This 12 Pool Ain't What You Think!! | Is It IMBA Or Do I Suck
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
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It's the little things, like the page turn animation, that add so much.
Not trying to take gasses on any other base or spend their minerals on units really feels like Cheryl got flustered at some point. Almost as if they got thrown off script and then just froze up.Which is fine that happens. But it feels so weird to me to then look at said game and think it's a balance problem.
I think this build more than most induces the wrong responses. It's immediately clear that the zerg attacks are going to build up and become unmanageable because their units are free. This makes the toss feel the need to end it quickly. It's hard to realize in the moment that if you defend well, you'll outpace the zerg for a long time. It's also requires high apm to manage from the first locus wave, which most plat tosses don't have.
Yeah it's true. This build is really hard to respond to. It's hard to know what you should be doing. I think making mass voidrays would've been really solid though and focus on killing overlords.
It's hard for me to consider anything imbalanced once I watch my replay and see how ass I am. For me to seriously stay angry and think that something is imba, I have to avoid the replay like the plague.
10:50 Harstem's impeccable metaphors strike yet again 😂
Ah, yet again a player who should have watched PiGs video about this exact build. Also, one pro tip for nydus hunting for those who don't know, nydus sound is localized. You can pinpoint the sound even through fog of war because the nydus sound is tied to the worm location. That way while the sound is playing, you can move the camera using minimap really fast and use the sound to get an approximation of the location of the nydus.
I didn't know this at all!
Diamond player here; there is a player on my MMR who specifically targets protoss players who does a similar build (he leaves against Terran and Zerg). He does a 12 pool ling rush, expands to three bases on a 2 base economy (the third base is just for larva) while pumping mainly queens, then starts nydus swarm hosting. It is incredibly frustrating as protoss because it feels that the early arsenal of toss is not well equipped to deal with this build; I have gone into fast charge as well as blink stalkers, or tried 2 stargate void rays. I do believe I would be able to beat this guy eventually if I negate the early damage of his 12 pool while getting my nat up, but I haven't see him around recently.
This completely loses to any early 2 base pressure from protoss, I feel like
@Karttibone 2 base pressure from toss is garbage though. Makes it super hard to eventually get a 3rd
If he's on your MMR despite the losses from insta-quitting like 2/3 of his games the problem is probably less his build and more that his PvZ MMR would almost certainly be somewhere in masters.
@@TriangleChloros Possibly; I'm guessing Diamond 1 tho (I'm Dia 2). That said I am kinda blind countering him since it's not a barcode name, so it's probably still my fault with messing up or panicking. I've gone through a new take on the build a few times in my head and decided that denying him vision with his overlords and lings before the first nydus worm is probably the optimal choice here.
Easy way if you go stargate is to target the overlords then nydus. Swarmhost are very slow and useless when they are on cooldown.
Many ways to deal with as captain said.
The XOR joke is fire lol
Couldnt get it, can you explain pls?
@@fixihartmann2793 in technical terms if or is used it's ok if both are true. if xor is used only one can be true (if both are then It wouldn't be ok)
@@fixihartmann2793 It's a logical operator (like AND, OR, NOT, NOR, etc.). Essentially means A or B, but not both. Pretty good joke actually lol
@@fixihartmann2793 Basically in programing or boolean logic, you have these operators such as AND, OR, XOR. So for AND, a and b have to be true. For OR, that means that either a or b is true. If you want a and b to be different, as in you can only pick one, that would be XOR.
So the joke is that since it's not XOR but just OR, he can both suck while it is imbalanced.
Just a statement, not a joke, unless you consider IIODIS to be such peak comedy that everything in it is a joke. Which is fair enough
The "r" pronounciation of "Cheryl" just gave me thrills of enjoyment hearing an anglophone person pronouncing it in the french way. XD
Very interesting episode for me personally because I actually wanted to send in two PvZ games I lost to 1base swarm host hitting about 4:06 into the game. Funnily enough, it was against this same guy, Electryc. Exact same build but he seems to be slower in this match... anyway, I'm convinced he does this build every single game. Spines included, so you can't punish it too early.
I was told void ray opener would beat it, so the second time i knew he was doing it i opened voids and he just sent 3 queens through the nydus too, and my voids couldn't do anything and apparently like 4-5 swarmhost are enough to kill a nexus because locusts have an insane 23.25 dps with no upgrades and live for 18 seconds. Even if they arent attacking the first few seconds, getting 200+ dps for 10 seconds from 8-10 locusts is enough to burn a nexus, or burn a shield battery and then the nexus on the next wave. Felt really oppressive.
you could literally just 4gate this guy...
Yeah I feel you. I never had a fun game against a swarm host nydus player, it's always annoying garbage. As a zerg main, I would be perfectly fine if that piece of shit unit would just be outright removed from the game.
@@Conqueror933what 4 gate build are you playing that hits earlier than 4 minutes? Or do you mean like a proxy four gateway zealot spam thing that hits at like 3 minutes like a total All in? Don't forget he builds three spine crawlers and can wall the top of his ramp with those and transfuse them with Queens, etc. and swarm host can actually be pretty good at defending a position as well, unless you fully mean to attack before he gets any swarmhosts out.
I realize that logically there should be a period where he's vulnerable because he's wasting all these resources into tech - getting a fast lair and getting an infestation pit, but off of a standard protoss opener you can't really punish it.
I once saw (I believe in a vibe video) that as long as you're on the same number of bases of the Zerg you should be safe. But one base void ray rush loses to it also, even if you get the void ray out as fast as possible, unless you have map hack or something, he can just put the one nydus farther away from your void. And if two queens get through, your voidray can't stop it.
It's worth noting I haven't lost a ZvP since I stole his build, but I and my opponents suck immensely. (Diamond level 3500 Protoss, 3200ish Zerg and Terran, but my TvP, PvZ, and ZvT are my best matchups. I wish I could queue them exclusively.)
Even at Masters, I struggle with Swarm host. You need to have insane APM and awareness.
Throw one battery down in each base, that's step one.
Step two, is just try and counter attack with a large attack. Swar host's can't defend.
There are some players who are not so good, they only know how to create chaos, and in chaos it is difficult to make the right decision
This game was really lost quite early. Going for a 3rd nexus when he knew the zerg was on one base lair was probably the worst possible response, but it was his reaction when the first nydus popped up that was the real issue. He took the nydus out after 3 swarm hosts popped, and at that point he could have just run away from the locusts until they despawned, then take out the swarm hosts and the next nydus that was on the way. Instead he tries to focus fire the swarm hosts (that are on cooldown and are a non-threat at that point) and allows the 6 locusts to kill his entire army, resulting in him having nothing left to defend when the 2nd nydus finished and 3 more swarm hosts popped out.
I honestly don't think it *was* lost. Like Harstem said he had a better eco even after he lost his main, he had an air-force that was perfectly capable of putting out nyduses as they sprung up, if at any point he managed to start defending against nyduses effectively he was in a pretty good place to fight back He could even just have built a wide perimeter of photon canons rather than clustering them all near his base and I think he would have been pretty much fine... Honestly I think he would have been fine even if he just grabbed charge and started spamming zealots. Like, even at the end he had 2k minerals and the zerg was on one base, his defence was four queens and some spines. Any kind of vaguely serious attack force could have forced him to pull back SHs to defend, and SHs are *terrible* at defence (so long as they're defending against something that moves faster than a locust, anyway. They might do OK vs pure HT). So as long as you keep pressure on the zerg it's going to be very hard for them to split off forces to continue their harass... Which means the three base protoss can macro up and simply drown the one-base zerg in units.
@@TriangleChloros Photon cannons are terrible vs swarm hosts, they really aren't a good option as the locusts tear them up far too quickly to be useful. He needed a larger air force, but didn't have the gas to do so once he lost his main cause he never built assimilators in his natural or third. Mind you, he had enough minerals that he could have warped in a stack of zealots and just a-moved them across the map, which would have forced the zerg home to defend, but he didn't have the infrastructure to do so, as he only had 2 gates, and he kept losing pylons. Again, I think it comes down to the terrible response to the initial 3 swarm hosts, which resulted in him losing his entire army he had at the time. If he retains those units, the 2nd nydus in his base never finishes, and he's massively ahead.
ah yes the swarm host cheese, ive seen too many protoss bases just melt
hell 8 locusts can destroy a nexus before they die out
Yes nexus itself has more HP than CCs or hatches
Only works on low mmr players. If he knew how to play against swarm host this would have been a easy dub.
TBH a diamond league using wierd cheeses in plat 3 is already a straight equivalent to smurf... Not that much in US server but overwhelmed low rank KR server for ages
It's a good point that using super odd cheeses in a really low rank is a smurf. Never thought of it that way but I agree
he says he built canons everywhere. I look through the game and expect to see at least 10 of these bad boys, only to find out that 1 is the loneliest number...
This guy just needs to play this zerg build - he'll understand fast what weaknesses it has and will be able to counter it
this split screen feature is so cool
8:05 I disagree. There's lurker or muta. And while I suppose swarm hosts or infestors are also technically an option, it's the lowest of likelihoods and SH is dealt with in a very similar way as lurkers. Infestors these days would just be suicide since they don't really do anything.
For that matter even Nydus/drop Baneling or Nydus/drop Hydra would also be gas heavy due to the high initial gas cost of the Nydus Network and Hydralisk/Baneling upgrades.
Diamond at 2612 is definitely a smurf
Theoraticly he might have benmn matched like this or had a bad streak, but it has the feel of a troll smurf build to me for sure.
5:25 ling takes damage from seeing the zealot
TY Harstem. I think your game analysis and blunt feedback is very useful. I've been stuck at Plat for a long time in large part bc I suck too. Trying to suck less.
well for the first attach all he really needed was to make the pylon closer to his nexus. then he could warp in a fast stalker while bringing the stalker back, almost always better to pull just 4 or 5 workers to help fight, this is because they often just get in each others pathing, especially on lower levels. this would also give him more money for another key stalker that could warp in very soon. or perhaps a couple of zealots.
LOL'd at the waifu pillow no friends comment, love it Captain
El editor quiere un ascenso.
havent watched the full video yet, currently at 2:39. Was slightly painful to hear that their response to nydus swarmhost was cannons, sounds like like building roaches into response to marauders, or stalkers without blink in response to several immortals
I love this show but i got to say, never finding anything imba kind of defeats the purpose. And you can always say you should've done this, so you can never find anything imba. If something is extremely easy to beat people your level that's imbalanced. Using those imbalanced tactics people get to higher MMRs than they ever would be.
Big brain request. He figured out the show was a hoax and even when there's an actually imba unit/comp harstem can still pull the strings by saying "the player was an idiot the complaints are invalid" lmao
that being said, ITS A 1 BASE NYDUS SWARM HOST WHEN IS IT EVER IMBA
the form got DECLINCED
it's very hard to win when you don't make units. -sun tzu
To be fair, the game was over when he lost his entire army against 6 locusts...
3 swarmhosts into absolute annihilation.
i know this one, i died the exact same way with 4 void rays, i thought i was fine then he had 3-4 queens with every nydus, and only 6 swarms, it absolutely wreked me, voids cant do shit.
captain gave a wrong suggestion in this video.. you should NEVER fight with locusts.. unless you got storm and a proper army.. 6/8 locusts will tear 3/4 stalkers and 2/3 adepts apart.. just run away.. and accept your defeat..
This Zerg opener is kinda cheesy and hacky, but is it any less cheesy than a cannon rush, or a battery rush?
The only time recently I’ve seen swarm hosts used by pros is by dark and even then he usually loses so yeah they’re imba
As in, they are so bad they are imba?
Finally something else than laddering xd where is rank roulette, who wants to be the grandmasters, all the fun content
"Pictures are universal!"
Oh really? Have you ever heard of "IKEA" and their assembly instructions?
Brutal. Maybe we should start calling you Harsh-tem. LoL Poor Sheryl; I feel bad for her.
Fantastic thumbnail, Hamster. Killing the edits as always
Homeboy wrote war and peace to explain how bad he is at the game. Honestly impressive.
"See point number 1." Excellent.
With harstem's brain, I guess heart surgery IS the more complex one.
Damn, i like the way that Harstem speak some word in spanish as "Nada" XD
That IODIS form was longer than the game. 😉
For someone who hates anime, Im surprised Harstem knows about waifu body pillows lmao
It sounds to me Protoss can still win even after you messed up big time🤣
watching IODIS while drunk is wild llol
Give us the complaint start stamp and sound
Hamster is doing the best editing work on starcraft
I think the central complaint is that protoss has been nerfed to oblivion, and even a generally pretty lame cheese like 1 base swarm host can cause an average protoss player to throw.
Any one-base cheese wins in Platinum... For 2,600 MMR the Protoss didn't even react that bad.
@@MichelMichelMannhe did react bad though. Taking a 3rd when your opponent is on 1 base is definitely a bad reaction. He could have split his void rays to kill the overlord and nydus. He did panic
I love the pvz matchup.
The trade info graphs are backwards.
Platinum NA - They reaalllyy need to adjust the ranked system so this sort of play is bronze
Eh, this really feels like a "you don't have diamond-level decision-making, in plat league? You suck!" kinda episode. I wouldn't fault the average plat for losing this game.
Perhaps, doesnt make it IMBA tho
Are you serious, we're talking about a lot of very low level mistakes here. I would have thought this was a silver-gold game in rank roulette.
@@Llama_charmer If needing significantly higher level skills than your opponent to win doesn't make it imbalanced, what does?
Its a diamond player smurfing
Chasing locusts all game and not getting any damage done?
Horrible play!
The guy went for 3 base against 1 base zerg, cmon...
but if i go 3 hatch before pool im the fool!
This is the classic 1 base swarm host that harstem got hit by once iirc. Didnt know this build still worked, i was doing it on the ladder but people seemed to figure out how to counter it.
Time to break it back out
damn, Harstem always gives the truth in the harshest manor, lol
Maybe we should call him Harshtem in future.
and thats part of the charm of it!
halfway through my thoughts: stoooop stooop hes already deeeheeaad
..My friends love my waifu body pillow.
wait, those are real?? I though that's just an internet meme
@@phileas007 No way friends are real ...
Its "Share-ul", and probably a chick
It's hard to tell without knowing how Cheryl usually plays out his PvZ-games, but this seemed a lot like another player trying to play above his level and looking all the worse as a result. It looked like he was trying to adapt to the developing situation instead of having a plan that hopefully is decent against most things. Never really committing to anything hard enough to get any results. I guess it's hard when you are under constant pressure and most of your games don't play out like it.
Damn Harstem coming for the weebs
It's not IMBA. You just need much higher level knowledge to correctly read the scouting info and respond properly; then, better unit positioning and control. . .
That sounds like traits of a player with much higher MMR. Needing much higher MMR to beat something seems like a good criteria for something being IMBA.
The Zerg appeared to have more game knowledge than the Protoss with the planning & timings of the build. The Protoss was a freaken mess. Learning the basics of SC2 - scouting & build orders - is not "higher level knowledge" 😂Not sure in what reality you think you need higher MMR to beat this, just the basics.
@@hivetech4903 Being able to recognise the implications of larva count while scouting is definitely higher-level knowledge. Higher than Plat 3, anyway. I'm Plat 3 and larva count is not something I understand well enough to be able to react to. I would have reacted to the 12-pool in the same way, by trying to rush out zealots. I would assume that the zerg either has their zerglings out already, or just screwed up their build by building too many drones.
Admittedly though, rushing to 3 bases against an enemy that's obviously cheesing is pretty dumb. That's not something I'd do.
Really shows how low level plat is
my god the protoss was like bronze :D that wasnt imba at all
At platinum level this strategy is imba. The zerg only has one base, make like 12 units and is able to destroy 3 bases, and Harstem even said he didnt make it right, so this could have been more onesided.
It is never imba, you only need to know how to respond in a proper way.
If it would be imba, than it ALWAYS would be imba! That's the Definition of imba.
And btw, harstem gave even one or two hinds how to handle this situation.
Don't get me wrong i dont want to critisis you, it has all to do with game knowlegde and experience. What only comes by making these misstakes and trying out new things. To me every one between bronze and diamant is a noob and even if you are diamont or higher you are still a advanced noob. Don't forget, even experienced pro gamers ( and yes also Harstem) had to learn all these things when they started playing that game.
your comment sounds like "its imba cuz i suck" :/
No such thing as IMBA if players are too lazy to learn the basics, he reacted horribly. Zerg had a plan with better timings so played better. Not IMBA. You are supposed to lose if you are bad enough to take a 3rd against a one base player who is obviously going all-in lol.
Simple. scout 1 base lair and make 3d nexus.... Genius =). just in that case - make + 2 SG and phoenix or oracle for example. haras by 1st 2 adepts .,,,
Bro wrote almost 2 full pages of imba for this game? Yikes... watch the damn replay instead...
This is absolutely imba at anything below pro level and the problem is the nydus. It needs to take longer to build, require hive, and have its extra building armor while emerging removed.
lol, nah.
So today I learned protoss units warp in faster when in range of a base....
Wait this stuff goes all the way to platinum!? I dont even need my fully functioning mouse to beat it, omg.I thinked thats only in bronze or something..
Zerg OP ! Meanwhile Zerg 12 pools and then immediately builds 3 spines xD
dude how much advertising are on your videos? I get them every 2 min. Super annoying.
FYI, I think Cheryl is a female name. So referring to the player as a "him" might have been misgendering.
why @harmstem keep saying Che-ryl like its french? its an american name, its triggering me so bad!