offered to them as long as they did not ask for it specifically). Those who chose not to eat meat still depended strongly on dairy, like the Jains and Sikhs (and, technically, Sikhs can eat meat, and some do, as it's not strictly prohibited).
But that's the sort of ignorant white western colonialist stereotype of Jains and Buddhists, which is so typical of privileged white western vegans, that I expected someone to bring up eventually. I'm only surprised no one mentioned them sooner.
As for the Cathars and Manicheans, neither of them were vegan either.
The Cathars did not eat meat, eggs, or dairy; but did regularly eat *fish* as a staple of their diet.
The Manicheans considered consuming _any_ life, including plant life, as equally sinful. There is no clear documented evidence of the daily diet of the average practitioner, but some surviving records do indicate it was similar to the Jewish dietary laws and included meat, or at least dairy. Their priestly class was restricted to a vegetarian diet; but one could only achieve this class much later in life, and it's not clear from surviving documentation whether this diet was routine or ceremonial.
In the few well-documented instances we have of significant groups of people restricting themselves to vegan diets, those groups are also documented to suffer from the expected nutritional-deficiency disorders, and few survived for more than a generation or two.
Veganism is a diet of privilege, period, and few vegans truly understand the nature or impact of their dietary choices; or put in the effort to understand how to effectively minimize their impact on the world.
@@EphemeralTao Fair points about the culture, you beat me on cultural knowledge.
However, I will nitpick about the pasta story. Takes five minutes to make if we consider that, indeed, I have simply bought the dried pasta ready and put them in water. Then I eat them with olive oil and garlic. The garlic is french-grown (am french), same for the pasta wheat. The olive oil is cheap and certainly comes from intensive farming. Sometimes I eat pasta without anything though, takes less time. I don't see how making pasta indicates that I have a lot of leisure time. Don't plenty of non-vegans make pasta ? Is everyone who eats dried pasta that they buy at the store, inherently privileged ? (This could be a fair point, as not everyone has access to dried pasta).
But, aside from all that, I am not sure that I have understood the core of what you are arguing. You say having time to cook indicates privilege, but you also seem to consider that it is bad to buy pre-packaged foods. What do you think is worse / indicates more privilege ? Making everything "from scratch" (though if I made pasta from scratch, I would still be using pre-packaged flour), or buying things that are pre-packaged ? I can see arguments for both, but then again, I completely fail to see how this is something that separates omnivorism from veganism.
@@josephancion2190
". Takes five minutes to make if we consider that, indeed, I have simply bought the dried pasta ready and put them in water."
Not true, except for the finest angel-hair pasta.
"Then I eat them with olive oil and garlic. "
Which has exactly what nutritional content? You're evading the point. If this was your sole or primary food source, you'd rapidly begin to suffer from deficiency disorders.
"Is everyone who eats dried pasta that they buy at the store, inherently privileged ? (This could be a fair point, as not everyone has access to dried pasta)."
Yes, the ability to buy pre-made, pre-packaged foods is very much a privilege much of the world does not have. Further, not everyone has reasonable access to markets to buy ingredients, at least not in the US. Go search for "food deserts".
"I am not sure that I have understood the core of what you are arguing. "
That's very clear.
"You say having time to cook indicates privilege, but you also seem to consider that it is bad to buy pre-packaged foods."
No, that is what ethical veganism says. More on that below.
And I didn't just say "time", I also said "resources", eg. the comment on food deserts above. But time is a significant factor, especially for people who have to work multiple jobs to survive and support their families (especially as a single parent). Add to that dealing with disabilities, which further restricts available resources.
" I completely fail to see how this is something that separates omnivorism from veganism."
Clearly, since that's not even what this is about. This is about the stance of *ethical* veganism, the title and substance of the video you're commenting on (as opposed to health-based veganism, which is a different animal entirely).
The entirely point of *ethical* veganism is that it's inherently wrong to use animal products, because of the cruelty and impact on the environment. But what *ethical* vegans often simply do not pay attention to, as noted in my first post that you replied to, is that their lifestyle often includes choices that have a similarly negative impact on the environment.
The most commonly and cheaply available pre-processed foods 1) have poor nutrition, 2) typically contain animal products, and/or 3) have a large environmental impact due to the method of production and packaging.
The better the quality of the food, and the lower the environmental impact it has, the more expensive and difficult to obtain it will be, and the more effort and resources required to prepare it. Being able to pursue an ethical vegan diet that does not result in similarly large environmental impact when compared to eating meat requires substantial resources and effort; and is therefore a choice only available to those sufficiently privileged and wealthy.
And that's not even getting into the impact that the various vegan food fad have had on the rest of the world, particularly the Global South.
But most "ethical" vegans simply do not make that much effort, and instead support products and lifestyles which have huge impacts on the environment. As originally noted, this isn't entirely, or even primarily about food. It's also about their refusal to use any animal products; while the substitutes they do utilize being every bit as environmentally destructive, if not moreso -- eg. petrochemical-derived products.
And then there is the problem of bioavailability of nutrients in a vegan diet compared to an omnivorous one. Many nutrients are extremely difficult or outright impossible to obtain from vegan sources without the aid of modern GMO technology, which "ethical" vegans also largely oppose.
But that does not stop ethical vegans from claiming some moral high ground, fanatically preaching at and demonizing anyone else who does not adopt their lifestyle and belief system. Nor does it stop vegan leftists from demonizing non-vegan leftists as somehow morally inferior or "dupes" of some imaginary cult mindset (eg. "carnism").
Further, much of their belief system is not based in reliable science, but rather in junk science and conspiracy theories.
@@EphemeralTao I think I have misunderstood what is defined as "ethical veganism". Most of the time, when I have seen this stance used, it means excluding products of animal exploitation exclusively because they are products of animal exploitation, and not for other reasons, which are not considered "ethical" by others (meaning, generally, the environment and health). The reason I misunderstood your precedent response is because of the difference in definition. Most vegans will say there is non-ethical veganism, which is for health and the environment, and ethical veganism, which is against cruelty. While you consider that veganism can be health veganism, or ethical veganism, which also includes the environment in your definition.
I'm not trying to make claims on who's wrong and who's right in their definition, but I do feel like the author of the video had the same definition in mind (eg, he doesn't talk about the environemnt in this video). Even though I've met a fair share of vegans, I don't remember hearing people make a case for "ethical veganism" following a definition that includes the environment, and general harm to humans. If that is what ethical veganism is, that is not what I do at all - I suppose the only possible commitment to ethical veganism would be, say, growing your own food and trading it with people you know (which, again, is not what I think the author of the video was talking about, which is why I didn't understand that this was what you considered ethical veganism).
When I answered to your initial comment, I wasn't making a case against your first two paragraphs. I agreed with them, as I absolutely don't think that veganism means that those who engage in it are ceasing to contribute to pollution, GMO, or intensive agriculture. I was simply confused about the claim that veganism takes time (again, I now understand the misunderstanding : eating in a way that doesn't contribute to any environmental destruction is indeed inaccessible, and would take time - but adhering to the basics of the definition of vegans doesn't mean you need to cook anything special).
For the cooking time, fair : I meant from insertion of the pasta to removal, and excluded the time it takes to heat the water. I have basic electric hot plates so water takes a good fifteen to twenty minutes to boil. I like my pasta kind of crunchy though, so it's not much more than five minutes for me (maybe seven or eight, to be precise ?) (I have bought angel-hair pasta recently, because it's one of the cheapest types, but mostly ate them raw. Very pleasant texture. They're a bit icky when cooked).
As for "is this my main nutriment source", I will say that while I do eat some other things, yes, I do genuinely eat like shit. I've eaten full bags of raw pasta and occasionnally eat nothing but oats. I do eat some fruits and vegetables (carrots, cucumbers, apples, the mainstream ones), and some legumes, like split peas, but the staples of my diet are really shit, and I'm not going to start making any big health claims. But I don't need to, since I'm not a doctor or an influencer.
Again, I don't disagree on the fact that a vegan's consumption is environmentally harmful. Not sure excluding animal products makes a huge difference in, say, the production of petrochemical-derived products, since most omnivores typically don't own tons of products made from animal's bodies and secretions - so "cutting them out" shouldn't lead to an increase or decrease in consumption of this.
However, in my comprehension of what "ethical veganism" is (opposing the consumption of things for which animals were bred and tortured) (which, again, I understand is not your definition), food consists of 1) pre-packaged products and 3) have large environemntal impacts are both perfectly fine within this form of ethical veganism, which is why I considered that it didn't demand an immense amount of resources and "leisure time". But as I have said in this message, I understand that your comprehension of ethical veganism isn't the same, and indeed, with your definition of ethical veganism, commitment would mean an exceptional amount of time and resources which even msot privileged people don't have. But I've never met someone who claimed to be such a vegan.
I’m vegetarian, and I had wanted to for a long time, in the back of my mind, but it took living in a place which served primarily vegetarian food for me to finally realize it was possible and accessible. And the only people I ever convinced to (mostly) join me were my family members, not because I told them to join me, but because I simply introduced so many vegetarian meals and recipes that they eat the same as I do 95% of the time. Hopefully I’ll be able to become more vegan in the future.
I actually think it's a good thing that we try to bring our morals in line with our actions, since after all morals are there to be brought in practice, not something to just discuss about in theory.
I think it's a good thing if people apply the basically scientific approach to veganism, to try to disprove it, since vegans might be biased towards veganism. After all, veganism is not a purpose of its own, we live vegan in order to act in line with morality. In order to that, we need to keep being open to the idea that our morality might be wrong.
I think people are way more likely to convert to a behavior actually proven to them to be moral, than to the application of their mere conviction.
First I watch a video from the Liberal Cooks on the same topic and now this pops up. The algorithm is telling me something.
Anyroads, I got into trying alternatives at a beach party where someone brought vegan hotdogs and I tried it, it was better than I expected and had a texture I enjoyed. Since then, I have been replacing meat products with alteratives expressly sold as an certain meat alternative, or trying the same preparation but using tofu instead. I don't fool myself into thinking these things are just the same as eating the meat versions and when I try to get people to try the stuff I make, I don't say "it's just like meat" because it's not, I think it's what convinces people the alternatives are being sold by "werido vegan cultists." Because I simply enjoy the alternatives to meat, the thing that has prevented me from going all in on veganism is cheese and other dairy products. The alternatives are harder to use in place, don't taste in a way I like, and the texture isn't the same. I do try to buy my dairy products locally from people who at least say they aren't being completely awful to their animals. I figure if the cow hasn't been tortured like in corporate dairy farms, it's okay, or so I tell myself.
The main problem is that non-humans are simply not important to people enough to care. There is a trade off. An person loses flavor, and fullness from eating meat if they go vegan. A given person may not care enough to take the trade for becoming vegan. This is something that I would say is almost impossible to change in a person. Probably because it's innate to their brain configuration.
There is another problem that it just doesn't feel good to be vegan for some people. I was one of those people. I tried going vegan. I felt tired, had itchy/dry skin, rashes, and had brain fog. Yes, I ate meat alternatives, and variety. And it was expensive, way too expensive for my budget. Personally the trade off was much greater than flavor, and fullness. Also I got really bad gas. Like serious gas.
What do you mean by trade off exactly? Are you saying that being vegan is worth the pain and that you feel fuller when you were strictly vegan at the time?
@@partyanimal9382I said, "A person loses flavor, and fullness from eating meat". In hindsight being vegan was only enjoyable at first, and then there was a decline in my enjoyment. Particularly the rising cost. Before I tried being vegan I had once ate 5 medium pizzas all to myself. No I didn't get fat. I have an unnaturally high metabolism. But for me it made veganism very expensive.
I started the video and jumped to the end...which was good. I think this video could be edited to under 10 minutes, attract more views and still offer the best of the content. The title is brilliant! Nice tone and word choice. Consider how to improve the viewers perception of your eye contact. I wanted more time on the graph maybe edit it and sort the data for easier viewing? Best of luck with your Channel!
this was one of the best critical videos i have ever seen! i am a leftist and progressive and try to engage in activism, and the topic you talk about has been one of the major issues i've been dealing with, that is, the way the left defends or promotes its ideals/points of views (e.g: veganism, gender identities, racial politics...). They keep saying the same things over and over again without accepting that cognitive dissonance blocks people's logics and morals to be affected by our valid, factual, scientific arguments. And I think the left is being as pig-headed as conservatives, and are not willing to change the way they argument, and this is stopping the possibility of change!
anyways, english is not my first langage so my comment might sound somewhat confusing.
Great video, you make a persuasive case for focusing on accessibility and convenience. While I think you're right, this must be part of the solution, "convenience" in the merely capitalistic sense of providing more and cheaper vegan consumer goods will do (indeed, has done) little to nothing to reduce the animal consumption or its environmental impacts. That is because, as @Mexie articulates so well in her videos, the two industries can and do easily grow in tandem under capitalism.
Very thought-provoking and philosophical video. I watched this video because I'm learning Germanic New Medicine which was founded by Dr. R. G. Hamer who was a vegan. Animal rights was a very important issue to him- so much so that he was very close to being anti-semitic (He thought Jewish rituals for animal slaughtering are evil). But he wasn't racist against the Jewish race at all- he was just against the religious practices he thought were evil and the radical Zionists (he was a bit of a conspiracy theorist in that regard). Some of his closest friends and wife carry on his beliefs. There was a scientist Dr. Stefan Lanka who agreed with Hamer's scientific findings but criticized him for mixing his personal beliefs with science. Hamer's friends defend him by saying that Germanic New Medicine is more that just science (sounds to me like they almost think of it as a religion that worships nature, believes in Darwinian macro evolution, and naturally promotes Veganism). I, myself, am a conservative Catholic who, despite all of this, happen to think Hamer's scientific discoveries are legit but I can't accept Hamer's Veganism and his negative attitude towards monotheism. So I wanted to research this topic to get a better perspective on it and I think this video was helpful in that regard. Thanks.
I just firmly believe that there is no such thing as ethical consumption in today's day and age. Somewhere down the line, there is always someone or something being exploited for our gain or people who are going to be personally negatively impacted by us buying into or opting out of something. Not to mention that it isn't the consumer's job to force change because we can't --- there will always be another customer.
The ones who *can* change things, and the only ones who can truly have everyone take steps toward ethical consumption, are government officials; but they won't do that because those unethical systems are cheaper or make them money in some way.
It's the same for veganism as it is for anti-fast fashion, or climate change activists, or greenliving. All of these causes are good, they try to do something that helps the environment or animals, but they alone will not stop the machine. Do it if you can afford it, and it genuinely makes your life better or makes you happy. Just know that none of it is enough to topple that system, and you aren't better than people who cannot or do not prescribe to your way of life. And that goes for anyone.
Yeah you should do nothing because nothing has ever changed
@Dellon Collins a singular person being vegan is not the protest you think it is. It takes a LOT of people, being loud and relentless not to OTHER PEOPLE but to the government for things to change. And that takes years for even the smallest change. So yeah, do it for you, not because you think not eating animals for however many years will suddenly topple big farm. There will always be another customer.
The problem with these movements is that they focus on policing the activity of the everyday consumer, when they need to be focused on fighting the government for bigger picture issues that will change everything those things affect. That's my point.
In germany vegans are a tiny tiny majority yet meat consumtion is declining while it had been on the rise for ages before. A big meat company makes more profits with meat alternatives than with meat. The consumer has quite a big influence!
@@sweetie_babie The everyday consumer is responsible for the slaughter of over 200,000 animals in their lifetime, and will pay thousands upon thousands for it. It's just not the same as, say, being against the existence of one specific cobalt mine which could still exist in the same way even if a million people boycott it. Meat production is quite demand-sensitive, and the extent to which people fund this demand is such that even one customer pulling off could have important effects. Moreover, even with uncertainty, why should we play the dice with millions of animal's lives (and their testicles) ? Shouldn't we err on the side of caution and simply never fund an industry that tortures them ? I also boycott less significant things like coffe or drugs where abstaining from it is much less likely to have an impact, simply because it's not right to do something you wouldn't do in a fair world, if you can easily abstain from it and live healthily within society.
I’m someone who have been agreed with the veganism ethics for years to the extent that I be surprised that I’m still eating meat till this day which mainly because I know it’s hard I’m still living with the family we don’t have that much alternatives in my country financial situation u can’t eat just vegetables
and all this stuff make me just delay being vegan again and again and try to convince my self that it is what it is but maybe in the near future I’ll take the step and do what I believe in.
I used to be vegan a long time ago coming from a buddhist family, i do agree on the lack of convenience on it. When i joined the military 15 years ago there was absolutely no vegan options and at first i would just avoid eating any kind of diary and animal products at the mess hall. 2 weeks in i collapsed during training and the sarge came up and said he respected me for my lifestyle but this military doesn't care for it, if i wanted to make it out i'm gonna have to eat what little i get and when i get posted i can have more flexibility. I didn't get that flexibility and even outside base being vegan was becoming very difficult. Military pay isn't much, they expect you to eat what has been catered and to stay at base, they certainly didn't pay me enough in mind to eat well vegan wise. I could technically stretch my allowance to remain vegan but it would not have been healthy. So after about 2 years i eventually stopped as i was getting pretty sick. And i haven't been vegan for 13 years. I did think on and off on how to go back to it although not so much anymore but if things do change i do miss the energy i had as a vegan its not quite the same. I think a lot of things have also changed being a soldier for this long, if i ever go back its for the health, the ethics don't matter to me anymore i can't feel it neither do i care for it. I think military desensitizes you, i don't think too deeply or too much about morals or for anything much more except going home when i'm done.
Oddly enough I'm feeling similarities between this and using Linux. (I guess us Linux people are called computer vegans for a reason.) Ever since the start of the free software movement there's been ethical, moral, and logical arguments people lean on to suggest open source software - more eyes on the code means better performance/security, having more control over use of your data, et cetera et cetera - yet in the 40-some years that the free software movement has been around there hasn't been any incentive for average people to use Linux on their computer. However, with the rise of Valve's Steam Deck and Proton compatibility layer, use of Linux OSes on desktops has exploded, including me being able to convert my boyfriend over to it as well.
I'm sure that only made sense to like six people, but essentially what I'm saying is: yeah convenience takes priority over morals in more than just lifestyle choices such as veganism. You can have a whole laundry list of reasons why doing something is *better* than the way people do currently, but no one will actually opt to change if it makes things more difficult. As a wise man in a children's TV show intro once said, inertia is a property of matter.
Like many other people have already said in the comment section, I also clicked on this video worried that it was going to be some anti-vegan arguments I've already heard 50 times, but was pleasantly surprised by the handling of the subject matter. I know personally shortly after I went vegan I felt I needed to discuss the ethics of veganism with people because it felt like such a big revelation and cruel injustice, but a lot of the time it would lead to me being frustrated whenever people either dug their heels in or just went "Well, you may be right, but I don't care enough to make the change".
At this point I've come to a place where I try to generally only bring up animal rights talking points when it is relevant to the discussion (e.g. my friend and I were talking about the issue with consequentialism and whether something unethical becomes ethical if the consequences are erased and I just made the connection to how this is also relevant in a lot of discussion on whether cruelty to animals can be justified if they are "killed painlessly"), or if someone asks me directly about veganism, in which case I am glad to engage in a good faith discussion.
I think the normalisation is also especially important in groups where veganism isn't very common. I caused my mother to almost exclusively cook plant-based when I went vegan, and even though I've moved out now, she still continues to do so, as she realised that the overreliance on animal products is entirely unnecessary. Even better, this also causes my parents' friends to try out vegan food as well, for example my mother recently organised an entirely vegan 3-course evening dinner with some of their friends after having gone to a fancy restaurant where almost every single meal contained meat and she wanted to show them that good dining doesn't need to have that.
Sorry for the long comment, but I just wanted to share and remind people that one of the best impacts that can occur from going vegan are the fact that it can have ripple effects throughout the people in your life.
As other commenters said, I think we should have a multitude of arguments and activism types going on at the same time, because all people are different. For example, leading by example is powerful, but there are people for who being vegan is materially possible, but not easy nor convenient (deeply set eating habits, picky eaters, neurodivergence, eating disorders). In this case, an ethical conviction might go further than just vegan friends.
I fully agree with your normalization thesis. As anecdotal evidence: I'm an American living in the UK. I eat almost entirely plant-based and find it really easy to do so. Supermarkets and restaurants - even mainstream and fast food places - are full of vegan options and I'm surrounded by vegans/people actively reducing their meat consumption. So you could say veganism is well on its way to being normalized, at least in certain circles, and that is creating a positive feedback loop; it's easier to get on board with veganism so more and more people are doing so.
On the other hand, I'm currently visiting my hometown in the US for the first time in two years. I've really struggled to find vegan options here and even my very left-leaning friends and acquaintances aren't vegan - they're at most vegetarian. This isn't an entirely fair comparison of the two countries as I live in a city in the UK and am from a rural part of the US, but regardless, the point stands: the closer veganism is to being the default, the more people will go vegan.
Anyway, great vid overall! Just when I was thinking about Arendt's banality of evil you brought it up 😄 And I find the idea of disgust as it relates to viewpoints really interesting - I assume you've seen how conservatives have a lower disgust tolerance on average?
I'm glad to have discovered your channel at the beginning of what I hope/expect will be a successful arc. Keep up the good work!
Lots of great thoughts to keep in mind during outreach, thank you :)
Something that I would love to see addressed by vegans is the argument that eating, like other bodily functions, is actually morally neutral. It's very common in western cultures (likely because of how our religions influenced our cultures) to moralize things that should be all-in-all amoral. Like sex for example or even just nudity being immoral and criminal.
I definitely understand the cruelty argument, and the entire factory farming industry is totally and utterly fucked for a variety of reasons, but I just don't see how people in the Arctic north eating seal blubber is comparable to that? The former is an industrial colonial project that is profit driven and has no concern for cruelty towards the animals (both non-human and human) that are involved in it, and the other is a harmonious symbiotic relationship with the local ecosystem. I genuinely wonder if in a scenario where we actually pursue degrowth what food production would look like, but I don't really see a future that is 100% vegan-- and I don't think that should be seen as a moral failing. Kinda bothers me that human animals are seen as separate and above other animals and that our participation in ecological food chains is seen as a matter of morality and cruelty even though we have quite literally evolved to be omnivores. We don't look at chimps or bonobos and scorn them for eating meat when they do.
In the end I definitely agree that the best way to change the way we think of all leftist principles is through normalization. The idea of critiquing the current system by showing what could be is something that has been on my mind for months.
Never have I ever had such a succinct argument made for veganism!
(Been a vegan only for a year now)
Hopeful to see what more you've got to over
I haven't gotten any one to go fully vegan yet. But with the two roommates that I have had since going vegan, I have watched both of them become more and more plant based in their choices, embracing more and more alternative meats, fewer eggs, etc. It's been two years since I've had to see real milk or butter in my shared fridge. These are all progressive people who care about justice and then enviroment but just being an example, who talks about the world from the point of my convictions, banking that as a choice I made for myself, I've seen more change than I ever had by being preachy.
Touched on everything
Love this my man! Hope to see more!
I've always said that as soon as meat alternatives costs less than meat people will jump ship to veganism.
We are all just struggling to survive and people think we are taking away the one thing they think they have.... Food.
great video! Congrats :) I'm not 100% vegan but the thing that surprised me the most in cooking vegan food is how easy the dishes are to clean, no greasy baking sheets and pans, I think that's a super convincing argument (that I in fact have been using). Though for me veganism a lot more about the environmental impact of it
Ive been on and off vegan for like 5 years. The thing that has made the MOST difference for me was getting foodstamps. Finding ways to help people eat vegan is so important. Eating is not a trivial part of life
See, this is closer to what I think the vegan movement needs. Live by example, rather than screaming "murder" to everyone, and let idea to go vegan, reduce, or stay be with the individual. You can certainly argue for better conditions, etc in the factory farming industry, but thats the line. I wouldnt change, cause while he brought up up moral or healthy as positives for most people, and east as the negative, TASTE is a 0 on my scale for vegan food, and not acknowledging that is going to be a significant issue with a lot of us meat eaters is why things like Tash exist....(I know what i wrote there). On the whole, I really appreciate what he said. He gave his BF (grats on time) the freedom to be who he was, and if his BF moved to a more plant based diet, good for him. I am sure that helps the relationship that he makes the effort, even if it ISNT for the ethical reasons (kinda respect both of them more for that).
The only real issue I have is that he does seem to assume a baseline/objective moral standard and/or that the moral standard of veganism is inherently correct. I recognize that many may identify it that way, even meat eaters. I however do not. I dont see any of it as a moral question, and certainly not an absolute one. HOW the farms work is certainly an ethical question but WHY they exist and the PURPOSE of them is not up to moral debate, they are making FOOD, just like if I chop a tree down to make a house. Or at least in my view that is the situation...but like cutting trees, I AM open to discussng the BEST way to do it that protects the environment (and in this case reduces pain of the animals) because I recognize those concerns matter to others even if the animals dont matter to me personally.
Interesting video. As someone who has cut down on meat consumption in the last few years, mainly for environmental reasons, I do try vegan options when I have the opportunity. Unfortunately so many of them taste (to me at least) noticeably worse than the original. At the end of the day I have to admit that I just don't care as much about farm animals, as I do about my dinner. 🤷
Definitely going to try lab grown meat though, when it becomes commercially available.
Honestly, choosing local options of animal products is probably more environmentally ethical then going vegan.... There is a LOT of importation necessary in the vast majority of countries to sustain a vegan diet.
What really needs to be stopped is the industrial, global way we produce food. Heavily transformed vegan food isn't better then heavily transformed non-vegan food.
@@miss1of2 Absolutely the fuck not. Local flesh is often even more wasteful since the animals live longer lives, or have feed transported around the world. As for a plant-based diet, not only is transport nearly insignificant in the total impact on the environment, since you can get so much produce to fit on a ship (eg, you would need a kilo of banans to go around the world ten times to match the environmental impact of a portion of beef), but moreover, you simply don't need to buy things that grow far away ? For example, aside from peanuts, I genuinely don't think there's anything that I eat on the regular that doesn't come from my country or a neighbouring country, since I eat mostly grains, beans and greens that are mostly grown in Europe.
I enjoyed the video, it was interesting thinking more about the behavioral and psychological mechanisms that exist with respect to veganism , especially in a context other than veganism itself (war atrocities). Entertaining too with the book mentions and wasn't boring at all. You know, because sometimes you really wonder how tf people go about their days with their seemingly backwards logic.
Haha I turned my boyfriend vegan in the same way! Started with a Veganuary challenge and he’s been vegan now for 4 years 😂 he said it was because I opened his eyes to how easy and delicious it could be. I’ve actually had that effect on friends too! Never convinced someone to be vegan by talking the morality of it
i’ve been vegan for five years and being gen z and having intensely studied geopolitics last year, i can’t help but think that my decision is selfish and non significant in the great scale of things. you know, i guess growing up connected to the internet has made me quite nihilistic and skeptical towards the probability of real change and less violent systems in the late capitalism era we live.
i feel like although i am a much better person now than i used to be before (less judgmental and more mature and understanding) i’ve been quite disconnected from my values. it’s hard to know that despite my best efforts, the life i live requires someone’s exploitation (phones made by metals mined by underpaid sometimes underage workers, clothes that may come from sweatshops, pesticides that compromise the health of ppl in rural areas). even tho i try to not consume compulsively, there is no perfect moral life. bad things happen and bad systems hurt ppl and animals and at some point u got to pick a poison. there is no way of tackling it all, especially if u do not have the resources. and this is the reason why i think some ppl might not have the conditions to stop eating meat etc
i admit that me going vegan was a much easier process bc of the privilege of having resources to buy non vegan dishes alternatives (snacks, birthday cakes etc), the fact that live in a big city with a big variety of cuisines and shops to buy ingredients from, and mostly bc of my grandparents cooking for the whole family and adapting dishes for me.
as a response to the pessimistic views i’ve been presented my whole life (unstable home, depression, knowing abt bad things in the world) i guess i adopted existentialism, so even though i know i do not have control over most things, i can try to make my choices according to what’s important to me, personally. and this is the reason why i think my choice to be vegan is a bit selfish, bc i do it only because i like animals. i do not try to convert anyone and i do not believe in the possibility of a world with much less exploitation. i don’t think slaughterhouses will cease to exist or that these industries will fall. if someone asks me abt veganism i try to be as nonchalant and simple as possible. the way the guy described, trying to normalize it.
to end on a good note, i’ve noticed these past years restaurants have been including vegan dishes in the menu and this makes it much easier for me to have a social life and go out with friends. yesterday i went out with them and one of them brought food for us from her job and she remembered to get me a ume oniguiri instead of a salmon one. i was really happy
So, you might bring this up later in the video (I'm still watching -- I just have something to mention, in case it doesn't come up, I'll delete my comment if it does). I actually think it is technically fine to eat meat, but we are largely deceived into eating way too much of it, for the profits of agriculture/factory farming/meat industries. Add to that western culture and its obsession with hierarchies between humans and nonhuman animals, and all the natural world, tbh... (and also, obvs, humans of any marginalized group). It will take a paradigm shift on several different, interconnected levels to change this, and to normalize anything, including veganism, if that's where we want to go with this (as you mentioned wrt the normalization of veganism). But I think there will still end up eventually being an imperative for occasional nonhuman animal hunting for food at a certain point.
A friend of mine is Cree. His community hunts one moose as a group. That one moose, whose eyes the hunter must look into as they ask permission and carefully choose the life they are going to take -- feeds the entire community for months to a year (moose are sometimes literally bigger than an SUV; I'm Canadian btw lol). And humans don't need to eat meat with every meal, the way we've been convinced we do, so that moose really is going to last a while. So there are ethical ways to hunt and eat nonhuman animals at times, imo. It's just horrifyingly unethical how it currently plays out in mainstream western culture. We create artificial overpopulation of many nonhuman animals, only to torture and slaughter them for capital.
(On a related note) I hate making the teeth argument, so I'm not going to, exactly -- but I'm going to pinpoint why it's actually interesting, from my perspective, at least. It's not this anthropocentric view that humans bodies Must Have Meat or whatever, and that we are therefore somehow entitled to mass murder nonhuman animals. Rather, it's that one thing I've learned a lot from the writings of various Indigenous populations around the globe is that population balance of various species (which species would depend on your area and size of community) is important -- and that's likely a significant reason why humans even are omnivorous to begin with; it's not strictly for ourselves, the way this argument often plays out, but is instead related to natural balance. As it stands, meat industries have decimated too many populations to justify hunting them at all anymore, imo, and mass farming is out of the question. But, for example, Canada has a severe geese overpopulation issue right now that is causing harm to the ecosystem (as far as I've been told). The plan is to basically humanely kill a bunch of geese. But we're, for some reason, NOT going to eat them? Like, they're going to be killed, but we are doing nothing with their sacrifice. That's something I don't understand. We're just going to kill them without discrimination, completely waste their lives, and continue instead going home to eat poultry that we bought from the supermarket/factory farming industry. Natural balance is important and we've largely lost touch with it in all aspects of life.
Anyway, I know this is long, but I actually think some of this insight would help add to some discussion about vegan topics in the future. It's normalized for a lot of people to eat meat, like you stated, but more people would probably be open to normalizing a change in how we go about it, at the very least.
As a meat eater, the reason I'll never be a vegatarian is because I'm a picky eater, and most vegetables I do not eat. Cabbages make me barf for example. I'll enjoy my meals and take my chicken and eggs and milk.
🤔 maybe I should take a look at alternative proteins. Maybe alternative milks as well? But I don't want to risk loosing my lactase enzymes... I don't even eat low fat or lactose free milk. But maybe I'l like them somehow.
For the vegan question, I think I put animal suffering at the bottom of my concerns. I still have to fight for Human Rights and living in a non-exploitative, non-violent, and safe society.
Makes me think of Hank's video about how people have many concerns, and how you can only focus on a few, and outsource the rest to someone else. Doesn't mean we don't care, but does mean we have different priorities. Maybe sometimes it's too low.
very true. i'm vegan, and only really became vegan after my boyfriend would cook and we would grocery shop together and id see how accessible vegan food really is. the health and environmental stuff was just a cherry on top of this change
the misty introduction 💌
You’ve created a circular argument. How do we normalize veganism? We need more people to make it seem more normal. How do we make more people vegan? You normalize veganism.
What you’ve said about “people know it’s cruel” but they don’t know the EXTENT of the cruelty. Of course some will still have cognitive dissonance after learning - but people genuinely believe they happy cows give up their milk willingly after a day in an open green field after spending the day prancing around.
How did I go from making fun of my vegetarian sister to full blown vegan? Education, learning, from other people who showed me the ethical side of veganism. I think if we get enough of those people in the fold, eventually it will become so normalized that there will be a critical mass where being a meat eater is weird. Going to be a long, hard fight. But just shrugging your shoulders and trying to normalize a not-normal and difficult behavior as normal is going to have you fall flat.
I simply don't care if the cows don't give up their milk willingly and all the rest. They're just cows, get fucking real! You hipster people have nothing better to worry about, you need to start worrying about the ants crawling out there to try to find meaning in your lives!
I'm vegan, and hesitated to watch the video, but put it in my playlist anyway. Well what a pleasant surprise! I've been having a hard time sticking to veganism for the first time in my almost 3 years doing so. I've noticed it's harder to eat vegan for me when I don't have the option to at hand. I'm starting to realize I can't be too hard on my self if I want to keep going, and shouldn't judge people so harshly for their decisions. Trying to act according to one's ideal values is very challenging for sure, and for better or worse, I find myself becoming more accepting and tolerant towards mine and other people's cruel behaviors
i loved this video. i recently have started eating mostly vegan all because of vegan cooking videos and the realization that i can do it too, even as a college student
Interesting take. To share my experience:
I saw a slaughterhouse documentary and was so morally disgusted I threw out all my animal food. I googled "Can you be healthy as a vegan" and got overwhelming yes's. I became vegan that day.
What did it? The realization of an ultimatum: Either the cruelty goes on forever or individuals eventually stop. Therefore I must stop.
I think we give too many excuses for why we don't have to stop. American culture numbs people to individual altruism. Here's to raising it up again
More than 13 months vegetarian, 98% vegan(while I was transitioning) and the past 6 months fully vegan! Stay strong, comrade! Also, I’d recommend OMAD or 2MAD 👍
Same here. After watching Dominion at 3am I then woke up being vegan :) I had that same realization
Don’t watch any nat geo documentaries or we might have to execute all the lions after we kill all the excess cows we no longer have a use for
Newly minted vegan here! It was your smug and condescending speech to your smoker strawman that really tipped the scales for me. And thanks so much for telling me how I think, feel, and arrive at my own ethical sphere of consideration. I mean, what other rationale could there possibly be besides that which you've so brilliantly outlined? I would have forever remained clueless about my own cognitively dissonant motivations had you not explained them to me, dear sage.
Matching amino acids intake with vegan eating without increasing caloric load is difficult... hard to pick a combination of plants (without using processed food or supplements) that will match a skirt steak's aminos without being higher in calories....
hey scott im from türkiye. i can understand ethical veganism but in my mind still cant understand the empathy part's limits. also im a bit machiavelist so when i think like is it cruel to that to another beings. yes it is. but cant answer the question why shouldnt i be cruel? i think we no different than animal just in hiigh position in the food chain with our skills. but going vegan, vegatarian or at least less meat consumption can be still okay for environment. idk if i make sense. english is not my first or second language.
Depending on where you live, veganism can be inconvenient and hard in your daily life. Where I'm from, when I go for lunch with coworkers for exemple, very few restaurants offers vegan meals, and when they do, it's often plain salad and tomatoes.
Very few grocery stores offers a reasonable number (or any at all) of meat alternatives. You have to go to special shops where it can be crazy expensive. I know you don't need those meat alternatives, but in my experience, it's the easiest way to get someone to see that you still can eat enjoyable foods while being vegan (burgers for exemple).
Also a lot of people don't have the time and/or the energy to cook for themselves. And in these cases, it's often way harder to keep a vegan diet, short of eating raw fruits and vegetables all the time 😅
Why are you eating out for every meal. If you don't have time to cook for yourself you need to find som, that is part of being an adult.
@@kitten_582 I agree somewhat but not everyone has the luxury of time to cook good healthy food. People with multiple jobs might not have time.
A more extreme example of this would be people who live in the arctic. Sure nowadays they can fly-in some products more easily, but overall they still have to mostly rely on animal protein.
Just like human rights, ethical veganism is a bare minimum moral commitment made by people who acknowledge and want to boycott inherent cruelties and suffering inflicted upon animals. There's no logical refusal for it, even if plant based dieting doesn't work for everyone they're obligated to make it work as much as they practically can.
Great video, thank you!
This comment is mostly for meta-analysis, so apologies if I sound like a meathead unable to digest a simple word salad.
I came into this video expecting an analysis of the effectiveness of Veganism from an ethical standpoint. Ethics for me means that which is of highest benefit for both humanity and the environment. I find myself listening to a lot of vegans, carnivores, and homesteaders lately. For myself, I find the issues within vegan/carnivorous diet to be that of food sourcing and food tracking. Recently, I find myself learning more about the arguments towards the importance of locally sources food from family-owned farms, meaning you get foods from a local farmer's market and butcher. The idea being that giant corporate farms and the profit-focused motivations are the issue. Vegan's point out the dirty and inhumane conditions of these giant farms. Carnivores point out the detrimental effects monocultures have on local biodiversity.
As an aside, I recall hearing a thesis for the origin of the idea of Pork being seen as a "dirty" meat source being one caused by mistreated pigs in an environment that wasn't meant for them. Pork can be just as clean. I'd need to find that again.
I find it rather interesting there seems to be some political alignment in left being vegan and right being carnivore. Though I sincerely hope we can put those differences aside by simply asking that we be a bit more mindful/spiritual of where our food comes from. Ensuring that the hands which nourishes us are filled with good intentions.
I'm not a particularly accomplished rhetorician, but I would like to lay out an alternative perspective on the ethics of veganism, if folks are interested. To lay my cards on the table, I absolutely agree with limiting or cutting out meat products where possible, I endorse vegan cooking and businesses in my day to day life not just out of environmental concerns and ethical concerns about factory farming and animal cruelty, but because I love the human creativity of it, the exploration, the learning and growing of different cultural foodstuffs and techniques sharpened right before my eyes. I love nature. I love it intellectually, spiritually, and the simple joy of its physical proximity.
But I don't agree with the pure morality argument for veganism, because I don't think a sterile system of presumably limited suffering is superior to an ecologically informed system with proportionately higher suffering, but also proportionally higher enrichment. One can limit and balance suffering, but not eliminate it, and the cold fact of the matter is that every living thing on this planet evolved to function in a deeply interwoven system of mutual consumption, death and creation. Proposals of pure vegetative consumption sound dire to me, it is the same reductive logic of monoculture and it doesn't respect the subjective needs and experiences of the organisms it claims to serve. It reduces animals to flat moral spheres, and their intersections with us and the rest of the world somehow fail to matter?
For example. There is no functional reason to reject honey. Beekeeping is inherently a negotiation, an act of balancing the creatures needs with your own, or they die, or simply leave. Absolutely there is room to argue against specific practices, but bee keeping or encouraging pollinators of some kind is 100% necessary for a healthy vegan economy. Without industrial bee keeping, industrial fruit crops, including major sources of protein in a vegan diet, are simply not possible without absurd forms of human labour.
Another incredibly frustrating philosophically based argument is that against sheep for wool, vs petroleum based products with far greater impacts on the world around us, when frankly speaking from what we scientifically understand of the subjective experience of sheep is that they can be perfectly content growing fat on the hills that make bad arable land and getting a once a year haircut.
I'm getting off track here, but I guess like. I don't think veganism is the most morally correct viewpoint. I think it's a very specialised viewpoint, which decontextualises its factors from the whole and claims them as insignificant, which assigns a highly paternalistic viewpoint of others values, both of humans, and of the animals whose abstract suffering they claim to respect. It's highly pure, distilled, and more preoccupied with those things than practical good. I absolutely respect anyone's choice to pursue it as a personal spiritual decision. But I disagree with those who claim it is the highest form of objective good in the world, because from where I've stood, the people who have best cultivated and enriched life have a much more nuanced relationship with the ways we can engage with the rest of the living world, by understanding the dynamics it evolved to function through and reflecting and cultivating those to the benefit of not only ourselves but as many living things as we can include in that harmony with us.
Tldr I think vegans are allies in the fight for a better future, we need to change what we are doing, our agricultural and economic systems are extremely broken, but the claimed goals of the movement and the actual goals seem divorced from each other. The claimed goal of eliminating suffering and being better for the planet is hyper individual and purity driven, and intersects only with one's most direct actions, not the larger systematic needs of the whole natural environment and constructed environment. It is so, so personal, and I think that's beautiful. But because it is about purity, it can lead you down a strange path in much the same way bioessentialism in gender dynamics can. If we truly want a better world, we have to understand how to reconnect the broken efficiencies and cycles of the world into newer sustainable chains, and animals are necessary for this, but cruel and fucked up husbandry isn't.