@@cyan_oxy6734 most find a buffer of any kind a reduction as they kill the hard stop of metal on metal if they work correctly. Not your point, but holds true,
Hi, I'm a video editor- we use speech to text these days to automatically transcribe subtitles so it's possible the editing software picked up on the "uh" 😂 just thought I'd leave this here in case anyone thinks people are manually writing all of these
Bro, you think people are still manually translating videos? You'd think it would be obvious that they're not, with all of the horribly botched subtitles on every video with the slightest background noise. You sweet summer child. (just giving you crap)
The Auto 5 is such a cool gun, and really pleasant to shoot. I have a pre-war one made in Belgium, and it runs beautifully despite being almost 100 years old
Yup, I have both my father's (1964) and my grandfather's (1938) Belgian Browning A-5s. I still use them both on the range and in the field. My father used to say that it is like shooting a shock absorber.
I’m a big fan of the Auto-5s myself! My dad was a huge fan, his first shotgun was a Belgium made A5, which he gifted to me as my first shotgun! He bought every single A5 he had the opportunity to buy! I also own a few Remington 11s and 48s! My 11-48s will eat anything I throw at it, while the A5s only eat high class, high brass but I still love them! 😂
I bet the two most rare would be blow forward and primer actuated. Blow forward is the opposite of blow back. Prime actuated I bet is the rarest. It uses the power of the primer of the cartridge to basically act like a piston to push the bolt back. If I'm not mistaken one of the prototype for the M1-Garand was a primer actuated design. The downside is you'd have to design a cartridge that has its primer basically blow out when fired to work. An honorable mention would be both a gas operated air gun that uses argon gas and no gunpowder, and electricity fired guns that are caseless. There's guns out there that use the electric fireing system that have achieved one million rounds per/minute.
Storm something.. stack volley so mill a min is kinda a misnomer, just add more barrels. But still cool af to watch it unload, they made a grenade launcher version too😂
Dude those air powered guns are wild. I was coming out of the woods other day an met a dude with one. I noticed his rifles appearance an asked about it... Wow. It shot a .50 cal slug, looked kinda like a old school muzzleloader sabot at 700-800 ft per second. Turns out dude made a dumb mistake an got a felony so that was only way he could hunt deer with a "gun". He fired off for me , super quiet an put a big ass hole in a stump lol.
@@joshuagann8026If you haven't, do yourself a favor and look into "air bolts". They've got bolts (like, crossbow bolts) that can be fired out of airguns at over 500 fps now. You could feasibly take down a bear with an airgun, isn't that wild?
This channel does a great job at describing and showing how the mechanics work in the firearms being highlighted. It isn't always an easy thing to do, so thank you for that.
I scooped up one of these at a gun show years ago. Kicks pretty hard, not gonna lie. But the historical aspect got me. It's stamped as Remington, but also lists three patents from Browning. Serial number is in the lower 3000s so Mr Browning would have still been in the factory 😎 (FN factory technically, but contracted with Remington to produce his shotgun)
@@leviwoodring6101 true. Similar long recoil actions in these first semi auto shotguns. Mine would be designated "autoloader" as it was in the first year of production. Later called the "sportsman" and finally the "model 11"
I have several 11-87s that are long recoil, the speed, or lack thereof forces you to be more deliberate with the follow up shot as you have time during the cycle.
@@danmclennan7930 The big difference between the two is the hump. The model 11 has the flatback style hump, the 11-48 has the modern look without the hump. Personally have an A5 in 12 and model 11s in 16 and 20, real treat to shoot.
I love the way that Winchester model 1911 feels when you shoot it. I found one on accident and picked it up and thats where i learned about long recoil from researching what this strange shotgun is.
Isn't that the "widow maker"? Browning had the patent rights for the bolt handle thus in order to open the action the barrel had to be grabbed and pulled back toward the receiver. Some people lacking strength to pull the barrel would place the butt on the ground and push the barrel back, sometimes placing their face over the muzzle
@@Average_M05_Enjoyer Hmmm...then I better remove the charging handle from my Rem model 11. Wouldn't want to get a patent infringement! Sorry...couldn't help myself. Yes...Remington model 11s have charging handles.
Its main advantage is that you dont need a super heavy bolt or springs since the mass of the barrel also helps with delaying opening. You probably couldn't run the bolt on a Barrett if it was entirely dependent on the mass of the bolt and strength of the springs to delay unlocking.
@tangojuliett1230 I am not really intrested in a already functional design. I have a INCREDIBLY stupid idea, and i want to make said stupid idea "useable" by thinking out out... How big of a caliber do you want your single-shot rifle to be able to fire?
Make sure you give it a dumb name like timber horse plinko tactical 38 but the number has to have no relation to the firearm, not the patent or ammunition type.
With the long recoil, the lock is unlocked from the barrel, when it goes forward to return and the pressure is already low. This allows the use of ammunition with a different power than the nominal one. Almost like a cannon.🤔
The Browning A5 and a few Remington models use "Long recoil." I was amazed, at 10 years old, that the A5 barrel actually moved, all the way through chamber, while locked onto the receiver. It would be another 4 years before I graduated to an auto loader. If I remember correctly, I was given a Remington 11-48 to use for duck season. I had been using an old bolt action 410 gauge., lol.
I have a Remington Model 11 made in 1922. Winchester wouldn't make the Auto-5 for John Browning, but Remington did. Mine is old enough that it has a firing pin return spring.
@@jobriath11I have a super lightweight "Sportsman 48" 16 gauge. Kicks like a mule because of its [lack of] weight but boy is it nice for pheasant and grouse hunting.
It seems like long recoil system is good for semi-automatic firearm chambered in high recoil ammunition since the system reduces instant kickback using inertia from big mass of the bolt and the barrel combined, but the inertia makes the entire gun back and forth.
This is a Winchester 1911 SL. It wanted and thought it would be the Auto 5 but no luck. No luck for the people who shot it either. Hence the reason it’s nick name is the widow maker.
The AN94 used a similar system, where the barrel will move with the bolt initially, but simultaneously chambering another round and firing it by the time they reach the end of their travel. Making the “hyper burst” which if I remember correctly shoots at about 1,000rpm.
I think just about any action that doesn’t involve a gas system can function with black powder, at least for a short time in an emergency. It would need to be thoroughly cleaned after practically every other magazine, though.
Ian, I have one that was given to me 40 years ago by an old hunting buddy of mine that has since passed. I love it, and use it for trap on occasion. But I found out that you never ever ever never take the buttock spring out!!!Great video thank you
😂 and why is that? is it 6 foot long or takes a 1000 lbs. of force to compress? sounds like a funny story behind this ? I have an old winchester 74 22lr that I dont enjoy disassembling. it's weird.
Gotta give mankind some credit.....we build some amazing stuff out of metal. Those that learn actual machining are worth their weight in......unmachined gold!
Well...they move in tandem because the case exerts outward pressure on the chamber causing friction, which pulls the barrel. Also as the wad leaves the barrel it applies rearward pressure to the barrel. These forces combined with the pressure against the bolt face move the entire unit as one. So you are correct in saying the barrel doesn't, on its own, push the bolt back... it's a combination of forces.
The barrel pushes the bolt back due to recoil. Hence long recoil system. If the barrel is pushing the bolt back equal to or greater than the length of the cartridge, before it unlocks, then it is called long recoil. If the distance is less than the length of the cartridge, before unlocking, then it is called a short recoil system.
I think you're right... the expansion of gasses from ignition exerts force in all directions; primarily axially along the barrel (forwards and backwards) and also against the sides of the chamber, radial (and perpendicular) to the axis of the barrel. The radial forces are contained by the cartridge and/or chamber walls. This forces the majority of the gas expansion (and force) to travel along the barrel axis, both forward and backward. Since the barrel is just a long tube, the axial forces don't exert primarily on the barrel walls, and even if they did, it would push the barrel out, not back. The forward axial force propels the bullet. The backward axial force can only act on the face of the bolt (through the rear of the cartridge), not directly on the barrel itself. As such, the backward force acting on the bolt face pushes the bolt back, which pulls the barrel along with it until it unlocks at the rear of travel.
@@khallrik Most of what you said is true. However...the friction between the case and chamber wall also causes the barrel to move backward...because it's the only direction that the barrel can move. Therefore its the only direction in which the release of energy can occur until the projectile leaves the barrel. If you had a barrel with no bolt behind it sitting on a rest and you detonated a cartridge within the chamber, the entire barrel would move backward before the empty case would exit the chamber and fly out the back. The now empty case doesn't disengage with the chamber walls until the pressure is released and the case cools and shrinks slightly allowing it to disengage from the chamber walls. This force combined with the backward force exerted upon the muzzle from the projectile leaving the barrel both act to push the barrel rearward. All these forces act in tandem to move the barrel and bolt rearward. The barrel doesn't push the bolt back on its own...and neither does the bolt pull the barrel back on its own.
I always wondered with long recoil if the force is pushing the bolt back and dragging the barrel with, or if its pushing the barrel back and by extension the bolt. If the bolt is pulling the barrel rearward then its kinda acting like a straight blowback with a delayed unlock and a variable mass to slow it down. If the barrel is pushing the bolt backwards it would almost be kinda like a gas trap system but venting gas forwards and thus thrusting the barrel backwards like a jet
I've thought about that. I think it's mostly the barrel, although both experience rearward pressure and push backwards. If you think about it, simple blowback guns still impart a recoil force to the stock and to the shooter, even though the bolt itself does not push on the stock much.
It's not what pulls or pushes what, it's where the recoil energy goes and how this affects the affected parts. All parts in the system (including the shooter and even the earth he's standing on😮) want to recoil. Since barrel, bolt and casing are locked together, the recoil acts on them as if it was a single peace. So no pushing or pulling. In a gun that is unlocked before the bolt moves backwards at first, in the locked state, the whole rifle (and the shooter )acts as one, but when it unlocks, you more or less have two parts, each with their own momentum, and thus speed. The bolt has less mass then the remaining rifle (and shooter) and speeds backwards. The only pulling is done by the extractor because the casing is very lightweight, doesn't cary much momentum, so doesn't move as fast as the bolt so needs to be helped by said bolt and extractor. (And the brass is also somewhat sticky, but that's a different story). This also explains why if you don't hold on to a gun, you get malfunctions.
I'd like to see it's long term performance so a materials evaluation and shape analysis can be done. Its rarity makes me suspicious that this may be a hidden gem. Recoil is a serious consideration for operation.
Had a Remington sportsman 48 detonate a Walmart target shell and had the majority of the cartridge come out the action except the hull was about 8" up the barrel
This would create a sighting zeroing nightmare. By the nature of the barrel travelling to the rear, this would create a major consistency issue with the forward sight.
Browning’s first semiautomatic shotgun employed such an action. It kicked like a mule, and had the dubious nickname of “widowmaker,” because cycling the action meant grabbing the barrel and pulling it rearward. If one was careless, he could find himself staring at the muzzle whilst racking a shell into the chamber.
These were regarded as dangerous. To initially charge the weapon you ‘rack’ the barrel itself. They knurled a grip on it for this purpose. So they imagined people charging them from the hip or even while shouldered. Next thing you know people would charge them with the butt on the ground. Sometimes they were also know to slam fire.
Seems really inefficient since the friction of the round on the rifling wants to push the barrel forwards - which is how blow-forward guns operate. Also, the barrel springing forward like that will give a weird reverse-recoil impulse. I've never understood this design...
No wonder this is rare. Sure you get some felt recoil reduction, but in exchange you're basically milking a cow by holding the tits in place and lifting the whole animal up. Some added complexity, and you definitely can't put a scope on that barrel because with the travel distance it would break any normal scope over the face of the shooter so you either get a lot of opportunities for inaccuracy or you need really expensive high end machining to make sure the barel goes back exactly the same every single time.
That seems overly complicated for no reason; Gatling guns already work by using the rotation of the barrels to unlock the bolts, introducing a long recoil system just adds more moving parts, more weight, and the potential for jams caused by mis-timing.
Wait, wouldn't this work really well with cased telescope ammunition? Have the case have a rim on the front that locks into a frontal ejection part attached to the moving barrel.
Im thinking the shotgun my grandpa gave me may have been a long recoil: even though i cleaned the bajeesus out of it, the thing would never fully cycle, it would fire, usually eject, but always fail to feed. The barrel would often be slid back into the receiver along with the bolt, hence my suspicion. Has a finger bar for the bolt, used to go home after a day of shooting clays with a worn knuckle from cycling the darn thing 🤣 Everyone told me i needed to shoot full/buck loads to get it to cycle, bird shot was too light? Shot some 00, same problem.
I'd imagine the floating barrel could cause some accuracy issues. But I am no expert. Is this a problem these types of guns experience? I know nowadays we do have highly accurate rifles that have floating barrels such as the .50 cal semiauto. Im not sure on how they addressed any accuracy issues (if any) however
I believe this is the Winchester M11. I have the Remington M11 which has a charging handle instead of having to grip the barrel to cycle the action. Those killed a bunch of people.
The GM6 Lynx is a more modern example of where this is actually a good idea. In that gun, the system actually reduces felt recoil.
And with the length of it's travel, it has that awesome stowage position where the barrel is held back. The release from that is so awesome.
Doesn't the design "reduce" recoil by default since the barrel is moving against a spring, making the force less sharp and more spread out.
@@cyan_oxy6734 most find a buffer of any kind a reduction as they kill the hard stop of metal on metal if they work correctly. Not your point, but holds true,
Does there movement of the barrel affect accuracy in any noticeable way?
@@cyan_oxy6734yes.
I love how the Frommer Stop is just chilling there.
"I'm here too, guys! I don't need to be long recoil, but I am!"
Don't need long recoil to look slick as hell.
The frommer stop is long recoil which is why it's there
@@DustyGammait needed to be long recoil for patent reasons. Same reason why the Winchester 1911 didn't (couldn't) have a charging handle.
Thank you for putting the subtitles for “uh”. Really puts it all together lol
I would have never known what he was talking about without that "uh" so I'm glad it was included 😂
I just love old humpbacks.
Hi, I'm a video editor- we use speech to text these days to automatically transcribe subtitles so it's possible the editing software picked up on the "uh" 😂 just thought I'd leave this here in case anyone thinks people are manually writing all of these
Bro, you think people are still manually translating videos? You'd think it would be obvious that they're not, with all of the horribly botched subtitles on every video with the slightest background noise.
You sweet summer child.
(just giving you crap)
The Auto 5 is such a cool gun, and really pleasant to shoot. I have a pre-war one made in Belgium, and it runs beautifully despite being almost 100 years old
Yup, I have both my father's (1964) and my grandfather's (1938) Belgian Browning A-5s. I still use them both on the range and in the field. My father used to say that it is like shooting a shock absorber.
Praise to J.M.B.
Got a flawless og model 11 (police issue)
I’m a big fan of the Auto-5s myself! My dad was a huge fan, his first shotgun was a Belgium made A5, which he gifted to me as my first shotgun! He bought every single A5 he had the opportunity to buy! I also own a few Remington 11s and 48s! My 11-48s will eat anything I throw at it, while the A5s only eat high class, high brass but I still love them! 😂
Me too. A buddy of mine was moving couldn't take it with him. One of the nicest shooting shot gun I own
I bet the two most rare would be blow forward and primer actuated. Blow forward is the opposite of blow back. Prime actuated I bet is the rarest. It uses the power of the primer of the cartridge to basically act like a piston to push the bolt back. If I'm not mistaken one of the prototype for the M1-Garand was a primer actuated design. The downside is you'd have to design a cartridge that has its primer basically blow out when fired to work. An honorable mention would be both a gas operated air gun that uses argon gas and no gunpowder, and electricity fired guns that are caseless. There's guns out there that use the electric fireing system that have achieved one million rounds per/minute.
Storm something.. stack volley so mill a min is kinda a misnomer, just add more barrels. But still cool af to watch it unload, they made a grenade launcher version too😂
Dude those air powered guns are wild. I was coming out of the woods other day an met a dude with one. I noticed his rifles appearance an asked about it... Wow. It shot a .50 cal slug, looked kinda like a old school muzzleloader sabot at 700-800 ft per second.
Turns out dude made a dumb mistake an got a felony so that was only way he could hunt deer with a "gun". He fired off for me , super quiet an put a big ass hole in a stump lol.
@@enderwiggin9303 Metal Storm..?
@@joshuagann8026If you haven't, do yourself a favor and look into "air bolts". They've got bolts (like, crossbow bolts) that can be fired out of airguns at over 500 fps now. You could feasibly take down a bear with an airgun, isn't that wild?
This channel does a great job at describing and showing how the mechanics work in the firearms being highlighted. It isn't always an easy thing to do, so thank you for that.
I scooped up one of these at a gun show years ago. Kicks pretty hard, not gonna lie. But the historical aspect got me. It's stamped as Remington, but also lists three patents from Browning. Serial number is in the lower 3000s so Mr Browning would have still been in the factory 😎 (FN factory technically, but contracted with Remington to produce his shotgun)
What he has in the video is a Winchester model 1911. What you have is a Remington 11
@@leviwoodring6101 true. Similar long recoil actions in these first semi auto shotguns. Mine would be designated "autoloader" as it was in the first year of production. Later called the "sportsman" and finally the "model 11"
Have you tried switching your friction spring to heavy loads? Could be the reasoning for hard kick
@@theBullStarr sportsmen is newer then the model 11 name. The sportsmen is a plugged m11. Only holds 2 rounds in the mag.
That is an intensely interesting piece of history.
That's a browning A5, I think. One of the first commercially viable semi-autp shotguns.
They're short recoil. Atleast the Autolight5 i had was.
That’s the Winchester version, hence no charging handle
Widow maker , no charging handle.
@@MolanLabe78The standard original A5s are long recoil, like the video.
@chrisgabbert658 The Brownings have a proper charging handle.
I have several 11-87s that are long recoil, the speed, or lack thereof forces you to be more deliberate with the follow up shot as you have time during the cycle.
You have either a Model 11 or an 11-48. The 11-87 is a gas-operated follow on of the Model 1100.
@maynardcarmer3148 You're correct, 11-48. Not enough coffee before I posted. I have one in every gauge but 410 bore.
@@danmclennan7930 The big difference between the two is the hump. The model 11 has the flatback style hump, the 11-48 has the modern look without the hump. Personally have an A5 in 12 and model 11s in 16 and 20, real treat to shoot.
I love the way that Winchester model 1911 feels when you shoot it. I found one on accident and picked it up and thats where i learned about long recoil from researching what this strange shotgun is.
Isn't that the "widow maker"? Browning had the patent rights for the bolt handle thus in order to open the action the barrel had to be grabbed and pulled back toward the receiver. Some people lacking strength to pull the barrel would place the butt on the ground and push the barrel back, sometimes placing their face over the muzzle
I recognize some of the wear marks on this shotgun and I know it sounds nuts but I think that shotgun used to belong to me.
would be neat if thats true
Did it have an operating handle on it when you owned it?
Cool
@@kennethpaquin8574 the remington A5 clone actually never had a charging handle to bypass Browning's patent for the A5
@@Average_M05_Enjoyer Hmmm...then I better remove the charging handle from my Rem model 11. Wouldn't want to get a patent infringement! Sorry...couldn't help myself. Yes...Remington model 11s have charging handles.
Its main advantage is that you dont need a super heavy bolt or springs since the mass of the barrel also helps with delaying opening. You probably couldn't run the bolt on a Barrett if it was entirely dependent on the mass of the bolt and strength of the springs to delay unlocking.
"me writing all of this down when i mabey someday create my own gun"
Do it. A lot of famous firearms were created by someone who had an interest like you but don't know much.
I'll take 5
I'd recommend going for simple blow back or gas operation rather than recoil operation then, since those are much simpler systems.
@tangojuliett1230 I am not really intrested in a already functional design.
I have a INCREDIBLY stupid idea, and i want to make said stupid idea "useable" by thinking out out...
How big of a caliber do you want your single-shot rifle to be able to fire?
Make sure you give it a dumb name like timber horse plinko tactical 38 but the number has to have no relation to the firearm, not the patent or ammunition type.
With the long recoil, the lock is unlocked from the barrel, when it goes forward to return and the pressure is already low. This allows the use of ammunition with a different power than the nominal one. Almost like a cannon.🤔
The Browning A5 and a few Remington models use "Long recoil." I was amazed, at 10 years old, that the A5 barrel actually moved, all the way through chamber, while locked onto the receiver. It would be another 4 years before I graduated to an auto loader. If I remember correctly, I was given a Remington 11-48 to use for duck season. I had been using an old bolt action 410 gauge., lol.
I have a Remington Model 11 made in 1922. Winchester wouldn't make the Auto-5 for John Browning, but Remington did. Mine is old enough that it has a firing pin return spring.
Remington Mohawk 48 does the same
Yeah a friend had a Browning “Sweet Sixteen“ and it was smoooth to shoot. It went ch-clink every time.
@@jobriath11I have a super lightweight "Sportsman 48" 16 gauge. Kicks like a mule because of its [lack of] weight but boy is it nice for pheasant and grouse hunting.
@@karlreinkeI love 16 gauge.
Ya know, it'd be fun to see someone convert an AR into long recoil.
I mean, it'd pretty much be a completely new gun, but it'd be awesome!
You are asking for something like a Chauchat action, re-chambered in 5.56 x 45, that fastens on to an AR-15 lower receiver.
@@richardbell7678 Yep, pretty much!
Also, do you use the numpad for typing numbers? Cause your finger might have slipped from 5 to 9.
@@DustyGamma No, I did not check that I correctly remembered the 5.56 NATO cartridge length.
@@richardbell7678 Aww, I was real proud of my detective work...
Long recoil AR10: www.olympus-arms.com/product/vulcan-rifle-c-grip-plus-rail-mud-military-universal-drab-color
Fascinating , thanks for educating us all 😊
It seems like long recoil system is good for semi-automatic firearm chambered in high recoil ammunition since the system reduces instant kickback using inertia from big mass of the bolt and the barrel combined, but the inertia makes the entire gun back and forth.
I have an Ithaca SKB 900. Not the XL 900. And it is long recoil operated. It works well. Not my favorite gun but it runs flawlessly to this day.
VERY EDUCATIONAL!!! Thanx a million!
What a great and simple way of explaining this system. I always had a hard time understanding how it worked.
I have CZ 241 with such operation system. Very interesting gun and shooting.
Very nice design. Its a little slower but less recoil.
KA-CHUNK, KA-CHUNK, KA-CHUNK
Gotta love the auto five.
My model 81 woods master has the same type of action (35 Remington) made in November 1941.
This is a Winchester 1911 SL. It wanted and thought it would be the Auto 5 but no luck. No luck for the people who shot it either. Hence the reason it’s nick name is the widow maker.
The AN94 used a similar system, where the barrel will move with the bolt initially, but simultaneously chambering another round and firing it by the time they reach the end of their travel. Making the “hyper burst” which if I remember correctly shoots at about 1,000rpm.
Long Recoil is also one of the few mechanism that can potentially function with black powder cartridges.
I think just about any action that doesn’t involve a gas system can function with black powder, at least for a short time in an emergency. It would need to be thoroughly cleaned after practically every other magazine, though.
Ian, I have one that was given to me 40 years ago by an old hunting buddy of mine that has since passed. I love it, and use it for trap on occasion. But I found out that you never ever ever never take the buttock spring out!!!Great video thank you
😂 and why is that? is it 6 foot long or takes a 1000 lbs. of force to compress? sounds like a funny story behind this ? I have an old winchester 74 22lr that I dont enjoy disassembling. it's weird.
I bet these things were SUPER accurate, having all the critical parts moving around like that and all
The action doesn't begin to move until after the wad leaves the barrel.
I got a Belgian made a5, i like the way the barrel moves its like a handheld artillery piece😂, fitting given how it kicks
Gotta give mankind some credit.....we build some amazing stuff out of metal.
Those that learn actual machining are worth their weight in......unmachined gold!
Excellent video 👍👍
The winchester 1911 "widow maker"
I can imagine how many accidents have happened trying to clear a malfunction
I have a model 48 Remington 12 ga that cycles like that, it's a very reliable shotgun
I thought I understood recoil guns until I found a short recoil shotgun with a fixed barrel
Nice to know what it is called. I have a long recoil shotgun. Didn't know that type of recoil had a special name
The bolt pulls the barrel back, not the other way around.
Well...they move in tandem because the case exerts outward pressure on the chamber causing friction, which pulls the barrel. Also as the wad leaves the barrel it applies rearward pressure to the barrel. These forces combined with the pressure against the bolt face move the entire unit as one. So you are correct in saying the barrel doesn't, on its own, push the bolt back... it's a combination of forces.
The barrel pushes the bolt back due to recoil. Hence long recoil system. If the barrel is pushing the bolt back equal to or greater than the length of the cartridge, before it unlocks, then it is called long recoil. If the distance is less than the length of the cartridge, before unlocking, then it is called a short recoil system.
I think you're right... the expansion of gasses from ignition exerts force in all directions; primarily axially along the barrel (forwards and backwards) and also against the sides of the chamber, radial (and perpendicular) to the axis of the barrel.
The radial forces are contained by the cartridge and/or chamber walls. This forces the majority of the gas expansion (and force) to travel along the barrel axis, both forward and backward.
Since the barrel is just a long tube, the axial forces don't exert primarily on the barrel walls, and even if they did, it would push the barrel out, not back. The forward axial force propels the bullet. The backward axial force can only act on the face of the bolt (through the rear of the cartridge), not directly on the barrel itself.
As such, the backward force acting on the bolt face pushes the bolt back, which pulls the barrel along with it until it unlocks at the rear of travel.
@@khallrik Most of what you said is true. However...the friction between the case and chamber wall also causes the barrel to move backward...because it's the only direction that the barrel can move. Therefore its the only direction in which the release of energy can occur until the projectile leaves the barrel. If you had a barrel with no bolt behind it sitting on a rest and you detonated a cartridge within the chamber, the entire barrel would move backward before the empty case would exit the chamber and fly out the back. The now empty case doesn't disengage with the chamber walls until the pressure is released and the case cools and shrinks slightly allowing it to disengage from the chamber walls. This force combined with the backward force exerted upon the muzzle from the projectile leaving the barrel both act to push the barrel rearward. All these forces act in tandem to move the barrel and bolt rearward. The barrel doesn't push the bolt back on its own...and neither does the bolt pull the barrel back on its own.
I always wondered with long recoil if the force is pushing the bolt back and dragging the barrel with, or if its pushing the barrel back and by extension the bolt. If the bolt is pulling the barrel rearward then its kinda acting like a straight blowback with a delayed unlock and a variable mass to slow it down. If the barrel is pushing the bolt backwards it would almost be kinda like a gas trap system but venting gas forwards and thus thrusting the barrel backwards like a jet
I've thought about that. I think it's mostly the barrel, although both experience rearward pressure and push backwards. If you think about it, simple blowback guns still impart a recoil force to the stock and to the shooter, even though the bolt itself does not push on the stock much.
It's not what pulls or pushes what, it's where the recoil energy goes and how this affects the affected parts. All parts in the system (including the shooter and even the earth he's standing on😮) want to recoil. Since barrel, bolt and casing are locked together, the recoil acts on them as if it was a single peace. So no pushing or pulling. In a gun that is unlocked before the bolt moves backwards at first, in the locked state, the whole rifle (and the shooter )acts as one, but when it unlocks, you more or less have two parts, each with their own momentum, and thus speed. The bolt has less mass then the remaining rifle (and shooter) and speeds backwards. The only pulling is done by the extractor because the casing is very lightweight, doesn't cary much momentum, so doesn't move as fast as the bolt so needs to be helped by said bolt and extractor. (And the brass is also somewhat sticky, but that's a different story).
This also explains why if you don't hold on to a gun, you get malfunctions.
I'd like to see it's long term performance so a materials evaluation and shape analysis can be done.
Its rarity makes me suspicious that this may be a hidden gem.
Recoil is a serious consideration for operation.
I had a Remington model 8 # 658 in .35 Remington. It worked this way.
I have a Remington 11-48 and this is how it works. It’s 73 years old.
Had a Remington sportsman 48 detonate a Walmart target shell and had the majority of the cartridge come out the action except the hull was about 8" up the barrel
Love my Browning Auto 5s!
My well seasoned Remington model 11 has no ever misfired in the years I’ve owned it
Picked up a browning A5. Super cool recoil mechanism.
Mike Mentzer of the gun world.
The reason why it's not super popular I believe is that it's more moving parts, thus costs more. And means it's harder to field strip and clean
And all those forces moving the barrel foward and action back into battery are the reason that foregrip furniture is cracked.
Would like to see this in action, full speed, and slow mo
Absolutely love my 11/48 78 years old works better then most modern auto loaders
Love the feel of those shotguns!
Rare but very cool
seems like a great design for accuracy…
They're rare for a good reason: the nickname "widowmaker" is usually synonymous with them.
No it isn't. There are tens of millions of Auto 5s and their clones (like the the Winchester 1911) out there.
My dad has one of these, Remington sportsman that's about 70 years old
“Locked into uhhh”🗣️🔥🔥🔥
I need some slo mo of this 😮
ruclips.net/video/6aX4W4HVo_U/видео.html
Ive been into guns for 11 years and have never heard of such an interesting design. What are the benefits, if any?
This would create a sighting zeroing nightmare. By the nature of the barrel travelling to the rear, this would create a major consistency issue with the forward sight.
It's a shotty and does not matter one bit.
Browning’s first semiautomatic shotgun employed such an action. It kicked like a mule, and had the dubious nickname of “widowmaker,” because cycling the action meant grabbing the barrel and pulling it rearward. If one was careless, he could find himself staring at the muzzle whilst racking a shell into the chamber.
You are half remembering things. You are thinking of the Winchester shotgun. Not designed by him.
@@WALTERBROADDUSThe Winchester 1911 is just a Auto 5 without a charging handle.
@Gunsbeerfreedom87 that's a bit of an oversimplification. And while it uses the same recoil system, it was not designed by Browning.
@WALTERBROADDUS It's a copy of Brownings designs, with just enough changed to avoid patent violations. It's not that deep.
@Gunsbeerfreedom87 they both use long recoil. But to say that they are copies, is incorrect.
That’s cool. Was it reliable? And did it reduce recoil?
You should use deactivated cartidges in some footages so we can see the mechanism
Just bought one of those 1911 shotguns
My dad alwys called that "blowback". I remember him showing me by pushing the gun into the barrel of his Remington 11-48.
The barrel wouldn't recoil backwards on its own, only reason it does is because the bolt is physically attached to it. Just clarifying 😛
These were regarded as dangerous. To initially charge the weapon you ‘rack’ the barrel itself. They knurled a grip on it for this purpose. So they imagined people charging them from the hip or even while shouldered. Next thing you know people would charge them with the butt on the ground. Sometimes they were also know to slam fire.
Father-in-law had a sweet 16. My brother-in-law tried to strip and reblue it. He ruined it.
Thank you Ian❤️
winchester 1911 12g semiauto ,1st gun i ever owned ,the guy who sold me it said it was a sucide special only paid 75$ for it
100%! My first gun too. I paid $100 in the early 90's
@@rcallred13 2017 got it in a gunshow in nevada really good gun ,unlike the a5 it cycles waist aiming
Seems really inefficient since the friction of the round on the rifling wants to push the barrel forwards - which is how blow-forward guns operate. Also, the barrel springing forward like that will give a weird reverse-recoil impulse. I've never understood this design...
What are the advantages and disadvantages of such a design as opposed to short recoil or gas operated mechanisms?
More moving parts = less reliability. That's why it's scarce.
That's an endless jam waiting to happen
Mine...as well as my father's have never jammed! John Browning didn't invent garbage!
Believe me, as long as you shoot smaller cartridge, the recoil effect ain't catchin up really bad as the bigger cartridges does.
I learned about this system because I bought a clapped out Remington 11 for $100 at a gun show.
this recoil system is more common on artillery/howitizers than small arms.
Love my Belgian A5 🤙
It's a Winchester model 11 "The Widowmaker"
No wonder this is rare. Sure you get some felt recoil reduction, but in exchange you're basically milking a cow by holding the tits in place and lifting the whole animal up. Some added complexity, and you definitely can't put a scope on that barrel because with the travel distance it would break any normal scope over the face of the shooter so you either get a lot of opportunities for inaccuracy or you need really expensive high end machining to make sure the barel goes back exactly the same every single time.
Now someone invent 'hard recoil,' then someone combine 'long recoil' and 'hard recoil' to yield 'long and hard recoil'
Me, personally, I call this "Barrel Action"
Just like my old A5.😊
I'd be curious to see a dummy round in this or something similar. Still pretty interesting though.
I was instantly reminded of the Lynx when i saw the barrel move. Can the same also be said for the AN94?
Long recoil my beloved
I have a Remington model 11 with the suicide safety and square recoil spring
since the barrel is not immovable but moves after every shot, I'm wondering "How the barrel holds zero after every shot?"
I recognize that shotgun…. I love mine!!
Imagine a gattling gun with long recoil moving barrels while rotating.
That seems overly complicated for no reason; Gatling guns already work by using the rotation of the barrels to unlock the bolts, introducing a long recoil system just adds more moving parts, more weight, and the potential for jams caused by mis-timing.
My Upland bird gun is an Ithaca 900 Recoil Op. It's killed a pile of birds and no small number of deer.
Wait, wouldn't this work really well with cased telescope ammunition?
Have the case have a rim on the front that locks into a frontal ejection part attached to the moving barrel.
Im thinking the shotgun my grandpa gave me may have been a long recoil: even though i cleaned the bajeesus out of it, the thing would never fully cycle, it would fire, usually eject, but always fail to feed. The barrel would often be slid back into the receiver along with the bolt, hence my suspicion. Has a finger bar for the bolt, used to go home after a day of shooting clays with a worn knuckle from cycling the darn thing 🤣
Everyone told me i needed to shoot full/buck loads to get it to cycle, bird shot was too light? Shot some 00, same problem.
I'd imagine the floating barrel could cause some accuracy issues. But I am no expert. Is this a problem these types of guns experience? I know nowadays we do have highly accurate rifles that have floating barrels such as the .50 cal semiauto. Im not sure on how they addressed any accuracy issues (if any) however
Is this technically open bolt? Would this even be a legal operating system today?
I believe this is the Winchester M11. I have the Remington M11 which has a charging handle instead of having to grip the barrel to cycle the action. Those killed a bunch of people.
I got the Winchester 1911, mines a little over 100 years old and still works better than most semi autos do
Doesn’t the M82 have this same feature? Or one similar?”
What are the advantages and disadvantages for such a system?
Cartridge sensitive. Can not attach things to the barrel. Lots of thing in motion makes the felt recoil high.
My remington 16 gauge has this system. Feels woerd to shoot compared to a gas semi.
I’m guessing this would have been simpler to make than gas operated systems at the time.