Thank you for taking the time to post this Peter. The 1200 grit blocking can't be argued. With a low crown panel like a door skin, one might be able to get away with using the flat dies. For polished high crown panels, it seems imperative to use full radius or you will be forced to sand heavily to remove the flats. I purchased your DVD's many years ago and they helped me quite a lot.
Relatively new to metal shaping and by sheer dumb luck my first good set of anvils [from Hoosier Profiles] is full radius! Thank you very much for the insights and expertise Peter!
I wish I'd had this video ten years ago when I bought my flat anvils from our friend who's no longer in business. I gave them to Jim H. when I got sick (you may recall) and he's never used them. Hoping you can make it back to Belfast Tennessee one of these days, Peter.
Very informative video Peter. It has always puzzled me why people would want flats on a lower wheel, and you addressed both scenarios where I would see a possible use: long aircraft skins with little shape, and work an edge for a reverse curve. I guess relatively flat door skins might also be a use. But like you say: 90% of the time it’s full radius. Excellent work, you are one of the greats for sure. Regards from England. Matt Keene 👍
Thank you Matt from Australia , and remember English and Italian traditional metalshaping methods are the best , follow their methods and you can not go wrong
Quite simple. The contact zones between two parallel cylindrical surfaces is a line. The contact zone between a cylinder and a spherical surface is a small oval spot. The smaller the radii, the smaller the contact zones and the higher the pressure in that area, resulting in more deformation of the workpiece. The smaller radius at the lower anvil causes more stretching resulting in a tighter radius at the workpiece. But this will also require more passes, as the "lines" get more narrow. But that's just theory. Good to know. But having the skills of someone with that much experience as these guys here is something completely different 😉
I couldn’t agree with you more Sir. Perfect explanation of common sense. Flat top anvils ive found are only good for a example, making a flat 80s door skin just to tighten it before rolling edges.
Thank you, .....There are quite a few people that do not believe my theory , but I suppose each to their own ........ in this world one can not please everybody , and is OK with me
Thanks, Peter! Very good and logical explanation from one of the best in the business. Wish I'd seen this before buying lower anvils with flats. IMO, and having used the English wheel for some time now, I think that the anvils with flats were devised to overcome inexperience, whereby either too much pressure or "wild and irregular" placement of subsequent tracks - and perhaps even both, led to over-stretching and poor control over the desired shape. Yes, I do get "tracks" in my panels...
An easy solution would be to take the shafts and bearing off them, get them soft again and get them re machined to full radius, then get them hardened again .They need to be hardened or they will wear flat again pretty quick .
The metal in between the anvils thins, but thinner metal is also pressed outside the circumference of the contact area of the anvils. This is the (part) or faction that curves the most. If a piece of metal is laid down on blacksmiths anvil and struck with a hammer thats face has a smaller area then the anvil, the metal will always curve towards the side with the smaller area.
I think the idea of the larger lower anvil is the same as a hammer and dolly. You don't hammer and dolly with the end of a half inch rod because the only place getting contacted is where you are hitting. You have a dolly similar to the curve so that as you hit a low up or high down the surrounding metal is supported.
If you think that way , that is fine with me . As mention before a extra wide anvil (from a standard size ) is not an advantage . The amount of pressure applied and full radius anvils is. ... As far as the hammer and dolly ...Well that is another story ,.... it all depends on the required operation .
They don't do traditional English wheeling. They each have their own style. Just because they use an English wheel doesn't mean that they do it the traditional English way.
Lots of sense behind your statements. It's all about the size of the contact point and how much area pressure you get form the force applied. Same force on flat or full radius will give more contact pressure for the full radius and by that more work done. As said before in te comments flats might save your ass when you learn wheeling or be used as a finishing deal on love crown surfaces as hoods and doors. I'm not an expert at all but have seen a lot and use only hammers.
But in the UK all of the traditional wheel guys use flats jncluding guys who apprenticed at Aston Martin etc. Lots of their work is here on youtube. They’ve been using them for more than 100 yrs. John Glover, who brought the wheel to America and who worked at Ford in England, Dehavilland aircraft in Toronto and the GM prototype shop in Michigan used flats. Same with Butler, Covell, Fournier and hundreds of others who have done great work. So I can see that the technique might be different and the pressures used might be different, but how can you say that flats don’t work?
I think you should do your home work a bit better ,In England the traditional tradesman only use flats for specific tasks , and only a few of them use them as well . As I mention on the video I do use flats but only for some specific shapes , 90% of the time I use full radius simply because the shape is achieved a lot quicker and they give more control and feel without putting lines on the job. Try your self by wheeling a panel and compare the two . Remember... as I shown , little pressure at each time rather then squeeze too much too soon. Having said this, Please use what you are used to , or more comfortable with . PS...... are you confusing flats in the center rather then a specially modified lower anvils for some tasks ?
@@Handbuilt1 I have never tried the full radius dies and I am not an expert. I am going on the fact that everyone I see in north America, to my knowledge, uses the flats and the main supplier, Hoosier profiles, sells primarily the flats. I have seen some videos of an older guy in the UK who trained at Astons and he was making jag bonnets on a big old cast wheel with flats on the anvils so I just assumed that they all used that since both he and John Glover were old school English apprentices. But I have not been there and my knowledge is limited.
@@sblack48 I know of the guy in England well, you probably find that he was using flats to finish off the Jag bonnet after using full radius, simply because after achieving the shape needed, and there is no need for more shape, the flats with the same radius , will smooth thing off quicker ..BUT REMEMBER when using flats do not apply excessive pressure
Modern wheels are to stiff and ridged ,I think. Old wheels seem to be flexible metal😂...I know that sounds crazy but it's as if they where self adjusting ?
The fact is that most modern wheels are fabricated, means that there is little feel and too much give from the frame , in some cases no feel and no give at all (meaning too stiff) there for a lot of pressure is used to stretch a panel especially by using flats on the anvils. The old wheels (been cast iron ) have a feel and a bit of give as well, this fact.... (feel and a bit of give ) allows the operator to control and to be able to wheel with little pressure, so by using a cast wheel and full radius anvils, the operator can wheel a panel quicker and because of the low pressure used there are no lines in the panel .
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Completely agree Peter, thanks for taking the time to show us
Thank you for taking the time to post this Peter. The 1200 grit blocking can't be argued. With a low crown panel like a door skin, one might be able to get away with using the flat dies. For polished high crown panels, it seems imperative to use full radius or you will be forced to sand heavily to remove the flats. I purchased your DVD's many years ago and they helped me quite a lot.
Peter please make more videos! Theres a lot of guys out here but youre one of the best!
Thank you for your kind words . There will be more video's in 2020 and beyond
Relatively new to metal shaping and by sheer dumb luck my first good set of anvils [from Hoosier Profiles] is full radius! Thank you very much for the insights and expertise Peter!
Well done -- clear as a crystal -- THANKS!
Thank you for watching
👍thank you very much. Peter, you are super1 💪🏽😁
Thank you
I wish I'd had this video ten years ago when I bought my flat anvils from our friend who's no longer in business. I gave them to Jim H. when I got sick (you may recall) and he's never used them. Hoping you can make it back to Belfast Tennessee one of these days, Peter.
Thank you for your comment , I hope that you are better now
Obrigado por passar seu conhecimento, essa dica vai me ajudar muito, eu encontro muita dificuldade para remover essas marcas de quina.
Very informative video Peter. It has always puzzled me why people would want flats on a lower wheel, and you addressed both scenarios where I would see a possible use: long aircraft skins with little shape, and work an edge for a reverse curve. I guess relatively flat door skins might also be a use. But like you say: 90% of the time it’s full radius. Excellent work, you are one of the greats for sure. Regards from England. Matt Keene 👍
Thank you Matt from Australia , and remember English and Italian traditional metalshaping methods are the best , follow their methods and you can not go wrong
Quite simple.
The contact zones between two parallel cylindrical surfaces is a line.
The contact zone between a cylinder and a spherical surface is a small oval spot.
The smaller the radii, the smaller the contact zones and the higher the pressure in that area, resulting in more deformation of the workpiece.
The smaller radius at the lower anvil causes more stretching resulting in a tighter radius at the workpiece.
But this will also require more passes, as the "lines" get more narrow.
But that's just theory.
Good to know.
But having the skills of someone with that much experience as these guys here is something completely different 😉
That is why the smallest the radius is , the less pressure is used when wheeling
I couldn’t agree with you more Sir. Perfect explanation of common sense.
Flat top anvils ive found are only good for a example, making a flat 80s door skin just to tighten it before rolling edges.
Thank you, makes total sense!
Thank you, .....There are quite a few people that do not believe my theory , but I suppose each to their own ........ in this world one can not please everybody , and is OK with me
Thanks, Peter! Very good and logical explanation from one of the best in the business. Wish I'd seen this before buying lower anvils with flats. IMO, and having used the English wheel for some time now, I think that the anvils with flats were devised to overcome inexperience, whereby either too much pressure or "wild and irregular" placement of subsequent tracks - and perhaps even both, led to over-stretching and poor control over the desired shape. Yes, I do get "tracks" in my panels...
An easy solution would be to take the shafts and bearing off them, get them soft again and get them re machined to full radius, then get them hardened again .They need to be hardened or they will wear flat again pretty quick .
Thanks, Peter. Will get a new set made up and hardened.
Super intressting and wery educating to watch and learn from you, and i totally agree to 100%
Very interresting like all your metal shapping videos ! Thank you very much !
Thank you
Você e um grande mestre 👏🇧🇷
Thank you for your kind words
Very informative and interesting. Thanks
Too right Pete, a lot of the cheap wheeling machines out there are FLAT in the middle of the radius on the lower anvil, absolutely useless !!
Do you have instructions videos i can buy?
Yes we do simply contact me for info . tommasini@handbuilt.net.au
This guy is a treasure....
Thank you
Nice work Peter , we go back ; Richard Stanley
How are you Richard...... still working ?
The metal in between the anvils thins, but thinner metal is also pressed outside the circumference of the contact area of the anvils. This is the (part) or faction that curves the most.
If a piece of metal is laid down on blacksmiths anvil and struck with a hammer thats face has a smaller area then the anvil, the metal will always curve towards the side with the smaller area.
I think the idea of the larger lower anvil is the same as a hammer and dolly. You don't hammer and dolly with the end of a half inch rod because the only place getting contacted is where you are hitting. You have a dolly similar to the curve so that as you hit a low up or high down the surrounding metal is supported.
If you think that way , that is fine with me . As mention before a extra wide anvil (from a standard size ) is not an advantage . The amount of pressure applied and full radius anvils is. ... As far as the hammer and dolly ...Well that is another story ,.... it all depends on the required operation .
Brilliant explanation, thanks 👌
Thank you
Thanks to the KING of the English wheel 🇦🇺🇮🇪👌🏼☝🏼️
Thank you
Thank you very much. You are the only one on RUclips that does traditional wheeling. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
No he's not!!! Lazze, and Wray Scheline dose too!!!
They don't do traditional English wheeling. They each have their own style. Just because they use an English wheel doesn't mean that they do it the traditional English way.
@@dominosgarage Well said!
Check out Geoff Moss on William longyards channel wheeling up a lotus.
I have seen all of those video when they where first posted a few years back, Geoff does know his stuff, excellent work !! The quality is first class
Thank you.
Супер
is peter channeling victor borge?
What do you mean ?
Lots of sense behind your statements. It's all about the size of the contact point and how much area pressure you get form the force applied. Same force on flat or full radius will give more contact pressure for the full radius and by that more work done. As said before in te comments flats might save your ass when you learn wheeling or be used as a finishing deal on love crown surfaces as hoods and doors. I'm not an expert at all but have seen a lot and use only hammers.
Thank you, I personally do not like using anvils with flat surfaces
But in the UK all of the traditional wheel guys use flats jncluding guys who apprenticed at Aston Martin etc. Lots of their work is here on youtube. They’ve been using them for more than 100 yrs. John Glover, who brought the wheel to America and who worked at Ford in England, Dehavilland aircraft in Toronto and the GM prototype shop in Michigan used flats. Same with Butler, Covell, Fournier and hundreds of others who have done great work. So I can see that the technique might be different and the pressures used might be different, but how can you say that flats don’t work?
I think you should do your home work a bit better ,In England the traditional tradesman only use flats for specific tasks , and only a few of them use them as well . As I mention on the video I do use flats but only for some specific shapes , 90% of the time I use full radius simply because the shape is achieved a lot quicker and they give more control and feel without putting lines on the job. Try your self by wheeling a panel and compare the two . Remember... as I shown , little pressure at each time rather then squeeze too much too soon. Having said this, Please use what you are used to , or more comfortable with .
PS...... are you confusing flats in the center rather then a specially modified lower anvils for some tasks ?
@@Handbuilt1 I have never tried the full radius dies and I am not an expert. I am going on the fact that everyone I see in north America, to my knowledge, uses the flats and the main supplier, Hoosier profiles, sells primarily the flats. I have seen some videos of an older guy in the UK who trained at Astons and he was making jag bonnets on a big old cast wheel with flats on the anvils so I just assumed that they all used that since both he and John Glover were old school English apprentices. But I have not been there and my knowledge is limited.
@@sblack48 I know of the guy in England well, you probably find that he was using flats to finish off the Jag bonnet after using full radius, simply because after achieving the shape needed, and there is no need for more shape, the flats with the same radius , will smooth thing off quicker ..BUT REMEMBER when using flats do not apply excessive pressure
Modern wheels are to stiff and ridged ,I think. Old wheels seem to be flexible metal😂...I know that sounds crazy but it's as if they where self adjusting ?
The fact is that most modern wheels are fabricated, means that there is little feel and too much give from the frame , in some cases no feel and no give at all (meaning too stiff) there for a lot of pressure is used to stretch a panel especially by using flats on the anvils. The old wheels (been cast iron ) have a feel and a bit of give as well, this fact.... (feel and a bit of give ) allows the operator to control and to be able to wheel with little pressure, so by using a cast wheel and full radius anvils, the operator can wheel a panel quicker and because of the low pressure used there are no lines in the panel .
Hoosier profile destroyed metalshaping idustrie with term flat wheels it was never flat its was Onion
Forza juve