Watch our reactions to the Shore Leave episodes from Star Trek: The Original Series & The Animated Series! Star Trek TOS: Shore Leave - ruclips.net/video/f_66NoScwmE/видео.html&ab_channel=TargetAudience Star Trek TAS: Once Upon a Planet - ruclips.net/video/s2wMxHgeOIQ/видео.html&ab_channel=TargetAudience
Gene Roddenberry's ideal Star Trek episode is the Captain giving a speech about Roddenberry's philosophy of life while a full-on porno happens in the background.
I've always thought of this episode as the "most Roddenberry" episode in the "most Roddenberry" TNG season, in all the different good and bad ways that this can be true.
Roddenberry had pretty much a stranglehold on creativity during season one and two. It's not surprising he alienated the writers and others that came from the TOS days, not to mention his lawyer doing a lot of illegal cheap behind the scenes.
This episode contains one of my favorite Picard lines ever: "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute" This episode is actually about zero-tolerance.
It also includes one of my favorites, which puts Consequentialism and Utilitarianism on blast, about refusing to let the important moral dilemma be settled by arithmetic.
Wil Wheaton does a lot of Star Trek stuff and is super approachable at cons. He was aware of all of the negative response he and his character recieved in fandom as it was happening but had no power to change anything. It used to hurt him but he's learned to laugh about it .
I personally never understood all the hate that Wesley Crusher got. Wesley was the one character that I related to the most, due in large part to the fact that Wil Wheaton and I are literally a year apart in age to the very day (Wil Wheaton and I share the same birthday)
@@karlsmith2570 Wesley got hate because he was a badly-written wish-fulfillment role for Eugene Wesley Roddenberry. Unfortunately, too much of that hate spilled over onto Wil Wheaton the actor, who deserved no blame at all for the way his character was written and who seems to be a generally great and smart guy.
When I was stationed in Okinawa, during orientation we were told that if we did something wrong off-base, we were in Okinawan jurisdiction, and therefore On Our Own.
I've said it before and I will say it again. This long awaited return to Star Trek was welcomed in 1987 after 18 years without a TV series. These were fresh and new for those of us who waited 18 years…and a brand new experience for those new to Star Trek at the time. The world had changed and so did the series. It was wonderful to see a new crew… new to us and new to each other… as they acclimate to each other during the first year of this series. Just as it is often true in real life, it takes time to gel…and gel they do.
The location used was the Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation Plant & Japanese Garden in Van Nuys. It's used a lot when they need a site that looks futuristic. So you'll be seeing it again in other episodes and also in other series too.
You guys mentioned that the issue resolved itself suddenly. I disagree, the way I interpreted this episode was that Picard and his crew were going to do the wrong thing and just leave. The god voice was preventing them from beaming out to begin with. At that point pick a card started explaining their point of view, when suddenly they're beaming away out of nowhere. This is because the god voice was listening to Picard. He understood where Picard was coming from and decided to allow them to beam up.
The "being" actually serves a crucial purpose. Josh, you say "I don't think could work here because of corruption." The caretaker IS the enforcement of the law. It is essentially incorruptible. All the people there know of the laws and of its enforcement. That's why it works for them. It's essentially a dictatorship where the dictator has the power to back up the rules it makes. But because it isn't inherently evil, the people accept the laws set down and abide by them. I do think it was interesting when the observer guys ask Wes, "You admit this freely?" with surprise. That suggests, though, that not everyone who breaks the laws on this planet just bow down to the caretaker's power and law. Some people would try to lie, it seems. The biggest shortcoming of this era of storytelling on TV, is that they almost never revisit past planets. So we'll never know any of the further stories these worlds have to tell. How did what happen to Wes change them? I think him getting to leave would have a huge impact on how they view their laws, which is exactly why the Prime Directive exists.
I never got the impression that the god-being made the laws of the Edo. I always thought that the Edo made their own laws, and the god-being was preventing the Starfleet officers from mistreating the Edo by violating their own Prime Directive (not obeying local laws).
The 26th episode of the sixth season which was a two part episode titled, "Descent." That's a revisit of a past episode. It's not quite the same to what you're talking about but similar. I'm being very vague so as to not spoil anything but it's centered around the outcome of a previous episode. The crew at the time thought they were making the best decision but many episodes later it turned out to have unforeseen consequences.
The best thing about this episode was establishing to all the new fans who were not TOS fans just what the Prime Directive. And the judicial system isn't without precedent in our own planet.
The Prime Directive reminds me of those double yellow lines on highways. You’re not supposed to cross them; you get penalized if you get caught doing it. But sometimes, extenuating circumstances may dictate breaking that rule, or at least considering it as a viable option.
Picard's "I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that" seemed like a rebuke to Spock's "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And after years, decades, of "the Prime Directive", I think many of us figured out it was also a mass of loopholes waiting to happen. But this episode always gave me the willies. Roddenberry was stuck in a "free love" blind spot from the sixties, not figuring out, as people eventually did, that it was just another problematic idea. PS I was a kid in the sixties.
Funny thing is just a couple days ago Wheaton instagrammed from the park where this was shot and pointed the approximate spot where Wesley trespassed. It was at the Huntington Library in Pasadena.
Thank you for uploading a few of these a week. From the start of TNG to the end of Enterprise, I don't feel like spending 18 years like we did in real life!
I've always thought if you put Picard's and Riker's personalities together you get Kirk's. Sometimes Kirk's reason dominated, and sometimes his action man persona did.
The Prime Directive was supposed to be "Don't give tech or knowledge to any people that haven't developed warp drive or FTL communications yet because no matter how good your intentions are, it screws them up." Then somehow it became a religion. Waiting for Warp Drive or Subspace radio makes sense, since by the time they have FTL capabilities they're going to discover there's other people and strange stuff out there anyway, so they may as well discover us first. We are pretty nice. Imagine having your people's First Contact experience be with Klingons during their expansionistic era. Not fun.
"Justice" is probably the third TNG episode I actually liked, mostly for the scene where the god ship suddenly appears and Picard rushes to get the Eloi off the ship and that Picard, unlike Kirk, freely admits he's violating the Prime Directive and doesn't try to rationalize it. I will admit, though, that one problem I've always had with this episode is that it seemed during the first season, we were presented with an all-Black planet and an all-white planet.
I'm glad that both of you are enjoying the journey, Josh, won't be disappointed as there are some really good upcoming episodes which deal with philosophical questions, as Data's character evolves he/it becomes far better, all of the characters get better but for me the three which have the greatest growth are, Data, Geordie and Worf.
Enjoyed the commentary/discussion. In case you've never watched Minority Report (Spielberg), you should check it out. One of its central themes is about the morality of measures meant to eradicate crime. Not as cut and dried as you might imagine. Terrific movie to boot.
Fun fact since y'all are TOS fans. In the transporter room, the ceiling of the transporter pad is actually the floor from the TOS transporter pad. Also the transporter effect for TNG was done by putting glitter in water and stirring it.
"Nice planet" This is similar to the TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon". So it offers a nice contrast between how Kirk handled the situation and how Picard handled it. Granted, the stakes were much higher for Kirk. It really sets up the differences between TOS and TNG.
I don't think the parallel is quite there. In "A Taste of Armageddon," there's no sense that the Prime Directive includes obeying local laws at all costs. That seems to have been added in "Justice." Kirk never wrestles with the idea of "Well we SHOULD walk into disintegration booths by our own rules, but that's not fair." Kirk's dilemma is "You're not fighting a war; you're just killing your own people because a machine told you to, and the machines are never going to stop telling to kill your own people."
If you enjoy the ethics and philosophy angle, you have a lot to look forward to. There are many such episodes in TNG. A particularly good episode of this type that will be coming up for you relatively quickly is The Measure Of A Man, in the middle of season 2.
As for repercussions, it's not necessarily that the Edo think they can get away with breaking laws (it's kinda implied when the mediator is surprised that Wesley admits what he did), but they could become very xenophobic, especially if they view all outsiders now as unpredictable and lawless....or maybe they just start posting signs!
lol. no, not a college campus or Gene's house. If you are interested in visiting the location for this episode it's free. Its a Japanese garden called SuihoEn in East San Fernando Valley. Its used multiple times for Star Trek. Free, but you you need to make a reservation.
I miss the Type 1 phasers, they were so practical in-universe. They get rid of them over time, I don't know why. Probably because they thought as props they were too small to look good on camera but if it worked in the 60's it could totally work in the 80's and onwards.
In the book The Art of Star Trek, the reason they got rid of the small phaser is exactly what you're thinking. It usually can't be seen in a characters hand that well on television, so for new viewers to not be confused, they decided to stop using them on the show. The 60's version of the Type 1 phaser was still large enough to be easily seen but the newer TNG version was fairly small. They also lost a ton of them and had to keep making new props. Apparently lots of them got stolen, so a larger prop that isn't so easily hidden in a pocket was another reason to phase it out of use. PS That was a pun, the last part there. Phase it out of use. Phase out the phaser.
4:17 - "Man" meant human, not male. That's like saying no one had been to North America, completely discounting the Native Americans, when it simply meant that no one from _Europe_ had been there.
No spoilers, I can’t wait till you guys get to Deep Space 9. I know that’s a ways out, but the morality and philosophy fostered in TNG really goes hard in that show. Seeing you guys fall in love with this show is great though. I grew up watching reruns of TNG, so seeing you go from episode to episode and learning about the crew and the universe building is a lot of fun. There’s some other stuff I’m dying to see your reaction to in later seasons, but we’ll get there.
Wesley cracks me up in this episode. I have Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds in my mind shouting “Nerd” at Wesley every time he fails to pick up or straight up fumbles every attempt the space thot makes at hooking up.
Lol at the patreon that mentioned Wesley's execution. I remember Wil Wheaton receiving so much hate for Wesley and I have to admit, I was on that boat, too.
@@ShamrockParticle Yeah, I don't disagree, whatsoever. I know it caused Wheaton some huge issues and, while I never went on forums to hate on him or speak ill of him, I was definitely a Wesley hater.
@@alucard624I'm not sure about that. I identified with Wesley when I was young watching TNG. Now I can see the provlems. Jar Jar was annoying from the start.
I'm not defending Gene's horniness, but let's remember this man was in his heyday during the 'Free Love' late 60's. I am also sure he was part of the swinger/orgy crowd of the 70's too. That was just his culture LOL!
It's very interesting that you guys say that those philosophical conversations are something you love about these episodes, because i remember that being something that annoyed many Trek fans back in the day when Season 1 first aired. "Oh, great, another conference. Kirk would have just taken action without consulting half the crew by now!" Over time they found a better balance and I think that's part of why some fans have a negative opinion of season 1.
It gets better, Much better. Much, much better. I could do a short-list of essential S1-S2 episodes for you to watch. But I'm guessing you want the full experience., warts and all
ive been watching next gen for the first time, and watching these reactions with you feels like im watching star trek with some friends. thanks for these vids ❤
Since the first episode it' been no one - a subtle change you didn't notice until now. Yes the scouting party boned - Geordi just said they make love at the drop of the hat.
Alex busting Josh's balls for being his favorite TNG episode, but being critical of it XD It was funny b/c Alex and Josh know that he's just busting his balls and that we can like a thing, but still point out some shortcomings.
15:36 I always though it was weird when someone was still moving or talking half way through the beam-up process. I mean, are you fully conscience the whole time your molecules are being stripped away?
I always accepted, from the original series, that they were frozen during that process. Heaven forbid that they move and their molecules (and body parts) get smeared as they're materialized. ;)
I can see why the "God space station thing" was in this. It is the enforcement, the reason to not just go "screw this noise, we're leaving" beyond prime directive philosophy. Whether it was handled well or not is a different matter.
"They make love at the drop of a hat". "Let's send a teenage boy down to decide if this a good place to entertain young people." Great idea, Picard. If it was not for that Edo kid throwing the ball into the planters, this would not have happened. In fact, he might have been on the execution block if Wesley had pulled up on making the catch (had to show off for the girl, I guess).
I like this episode. The morality discussion is great and I like how mysterious the caretaker entity is. It's strong enough to be threatening to the Star Fleet flagship but not plainly evil, like many of the TOS villains are. I'll ignore the obvious flaws. ;)
I think it's great you can bring an open mind to these early and little-loved episodes. You had good insight to pick out the glimmer of what TNG would become with the Picard-Data scene. I agree with the others who said this was a very Roddenberry episode, for good and for ill. Watch out for the Edo 'god' spaceship-thing model reappearing much later in a very different role!
You mentioned there was no trial or courts on the planet, but I think the writer wrote around that by having the policeman say "So you freely admit what you did?" Case closed.
At this point I'm not sure what you guys know about the prime directive. Could you give us your thoughts on what you've gleaned so far from everything you have watched. It may help you to better understand how it limits starfleets involvement with other species in specific ways. It may also bring up questions as to whether it is correct to follow the directive in every scenario and how often it is adhered to or bent or broken.
I assume there is a clause in the Prime Directive that allows prior stated rules to be ignored if the life of a Starfleet member is at risk. Basically, there is the responsibility to do everything possible to not violate the Prime Directive, but if necessary to save a life it can be amended to the extent that the situation requires.
No, they make clear later that it's exactly the opposite: the Prime Directive means people have to die if necessary, no matter if it's an entire planet's worth. Of course, STAR TREK captains with television shows get away with outright breaking the PD, but that doesn't change what the rule is.
One version of the PD states something to the effect of adherence being so necessary that Starfleet personnel would be required to risk their lives to defend it. I'm the biggest defender of the PD, but that's one exception I would agree with. The only drawback is that Starfleet basically poisons any goodwill that the Federation would hope to have with that civilization going forward.
The Prime Directive is... primary. Of course it requires Starfleet personnel to die before violating it. Interpretations, however, can sometimes differ. And once in a great while captains decide to more or less violate it and accept the consequences. But it remains the primary, #1, rule of Starfleet. (Presumably it applies to everyone in the Federation, but they've never said that explicitly, best as I recall.)
The thing I remember most about this episode is Marina Sirtis getting pissed that there was this "young, cute actress" as she put it and she got a "good wig". Sirtis threw a bit of a fit and got the wig changed. You can see the obvious difference between the shots on the planet and the ones when she is being transported onto the Enterprise. That and the fact that all the half-naked people are running around a shit plant - waste water processing plant.
Isn't it a very bad idea to take a starship into the unknown, where experience has taught us there is danger and potential disaster, and bring aling civilian spouses and children? If 50 officers get killed on a mission, do we turn back and drop off the surviving families? Their relatives, friends, support systems are all likely back on earth or a populated area of the federation. How do we take care of everyone? Does each surviving officer have to look after a group of families?
16:28 Yes yes yes. This is why I know you are a bigger Trek fan than Star wars. Laser swords and space battles are great but ultimately meaningless without real exploration of philosophy, metaphysics, theology, morality, responsibility/duty etc.
Star wars served it's purpose: to momentarily entertain an audience with a simple story of good vs evil and make them forget about life during the 70s (terrorism, Watergate, inflation, energy crisis) for 2hrs.
i used to think this episode was terrible but after a recent re-watch i think its kinda entertaining ...lol Take this over a lot of the new recent Trek we have gotten since 2009....
Not the worst episode, but not too far from the bottom. The fact that you actually said it’s your favorite episode makes me both laugh my butt off and anxiously look forward to future episodes.
If you liked the second act of this episode, you'll like a lot of what TNG has then. That's where it shines. The episode had some great points like when one on the planet says "We cannot allow ignorance of the law to be an [excuse]" While in this case, we think, that's a bit much, but that is a reason we apply to things. I think the series does a great job showing how much of our beliefs are actually arbitrary (Not to say that is wrong). Its a ways away but S02E09 is a really great episode that touches on morality, philosophy, etc.
I appreciate that you gents are apprehensive when it comes to sequel episodes, but I think it's worth noting that you might have a different perspective had you too waited decades before the franchise resumed on the small screen, and TOS not been so fresh in your minds. Just a thought.
STC "revisited" several TOS eps. They were more continuations than rehashes. I consider Naked Now as a rehash for example. For sure, today's binging culture certainly changes the viewing experience...especially with episodic TV.
Wow, that was cool that Josh liked the episode so much. It's probably one of the better episodes of s1, but I hadn't thought that much about this episode in quite some time, but I liked and agreed with Josh's points about the philosophical aspects and the conversation with Picard and Data and, like Josh mentioned w/o being condescending to the Edo civilization. As always, thanks for the reaction!
As someone who watched this on its first run, this was the first episode that I considered to be the first one that felt like “real” Star Trek to me, so for a time, it was my favorite. I’ll leave it at that for now.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
Watch our reactions to the Shore Leave episodes from Star Trek: The Original Series & The Animated Series!
Star Trek TOS: Shore Leave - ruclips.net/video/f_66NoScwmE/видео.html&ab_channel=TargetAudience
Star Trek TAS: Once Upon a Planet - ruclips.net/video/s2wMxHgeOIQ/видео.html&ab_channel=TargetAudience
Star Trek: TnA … I mean TNG…
It's sooooo funny that it took eight episodes to realize the opening monologue had been changed to "... no one..."
Gene Roddenberry's ideal Star Trek episode is the Captain giving a speech about Roddenberry's philosophy of life while a full-on porno happens in the background.
“Shut up Wesley”.. Josh is already saying it 😂
Ah yes. The episode where Wesley discovered just how dangerous the Keep Off the Grass sign can be.
I really wish the god voice said 'get off my lawn'
@@tensix5481: lol.
There was no sign? Screw those people. Take "the boy" and get outta dodge. Episode over.
I too was a series-long cheerleader of Dr Beverly, my favorite character.
I've always thought of this episode as the "most Roddenberry" episode in the "most Roddenberry" TNG season, in all the different good and bad ways that this can be true.
Roddenberry had pretty much a stranglehold on creativity during season one and two. It's not surprising he alienated the writers and others that came from the TOS days, not to mention his lawyer doing a lot of illegal cheap behind the scenes.
The set used in the outdoor scenes is a water treatment plant which later becomes Starfleet academy
This episode contains one of my favorite Picard lines ever:
"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute"
This episode is actually about zero-tolerance.
It also includes one of my favorites, which puts Consequentialism and Utilitarianism on blast, about refusing to let the important moral dilemma be settled by arithmetic.
Wil Wheaton does a lot of Star Trek stuff and is super approachable at cons. He was aware of all of the negative response he and his character recieved in fandom as it was happening but had no power to change anything. It used to hurt him but he's learned to laugh about it .
Wil pointed out that at one con a writer participated in Wesley hating panel as if he/she wasn't writing for the character.
Wesley took his family to one of the locations in this episode this week in a vlog he did. Weird coincidence.
I personally never understood all the hate that Wesley Crusher got.
Wesley was the one character that I related to the most, due in large part to the fact that Wil Wheaton and I are literally a year apart in age to the very day (Wil Wheaton and I share the same birthday)
@@karlsmith2570 Wesley got hate because he was a badly-written wish-fulfillment role for Eugene Wesley Roddenberry.
Unfortunately, too much of that hate spilled over onto Wil Wheaton the actor, who deserved no blame at all for the way his character was written and who seems to be a generally great and smart guy.
Most of it was jealousy. I hope nobody actually gave The man, Wil wheaton, any bullshit.
Filmed in the Japanese garden on the grounds of the Donald C Tillman water reclamation plant in Van Nuys, California. A favourite location for Trek.
YOU CALLED HER DR. BEVERLY! 🥳🎉🥳🎉🥳🎉 13:43 !!!!
I love it! Excellent reaction!
When I was stationed in Okinawa, during orientation we were told that if we did something wrong off-base, we were in Okinawan jurisdiction, and therefore On Our Own.
I love how quickly you're banging these out. Trust us, it gets a lot better.
I love Picard's statement at the end where he says there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute.
I've said it before and I will say it again. This long awaited return to Star Trek was welcomed in 1987 after 18 years without a TV series. These were fresh and new for those of us who waited 18 years…and a brand new experience for those new to Star Trek at the time. The world had changed and so did the series. It was wonderful to see a new crew… new to us and new to each other… as they acclimate to each other during the first year of this series. Just as it is often true in real life, it takes time to gel…and gel they do.
The location used was the Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation Plant & Japanese Garden in Van Nuys. It's used a lot when they need a site that looks futuristic. So you'll be seeing it again in other episodes and also in other series too.
You guys mentioned that the issue resolved itself suddenly.
I disagree, the way I interpreted this episode was that Picard and his crew were going to do the wrong thing and just leave. The god voice was preventing them from beaming out to begin with. At that point pick a card started explaining their point of view, when suddenly they're beaming away out of nowhere. This is because the god voice was listening to Picard. He understood where Picard was coming from and decided to allow them to beam up.
Pick a card lol :-)
And, Picard seems to attribute the convincing point to Riker and his rulebook point.
@@alanwest5788 ♣3
Guys, something's wrong, they're enjoying this awesome show that we love.
The "being" actually serves a crucial purpose. Josh, you say "I don't think could work here because of corruption." The caretaker IS the enforcement of the law. It is essentially incorruptible. All the people there know of the laws and of its enforcement. That's why it works for them. It's essentially a dictatorship where the dictator has the power to back up the rules it makes. But because it isn't inherently evil, the people accept the laws set down and abide by them.
I do think it was interesting when the observer guys ask Wes, "You admit this freely?" with surprise. That suggests, though, that not everyone who breaks the laws on this planet just bow down to the caretaker's power and law. Some people would try to lie, it seems. The biggest shortcoming of this era of storytelling on TV, is that they almost never revisit past planets. So we'll never know any of the further stories these worlds have to tell. How did what happen to Wes change them? I think him getting to leave would have a huge impact on how they view their laws, which is exactly why the Prime Directive exists.
I never got the impression that the god-being made the laws of the Edo. I always thought that the Edo made their own laws, and the god-being was preventing the Starfleet officers from mistreating the Edo by violating their own Prime Directive (not obeying local laws).
The 26th episode of the sixth season which was a two part episode titled, "Descent." That's a revisit of a past episode. It's not quite the same to what you're talking about but similar. I'm being very vague so as to not spoil anything but it's centered around the outcome of a previous episode. The crew at the time thought they were making the best decision but many episodes later it turned out to have unforeseen consequences.
The best thing about this episode was establishing to all the new fans who were not TOS fans just what the Prime Directive. And the judicial system isn't without precedent in our own planet.
The Prime Directive reminds me of those double yellow lines on highways. You’re not supposed to cross them; you get penalized if you get caught doing it. But sometimes, extenuating circumstances may dictate breaking that rule, or at least considering it as a viable option.
Picard's "I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that" seemed like a rebuke to Spock's "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And after years, decades, of "the Prime Directive", I think many of us figured out it was also a mass of loopholes waiting to happen. But this episode always gave me the willies. Roddenberry was stuck in a "free love" blind spot from the sixties, not figuring out, as people eventually did, that it was just another problematic idea. PS I was a kid in the sixties.
The simultaneous "Wwoooo!!" was priceless 😆
Funny thing is just a couple days ago Wheaton instagrammed from the park where this was shot and pointed the approximate spot where Wesley trespassed. It was at the Huntington Library in Pasadena.
This planet was like a PG rated version of something you would see on Lexx.
Thank you for uploading a few of these a week. From the start of TNG to the end of Enterprise, I don't feel like spending 18 years like we did in real life!
Picard definitely deals with the problem differently than Kirk would have. We’re starting to see these characters come into their own.
Thats what I love about Picard and usually dislike about Kirk.
That's what I love about Kirk and I usually dislike about Picard.
I've always thought if you put Picard's and Riker's personalities together you get Kirk's. Sometimes Kirk's reason dominated, and sometimes his action man persona did.
Josh, your "embarrassed teenager" voice is amazing lol
The Prime Directive was supposed to be "Don't give tech or knowledge to any people that haven't developed warp drive or FTL communications yet because no matter how good your intentions are, it screws them up." Then somehow it became a religion.
Waiting for Warp Drive or Subspace radio makes sense, since by the time they have FTL capabilities they're going to discover there's other people and strange stuff out there anyway, so they may as well discover us first. We are pretty nice. Imagine having your people's First Contact experience be with Klingons during their expansionistic era. Not fun.
"Justice" is probably the third TNG episode I actually liked, mostly for the scene where the god ship suddenly appears and Picard rushes to get the Eloi off the ship and that Picard, unlike Kirk, freely admits he's violating the Prime Directive and doesn't try to rationalize it. I will admit, though, that one problem I've always had with this episode is that it seemed during the first season, we were presented with an all-Black planet and an all-white planet.
Any time Trek mentions a "routine mapping survey" or shore leave, you just KNOW shit's about to hit the fan.
I'm glad that both of you are enjoying the journey, Josh, won't be disappointed as there are some really good upcoming episodes which deal with philosophical questions, as Data's character evolves he/it becomes far better, all of the characters get better but for me the three which have the greatest growth are, Data, Geordie and Worf.
Enjoyed the commentary/discussion. In case you've never watched Minority Report (Spielberg), you should check it out. One of its central themes is about the morality of measures meant to eradicate crime. Not as cut and dried as you might imagine. Terrific movie to boot.
It would be a thought-crime if they haven't seen it.
It only took eight episodes to bring out "Shut up, Wesley!"
Fun fact since y'all are TOS fans. In the transporter room, the ceiling of the transporter pad is actually the floor from the TOS transporter pad. Also the transporter effect for TNG was done by putting glitter in water and stirring it.
5:05 "Yeah, yeah, kick down, sparky." XD
"Nice planet"
This is similar to the TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon". So it offers a nice contrast between how Kirk handled the situation and how Picard handled it. Granted, the stakes were much higher for Kirk. It really sets up the differences between TOS and TNG.
I don't think the parallel is quite there. In "A Taste of Armageddon," there's no sense that the Prime Directive includes obeying local laws at all costs. That seems to have been added in "Justice." Kirk never wrestles with the idea of "Well we SHOULD walk into disintegration booths by our own rules, but that's not fair." Kirk's dilemma is "You're not fighting a war; you're just killing your own people because a machine told you to, and the machines are never going to stop telling to kill your own people."
There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute.
If you enjoy the ethics and philosophy angle, you have a lot to look forward to. There are many such episodes in TNG. A particularly good episode of this type that will be coming up for you relatively quickly is The Measure Of A Man, in the middle of season 2.
As for repercussions, it's not necessarily that the Edo think they can get away with breaking laws (it's kinda implied when the mediator is surprised that Wesley admits what he did), but they could become very xenophobic, especially if they view all outsiders now as unpredictable and lawless....or maybe they just start posting signs!
The location is a water treatment facility I believe. It’s been used in other shows and movies; Biodome used it as the main entrance.
Great reaction, guys. Thank you for your efforts.
lol. no, not a college campus or Gene's house.
If you are interested in visiting the location for this episode it's free. Its a Japanese garden called SuihoEn in East San Fernando Valley. Its used multiple times for Star Trek. Free, but you you need to make a reservation.
I think the location for this episode was a sewerage water treatment plant. if I remember the commentaries on it correctly.
I miss the Type 1 phasers, they were so practical in-universe. They get rid of them over time, I don't know why. Probably because they thought as props they were too small to look good on camera but if it worked in the 60's it could totally work in the 80's and onwards.
In the book The Art of Star Trek, the reason they got rid of the small phaser is exactly what you're thinking. It usually can't be seen in a characters hand that well on television, so for new viewers to not be confused, they decided to stop using them on the show. The 60's version of the Type 1 phaser was still large enough to be easily seen but the newer TNG version was fairly small. They also lost a ton of them and had to keep making new props. Apparently lots of them got stolen, so a larger prop that isn't so easily hidden in a pocket was another reason to phase it out of use.
PS That was a pun, the last part there. Phase it out of use. Phase out the phaser.
@@My-Name-Isnt-Important Your pun really hit the target.
4:17 - "Man" meant human, not male.
That's like saying no one had been to North America, completely discounting the Native Americans, when it simply meant that no one from _Europe_ had been there.
16:50 Yessss. TNG will deliver this many times over 😁
You know what's extra amazing about the location shoot? It's a water reclamation plant 😁
No spoilers, I can’t wait till you guys get to Deep Space 9. I know that’s a ways out, but the morality and philosophy fostered in TNG really goes hard in that show. Seeing you guys fall in love with this show is great though. I grew up watching reruns of TNG, so seeing you go from episode to episode and learning about the crew and the universe building is a lot of fun. There’s some other stuff I’m dying to see your reaction to in later seasons, but we’ll get there.
“Shut up Wesley!”
Wesley cracks me up in this episode. I have Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds in my mind shouting “Nerd” at Wesley every time he fails to pick up or straight up fumbles every attempt the space thot makes at hooking up.
Lol at the patreon that mentioned Wesley's execution. I remember Wil Wheaton receiving so much hate for Wesley and I have to admit, I was on that boat, too.
I'm still on that boat. I mean, I don't particularly blame Wheaton, but Wesley definitely sucks.
Wil just had to act what was on paper. Why he got personal hate made no sense.
@@ShamrockParticle Yeah, I don't disagree, whatsoever. I know it caused Wheaton some huge issues and, while I never went on forums to hate on him or speak ill of him, I was definitely a Wesley hater.
Wesley has always been the Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek.
@@alucard624I'm not sure about that. I identified with Wesley when I was young watching TNG. Now I can see the provlems. Jar Jar was annoying from the start.
I'm not defending Gene's horniness, but let's remember this man was in his heyday during the 'Free Love' late 60's. I am also sure he was part of the swinger/orgy crowd of the 70's too. That was just his culture LOL!
It's very interesting that you guys say that those philosophical conversations are something you love about these episodes, because i remember that being something that annoyed many Trek fans back in the day when Season 1 first aired. "Oh, great, another conference. Kirk would have just taken action without consulting half the crew by now!" Over time they found a better balance and I think that's part of why some fans have a negative opinion of season 1.
I'm pretty sure they reuse that "space station" thing again in at least one episode in a couple seasons.
It gets better,
Much better.
Much, much better.
I could do a short-list of essential S1-S2 episodes for you to watch. But I'm guessing you want the full experience., warts and all
Part of the appreciation of the great episodes is viewing the not-so-great ones.
ive been watching next gen for the first time, and watching these reactions with you feels like im watching star trek with some friends. thanks for these vids ❤
Since the first episode it' been no one - a subtle change you didn't notice until now.
Yes the scouting party boned - Geordi just said they make love at the drop of the hat.
Coincidentally, I just found out this episode aired on nov 9 1987, so congratz on the 26th anniversary of the episode (for us youtube people)
Someone do a supercut of Josh saying "This is my favorite episode."
DO IT.
Alex busting Josh's balls for being his favorite TNG episode, but being critical of it XD
It was funny b/c Alex and Josh know that he's just busting his balls and that we can like a thing, but still point out some shortcomings.
15:36 I always though it was weird when someone was still moving or talking half way through the beam-up process. I mean, are you fully conscience the whole time your molecules are being stripped away?
I always accepted, from the original series, that they were frozen during that process. Heaven forbid that they move and their molecules (and body parts) get smeared as they're materialized. ;)
I can see why the "God space station thing" was in this. It is the enforcement, the reason to not just go "screw this noise, we're leaving" beyond prime directive philosophy. Whether it was handled well or not is a different matter.
Roddenberry was very hippie-dippie free-love, so this planet was his own personal paradise (give or take the occasional Draconian law.)
20:45 Yes, it is safe to say that Dr. Beverly cares about her son.
"They make love at the drop of a hat".
"Let's send a teenage boy down to decide if this a good place to entertain young people."
Great idea, Picard.
If it was not for that Edo kid throwing the ball into the planters, this would not have happened. In fact, he might have been on the execution block if Wesley had pulled up on making the catch (had to show off for the girl, I guess).
And people say Picard hated Wesley...
It's all fun and games until someone trods on your garden flowers.
The location is a water treatment plant I think
I like this episode. The morality discussion is great and I like how mysterious the caretaker entity is. It's strong enough to be threatening to the Star Fleet flagship but not plainly evil, like many of the TOS villains are.
I'll ignore the obvious flaws. ;)
The Data babble subplots with Picard are easily the best
--- TO EVERY FUTURE COMMENTER: NO SPOILERS ON FUTURE CONTENT, NO HINTS OF FUTURE EPISODES OR CHARACTERS PLEASE ---
Have people already spoiled anything in the comments? I've not come across anything.
@@hrs2044 Not in this one but people were getting a bit too carried away in one of the earlier ones
As you move through the series you are gonna get a lot of philosophy and profound moments that really make you think.
I think it's great you can bring an open mind to these early and little-loved episodes. You had good insight to pick out the glimmer of what TNG would become with the Picard-Data scene. I agree with the others who said this was a very Roddenberry episode, for good and for ill. Watch out for the Edo 'god' spaceship-thing model reappearing much later in a very different role!
I read somewhere that Riker has space crabs.
The episode does resolve quickly, but I think if they stuck around you'd be screaming at the TV, "It let you go, LEAVE!!!"
You mentioned there was no trial or courts on the planet, but I think the writer wrote around that by having the policeman say "So you freely admit what you did?" Case closed.
He also mentioned "ample witnesses".
He sent Wesley down to the planet so he can put the moves on Beverley XD
Now that you’ve noticed the change to “where no one has gone before,” have you noticed that theme music comes from The Motion Picture?
"Roddenberry, very progressive gentleman but when it came to sex his attitude was yes please"
Rich Evans - Red Letter Media
No, his attitude was " my hands get to go on your body or you don't get this job."
Some notion of "free love" has been an aspect of male progressive thought since the French Revolution.
I'm all for free love, but only when it's consensual.
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119: wow, antisemitic much?
At this point I'm not sure what you guys know about the prime directive. Could you give us your thoughts on what you've gleaned so far from everything you have watched.
It may help you to better understand how it limits starfleets involvement with other species in specific ways. It may also bring up questions as to whether it is correct to follow the directive in every scenario and how often it is adhered to or bent or broken.
I assume there is a clause in the Prime Directive that allows prior stated rules to be ignored if the life of a Starfleet member is at risk. Basically, there is the responsibility to do everything possible to not violate the Prime Directive, but if necessary to save a life it can be amended to the extent that the situation requires.
No, they make clear later that it's exactly the opposite: the Prime Directive means people have to die if necessary, no matter if it's an entire planet's worth.
Of course, STAR TREK captains with television shows get away with outright breaking the PD, but that doesn't change what the rule is.
One version of the PD states something to the effect of adherence being so necessary that Starfleet personnel would be required to risk their lives to defend it. I'm the biggest defender of the PD, but that's one exception I would agree with. The only drawback is that Starfleet basically poisons any goodwill that the Federation would hope to have with that civilization going forward.
The Prime Directive is... primary. Of course it requires Starfleet personnel to die before violating it.
Interpretations, however, can sometimes differ.
And once in a great while captains decide to more or less violate it and accept the consequences.
But it remains the primary, #1, rule of Starfleet. (Presumably it applies to everyone in the Federation, but they've never said that explicitly, best as I recall.)
Gotta love these early episodes before the writers fleshed out the characters...
awe, geez, maybe ST5 will be their favorite movie...
*Josh:* "I think this is at Gene's house" 6:11.😂😂
*Two minutes later:* "DO NOT INTERFERE WITH MY CHILDREN BELOW!!!"
*Josh:* Yeah, it's Gene!" 7:41🤣🤣🤣
Roddenberry's son was one of the kids on the planet...though he ended up on the cutting room floor except for a bit of the back of his head...
The thing I remember most about this episode is Marina Sirtis getting pissed that there was this "young, cute actress" as she put it and she got a "good wig". Sirtis threw a bit of a fit and got the wig changed. You can see the obvious difference between the shots on the planet and the ones when she is being transported onto the Enterprise.
That and the fact that all the half-naked people are running around a shit plant - waste water processing plant.
Isn't it a very bad idea to take a starship into the unknown, where experience has taught us there is danger and potential disaster, and bring aling civilian spouses and children? If 50 officers get killed on a mission, do we turn back and drop off the surviving families? Their relatives, friends, support systems are all likely back on earth or a populated area of the federation. How do we take care of everyone? Does each surviving officer have to look after a group of families?
The thing i never liked about this episode is how an accident is treated like an intentional crime.
Agreed. And the teens Wesley were playing with realized that, but not the adults.
16:28 Yes yes yes. This is why I know you are a bigger Trek fan than Star wars. Laser swords and space battles are great but ultimately meaningless without real exploration of philosophy, metaphysics, theology, morality, responsibility/duty etc.
Star Trek is Science Fiction! .... Star Wars is Science Fantasy!
Star wars served it's purpose: to momentarily entertain an audience with a simple story of good vs evil and make them forget about life during the 70s (terrorism, Watergate, inflation, energy crisis) for 2hrs.
The prime directive gets violated more than Councelor Troi.
i used to think this episode was terrible but after a recent re-watch i think its kinda entertaining ...lol
Take this over a lot of the new recent Trek we have gotten since 2009....
Can't wait for the next video.
Not the worst episode, but not too far from the bottom. The fact that you actually said it’s your favorite episode makes me both laugh my butt off and anxiously look forward to future episodes.
If you liked the second act of this episode, you'll like a lot of what TNG has then. That's where it shines.
The episode had some great points like when one on the planet says "We cannot allow ignorance of the law to be an [excuse]" While in this case, we think, that's a bit much, but that is a reason we apply to things. I think the series does a great job showing how much of our beliefs are actually arbitrary (Not to say that is wrong).
Its a ways away but S02E09 is a really great episode that touches on morality, philosophy, etc.
I appreciate that you gents are apprehensive when it comes to sequel episodes, but I think it's worth noting that you might have a different perspective had you too waited decades before the franchise resumed on the small screen, and TOS not been so fresh in your minds. Just a thought.
Yeah, you’re right
STC "revisited" several TOS eps. They were more continuations than rehashes. I consider Naked Now as a rehash for example.
For sure, today's binging culture certainly changes the viewing experience...especially with episodic TV.
Picard. Season one & two. anything Wesley.. "The Boy"
Wow, that was cool that Josh liked the episode so much. It's probably one of the better episodes of s1, but I hadn't thought that much about this episode in quite some time, but I liked and agreed with Josh's points about the philosophical aspects and the conversation with Picard and Data and, like Josh mentioned w/o being condescending to the Edo civilization. As always, thanks for the reaction!
As someone who watched this on its first run, this was the first episode that I considered to be the first one that felt like “real” Star Trek to me, so for a time, it was my favorite. I’ll leave it at that for now.
just repeat after me: what you live through makes you stronger