I appreciate you taking the time to share your methodology! I'm interested in coming up with a similar apparatus for balancing crankshafts. Seems like an accurate set of bob weights is going to be the key to making that work well. But it does have the advantage of the load cells being further apart than your brake rotor rig.
YES...brake rotor balancing planes were VERY close together making it difficult (nearly impractical) to balance as you stated, having more plane separation will be a big advantage in crankshaft balancing I may have a lot of industrial balancing experience but none with automotive crankshafts and the use of bob weights there was a member of our HScope Telegram group who built his own soft bearing stands (based on my design) and with ADXL345 accelerometers and back and forth group discussions successfully balanced a 5cyl crankshaft I'm tinkering with the idea of designing a heavier capacity soft bearing balancer...a hybrid of 3D printed parts and steel mending plates readily available on Amazon ... we'll see...
Hi, nice project, you are only single plane balancing in this state. Next project would be to dynamically balance in two planes, as in a automotive dynamic wheel balancer, but this is ideal for thin rotors. Without an encoder on the shaft, the scope is the only way to find position, nice job. Once you have a balanced wheel, you can calibrate your rig to a certain extent by adding weight and noting scope amplitude. Using an IMU makes sense these days, though commercial balancers use piezo pickups mounted beside the support bearings and measure side vibration.
+Tom George - Yes, this is for single plane rotors but they could be relatively thick i.e. 0.5x the diameter. 2 plane overhung rotors require something called "static/couple solution". There's computation involved. It could be done with an oscilloscope and 3 channels, but there would be many correction runs to get job done. But a 2 plane machine where the center of gravity of the rotor lies between the bearings could lend itself to this method. But, you'd need an oscilloscope with 3 channels. Also HScope doesn't support more than 2 channels and I wouldn't try this with any of the Windows software that most budget oscilloscopes come with. Welcome to the channel, Tom!
@@theGADGETSplaylist Why would you not try this 2 plane balancing, using 3 or more channels, with the Windows software that most budget oscilloscopes come with? Is it because they don't have the 720 degree overlay? Or other reasons? Does HScope have other features the typical Windows software doesn't have? If so, could you elaborate on those, or direct me toward previous videos you may have already done explaining these necessary features in more detail? I am just learning about this balancing stuff. I may have other questions latter on. Thanks so much for all the information and work you put into these videos. They have been very helpful.
@@davebabcock6887 - to do this work, you need the 720 overlay and you need software that allows you to record and scroll seamlessly through a run period. I know of no budget oscilloscope Windows software that does that. With PICOSCOPE (not budget anymore) and 3 channels and 2 accelerometers and 1 photocell and 2 bearing supports that move freely without influencing the other (not simple), yes you could do 2 plane balancing following this method.
@@davebabcock6887 - and I need to add Dave, I'm referring to 2 planes where the center of gravity lies between the bearings. It would not be practical to do 2 plane overhung rotors using any oscilloscope.
this is really a testament to the value of shared experiences! I'm inspired! be safe out there and stay well! COVID is a killer in our country, too! :)
HScope which can be found on the Google Play Store Full app function for any supported oscilloscope require license. These tend to be in the $10 to $15 range.
Hi Dennis, Lately I have been very interested in NVH and balancing thanks to your great content and gadgets. Your channel has been an huge motivator for me to learn new things. One question I have is how you index the disk by lining up the reference mark on the degrees and then lune up the photocell. I may be over thinking it but would lining up 0 deg on your reference tape then adding weight at or opposite the degrees obtained from your measurement result in the same outcome? I am sure there is a reason you do it how shown. As I have witnessed in your videos balancing is an acquired skill with a lot to know. I would of never thought this is something I would ever have any interest in but you make it seem very interesting. Thanks again for the great content.
"would lining up 0 deg on your reference tape then adding weight at or opposite the degrees obtained from your measurement result in the same outcome?" I'm getting a headache just trying to visualize it Jesse:) better to reference the mark and then apply weight inline with accelerometer plane...as shown here...and as will be consistently shown in all balancing videos...
I sent you my headache. Sorry about that. Yes as shown in the video much easier to keep track of. I am trying to decide on the next gadget. Looking at trying your HS Gas . I will wait to purchase the HS-ACCEL kit once available.
@@jessemackenzie6516 HS-ACCEL will retail $999 ... so much work into building each kit ... and why development is taking so long...must make absolutely sure it's 100% ready!
@@theGADGETSplaylist Your efforts are VERY much appreciated. I wish you had a Patreon or some way for us to show appreciation for the time you take not only to show your gadgets , but the time you take to post them. As far as the HS -ACCEL goes, $999 is a steal for a product designed by people with a dedication to quality and someone who uses the equipment as well. When HS502 had $999 as a placeholder I thought that was the real cost. I was happy to pay that . I know of no other product that the developer is readily available to answer questions from everyday users and implement features that the community suggests. I am happy to wait for the release as I am sure it will be worth every cent!!
good catch on your part! this is an accelerometer after all and G might have been a more appropriate unit I took liberties here...mils is a unit of displacement, what I've been accustomed to with the transducers on our industrial soft bearing balancers at work As this video is also soft bearing, I created a probe setting that approximated mils You'll notice in subsequent balancing related videos I do use G In the end, it really doesn't matter much Thanks for the comment:)
@@theGADGETSplaylist Thank you for your reply. By the way, your videos stand out with your good explanations and organizied production. Even the lighting is good! This really is good stuff!
Fascinating demonstration. You say it must be operated above the "transition" period speed to get the required information. It would have been interesting (and maybe pointless to the video!) to see the waveform after the transition as the shaft slows down and if theres any usable information in the waveform.
@@theGADGETSplaylist Ok I see. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. All good stuff. If you ever wanted to do a video focusing on the theory side and how polygons are used etc... Take care.
Just found your content. This is amazing information. One question regarding this soft bearing balancer: have you balanced just the rotor where you mounted the plywood disc? Or can we assume that the noise generated by the threaded rod and nuts is so small that it can be disregarded?
Threaded rod and nuts are at such a small radius that yes, can be disregarded. The method can be adapted as in GAGDETS#59 with 4 bladed lawnmower. And could be scaled in size to do automotive wheels. Same sensors and procedure.
@@theGADGETSplaylist Thank you for taking your time to answer me. I find this balancing/testing field very fascinating, even though I have never had any contact with it. That is perhaps why I have a few questions. One of these is: suppose you want to balance a dual blade exactly as in your GADGETS#54, but one half of it is thicker than the other blade. If we try to balance that dual blade with this method would we end up with a very short but thick blade on one side and a thin but long blade on the other side? Or is it possible to use this balancing method to know where to remove weight besides just the very tip of the blades? I mean, could we somehow interpret the results and know that one blade is thicker than the other? Or would we need some type of multiplane balancing for this type of problem I am posing you?
@@ist166317 - this is a strange situation where one half of the blade would be thicker than the other half but yes, weight could be removed off the entire length of the thicker blade half remembering that the shorter the radius the less effective that weight removal is. I recommend the "soft bearing" method of #58 & #59 and not the piezo approach experimented with in #54. Thanks for your interest in this!
+Vasco R - and the long answer is YES. If we were determined to do it. Would require 3 channels, 2 planes/stands suspended and free to swing, and a very small belt drive with speed control motor. Same photocell, same accelerometers (2) and same waveform interpretation.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate you taking the time to share your methodology! I'm interested in coming up with a similar apparatus for balancing crankshafts. Seems like an accurate set of bob weights is going to be the key to making that work well. But it does have the advantage of the load cells being further apart than your brake rotor rig.
YES...brake rotor balancing planes were VERY close together making it difficult (nearly impractical) to balance
as you stated, having more plane separation will be a big advantage in crankshaft balancing
I may have a lot of industrial balancing experience but none with automotive crankshafts and the use of bob weights
there was a member of our HScope Telegram group who built his own soft bearing stands (based on my design) and with ADXL345 accelerometers and back and forth group discussions successfully balanced a 5cyl crankshaft
I'm tinkering with the idea of designing a heavier capacity soft bearing balancer...a hybrid of 3D printed parts and steel mending plates readily available on Amazon ... we'll see...
Dennis, you are definitely a master. my respects. I'm glad to know you and I like the way you share your knowledge
Having fun here Juan, exploring what can be done with budget oscilloscopes and other inexpensive components.
We are in the same page... Just you are some steps ahead of me... I'm following you 😉👍
Amazing proof of concept! How much physics is there behind all of this?! And it works! I'm looking forward to see more!
+ Martinloren R&D - Thanks for your involvement and advice on this project, Martin.
Hi, nice project, you are only single plane balancing in this state.
Next project would be to dynamically balance in two planes, as in a automotive dynamic wheel balancer, but this is ideal for thin rotors.
Without an encoder on the shaft, the scope is the only way to find position, nice job.
Once you have a balanced wheel, you can calibrate your rig to a certain extent by adding weight and noting scope amplitude.
Using an IMU makes sense these days, though commercial balancers use piezo pickups mounted beside the support bearings and measure side vibration.
+Tom George - Yes, this is for single plane rotors but they could be relatively thick i.e. 0.5x the diameter.
2 plane overhung rotors require something called "static/couple solution". There's computation involved. It could be done with an oscilloscope and 3 channels, but there would be many correction runs to get job done.
But a 2 plane machine where the center of gravity of the rotor lies between the bearings could lend itself to this method. But, you'd need an oscilloscope with 3 channels. Also HScope doesn't support more than 2 channels and I wouldn't try this with any of the Windows software that most budget oscilloscopes come with.
Welcome to the channel, Tom!
@@theGADGETSplaylist Why would you not try this 2 plane balancing, using 3 or more channels, with the Windows software that most budget oscilloscopes come with?
Is it because they don't have the 720 degree overlay?
Or other reasons?
Does HScope have other features the typical Windows software doesn't have?
If so, could you elaborate on those, or direct me toward previous videos you may have already done explaining these necessary features in more detail?
I am just learning about this balancing stuff. I may have other questions latter on.
Thanks so much for all the information and work you put into these videos. They have been very helpful.
@@davebabcock6887 - to do this work, you need the 720 overlay and you need software that allows you to record and scroll seamlessly through a run period.
I know of no budget oscilloscope Windows software that does that.
With PICOSCOPE (not budget anymore) and 3 channels and 2 accelerometers and 1 photocell and 2 bearing supports that move freely without influencing the other (not simple), yes you could do 2 plane balancing following this method.
@@davebabcock6887 - and I need to add Dave, I'm referring to 2 planes where the center of gravity lies between the bearings.
It would not be practical to do 2 plane overhung rotors using any oscilloscope.
@@theGADGETSplaylist Thank you very much for your return comments so quickly. I am still studying this stuff.
this is really a testament to the value of shared experiences! I'm inspired! be safe out there and stay well! COVID is a killer in our country, too! :)
am pleased you appreciate the use of a budget oscilloscope for dynamic balancing...
take good care, my friend:)
Very nice. Love your channel.
thank you Michael:)
What program did you use? Opensource?
HScope which can be found on the Google Play Store
Full app function for any supported oscilloscope require license. These tend to be in the $10 to $15 range.
Hi Dennis, Lately I have been very interested in NVH and balancing thanks to your great content and gadgets. Your channel has been an huge motivator for me to learn new things. One question I have is how you index the disk by lining up the reference mark on the degrees and then lune up the photocell. I may be over thinking it but would lining up 0 deg on your reference tape then adding weight at or opposite the degrees obtained from your measurement result in the same outcome? I am sure there is a reason you do it how shown. As I have witnessed in your videos balancing is an acquired skill with a lot to know. I would of never thought this is something I would ever have any interest in but you make it seem very interesting. Thanks again for the great content.
"would lining up 0 deg on your reference tape then adding weight at or opposite the degrees obtained from your measurement result in the same outcome?"
I'm getting a headache just trying to visualize it Jesse:)
better to reference the mark and then apply weight inline with accelerometer plane...as shown here...and as will be consistently shown in all balancing videos...
I sent you my headache. Sorry about that. Yes as shown in the video much easier to keep track of. I am trying to decide on the next gadget. Looking at trying your HS Gas . I will wait to purchase the HS-ACCEL kit once available.
@@jessemackenzie6516 HS-ACCEL will retail $999 ... so much work into building each kit ...
and why development is taking so long...must make absolutely sure it's 100% ready!
@@jessemackenzie6516
PS: I don't make any $$$ form this...just playing along as a hobby, to keep occupied...
@@theGADGETSplaylist Your efforts are VERY much appreciated. I wish you had a Patreon or some way for us to show appreciation for the time you take not only to show your gadgets , but the time you take to post them. As far as the HS -ACCEL goes, $999 is a steal for a product designed by people with a dedication to quality and someone who uses the equipment as well. When HS502 had $999 as a placeholder I thought that was the real cost. I was happy to pay that . I know of no other product that the developer is readily available to answer questions from everyday users and implement features that the community suggests. I am happy to wait for the release as I am sure it will be worth every cent!!
The measurement unit is mils, what is that? Very interesting channel!
good catch on your part!
this is an accelerometer after all and G might have been a more appropriate unit
I took liberties here...mils is a unit of displacement, what I've been accustomed to with the transducers on our industrial soft bearing balancers at work
As this video is also soft bearing, I created a probe setting that approximated mils
You'll notice in subsequent balancing related videos I do use G
In the end, it really doesn't matter much
Thanks for the comment:)
@@theGADGETSplaylist Thank you for your reply. By the way, your videos stand out with your good explanations and organizied production. Even the lighting is good! This really is good stuff!
nice work,ready the transition on the scope is the part of the wave getting smaller?
+dan man - not exactly, Dan.
It looks more like a "bottle neck" and I point to it on the center of the screen on the 1st run.
Fascinating demonstration. You say it must be operated above the "transition" period speed to get the required information. It would have been interesting (and maybe pointless to the video!) to see the waveform after the transition as the shaft slows down and if theres any usable information in the waveform.
soft bearing method (pendulum) any data below the transition is of no use...
@@theGADGETSplaylist Ok I see. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. All good stuff. If you ever wanted to do a video focusing on the theory side and how polygons are used etc... Take care.
Just found your content. This is amazing information.
One question regarding this soft bearing balancer: have you balanced just the rotor where you mounted the plywood disc? Or can we assume that the noise generated by the threaded rod and nuts is so small that it can be disregarded?
Threaded rod and nuts are at such a small radius that yes, can be disregarded.
The method can be adapted as in GAGDETS#59 with 4 bladed lawnmower.
And could be scaled in size to do automotive wheels.
Same sensors and procedure.
@@theGADGETSplaylist Thank you for taking your time to answer me.
I find this balancing/testing field very fascinating, even though I have never had any contact with it. That is perhaps why I have a few questions.
One of these is: suppose you want to balance a dual blade exactly as in your GADGETS#54, but one half of it is thicker than the other blade. If we try to balance that dual blade with this method would we end up with a very short but thick blade on one side and a thin but long blade on the other side? Or is it possible to use this balancing method to know where to remove weight besides just the very tip of the blades? I mean, could we somehow interpret the results and know that one blade is thicker than the other? Or would we need some type of multiplane balancing for this type of problem I am posing you?
@@ist166317 - this is a strange situation where one half of the blade would be thicker than the other half but yes, weight could be removed off the entire length of the thicker blade half remembering that the shorter the radius the less effective that weight removal is.
I recommend the "soft bearing" method of #58 & #59 and not the piezo approach experimented with in #54.
Thanks for your interest in this!
Could it balance a chra of a turbo ? Those balance machines are crazy expensive .... keep up the great videos !
+Vasco R - the short answer is NO. That is very delicate work.
+Vasco R - and the long answer is YES. If we were determined to do it.
Would require 3 channels, 2 planes/stands suspended and free to swing, and a very small belt drive with speed control motor.
Same photocell, same accelerometers (2) and same waveform interpretation.