Lostmyhead’s take on the spring scene is absolutely beautiful. Thank you for including it in this amazing video! I always loved the Magypsies and their outlook on life, even before I knew I was nonbinary. You’ve done a great job covering them and what they represent here, and how the devs wrote them into being. I think Fassad could maybe represent self-doubt/hate that many trans/nb people go though, and in particular how it can occasionally turn into a push back to the old gender or aggression from the stress. Or maybe living life as a ‘chameleon’ - blending in with gender norms to be better accepted by society. It’s interesting that despite his purposely masculine appearance compared to his siblings, he still keeps the seashell house and the frilly decoration inside. I hope that goes deeper than "we wanted to make it clear he is a magypsy."
that theory about fassad is backed up by the fact that he only uses default attacks or bombs for the majority of the time you fight him, and you only learn that he can use PSI at the end of the fight in the sewer. maybe holding out on using what he understands is characteristic of magypsies, that being the usage of PSI, is his way of separating himself from his true identity and connection to them. maybe he has indeed internalized the hatred that came as a result of being someone who stood out from what is considered 'the norm' in society and later went to become everything the magypsies stood against
I can get how hating the magypsies is a bit transphobic but you cant convince me that the scene isnt weird at all. The scene is so unecessary for what is actually happening in the story that it makes me question if that was actually what Itoi wanted to convey
I literally never interpreted the PSI awakening scene as anything other than Ionia forcing Lucas's head underwater so that he can experience near-death to awaken his latent PSI. It's a common trope in media that someone's magical powers will manifest when they're in danger, and this was just another example of that. I was extremely surprised to see so many people online find the scene disturbing or worthy of special mention or attention as something unusual.
I think it's a mix of the dialog and the screen fading to black and the fact that Lucas gets his back turned to the Magypsy. Though I don't think Itoi would've put sexual assault in a Mother game.
This is exactly how I interpreted the scene on my first play-through. It didn't even occur to me a Mother game might have sexual assault in it until I started watching reviews that discussed it that way. I still don't think Itoi would have put that in the game, or wanted people to infer it. The way Ionia talks in the scene makes more sense when you recall how the Magypsies talked to Alec and Flint in Chapter 1 after sending Claus to his almost certain death, it's just how they are.
The hot spring scene being interpreted as sexual always just felt like a joke more than a serious thing to consider. The whole series feels very innocent in that regard, and I always just assumed that it was Lucas being drowned to force enough trauma to unleash his strongest psi. It's kinda like Muu training in that regard, an extremely uncomfortable and distressing test to see if a character was truly up to the difficult tasks up ahead. I could see a remake of the game handling it similarly as well, with the magypsy going under the water and the player having to hold A for an uncomfortable amount of time to keep Lucas under there for long enough.
The joke is a minor being in an uncomfortably sexual situation. It's something Japan is a lot more comfortable about than the west, but since Japan also has the biggest market of drawn child pornography, I don't blame the west for being wary.
I agree with you with Licas being drowned in the hot spring to unlessh his PSI powers and i dont see it as sexual assault at all But seeing it the other way as being transphobic i dont know but thats justs me Alot people think this way is weird because o the text and like placing?? Im not sure but yeah
I never assumed the hot spring scene was unsavory while playing through in my early teens. I mainly saw that take on youtube and in forums. Actually, the main thing the scene resembles to me is a baptism, which in some denominations involves full submersion by a pastor standing right behind the person. In my head that's a better explanation for Nintendo not wanting to bring the game over, being extremely strict on religious references in games like Ocarina of Time only a few years prior. Mother has always had direct religious references in Japanese and this may be one that Nintendo would have altered fully if they released in the US. Through watching your video, i think that this scene was intentionally constructed with imagery that suggests many contexts in both English and Japanese culture, especially social rituals like onsen bathing that don't translate directly.
I think the music being a copyright disaster might be the actual reason. A lot of it is REALLY close to existing music. And the music industry sucks like that.
the magypsies do seem to get a bad rap these days, I understand that a lot of people just play the game and never see any of itoi's comments, but I think it's a shame that a lot of people seem to assume they're intended as purely hateful stereotypes. if you read dev comments it becomes clear they were created by open-minded, well intentioned people, even if some aspects of them have aged poorly. reading what itoi has said about them I definitely personally believe they weren't intended as transphobic, and would be very interested to see how he might approach creating similar characters now. great video!
I think the Ionia hot spring scene is meant to be Lucas getting shoved under the water until he can no longer hold his breath and the reason the screen fades to black is just as a joke.
The points you brought up at the end about fassad made me rethink my thoughts about him as a character . I interpreted his character as a closeted trans person that’s is choosing to stay in the closet for power,safety, and or internalized transphobia As a trans man I knew I was trans for awhile but refused to come out of closet due of self hatred and fear. Also I find it interesting that in fassad’s room you can find hints of him being a magypsies. This kind of reminds me how I used to try my hardest to appear “cis gender” but still had “hints” of my tranness throughout my life. And it’s also telling that out of all the magypsies he’s the one that “went bad” due him not excepting himself and his way of life This was such a well made video and I’m glad you put in the effort of including trans voices ☺️ Can’t wait for your next vid!
Whenever someone would bring up that particular interpretation of the hot spring scene, I'd always feel somewhat confused and uncomfortable, because I personally never thought there was anything wrong about the scene, but I also feared there was something wrong with myself for not noticing. However, after seeing other people's views on it, I think I can be more assured that making Lucas dive into the water was meant to be part of a special ritual to awaken PSI (thanks to one of the comments for mentioning baptism, as that's what I had in mind), though I can also see how one can reach the conclusion that cutting to black was meant to intentionally make you feel clueless and nervous. Honestly, I'd feel the same way in that situation, not knowing what the ritual might entail and then being told to stay submerged for an uncomfortably long time.
I am currently writing a College paper on the Magypsies and there representation. Thanks for making this video as it allowed me to see others perspectives in an organized way. It brung some insight on the English translation that I never heard about. I got an 88 so I'm pretty happy. The paper kinda stinks though. :)
I think the hotspring scene is a victim of cultural differences not translating. In Japan public bathing in onsen is normal and very traditional and they don't have the same stereotypes about LGBT people. So when a Japanese person sees the hotspring scene they think it's Ionia is just putting Lucas's head in the water. But when someone from, say the United States sees it public bathing and nudity is not normal to them, and they see this older person with a young boy in an unusual context, and they already have a bias against LGBT people one of their first thoughts is going to be that something inappropriate is happening. Something else I would like to point out is that the androgynous Magypsies having magical powers has similarities to many beliefs throughout history and the world. Some of the ancient Chinese dynasties thought people who crossed the gender binary (in their view) had special powers since they had attributes of both yin and yang. A number of native American cultures believed transgender people to have magical abilities as well.
I have to say, I didn't ever think that saxaphones meant masculinity. I thought that light strings with a sax lead was standard femme fatal music. I thought the magypsies were just interesting. Their gender nonconformity just seemed like a symbol of awakened spiritual power to me. Turns out, ancient Sumerian religion agrees.
I hold the belief that giving the Magypsies an exaggerated drag queen appearance helped to make the idea that they’re neither male or female and yet somehow both more readable on a small GBA screen.
Given the topic you were covering here, I think you did a a really good job getting your point across, whilst being as careful and sincere as possible. Great video :)
I figured they were otherwise drag queen variant characters in the game based on outward appearance. It is really, really depressing to see their fate when each planet needle is pulled after major boss battles akin to the Earthbound Sanctuary Guardian bosses.
As someone who’s trans, I’m not a huge fan of their designs but I do really enjoy their story and their characters. Sure, it would be nice if they had consistent pronouns but I don’t mind what they did with the final dialogue, for me it just comes off as relatable. I use she/her pronouns but lot of the time, people will refer to me differently, it’s annoying most of the time. Sometimes, people are just confused on what I am. Unlike me, the magypsies don’t seem bothered, adding onto their characters and androgyny. For me, I see their pronouns being any.
I had always assumed the Magypsies would like any/all pronouns anyway. I always read them as gender fluid. They lean too hard on harmful design stereotypes, but writing wise I have no real problems.
It's hard to explain, but there's always been something I related to in the nonconformity of the Magifolk's gender and presentation. I never felt they were insulting or ways to discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community. The Magifolk just seemed so apologetically themselves and it's something I really liked. Being agender/nonbinary myself, I feel like I fall into a void between gender expression, and seeing characters that do the same is really refreshing. They're never really played off as jokes to me. They're the softer side to the doom and gloom of the rest of the game. A group of people who don't care in the slightest for fitting into the norms of society, and they accept their deaths with grace and calmness rather than the overwhelming grief that hangs over the deaths of the human characters. Honestly there's been a lot of instances in the game where if any character *does* seem to make fun of them or treat the Magifolk wrong they're *shown* to be in the wrong. Like in Chapter 7 when Ionia is tied up and surrounded by Tazmilians. The people of Tazmily surrounding Ionia are seen as being rather cruel in that moment. They're rude towards her, and act kinda bigoted at times. They're so scared of her that they just watch her struggling with her ropes rather than helping her. But you're *meant* to realise the Tazmilians are just acting less like how they used to. They're scared of what's different, but it's never Ionia's fault. Coming from a small town in a very conservative area, I can fully relate to that. Seeing how the people around me are scared of things they can't understand and turning that fear into hostility. I know I can't speak for everyone, but there's just something that resonates so much to me. I think I prefer some of the beta designs, but I still love their final designs. The only thing I really don't like or feel uncomfortable with is their name since the... g*psy slur isn't perhaps the greatest name they could have had.
I apologise for rambling a bit, I just personally really love these characters. I feel so bad when I see people talking the Magifolk down and I know I'm just one person, but I want to show how they *can* be such wonderful characters.
There's also the interesting fact that drag, especially early drag, often *was* for Trans people. Many used drag as a way to express a feminine or masculine side that they wished to have. It was an option for people who didn't realise they *could* be trans. It gave a good outlet for people to be themselves, and I think that also works so well with what the Magifolk represent.
Is gypsy really a slur, I've never heard anyone use it in deragotary ways and I live in a country where a lot of gypsy people exist? I mean I am not one of them so I wouldn't know but I don't think it is a slur... unless it is.
@@flintfrommother3gaming It is a slur used against the Romani people. Some streamers were using the name Magenie for them in their playthrough and I thought that was a fair replacement.
I think it's good to reflect on the fact that hateful language can become so normalized that we don't even realize we're using words meant to hurt people. I like to consider things like that
as a trans girl, i can say that the magypsies are great characters for sure! i love this video a lot. quick question though, where did u get the high quality mother 3 songs for this video? if u could tell me i'd appreciate that. (actually nvm i read the credits a little more thoroughly)
I believe that fassad is an allegory for strong internalized transphobia, someone who doesn’t want to accept their identity, and turns to bigotry and hate to try to get rid of those feelings. sadly in the past, some people I knew acted this way, being bigoted towards other trans people because they didn’t like who they were.
To me, the PSI awakening was supposed to be as a sort of baptism like ritual to awaken PSI. I never really saw it as weird when I played the first time and only noticed the second time thinking about other peoples thoughts on the scene.
Generally my opinion on the Magypsies is that they are overall fantastic representation that leans way too hard on shitty visual stereotypes in their designs and speech patterns. As you learn more about them the concerns there kind of strip away, but on first sight it for sure feels like it could go in a bad direction. I think that initial reaction of "oh god, this could go bad" is a big part of the reason for the interpretations of the hot spring scene. It's a bit of a reactionary view on the scene, but it's tough to get past that initial seemingly negative portrayal.
I cant describe how much i love the magypsys they are just so fabulous and kind, i cant even say wich one of them is my favourite because i like them ALL
with the scene in the spring- my personal interpretation is that its *meant* to be an allusion to the origin story of Achilles, where his mother dunks him under the water of a magical river to make him invulnerable. however, this does not come across well as a transfeminine person myself, i dont agree with lostmyhead entirely. i feel that if someone was presented with an altered version of the scene where ionia was altered to not be androgenous, the average person would still have a similar takeaway i do also agree with the take about it as a puberty metaphor, with it signaling the start of Lucas's journey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ fassad plays an interesting role with all this, being the only one to be exclusively male presenting. was this always the case, or something he changed about himself when he made the deal with porky? it also makes me think about what the composer said about the music, with the more masculine instrument (which is a horn/brass) disappearing after their death. fassad is very associated with brass instruments/horns as well via his reconstructed versions. when they are broken off, 'his heart is filled with hatred'. im conflicted on how to read him gender wise. is he simply transmasc or a symbol of conformity?
My biggest surprise was to understand that, the magypsies aren't (in a good way) ashamed for their non defining traits, usually NB or androgenous people mutes the gender normes, using a medium in the spectrum. In the contrary, magypsies express both of the binary traits and are bold and colorful.
When I first looked into Mother 3 years ago, I had no distaste for the Magypsies, and that much stands the same to this day. I will admit, however, that I definitely had a more negative(?) reaction toward the hot spring scene. I didn't really understand what was going on, and the wording used for the fan translation, through my previous perspective, sounding off-putting. Looking back on it, I don't think Itoi or anyone else would want to imply any form of sexual actions, so I just decided I wasn't a big fan of the translation's writing rather than the scene itself. I think head's take on the hot spring scene is something more people should think about, and it makes a lot of sense. The idea of the scene being used to help the player recognize and interpret a form of their own transphobia is very interesting, but the statement might also be something easily interpreted as insulting towards whomever may read it, as the statement itself defines the scene as something of a "call-out" so to speak, even if that's not head's intention. These characters are probably the most underrated in the entire series, if I had to be honest. Even for as large as the lgbt group has become today, I think these characters continue to sit in a weird grey-zone regarding their popularity. Sometimes I feel like it's either black or white, where as you love em or you don't care for em at all. Overall, these characters are always interesting to me, personally. I love their goofy nature, the way they represent beauty and music, and overall the humor they bring to the game. I will never forget when Ionia just floats away in Osohe Castle, as that made me laugh a ton upon initially seeing the scene, as well as subsequent viewings. Great video btw, and good idea bringing in other folks to talk about this further!
I'm trans, i'm also a huge Mother fan and i love the Magypsies so much, theyre litterally powerful drags who just chill until they died wich is extremely iconic and based lmao
Yk i dont really see them as offensive, they aren't trying to make them bad? I dont know how to explain it but they aren't really mocking trans or lgbtq
I love them so much. Its a shame that they can easily be labeled as problematic and done away with, down to their race name having an apparent slur in it.
I played MOTHER 3 when I was young and never thought much of the hot springs scene. I just innocently assumed it was a complex ritual or something you couldn't show on a GBA. That and the Magipsy end it was done stood several steps behind Lucas. Not within arm reach. I didn't assume the worst. Maybe because I, the player, met them earlier in the game and knew they weren't malicious or anything. Maybe there was a period in my life where I would've assumed it. But putting myself in the shoes of the devs I knew nothing about at the time why would a game in good taste actually do that? And then possibly imply there's 6 more of them that could do the same if they wanted to? Doesn't make sense if it actually was what some people's gut feelings thought it was.
I do think it may be things like this that are the reason why in 2019 Mr. Itoi said “Mother 3 is best played when you’re older”. Perhaps some themes and subtext he might have intended are only gonna be picked up by teens and adults.
@@DaEgg123Definately. This game would probably get a PEGI 12. But it should be played when someone's mentally mature. Like someone who still likes the goofy stuff of MOTHER games.
Love this chanel, love this vid. Great work and an interesting presentation, i hope you grow a lot more, cause there's a lot of in depth work in here. Greetings
I think the hot spring scene is just meant to be a joke like... "Wait, what are you doing!? ENDURE WHAT? WHAT IS-.... oh, Ionia was just holding Lucas' head underwater. Lucas was meant to endure holding his breath. Haha, and here I thought it was something dirty, but it turns out Ionia was just helping us find our hidden potential." So I do think it's an innuendo, but it's not meant to be a statement on Ionia as a person, or on the magypsies as a whole. Them being who they are is incidental. If it had been any other character teaching Lucas PSI, they would've made the same joke. I don't think Itoi was like "Since Ionia is based on drag queens, I should make a sexual assault joke, because that's what drag queens do." No! That's not what he was thinking! And it's really unfair to assume that of him. He probably just didn't think people would assume it's some kind of joke at the expense of all trans or crossdressing people. Or a statement. Or an insult. Or ridicule. It was supposed to be all in good fun. Like all the other sexual innuendos in the game. If it had been Wess or Kumatora or Rope Snake in that hot spring, the joke would've been the same.
The first time i actually saw the hot spring scene (instead of just hearing about it on forums) i felt shocked because of the fade to black combined with Ionia's dialogue. I was confused and a little worried. But as soon as the scene faded back in, i burst out laughing. It was immediately clear that Lucas was pushed under the water, like a baptism or something. The shock provided some tension, that was immediately released once i knew what was actually happening. It was a weird joke that was maybe in poor taste, but it really doesn't feel like it should be as controversial as it is.
Oh good god I wanna see transphobic nintendo fans ragequit over this, I love these guys so much, trans rights yall, also: OKAMA FOREVER (lmao I had to say it just once since it fits)
To be honest, the one change I'd give the magypsies isn't related to their characters at all! It's the fact that the "gypsy" part of their name is now considered a slur against the roma people. I'm not sure what a replacement could be, but if a miracle happened and mother 3 got officially translated, they'd absolutely have to make a new name for them
19:30 I do see the point, but I still desagree about it being about transphobia. I don't care if a magipsies is trans, a man, a woman or non-binary, under that scene is just weather we trust this unknown person or we don't, not because any intern transphobia or something like that. (The first time I played I belived the point was to drown Lucas and give him a near death experience, and if a magipsie was around it would be safe)
i get what that person was going for with their interpretation, that’s actually a really interesting concept. but i feel like ionia’s identity isn’t really the issue for most people. it’s that ionia is an adult, and lucas is a child. implying that someone has some latent transphobia if that scene makes them uncomfortable is frankly pretty ridiculous. so let’s not accuse people of something like that based on a very specific interpretation of that scene’s purpose. i think this is a good video but yeah i don’t agree with that bit. but i’m glad you clarified that you think it’s valid for the scene to make someone uncomfortable.
I gotta be completely honest, considering the learning of new PSI abilities is preceded by a fever, I always just interpreted the hot spring scene as Ionia holding Lucas under hot water to raise his body temperature and stimulate PSI activation. Not even anything deep or symbolic, haha That aside, as a nonbinary person myself, I think the Magypsies are largely just fine aside from, of all things, the name of the group containing an anti-Romani slur. While they do perhaps bear some resemblance to stereotypical portrayals of transfeminine people, I think their portrayal as elegant, sympathetic, kindhearted characters sorta flips the potential negative impact of that on its head. The problem with those stereotypical depictions is the association of people with the relevant traits with (often sexual) moral depravity, not that that flavor of gender-nonconformity is in itself somehow bad. The Magypsies have almost the opposite intention behind them, portraying nonbinary and gender-nonconforming people as having lives and perspectives just as valuable and worthy of respect and additive to the world as anybody else’s. I get why their designs might evoke a negative gut reaction in people expecting them to be the same played-out transmisogynistic stereotypes, but I find that in reality they’re actually a pretty refreshing subversion.
I feel like if the game were to be remade/remastered, it would be best if the Magypsies designs were made more varied, since they all kinda go by the same sort of rigidly divided feminine this, masculine that template, and don't really diverge from that. (also they're all white which doesn't help much either)
I love Mother 3, but I have some thoughts on the Magypsies that this video failed to shake. The hot spring scene resembles a molestation scene. I feel this way not because of my own biases, but because of false stereotypes commonly placed on LGBT people. The idea that they're coming after your kids and that they're groomers is an extremely common stereotype. Even back then. If this scene was the only negative stereotyping the game did I could believe the mirror theory, but the game is transphobic in other ways. Alec mocks them in the scene caves with Flint. There's also a strange scene when Ionia is talking to the party and Boney is barking at them the whole time. Why would this be unless Boney had a reason to not like Ionia specifically? I might be wrong on a few of these things, I'm going to be playing Mother 3 again in a few days. If my opinions change I'll likely return to this video. I will say that Itoi's words make me believe he does actually have a lot of respect for the LGBT community. I just believe he fell short in some pretty major ways. That being said I still love the Magypsies overall, despite their dated portrayal of LGBT people.
I love these characters! They're all really cool and i love how integral they are to the plot. Correct me if i'm wrong though, but doesn't their name have a romani slur in it?
I never really gave much thought to the hot spring scene as something other than Lucas being almost drowned as a way to get his powers. That being said, saying that anyone who finds the scene a little strange is them being "subconsciously transphobic" is a very stupid sentiment. I bet anyone would feel weird about a child getting in a hotspring alone with an adult while the screen fades to black and the text literally says "don't struggle, just endure a little more", be their man, woman or trans.
The anti-trans bigot opinion is BS. How is observing a cutscene that outright looks like reap transphobic to ANY degree. I never observed it as reap when I first saw it due to my age and I never thought of anything transphobic, neither when I grew up and realized what happened. Put a similar looking old man in the place of Ionia and you will still get weirded out. And please tell me if anything I said here is inconsiderate or wrong because I really don't know how any of that makes sense.
Yeah I think accusing people of being transphobic bigots for being weirded out by the scene is completely ridiculous. I’d have found the scene equally off putting if it was a cis man too. It has nothing to do with the trans part, it’s the context of a grown adult and a child alone in a hot tub as the scene fades to black and the adult keeps telling him not to struggle
Mother 3 released in Japan in 2006, you can't possibly believe any of these new LGBTQIAP+ inventions were a considered by Itoi's before they were even invented. I can't stand this stuff.
I find it strange that that mystic being or aliens need to conform to how humans are… both sides are weird on this and reaching way too much to force it how they want it to be seen
Transphobic for question an adult doing somthing questionable with a child is utter bull shit. I don’t care what the person is like you should not leave children in situations to be abused period, its disgusting to try and gaslight people like that.
Lostmyhead’s take on the spring scene is absolutely beautiful. Thank you for including it in this amazing video!
I always loved the Magypsies and their outlook on life, even before I knew I was nonbinary. You’ve done a great job covering them and what they represent here, and how the devs wrote them into being.
I think Fassad could maybe represent self-doubt/hate that many trans/nb people go though, and in particular how it can occasionally turn into a push back to the old gender or aggression from the stress. Or maybe living life as a ‘chameleon’ - blending in with gender norms to be better accepted by society. It’s interesting that despite his purposely masculine appearance compared to his siblings, he still keeps the seashell house and the frilly decoration inside. I hope that goes deeper than "we wanted to make it clear he is a magypsy."
that theory about fassad is backed up by the fact that he only uses default attacks or bombs for the majority of the time you fight him, and you only learn that he can use PSI at the end of the fight in the sewer. maybe holding out on using what he understands is characteristic of magypsies, that being the usage of PSI, is his way of separating himself from his true identity and connection to them. maybe he has indeed internalized the hatred that came as a result of being someone who stood out from what is considered 'the norm' in society and later went to become everything the magypsies stood against
I can get how hating the magypsies is a bit transphobic but you cant convince me that the scene isnt weird at all. The scene is so unecessary for what is actually happening in the story that it makes me question if that was actually what Itoi wanted to convey
I literally never interpreted the PSI awakening scene as anything other than Ionia forcing Lucas's head underwater so that he can experience near-death to awaken his latent PSI. It's a common trope in media that someone's magical powers will manifest when they're in danger, and this was just another example of that. I was extremely surprised to see so many people online find the scene disturbing or worthy of special mention or attention as something unusual.
I think it's a mix of the dialog and the screen fading to black and the fact that Lucas gets his back turned to the Magypsy. Though I don't think Itoi would've put sexual assault in a Mother game.
@@FireBreatherMP1 That wasn't his intention anyway.
Lucas was getting baptized so he can be pure again after seeing his mom getting killed, that's my theory anyways
I just kinda thought the "just endure it!" was a little weird but when lucas popped his head back out I just assumed my head was in the gutter
This is exactly how I interpreted the scene on my first play-through. It didn't even occur to me a Mother game might have sexual assault in it until I started watching reviews that discussed it that way. I still don't think Itoi would have put that in the game, or wanted people to infer it. The way Ionia talks in the scene makes more sense when you recall how the Magypsies talked to Alec and Flint in Chapter 1 after sending Claus to his almost certain death, it's just how they are.
The hot spring scene being interpreted as sexual always just felt like a joke more than a serious thing to consider. The whole series feels very innocent in that regard, and I always just assumed that it was Lucas being drowned to force enough trauma to unleash his strongest psi. It's kinda like Muu training in that regard, an extremely uncomfortable and distressing test to see if a character was truly up to the difficult tasks up ahead. I could see a remake of the game handling it similarly as well, with the magypsy going under the water and the player having to hold A for an uncomfortable amount of time to keep Lucas under there for long enough.
The joke is a minor being in an uncomfortably sexual situation. It's something Japan is a lot more comfortable about than the west, but since Japan also has the biggest market of drawn child pornography, I don't blame the west for being wary.
I agree with you with Licas being drowned in the hot spring to unlessh his PSI powers and i dont see it as sexual assault at all
But seeing it the other way as being transphobic i dont know but thats justs me
Alot people think this way is weird because o the text and like placing??
Im not sure but yeah
Lucas* lmao
I never assumed the hot spring scene was unsavory while playing through in my early teens. I mainly saw that take on youtube and in forums. Actually, the main thing the scene resembles to me is a baptism, which in some denominations involves full submersion by a pastor standing right behind the person.
In my head that's a better explanation for Nintendo not wanting to bring the game over, being extremely strict on religious references in games like Ocarina of Time only a few years prior. Mother has always had direct religious references in Japanese and this may be one that Nintendo would have altered fully if they released in the US.
Through watching your video, i think that this scene was intentionally constructed with imagery that suggests many contexts in both English and Japanese culture, especially social rituals like onsen bathing that don't translate directly.
To be fair, if this one scene was the problem, they could easily just bring back the animation of Lucas being struck by lightning.
I think the music being a copyright disaster might be the actual reason.
A lot of it is REALLY close to existing music.
And the music industry sucks like that.
the magypsies do seem to get a bad rap these days, I understand that a lot of people just play the game and never see any of itoi's comments, but I think it's a shame that a lot of people seem to assume they're intended as purely hateful stereotypes. if you read dev comments it becomes clear they were created by open-minded, well intentioned people, even if some aspects of them have aged poorly. reading what itoi has said about them I definitely personally believe they weren't intended as transphobic, and would be very interested to see how he might approach creating similar characters now. great video!
You're so real for that , I think we need more camp queer character like them let's stop diabolising fab and camp queer looks just to fit in
I think the Ionia hot spring scene is meant to be Lucas getting shoved under the water until he can no longer hold his breath and the reason the screen fades to black is just as a joke.
Or it fades to black because the team didn't have the privilege of using the space memory of the gbacard to put even more cutscenes.
Could also be the case@@willbrgamer5137
yup. you're supposed to get your powers in near death situations, so Ionia just straight up almost drowned Lucas to get that.
@@neutralclownpose3928 fight or flight response
That’s what I thought too
The points you brought up at the end about fassad made me rethink my thoughts about him as a character . I interpreted his character as a closeted trans person that’s is choosing to stay in the closet for power,safety, and or internalized transphobia
As a trans man I knew I was trans for awhile but refused to come out of closet due of self hatred and fear. Also I find it interesting that in fassad’s room you can find hints of him being a magypsies. This kind of reminds me how I used to try my hardest to appear “cis gender” but still had “hints” of my tranness throughout my life.
And it’s also telling that out of all the magypsies he’s the one that “went bad” due him not excepting himself and his way of life
This was such a well made video and I’m glad you put in the effort of including trans voices ☺️
Can’t wait for your next vid!
Whenever someone would bring up that particular interpretation of the hot spring scene, I'd always feel somewhat confused and uncomfortable, because I personally never thought there was anything wrong about the scene, but I also feared there was something wrong with myself for not noticing.
However, after seeing other people's views on it, I think I can be more assured that making Lucas dive into the water was meant to be part of a special ritual to awaken PSI (thanks to one of the comments for mentioning baptism, as that's what I had in mind), though I can also see how one can reach the conclusion that cutting to black was meant to intentionally make you feel clueless and nervous. Honestly, I'd feel the same way in that situation, not knowing what the ritual might entail and then being told to stay submerged for an uncomfortably long time.
I am currently writing a College paper on the Magypsies and there representation. Thanks for making this video as it allowed me to see others perspectives in an organized way. It brung some insight on the English translation that I never heard about.
I got an 88 so I'm pretty happy. The paper kinda stinks though. :)
I think the hotspring scene is a victim of cultural differences not translating. In Japan public bathing in onsen is normal and very traditional and they don't have the same stereotypes about LGBT people. So when a Japanese person sees the hotspring scene they think it's Ionia is just putting Lucas's head in the water. But when someone from, say the United States sees it public bathing and nudity is not normal to them, and they see this older person with a young boy in an unusual context, and they already have a bias against LGBT people one of their first thoughts is going to be that something inappropriate is happening.
Something else I would like to point out is that the androgynous Magypsies having magical powers has similarities to many beliefs throughout history and the world. Some of the ancient Chinese dynasties thought people who crossed the gender binary (in their view) had special powers since they had attributes of both yin and yang. A number of native American cultures believed transgender people to have magical abilities as well.
i think your right (outside of the bias comment).
I have to say, I didn't ever think that saxaphones meant masculinity. I thought that light strings with a sax lead was standard femme fatal music.
I thought the magypsies were just interesting. Their gender nonconformity just seemed like a symbol of awakened spiritual power to me. Turns out, ancient Sumerian religion agrees.
I think it makes sense that it’s associated with masculinity, considering the saxophone is also associated with Flint.
I hold the belief that giving the Magypsies an exaggerated drag queen appearance helped to make the idea that they’re neither male or female and yet somehow both more readable on a small GBA screen.
Given the topic you were covering here, I think you did a a really good job getting your point across, whilst being as careful and sincere as possible. Great video :)
I figured they were otherwise drag queen variant characters in the game based on outward appearance. It is really, really depressing to see their fate when each planet needle is pulled after major boss battles akin to the Earthbound Sanctuary Guardian bosses.
As someone who’s trans, I’m not a huge fan of their designs but I do really enjoy their story and their characters. Sure, it would be nice if they had consistent pronouns but I don’t mind what they did with the final dialogue, for me it just comes off as relatable. I use she/her pronouns but lot of the time, people will refer to me differently, it’s annoying most of the time. Sometimes, people are just confused on what I am. Unlike me, the magypsies don’t seem bothered, adding onto their characters and androgyny. For me, I see their pronouns being any.
I mean, their design are quite suitable because they are old people/adults
🍞🍞🫓🫓
Get your life together, weirdo
I had always assumed the Magypsies would like any/all pronouns anyway. I always read them as gender fluid. They lean too hard on harmful design stereotypes, but writing wise I have no real problems.
I'm guessing you don't like the they/them pronouns
It's hard to explain, but there's always been something I related to in the nonconformity of the Magifolk's gender and presentation. I never felt they were insulting or ways to discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community. The Magifolk just seemed so apologetically themselves and it's something I really liked. Being agender/nonbinary myself, I feel like I fall into a void between gender expression, and seeing characters that do the same is really refreshing.
They're never really played off as jokes to me. They're the softer side to the doom and gloom of the rest of the game. A group of people who don't care in the slightest for fitting into the norms of society, and they accept their deaths with grace and calmness rather than the overwhelming grief that hangs over the deaths of the human characters.
Honestly there's been a lot of instances in the game where if any character *does* seem to make fun of them or treat the Magifolk wrong they're *shown* to be in the wrong. Like in Chapter 7 when Ionia is tied up and surrounded by Tazmilians. The people of Tazmily surrounding Ionia are seen as being rather cruel in that moment. They're rude towards her, and act kinda bigoted at times. They're so scared of her that they just watch her struggling with her ropes rather than helping her. But you're *meant* to realise the Tazmilians are just acting less like how they used to. They're scared of what's different, but it's never Ionia's fault.
Coming from a small town in a very conservative area, I can fully relate to that. Seeing how the people around me are scared of things they can't understand and turning that fear into hostility. I know I can't speak for everyone, but there's just something that resonates so much to me. I think I prefer some of the beta designs, but I still love their final designs. The only thing I really don't like or feel uncomfortable with is their name since the... g*psy slur isn't perhaps the greatest name they could have had.
I apologise for rambling a bit, I just personally really love these characters. I feel so bad when I see people talking the Magifolk down and I know I'm just one person, but I want to show how they *can* be such wonderful characters.
There's also the interesting fact that drag, especially early drag, often *was* for Trans people. Many used drag as a way to express a feminine or masculine side that they wished to have. It was an option for people who didn't realise they *could* be trans. It gave a good outlet for people to be themselves, and I think that also works so well with what the Magifolk represent.
Is gypsy really a slur, I've never heard anyone use it in deragotary ways and I live in a country where a lot of gypsy people exist? I mean I am not one of them so I wouldn't know but I don't think it is a slur... unless it is.
@@flintfrommother3gaming It is a slur used against the Romani people. Some streamers were using the name Magenie for them in their playthrough and I thought that was a fair replacement.
I think it's good to reflect on the fact that hateful language can become so normalized that we don't even realize we're using words meant to hurt people. I like to consider things like that
The video turned out great! Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts!!
If bread wanted to cut its genitals off
as a trans girl, i can say that the magypsies are great characters for sure! i love this video a lot.
quick question though, where did u get the high quality mother 3 songs for this video? if u could tell me i'd appreciate that. (actually nvm i read the credits a little more thoroughly)
They were done by a user called Aqua MIDI, and can be found by looking up his channel.
I believe that fassad is an allegory for strong internalized transphobia, someone who doesn’t want to accept their identity, and turns to bigotry and hate to try to get rid of those feelings. sadly in the past, some people I knew acted this way, being bigoted towards other trans people because they didn’t like who they were.
To me, the PSI awakening was supposed to be as a sort of baptism like ritual to awaken PSI. I never really saw it as weird when I played the first time and only noticed the second time thinking about other peoples thoughts on the scene.
Generally my opinion on the Magypsies is that they are overall fantastic representation that leans way too hard on shitty visual stereotypes in their designs and speech patterns. As you learn more about them the concerns there kind of strip away, but on first sight it for sure feels like it could go in a bad direction. I think that initial reaction of "oh god, this could go bad" is a big part of the reason for the interpretations of the hot spring scene. It's a bit of a reactionary view on the scene, but it's tough to get past that initial seemingly negative portrayal.
I cant describe how much i love the magypsys they are just so fabulous and kind, i cant even say wich one of them is my favourite because i like them ALL
with the scene in the spring- my personal interpretation is that its *meant* to be an allusion to the origin story of Achilles, where his mother dunks him under the water of a magical river to make him invulnerable. however, this does not come across well
as a transfeminine person myself, i dont agree with lostmyhead entirely. i feel that if someone was presented with an altered version of the scene where ionia was altered to not be androgenous, the average person would still have a similar takeaway
i do also agree with the take about it as a puberty metaphor, with it signaling the start of Lucas's journey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fassad plays an interesting role with all this, being the only one to be exclusively male presenting. was this always the case, or something he changed about himself when he made the deal with porky?
it also makes me think about what the composer said about the music, with the more masculine instrument (which is a horn/brass) disappearing after their death. fassad is very associated with brass instruments/horns as well via his reconstructed versions. when they are broken off, 'his heart is filled with hatred'. im conflicted on how to read him gender wise. is he simply transmasc or a symbol of conformity?
i personally dont mind the inconsistent pronouns, its totally possible they simply use all pronouns
i think the worst part of mother 3 is the myg//sies themselves having a slur in their name, really makes me sad :[
My biggest surprise was to understand that, the magypsies aren't (in a good way) ashamed for their non defining traits, usually NB or androgenous people mutes the gender normes, using a medium in the spectrum. In the contrary, magypsies express both of the binary traits and are bold and colorful.
When I first looked into Mother 3 years ago, I had no distaste for the Magypsies, and that much stands the same to this day.
I will admit, however, that I definitely had a more negative(?) reaction toward the hot spring scene. I didn't really understand what was going on, and the wording used for the fan translation, through my previous perspective, sounding off-putting. Looking back on it, I don't think Itoi or anyone else would want to imply any form of sexual actions, so I just decided I wasn't a big fan of the translation's writing rather than the scene itself.
I think head's take on the hot spring scene is something more people should think about, and it makes a lot of sense. The idea of the scene being used to help the player recognize and interpret a form of their own transphobia is very interesting, but the statement might also be something easily interpreted as insulting towards whomever may read it, as the statement itself defines the scene as something of a "call-out" so to speak, even if that's not head's intention.
These characters are probably the most underrated in the entire series, if I had to be honest. Even for as large as the lgbt group has become today, I think these characters continue to sit in a weird grey-zone regarding their popularity. Sometimes I feel like it's either black or white, where as you love em or you don't care for em at all.
Overall, these characters are always interesting to me, personally. I love their goofy nature, the way they represent beauty and music, and overall the humor they bring to the game. I will never forget when Ionia just floats away in Osohe Castle, as that made me laugh a ton upon initially seeing the scene, as well as subsequent viewings.
Great video btw, and good idea bringing in other folks to talk about this further!
I'm trans, i'm also a huge Mother fan and i love the Magypsies so much, theyre litterally powerful drags who just chill until they died wich is extremely iconic and based lmao
Yk i dont really see them as offensive, they aren't trying to make them bad? I dont know how to explain it but they aren't really mocking trans or lgbtq
I love them so much. Its a shame that they can easily be labeled as problematic and done away with, down to their race name having an apparent slur in it.
I played MOTHER 3 when I was young and never thought much of the hot springs scene. I just innocently assumed it was a complex ritual or something you couldn't show on a GBA.
That and the Magipsy end it was done stood several steps behind Lucas. Not within arm reach. I didn't assume the worst. Maybe because I, the player, met them earlier in the game and knew they weren't malicious or anything.
Maybe there was a period in my life where I would've assumed it. But putting myself in the shoes of the devs I knew nothing about at the time why would a game in good taste actually do that? And then possibly imply there's 6 more of them that could do the same if they wanted to? Doesn't make sense if it actually was what some people's gut feelings thought it was.
I do think it may be things like this that are the reason why in 2019 Mr. Itoi said “Mother 3 is best played when you’re older”. Perhaps some themes and subtext he might have intended are only gonna be picked up by teens and adults.
@@DaEgg123Definately. This game would probably get a PEGI 12. But it should be played when someone's mentally mature.
Like someone who still likes the goofy stuff of MOTHER games.
Love this chanel, love this vid. Great work and an interesting presentation, i hope you grow a lot more, cause there's a lot of in depth work in here. Greetings
With lucas being nearly drown and kumatora getting struck with lightning
The fuck did they do to claus to wake his power?
I always viewed the hotspring as akin to a baptism. Not necessarily in a Christian sense, but definitely a religious sense.
Fassad
amazing video as always, jonathan
wait fassad’s name being a homonym of “facade” never occurred to me until now 😭😭😭
YEAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for letting me talk! The vid turned out amazing!
this video is really beautiful and really made me think about myself as a person aswell the game and characters, thank you!
Great video!
amazing video!
Lostmyhead’s theory is really interesting too!
Loved this video man. i watched this eating some pizza
this was a fun video keep them coming
I think the hot spring scene is just meant to be a joke like... "Wait, what are you doing!? ENDURE WHAT? WHAT IS-.... oh, Ionia was just holding Lucas' head underwater. Lucas was meant to endure holding his breath. Haha, and here I thought it was something dirty, but it turns out Ionia was just helping us find our hidden potential."
So I do think it's an innuendo, but it's not meant to be a statement on Ionia as a person, or on the magypsies as a whole. Them being who they are is incidental. If it had been any other character teaching Lucas PSI, they would've made the same joke.
I don't think Itoi was like "Since Ionia is based on drag queens, I should make a sexual assault joke, because that's what drag queens do." No! That's not what he was thinking! And it's really unfair to assume that of him.
He probably just didn't think people would assume it's some kind of joke at the expense of all trans or crossdressing people. Or a statement. Or an insult. Or ridicule. It was supposed to be all in good fun.
Like all the other sexual innuendos in the game.
If it had been Wess or Kumatora or Rope Snake in that hot spring, the joke would've been the same.
I subscribed and I'm hoping to see more videos similar to this one
Mixolydia is my personal favorite!
The first time i actually saw the hot spring scene (instead of just hearing about it on forums) i felt shocked because of the fade to black combined with Ionia's dialogue. I was confused and a little worried.
But as soon as the scene faded back in, i burst out laughing. It was immediately clear that Lucas was pushed under the water, like a baptism or something. The shock provided some tension, that was immediately released once i knew what was actually happening.
It was a weird joke that was maybe in poor taste, but it really doesn't feel like it should be as controversial as it is.
Another banger vid about mom 3 😍
Um why is concept art Ionia such a baddie
Okay, so is it just me, or Is anyone else getting one piece vibes from the magypsie guys, they remind me of the okama in one piece, and its awesome
They're okama inspired that's why
@@isauldron4337 OKAMA FOREVER lol
Oh good god I wanna see transphobic nintendo fans ragequit over this, I love these guys so much, trans rights yall, also: OKAMA FOREVER (lmao I had to say it just once since it fits)
To be honest, the one change I'd give the magypsies isn't related to their characters at all! It's the fact that the "gypsy" part of their name is now considered a slur against the roma people. I'm not sure what a replacement could be, but if a miracle happened and mother 3 got officially translated, they'd absolutely have to make a new name for them
hell yes
19:30 I do see the point, but I still desagree about it being about transphobia.
I don't care if a magipsies is trans, a man, a woman or non-binary, under that scene is just weather we trust this unknown person or we don't, not because any intern transphobia or something like that.
(The first time I played I belived the point was to drown Lucas and give him a near death experience, and if a magipsie was around it would be safe)
i get what that person was going for with their interpretation, that’s actually a really interesting concept. but i feel like ionia’s identity isn’t really the issue for most people. it’s that ionia is an adult, and lucas is a child. implying that someone has some latent transphobia if that scene makes them uncomfortable is frankly pretty ridiculous. so let’s not accuse people of something like that based on a very specific interpretation of that scene’s purpose.
i think this is a good video but yeah i don’t agree with that bit. but i’m glad you clarified that you think it’s valid for the scene to make someone uncomfortable.
I gotta be completely honest, considering the learning of new PSI abilities is preceded by a fever, I always just interpreted the hot spring scene as Ionia holding Lucas under hot water to raise his body temperature and stimulate PSI activation. Not even anything deep or symbolic, haha
That aside, as a nonbinary person myself, I think the Magypsies are largely just fine aside from, of all things, the name of the group containing an anti-Romani slur. While they do perhaps bear some resemblance to stereotypical portrayals of transfeminine people, I think their portrayal as elegant, sympathetic, kindhearted characters sorta flips the potential negative impact of that on its head. The problem with those stereotypical depictions is the association of people with the relevant traits with (often sexual) moral depravity, not that that flavor of gender-nonconformity is in itself somehow bad. The Magypsies have almost the opposite intention behind them, portraying nonbinary and gender-nonconforming people as having lives and perspectives just as valuable and worthy of respect and additive to the world as anybody else’s. I get why their designs might evoke a negative gut reaction in people expecting them to be the same played-out transmisogynistic stereotypes, but I find that in reality they’re actually a pretty refreshing subversion.
And this is why we'll never get an official USA version.
I feel like if the game were to be remade/remastered, it would be best if the Magypsies designs were made more varied, since they all kinda go by the same sort of rigidly divided feminine this, masculine that template, and don't really diverge from that. (also they're all white which doesn't help much either)
Is the name MaGypsies best and the gypsy people aka Romani
I love Mother 3, but I have some thoughts on the Magypsies that this video failed to shake. The hot spring scene resembles a molestation scene. I feel this way not because of my own biases, but because of false stereotypes commonly placed on LGBT people. The idea that they're coming after your kids and that they're groomers is an extremely common stereotype. Even back then. If this scene was the only negative stereotyping the game did I could believe the mirror theory, but the game is transphobic in other ways. Alec mocks them in the scene caves with Flint. There's also a strange scene when Ionia is talking to the party and Boney is barking at them the whole time. Why would this be unless Boney had a reason to not like Ionia specifically? I might be wrong on a few of these things, I'm going to be playing Mother 3 again in a few days. If my opinions change I'll likely return to this video. I will say that Itoi's words make me believe he does actually have a lot of respect for the LGBT community. I just believe he fell short in some pretty major ways. That being said I still love the Magypsies overall, despite their dated portrayal of LGBT people.
I love these characters! They're all really cool and i love how integral they are to the plot. Correct me if i'm wrong though, but doesn't their name have a romani slur in it?
who's locria?
I never really gave much thought to the hot spring scene as something other than Lucas being almost drowned as a way to get his powers.
That being said, saying that anyone who finds the scene a little strange is them being "subconsciously transphobic" is a very stupid sentiment.
I bet anyone would feel weird about a child getting in a hotspring alone with an adult while the screen fades to black and the text literally says "don't struggle, just endure a little more", be their man, woman or trans.
😊
Is Kumatora Belong To The Misjudged?
She was raised by them
Oh Ok!
@@mazx2032 I take that's the reason Kumatora is so much unlike Ana and Paula in terms of personality.
are you eggman
As a Trans woman I don't like the hot spring scene much because it makes me fear of how cis people will interpret it and how it could spread more hate
The anti-trans bigot opinion is BS. How is observing a cutscene that outright looks like reap transphobic to ANY degree. I never observed it as reap when I first saw it due to my age and I never thought of anything transphobic, neither when I grew up and realized what happened. Put a similar looking old man in the place of Ionia and you will still get weirded out.
And please tell me if anything I said here is inconsiderate or wrong because I really don't know how any of that makes sense.
Yeah I think accusing people of being transphobic bigots for being weirded out by the scene is completely ridiculous. I’d have found the scene equally off putting if it was a cis man too. It has nothing to do with the trans part, it’s the context of a grown adult and a child alone in a hot tub as the scene fades to black and the adult keeps telling him not to struggle
put favorite thing as osu, opinion negated.
Jk just a detail i thought was pretty funny and i though i had to point out.
Yeah tbh, that footage is actually from a friend lol, they happen to like Osu
Never had a problem with them at all. Just guys helping me out to stop the main villain of the game.
No politics, just someone helping Lucas.
Mother 3 released in Japan in 2006, you can't possibly believe any of these new LGBTQIAP+ inventions were a considered by Itoi's before they were even invented.
I can't stand this stuff.
Itoi literally said otherwise
They're okama inspired
they arent new lmao
I find it strange that that mystic being or aliens need to conform to how humans are… both sides are weird on this and reaching way too much to force it how they want it to be seen
Transphobic for question an adult doing somthing questionable with a child is utter bull shit. I don’t care what the person is like you should not leave children in situations to be abused period, its disgusting to try and gaslight people like that.