With Heidi, we can take in account (on web and fb) that most maxed ones have cain as patronage. So that extra health is actually beneficial, raising bis survivability. 2 dodges and he's ulting. Add axel so everyone gets damage and he's just spamming ult
Given that Aidan doesn't have any skins, makes sense to give him one (assumed Kayla doesn't have any either, but don't actually have this hero). Is an interesting point about the energy gain and timing for the ultimate skill. With the auto-mode in Arena/Grand Arena, any advantage that can tip the battle in your favour could be beneficial.
Really good topic that isnt discussed enough imo! I guess every player went through this already - me recently when i had to buy Kharks last 2 ascension health buffs to get to the next ascension page ... and started losing to arena teams i beat before. Its btw also true for Armor and Magic Defense, b/c both mitigate incoming damage, which also reduces energy gain. It just doesnt apply to Dodge, as you explained, making Dodge the superior way to mitigate damage. Its also great that you show the full extend of this fundamental game mechanic. It not only annoys pretty much every player, when you weaken your team after developing your heroes. But here you refuse to fully gear up your Arachne ... skipping two items which are worth roughly 25k emeralds, which translates to roughly 20 USD on a x4 sale. This is the money the 'energy gain from incoming damage' mechanic costs Nexter. And you are just one single guy and only one of your heroes. So whenever you think why stuff in the game isnt really great, this example shows how unbelievably clueless the game designers seem to be. They put in a game mechanic that is absolutely counterproductive even to the game companies financial interest, not to mention the players negative feedback he gets from developing their heroes ...
Is there a good resource somewhere to see where to level up your hero health too? I'm worried about overleveling, but I have no idea at which point that kicks in. Underleveling is also bad afterall. Thank you.
Hey Charlie! Thumbs up for your channel, which is very interesting! Nonetheless, I have trouble following your logic here: 1. Mainly, why do you rate defense (armor & magic) higher than health in regards of energy gain? Defense also applies reduction to damage thus energy gain. And defenses tend to be less effective the more you improve them... 2. The improvement for energy gain with less health is very marginal In comparison of energy gained with each attack or competence used.... Unless you don't improve health at all on your hero ... But then, how effective a dead hero is? I don't want to sound too harsh on you, your vids helped me improve in this game!
I always thought that your heroes get energy from attacking too, not only from taking damage. And increasing the speed with Martha, Thea or Jhu means more ults too.
I think you have this theoratical advance only against a fully developed arachne but if somebody comes with an orange +4 arachne then that arachne will charge faster. this looks to me only the very end game problem when you face with fully developed opponents and maybe there you have some advance if you don't develop e.g. health or isaac's magic defense can be another example. Otherwise the stronger hero used to be more effective and will win no matter how you fine tune. Other example, I have jhu in hydra fight and while jhu was weaker, around 20k power, he ofc used his ult more often and then there was a time period indeed when he was less effective against the same hydra head but when I reached 40k power with more or less evenly developed skills and parameters then my jhu makes again big dmg against hydra head (elder), 1,5x more dmg then the top dmg when my jhu had 20k - so yes, the fine tuning can help a bit but this is only a temporary thing and maybe the end game problem as well. the pain is indeed that there is no option to reset anything except the gift of elements because nexters always mix the power rank of the heroes and such reset function would badly hurt their income when they force people to invest in new or other heroes and forget the old ones (and not to allow that players simply moves the resources from one not used hero to another one)
Arachne works just fine completely maxed out, and with Heidi his health is so low and he gets bonus energy from Cain so I think the extra health will be beneficial for him just like it is for Dante.
Low HP Arachne is better as a lead to Ult before Sebastian. On the other hand, Charlies Arachne don't survive either a Crit or nebula boost Dante spear, while a maxed Arachne does (cant survive crit AND boost tough)
Mention also that too much health is bad in the Storm events. Storm damage is a percentage of max health per second. The higher max health is, then the more health is lost per second. So healers must provide more health to keep a high max health hero alive.
Axel Patronage Skill Violet: Defensive Blub! Axel protects the owner from powerful attacks. Damage from a single attack cannot exceed 45 (−0.226% Patronage Power + 70)% of a hero's maximum health
There is only one answer to the health issue. Leave it until last. Once you are approaching endgame then give more health to those heroes that consistently die too quickly until you feel that you have tweaked it just right. Regarding Arachne. It depends on how you are going to use her. You have to take into account where she is positioned because your Arachne with less health might not ult first if she is sitting 2nd behind Aurora or 3rd behind Aurora/Maya and the enemy Aurora is the tank and much more exposed to lethal attacks early in the encounter. In this scenario the amount of starting health will not be the deciding factor in who ults first. My Arachne now used in 3rd position mostly is like a secondary tank if the front pair fail and she has won many battles for me in the second half of the fight with Martha and Polaris behind her. She is currently 208767 health. I don't know if that is a lot.
Does this problem also apply to leveling up Armor too high since this will mean taking less damage and therefore losing a smaller percentage of health ?
Nexters really need to rework some of these mechanics. Players shouldn't be penalized for "overdeveloping" a hero. It makes no sense that head-to-head a lesser developed hero is better than the same, more developed hero. While you want to have some way for lower power teams to beat higher power teams, that should be the result of effectively using synergies to their fullest extent, as this is the skill portion of the game. Let Arachne 150K be greater than Arachne 145K. Then have it be that the player with the 145K Arachne pair her with 4 other heroes and pets that through synergy give them a chance to win.
Would you say that the principle applies to Aurora with Cain as well? Or is it the case here that she (as a tank) is generally targeted often enough that her speed is always fast and extra HP allows her to survive longer?
While I completely understand the idea of less health = more ult, can’t you achieve the same result by keeping armor and/or mag defense lower? I’ve made this argument before and haven’t got a good explanation as to why it HAS to be health that is kept lower.
What hero doesn't have the potential to be one of the best heroes in the game? FB/web does have at least one example of limited time only skins with the beach skins for LIa, Kai, and Cleaver. Kayla remainders me a bit of Colette Brunel from Tales of Symphonia, she also uses Chakram
Kalya stays in the enemy field doing damage until she reached 25% of health then she jumps back. More health = more time doing damage. Its an awesome skin for her.
Heidi already has a dodge skin and 2 magic attack skins so there was no chance at all he would have gotten another one of either. And god bless to the guy in the background who talked crap on heidi in the background. What a terrible take
Even with the skin, Heidi will still have one of the lowest levels of health, but he will be less vulnerable than he is now, so there's no need to worry about this skin.
Not really. And the comparation of health with Jörgen or Martha who are last line huge health creatures that must ultimate, is absolutely not relevant with Heidi, who stays more in front, is damage dealer and , put your attention on that,can be one shot killed by Dante or iris plus Sebastian. For Heidi and Keyla that skins are good. Could be better,but are definately something they need. Heidi has so lil health that every hit can charge him, to let him die to get better charged, or?
Boosted Dantes can one shot (or two shot) high health heroes anyway. Heidi's health will never be high enough to save him on his own if he gets hit more than once, hence his dodge (and associated bonus energy) helping to mitigate that. Plus, never forget: Every hero can be countered, every combo can be beaten, no matter what you do.
Level up heath skin - take less % total health - less energy gain Level up defense skin - also take less % total health - less energy gain => similar ??? Health skin is better against pure dam, and defense skin is better against physhical or magical dam For me, level up skin that fit your individual heroes. For example, Heidi level up health skin is better against Corvus, with Dorian buff he can survive enough time to regen health.
wait... you said health on Kayla is a bad thing? she's in front of the tank -sure she links with Aidan, or you could use Cain or Axel: but if you don't use any of them then she's getting hit heavily by everybody.
Kayla desperately needs that health. She Ults like crazy anyway being in the middle of their team doing AE attacks AND taking hits from everyone. Her problem is she dies way to fast. If she stays up long enough in the middle of their team, they will die a lot faster. It's EXACTLY what she needed. Also it takes a little time from when she jumps over until all her attacks are going at once. Really, she jumps a tad to early and often dies before she really gets rolling. Dead Kayla = no damage, no Ults, waste of space. For once, The devs got it right >
If there are strategies like this HW team shoul provide us downgrade tools, for skins and items... Maby recover a percentage of it as emeralds or something usefuul. Even better, give me the posibility to dismantle items or skins from my heroes, for a fee (so you don't keep swapping them) like 200 emeralds for violet, 500 for yelow and 1000 emeralds to dismantle a red item. I didn't know about this strategy, i invested everithyng to max a team, and now I can't do enithing about it...
People feel that if she has less health that she'll ult more. She's barely hit in battles anyways because of her position. Keep her defense stats low and she'll ult more. I increase her health and ignore her defense stats for now
What you're saying is very misleading. There is a conbcept of a sweet spot and it varies depending on what you're facing on your server. If you underlevel your arachne/jorgen health and you face maxed Dante he will one shot you. As it stands now Heide is so fragile he can die off 1 Dante's or Karkh's ult hit, even if you max his health, so in fact more health will only benefit him here. Ofcourse you can argue it's hard to hit Heide, but WHEN it lands, he just dies. What it means is that you will now have to find a sweet spot value for Haide's dealth, so he isn't getting oneshot, but not too much, so he's charging too slow. In a nutshell you'll have to levle his skin to some level, but not max.
This Is exactly what I was gonna say and that there are 4 others besides the enemies tank that can hit you and if you get too low and loose your tank it can be really be hard to come back from a 4 on 5 situation so I would definitely agree to look for a sweet spot and not put nothing in to health
@@HeroWarsCentral In our guild we have a simple rule, if you can't reliably win considering all the dodge nonsense that might happen, you don't attack, as simple as that. There are exceptions for very hard fights, like 63% shooting range for instance, or 210% refinery, but still that rule stands. So if you go Heide vs Dante and you lose 20% of the fights because Heide didn't dodge, it's a no go. That's how we treat dodge and that's why we are the king of the russian CoW hill (latest season). And yes, we actually sometimes test one fight for 50-100 times :D
So.. basically a bunch of rambling useless information. I need a list of people who not to give health to like martha and celeste. Not some babbling nonsense about heidi.
@@HeroWarsCentral that does not address the question or answer for us average person on who to give health to or not. I appreciate what you do and respect it. But guy 9 to 5 every day doesn't have the time to invest in this coming home to wife and kids. I've been in the same clan for two years now, silver league, and still do not have the time to study freaking fake boob job characters to study their powers. Why I was asking someone like you if you could put a list out of who not to give health too. So when I spend an hour on this game... I can go click click click and go hang out with the wife.
@@spinny2593 "rambling useless info" "babbling nonsense" in general you get people doing nice things if you do nice things in return or have been nice.
@@2drealms196 Agreed. So are you saying that I need to wait for my paycheck from youtube or hero wars to be nice? I thought I was being nice for the question that small time players have. Guess I was wrong.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
If Heidi keeps doing that thing to the snake, he will go blind.
With Heidi, we can take in account (on web and fb) that most maxed ones have cain as patronage. So that extra health is actually beneficial, raising bis survivability. 2 dodges and he's ulting. Add axel so everyone gets damage and he's just spamming ult
can't always use Cain, but sure.
True. Health not only bad for heroes, but also for player. Your wallet health 😊
Given that Aidan doesn't have any skins, makes sense to give him one (assumed Kayla doesn't have any either, but don't actually have this hero). Is an interesting point about the energy gain and timing for the ultimate skill. With the auto-mode in Arena/Grand Arena, any advantage that can tip the battle in your favour could be beneficial.
Really good topic that isnt discussed enough imo! I guess every player went through this already - me recently when i had to buy Kharks last 2 ascension health buffs to get to the next ascension page ... and started losing to arena teams i beat before. Its btw also true for Armor and Magic Defense, b/c both mitigate incoming damage, which also reduces energy gain. It just doesnt apply to Dodge, as you explained, making Dodge the superior way to mitigate damage.
Its also great that you show the full extend of this fundamental game mechanic. It not only annoys pretty much every player, when you weaken your team after developing your heroes. But here you refuse to fully gear up your Arachne ... skipping two items which are worth roughly 25k emeralds, which translates to roughly 20 USD on a x4 sale. This is the money the 'energy gain from incoming damage' mechanic costs Nexter. And you are just one single guy and only one of your heroes.
So whenever you think why stuff in the game isnt really great, this example shows how unbelievably clueless the game designers seem to be. They put in a game mechanic that is absolutely counterproductive even to the game companies financial interest, not to mention the players negative feedback he gets from developing their heroes ...
true, but this is part of the game and it makes it interesting
Is there a good resource somewhere to see where to level up your hero health too? I'm worried about overleveling, but I have no idea at which point that kicks in. Underleveling is also bad afterall. Thank you.
Hey Charlie!
Thumbs up for your channel, which is very interesting!
Nonetheless, I have trouble following your logic here:
1. Mainly, why do you rate defense (armor & magic) higher than health in regards of energy gain? Defense also applies reduction to damage thus energy gain. And defenses tend to be less effective the more you improve them...
2. The improvement for energy gain with less health is very marginal In comparison of energy gained with each attack or competence used.... Unless you don't improve health at all on your hero ... But then, how effective a dead hero is?
I don't want to sound too harsh on you, your vids helped me improve in this game!
I always thought that your heroes get energy from attacking too, not only from taking damage. And increasing the speed with Martha, Thea or Jhu means more ults too.
I think you have this theoratical advance only against a fully developed arachne but if somebody comes with an orange +4 arachne then that arachne will charge faster. this looks to me only the very end game problem when you face with fully developed opponents and maybe there you have some advance if you don't develop e.g. health or isaac's magic defense can be another example. Otherwise the stronger hero used to be more effective and will win no matter how you fine tune. Other example, I have jhu in hydra fight and while jhu was weaker, around 20k power, he ofc used his ult more often and then there was a time period indeed when he was less effective against the same hydra head but when I reached 40k power with more or less evenly developed skills and parameters then my jhu makes again big dmg against hydra head (elder), 1,5x more dmg then the top dmg when my jhu had 20k - so yes, the fine tuning can help a bit but this is only a temporary thing and maybe the end game problem as well. the pain is indeed that there is no option to reset anything except the gift of elements because nexters always mix the power rank of the heroes and such reset function would badly hurt their income when they force people to invest in new or other heroes and forget the old ones (and not to allow that players simply moves the resources from one not used hero to another one)
There is a point that a hero is "too" low, orange +4 vs a red +2 the O4 arachne would easily die to other heroes before she could ult.
stat site says 224K health for max Heidi without the skin, so -331K total health with the new skin maxed
how does low health help if you keep get one shotted
Choose your opponents wisely. . .
Arachne works just fine completely maxed out, and with Heidi his health is so low and he gets bonus energy from Cain so I think the extra health will be beneficial for him just like it is for Dante.
common mistake, in a mirror match my arachne would beat your arachne.
Low HP Arachne is better as a lead to Ult before Sebastian. On the other hand, Charlies Arachne don't survive either a Crit or nebula boost Dante spear, while a maxed Arachne does (cant survive crit AND boost tough)
Mention also that too much health is bad in the Storm events. Storm damage is a percentage of max health per second. The higher max health is, then the more health is lost per second. So healers must provide more health to keep a high max health hero alive.
Damm, dats to much health
The one problem I run into is so many super-charged dantes that one-shot my damage dealers. I need health to survive long enough to DO damage.
Axel Patronage Skill Violet: Defensive Blub!
Axel protects the owner from powerful attacks.
Damage from a single attack cannot exceed 45 (−0.226% Patronage Power + 70)% of a hero's maximum health
There is only one answer to the health issue. Leave it until last. Once you are approaching endgame then give more health to those heroes that consistently die too quickly until you feel that you have tweaked it just right.
Regarding Arachne. It depends on how you are going to use her. You have to take into account where she is positioned because your Arachne with less health might not ult first if she is sitting 2nd behind Aurora or 3rd behind Aurora/Maya and the enemy Aurora is the tank and much more exposed to lethal attacks early in the encounter.
In this scenario the amount of starting health will not be the deciding factor in who ults first. My Arachne now used in 3rd position mostly is like a secondary tank if the front pair fail and she has won many battles for me in the second half of the fight with Martha and Polaris behind her. She is currently 208767 health. I don't know if that is a lot.
Does this problem also apply to leveling up Armor too high since this will mean taking less damage and therefore losing a smaller percentage of health ?
Nexters really need to rework some of these mechanics. Players shouldn't be penalized for "overdeveloping" a hero. It makes no sense that head-to-head a lesser developed hero is better than the same, more developed hero.
While you want to have some way for lower power teams to beat higher power teams, that should be the result of effectively using synergies to their fullest extent, as this is the skill portion of the game. Let Arachne 150K be greater than Arachne 145K. Then have it be that the player with the 145K Arachne pair her with 4 other heroes and pets that through synergy give them a chance to win.
I think there is a sweet spot. Your Arachne cant be used as a tank, cause it is koed with basic attacks before ulting
Wait, does this count for titans too or only for heroes?
I use Cain patron on Heidi, so health skin doesn't slow down charging energy
Wat is cain sir?
@@cocomelon498 One of the patron pets which you can get by joining a guild.
Would you say that the principle applies to Aurora with Cain as well? Or is it the case here that she (as a tank) is generally targeted often enough that her speed is always fast and extra HP allows her to survive longer?
Aurora as a tank it’s less of an issue but it still exists. The energy gain system is broken.
While I completely understand the idea of less health = more ult, can’t you achieve the same result by keeping armor and/or mag defense lower? I’ve made this argument before and haven’t got a good explanation as to why it HAS to be health that is kept lower.
What hero doesn't have the potential to be one of the best heroes in the game?
FB/web does have at least one example of limited time only skins with the beach skins for LIa, Kai, and Cleaver.
Kayla remainders me a bit of Colette Brunel from Tales of Symphonia, she also uses Chakram
Good info! Do you think Cascade is worth it on Mobile? I’m interested, but not quite impressed yet? He seems like he has great potential though!
Is this a Web/FB thing or a mobile thing or are all platforms effected by this?
Kalya stays in the enemy field doing damage until she reached 25% of health then she jumps back. More health = more time doing damage. Its an awesome skin for her.
I agree!
She is an exception, but for many heros, more health is detrimental
Heidi already has a dodge skin and 2 magic attack skins so there was no chance at all he would have gotten another one of either.
And god bless to the guy in the background who talked crap on heidi in the background. What a terrible take
lol I left that in there intentionally
a lot of the healers like martha rely on ults to be good. for them i never max health, just raise it enough to where they dont die first and done.
Or raise her health a lot and on defense she doesn't die
kayla health is actually kinda decent, but i'd much prefer MD/Armor and will definitely wait for other skins if i ever use her as a main DD
Even with the skin, Heidi will still have one of the lowest levels of health, but he will be less vulnerable than he is now, so there's no need to worry about this skin.
Not really. And the comparation of health with Jörgen or Martha who are last line huge health creatures that must ultimate, is absolutely not relevant with Heidi, who stays more in front, is damage dealer and , put your attention on that,can be one shot killed by Dante or iris plus Sebastian.
For Heidi and Keyla that skins are good. Could be better,but are definately something they need. Heidi has so lil health that every hit can charge him, to let him die to get better charged, or?
Boosted Dantes can one shot (or two shot) high health heroes anyway. Heidi's health will never be high enough to save him on his own if he gets hit more than once, hence his dodge (and associated bonus energy) helping to mitigate that.
Plus, never forget: Every hero can be countered, every combo can be beaten, no matter what you do.
Heidi is in the discussion because he’s the one getting the skin.
Level up heath skin - take less % total health - less energy gain
Level up defense skin - also take less % total health - less energy gain => similar ???
Health skin is better against pure dam, and defense skin is better against physhical or magical dam
For me, level up skin that fit your individual heroes. For example, Heidi level up health skin is better against Corvus, with Dorian buff he can survive enough time to regen health.
wait... you said health on Kayla is a bad thing? she's in front of the tank -sure she links with Aidan, or you could use Cain or Axel: but if you don't use any of them then she's getting hit heavily by everybody.
Kayla desperately needs that health. She Ults like crazy anyway being in the middle of their team doing AE attacks AND taking hits from everyone. Her problem is she dies way to fast. If she stays up long enough in the middle of their team, they will die a lot faster. It's EXACTLY what she needed. Also it takes a little time from when she jumps over until all her attacks are going at once. Really, she jumps a tad to early and often dies before she really gets rolling. Dead Kayla = no damage, no Ults, waste of space. For once, The devs got it right >
If there are strategies like this HW team shoul provide us downgrade tools, for skins and items... Maby recover a percentage of it as emeralds or something usefuul. Even better, give me the posibility to dismantle items or skins from my heroes, for a fee (so you don't keep swapping them) like 200 emeralds for violet, 500 for yelow and 1000 emeralds to dismantle a red item. I didn't know about this strategy, i invested everithyng to max a team, and now I can't do enithing about it...
Niche except that Ish can now do that too
Thx Charlie
thanks
why is health on Martha a bad thing -more health = more healing
People feel that if she has less health that she'll ult more. She's barely hit in battles anyways because of her position. Keep her defense stats low and she'll ult more. I increase her health and ignore her defense stats for now
Of course the game programmers make too much health a bad thing!!
What you're saying is very misleading. There is a conbcept of a sweet spot and it varies depending on what you're facing on your server. If you underlevel your arachne/jorgen health and you face maxed Dante he will one shot you. As it stands now Heide is so fragile he can die off 1 Dante's or Karkh's ult hit, even if you max his health, so in fact more health will only benefit him here. Ofcourse you can argue it's hard to hit Heide, but WHEN it lands, he just dies. What it means is that you will now have to find a sweet spot value for Haide's dealth, so he isn't getting oneshot, but not too much, so he's charging too slow. In a nutshell you'll have to levle his skin to some level, but not max.
I think this is what he is saying....
Dante can die off of one of K’arkhs ults, but dodge exists.
Good thing it takes me forever to level a skin, will raise Kayla veerrryyyy slow. Thank you all for the information.
This Is exactly what I was gonna say and that there are 4 others besides the enemies tank that can hit you and if you get too low and loose your tank it can be really be hard to come back from a 4 on 5 situation so I would definitely agree to look for a sweet spot and not put nothing in to health
@@HeroWarsCentral In our guild we have a simple rule, if you can't reliably win considering all the dodge nonsense that might happen, you don't attack, as simple as that. There are exceptions for very hard fights, like 63% shooting range for instance, or 210% refinery, but still that rule stands. So if you go Heide vs Dante and you lose 20% of the fights because Heide didn't dodge, it's a no go. That's how we treat dodge and that's why we are the king of the russian CoW hill (latest season). And yes, we actually sometimes test one fight for 50-100 times :D
No one will level those health skins
I hoped for penetration skins. 😪
I dont
Like these
Skins
So.. basically a bunch of rambling useless information. I need a list of people who not to give health to like martha and celeste. Not some babbling nonsense about heidi.
Heidi is getting a new skin, Martha and Celeste aren’t 🤷🏻♂️
@@HeroWarsCentral that does not address the question or answer for us average person on who to give health to or not. I appreciate what you do and respect it. But guy 9 to 5 every day doesn't have the time to invest in this coming home to wife and kids. I've been in the same clan for two years now, silver league, and still do not have the time to study freaking fake boob job characters to study their powers. Why I was asking someone like you if you could put a list out of who not to give health too. So when I spend an hour on this game... I can go click click click and go hang out with the wife.
@@HeroWarsCentral I do like the response. Thank you.
@@spinny2593 "rambling useless info" "babbling nonsense" in general you get people doing nice things if you do nice things in return or have been nice.
@@2drealms196 Agreed. So are you saying that I need to wait for my paycheck from youtube or hero wars to be nice? I thought I was being nice for the question that small time players have. Guess I was wrong.