Super appreciate caller #2's question RE how the changes were developed. With due respect, I have always felt that the attitude towards controller changes of this ilk come across as "we know better, here are the rules", much in contrast to how grassroots melee and smash generally is. I understand that the intention is to make sure the game is fair, and I think that maximal transparency helps people (myself included) respond more openly to proposed rule changes. Speaking for myself, having the changes be informed by anonymous "good players" is not satisfactory, I would very much like to know how many people contributed, to allow myself and the community to be more confidence in proposed changes.
Most people don't even necessarily care about the reason for specific rules, its that the vibe of a Melee Elite running things in the dark isn't an appealing idea. The method of 'Here is a 100 page document detailing everything' was a revolutionary method, not only was it transparent and not darkroomy, it didn't need to engage with people who didn't understand certain things, because you can just go 'read the doc'. It did not educate the populace about anything, but that isn't the most important thing.
you guys make great points. Right now with slippi we have that the elite are the ruling class of melee. Fizzi allows only an elite circle of people have access to any ranked game .slp played for analysis, and controls a decent amount of the competitive scene. I can tell you right now I have my own controller I've developed and tuned to work well with melee, and it is undetectable in every way they mentioned here with the "replay checker", and I'm sure that my controller is stronger than what they would be giving out. It's funny how the "good" players want to limit people's controllers because they won't be able to guaranteed beat you otherwise. Anyway Melee for a long time has needed someone to decentralize the competitive platform but nobody is rising to the occasion to actually do it, mostly because other jobs are far more important. But it's sad when I think back to this community, I don't like the direction you guys are headed with this firmware tyranny.
@@snared_ I appreciate the original commenters point about transparency, and I don't have much to say one way or the other on the fairness or practicality of the proposed rules. But to your point, I really do not think it's tyrannical in any way to propose these changes. As far as I can tell (admittedly as someone who is only a spectator) this is a proposal by people who have established good will through long term commitment and work in a community paralyzed by passionate disagreement. If its adopted across the board it'll be because of precedent and compromise among disparate TOs. No shade, but it's odd to me that your complaint is that the scene needs to be decentralized, when it seems so much of the time people complain about the very opposite thing. That being said, I get being frustrated by the politics of it. In that way it's similar to other kinds of grassroots organization. It's ugly, and you can't make everyone happy
I was a tester. I felt they did not take feedback very well and were seeking justifications for the conclusions that they already had arrived at. Many valid concerns were stonewalled without much justification. We were less there for “feedback” and more there for glitch hunting
@snared_ This comment makes no sense. You sound like Dale from King of the Hill. If you have the magic bullet controller that is simultaneously better than everyone else's and also can't be traced, why are you mad? Who's "job" would it be to decentralize melee, and what would that look like for rankings, major organization etc.? Wouldn't that person then become the Tyrant?
dude all this work to add RNG to controllers and make box players have to relearn SOCD for no reason 1.03 was made with a ton of hard work in an attempt to bring gcc UP to box level and people just dismissed it and now are trying to bring down all controllers and add RNG variance to a game that values consistency
CV :I played on a standard GCC for 3 years with a very non ergonomic permanent claw grip. After I developed chronic tendonitis, I switched to an LBX because it allows me to play for up to an hour without pain. A lot of the changes seem pretty reasonable so I'm excited to try them out when they get implemented on Haybox.
Didn't Nintendo "ban" any 3rd party controllers? Or is it just you have these "elite few" in melee who think they know better than us who develop our own firmware to use a specific version they made? So you might be allowed to use LBX if you let them choose your firmware? Tyranny but whatever.
I feel that there should be more conversations on the philosophy of controller rules. There seemed to be a clear bias in this conversation towards hostility of box controllers. I feel that a lot of these proposed are based on this philosophy that all controllers should be as identical to a gamecube controller as possible. Artificially restricting/nerfing a digital box controller to be like an analogue GCC feels unnatural.
Digital box controllers are already designed to approach what an analogue GCC is supposed to do. These changes are meant to make that gap even smaller.
Pretty much all these issues come from the digitisation of movement. If it's about ergonomics, we should push for a rectangle controller with an analog stick, like the Alt Lab Smash Stick. But the limited backing for it suggests more people are motivated by the game-changing advantages of digital movement.
This! I don't get why nobody acknowledges this problem. (digitisation of analogue inputs) It's THE reason we're having this nerfing discussion in the first place. To which there is no good solution, it'll always be either over-nerfed, or not enough. I'm not sure about the whole ergonomics thing, I do kinda feel though like that argument gets used too often to shut-down ban/nerf discussions.
The point of moving away from sticks is because of thumb RSI. I personally can't stand sticks anymore, but regardless, I'm never going to tournaments anymore. I'm pretty sick of the anti-box people in the smash community, and honestly, I don't want to be part of a community that will judge me simply because I can't play on GameCube controller anymore
@@random_bitthe analog stick on the alt lab stick is an adapted arcade stick, so would not affect thumb RSI. Possibly wrist? But you could equally get finger RSI from tapping buttons... And an upright hand position is better for your wrist/elbow. I'm glad we have other controller options so that people with hand issues are still able to play. But it's worth acknowledging that using digital buttons for movement brings objective advantages.
@@random_bit True, that kind of behaviour is not appropriate. Like I said, I'm glad we have controller options! I'm just trying to push for even more options (not just GC and BOXX) that bring the community together.
@@vanillafella4893"perfect" is subjective. There are certain techniques that require specific coordinates. These are impossible to consistently hit even with notches, but are trivial on a digital controller. Such techniques would be box only unless we allow analog inputs to clamp to custom coordinates. This would make previously banned controllers like Arduinos and goomwaves the norm. Either we just don't have rules and your controller can do whatever or enforcement becomes a nightmare. Melee would be one big controller arms race. The RNG in the new guidelines can shift an intended input 1 unit (1/160th of the diameter of a controller) vertically and horizontally (excluding cardinals which can always be 1.0). Overall, this helps box players because the rules can now be more lax on restricted modifiers since you can't exploit coordinate specific techniques. Overall I think the RNG applied here is in the best interest of competitors today. Perhaps if there are significant advancements it will need to be revisited.
Wouldn't time travel prevent boxx users from performing " the goomy zoomy" , which is a technique possible on gcc. Then it should be possible on box too, no? The inputsare right left right,one frame after another
CV: I play on a PHOB (2.05) GCC as of one week ago! Prior to that, I used a stock GCC for countless years. My reason for upgrading was a desire for maximal control & C stick consistency from both digital snap back reduction and re-calibration functionality. My old stock controller was well used, and had some reliability issues that were holding back my execution. No more controller Johns! :')
CV: I play on a vanilla GCC. It's pretty ass according to me and everybody I know who has tried it but I think it's mostly because I SDI and moonwalk like a maniac lmao. I would assume PTAS uses a very swell OEM controller.
CV: I use a completely vanilla ultimate gamecube controller, but the most interesting controller I've seen in bracket is a Ganon player with the tag ABE I saw at a local using an xbox one controller with a custom adapter he said he made himself and was lagless. I remember seeing him on anthers way back in the day too so I think he's been using it for a long time. CV2: I think PTAS is a Pikachu player, I don't have any evidence or reason behind it, just vibes
I play on a standard GCC with barely any rubber on the analog stick. I absolutely despise the inconsistency on my analog and c stick but I'm way too lazy to do much about it. I've often considered swapping to a b0xx style controller but for now I cba. Mostly I would be looking for more consistency so I can more easily determine whether it's me or the controller that is causing unexpected things in my gameplay. I would love to see more ufc changes to allow players with basic GCC controllers to not get accidental back throws, missed dash dances or tapjumps etc. A fair and even playing field should be the future for this game without forcing people to be engineers or big spenders to keep up
a standard gcc will never miss a dash dance nor tap jump. I would recommend you open your controller in an input viewer and verify that there's no dead spots in your analog. One other explanation might be that you are only holding tap jump for less than 1/60th of a second, which would then become polling RNG.
CV: I play on my laptop keyboard with no added software, just default slippi controls and some very specific values for anything analogue, as by default you only get 8 angles and a modifier key to work with.
for anyone interested in the specifics of my very specific values for analogue stuff, I have the radius set to 83%, as that is required to get all of the whacky following stuff to work properly (you can get stuff to work for other radius values but it fucks with other stuff), I have modifier set to halve the value, like normal, and left and right both set to the 100% of the normal values. down however, is set to 104% of the normal value, as that is the amount at which pressing down and modifier gets you a shield drop for radius 83, and up set to 70% the normal value, as that way I can press both down and up at the same time to get a very slight downwards value, such that I can press down up and right or left to get a reasonable wave dash angle (cause 45 degree wavedashes suck), and I then bound up and down and R to a single button that I use for wavedashing (I use wasd so I can't reasonable press up and down at the same time normally). amusingly this controller would be against the new ruleset were I to try to use it in tournaments, despite being way worse than the vast majority of controllers (on account of only having 20 possible analogue values that I can hit, with a decent number of those being kinda useless), because I physically can't add a travel time nerf or coordinate fuzzing or anything. that said, it's not like I could enter tournaments with this aside from I suppose online tournies, which I'm not doing anyway. I'm generally a big fan of the new rules for controllers though, my goofy ass setup is obviously not something that should really be considered when making this kind of thing, and I think it'll be good for the community (also I backed the glyph kickstarter so I will be able to play the game on a legal controller fairly soon lol)
Community Voice: I use a standard gamecube controller with no modifications but I’m more of a tournament watcher than a player. But when I do enter it’s always just standard gamecube controllers.
I play on OEM (specifically smash 4 JP White). I have some wrist pain (not diagnosed with anything they just kinda hurt), but it's unrelated to melee/gamecube controllers. I don't feel any extra pain when using a gamecube controller for a few hours.
I'm glad that all these cheaters cheesing their way into top 8 at majors are going to get nerfed. Can't stand how high level tournaments have become dominated by rectangles and all the top players are forced to swap to them or lose to some nobody. I much prefer watching the legitimate underdogs use their natural controllers. Watching them wince from their hand pain while they struggle against their faulty mods that they gambled hundreds of dollars on is so much more satisfying and righteous.
@@OrezOPThere was an enormous amount of sarcasm in my comment. For a controller so strong to be deemed "cheating" it is amazing to me that Zuppy, Pipsqueak, and Swift are the only ones that play it, and to mediocre success at best (they aren't dominating after picking it up). Also, crazy how there was a 75 minute discussion and the legality of the $500 mods professionals use on their controllers wasn't mentioned. Oh, because "Melee was designed" to have capacitors, redeveloped software, notches, remapped controls, shortened triggers, and altered buttons but having a rectangle is some Frankstein's monster shit 😂
I personally don't feel much of a difference from the changes, the only exception being neutral SOCD means I will no longer play Samus. Superwavedashing goes from slightly easier than on a OEM to literally twice as hard since you have to let go of left and then press right on the same frame as apposed to 2ip with reac. I'm super down for everything else but I'm sad to not be able to do the thing that makes me like playing Samus so much.
did you have to cheat to be able to do that movement with samus though? Because if you didn't have to cheat to make that movement, why is it now not allowed? If you picked up an original copy of the game on gcc, can you execute a superwavedash as samus? Because if so, there is 0 reason to ban it through SOCD except for tyranny.
@@snared_ I don't quite understand the question? I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, but to clarify, I can superwavedash on a gamecube controller with pretty good accuracy, as well as on an oem with snapback and no real modding. on the former default socd, 2ipreac, I could get it a bit more consistently than on an oem, however, because I learned melee on a box I'm not sure if better gcc players can do it as consistently as me playing box. with neutral socd my consistency drops from about 50/50 to 1/80. it is way way harder. If I'm just misunderstanding your phrasing and you are on my side then sorry for the long explanation haha
@@rustypaperplate9085 Okay, thank you for clarifying! Asking to double check, and wow. So that means that they are nerfing the game PAST the point that we all experienced with standard setups even back in the day. Soo that's a really bad change then! Hope they revert it soon. Even though I am against having a firmware standardization overall, absolutely the original standard gcn deserves no nerfs whatsoever, it's absolutely ridiculous for that to get nerfed meanwhile we have (random 0.98-1.00)x cardinal snapping flying undetected unlike straight 1.00x mods..
@@snared_ yeah no problem! Although to be honest, Im not sure if there is a better solution if they are just going of of raw box nerfs. In my opinion I agree that the top 10 characters are fairly balanced after the new firmware, especially fox falco and marth, i just wish this specific thing wasnt effected in the character i play. personally i am in favor for SOME of the 1.03 changes to bring gcc up to the level of box controllers as apposed to bringing boxx down, especially since we already have ucf in like every tournament in the country. A mix between some box nerfs and slight gcc buffs would be my vote, but on the other hand, the box being nerfed makes me feel a bit better about being a box player, like i dont have to capitulate every time i get on the setup. im in two minds about it.
I don't want this to come across as too negative, but I feel like Toph interrupted quite a lot in this podcast. Sometimes people need to explain som stuff to lay a framework of understanding for the listener before actually concluding with their answer. It seems this got interrupted a few times here. I don't know if it's because of a delay in the call or something or because the connection was bad at times, but it seemed as though they were still talked over a lot.
CV: I use a stock OEM GCC. I don't hold no truck with those digital-slinging, b0xx-spitting, keyboard-wielding, Sanwa/Seimitsu stinging, Arduino-pinging, PCB-flinging pansies that need some godforsaken ghost in their controllers to wave their dash. I prefer my plain-Jane controllers au naturale, just like the good 'ole Lord and pappy Sakurai intended. Also, PTAS is a Samus main, 100%. Look at the Hugo beard on his face; it's a dead giveaway.
To answer ptas's question to the audience at the end. I've played melee since it came out and still use just an OEM GCC, the only mods for it I really like having are a snapback capacitor and a trigger plug on my L button. Ive had controllers in the past that had mechanical switches but truthfully think that's an over-hyped function that isn't necessary. I've probably owned at least 12 different controllers in this time.
CV: I play on keyboard with BOXX settings/firmware. Living in SEA, I found it difficult trying to find a GCC plus I'm more comfortable gaming on a keyboard in general. Haven't really played much Melee cuz life got busy, but mainly keep up with GG Melee and watching the big majors so I wonder how I'll have to update my keyboard settings when I play. CV2: I think PTAS plays Falco :)
CV: In my first 1.5 years of playing I went through four controllers. Two shitty offbrand GCCs which each lasted about 2 months and two restored T3 GCCs from a "retro store". I frequently had to do "part transplants" to my current controller. Eventually though all four developed potentiometer and/or motherboard problems. Now I'm on a modded Sm4sh GCC (brand new from the modder). It has Springless L, Wavedash notches, a Snappback capacitor, tactile Z, and a nunchuck stick which I carried over from my frankenstein('s controller) (The rubber on all four previous controllers' sticks also quite literally wore and tore) In total the modded controller cost me CHF 135.- (USD 150.50) which I feel pretty good about. Greetings from Switzerland
CV: Been playing on an OEM gamecube controller with mods (snapback capacitor, reduced trigger spring) for like 3 years, standard gc controller before that. Wouldn't switch to a box unless I absolutely had to cuz I love these things too much also PTAS def is a Peach main
CV: I use several vanilla controllers, all of them roughly at least 15 or more years old. One of them I'm pretty certain is the same one I got with my gamecube and a copy of Melee for christmas in 2001. I stopped playing videogames with any regularity in the 2010s. Once covid happened, I got into slippi through connecting with some old highschool buds online (one of them was one was an early TO), and fortunately all those controllers were still kicking around in a drawer. There's a vast range of quality between them and I've been wearing them down quickly (I honestly wonder if I'm being too rough on the sticks), so I tend to favor whichever one is in the best shape at any given time.
what if I already wrote my own controller firmware to control melee with? What do you mean by "The legal version of the firmware".. I my own controller firmware which I tuned to work well with Melee. So I can't use it? What about every other speedrun where controllers are not checked?
If your firmware isn't compliant it would presumably be banned, other games and speed runs don't factor into the conversation beyond the anecdotal evidence that comes from other communities decisions
@@Emphetic Some people are happy to wait and receive their controller from "the few allowed people to create them". I don't want to wait and I've done a better job anyway. There's different modes. God Fox all the way down to Scrub Fox. The controller race has been in full swing for the last year, and if you haven't developed your own shit yet you're simply far behind. Good luck detecting my controller firmware btw, I don't stick to +1 and -1 cardinals nor do "the same" SDI patterns off a single button press. Noise is necessary to incorporate to provide benefit of the doubt. And yes I have incorporated stochastic travel times as well. Anyway my controller plugs directly into gamecube/wii/pc, and I'm surely not the only person who isn't happy to just wait for "the one smart guy" to design hardware for me. I'm happier to be that guy, not to wait on him, so anyway, have fun waiting on that smart guy to give you the controller that isn't nearly as good as mine! I'll be farming ranked slippi while you're waiting/complaining!
@@snared_ shits open source it isn't restricted who can make them, quality varies and people charge too much tho I agree. That being said all I said was if it isn't compliant then it probs won't be allowed. I made it myself isn't really something they care about, they even said if you make it it just has to be on a site so they can get a copy to verify it's legitimate. To the other section, not sure where you got it from but my first comment but it was not meant to come off as unfriendly, just to respond to your question. I make controllers and everything is open source so I just use that software. I am in no way complaining, just tried to answer your question
@@Emphetic what do you mean by "Compliant"? This is what I mean by Tyranny - unable to play without the proper "papers" validation check. It's a force that can be used to shut a player down arbitrarily while historically allowing unchecked controllers for the current top players.. If someone is able to buy melee, rip the iso themselves, begin working, grind at home against machines/ai they built that go from scrub to TAS level, and they show up to America to destroy any current player with their most comfortable controller that they built themselves over years, why exactly should we not let them do it? Current top competitors are financially incentivized to shut those kinds of people down and requiring the controller to be installed with normie firmware is just another way for TO's to make everyone play more of the same. It doesn't allow the person who is a stronger competitor and better to be on top when you stunt innovation. Then you'll have the people who say Okay I just won't compete in your "stunted controller category" meanwhile I'm going to continue grinding a more pure version of Melee that allows for increasingly powerful controller mechanisms. Now 20 years down the line, your controller firmwares are extremely out of date, you have to talk about how to move the community off whatever patch, blah blah. It's a never -ending process that literally nobody wants to correlate their success to. "Shitty firmware update now invalidates my edge over my opponent? I guess I won't succeed in melee anymore!" Not a single person in life would want to be subject to that. "standardizing" controller firmware is only a band-aid to a problem of much larger scale than is currently abused in game. Controllers could be much worse, for example, if the controller was processing feed from phone cam on a player's body to do a quick ML and potentially detect some on-screen situations for a "mode swap" or other functionality. Trust me that controllers can get far worse so trying to adopt a "standard" is only going to let people 10-20 years down the line absolutely dominate your entire category with their fancy controller techniques they've been mastering separately to your "stunted controller version of Melee" over the years.. Anyway, I'm not a melee competitor so my opinion on this matter is not correlated with my financial or otherwise success whatsoever, so just keep in mind I don't actually care too much about whether they impose firmware requirements, just that there will eventually be consequences in the form of future domination of the stunted category.
@@snared_ yeah it's chill to not compete but within competition the goal is to have the fewest outside factors affect someone's play. The prism is allowed because of comfort but having a button that does perfect ledgedashes isn't. Standard is there to avoid people having to go to "a select few". If controllers are open source or "Normie software" then anyone can make them leading to less bullshit. It's most definitely not "tyranny" and implying a secret cabal is attempting to gain control for financial means is definitely a take. Others can have other opinions but I think making sure software is available and follows clear rules can only make things cheaper and easier for the average player. It's great you can make a controller you are more happy with and if you aren't competing then it doesn't need to comply with shit but I think it's pretty objective that macros for specific functions such as ledgedashing or perfect waveshines limit the skill ceiling for players. I think the ruleset is being made really specific to avoid tos struggling to enforce it. A simple ruleset of "1-1 button and stick mapping" sums up most of it but then you get goomwaves altering values and people arguing it's 1-1 because it's a similar motion even if the values fix themselves for you. Imo it's about making sure that everyone is able to learn the game and get good with the same level of work, if I fuck up a top player when they can't jump and can only jab while I have macros to 0-death them then no-one is gonna give a shit that I won. Obviously hyperbole but still the same point. I could be wrong but to me it feels like you think this is sinister and I feel it's a legitimate attempt by a lot of people to make everything more equal and fair. Down to keep having this convo tho I really do enjoy talking about conchs so if there are points you disagree with feel free to point them out.
1:00:58 so something that doesnt happen on a GCC by being a technical player and having precise inputs is now inevitable on box due to.... chance? regardless of skill or technical ability mind you. all I'm saying is that I've never seen a top level GCC player do what he just described, and he's saying that it "might" happen to a boxx player no matter what. seems DOPE
there is no need for these changes they are adding more RNG with controllers we should be making every controller work the most consistent it can not adding more variance into the game
If you go back 10 seconds you'll hear him say this only happens if you input the up b too fast. There is no RNG in this situation. Learn the timing (the same timing as GCC) and you'll be consistent.
CV: i play on B0XX for a year after 6 years playing on OEM gamecube controllers that added a ton of inconsistency to the game i worry these changes add more variance to controllers of any kind when 1.03 was well documented researched and brings gcc up to boxx level
don't worry u still get the fastest possible travel time, all the time, with 100% consistency. U also have 100% free shield drops, dash back, crouch cancel while running, up tilts with no fear of jumping, no travel time on c stick, consistent wave dash length etc whereas gcc users gotta worry about maneuvering a slow ass stick around with imprecise values. All this consistency and literally impossible to miss tech eliminates a lot of variables just sayin lol idk how it's fair
@@samuwall bro not ever jumping out of a wavedash up tilt is f____ ridiculous. Boxx has always been cheater f0xx. Always was cheater f0xx, always will be cheater f0xx.
CV: i play on The Prism made by Wunvzn (the controller swift uses with the tented design) because i wanted 1:ergonomics, 2:consistency, and 3:not having to deal the constant costs of having a normal conch (repairs, mods, replacements etc.) Also i think Ptas mains luigi (it seems community members who arent players are more likely to play stranger characters)
You know I'm not a big melee guy but I do watch sm64 speedruns, and they are very adamant in the ruleset about using original hardware and controllers for the run. If someone were to have any turbo or macro functionality it would be an immediate disqualification. In honesty in competition we cannot ban every single controller, because for any test you develop like "dashed to the cardinals instantly, def cheater", the controller modders will just make it slightly worse while still better than any gcn. Not to mention there are certain modifications which are undetectable (no I won't elaborate). So it actually makes me wonder if anybody developed custom contrllers for sm64 to maximize consistency for "amazing" speedruns, or if it was all actually done on original hardware with the exact inputs needed to ACTUALLY beat the game. Not some Z=A+(B 1 frame later) nonsense, 1 btn = 1 click, 1 axis=1 axis 1:1 mappings is what I mean. I mean, in chess, you may not cheat in any method of any program to do anything for you or give any information whatsoever. You may only play with the mouse and your mind. Similarly I don't see why melee and speedrunning shouldn't be the same way. The innovations don't happen on the controller side, innovations only come from deep insight into the game, careful study and practice of positions, highly technical training material, highly efficient time spent studying and competing, etc. Not on "Lol I bought the latest s#xyPhob3.1 that gives fox a random ledgedash option that yes is completely random and different every time, but only a few frames off from perfection and sometimes you will "crit" AKA get that perfect ledge dash. These are the kinds of things that naturally arise once you have the ability for 1 btn on your controller to input a ledge dash. You start to think how can I conceal this. This is not and never was the direction for us to go. The only way is through standard GCN and like I said just play the game on an even ground (It's different though if you're disabled you should be allowed any&every controller imo). If your opponent is cheating through b0xx or some other controller nonsense, of course you may NOT pull out your cheats and cheat back. Would a chess player do that? No they would not. They would shake hands and move onto the next opponent. Why do you think you're better than every chess player? Why don't you have any integrity at all? These questions are not directed towards you but to the average cheating controller maximizer who is spending time developing macro systems and other ways to undetectably cheat, lag switch off their controller, control their sex toys with it, and all that other fucking nonsense. Sadly melee is making me realize that speedrunning for the last several years has been severely tainted in that I don't know what controller some runners are truly using. What if they developed sexyph0b controllers and then runners under them are competing against someone with a huge advantage? Truly saddening stuff
CV: I honestly think both PTAS and Nuckels are blatantly lying in most of what they're saying - most of what they said about mechanics, speeds wrt top players etc is just baseless or blatantly wrong. I think it's fine to want to create rules around novel controller types but you have to take an unbiased approach where instead of looking for proof to confirm your already pre-existing bias, just get fresh eyes on the question. I mean, they've been very publicly (& vocally) anti-b0xx style controllers so I think they're probably the worst people in the whole community to ask those questions to.
Super appreciate caller #2's question RE how the changes were developed. With due respect, I have always felt that the attitude towards controller changes of this ilk come across as "we know better, here are the rules", much in contrast to how grassroots melee and smash generally is. I understand that the intention is to make sure the game is fair, and I think that maximal transparency helps people (myself included) respond more openly to proposed rule changes. Speaking for myself, having the changes be informed by anonymous "good players" is not satisfactory, I would very much like to know how many people contributed, to allow myself and the community to be more confidence in proposed changes.
Most people don't even necessarily care about the reason for specific rules, its that the vibe of a Melee Elite running things in the dark isn't an appealing idea. The method of 'Here is a 100 page document detailing everything' was a revolutionary method, not only was it transparent and not darkroomy, it didn't need to engage with people who didn't understand certain things, because you can just go 'read the doc'. It did not educate the populace about anything, but that isn't the most important thing.
you guys make great points. Right now with slippi we have that the elite are the ruling class of melee. Fizzi allows only an elite circle of people have access to any ranked game .slp played for analysis, and controls a decent amount of the competitive scene. I can tell you right now I have my own controller I've developed and tuned to work well with melee, and it is undetectable in every way they mentioned here with the "replay checker", and I'm sure that my controller is stronger than what they would be giving out. It's funny how the "good" players want to limit people's controllers because they won't be able to guaranteed beat you otherwise. Anyway Melee for a long time has needed someone to decentralize the competitive platform but nobody is rising to the occasion to actually do it, mostly because other jobs are far more important. But it's sad when I think back to this community, I don't like the direction you guys are headed with this firmware tyranny.
@@snared_ I appreciate the original commenters point about transparency, and I don't have much to say one way or the other on the fairness or practicality of the proposed rules. But to your point, I really do not think it's tyrannical in any way to propose these changes. As far as I can tell (admittedly as someone who is only a spectator) this is a proposal by people who have established good will through long term commitment and work in a community paralyzed by passionate disagreement. If its adopted across the board it'll be because of precedent and compromise among disparate TOs. No shade, but it's odd to me that your complaint is that the scene needs to be decentralized, when it seems so much of the time people complain about the very opposite thing. That being said, I get being frustrated by the politics of it. In that way it's similar to other kinds of grassroots organization. It's ugly, and you can't make everyone happy
I was a tester. I felt they did not take feedback very well and were seeking justifications for the conclusions that they already had arrived at. Many valid concerns were stonewalled without much justification. We were less there for “feedback” and more there for glitch hunting
@snared_ This comment makes no sense. You sound like Dale from King of the Hill.
If you have the magic bullet controller that is simultaneously better than everyone else's and also can't be traced, why are you mad?
Who's "job" would it be to decentralize melee, and what would that look like for rankings, major organization etc.? Wouldn't that person then become the Tyrant?
dude all this work to add RNG to controllers and make box players have to relearn SOCD for no reason
1.03 was made with a ton of hard work in an attempt to bring gcc UP to box level and people just dismissed it and now are trying to bring down all controllers and add RNG variance to a game that values consistency
CV :I played on a standard GCC for 3 years with a very non ergonomic permanent claw grip. After I developed chronic tendonitis, I switched to an LBX because it allows me to play for up to an hour without pain. A lot of the changes seem pretty reasonable so I'm excited to try them out when they get implemented on Haybox.
Didn't Nintendo "ban" any 3rd party controllers? Or is it just you have these "elite few" in melee who think they know better than us who develop our own firmware to use a specific version they made? So you might be allowed to use LBX if you let them choose your firmware? Tyranny but whatever.
I feel that there should be more conversations on the philosophy of controller rules. There seemed to be a clear bias in this conversation towards hostility of box controllers.
I feel that a lot of these proposed are based on this philosophy that all controllers should be as identical to a gamecube controller as possible. Artificially restricting/nerfing a digital box controller to be like an analogue GCC feels unnatural.
Digital box controllers are already designed to approach what an analogue GCC is supposed to do. These changes are meant to make that gap even smaller.
Pretty much all these issues come from the digitisation of movement. If it's about ergonomics, we should push for a rectangle controller with an analog stick, like the Alt Lab Smash Stick. But the limited backing for it suggests more people are motivated by the game-changing advantages of digital movement.
This! I don't get why nobody acknowledges this problem. (digitisation of analogue inputs) It's THE reason we're having this nerfing discussion in the first place. To which there is no good solution, it'll always be either over-nerfed, or not enough.
I'm not sure about the whole ergonomics thing, I do kinda feel though like that argument gets used too often to shut-down ban/nerf discussions.
The point of moving away from sticks is because of thumb RSI.
I personally can't stand sticks anymore, but regardless, I'm never going to tournaments anymore. I'm pretty sick of the anti-box people in the smash community, and honestly, I don't want to be part of a community that will judge me simply because I can't play on GameCube controller anymore
@@random_bitthe analog stick on the alt lab stick is an adapted arcade stick, so would not affect thumb RSI. Possibly wrist? But you could equally get finger RSI from tapping buttons... And an upright hand position is better for your wrist/elbow.
I'm glad we have other controller options so that people with hand issues are still able to play. But it's worth acknowledging that using digital buttons for movement brings objective advantages.
@@derranga acknowledge advantage is not the same as berating and ridiculing people for not being able to use a specific controller.
@@random_bit True, that kind of behaviour is not appropriate. Like I said, I'm glad we have controller options! I'm just trying to push for even more options (not just GC and BOXX) that bring the community together.
Pro tip to the guys: grinning when Toph mentions that B0xx players have concerns is not the image you want to be putting out there.
why is that
Bro hasn't played since 2019 and is trying to lay the law on controllers
i personally hate the idea of using RNG for the sake of equalizing controllers, cant ucf just make every controller work perfectly?😭
He's not the only person on the team and they were testing/consulting with over 100 people
@@vanillafella4893"perfect" is subjective. There are certain techniques that require specific coordinates. These are impossible to consistently hit even with notches, but are trivial on a digital controller. Such techniques would be box only unless we allow analog inputs to clamp to custom coordinates. This would make previously banned controllers like Arduinos and goomwaves the norm. Either we just don't have rules and your controller can do whatever or enforcement becomes a nightmare. Melee would be one big controller arms race.
The RNG in the new guidelines can shift an intended input 1 unit (1/160th of the diameter of a controller) vertically and horizontally (excluding cardinals which can always be 1.0). Overall, this helps box players because the rules can now be more lax on restricted modifiers since you can't exploit coordinate specific techniques.
Overall I think the RNG applied here is in the best interest of competitors today. Perhaps if there are significant advancements it will need to be revisited.
Wouldn't time travel prevent boxx users from performing " the goomy zoomy" , which is a technique possible on gcc. Then it should be possible on box too, no? The inputsare right left right,one frame after another
CV: I play on a PHOB (2.05) GCC as of one week ago! Prior to that, I used a stock GCC for countless years. My reason for upgrading was a desire for maximal control & C stick consistency from both digital snap back reduction and re-calibration functionality. My old stock controller was well used, and had some reliability issues that were holding back my execution. No more controller Johns! :')
Im a little disappointed to find out PTAS isnt a Falco uptilt hitbox in real life :/
CV: I play on a vanilla GCC. It's pretty ass according to me and everybody I know who has tried it but I think it's mostly because I SDI and moonwalk like a maniac lmao.
I would assume PTAS uses a very swell OEM controller.
CV: I play on laptop with a keyboard, and have done so for the entirety of my playing days so far. Hope to get a boxx though sometime soon.
CV: I use a completely vanilla ultimate gamecube controller, but the most interesting controller I've seen in bracket is a Ganon player with the tag ABE I saw at a local using an xbox one controller with a custom adapter he said he made himself and was lagless. I remember seeing him on anthers way back in the day too so I think he's been using it for a long time.
CV2: I think PTAS is a Pikachu player, I don't have any evidence or reason behind it, just vibes
I play on a standard GCC with barely any rubber on the analog stick. I absolutely despise the inconsistency on my analog and c stick but I'm way too lazy to do much about it. I've often considered swapping to a b0xx style controller but for now I cba. Mostly I would be looking for more consistency so I can more easily determine whether it's me or the controller that is causing unexpected things in my gameplay. I would love to see more ufc changes to allow players with basic GCC controllers to not get accidental back throws, missed dash dances or tapjumps etc. A fair and even playing field should be the future for this game without forcing people to be engineers or big spenders to keep up
a standard gcc will never miss a dash dance nor tap jump. I would recommend you open your controller in an input viewer and verify that there's no dead spots in your analog. One other explanation might be that you are only holding tap jump for less than 1/60th of a second, which would then become polling RNG.
CV: I play on my laptop keyboard with no added software, just default slippi controls and some very specific values for anything analogue, as by default you only get 8 angles and a modifier key to work with.
for anyone interested in the specifics of my very specific values for analogue stuff, I have the radius set to 83%, as that is required to get all of the whacky following stuff to work properly (you can get stuff to work for other radius values but it fucks with other stuff), I have modifier set to halve the value, like normal, and left and right both set to the 100% of the normal values. down however, is set to 104% of the normal value, as that is the amount at which pressing down and modifier gets you a shield drop for radius 83, and up set to 70% the normal value, as that way I can press both down and up at the same time to get a very slight downwards value, such that I can press down up and right or left to get a reasonable wave dash angle (cause 45 degree wavedashes suck), and I then bound up and down and R to a single button that I use for wavedashing (I use wasd so I can't reasonable press up and down at the same time normally). amusingly this controller would be against the new ruleset were I to try to use it in tournaments, despite being way worse than the vast majority of controllers (on account of only having 20 possible analogue values that I can hit, with a decent number of those being kinda useless), because I physically can't add a travel time nerf or coordinate fuzzing or anything. that said, it's not like I could enter tournaments with this aside from I suppose online tournies, which I'm not doing anyway. I'm generally a big fan of the new rules for controllers though, my goofy ass setup is obviously not something that should really be considered when making this kind of thing, and I think it'll be good for the community (also I backed the glyph kickstarter so I will be able to play the game on a legal controller fairly soon lol)
Wow, the delay between PTas' audio and video is painful. I would hate to netplay this guy.
I use a Xbox one controller on slippi, OEM GC when im with the homies on a console.
Community Voice: I use a standard gamecube controller with no modifications but I’m more of a tournament watcher than a player. But when I do enter it’s always just standard gamecube controllers.
Ptas ledgedash videos changed my life (and my ledgedashes).
I play on OEM (specifically smash 4 JP White).
I have some wrist pain (not diagnosed with anything they just kinda hurt), but it's unrelated to melee/gamecube controllers. I don't feel any extra pain when using a gamecube controller for a few hours.
I use a Phob 2.05 Gamecube controller, and I think PTAS' main is Sheik
I'm glad that all these cheaters cheesing their way into top 8 at majors are going to get nerfed. Can't stand how high level tournaments have become dominated by rectangles and all the top players are forced to swap to them or lose to some nobody.
I much prefer watching the legitimate underdogs use their natural controllers. Watching them wince from their hand pain while they struggle against their faulty mods that they gambled hundreds of dollars on is so much more satisfying and righteous.
who is cheesing top 8 at majors on box? dominated by rectangles? there are like 3 box players in the top 100
@@OrezOPThere was an enormous amount of sarcasm in my comment. For a controller so strong to be deemed "cheating" it is amazing to me that Zuppy, Pipsqueak, and Swift are the only ones that play it, and to mediocre success at best (they aren't dominating after picking it up).
Also, crazy how there was a 75 minute discussion and the legality of the $500 mods professionals use on their controllers wasn't mentioned. Oh, because "Melee was designed" to have capacitors, redeveloped software, notches, remapped controls, shortened triggers, and altered buttons but having a rectangle is some Frankstein's monster shit 😂
Toph's going to SoCal? The return to Verdugo?
I personally don't feel much of a difference from the changes, the only exception being neutral SOCD means I will no longer play Samus. Superwavedashing goes from slightly easier than on a OEM to literally twice as hard since you have to let go of left and then press right on the same frame as apposed to 2ip with reac. I'm super down for everything else but I'm sad to not be able to do the thing that makes me like playing Samus so much.
did you have to cheat to be able to do that movement with samus though? Because if you didn't have to cheat to make that movement, why is it now not allowed? If you picked up an original copy of the game on gcc, can you execute a superwavedash as samus? Because if so, there is 0 reason to ban it through SOCD except for tyranny.
@@snared_ I don't quite understand the question? I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, but to clarify, I can superwavedash on a gamecube controller with pretty good accuracy, as well as on an oem with snapback and no real modding. on the former default socd, 2ipreac, I could get it a bit more consistently than on an oem, however, because I learned melee on a box I'm not sure if better gcc players can do it as consistently as me playing box. with neutral socd my consistency drops from about 50/50 to 1/80. it is way way harder. If I'm just misunderstanding your phrasing and you are on my side then sorry for the long explanation haha
@@rustypaperplate9085 Okay, thank you for clarifying! Asking to double check, and wow. So that means that they are nerfing the game PAST the point that we all experienced with standard setups even back in the day. Soo that's a really bad change then! Hope they revert it soon. Even though I am against having a firmware standardization overall, absolutely the original standard gcn deserves no nerfs whatsoever, it's absolutely ridiculous for that to get nerfed meanwhile we have (random 0.98-1.00)x cardinal snapping flying undetected unlike straight 1.00x mods..
@@snared_ yeah no problem! Although to be honest, Im not sure if there is a better solution if they are just going of of raw box nerfs. In my opinion I agree that the top 10 characters are fairly balanced after the new firmware, especially fox falco and marth, i just wish this specific thing wasnt effected in the character i play. personally i am in favor for SOME of the 1.03 changes to bring gcc up to the level of box controllers as apposed to bringing boxx down, especially since we already have ucf in like every tournament in the country. A mix between some box nerfs and slight gcc buffs would be my vote, but on the other hand, the box being nerfed makes me feel a bit better about being a box player, like i dont have to capitulate every time i get on the setup. im in two minds about it.
I don't want this to come across as too negative, but I feel like Toph interrupted quite a lot in this podcast. Sometimes people need to explain som stuff to lay a framework of understanding for the listener before actually concluding with their answer. It seems this got interrupted a few times here.
I don't know if it's because of a delay in the call or something or because the connection was bad at times, but it seemed as though they were still talked over a lot.
CV: I use a stock OEM GCC. I don't hold no truck with those digital-slinging, b0xx-spitting, keyboard-wielding, Sanwa/Seimitsu stinging, Arduino-pinging, PCB-flinging pansies that need some godforsaken ghost in their controllers to wave their dash. I prefer my plain-Jane controllers au naturale, just like the good 'ole Lord and pappy Sakurai intended.
Also, PTAS is a Samus main, 100%. Look at the Hugo beard on his face; it's a dead giveaway.
To answer ptas's question to the audience at the end. I've played melee since it came out and still use just an OEM GCC, the only mods for it I really like having are a snapback capacitor and a trigger plug on my L button. Ive had controllers in the past that had mechanical switches but truthfully think that's an over-hyped function that isn't necessary. I've probably owned at least 12 different controllers in this time.
CV: I play on keyboard with BOXX settings/firmware. Living in SEA, I found it difficult trying to find a GCC plus I'm more comfortable gaming on a keyboard in general. Haven't really played much Melee cuz life got busy, but mainly keep up with GG Melee and watching the big majors so I wonder how I'll have to update my keyboard settings when I play.
CV2: I think PTAS plays Falco :)
CV: In my first 1.5 years of playing I went through four controllers. Two shitty offbrand GCCs which each lasted about 2 months and two restored T3 GCCs from a "retro store". I frequently had to do "part transplants" to my current controller. Eventually though all four developed potentiometer and/or motherboard problems. Now I'm on a modded Sm4sh GCC (brand new from the modder). It has Springless L, Wavedash notches, a Snappback capacitor, tactile Z, and a nunchuck stick which I carried over from my frankenstein('s controller) (The rubber on all four previous controllers' sticks also quite literally wore and tore) In total the modded controller cost me CHF 135.- (USD 150.50) which I feel pretty good about. Greetings from Switzerland
CV: Been playing on an OEM gamecube controller with mods (snapback capacitor, reduced trigger spring) for like 3 years, standard gc controller before that. Wouldn't switch to a box unless I absolutely had to cuz I love these things too much
also PTAS def is a Peach main
CV: I use several vanilla controllers, all of them roughly at least 15 or more years old. One of them I'm pretty certain is the same one I got with my gamecube and a copy of Melee for christmas in 2001. I stopped playing videogames with any regularity in the 2010s. Once covid happened, I got into slippi through connecting with some old highschool buds online (one of them was one was an early TO), and fortunately all those controllers were still kicking around in a drawer. There's a vast range of quality between them and I've been wearing them down quickly (I honestly wonder if I'm being too rough on the sticks), so I tend to favor whichever one is in the best shape at any given time.
CV: OEM GCC with a half trigger plug and spring removed on the right trigger
ptas plays marth you dips
thanks for the mention ❤
CV: I use a Rana Digital built by davy!
what if I already wrote my own controller firmware to control melee with? What do you mean by "The legal version of the firmware".. I my own controller firmware which I tuned to work well with Melee. So I can't use it? What about every other speedrun where controllers are not checked?
If your firmware isn't compliant it would presumably be banned, other games and speed runs don't factor into the conversation beyond the anecdotal evidence that comes from other communities decisions
@@Emphetic Some people are happy to wait and receive their controller from "the few allowed people to create them". I don't want to wait and I've done a better job anyway. There's different modes. God Fox all the way down to Scrub Fox. The controller race has been in full swing for the last year, and if you haven't developed your own shit yet you're simply far behind. Good luck detecting my controller firmware btw, I don't stick to +1 and -1 cardinals nor do "the same" SDI patterns off a single button press. Noise is necessary to incorporate to provide benefit of the doubt. And yes I have incorporated stochastic travel times as well. Anyway my controller plugs directly into gamecube/wii/pc, and I'm surely not the only person who isn't happy to just wait for "the one smart guy" to design hardware for me. I'm happier to be that guy, not to wait on him, so anyway, have fun waiting on that smart guy to give you the controller that isn't nearly as good as mine! I'll be farming ranked slippi while you're waiting/complaining!
@@snared_ shits open source it isn't restricted who can make them, quality varies and people charge too much tho I agree. That being said all I said was if it isn't compliant then it probs won't be allowed. I made it myself isn't really something they care about, they even said if you make it it just has to be on a site so they can get a copy to verify it's legitimate.
To the other section, not sure where you got it from but my first comment but it was not meant to come off as unfriendly, just to respond to your question. I make controllers and everything is open source so I just use that software. I am in no way complaining, just tried to answer your question
@@Emphetic what do you mean by "Compliant"? This is what I mean by Tyranny - unable to play without the proper "papers" validation check. It's a force that can be used to shut a player down arbitrarily while historically allowing unchecked controllers for the current top players.. If someone is able to buy melee, rip the iso themselves, begin working, grind at home against machines/ai they built that go from scrub to TAS level, and they show up to America to destroy any current player with their most comfortable controller that they built themselves over years, why exactly should we not let them do it? Current top competitors are financially incentivized to shut those kinds of people down and requiring the controller to be installed with normie firmware is just another way for TO's to make everyone play more of the same. It doesn't allow the person who is a stronger competitor and better to be on top when you stunt innovation. Then you'll have the people who say Okay I just won't compete in your "stunted controller category" meanwhile I'm going to continue grinding a more pure version of Melee that allows for increasingly powerful controller mechanisms. Now 20 years down the line, your controller firmwares are extremely out of date, you have to talk about how to move the community off whatever patch, blah blah. It's a never -ending process that literally nobody wants to correlate their success to. "Shitty firmware update now invalidates my edge over my opponent? I guess I won't succeed in melee anymore!" Not a single person in life would want to be subject to that. "standardizing" controller firmware is only a band-aid to a problem of much larger scale than is currently abused in game. Controllers could be much worse, for example, if the controller was processing feed from phone cam on a player's body to do a quick ML and potentially detect some on-screen situations for a "mode swap" or other functionality. Trust me that controllers can get far worse so trying to adopt a "standard" is only going to let people 10-20 years down the line absolutely dominate your entire category with their fancy controller techniques they've been mastering separately to your "stunted controller version of Melee" over the years.. Anyway, I'm not a melee competitor so my opinion on this matter is not correlated with my financial or otherwise success whatsoever, so just keep in mind I don't actually care too much about whether they impose firmware requirements, just that there will eventually be consequences in the form of future domination of the stunted category.
@@snared_ yeah it's chill to not compete but within competition the goal is to have the fewest outside factors affect someone's play. The prism is allowed because of comfort but having a button that does perfect ledgedashes isn't. Standard is there to avoid people having to go to "a select few". If controllers are open source or "Normie software" then anyone can make them leading to less bullshit. It's most definitely not "tyranny" and implying a secret cabal is attempting to gain control for financial means is definitely a take. Others can have other opinions but I think making sure software is available and follows clear rules can only make things cheaper and easier for the average player. It's great you can make a controller you are more happy with and if you aren't competing then it doesn't need to comply with shit but I think it's pretty objective that macros for specific functions such as ledgedashing or perfect waveshines limit the skill ceiling for players.
I think the ruleset is being made really specific to avoid tos struggling to enforce it.
A simple ruleset of "1-1 button and stick mapping" sums up most of it but then you get goomwaves altering values and people arguing it's 1-1 because it's a similar motion even if the values fix themselves for you. Imo it's about making sure that everyone is able to learn the game and get good with the same level of work, if I fuck up a top player when they can't jump and can only jab while I have macros to 0-death them then no-one is gonna give a shit that I won. Obviously hyperbole but still the same point. I could be wrong but to me it feels like you think this is sinister and I feel it's a legitimate attempt by a lot of people to make everything more equal and fair. Down to keep having this convo tho I really do enjoy talking about conchs so if there are points you disagree with feel free to point them out.
CV: unmodded gcc, luigi or samus
1:00:58 so something that doesnt happen on a GCC by being a technical player and having precise inputs is now inevitable on box due to.... chance? regardless of skill or technical ability mind you. all I'm saying is that I've never seen a top level GCC player do what he just described, and he's saying that it "might" happen to a boxx player no matter what. seems DOPE
there is no need for these changes they are adding more RNG with controllers we should be making every controller work the most consistent it can not adding more variance into the game
If you go back 10 seconds you'll hear him say this only happens if you input the up b too fast. There is no RNG in this situation. Learn the timing (the same timing as GCC) and you'll be consistent.
CV: i play on B0XX for a year after 6 years playing on OEM gamecube controllers that added a ton of inconsistency to the game
i worry these changes add more variance to controllers of any kind when 1.03 was well documented researched and brings gcc up to boxx level
Yes, I am also in favor of improving gcc vs nerfing box...take off the shackles so we can play cracked melee
I'm still playing a modified 1.03 on slippi, it's great. No, don't take that away from me.
Fuck yes
the travel time nerf is giga cringe. Neutral SOCD is just ridiculous and serves no real purpose but fucking over box player muscle memory.
travel time nerf is not cringe at all, the fact that another controller has less travel time is unfair
don't worry u still get the fastest possible travel time, all the time, with 100% consistency. U also have 100% free shield drops, dash back, crouch cancel while running, up tilts with no fear of jumping, no travel time on c stick, consistent wave dash length etc whereas gcc users gotta worry about maneuvering a slow ass stick around with imprecise values. All this consistency and literally impossible to miss tech eliminates a lot of variables
just sayin lol idk how it's fair
So happy to see efforts made against such a broken controller
@@samuwall bro not ever jumping out of a wavedash up tilt is f____ ridiculous. Boxx has always been cheater f0xx. Always was cheater f0xx, always will be cheater f0xx.
@@samuwallyou seem hurt well all of that is fixed for gcc on 1.03
CV: i play on The Prism made by Wunvzn (the controller swift uses with the tented design) because i wanted 1:ergonomics, 2:consistency, and 3:not having to deal the constant costs of having a normal conch (repairs, mods, replacements etc.)
Also i think Ptas mains luigi (it seems community members who arent players are more likely to play stranger characters)
You know I'm not a big melee guy but I do watch sm64 speedruns, and they are very adamant in the ruleset about using original hardware and controllers for the run. If someone were to have any turbo or macro functionality it would be an immediate disqualification. In honesty in competition we cannot ban every single controller, because for any test you develop like "dashed to the cardinals instantly, def cheater", the controller modders will just make it slightly worse while still better than any gcn. Not to mention there are certain modifications which are undetectable (no I won't elaborate). So it actually makes me wonder if anybody developed custom contrllers for sm64 to maximize consistency for "amazing" speedruns, or if it was all actually done on original hardware with the exact inputs needed to ACTUALLY beat the game. Not some Z=A+(B 1 frame later) nonsense, 1 btn = 1 click, 1 axis=1 axis 1:1 mappings is what I mean. I mean, in chess, you may not cheat in any method of any program to do anything for you or give any information whatsoever. You may only play with the mouse and your mind. Similarly I don't see why melee and speedrunning shouldn't be the same way. The innovations don't happen on the controller side, innovations only come from deep insight into the game, careful study and practice of positions, highly technical training material, highly efficient time spent studying and competing, etc. Not on "Lol I bought the latest s#xyPhob3.1 that gives fox a random ledgedash option that yes is completely random and different every time, but only a few frames off from perfection and sometimes you will "crit" AKA get that perfect ledge dash. These are the kinds of things that naturally arise once you have the ability for 1 btn on your controller to input a ledge dash. You start to think how can I conceal this. This is not and never was the direction for us to go. The only way is through standard GCN and like I said just play the game on an even ground (It's different though if you're disabled you should be allowed any&every controller imo). If your opponent is cheating through b0xx or some other controller nonsense, of course you may NOT pull out your cheats and cheat back. Would a chess player do that? No they would not. They would shake hands and move onto the next opponent. Why do you think you're better than every chess player? Why don't you have any integrity at all? These questions are not directed towards you but to the average cheating controller maximizer who is spending time developing macro systems and other ways to undetectably cheat, lag switch off their controller, control their sex toys with it, and all that other fucking nonsense. Sadly melee is making me realize that speedrunning for the last several years has been severely tainted in that I don't know what controller some runners are truly using. What if they developed sexyph0b controllers and then runners under them are competing against someone with a huge advantage? Truly saddening stuff
(I just play at the Silver1-2 level in Melee so take my opinion with a grain of salt)
Haha let's go vince
Ngl this is p cringe propeganda
Okay cheater box player
How so?
there's no way "p cringe" is the best thing you could come up with for "practical tas"
@@Chris-tn7hg lmfao
Actually Cheating and Boxx is duplicated in the same sentence.
CV: I honestly think both PTAS and Nuckels are blatantly lying in most of what they're saying - most of what they said about mechanics, speeds wrt top players etc is just baseless or blatantly wrong. I think it's fine to want to create rules around novel controller types but you have to take an unbiased approach where instead of looking for proof to confirm your already pre-existing bias, just get fresh eyes on the question. I mean, they've been very publicly (& vocally) anti-b0xx style controllers so I think they're probably the worst people in the whole community to ask those questions to.
ptas!! a hero of the community, stoked to hear this