To be here listening to Frederic Jameson speak is almost unbelievable for a twinkly eyed undergrad, and despite the temporal, spacial and digital removal it makes being alive right now feel like an honour.
I started out tonight revisiting a Mark Fisher lecture- he mentioned Fredric Jameson, who I've never read or heard speak. I'm glad I searched his name on RUclips, this is a great conversation.
I return to this every so often, still finding incredible insights I have missed from the last time. It is unthinkable to me that such a titan of thought has died while we still have yet to live up to the task he set before us here.
This is a great audience. They strike a perfect balance between comedic response to Prof. Jameson's subtle jokes and serious attention to his rallying cry.
Good talk. It's as if there's something here that converges upon ideas similar to that of Murray Bookchin and the Christian anarchists of Basque that led to Mondragon Corporation and of Leo Tolstoy.
Is this not what capitalism effectively does, where its economic superiority to old state communism arises from? By having everyone manage their own affairs within the grand capitalist machinery, you effectively relegate the work of maintenance of this machine to the fuel *powering* the machine; no wonder capitalism stands strong in all its crises; the more desperate the victims of capitalism the harder they work to maintain their oppression. Perhaps a metaphor is that of a drug addict; the more he abstains from his drug the more he needs it to survive against withdrawal.
This universal army as utopia seems mad. It seems mad but given Jameson's approach it is a shock-and-awe argument. It's utopia, afterall. The older I get the faster the clock ticks, and the less time I give for naivety. Jameson is worth some time. Youthful "mad" optimism, yes. Immature "mad" dogmatism, no. Wishing for political paradise does not conjure it into being. But I appreciate Jameson's critique. He grabs ideas by the jugular and struggled whether to squash socialism and postmodernism or let them run their course. Letting the Left spiral apart sounds condescending but it is what it is. Jameson's shock-and-awe argument (as the practical versus theoretical antagonism) hints at the unspoken concern of the militant politic, whether Left or Right. And to be real, every Vet I know is happy they won't die in the army. The army may embody ideas as purpose to die for but is not a social institution to die _in_. So religion, Jameson's previous utopian option, is where I landed. Religion can be (and has been) violent like a military, but religion is the vehicle to transcend beyond this social reality. Ironically, critiques of religion recognize that it fulfills various utopian ideas, like the "therapy" that Jameson says his universal army would provide. Religion satisfies the reality of the here and pushes through the madness of the future, as Tolstoy said. That practical realization happened for me as people I loved passed away beyond the veil, and they reminded me the end of my time ticked nearer. RIP Jameson.
I was expecting Jameson, homme d´lettre, instead I got Commandante Jameson. At least he tricked me into thinking this for a moment - scholar and entertainer that he is.
When people are able to work to serve to sustainable, not for employed, exploit and exploited. People are able to sense and access the collective practical information and wisdom knowledge for self-awareness and qualified qualities.
It is really fascinating to think that a younger, more naively idealistic, version of me watched this very video a few years ago and felt like it was utterly genius... Now, I see the mad trying to will reality into an "ideal" version of itself through self-indoctrination and wishful thinking.
Mmm, yes. It seems mad but given Jameson's approach it is a shock-and-awe argument. It's utopia, afterall. The older I get the faster the clock ticks, and the less time I give for naivety. Jameson is worth some time. Youthful "mad" optimism, yes. Immature "mad" dogmatism, no. Wishing for political paradise does not conjure it into being. But I appreciate Jameson's critique. He grabs ideas by the jugular and struggled whether to squash socialism and postmodernism or let them run their course. Letting the Left spiral apart sounds condescending but it is what it is. Jameson's shock-and-awe argument (as the practical versus theoretical antagonism) hints at the unspoken concern of the militant politic, whether Left or Right. And to be real, every Vet I know is happy they won't die in the army. The army may embody ideas as purpose to die _for_ but is not a social institution to die _in_. So religion, Jameson's previous utopian option, is where I landed. Religion can be (and has been) violent like a military, but religion is the vehicle to transcend beyond this social reality. Ironically, critiques of religion recognize that it fulfills various utopian ideas, like the "therapy" that Jameson says his universal army would provide. Religion satisfies the reality of the here and pushes through the madness of the future, as Tolstoy said. That practical realization happened for me as people I loved passed away beyond the veil, and they reminded me the end of my time ticked nearer. RIP Jameson.
I am flabbergasted by the ignorance of human nature, of anthropology, of social relations I hear in these presentations, discussions, exchanges. It would be comedic were it not taken seriously by participants. This ideology is truly 'wirklichkeitsfern.'
"It would be comedic were it not taken seriously by participants" It took a lot of work and determination to bring the world to this level of confusion and idiocy. Got to keep your eyes on THAT BALL.
I don't think he's doing anyone any favors by blending satire and philosophy. How can you tell when he's joking and when he's sincere? I'm assuming he's not doing a really complicated right-wing send-up of the ivory tower.
@@addammadd It is my expressed intent to read a print book every night for one hour. So if you want to call me dense I can accept that, but to call me unread is wrong.
He is pretty clear that he is playing with the idea of utopia. But I think there's some pretty direct and out in the open criticism and analysis of our present national and global political situation. He is essentially talking about different utopian thinkers in the context of an imaginary proposal for a society that would answer to and dissolve the most horrible things about the late capitalist world we live in
For me I think a helpful context for the type of nationalization of institutions that FJ was proposing in his imaginary utopia is like the nationalization of the banks and land that Fidel Castro brought about after the Cuban revolution, and the nationalization of institutions and land in Soviet Russia.
After 12:00, Jameson should have reflected a little on his sounding rather thrilled at the idea of 'revolutionary violence' which seems here to be merely pornographic for him. Complimenting Hamas hasn't dated very well. Also, it just depresses me that someone of his learning and precision can talk seemingly naively about a figure like Lenin.
Tbf, he probably meant to say Hezbollah, which is a more developed example of a non-state actor that provides socially reproductive infrastructure at scale
@@aljackson8870 What on earth do you mean by 'socially reproductive infrastructure', let alone the same 'at scale'? Ah, I see that that is sociologists' jargon. All the more reason not to use such terms. Also, he didn't mention Hezbollah, but rather Hamas.
I think he seems an incredibly humble and wholesome guy. Considering how brilliant and knowledgeable he is, being like, THE foremost Marxist cultural critic of our time, and the first one to explain postmodern from a solid Marxist historical materialist perspective
What does possession pf certificate of critical theory do once you lool for a job? Isn't that what Theodor Adorno called " the commodifatuon of culture"? Hehehe
Aside from claiming that social democracy is dead, Jameson's only other point, which Aronowitz did not comprehend, was about reinstituting the draft. No reasons given other than General Flynn's lamebrain efforts in tandem with Trump's bumbling. Historically, a draft is instituted when a war needs to be fought, otherwise, it is not necessary and a small professional military is sufficient. Both of these leftists however are no really aware of soldiers' views and believe that soldiers during Vietnam protested, whereas it was usually only Black Panther aligned soldiers who acted improperly, i.e. fragging, drug dealing. Usually, the left amps up hype about 'babykillers.' Jameson and Aronowitz both seem to think that reform is impossible in government, but they give no examples. There is no reason why problems cannot be identified and addressed to produce solutions and remedies. At best, their call for new forms of social organization is appropriate and not beyond the typical student's ability to understand despite the repression of organizational dynamics in corporations and cultural institutions.
Awwq cmon Capitalism cares about our health, and privacy, our education, and family values, war, and banking, finance, governments, society, indigenous peoples, food, farming, production, poisons, war, arms, development, destruction, and still have not met this Capitalism whoever it is they should run for government? I would vote for Capitalism, they care.
To be here listening to Frederic Jameson speak is almost unbelievable for a twinkly eyed undergrad, and despite the temporal, spacial and digital removal it makes being alive right now feel like an honour.
I started out tonight revisiting a Mark Fisher lecture- he mentioned Fredric Jameson, who I've never read or heard speak. I'm glad I searched his name on RUclips, this is a great conversation.
I return to this every so often, still finding incredible insights I have missed from the last time. It is unthinkable to me that such a titan of thought has died while we still have yet to live up to the task he set before us here.
This is a great audience. They strike a perfect balance between comedic response to Prof. Jameson's subtle jokes and serious attention to his rallying cry.
I was a part of this audience. Fred was great, as was Stanley.
They let FJ speak at 9:12
Thank you sir
LOL
Good talk. It's as if there's something here that converges upon ideas similar to that of Murray Bookchin and the Christian anarchists of Basque that led to Mondragon Corporation and of Leo Tolstoy.
Absolutely
This discussion of utopia landed in the territory of very urgent & practical matters...
Very valid insightful comment
"Everyone their own bureaucrat."
Is this not what capitalism effectively does, where its economic superiority to old state communism arises from? By having everyone manage their own affairs within the grand capitalist machinery, you effectively relegate the work of maintenance of this machine to the fuel *powering* the machine; no wonder capitalism stands strong in all its crises; the more desperate the victims of capitalism the harder they work to maintain their oppression.
Perhaps a metaphor is that of a drug addict; the more he abstains from his drug the more he needs it to survive against withdrawal.
Now lets see all the beurocrats tackle extinction and climate catastrophe
This universal army as utopia seems mad. It seems mad but given Jameson's approach it is a shock-and-awe argument. It's utopia, afterall. The older I get the faster the clock ticks, and the less time I give for naivety. Jameson is worth some time. Youthful "mad" optimism, yes. Immature "mad" dogmatism, no. Wishing for political paradise does not conjure it into being. But I appreciate Jameson's critique. He grabs ideas by the jugular and struggled whether to squash socialism and postmodernism or let them run their course. Letting the Left spiral apart sounds condescending but it is what it is. Jameson's shock-and-awe argument (as the practical versus theoretical antagonism) hints at the unspoken concern of the militant politic, whether Left or Right. And to be real, every Vet I know is happy they won't die in the army. The army may embody ideas as purpose to die for but is not a social institution to die _in_. So religion, Jameson's previous utopian option, is where I landed. Religion can be (and has been) violent like a military, but religion is the vehicle to transcend beyond this social reality. Ironically, critiques of religion recognize that it fulfills various utopian ideas, like the "therapy" that Jameson says his universal army would provide. Religion satisfies the reality of the here and pushes through the madness of the future, as Tolstoy said. That practical realization happened for me as people I loved passed away beyond the veil, and they reminded me the end of my time ticked nearer. RIP Jameson.
love this guy
I was expecting Jameson, homme d´lettre, instead I got Commandante Jameson. At least he tricked me into thinking this for a moment - scholar and entertainer that he is.
Rather prophetic considering "Operation Warp Speed."
This is a great lecture to share with anyone who (still) believes in cápitalism, communism and infinite economic growth ... Smashed the hoaxes
every comment on this video except mine is wrong. i am very smart.
You are. You should become president.
@@thegeneralstrike6747 thank u r now my vp pick welcome to the team
fax, no printer
53:12 is Charles Fourier (not Jean Ferrier) - error in subtitles
I still believe in the Revolution
Strong plan.
When people are able to work to serve to sustainable, not for employed, exploit and exploited. People are able to sense and access the collective practical information and wisdom knowledge for self-awareness and qualified qualities.
It is really fascinating to think that a younger, more naively idealistic, version of me watched this very video a few years ago and felt like it was utterly genius... Now, I see the mad trying to will reality into an "ideal" version of itself through self-indoctrination and wishful thinking.
Mmm, yes. It seems mad but given Jameson's approach it is a shock-and-awe argument. It's utopia, afterall. The older I get the faster the clock ticks, and the less time I give for naivety. Jameson is worth some time. Youthful "mad" optimism, yes. Immature "mad" dogmatism, no. Wishing for political paradise does not conjure it into being. But I appreciate Jameson's critique. He grabs ideas by the jugular and struggled whether to squash socialism and postmodernism or let them run their course. Letting the Left spiral apart sounds condescending but it is what it is. Jameson's shock-and-awe argument (as the practical versus theoretical antagonism) hints at the unspoken concern of the militant politic, whether Left or Right. And to be real, every Vet I know is happy they won't die in the army. The army may embody ideas as purpose to die _for_ but is not a social institution to die _in_. So religion, Jameson's previous utopian option, is where I landed. Religion can be (and has been) violent like a military, but religion is the vehicle to transcend beyond this social reality. Ironically, critiques of religion recognize that it fulfills various utopian ideas, like the "therapy" that Jameson says his universal army would provide. Religion satisfies the reality of the here and pushes through the madness of the future, as Tolstoy said. That practical realization happened for me as people I loved passed away beyond the veil, and they reminded me the end of my time ticked nearer. RIP Jameson.
Does anyone have an idea of the text this talk by FJ is based on?
An American Utpia
Who's the writer he mentions at 45:18 re. the concept of development? Robert Courts?
Alex Chambers I think he refers to Robert Kurz. Theorist from Germany. Died in 2012.
Only one of his works is translated into English right now, The Substance of Capital. great read on value criticism
So is the goal de-growth,destroy,and then rebuild in a nutshell?
Awesome!
I am flabbergasted by the ignorance of human nature, of anthropology, of social relations I hear in these presentations, discussions, exchanges. It would be comedic were it not taken seriously by participants. This ideology is truly 'wirklichkeitsfern.'
human nature is a cultural myth
"It would be comedic were it not taken seriously by participants"
It took a lot of work and determination to bring the world to this level of confusion and idiocy.
Got to keep your eyes on THAT BALL.
I agreed almost entirely with Jameson and disagreed almost entirely with the second speaker.
Because it was seized and you were made to believe it
@@TheAmazingVector What was seized? I dont remember the context from 10 months ago.
I don't think he's doing anyone any favors by blending satire and philosophy.
How can you tell when he's joking and when he's sincere?
I'm assuming he's not doing a really complicated right-wing send-up of the ivory tower.
In fact, he’s done you a personal favor by highlighting the need-which you’ve clearly let go unaddressed-to read more.
@@addammadd It is my expressed intent to read a print book every night for one hour.
So if you want to call me dense I can accept that, but to call me unread is wrong.
What exactly do you think he was satirizing?
He is pretty clear that he is playing with the idea of utopia. But I think there's some pretty direct and out in the open criticism and analysis of our present national and global political situation. He is essentially talking about different utopian thinkers in the context of an imaginary proposal for a society that would answer to and dissolve the most horrible things about the late capitalist world we live in
Did I hear micky mouse at 16:45 - 16:50?
Heard "renationalization of the army" and had a flash of what Trump's deportation force will look like. Probably just post-election ptsd.
For me I think a helpful context for the type of nationalization of institutions that FJ was proposing in his imaginary utopia is like the nationalization of the banks and land that Fidel Castro brought about after the Cuban revolution, and the nationalization of institutions and land in Soviet Russia.
Religion no good for that state within a state; "only the army" is satisfactory.
Does anyone have an image of the political cartoon FJ talks about around the 26:00 mark?
9:46
Too comfortable/weak on the real topic: 'politics is agency'.
Fred would draft the entire population. It is not really a conversation.
Gwen Hennacy
It should be.
good
11:42
After 12:00, Jameson should have reflected a little on his sounding rather thrilled at the idea of 'revolutionary violence' which seems here to be merely pornographic for him. Complimenting Hamas hasn't dated very well. Also, it just depresses me that someone of his learning and precision can talk seemingly naively about a figure like Lenin.
Tbf, he probably meant to say Hezbollah, which is a more developed example of a non-state actor that provides socially reproductive infrastructure at scale
@@aljackson8870 What on earth do you mean by 'socially reproductive infrastructure', let alone the same 'at scale'? Ah, I see that that is sociologists' jargon. All the more reason not to use such terms. Also, he didn't mention Hezbollah, but rather Hamas.
Is this a Manifesto? Did someone elect you while I was distracted? What grandiosity!
Love the fake humility reminds me of Meghan Markle!
I think he seems an incredibly humble and wholesome guy. Considering how brilliant and knowledgeable he is, being like, THE foremost Marxist cultural critic of our time, and the first one to explain postmodern from a solid Marxist historical materialist perspective
American Utopia = Oxymoron
+Norman Keena One of the best comments I have ever read.
Eurotrash- a redundancy.
@@normankeena i'd love to see what ur mind looks like unfettered
I think rather, America and Utopia are contraries:).
@@LeftPlus607 America 🇺🇸 is the only civilization that has any business existing. ❤️. Learn to live with that fact cutie 🥰 pie 🥧 😘.
Johnson Frank Lopez Brian Smith Anna
"I SPEAK REALLY LOUD AND then I mumble mumble mumble mumble" *slurps water* "fumbles with cap*
First
I'd love to see Fred Jameson do a TED talk!
ew, no
Rofl
Sure
What does possession pf certificate of critical theory do once you lool for a job? Isn't that what Theodor Adorno called " the commodifatuon of culture"? Hehehe
Aside from claiming that social democracy is dead, Jameson's only other point, which Aronowitz did not comprehend, was about reinstituting the draft. No reasons given other than General Flynn's lamebrain efforts in tandem with Trump's bumbling. Historically, a draft is instituted when a war needs to be fought, otherwise, it is not necessary and a small professional military is sufficient. Both of these leftists however are no really aware of soldiers' views and believe that soldiers during Vietnam protested, whereas it was usually only Black Panther aligned soldiers who acted improperly, i.e. fragging, drug dealing. Usually, the left amps up hype about 'babykillers.' Jameson and Aronowitz both seem to think that reform is impossible in government, but they give no examples. There is no reason why problems cannot be identified and addressed to produce solutions and remedies. At best, their call for new forms of social organization is appropriate and not beyond the typical student's ability to understand despite the repression of organizational dynamics in corporations and cultural institutions.
@@fredwelf8650 someone didn't get the joke
Capitalism doesn't care what Fredric Jameson thinks of it.
fred.....think? nahhhh
lol capitalism is an economic system dummy it doesn't care if you like it either, its proliferation comes from your ignorance of your own ignorance.
Awwq cmon Capitalism cares about our health, and privacy, our education, and family values, war, and banking, finance, governments, society, indigenous peoples, food, farming, production, poisons, war, arms, development, destruction, and still have not met this Capitalism whoever it is they should run for government? I would vote for Capitalism, they care.
@@thegeneralstrike6747 every ideology has winners and losers. They are indiscriminate.
This guy is the personification of yada yada yada.
El libro Muerte y vida del movimiento obrero estadounidense, del académico y activista Stanley Aronowitz.
9:15