Tired of the guys who always tell me to put bigger discs on front and replace drums on back with discs. I always tell them it stops perfectly with stock configuration. Thanks unc for reinforcing that opinion in this vid. Don't fix if not broke is my school.
@@MarcusSandoval-kx2thyou are absolutely correct. Matter of fact, if correct, they stop better!. They just don't like constantly braking. That's where the disc has it.
@@cuzz63 Brakes only have to be able to lock the wheels, even on a racing car. Cooling the brakes is a bigger issue than the size of the braking.Drum brakes are more efficient than disk brakes.
@ well if they lock the brakes they do work even if thats not what you want. Yes cooling is a big issue in high performance which is why people want larger disk brakes, although they often dont even race their car. Also disk brakes are lighter than drums so there is some weight savings.
Dear Uncle Tony, I always replace this hose on old cars for the reasons you described, HOWEVER... I've never literally seen how bad that rear line can swell up and close itself. This is a FANTASTIC video. Thank you so much for showing us, with video, what can happen. It leaves such a bigger impression to see it than to simply hear about it. I'm really blown away by your real world demonstration. Thank you.
In my opinion, most people these days do not know how to drive. Cant shift a manual gearbox? Cant use your mirrors to drive in reverse? (And cant back up a trailer...) I would like to see more stringent driver license requirements.
@@kellykitson4033 yes!!!!! This!. I'm not gods gift by no means. But my papa, (when I was little) taught me how to back up with mirrors YEARS before I ever drove forward. To this day I have more confidence backing than I do driving forward. Jmo
@@desertmonsoon1 our 18 yo daughter has a standard transmission vehicle and she has driven my old F250 (5 spd). When younger daughter gets to be old enough to drive she will be driving standard as well. We have 6 vehicles in the family and not one of them is an automatic. And I certainly will never ever own a vehicle that needs software updates or can have any aspect of its functionality changed from a remote location.
Hey Tony. I agree with you 100 percent. Back when I use to work on my cars one of my rules was if I was replacing the wheel cylinders I would always replace the rubber brake line too. For the $20 or so that it costs for the line it just wasn't worth the chance and if the cylinders were worn out then most likely so was the line. Later
On my 59 Galaxie I was fighting for a while and still am on getting a firm pedal with good stopping power(Barely has enough power to hold it in gear) I've yet to replace the rear junction brake hose and the wheel rear cylinders and adjust the front brakes to tighten enough and your video has helped give me a very good insight on this problem
I've always found that old - including drum - brakes stopped pretty much as good as disc, at least for the first stop. What they can't handle nearly as well is the heat soak of repeated hard stops, or riding the brakes for a long period, e.g. down a steep hill. But if you can lock your brakes up, and all old cars could, then it's the tyres that are the weak link.
Yeah, drum brakes work well when cold as they self assist, the shoe friction helps push it harder onto the drum. The problem is, when they heat up and the shoes start to off gas, the friction fades away along with the self assistance. The stopping power falls off a cliff.
@@alasdair4161 Even without off-gassing friction materials, the drum gets larger in diameter as it heats up - get too hot and the shoes simply won't reach it before the pedal hits the floor. But for a single panic stop - assuming they're adjusted correctly _AND_ evenly - they work more than adequately.
To some degree yes. If you've modified the system, and you are locking tires, pay attention to which tire is locking and if it's doing so prematurely. A non-abs system must have a correctly sized brake bias, and a prop valve if it's to have good performance at all levels of deceleration.
Rebuilding the brake system on a 1965 Chevy in 1970 cost only about $20. That included 3 brake hoses, 4 wheel cylinder kits, brake fluid, and relined brake shoes. Rebuilding a master cylinder was another $3. That brake hose tip is gold! I saw it many times. Good Luck, Rick
My first hot rodded car was a 65 Mustang 289 v8 power drum brake system. I had 4 new brake drums, rebuilt cylinders, new rubber hoses and new EIS premium brake shoes. It stopped really well untill you really beat on the brakes. Dad busted me for driving wild because all four drums were smoking when I pulled in the garage. I had to start parking outside .
For normal driving, drum brakes lend themselves nicely to a parking brake. I keep hearing of problems with the parking brake on rear discs, but not so much with a drum, except for the cable seizing up from lack of use.
@@eyerollthereforeiam1709 the cable for 1 side of my 99 buick century wore / the hole wore 1 hose clamp later, and its fine. . 372,000 miles, and ive E-brake drifted that thing every winter ive had it lol
I had a caliper stick on and start smoking from a bad hose. The car was only a couple of years old, but a few months earlier I got hit on the right front corner, damaging the strut and suspension. Used parts were found at a salvage yard (insurance wouldn't pay for new parts.) Driving home one day, I saw smoke from that corner. Oh, crap. I was able to get the handle of the snow brush I still had in my trunk in July, get between the spokes of the wheel, and knock the caliper just a bit loose. That has to be the perfectly Canadian solution, only the poutine was missing. But it got me home using side roads and the parking brake. So lesson learned! If there are any doubts at all, just replace the hoses. They're cheap. As a side note, another lesson learned: If I have this again, where insurance doesn't want to pay for new parts like suspension and brakes, I'll tell the shop to get new parts, and just bill me directly. I'm not futzing around with that again.
Could you have the shop bill used parts and then pay the balance on actually using new? I dunno, just wondering. Couldn't be fraud cuz the insurance was willing to pay a certain amount. I'm not a lawyer cuz I don't throw kittens through fans. But seems logical.
The same hose issues happen on disks in the rears too! Total agreement on the drums working fine EXCEPT I don't like having to adjust FRONT drums for pulling left or right...
Hi Uncle Tony, I was surprised you didn't mention the other way this is a bad situation ... There is quite an amazing amount of pressure that can be exerted by pressing down the brake pedal. But no real pressure is developed when the foot comes off the pedal. So with the constricted rear brakes hose(s), there is very little tendency for the brake to return to its no-braking running condition. And although one may not feel this effect, the brake is now rubbing with the foot off the pedal because the fluid pressure is not completely released when the foot comes off the pedal (at least not immediately). Now the brake drum or disk starts to get hot and the fluid pressure is still holding that brake, and it starts holding it harder as the steel gets hotter and the parts start to expand and next thing you either blow a brake hose, or seize the brake or have a fire or a combination of any of the above!
I had a '71 Mercury Cougar and the rear wheels would still spin when stopped at a traffic light in snow or ice. Bad rear wheel cylinders. Had to shift to neutral from drive to keep the rear end in my lane. Good video!
First thing I ever do when I get an older vehicle (I trailer them home, running or not) replace all soft brake lines, inspect and replace shoes & drums. And shocks! I have to disagree with some people, when these cars were built there was a lot less traffic and way lower speed limits. And most don't have ABS. A good working system will work well, but they need to be in good shape.
I drove a 66 Valiant from 1976 to 1983. Yes the drum brakes can stop the car, however the pads barely lasted 20000 miles, the rear brake adjusters would go out of adjustment every 6 to 9 months. The rebuild of the Drums was a pain in the ass. You had to back up and apply the brake to get the adjusters to move. If you didn't, the parking brake would start to not work. The drums would get ridges that made it almost impossible to remove from the hub. The front wheel bearings where in the hub. It was a constant pain in the ass and they often would pull when they went out of adjustment. Disk brakes with a dual braking system work better every day all day. My 72 Satellite Front Disk brakes blew my mind the first time I rebuilt them. So MUCH better!
I had a rear line that was just at the point, where pedal pressure would push enough fluid through to apply the brakes, but the return springs couldn't push it back. Stop once, go nowhere. Any drum braked car from the 60s etc can lock the wheels at 60, if the brakes are as they should be. Lack of stopping goes beyond that.
None of it does. The last car I built was a 64 Galaxie. I wound up buying a disc setup for the rear and converting to a late 70's Tbird/Cougar front disc setup with braided hoses on the fronts and at the rear axle. I live in Tennessee, the car was only driven on sunny days, and the "replacement" wheel cylinders would rustpit and leak to the point that they weren't rebuildable.
When I got my 1958 Volvo, the brakes were working, but not great. Took it to a shop in order to get it serviced, as I didn't feel like doing it myself. Were told everything is fine, so they didn't do much. Only did a general clean and lube and replaced some rusted hard lines. The brakes were still not great after the service, so I disassembled everything myself. Found rusted wheel cylinders, a constricted brake hose and other broken parts. I've always been told I need to install a brake servo, because the brakes are terrible on old cars. After a proper repair and service I don't feel the need for one.
My 70 Mustang fastback and my 66 Galaxie 500 both had manual drums from the factory . Stopped ok but on hard braking it was a crap shoot which way the car would pull . A trip to the junkyard for each resulted in 72 LTD discs for the Galaxie and Granada front discs for the Mustang . Both bolt in swaps . Neither car required a power booster . The single bail master cylinder from the Galaxie and the stock one from the Mustang were both replaced with manual disc master cylinders for a mid 70's Torino .... parts catalogs can be your friend ! Braided steel flexible lines were installed on both cars along with adjustable proportioning valves . Both cars stopped very well after these simple mods .
I purchased a ‘65 Sport Fury that had sat for twenty years. Before I drove it, I replaced the wheel cylinders. No fluid came from the rear. I pulled the center hose and it was swelled shut. I replaced all the rubber lines- and the 4-wheel drum brakes worked fantastic after that!
RIght on Uncle!, love this info and now about to replace that rear line I passed on when doing my 52 hot rod. Also, was hilarious watching you finish up with black smudge on your lips LOL. made me laugh and made my Day!
The old hoses on my classic 66 Beetle acted like little line locks, fluid flowed out but not back. Apply the brakes and let off the pedal, still full brakes to all four wheels.
Tony, you are right on the money. Lets not forget that a properly operating drum brake system can easily lock the wheels - you can't use anymore braking power than that! We've all also heard guys crying "well those old drum brake systems fade like crazy", but if you are only braking on one shoe or just the front, or worse yet, just the rear brakes even a properly sized disc brakes system will fade (and before some troll dings me yeah I know disc brakes have pads not shoes).
Well, it depends on how you drive as well. If you drive like a normal person, drum brakes are fine. However, if you have big power under the hood, and you drive like everything is a road course, eventually you will run out of brakes. If there's one thing drum brakes suck at, it's getting rid of the excess heat, and eventually, they will fade. It's all about what you are doing. That being said, a well maintained stock setup is a very good place to be before any modifications are considered.
I had 3 different vehicles burst their metal brake lines because I lived in Michigan. I would recommend a thorough inspection of the metal lines as well. You never know where your car has been with these older cars.
That's great advice Tony! My 1975 chevy c20 truck has very good brakes because I knew the system needs attention from time to time. I'm an old bracket two time regional champion drag racer, so I know how important brakes can be in the shut down area. as well as the roads.
My 1974 VW Beetle has stock brakes. When I bought it it had sat (in California) for nearly 20 years. We spent most of a day replacing the wheel cylinders and master cylinder, drums and shoes looked great, then bled and adjusted the brakes. Two years later it's still braking great. I know a lot in the VW community like to do the disc brake upgrades, I think drum brakes are just fine. I also kept my 1987 El Camino brakes stock, although if I'd had access to earlier model rear backing plates to eliminate the bullshit clips on the wheel cylinders I'd have retrofitted those. When I get to my 1964 VW bus, same thing, stock brakes.
I'll never change the drum brakes on the back of my mk1/2 vws. My summer mk2, I replaced the whole rear drum brake assemblies back in 2004. It sat from 2010-2012 , and upon inspection the wheel cylinders were questionable. So I changed them out. Still running it on 2004 drums ,shoes and springs. Should last another 20yrs since it's a summer car. All the rear disc conversions hang the sliders up and kill your pads and rotors ,I replaced like 3-4 sets of rear discs on the wife's old Mk4.
Super point UTG! When I worked at NAPA I would try so hard to get people to buy hoses and wheel cylinders but "they were always just fine" and our shoes is what sucked.
Never Forget!, every time you see an Old Car/Truck... The reason it's still here .. Is because it was Actually Driven by a Person Who Could Drive!!... A Person of Skill, a person who could sense road feel, a person who understood threshold braking .. Survival of the Fittest right?... Cheers from Southern California 🇺🇸.. Keep on wrenching folk's..
Great timing, I’m up early to adjust the brakes on my ‘62 Grand Prix, front left seems to drag. The flexible hose from body to diff swelled completely shut, had us chasing our tails all day. The front hoses may need replacing as well. The 8 lug wheels and drums are pretty good, new King springs, Peddars shocks and new radials make a world of difference.
This is exactly what happened to my '65 Studebaker. My mechanic pulled the rear drums and was amazed at how the brake shoes looked like brand new ,even though I had the car for 4 years without any brake work done. He pulled the rear line and it was completely solid! No fluid getting to the rear brakes at all. Some new line and a bleeding job and I was back in business.I later added front discs (thanks to Jim Turner brakes in Indiana) and have had zero braking issues since that time.
Great video. Just replaced the booster and master cylinder on my 70 Lemans because the brake petal wouldn’t return to top position… turns out the moisture in the car (21 years in a barn) had corroded the pivot point for the petal. I cleaned and lubed it and the brakes are amazing now. The little things…
Yep! I have seen this many times. I also see VERY often that people don't know the short primary shoe goes on the front side and the longer secondary goes on the back side. I can't tell you how many parts cars I took apart with these all mixed up in different combinations.
Excellent example!! Often a locked caliper is caused by a restricted brake line. Becomes a one way check valve. Why would the rear not do the same. Combined with very old wheel cylinder and you are 100% right. Great video
You forgot about my 5,200 pound '65 Imperial with a single master brake cylinder. Even the owner's manuals says to start slowing down before approaching a stop light. I agree. In most cars from that era I never had any issues with brakes.
Hey Tony, TK’s garage channel says the EPA is going to be “declawed”. There not gonna stop us from de-smogging our cars. Could you please address this and how it relates to our cars ? What we can and cannot do. Thank you for being there for us.
Old cars have excellent brakes. I've had way more brake issues on newer cars than older cars. Only old car I had issues with was a Fury that I couldn't get the rear brakes to work or bleed no matter what I did. I ended up seeing a video similar to this one at the time, swapped out the rubber line on the rear, and the brakes worked straight away. That car now probably has the best brakes of any vehicle I've ever driven.
Totally agree UT, I converted the front brakes on my 76 cj5 to an oe disk setup off a 79 cj now my original Jeep aluminum slot wheels don’t fit over the calipers… I have serious regrets!
Totally agree BUT ...... One HUGE thing is being ignored here. Modern replacement brake linings !!! This is such a huge issue that it deserves its own video. Most modern replacement shoes are lined with generic non application specific hard as rock linings that do not have the proper coefficient of friction for these old drum brakes. Sooooo.....The brakes are crap even after all new wheel cylinders, hoses, properly surfaced drums, shoes arced to drums, ect..... I have been battling this issue for almost 20 years now (30 years ago the proper linings were still readily available) and finally am getting my shoes relined at a specialist who has proper lining material for old drum brakes. Looking forward to drum brakes that work like they did back then !!
I found installing riveted shoes vs bonded shoes on my '69 chevelle with manual brakes (manual drums, not power!) made a huge improvement. My 1949 Ford F3 with manual drums and riveted shoes has fantastic brakes, so did my '67 Datsun. Hint for knowing if your brake is working, feel the drum for heat.
At one point in my automotive life I owned a 1964 Mercedes-Benz 190 together with a 1975 Volkswagen "Fusca" Beetle 1200. Both had drum brakes all round. Both had well sorted braking systems, including master and slave cylinders and all lines, metal and rubber. Both were able to stop on a dime, always and every time.
Good stuff. I drove my 66 Chevelle single master cylinder, four wheel manual drum brakes for 3 or 4 years with vintage hoses and parts. The right front was worn through the backing plate and pulled right until the second or third stop of the day. It leaked fluid, and if you did not fill it for the daily trip to the beach, it would not hold against the torque converter, so I would put it in neutral at stoplights. Fun days! Glad you can stop, so we are safe if you ever drive near me. Now has front discs, etc. Had friends in highschool that drove for weeks with no brakes at all. And one of them lived at the top of the hill. Purple four door 55 chevy, no brakes for awhile. Kids said it was exciting to ride to school with him.
I agree as well with the drum brakes 49 Roadmaster weighs 5280lbs no vac booster stops better than my 911S. 67 Olds Delmont Interceptor will put you through the glass. 71 Plymouth Sebring Plus same exact brake line problem you described has 11" drums stockers work just fine. Drums do suck if they get wet though. Appreciate your channel and infinite wisdom.
Another tip from my own experience is check the proportions valve. I rebuilt the brakes on my dad's 50' F-1. When I pulled the rear hubs I found brand new hardware, but when I tried to bleed them no fluid came out. I found a receipt in the glove box for a brake job a few years prior. Long story short the stuck proportioning valve was completely blocked with hardened brake fluid. The jackasses charged him for a brake job and the wheel cylinders never saw fluid, so they never even bled them. The master cylinder was nearly empty except for muddy debris. It's these type of experiences that forced me to become a competent mechanic. I just don't trust the "pros" anymore. Good luck, you can do this!
Man, this is so true. I have a 68 Chevelle with drums all around. New wheel cylinders and rubber lines all around. Good shoes. I have 245 front and 285 rear Michelin PS4S and that thing will come to a damn hault if i want it to, but about once. Some backroad crusing, and you can start to tell when they get warm, but for everyday driving, they lock right up
I've had 2 60's cars that after applying the brake it wouldn't release, and locked up a front wheel as the fluid couldn't release because of a swollen hose.
I’ve found the same issue when restoring vintage motorcycles. Also, The “splooge hole” (return) gets plugged with crud. Guy applies brakes and goes down.
I'm the same age (roughly) as you. I remember how the brakes were on those cars when they were new or just a few years old. They were terrible. Barely adequate if you had the stock sized tires. That stated, you are right about the hoses that get overlooked, you can't expect a 50 year old brake hose to work right.
My 65 Dart GT 273 has 10 inch drums all the way around.When i woke her up after 23 years i replaced all the rubber lines just because i know from experience,she has manual brakes and stops on a dime,already had to find out after a S10 pulled straight out in front of me at an intersection.locked up and went straight in a predictable line.I tell you tho,I believe I had help from above not cramming the old man who didnt see me in the drivers door nonetheless.
I rebuilt and/or replaced a few wheel cylinders on the '71 Duster I got from my brother, back in college (early '80s). Even honed the cylinders once or twice. One was actually out of round and I had to replace it.
Used to use one of those infrared laser temperature sensors to check for hot tires, brake drag, or bearing wear. Very handy and $15 to $50 will get you a good one. Good for exhaust temperature comparison at the heads too.
One of the biggest surprises I had with the 1969 buick I rescued out of some guy's field is how good the brakes are. it's 4 wheel drum power brakes and it stops just as well as my 2006 chevy, especially after I put decent shoes on it.
Oh, that's so true! My experience comes from another end of the world, I restore 70ies Soviet cars as a hobbyist. I stick to one model (GAZ 24 Volga), but I have five of them (stock, V8 swaps, a wagon, etc) and a bunch of donors, so I have a lot of data to compare and analyze. The stock brakes have a hydra-vacuum booster (master cylinder is connected with the brake booster hydraulically) and a brake divider (which imitates a dual-circuit system and blocks the faulty circuit to prevent losing all the brake fluid if something goes wrong). All these extra cylinders make the difference even more obvious: it's not about the system itself, it's about the condition it is in. And usually people just ignore rebuilding the 40+ year old cylinders in the booster and divider. How on earth can it work well? I'm not even talking about the break fluids - back when these cars where built, they used butanol and castor oil mix. You can't just replace it with DOT fluid, all the rubber parts must be replaced and all the lines and cylinders must be thoroughly cleaned first. Anyways, here's my practical experience: 1. On one of my cars I replaced all the wheel cylinders, hoses. And, what's most important - I replaced the old hydra-vacuum system (it was too long gone) with a relatively modern third party vacuum booster. Drum brakes on all wheels and it stopped like a modern car, if not better (large braking surface!). Of course, no electronics and I just daily drove it, didn't race it. But the brakes on it were just chef's kiss. 2. Another one (exact same model) I bought from an old mechanic, the guy is 88 years old and he's still got it! Even has some bottles of that old break fluid, that doesn't go bad if stored properly. The brakes on his car were 100% stock and in perfect condition. Boy it stops well! It almost scared me the first time I hit the brakes. Very intuitive pedal, felt different than the modern systems, but it was "good different". So yeah, give your car some love, spend a little extra on good hoses and cylinders, clean the metal lines with brake cleaner (or just technical alcohol after the butanol fluid) and compressed air. You will enjoy driving it so much more!
My 1st car was a 10 year old Imperial with 4 drum brakes. I almost sent the seller thru the windshield when I tried out the brakes right after he told me they are very touchy. Yep, they were. Stopped us hard and cold.
Tires are the big limiter of stopping power since you can only decelerate according to your grip. Same reasong bog brake kits don't work the way people think they do, they don't directly make your car stop faster, they only improve dissipation of heat, which CAN indirectly boost it IF the stock brakes aren't sufficient at dissipating it. Otherwise you're hurting performance by increasing both unsprung and rotational mass.
Turned rotors & new bearings, seals & "loaded" rebuilt calipers on my Chevy box truck. Pass. side still getting hot?? WTF? YEP, replaced rubbers @ another mechs suggestion= MAGIC!!! NEVER had even heard of that in over 40 yrs. wrenching!
I replaced the brakes on my 2000 F250 a few years ago and the pedal still seemed too spongy to me for new brakes all around. I was bleeding the brakes and noticed a hose flexing when the brakes were pumped. More than likely were original and 20 years old. I changed the hoses on all corners and solved the problem. Many years before that I noticed a brake line on my VW expanding/swelling when pumping the brakes. New rubber fixed it.
Thanks for this information! It looks like come spring, I'm going to have to climb under my old Ranger pickup and replace that hose. All the brake lines have been replaced with the newer copper alloy brake lines, but It never occurred to me to replace that hose because it "looks good". I guess I'll have to check the wheel cylinders also, but I may have replaced them in the past few years, I just don't remember right now.
Tore my '67 Buick Special's rear brake lines out. Same situation. So rusted that I broke the whole system on the axle. Thank God I was able to find replacements.
Yes, bigger brakes only means they take longer to fade. The real issue is grip on the road. I make sure of enough rubber grease is used to help slow down the rust from water ingress at the back of the piston and the covering boot. My opinion.
There's also a hose at the rear diff that will need to be replaced too. I thought you were gonna say that no one bleeds them right. That would also be a problem
Another less common problem with old vehicle brake hoses is a rupture in the inner core! The symptoms: The customer complains that the vehicle brakes great all of the time, but after a while there are almost zero brakes even as the brake pedal is good under sudden and/or heavy braking. Prognosis: After the operation, the temperature of the brakes is reached, and under heavy braking, the inner core ruptures and backs up and blocks the passage of fluid. Diagnosis: Bleed the brakes in stages from the master cylinder until you arrive at the blockage. Note: This can be a frustrating problem to diagnose and remedy because simple observation of the brake hoses won't reveal that a hose is defective on the inside. However, the bigger problem is test driving while trying to diagnose this particular problem!
My Dad had a 71 Maverick 4 door back in the early 80's he drove for a work car and used it to haul the 16ft Glassmaster for fishing. I remember several times coming up to the road for the boat ramp off the main highway and my dad yelling "we'll have to come back around" because those 4 drums just couldn't stop us. Funny as hell now but not so funny back then. We finally got a 71 Chevy C10 and it had front discs but no power assist but it stopped fine. I actually prefer non power assist brakes but they've been gone for a long time. I had an 88 S-10 with manual brakes but my 90 S-10 had power assist. But no, 4 wheel drum brakes suck donkey balls.
One my early experiences with brakes was on dad's manx style dunebuggy. Every time I hit the brakes it would pull hard to the right. It took me a long time to figure out that one of the front rubber brake lines was collapsed on the inside. The outside still looked perfect. Never judge a book by its cover. 😅
Just remember, the drum brakes were on all four corners of a lot of cars until 1975, unless someone paid extra for the disc front brakes. So the brake line replacement is fine for the disc/drum setup, but I have serious reservations about running drums on all four corners. Unless it's a numbers matching restoration, it's probably better to have the front brakes upgraded to disc, so you don't have to worry about brake fade. Heat in the brakes is bad, and drums are a major source of heat being held in. I don't want to write a novel, but I'm sure Tony knows what I'm talking about, and can explain it better.
My wife daily drives a 1970 f250 with manual 4wheel drums and it stops better than my 2018 power wagon nothing wrong with old brakes if they are working correctly
I take my hoses out and lay them on the hood in the hot Calif sun to get them to relax. Don't forget to use the painted stripe to keep from twisting the hose up on tightening.
Many times these clogged brake hoses will act as a check valve, which will lead to a partial or tiny braking on wheels when you are not pressing on brake pedal which will lead to an overheated and warped discs and caliper or wheel cylinder damage. Depending on mileage, it is advised to change brake hoses every 14 years. Another problem on hoses are balooning while pressing on brakes which is a danger compromizes brake efficiency. Take Care.
I have an aircooled volkswagen with modern radial tyres and the stock (front discs, rear drums) brake system revamped with new stock parts and it brakes better than some modern cars I've driven, with not much more pressure needed on the pedal compared to a vacuum boosted system. In fact, I think it brakes too much, so I aways step lightly on the brakes.
This video reminds me of a similar situation in the current E Bike World. In the past few years Hydraulic brakes are the newest #Fad on Bikes, I argue with people all the time, that properly maintained Cable actuated Mechanical Disc brakes, stop a bike just as well as the new fangled Hydraulics. They always try to prove me wrong, but they can't, Hydraulics require tubes of Mineral oil getting pump by the levers thru plastic tubbing. They are a pain in the butt to service, they are messy, expensive & most people can not fix them themselves, & they don't do anything at all to improve anything. I'll take my old style Mechanicals all day long.
But Tony, doncha know the rear brakes do nothing at all because weight transfer magically happens! Actually you're to some degree wrong about pressures, the rears do handle the same amount of pressure as the front (unless the master is staggered) until the point where the prop valve kicks in which might be correlated to around .3 or .4g of decel. Learning about brake system design and the ideal brake curve/weight transfer really opened my eyes to how good old cars brake systems are. You're absolutely right about the hoses and wheel cylinders, pressure isn't magic or absolute, it gets to where it is because the system does have some deflection, the pedal moves because the fluid displaces. If that hose is blocked, it can't displace fluid, and what that does is prevent you from actuating the front brakes! You might stand on that pedal, but if the fluid can't move, it's as though the rear brakes stuck a 2x4 under your brake pedal. Aircooled VW people drive me fucking crazy because they refuse to accept that weight transfer doesn't happen by magic and by just tossing discs on the front they throw the bias wildly out of whack and actually REDUCE the braking performance.
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Tired of the guys who always tell me to put bigger discs on front and replace drums on back with discs. I always tell them it stops perfectly with stock configuration. Thanks unc for reinforcing that opinion in this vid. Don't fix if not broke is my school.
Many are building performance cars...drum brakes are usually ok for normal driving.
Drums can kick ass if adjusted correctly 😂👍
@@MarcusSandoval-kx2thyou are absolutely correct. Matter of fact, if correct, they stop better!. They just don't like constantly braking. That's where the disc has it.
@@cuzz63 Brakes only have to be able to lock the wheels, even on a racing car. Cooling the brakes is a bigger issue than the size of the braking.Drum brakes are more efficient than disk brakes.
@ well if they lock the brakes they do work even if thats not what you want. Yes cooling is a big issue in high performance which is why people want larger disk brakes, although they often dont even race their car. Also disk brakes are lighter than drums so there is some weight savings.
Dear Uncle Tony, I always replace this hose on old cars for the reasons you described, HOWEVER... I've never literally seen how bad that rear line can swell up and close itself. This is a FANTASTIC video. Thank you so much for showing us, with video, what can happen. It leaves such a bigger impression to see it than to simply hear about it. I'm really blown away by your real world demonstration. Thank you.
In my opinion, most people these days do not know how to drive. Cant shift a manual gearbox? Cant use your mirrors to drive in reverse? (And cant back up a trailer...) I would like to see more stringent driver license requirements.
@@kellykitson4033 yes!!!!! This!. I'm not gods gift by no means. But my papa, (when I was little) taught me how to back up with mirrors YEARS before I ever drove forward. To this day I have more confidence backing than I do driving forward. Jmo
Hold the wheel at the bottom and turn the way you want the trailer to go
I work for a municipality. All of our vehicles are surprisingly stick shifts. A 32 year old co worker can’t drive any of the vehicles, lol !
Yeah, backing up a trailer is not one of my better skills...LOL
@@desertmonsoon1 our 18 yo daughter has a standard transmission vehicle and she has driven my old F250 (5 spd). When younger daughter gets to be old enough to drive she will be driving standard as well. We have 6 vehicles in the family and not one of them is an automatic. And I certainly will never ever own a vehicle that needs software updates or can have any aspect of its functionality changed from a remote location.
Hey Tony. I agree with you 100 percent. Back when I use to work on my cars one of my rules was if I was replacing the wheel cylinders I would always replace the rubber brake line too. For the $20 or so that it costs for the line it just wasn't worth the chance and if the cylinders were worn out then most likely so was the line. Later
On my 59 Galaxie I was fighting for a while and still am on getting a firm pedal with good stopping power(Barely has enough power to hold it in gear)
I've yet to replace the rear junction brake hose and the wheel rear cylinders and adjust the front brakes to tighten enough and your video has helped give me a very good insight on this problem
I've always found that old - including drum - brakes stopped pretty much as good as disc, at least for the first stop. What they can't handle nearly as well is the heat soak of repeated hard stops, or riding the brakes for a long period, e.g. down a steep hill. But if you can lock your brakes up, and all old cars could, then it's the tyres that are the weak link.
Yeah, drum brakes work well when cold as they self assist, the shoe friction helps push it harder onto the drum. The problem is, when they heat up and the shoes start to off gas, the friction fades away along with the self assistance. The stopping power falls off a cliff.
@@alasdair4161 Even without off-gassing friction materials, the drum gets larger in diameter as it heats up - get too hot and the shoes simply won't reach it before the pedal hits the floor. But for a single panic stop - assuming they're adjusted correctly _AND_ evenly - they work more than adequately.
To some degree yes. If you've modified the system, and you are locking tires, pay attention to which tire is locking and if it's doing so prematurely. A non-abs system must have a correctly sized brake bias, and a prop valve if it's to have good performance at all levels of deceleration.
Rebuilding the brake system on a 1965 Chevy in 1970 cost only about $20. That included 3 brake hoses, 4 wheel cylinder kits, brake fluid, and relined brake shoes. Rebuilding a master cylinder was another $3. That brake hose tip is gold! I saw it many times. Good Luck, Rick
i wish it was that cheap still
My first hot rodded car was a 65 Mustang 289 v8 power drum brake system. I had 4 new brake drums, rebuilt cylinders, new rubber hoses and new EIS premium brake shoes. It stopped really well untill you really beat on the brakes. Dad busted me for driving wild because all four drums were smoking when I pulled in the garage. I had to start parking outside .
Good stuff... shuld have let things cool off the last mile home.
I completely agree. Drum brakes are fine for normal driving..and even some racing situations
For normal driving, drum brakes lend themselves nicely to a parking brake. I keep hearing of problems with the parking brake on rear discs, but not so much with a drum, except for the cable seizing up from lack of use.
@@eyerollthereforeiam1709 the cable for 1 side of my 99 buick century wore / the hole wore
1 hose clamp later, and its fine.
.
372,000 miles, and ive E-brake drifted that thing every winter ive had it lol
@ Keeping a faithful old car alive? Good stuff. Hose clamps and zip ties to the rescue!
They suck
They’re definitely better for drag racing on cars running 10s and slower. Drums have less drag, they’re lighter, and have less rotational mass.
I had a caliper stick on and start smoking from a bad hose. The car was only a couple of years old, but a few months earlier I got hit on the right front corner, damaging the strut and suspension. Used parts were found at a salvage yard (insurance wouldn't pay for new parts.) Driving home one day, I saw smoke from that corner. Oh, crap. I was able to get the handle of the snow brush I still had in my trunk in July, get between the spokes of the wheel, and knock the caliper just a bit loose. That has to be the perfectly Canadian solution, only the poutine was missing. But it got me home using side roads and the parking brake. So lesson learned! If there are any doubts at all, just replace the hoses. They're cheap.
As a side note, another lesson learned: If I have this again, where insurance doesn't want to pay for new parts like suspension and brakes, I'll tell the shop to get new parts, and just bill me directly. I'm not futzing around with that again.
Could you have the shop bill used parts and then pay the balance on actually using new? I dunno, just wondering. Couldn't be fraud cuz the insurance was willing to pay a certain amount. I'm not a lawyer cuz I don't throw kittens through fans. But seems logical.
@@coyoteodie4458 I'll figure that out with the repair shop if I have to, but drive carefully to ensure that I won't have to.
The same hose issues happen on disks in the rears too! Total agreement on the drums working fine EXCEPT I don't like having to adjust FRONT drums for pulling left or right...
Hi Uncle Tony, I was surprised you didn't mention the other way this is a bad situation ...
There is quite an amazing amount of pressure that can be exerted by pressing down the brake pedal.
But no real pressure is developed when the foot comes off the pedal. So with the constricted rear brakes hose(s), there is very little tendency for the brake to return to its no-braking running condition. And although one may not feel this effect, the brake is now rubbing with the foot off the pedal because the fluid pressure is not completely released when the foot comes off the pedal (at least not immediately). Now the brake drum or disk starts to get hot and the fluid pressure is still holding that brake, and it starts holding it harder as the steel gets hotter and the parts start to expand and next thing you either blow a brake hose, or seize the brake or have a fire or a combination of any of the above!
I had a '71 Mercury Cougar and the rear wheels would still spin when stopped at a traffic light in snow or ice. Bad rear wheel cylinders. Had to shift to neutral from drive to keep the rear end in my lane. Good video!
Cool story
First thing I ever do when I get an older vehicle (I trailer them home, running or not) replace all soft brake lines, inspect and replace shoes & drums. And shocks! I have to disagree with some people, when these cars were built there was a lot less traffic and way lower speed limits. And most don't have ABS. A good working system will work well, but they need to be in good shape.
Tony is spot on here. I ran into this exact rear braking issue with my '69 roadrunner.
Black brake fluid is also a wonderful example of the internal rubber break down.
I drove a 66 Valiant from 1976 to 1983. Yes the drum brakes can stop the car, however the pads barely lasted 20000 miles, the rear brake adjusters would go out of adjustment every 6 to 9 months. The rebuild of the Drums was a pain in the ass. You had to back up and apply the brake to get the adjusters to move. If you didn't, the parking brake would start to not work. The drums would get ridges that made it almost impossible to remove from the hub. The front wheel bearings where in the hub. It was a constant pain in the ass and they often would pull when they went out of adjustment. Disk brakes with a dual braking system work better every day all day. My 72 Satellite Front Disk brakes blew my mind the first time I rebuilt them. So MUCH better!
I had a rear line that was just at the point, where pedal pressure would push enough fluid through to apply the brakes, but the return springs couldn't push it back. Stop once, go nowhere. Any drum braked car from the 60s etc can lock the wheels at 60, if the brakes are as they should be. Lack of stopping goes beyond that.
Whats really disturbing is when the front hoses dont last anything near what the originals did
None of it does. The last car I built was a 64 Galaxie. I wound up buying a disc setup for the rear and converting to a late 70's Tbird/Cougar front disc setup with braided hoses on the fronts and at the rear axle. I live in Tennessee, the car was only driven on sunny days, and the "replacement" wheel cylinders would rustpit and leak to the point that they weren't rebuildable.
Because the rubber isn’t as good as it used to be to be.
When I got my 1958 Volvo, the brakes were working, but not great. Took it to a shop in order to get it serviced, as I didn't feel like doing it myself. Were told everything is fine, so they didn't do much. Only did a general clean and lube and replaced some rusted hard lines. The brakes were still not great after the service, so I disassembled everything myself. Found rusted wheel cylinders, a constricted brake hose and other broken parts. I've always been told I need to install a brake servo, because the brakes are terrible on old cars. After a proper repair and service I don't feel the need for one.
My 70 Mustang fastback and my 66 Galaxie 500 both had manual drums from the factory . Stopped ok but on hard braking it was a crap shoot which way the car would pull . A trip to the junkyard for each resulted in 72 LTD discs for the Galaxie and Granada front discs for the Mustang . Both bolt in swaps . Neither car required a power booster . The single bail master cylinder from the Galaxie and the stock one from the Mustang were both replaced with manual disc master cylinders for a mid 70's Torino .... parts catalogs can be your friend ! Braided steel flexible lines were installed on both cars along with adjustable proportioning valves . Both cars stopped very well after these simple mods .
I purchased a ‘65 Sport Fury that had sat for twenty years. Before I drove it, I replaced the wheel cylinders. No fluid came from the rear. I pulled the center hose and it was swelled shut. I replaced all the rubber lines- and the 4-wheel drum brakes worked fantastic after that!
RIght on Uncle!, love this info and now about to replace that rear line I passed on when doing my 52 hot rod. Also, was hilarious watching you finish up with black smudge on your lips LOL. made me laugh and made my Day!
Yep I always replace all 3 soft lines if I’m doing the fronts anyways. A lot of times you can get them all as a kit anyways.
The old hoses on my classic 66 Beetle acted like little line locks, fluid flowed out but not back. Apply the brakes and let off the pedal, still full brakes to all four wheels.
Tony, you are right on the money. Lets not forget that a properly operating drum brake system can easily lock the wheels - you can't use anymore braking power than that! We've all also heard guys crying "well those old drum brake systems fade like crazy", but if you are only braking on one shoe or just the front, or worse yet, just the rear brakes even a properly sized disc brakes system will fade (and before some troll dings me yeah I know disc brakes have pads not shoes).
Well, it depends on how you drive as well. If you drive like a normal person, drum brakes are fine. However, if you have big power under the hood, and you drive like everything is a road course, eventually you will run out of brakes. If there's one thing drum brakes suck at, it's getting rid of the excess heat, and eventually, they will fade. It's all about what you are doing. That being said, a well maintained stock setup is a very good place to be before any modifications are considered.
I had 3 different vehicles burst their metal brake lines because I lived in Michigan. I would recommend a thorough inspection of the metal lines as well. You never know where your car has been with these older cars.
That's great advice Tony! My 1975 chevy c20 truck has very good brakes because I knew the system needs attention from time to time. I'm an old bracket two time regional champion drag racer, so I know how important brakes can be in the shut down area. as well as the roads.
My 1974 VW Beetle has stock brakes. When I bought it it had sat (in California) for nearly 20 years. We spent most of a day replacing the wheel cylinders and master cylinder, drums and shoes looked great, then bled and adjusted the brakes. Two years later it's still braking great. I know a lot in the VW community like to do the disc brake upgrades, I think drum brakes are just fine. I also kept my 1987 El Camino brakes stock, although if I'd had access to earlier model rear backing plates to eliminate the bullshit clips on the wheel cylinders I'd have retrofitted those. When I get to my 1964 VW bus, same thing, stock brakes.
I'll never change the drum brakes on the back of my mk1/2 vws.
My summer mk2, I replaced the whole rear drum brake assemblies back in 2004.
It sat from 2010-2012 , and upon inspection the wheel cylinders were questionable.
So I changed them out.
Still running it on 2004 drums ,shoes and springs.
Should last another 20yrs since it's a summer car.
All the rear disc conversions hang the sliders up and kill your pads and rotors ,I replaced like 3-4 sets of rear discs on the wife's old Mk4.
Super point UTG! When I worked at NAPA I would try so hard to get people to buy hoses and wheel cylinders but "they were always just fine" and our shoes is what sucked.
Never Forget!, every time you see an Old Car/Truck...
The reason it's still here ..
Is because it was Actually Driven by a Person Who Could Drive!!...
A Person of Skill, a person who could sense road feel, a person who understood threshold braking ..
Survival of the Fittest right?...
Cheers from Southern California 🇺🇸..
Keep on wrenching folk's..
Whenever I have to replace the brake hoses I just go straight to braided stainless steel. Then I never have to worry about it in my lifetime
Great timing, I’m up early to adjust the brakes on my ‘62 Grand Prix, front left seems to drag. The flexible hose from body to diff swelled completely shut, had us chasing our tails all day. The front hoses may need replacing as well. The 8 lug wheels and drums are pretty good, new King springs, Peddars shocks and new radials make a world of difference.
This is exactly what happened to my '65 Studebaker. My mechanic pulled the rear drums and was amazed at how the brake shoes looked like brand new ,even though I had the car for 4 years without any brake work done. He pulled the rear line and it was completely solid! No fluid getting to the rear brakes at all. Some new line and a bleeding job and I was back in business.I later added front discs (thanks to Jim Turner brakes in Indiana) and have had zero braking issues since that time.
Great video. Just replaced the booster and master cylinder on my 70 Lemans because the brake petal wouldn’t return to top position… turns out the moisture in the car (21 years in a barn) had corroded the pivot point for the petal. I cleaned and lubed it and the brakes are amazing now. The little things…
Yep! I have seen this many times. I also see VERY often that people don't know the short primary shoe goes on the front side and the longer secondary goes on the back side. I can't tell you how many parts cars I took apart with these all mixed up in different combinations.
Excellent example!! Often a locked caliper is caused by a restricted brake line. Becomes a one way check valve. Why would the rear not do the same. Combined with very old wheel cylinder and you are 100% right. Great video
Uncle Tony I have those same Craftsman cutters, they're the best ones I've ever used!
My son & I will be resuming work on our 1976 Thunderbird when the weather gets warmer, and this will be a focus once we start!
You forgot about my 5,200 pound '65 Imperial with a single master brake cylinder. Even the owner's manuals says to start
slowing down before approaching a stop light. I agree. In most cars from that era I never had any issues with brakes.
Hey Tony, TK’s garage channel says the EPA is going to be “declawed”. There not gonna stop us from de-smogging our cars. Could you please address this and how it relates to our cars ? What we can and cannot do. Thank you for being there for us.
still have state inspection bs in commie states
Straight outta that "Why din't I think of THIS"? part of my brain! Thanks Tony!
Years ago I switched to Earls braided stainless steel brake hoses and they are still fine. The brake pedal feels much more firmer too.
Old cars have excellent brakes. I've had way more brake issues on newer cars than older cars. Only old car I had issues with was a Fury that I couldn't get the rear brakes to work or bleed no matter what I did. I ended up seeing a video similar to this one at the time, swapped out the rubber line on the rear, and the brakes worked straight away. That car now probably has the best brakes of any vehicle I've ever driven.
I’m ordering rear hoses for my 96 Mustang GT..Great vid UTG!
Totally agree UT, I converted the front brakes on my 76 cj5 to an oe disk setup off a 79 cj now my original Jeep aluminum slot wheels don’t fit over the calipers…
I have serious regrets!
Totally agree BUT ...... One HUGE thing is being ignored here. Modern replacement brake linings !!! This is such a huge issue that it deserves its own video. Most modern replacement shoes are lined with generic non application specific hard as rock linings that do not have the proper coefficient of friction for these old drum brakes. Sooooo.....The brakes are crap even after all new wheel cylinders, hoses, properly surfaced drums, shoes arced to drums, ect..... I have been battling this issue for almost 20 years now (30 years ago the proper linings were still readily available) and finally am getting my shoes relined at a specialist who has proper lining material for old drum brakes. Looking forward to drum brakes that work like they did back then !!
I found installing riveted shoes vs bonded shoes on my '69 chevelle with manual brakes (manual drums, not power!) made a huge improvement.
My 1949 Ford F3 with manual drums and riveted shoes has fantastic brakes, so did my '67 Datsun.
Hint for knowing if your brake is working, feel the drum for heat.
At one point in my automotive life I owned a 1964 Mercedes-Benz 190 together with a 1975 Volkswagen "Fusca" Beetle 1200. Both had drum brakes all round. Both had well sorted braking systems, including master and slave cylinders and all lines, metal and rubber. Both were able to stop on a dime, always and every time.
Good stuff. I drove my 66 Chevelle single master cylinder, four wheel manual drum brakes for 3 or 4 years with vintage hoses and parts. The right front was worn through the backing plate and pulled right until the second or third stop of the day. It leaked fluid, and if you did not fill it for the daily trip to the beach, it would not hold against the torque converter, so I would put it in neutral at stoplights. Fun days! Glad you can stop, so we are safe if you ever drive near me. Now has front discs, etc. Had friends in highschool that drove for weeks with no brakes at all. And one of them lived at the top of the hill. Purple four door 55 chevy, no brakes for awhile. Kids said it was exciting to ride to school with him.
Yup. Those narrowed hoses will let pressure into the wheel cylinder or caliper but wont let it return back into the system causing drag. Good video!
I agree as well with the drum brakes
49 Roadmaster weighs 5280lbs no vac booster stops better than my 911S.
67 Olds Delmont Interceptor will put you through the glass.
71 Plymouth Sebring Plus same exact brake line problem you described has 11" drums stockers work just fine.
Drums do suck if they get wet though.
Appreciate your channel and infinite wisdom.
Excellent info have had bad brake hose trap pressure locking brake 😊
Another tip from my own experience is check the proportions valve. I rebuilt the brakes on my dad's 50' F-1. When I pulled the rear hubs I found brand new hardware, but when I tried to bleed them no fluid came out. I found a receipt in the glove box for a brake job a few years prior. Long story short the stuck proportioning valve was completely blocked with hardened brake fluid. The jackasses charged him for a brake job and the wheel cylinders never saw fluid, so they never even bled them. The master cylinder was nearly empty except for muddy debris.
It's these type of experiences that forced me to become a competent mechanic. I just don't trust the "pros" anymore.
Good luck, you can do this!
A fix like that could be the difference between someone hitting something and causing even a fatality and not hitting it and living. Thanks Tony. 👍
Man, this is so true.
I have a 68 Chevelle with drums all around. New wheel cylinders and rubber lines all around. Good shoes.
I have 245 front and 285 rear Michelin PS4S and that thing will come to a damn hault if i want it to, but about once.
Some backroad crusing, and you can start to tell when they get warm, but for everyday driving, they lock right up
That is a big eye opener, thank you very much Uncle Tony, for another great video!
THANK YOU! Never thought about this
Excellent video, Tony. I’ve driven drum brakes all my life and found them totally adequate. My daily driver has drum brakes.
U.T. you're absolutely right! "Perfectly adequate." That leaves no margin for error...
I've had 2 60's cars that after applying the brake it wouldn't release, and locked up a front wheel as the fluid couldn't release because of a swollen hose.
I’ve found the same issue when restoring vintage motorcycles. Also, The “splooge hole” (return) gets plugged with crud. Guy applies brakes and goes down.
I'm the same age (roughly) as you. I remember how the brakes were on those cars when they were new or just a few years old. They were terrible. Barely adequate if you had the stock sized tires. That stated, you are right about the hoses that get overlooked, you can't expect a 50 year old brake hose to work right.
My 65 Dart GT 273 has 10 inch drums all the way around.When i woke her up after 23 years i replaced all the rubber lines just because i know from experience,she has manual brakes
and stops on a dime,already had to find out after a S10 pulled straight out in front of me at an intersection.locked up and went straight in a predictable line.I tell you tho,I believe I had help from above not cramming the old man who didnt see me in the drivers door nonetheless.
I rebuilt and/or replaced a few wheel cylinders on the '71 Duster I got from my brother, back in college (early '80s). Even honed the cylinders once or twice. One was actually out of round and I had to replace it.
Used to use one of those infrared laser temperature sensors to check for hot tires, brake drag, or bearing wear.
Very handy and $15 to $50 will get you a good one.
Good for exhaust temperature comparison at the heads too.
One of the biggest surprises I had with the 1969 buick I rescued out of some guy's field is how good the brakes are. it's 4 wheel drum power brakes and it stops just as well as my 2006 chevy, especially after I put decent shoes on it.
Great share on the brake hose!
An absolutely brilliant presentation of a very commonly misdiagnosed symptom in aging vehicles.
Good reminder....time to do rear brake rehab.....hose did look fine.....but it is 42 yrs old...time to replace
Oh, that's so true! My experience comes from another end of the world, I restore 70ies Soviet cars as a hobbyist. I stick to one model (GAZ 24 Volga), but I have five of them (stock, V8 swaps, a wagon, etc) and a bunch of donors, so I have a lot of data to compare and analyze. The stock brakes have a hydra-vacuum booster (master cylinder is connected with the brake booster hydraulically) and a brake divider (which imitates a dual-circuit system and blocks the faulty circuit to prevent losing all the brake fluid if something goes wrong). All these extra cylinders make the difference even more obvious: it's not about the system itself, it's about the condition it is in. And usually people just ignore rebuilding the 40+ year old cylinders in the booster and divider. How on earth can it work well? I'm not even talking about the break fluids - back when these cars where built, they used butanol and castor oil mix. You can't just replace it with DOT fluid, all the rubber parts must be replaced and all the lines and cylinders must be thoroughly cleaned first.
Anyways, here's my practical experience:
1. On one of my cars I replaced all the wheel cylinders, hoses. And, what's most important - I replaced the old hydra-vacuum system (it was too long gone) with a relatively modern third party vacuum booster. Drum brakes on all wheels and it stopped like a modern car, if not better (large braking surface!). Of course, no electronics and I just daily drove it, didn't race it. But the brakes on it were just chef's kiss.
2. Another one (exact same model) I bought from an old mechanic, the guy is 88 years old and he's still got it! Even has some bottles of that old break fluid, that doesn't go bad if stored properly. The brakes on his car were 100% stock and in perfect condition. Boy it stops well! It almost scared me the first time I hit the brakes. Very intuitive pedal, felt different than the modern systems, but it was "good different".
So yeah, give your car some love, spend a little extra on good hoses and cylinders, clean the metal lines with brake cleaner (or just technical alcohol after the butanol fluid) and compressed air. You will enjoy driving it so much more!
Another great video UT! Thanks for the info👍
45 years ago I've seen it on my old hot rod. I figured it out after removing a few rear ends and cut the hoses. Then doing some research
My 1st car was a 10 year old Imperial with 4 drum brakes. I almost sent the seller thru the windshield when I tried out the brakes right after he told me they are very touchy. Yep, they were. Stopped us hard and cold.
Tires are the big limiter of stopping power since you can only decelerate according to your grip. Same reasong bog brake kits don't work the way people think they do, they don't directly make your car stop faster, they only improve dissipation of heat, which CAN indirectly boost it IF the stock brakes aren't sufficient at dissipating it. Otherwise you're hurting performance by increasing both unsprung and rotational mass.
Turned rotors & new bearings, seals & "loaded" rebuilt calipers on my Chevy box truck. Pass. side still getting hot?? WTF? YEP, replaced rubbers @ another mechs suggestion= MAGIC!!! NEVER had even heard of that in over 40 yrs. wrenching!
I replaced the brakes on my 2000 F250 a few years ago and the pedal still seemed too spongy to me for new brakes all around. I was bleeding the brakes and noticed a hose flexing when the brakes were pumped. More than likely were original and 20 years old. I changed the hoses on all corners and solved the problem. Many years before that I noticed a brake line on my VW expanding/swelling when pumping the brakes. New rubber fixed it.
Thanks for this information! It looks like come spring, I'm going to have to climb under my old Ranger pickup and replace that hose. All the brake lines have been replaced with the newer copper alloy brake lines, but It never occurred to me to replace that hose because it "looks good". I guess I'll have to check the wheel cylinders also, but I may have replaced them in the past few years, I just don't remember right now.
Tore my '67 Buick Special's rear brake lines out. Same situation. So rusted that I broke the whole system on the axle. Thank God I was able to find replacements.
100% right, I still preferer disc, the least disc front drums with new hoses all the way around
Yes, bigger brakes only means they take longer to fade. The real issue is grip on the road. I make sure of enough rubber grease is used to help slow down the rust from water ingress at the back of the piston and the covering boot. My opinion.
There's also a hose at the rear diff that will need to be replaced too. I thought you were gonna say that no one bleeds them right. That would also be a problem
Another less common problem with old vehicle brake hoses is a rupture in the inner core! The symptoms: The customer complains that the vehicle brakes great all of the time, but after a while there are almost zero brakes even as the brake pedal is good under sudden and/or heavy braking.
Prognosis: After the operation, the temperature of the brakes is reached, and under heavy braking, the inner core ruptures and backs up and blocks the passage of fluid.
Diagnosis: Bleed the brakes in stages from the master cylinder until you arrive at the blockage.
Note: This can be a frustrating problem to diagnose and remedy because simple observation of the brake hoses won't reveal that a hose is defective on the inside.
However, the bigger problem is test driving while trying to diagnose this particular problem!
Properly adjusted drums will supply ample braking, if in good condition. They suffer from fade if overheated but are fine for any daily driver.
My Dad had a 71 Maverick 4 door back in the early 80's he drove for a work car and used it to haul the 16ft Glassmaster for fishing. I remember several times coming up to the road for the boat ramp off the main highway and my dad yelling "we'll have to come back around" because those 4 drums just couldn't stop us. Funny as hell now but not so funny back then. We finally got a 71 Chevy C10 and it had front discs but no power assist but it stopped fine. I actually prefer non power assist brakes but they've been gone for a long time. I had an 88 S-10 with manual brakes but my 90 S-10 had power assist.
But no, 4 wheel drum brakes suck donkey balls.
One my early experiences with brakes was on dad's manx style dunebuggy. Every time I hit the brakes it would pull hard to the right. It took me a long time to figure out that one of the front rubber brake lines was collapsed on the inside. The outside still looked perfect. Never judge a book by its cover. 😅
I agree to Uncle Tony, thanks for the Braking News!
Just remember, the drum brakes were on all four corners of a lot of cars until 1975, unless someone paid extra for the disc front brakes. So the brake line replacement is fine for the disc/drum setup, but I have serious reservations about running drums on all four corners. Unless it's a numbers matching restoration, it's probably better to have the front brakes upgraded to disc, so you don't have to worry about brake fade. Heat in the brakes is bad, and drums are a major source of heat being held in. I don't want to write a novel, but I'm sure Tony knows what I'm talking about, and can explain it better.
My wife daily drives a 1970 f250 with manual 4wheel drums and it stops better than my 2018 power wagon nothing wrong with old brakes if they are working correctly
Important information, thanks for sharing, wow !
I take my hoses out and lay them on the hood in the hot Calif sun to get them to relax. Don't forget to use the painted stripe to keep from twisting the hose up on tightening.
Many times these clogged brake hoses will act as a check valve, which will lead to a partial or tiny braking on wheels when you are not pressing on brake pedal which will lead to an overheated and warped discs and caliper or wheel cylinder damage. Depending on mileage, it is advised to change brake hoses every 14 years. Another problem on hoses are balooning while pressing on brakes which is a danger compromizes brake efficiency. Take Care.
I swapped my 3 rubber brake hoses out about 3 months ago and on test run when I applied the pedal I locked the tires up , huge difference
I have an aircooled volkswagen with modern radial tyres and the stock (front discs, rear drums) brake system revamped with new stock parts and it brakes better than some modern cars I've driven, with not much more pressure needed on the pedal compared to a vacuum boosted system. In fact, I think it brakes too much, so I aways step lightly on the brakes.
A Ghia or Type 3/4? Or did Super Beetles have front disc?
They can become a one way Valve then lock up or slow release
Well explained Tony, always educational.
This video reminds me of a similar situation in the current E Bike World. In the past few years Hydraulic brakes are the newest #Fad on Bikes, I argue with people all the time, that properly maintained Cable actuated Mechanical Disc brakes, stop a bike just as well as the new fangled Hydraulics. They always try to prove me wrong, but they can't, Hydraulics require tubes of Mineral oil getting pump by the levers thru plastic tubbing. They are a pain in the butt to service, they are messy, expensive & most people can not fix them themselves, & they don't do anything at all to improve anything. I'll take my old style Mechanicals all day long.
Good info Mr T, but you got black brake hose crud on your lips from blowing air through it 😂
my 90' civic burst a brake line (passenger front) and I ended up replacing all 4 and was impressed in the brake feel afterwards.
But Tony, doncha know the rear brakes do nothing at all because weight transfer magically happens! Actually you're to some degree wrong about pressures, the rears do handle the same amount of pressure as the front (unless the master is staggered) until the point where the prop valve kicks in which might be correlated to around .3 or .4g of decel. Learning about brake system design and the ideal brake curve/weight transfer really opened my eyes to how good old cars brake systems are. You're absolutely right about the hoses and wheel cylinders, pressure isn't magic or absolute, it gets to where it is because the system does have some deflection, the pedal moves because the fluid displaces. If that hose is blocked, it can't displace fluid, and what that does is prevent you from actuating the front brakes! You might stand on that pedal, but if the fluid can't move, it's as though the rear brakes stuck a 2x4 under your brake pedal. Aircooled VW people drive me fucking crazy because they refuse to accept that weight transfer doesn't happen by magic and by just tossing discs on the front they throw the bias wildly out of whack and actually REDUCE the braking performance.
Great video Tony!
Thanks Tony! Great instruction as usual.