What are the pros to this way versus something like the jester which I find super easy to set up with the totem? Could also be useful to see how to lower in this orientation.
The big pro in this configuration vs the Jester/Joker set ups is this one does not have to be de-rigged/re-rigged for the last man down. The whole system and rope can be retrieved in the same fashion as a Biner Block is. This system is a SRT set up where as the Joker / Jester setup are generally DRT set ups.
A figure 8 device anchor - prob not. The Totem rigging version is a much better setup. I used to use the 8 before I learned the Totem version. I won’t go back to using an 8.
I'd have to see the concept to see what it looks like and how it is set up. I know there has been a lot of attempts at using other devices as blocks/lowering systems and none work as well as the Totem does. The final carabiner in the system is used to close the system off. Without it in the system, there is a slight possibility that the rope could slip off of the neck on the Totem if the rope comes loose. Once that loop comes loose and off, the system could start slipping and coming undone. The carabiner prevents this from happening.
This setup is what’s known as a contingency anchor. We teach this rigging in our beginner technical canyoneering course. It’s a dynamic block allowing for the option of lowering the rope in various situations.
Jared, If tying two ropes together for a long rappel and using this for the block-Would you recommend just keeping this on for the last man down or removing it and doing double strand? Wondering if there’s any problems with the EDK being close to the rapide During a double strand rappel as I have never done it.
Good question. I think it’s gonna be about your personal comfort level on this one. I don’t like the idea of the knot being 1. Pulled apart from both directions of the rope and 2. The knot jamming up against the rapide. In this scenario I’ll usually opt to swap out the totem and put in a carabiner block and stay rappelling single strand to put less stress on the knot.
+Chris Wilcox We have only had to use it to lower a “stuck” rappeller less than a handful of times. We don’t see it happen often, but we’re thankful it was setup the times we did need it. Other times we’ve used it to lower intentionally when doing an assisted lower / rappel from top or setting a rope length on an unknown drop.
Do they make a stainless steel version of the totem ? It would probably last longer than the aluminium. Seems the aluminium version wears out quick looking at the one your demonstrating.
No they don't make it in steel. Steel is deemed to heavy to bother with carrying. The Aluminum ones certainly do wear du to the sand and grit that goes through the ropes. You need to replace them at some point, depending on how often you use them. The Totems I have and use probably get worn through a lot quicker because we use them for demos and classes where we run ropes through them at a lot higher rate than the average Canyoneer would in a season.
Quick question, is the totem contingency similar to the figure right contingency in the fact that it works because of the friction between the rope and the quick link (if you anchor an eight block away from the rapide it will fail)? Just curious whether it works because of rope on rope friction or because of rope between the rapide friction.
The Totem block/contingency anchor works on the friction of the rope going around the Totem, nothing to do with the friction against the quick link. Once you start loosening up the rope on the Totem, the rope may/could start sliding. I have pulled the Totem away from the Quick Link while loaded plenty of times without the rope slipping at all.
Would converting to lower be accomplished by transferring load to anchor via a progress capture (like a biner block) or is there an easier way to just use the figure 8 portion of the totem to lower? Thanks for the video!
No, the beauty of this block is that it is both a block and a lowering system (to mitigate emergencies have a "Contingency" plan). To lower, you would remove the last loop wrap over the small eye and leave the whole device butted against the anchor rapide. This then lowers under control via the Figure 8 portion of the device. No need for re-rig or progress capture device to be added.
My recent video I left a section in there showing how the lower was done in this canyon where we couldn't see the bottom, there had been ice and snow and water in the canyon and we didn't want to throw a ton of rope over. We ended up being a bit short and used the Totem Block to lower the rappeller down with out having to convert to anything else. Check it out here: ruclips.net/video/_OSfltbjp2s/видео.html
The concept can be accomplished, but since the Figure 8 has no Stitch Plate portion attached to it, it is tied up slightly different. The Figure 8 used to be used for this setup before the Totem came about. The block functions much better and easier with the Totem than it does with a Figure 8, but it can be done.
if you have enough rope for a double line rappel for the last person why not just do a double line for everyone. I understand the caveat for goiong into water. Just never understood the single line. My background is as a climber for 40 yrs.
Lots of other variables, rappelling into water is one. The rappel devices used by most canyoneers also twist ropes, so if you are on double strand the ropes end up twisting and if you're not careful when you unhook that twist travels up the rope and can jam ropes preventing retrieval. The issue with using a contingency anchor also offers a safety factor where we can't always see the bottom of the drop so we don't know if the rope lengths reach the bottom, if we run a double strand we could end up with un even ends (which could be mitigated by just marking the middle of the rope and setting that on the anchor, but then you could get a ton of rope on the bottom potentially getting tangled up and stepped on.) I get that climbers double strand off a drop with an ATC, but those are much more straight forward rappels.
Seems like a pain in the neck. For a contingency, and too huge to use as a block. That huge mess of rope and metal is a lot to drag over rocks. More likely to get hung up. Munter with a mule hitch for contingency and a constrictor hitch on a carabiner got a block. Keep it simple.
When I started out Canyoneering I learned and used the MMO as my only type of contingency anchor. We taught it to all of our students for years as well. It was hard for me to change over to using something else for the same simplistic reasons you mention. However, there have been accidents from Canyoneers failing to convert and MMO to a proper block and some have even died (not that you can't die for other reasons in a canyon). I have found this method to actually be the most simplistic in form and function. Yes it is bulky to pull down the cliff and for this reason I evaluate each drop and as the last man down many times I will remove it and go double strand so as not to have this hang up on points. It's all about experience and practice. Thanks for watching and commenting and keeping the discussion going. That's how we all learn from one another.
I agree with the double rope. It’s most fool proof way to recover that I have used. I got this device for Christmas two days ago. I need to take it out to the back patio where I use a large beam to practice with and try some of the many ways it can be used.
@@randomcitizen2384 Nice! Practice! Practice! Practice! When the Totem first came out I was hesitant to try it out and was really intimidated with all that it could do for rigging and rappelling that I stayed away from it for a few years. Then I spent a whole week working with it and learning about it and now that's all I teach for main rigging. It is really intuitive once you get past that initial shock and awe of it and get some practice and repetition so it's ingrained in. For the advanced courses we do still teach the MMO as a back up system in case there is no Totem available.
@@NorthWashOutdoors Alpine butterfly and a crab through the maillon, still a single point as per your 'Totem'..... I would rather have a single 'chunk' of metal hurtling towards the ground near me than that totem and a crab.
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What are the pros to this way versus something like the jester which I find super easy to set up with the totem? Could also be useful to see how to lower in this orientation.
The big pro in this configuration vs the Jester/Joker set ups is this one does not have to be de-rigged/re-rigged for the last man down. The whole system and rope can be retrieved in the same fashion as a Biner Block is. This system is a SRT set up where as the Joker / Jester setup are generally DRT set ups.
Can you post a video of a figure 8 device anchor? Need a refresh. I've only ever used the totem (what you did) or a clove hitch.
A figure 8 device anchor - prob not. The Totem rigging version is a much better setup. I used to use the 8 before I learned the Totem version. I won’t go back to using an 8.
Been toying with an ATS block in a backyard tree, seems pretty secure without the added biner . Any reservations that I should be aware of ?
I'd have to see the concept to see what it looks like and how it is set up. I know there has been a lot of attempts at using other devices as blocks/lowering systems and none work as well as the Totem does. The final carabiner in the system is used to close the system off. Without it in the system, there is a slight possibility that the rope could slip off of the neck on the Totem if the rope comes loose. Once that loop comes loose and off, the system could start slipping and coming undone. The carabiner prevents this from happening.
Just curious, what are the advantages to this set up versus an alpine butterfly with a locking carabiner through it?
This setup is what’s known as a contingency anchor. We teach this rigging in our beginner technical canyoneering course. It’s a dynamic block allowing for the option of lowering the rope in various situations.
Jared, If tying two ropes together for a long rappel and using this for the block-Would you recommend just keeping this on for the last man down or removing it and doing double strand? Wondering if there’s any problems with the EDK being close to the rapide During a double strand rappel as I have never done it.
Good question. I think it’s gonna be about your personal comfort level on this one. I don’t like the idea of the knot being 1. Pulled apart from both directions of the rope and 2. The knot jamming up against the rapide. In this scenario I’ll usually opt to swap out the totem and put in a carabiner block and stay rappelling single strand to put less stress on the knot.
How often do you find yourself actually using your block to lower someone who’s stuck or otherwise unable to get down?
+Chris Wilcox We have only had to use it to lower a “stuck” rappeller less than a handful of times. We don’t see it happen often, but we’re thankful it was setup the times we did need it. Other times we’ve used it to lower intentionally when doing an assisted lower / rappel from top or setting a rope length on an unknown drop.
Do they make a stainless steel version of the totem ? It would probably last longer than the aluminium. Seems the aluminium version wears out quick looking at the one your demonstrating.
No they don't make it in steel. Steel is deemed to heavy to bother with carrying. The Aluminum ones certainly do wear du to the sand and grit that goes through the ropes. You need to replace them at some point, depending on how often you use them. The Totems I have and use probably get worn through a lot quicker because we use them for demos and classes where we run ropes through them at a lot higher rate than the average Canyoneer would in a season.
@@NorthWashOutdoors thanks I bought one anyway !
@@geneo3654 They are well worth the margin of safety they add in for anchor rigging.
Quick question, is the totem contingency similar to the figure right contingency in the fact that it works because of the friction between the rope and the quick link (if you anchor an eight block away from the rapide it will fail)? Just curious whether it works because of rope on rope friction or because of rope between the rapide friction.
The Totem block/contingency anchor works on the friction of the rope going around the Totem, nothing to do with the friction against the quick link. Once you start loosening up the rope on the Totem, the rope may/could start sliding. I have pulled the Totem away from the Quick Link while loaded plenty of times without the rope slipping at all.
Would converting to lower be accomplished by transferring load to anchor via a progress capture (like a biner block) or is there an easier way to just use the figure 8 portion of the totem to lower?
Thanks for the video!
No, the beauty of this block is that it is both a block and a lowering system (to mitigate emergencies have a "Contingency" plan).
To lower, you would remove the last loop wrap over the small eye and leave the whole device butted against the anchor rapide. This then lowers under control via the Figure 8 portion of the device. No need for re-rig or progress capture device to be added.
My recent video I left a section in there showing how the lower was done in this canyon where we couldn't see the bottom, there had been ice and snow and water in the canyon and we didn't want to throw a ton of rope over. We ended up being a bit short and used the Totem Block to lower the rappeller down with out having to convert to anything else. Check it out here: ruclips.net/video/_OSfltbjp2s/видео.html
Can I accomplish the same thing in a figure 8.
The concept can be accomplished, but since the Figure 8 has no Stitch Plate portion attached to it, it is tied up slightly different. The Figure 8 used to be used for this setup before the Totem came about. The block functions much better and easier with the Totem than it does with a Figure 8, but it can be done.
if you have enough rope for a double line rappel for the last person why not just do a double line for everyone. I understand the caveat for goiong into water. Just never understood the single line. My background is as a climber for 40 yrs.
Lots of other variables, rappelling into water is one. The rappel devices used by most canyoneers also twist ropes, so if you are on double strand the ropes end up twisting and if you're not careful when you unhook that twist travels up the rope and can jam ropes preventing retrieval. The issue with using a contingency anchor also offers a safety factor where we can't always see the bottom of the drop so we don't know if the rope lengths reach the bottom, if we run a double strand we could end up with un even ends (which could be mitigated by just marking the middle of the rope and setting that on the anchor, but then you could get a ton of rope on the bottom potentially getting tangled up and stepped on.) I get that climbers double strand off a drop with an ATC, but those are much more straight forward rappels.
Seems like a pain in the neck. For a contingency, and too huge to use as a block. That huge mess of rope and metal is a lot to drag over rocks. More likely to get hung up. Munter with a mule hitch for contingency and a constrictor hitch on a carabiner got a block. Keep it simple.
When I started out Canyoneering I learned and used the MMO as my only type of contingency anchor. We taught it to all of our students for years as well. It was hard for me to change over to using something else for the same simplistic reasons you mention. However, there have been accidents from Canyoneers failing to convert and MMO to a proper block and some have even died (not that you can't die for other reasons in a canyon). I have found this method to actually be the most simplistic in form and function. Yes it is bulky to pull down the cliff and for this reason I evaluate each drop and as the last man down many times I will remove it and go double strand so as not to have this hang up on points. It's all about experience and practice. Thanks for watching and commenting and keeping the discussion going. That's how we all learn from one another.
I agree with the double rope. It’s most fool proof way to recover that I have used. I got this device for Christmas two days ago. I need to take it out to the back patio where I use a large beam to practice with and try some of the many ways it can be used.
@@randomcitizen2384 Nice! Practice! Practice! Practice! When the Totem first came out I was hesitant to try it out and was really intimidated with all that it could do for rigging and rappelling that I stayed away from it for a few years. Then I spent a whole week working with it and learning about it and now that's all I teach for main rigging. It is really intuitive once you get past that initial shock and awe of it and get some practice and repetition so it's ingrained in. For the advanced courses we do still teach the MMO as a back up system in case there is no Totem available.
That is UGLY! What has happened to Simplicity?
It is simple. It’s also a safe option when a potential rescue situation could present itself. What’s is simplicity to you?
@@NorthWashOutdoors Alpine butterfly and a crab through the maillon, still a single point as per your 'Totem'.....
I would rather have a single 'chunk' of metal hurtling towards the ground near me than that totem and a crab.