As a Bok fan who loves Welsh rugby I would like to say hang in there fellas. it wasn't long ago that I thought Bok rugby was headed down the shitter forever. Things turn around, they always do.
There are quite a few things that make me feel Gats isn’t the man for the job: 1. Not speaking to Feyi-W 2. Picking Costelow in a 6-2 3. Re-employing Howley 4. Failing to understand tapering and overtraining 5. His public humiliation of Rhys Carre 6. His refusal to look at players like Kieran Williams and Morgan Morris when so clearly rebuilding. 7. 0-8 record at the Chiefs 8. Winning worst coach in the league award when with the Chiefs 9. The unexplained withdrawal of players like Tipuric and AWJ 10. Consistent refusal to look at Nicky Smith (until now). 11. The very derogatory comments made by some Lions about the quality of Howley in particular 12. His loyalty to players that aren’t on form or working well: Rowlands as the now example. 13. His naming of Hill as captain (this upsets me less than most of the above, but it’s still a bad decision). 14. The fact that his players didn’t know who they were replacing when using a 6-2 15. The fact he writes off a 6-2 despite it being a good system IF you pick the correct players on the bench. He put a 10 on the bench even though there were 3 already on the pitch. I mean, WTF?! 🤦♂️😂 16. The fact that he can watch the Aus game and decide that Murray should be 15 rather than Rogers (I like both of them).
Great debates there guys, well done on another good pod. Lots of food for thought there and good insight as always... Just to put in my thoughts about A fixtures...I think they are part of the long term answer and, if introduced, would at least show that the WRU are trying to do something to help get us get turning the corner (PR win to justify salaries if anything)..Why? 1) I'm imaging it now, Wales A v England A on a Friday night down Plonker parade, cheap, affordable tickets, family tickets for 20 bucks, fair ground ride (plenty of room there), bright lights, razzmatazz, a chance for families to watch Wales that is out of their grasp now.. & that location I would expect that fixture would probably be a sell out due to its proximity to Bristol, Glozzer and Bath. S4C revenue would probably make it profitable too (WRU bean counters would love that). Other fixtures, such as Oz A in Swansea, Portugal in Llanelli NZ in the 'diff etc would be welcome money spinners for the regions and the night time economy of cities and towns. 2) We'd capture players. We dont do that via Under 20s anymore, so we are missing a trick. Would we maybe have seen Feyi-Waboso captured a little while back, dont know, probably not, but maybe we would have. 3) Good amount of room to develop our talented youth outside the Goldfish Bowl. You said it yourselves, tests like 6N matches arent where our lads should be playing to improve their game, the current model crushes players (especially with the negative social media exposure these days). Archie Griffin or Freddie Thomas, for example could have come through the system and develop into class acts with minimal flack. 4) Game exposure. The Dragons Development squad looked great against the Ospreys the other day, where do they go next? Back to a losing team environment probably...but anyway these Dev games have been played to eradicate rustiness and bring back injured players, same goes for the benefits of Wales A. Ok, theres a chance they'll pick up injuries in Wales A games, but we'd surely gain more than wed lose. Also, as an aside, with the Premiership cup on at the moment, could we resurrect the Anglo Welsh cup for the Autumn window? 4) Pride and accomplishment. I would hate it if a talented player, someone like Keelan Giles for example*, finishes his career and never got to wear the red jersey of Wales. Richard Burton's oft quoted dialogue comes to mind. 5) Coach Succession planning. If we, lets say, had Toby Booth as head coach of the A Team, and boy, he'd be a great developer of young players ! Then if we were to sack our main team coach, we'd possibly look to the hugely successful A team coach to step in. Ok, wishful thinking maybe, but go with it! 5) We'd know more about our players by now. There is often talk that Player X didnt show up against the yardstick teams, like Leinster, well, sometime we don't field our strongest team against them, so its difficult to tell. But if that player excelled against a NZ A equivalent, or went missing, then we would know for sure. If it went well, we'd have the next cab off the rank should the senior team equivalent get injured. 6) To shut WOL's journalists from writing stuff like Cam Winnett has only won 1 game in his entire life etc.. 7) Differentl kits. A while back there was a clamour for the three feathers to be replaced with the dragon, can do so on the A kit without upsetting anyone. Could also go for outrageous designs, like Stade Francais, with welsh cakes, leaks, max boyces face, mabinogion monsters, castles, harps, daffodils, superted.... macron kit designers go nuts! * He wont, that cap is coming..probably against Japan, but it could be the 6N if things go sour on Saturday** ** & they will, sadly
It isn’t possible. Rugby people are very traditionalist. The Tiers are set in stone. It’s the reason England think they should still beat Scotland - as if there’s no chance Scotland can win - and get very depressed if they don’t. They cannot see that Scotland have better players, in the same way many Rugby fans cannot accept that some Tier 2 nations are very good.
As a Bok supporter, I would suggest that Wales focus on what was called Jakeball in Oz when Jake White turned the Brumbies around a number of years ago. It is more boring but when you use set piece and halfbacks to plug the sideline as close as possible to the corner. You will keep the opposition back in or near their twenty-two, forcing them to run from way back and to make mistakes, you then have more opportunities nearer to the oppositions tryline including penalties. In former years this would be called ten-person rugby and would give Wales a better chance of winning. I agree with your panelists who want to see a winning team. People love winners. The URC proves that Wales does not have the talent that some of you are talking about.
Wales just doesn't have the players to play that style of rugby at the moment - we need to maximise the talent that we have rather than trying to wedge players into a system that doesn't work for them.
I would go further and say that it is a Wales wide problem - the social and political upheavals of the last 10 years have impacted the game in Wales massively
Great chat & subscribed 👍 🏴 James is right about Scotland, and the reality is that they haven't won anything - and certainly nothing compared to Wales. But it's Wales who are always hammered by the Media & by other Rugby nations - and Scotland are bigged up relentlessly. Quite rightly at the moment BUT with little or no context as to the reasons WHY Wales are at this all-time low i.e 3 letters, 'WRU'. Sadly I remember the tragedy of the painful 90s, and this is a very similar & painful experience. Scotland may do something better this year with even more overseas players qualifying 😏 The Welsh boys are so low on confidence for both Club & Country, and somehow the USELESS 💩 that is the WRU must inject serious money to the game FAST so the boys can have a chance of Club competition success & translate the confidence onto the international stage. Between Tierney, Collier-Keywood & Walker that must be an atleast £1.5 million spend, or not far off. Ridiculous waste of money. And unbelievably the WRU Board has 6 DIFFERENT GROUPS! No wonder nothing ever changes! See the link FYI. There should be ONE BOARD of no more than 10 MEMBERS. And the 25 cap rule needs scrapping, so we can get the likes of Hawkins & other lost talent back immediately. My late Dad played for Wales, and he'd be totally dismayed at this latest WRU led DISASTER 😢 Sack the lot & start again. This is not Gatland's making. community.wru.wales/governance/rugby-boards/wru-board/
Right now, Scotland are playing better rugby than Wales - that isn't difficult to see - too much stuff about the WRU to go into on comments and Gatland needs to take responsibility - especially as he has significant influence within the WRU as well.
I feel there was a very, very, slim chance of establishing an east/west regional setup in the past. But it would have taken levels of foresight, emotional and financial investment that the wru and clubs (inc their core fans) would never have been able to stomach. It's too late now and whilst I'm not a fan of the current setup, it's what we have and we have to make do with it. The type of reform needed isn't likely going to happen by getting rid of a region either. Obvs more money would help in the short term but would that just be spent on marquee players instead of developing the depth we need? I would say if it was an easy fix, they would have done it. Then again, it is the WRU we're talking about 😅 I'm new to the podcast (post Fiji game and really enjoying the discourse) so apologies if you've covered it already, but if you guys were there before the inception of the regions and with all the hindsight of where we are now, what would you have done differently and why?
Some of us have been around for much longer than the regions - hard to say how it could have been done differently as the best decisions get made with the available information - Hindsight is a gift that has no use.
@@wrrappodcast thanks for the reply :) Respectfully disagree regarding hindsight. Understanding what happened in the past can help you make better decisions going forward. Although, going back that far, probably a few too many assumptions needed to plot a 'Golden Path' (to quote Dune) for Welsh rugby through professionalism 😂
Wales should get Eddie Jones in now for the next WC with a making it to the final a financial incentive. No one better a short targeted campaigns. Players clearly get sick of him after a few seasons, but love him for less than 4.
I am old enough to remember the 80,s and 90,s , yes it was a dark time at international level, but the game at club level was still drawing in good crowds. You talk of the apathy resulting in lost ticket revenue at international level, but you are forgeting that regional rugby is in a even worse position. You all support one of the regions, good for you, but I like many others, can remember the destruction of the club based game for Moffets regions foremat , it was so these regions would give a "constant" conveyor belt ,of talented players to the national game. Does it look like thats the case right now ?, looks like many players who are not of international caliber, or too soon, just doing there best in the circumstances.
I was there as well through the 80;s and 90's - we were poor through the majority of that time, week on week crowds were smaller as the grounds were smaller at club level as well. The game has moved on - we need to work out how we repair our game at all levels
@@wrrappodcast Well you may well be right, but what have we moved on too ?. Are we not in the same position yet now we have regions that are not real regions of Wales.
The rugby culture in Wales needs a reset, with emphasis on football skills and rugby intelligence, rather than going out on the piss and getting massive. There's a clear successful set up across the water in Ireland, so follow that. Wont be able to change the geographical set up of the regions without annoying certain fan bases and the amateur clubs, but surely there's scope for creating private schools associated with the WRU to work as a filtration system into the pro game?
We ARE following the Irish set up - which is based on a series of private schools and academies - Private schools dont work that way in Wales and we don't have an education system to focus on rugby
I think wru collier, abi and nigel need to step down. Gatland needs to go with coaching team. I mean foreshaw, humphrys, howley and Jenkins not good enough to coach at this level. I mean how much is neil Jenkins getting paid to carry a kicking tee and water bottles. 3/4 of the squad are bog standard club players. Also no young quality players coming through and the coaching of these young players is of poor standard.
@@wrrappodcast hahah, no hate towards wales. Prefer them to England or Ireland. Don’t have the same arrogance, humble lot. Just need a serious rebuild and that won’t be in time for 2025 six nations. Few more wooden spoons unfortunately are on the way
@@wrrappodcast no it hasn’t said it for years, we used to win grand slams triple crowns with the under 20s now WRU and regions seem to be happy with sitting second from the bottom for the last 10-15 years while our golden era with Allun wyn jones and alike was winning.
Its taken a couple of decades but the reality has now arrived .. welsh rugby domestically has little to no identity anymore. The regions are dire and theres just not the room at proffessional level to cater for the number of youngsters coming through for development.. the welsh semi pro league is also a joke and the wru considering the welsh premiership to be a breeding ground for talent to go onto feed the regions and potentially Wales are lifing in fantasy land and have been living this fantasy for far to long
SA here - hope Wales comes back soon. ( just not to beat us). Best wishes the world needs Wales
We think you are safe for this weekend
Is James building a pizza box pyramid in the background? All the best for Wales from Oz. Nice discussion lads.
More of a cardboard fort - not exclusively pizza boxes
As a Bok fan who loves Welsh rugby I would like to say hang in there fellas. it wasn't long ago that I thought Bok rugby was headed down the shitter forever. Things turn around, they always do.
Are you offering Rassie to help us out?
@@wrrappodcast Ahem...no no, that would be silly. ☺
Well done lads ... All the best from Welshman and his cat Costa Rica ...Deserves more subscribers !!!
totally agree about subscribers :) Thank you for the feedback
There are quite a few things that make me feel Gats isn’t the man for the job:
1. Not speaking to Feyi-W
2. Picking Costelow in a 6-2
3. Re-employing Howley
4. Failing to understand tapering and overtraining
5. His public humiliation of Rhys Carre
6. His refusal to look at players like Kieran Williams and Morgan Morris when so clearly rebuilding.
7. 0-8 record at the Chiefs
8. Winning worst coach in the league award when with the Chiefs
9. The unexplained withdrawal of players like Tipuric and AWJ
10. Consistent refusal to look at Nicky Smith (until now).
11. The very derogatory comments made by some Lions about the quality of Howley in particular
12. His loyalty to players that aren’t on form or working well: Rowlands as the now example.
13. His naming of Hill as captain (this upsets me less than most of the above, but it’s still a bad decision).
14. The fact that his players didn’t know who they were replacing when using a 6-2
15. The fact he writes off a 6-2 despite it being a good system IF you pick the correct players on the bench. He put a 10 on the bench even though there were 3 already on the pitch. I mean, WTF?! 🤦♂️😂
16. The fact that he can watch the Aus game and decide that Murray should be 15 rather than Rogers (I like both of them).
Best post.
Great debates there guys, well done on another good pod. Lots of food for thought there and good insight as always...
Just to put in my thoughts about A fixtures...I think they are part of the long term answer and, if introduced, would at least show that the WRU are trying to do something to help get us get turning the corner (PR win to justify salaries if anything)..Why?
1) I'm imaging it now, Wales A v England A on a Friday night down Plonker parade, cheap, affordable tickets, family tickets for 20 bucks, fair ground ride (plenty of room there), bright lights, razzmatazz, a chance for families to watch Wales that is out of their grasp now.. & that location I would expect that fixture would probably be a sell out due to its proximity to Bristol, Glozzer and Bath.
S4C revenue would probably make it profitable too (WRU bean counters would love that).
Other fixtures, such as Oz A in Swansea, Portugal in Llanelli NZ in the 'diff etc would be welcome money spinners for the regions and the night time economy of cities and towns.
2) We'd capture players. We dont do that via Under 20s anymore, so we are missing a trick. Would we maybe have seen Feyi-Waboso captured a little while back, dont know, probably not, but maybe we would have.
3) Good amount of room to develop our talented youth outside the Goldfish Bowl. You said it yourselves, tests like 6N matches arent where our lads should be playing to improve their game, the current model crushes players (especially with the negative social media exposure these days). Archie Griffin or Freddie Thomas, for example could have come through the system and develop into class acts with minimal flack.
4) Game exposure. The Dragons Development squad looked great against the Ospreys the other day, where do they go next? Back to a losing team environment probably...but anyway these Dev games have been played to eradicate rustiness and bring back injured players, same goes for the benefits of Wales A. Ok, theres a chance they'll pick up injuries in Wales A games, but we'd surely gain more than wed lose. Also, as an aside, with the Premiership cup on at the moment, could we resurrect the Anglo Welsh cup for the Autumn window?
4) Pride and accomplishment. I would hate it if a talented player, someone like Keelan Giles for example*, finishes his career and never got to wear the red jersey of Wales. Richard Burton's oft quoted dialogue comes to mind.
5) Coach Succession planning. If we, lets say, had Toby Booth as head coach of the A Team, and boy, he'd be a great developer of young players ! Then if we were to sack our main team coach, we'd possibly look to the hugely successful A team coach to step in. Ok, wishful thinking maybe, but go with it!
5) We'd know more about our players by now. There is often talk that Player X didnt show up against the yardstick teams, like Leinster, well, sometime we don't field our strongest team against them, so its difficult to tell. But if that player excelled against a NZ A equivalent, or went missing, then we would know for sure. If it went well, we'd have the next cab off the rank should the senior team equivalent get injured.
6) To shut WOL's journalists from writing stuff like Cam Winnett has only won 1 game in his entire life etc..
7) Differentl kits. A while back there was a clamour for the three feathers to be replaced with the dragon, can do so on the A kit without upsetting anyone. Could also go for outrageous designs, like Stade Francais, with welsh cakes, leaks, max boyces face, mabinogion monsters, castles, harps, daffodils, superted.... macron kit designers go nuts!
* He wont, that cap is coming..probably against Japan, but it could be the 6N if things go sour on Saturday**
** & they will, sadly
Friendly reminder that Fiji is a tier 2 nation…
What do they need to do to be classed as a Tier 1 nation?
It isn’t possible. Rugby people are very traditionalist. The Tiers are set in stone. It’s the reason England think they should still beat Scotland - as if there’s no chance Scotland can win - and get very depressed if they don’t. They cannot see that Scotland have better players, in the same way many Rugby fans cannot accept that some Tier 2 nations are very good.
As a Bok supporter, I would suggest that Wales focus on what was called Jakeball in Oz when Jake White turned the Brumbies around a number of years ago. It is more boring but when you use set piece and halfbacks to plug the sideline as close as possible to the corner.
You will keep the opposition back in or near their twenty-two, forcing them to run from way back and to make mistakes, you then have more opportunities nearer to the oppositions tryline including penalties. In former years this would be called ten-person rugby and would give Wales a better chance of winning.
I agree with your panelists who want to see a winning team. People love winners. The URC proves that Wales does not have the talent that some of you are talking about.
its deeper Its sysytemic Up and down the Union all araes
Wales just doesn't have the players to play that style of rugby at the moment - we need to maximise the talent that we have rather than trying to wedge players into a system that doesn't work for them.
I would go further and say that it is a Wales wide problem - the social and political upheavals of the last 10 years have impacted the game in Wales massively
Great chat & subscribed 👍 🏴 James is right about Scotland, and the reality is that they haven't won anything - and certainly nothing compared to Wales. But it's Wales who are always hammered by the Media & by other Rugby nations - and Scotland are bigged up relentlessly. Quite rightly at the moment BUT with little or no context as to the reasons WHY Wales are at this all-time low i.e 3 letters, 'WRU'. Sadly I remember the tragedy of the painful 90s, and this is a very similar & painful experience. Scotland may do something better this year with even more overseas players qualifying 😏 The Welsh boys are so low on confidence for both Club & Country, and somehow the USELESS 💩 that is the WRU must inject serious money to the game FAST so the boys can have a chance of Club competition success & translate the confidence onto the international stage. Between Tierney, Collier-Keywood & Walker that must be an atleast £1.5 million spend, or not far off. Ridiculous waste of money. And unbelievably the WRU Board has 6 DIFFERENT GROUPS! No wonder nothing ever changes! See the link FYI. There should be ONE BOARD of no more than 10 MEMBERS. And the 25 cap rule needs scrapping, so we can get the likes of Hawkins & other lost talent back immediately. My late Dad played for Wales, and he'd be totally dismayed at this latest WRU led DISASTER 😢 Sack the lot & start again. This is not Gatland's making.
community.wru.wales/governance/rugby-boards/wru-board/
Right now, Scotland are playing better rugby than Wales - that isn't difficult to see - too much stuff about the WRU to go into on comments and Gatland needs to take responsibility - especially as he has significant influence within the WRU as well.
Big M jesus 2nd week last week didn't even know last week beard was the line out caller. Scarlet blind
I feel there was a very, very, slim chance of establishing an east/west regional setup in the past. But it would have taken levels of foresight, emotional and financial investment that the wru and clubs (inc their core fans) would never have been able to stomach.
It's too late now and whilst I'm not a fan of the current setup, it's what we have and we have to make do with it. The type of reform needed isn't likely going to happen by getting rid of a region either. Obvs more money would help in the short term but would that just be spent on marquee players instead of developing the depth we need?
I would say if it was an easy fix, they would have done it. Then again, it is the WRU we're talking about 😅
I'm new to the podcast (post Fiji game and really enjoying the discourse) so apologies if you've covered it already, but if you guys were there before the inception of the regions and with all the hindsight of where we are now, what would you have done differently and why?
Some of us have been around for much longer than the regions - hard to say how it could have been done differently as the best decisions get made with the available information - Hindsight is a gift that has no use.
@@wrrappodcast thanks for the reply :)
Respectfully disagree regarding hindsight. Understanding what happened in the past can help you make better decisions going forward.
Although, going back that far, probably a few too many assumptions needed to plot a 'Golden Path' (to quote Dune) for Welsh rugby through professionalism 😂
Wales should get Eddie Jones in now for the next WC with a making it to the final a financial incentive. No one better a short targeted campaigns. Players clearly get sick of him after a few seasons, but love him for less than 4.
12 will become 17 maybe if they beat Italy in 6 nations 16 ?
That is a sad but very real scenario
We are tier 2 at the moment lets accept it, the last thing we need is South Africa :(
Unfortunately reality keeps putting an appearance in.
I am old enough to remember the 80,s and 90,s , yes it was a dark time at international level, but the game at club level was still drawing in good crowds. You talk of the apathy resulting in lost ticket revenue at international level, but you are forgeting that regional rugby is in a even worse position. You all support one of the regions, good for you, but I like many others, can remember the destruction of the club based game for Moffets regions foremat , it was so these regions would give a "constant" conveyor belt ,of talented players to the national game. Does it look like thats the case right now ?, looks like many players who are not of international caliber, or too soon, just doing there best in the circumstances.
I was there as well through the 80;s and 90's - we were poor through the majority of that time, week on week crowds were smaller as the grounds were smaller at club level as well. The game has moved on - we need to work out how we repair our game at all levels
@@wrrappodcast Well you may well be right, but what have we moved on too ?. Are we not in the same position yet now we have regions that are not real regions of Wales.
South Africa 80
Wales 81 ?
@@wrrappodcast Only in my dreams. I fear it going to be a near-record-breaking defeat
The rugby culture in Wales needs a reset, with emphasis on football skills and rugby intelligence, rather than going out on the piss and getting massive. There's a clear successful set up across the water in Ireland, so follow that. Wont be able to change the geographical set up of the regions without annoying certain fan bases and the amateur clubs, but surely there's scope for creating private schools associated with the WRU to work as a filtration system into the pro game?
We ARE following the Irish set up - which is based on a series of private schools and academies - Private schools dont work that way in Wales and we don't have an education system to focus on rugby
I think wru collier, abi and nigel need to step down. Gatland needs to go with coaching team. I mean foreshaw, humphrys, howley and Jenkins not good enough to coach at this level. I mean how much is neil Jenkins getting paid to carry a kicking tee and water bottles. 3/4 of the squad are bog standard club players. Also no young quality players coming through and the coaching of these young players is of poor standard.
Jenkins is the goal kicking coach ..
@isitwasit8756 I think his correct job title is skills coach. 🤣🤣🤣
Think you guys are living in the past, even if you improve a lot before the six nations you are never beating Scotland
Never? Never is a very long time!
@ agreed
We will see
True
@@wrrappodcast hahah, no hate towards wales. Prefer them to England or Ireland. Don’t have the same arrogance, humble lot. Just need a serious rebuild and that won’t be in time for 2025 six nations. Few more wooden spoons unfortunately are on the way
Don’t forget in the 80s we lost so many players to rugby league
We did - they were different times but you have to question if the game has really moved on that much?
@@wrrappodcast no it hasn’t said it for years, we used to win grand slams triple crowns with the under 20s now WRU and regions seem to be happy with sitting second from the bottom for the last 10-15 years while our golden era with Allun wyn jones and alike was winning.
Its taken a couple of decades but the reality has now arrived .. welsh rugby domestically has little to no identity anymore. The regions are dire and theres just not the room at proffessional level to cater for the number of youngsters coming through for development.. the welsh semi pro league is also a joke and the wru considering the welsh premiership to be a breeding ground for talent to go onto feed the regions and potentially Wales are lifing in fantasy land and have been living this fantasy for far to long
Thanks for the positivity
@wrrappodcast some people just cant handle the truth.