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as a cis hetero man, ive had that discussion with many partners and friends and the conclusion i came to with myself and my male friends is simply that we had insecurities, and my female partner having sex with other women is just something i cant offer her so theres a lot less risk of feeling insecure, whereas with other male partners theres always a risk of comparing myself. i cant help feeling like theres always a lot of blame and shame on men feeling insecure, in the culture nowadays you always hear talk of 'insecure men' being such a problem, when its really just insecure men that are dicks about it, which shouldnt be blanketly applied to all men. insecurity is normal and ok for everyone, just depends how one acts on it
Spot on. Women took that word and used it against men in order to say that they’re basically not masculine enough. As in their preference is unacceptable, and YOU as a man need to work on it, and accept the woman’s highly promiscuous past. They want their flaws to be an attraction, which sadly for them, never will be.
As a straight guy in a long term monogamous relationship with a bi girlfriend I feel some insecurities if it was another man while i believe a woman can offer things that im physically incapable off and thats why i feel differently about it
Not throwing shade, just wanting to share something that people might not be aware of: A man probably *also* has things to offer that you're incapable of. Maybe not physically, but because of preferences; and from her point of view, that might amount to basically the same thing.
You would probably be better off working those insecurities out, because your value to your partner is most likely a combination of emotional, behavioural and intellectual and thus isn't interchangeable by genital criteria anyway.
@@SonsOfLorgar Sure, it would probably be more healthy to work on ones issues but I'm quite certain that he meant it as a comment on the OPP and not "please review my insecurities". As a cis male with previous relationship to bi women I can for sure relate to the statement and if I use a transactional explanation model it makes sense. On an emotional plane the insecurities wouldn't neccessarily change much depending on partner but according to Dr. Doe's breakdown as well as other discussions with my male friends it does seem that there are specific differences regarding MMF interactions. I find it curious that the same doesn't seem to apply for women (again according to only anecdotal data from friends). Even though I have talked with women that have lots of jelousy toward other women when centered on partner interaction there were still differences regarding ideas on threesome interaction. That seem to indicate that there is also other things influencing the "security" of same sex rivals.
As a hetero man having discussions about this with my partner about this. On the one hand, I find it exciting to see her get wild. But I worry that she would think less of me. Not that I'm insecure about my performance, size, or sexuality. But that she would think less of me for allowing another man to be intimate with her. There is a very famous story where David Spade's girlfriend was hit on by Jack Nicholson. And Nicholson told Spade he was going to do it ahead of time. The girlfriend (Lara Flynn Boyle) was upset with Spade for not being more possessive. She said to Spade, "you didn’t put up a fight." A week later, she was dating Jack. That shows that many women want their man to "own them." This is not me. I, for the most part, don't get jealous. My partner should get what she wants.
I've always taken the view that non-plural policies fall into one of three categories: 1) neither is interested in additional partners, 2) one or both have insecurities about losing their partner, 3) conscious or subconscious instinctual perceptions of reproductive threats. For an example as to the third category: Speaking as a man who has had relationships with women completely incapable of reproducing (uterus removed) as well as women capable of reproducing, I noticed I was more open to considering the idea of sharing my partner with another man if the chance of her becoming pregnant was truly and permanently zero. Similarly: I find myself more okay with the idea of sharing my partner with someone (a transman, transwoman, non-binary, fluid, etc) without testicles, versus someone with testicles; my partner is also more open to the idea of sharing me with a partner that I cannot reproduce with. I've always assumed the phallic/penetration/domination/cuckold reasons still boiled down to reproductive instincts, even if just at a subconscious level for the people giving those reasons. 🤷♂
I find that broadly speaking, men are either more homophobic or less experimental with other men than women. So even the idea of being in the same room, sharing a girl with another man that you don't touch or otherwise interact with makes more men uncomfortable than women in an FFM situation. I have been in two MMFs before. One 8-ish years ago with a coworker and her gay friend, who I chose to experiment a little bit with (but found myself unaroused confirming I'm neither bi/pan), and one with my current and longtime partner, and a friend that was entirely centered around her. I did have fun in both experiences, though I won't find myself experimenting with other men for myself in the future. Sharing my partner with someone else was a lot of fun, and we had a very good time with it. We've been polyamorous for over 5 years, this was simply our first time having a group activity. We plan to do more in the future including a first FFM experience for both of us.
And most men don't need to experiment to find that they think it's yuck 🤢 🤮. That's what women want but they'd need to find a bisexual man to be with and deal with the baggage that comes with it.
In my personal experience and observation, I have found that women are equally as jealous as men, sometimes more so, but sometimes it's not really jealousy, it's just that some people have preconceived notions of what relationships are supposed to be based on what upbringing, society or religion has taught them and they don't dare question those notions for fear they might like it or fear of they peers' reactions. I know married women that have no qualms about being with other women but would divorce their husbands in a heartbeat if they were with another woman or man. By the same token, I know men that are the same way. The "I get to play but don't you even think about it." mentality is where the trouble lies, with men and women. A relationship cannot be open only one way and work unless that's the agreed upon dynamic of the relationship.
I think a lot of people don't take homoromantic relationships seriously. Like "of course you can fuck around with other people who share your gender, I know it doesn't mean anything because I'm the only hetero relationship and therefore the only valid one." I know a lot of people don't think homoromantic relationships are valid. "I just want you to be happy and I'm worried that you won't be happy in this relationship. Plus, don't you want kids? I'd love grandchildren." Said by your liberal but mildly homophobic parents when you come out. Like it's fine as long as it's not my kid because then I'd have to accept that homoromantic love is real and valid and not functionally different from heteroromantic love. I also think that for a lot of men, they specifically don't take sapphic relationships seriously, which is true across time and cultures, too. Gay sex is often criminalized but it's a lot let's common for sapphic sex to be mentioned at all in the law, partly because of beliefs that women didn't have sexual desires in the first place or that they were just not smart enough to feel love the way men do, but also I think it comes a lot from deeply misogynistic beliefs around penetration. The thinking is that penetration is an act of ownership and control and so it makes sense (in this fucked up logic) that the penetration of a wife by her husband is a sign of his ownership of her, but that this ownership can only be unidirectional because a wife cannot penetrate her husband (pretend you don't know fingers can penetrate). So, penetration is inherently feminine and female and womanly. Penetration of a man by another man then would be deeply humiliating because it would make him feminine and womanly and, because women were legally viewed as property owned by men, it would be the ultimate humiliation for a man to be put in the position of a woman. So, then penetration of your wife by another man would be tantamount to theft and therefore unacceptable. Where as women cannot penetrate men and therefore it doesn't matter if a man is having sex with multiple women since it doesn't effect his manliness or his possessions. And a woman also cannot penetrate another woman and therefore your wife sexually engaging with another woman is unthreatening because she can't assert ownership and can't change your status as the husband, you're still in control. So, gay relationships are threatening to society because they undermine the legal and economic structures of ownership. But sapphic relationships inherently cannot effect anyone because who cares if your sofa falls in love with the neighbor's coffee table, you can still do whatever you like with your sofa.
One thing I've noticed that hasn't been mentioned as a reason for a One Penis Policy is babies. Sure, the guys can use a condom, or the woman can be on the pill, those aren't 100% fool-proof. If nether are used, and the lady get's pregnant, then that can open a huge can of worms. Who is the father? Will her partner stick around if it turns out to not be his? Will the other guy step up and be a dad for the kid? And so on and so forth. Now, there are exceptions to this, but this is the broad take on it that I've decided to play devil's advocate for. lol.
Same applies to having two separate hookups in short succession tho. Tho ideally if you're in a more long term relationship the kid could have two dads!
@@KarolaTea This is something that could be hardwired into our biology. Look at all the animals that commit infanticide when there is a change in leadership of a group. It is so that their genes are the ones that get passed on and survive. It isn't unreasonable to think that humans are more or less the same (not killing infants, but the wanting to pass on your genes and not deal with the offspring of a "rival"). Again, this explanation isn't 100%, but just one possibility for the reason of a One Penis Rule.
Could be an explanation. There's also animals who will adopt babies of others, sometimes even other species. Either way, most people don't just have sex to procreate these days, so I think it'd be curious if that was the main cause.
@@lokiodinson2326 Realistically, just that there is a poly community that mostly doesn't care in this way implies it's heavily cultural. Or at very least that culture can overcome any notions otherwise
In our relationship, we’ve come to the conclusion that we don’t want to share or expose ourselves. Whether it’s FFM or MMF, it doesn’t matter. Sex is an intimate experience for us, and both my wife and I feel the same way. It’s not about toxicity; it’s simply a preference and a choice to avoid hurting each other.
This is the problem conservatives have with the person in the vid. They want to shame men into trying gay sex. If they don't want to they just don't want to. Just as how her choice should be respected so should the choices that others make.
4:06 i think you completely missed the mark... im pretty sure he explained that he cant imagine a man arrousing HIM, he did not consider the womens experience but rather what he might gain from it. he did not think about if the women would enjoy it or not
I'm a cishet male in multiple long term ENM relationships, so this topic has come up a lot in my relationships and community. I'm not personally interested in interacting with another penis in the bedroom, so the MMF threesome isn't something I'm likely to participate in, but most ENM relationships aren't constant threesomes and orgies. My own partners are free to have relationships with other people regardless of their gender identity or reproductive parts, or whether I also want to have sex with that person. My previous and current "metas" have included (cis and trans) men, women, and enbies. OPP as a *policy* in ENM circles is considered toxic because it sets out a rule that effectively says sex without a (flesh & blood) penis isn't "real" sex, and that relationships where neither person has a penis can't be a threat to your "real" relationship. If your partner isn't *interested* in sex or relationships with other penii, that's their call. Making it a rule takes away their agency over their own relationships. (Also, OPP becomes a ridiculous policy from a practical standpoint when you realize that her "unthreatening" girlfriend has a whole collection of penises that never get flaccid, have custom features that your stock model doesn't even offer, and come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and colors)
OPP doesn't necessarily means sex without a penis isn't real sex, as much as ENM relationships aren't necessarily threesomes and orgies. Some people just think that they couldn't give what a woman could bring to their partner, and are way less jealous of them than if it was a man. Yes it can be related to sexual norms that could be deconstructed but not necessarily toxic. Other people don't want to deal with STD and STI especially when nearly nobody really protect themselves during sex (oral sex for exemple). Males are way more at risk to give a disease than females fluids.
Dr. Doe, I'm surprised you ignored the elephant in the room. You've always been very good at tackling those head on in the past. The "elephant" being that no one is getting pregnant from gay sex, but are from hetero relations. I'm sure we long since evolved to have men be wary of other men, because they don't want their sperm inside their partner, to create a child they'd then have to raise. But it's just that, instinct. Such things are easily overcome in a practical sense by contraceptives, and then it's about resisting that instinctual urge to deny the other male for men or to bond with the other man for women. Things like that can be overcome and enjoyment can be had by all, but only if it's addressed directly.
First of all,I like the way you talk. That makes me keep listening. On topic: If you can learn it, you can unlearn it. It's all "cultural" and to be fair, it's difficult to abandon what you're used to.
From all three participants equally: Dialog - Expectations - Trust - Limits - Consent! Condoms and a safe word doesn't hurt either. Dr. Doe used to warn us in the olden days.
My mother shared these words with me and they seem to explain a lot here, “The two most fragile things on this planet are the female heart, and the male ego.”
i attempted a 4 some, when the other man would leave the room (taking care of a baby), i functioned normally. when he entered the room again... i found myself being in almost combat mode feeling slight aggression and could not function sexually. I did not have the desire the conquer the two women or fight the man, but my brain definitely could not let me be aroused with him present. shrug
OPP makes me think of when I was in an open relationship at one point with a girl when I was living as a guy before I came out as a woman. It was really easy for me to be encouraging of her being with women, coz she was bi and I knew how repressed and nervous she'd felt about it and I wanted to build her up, but when she had flings with men I felt pretty uneasy. I've worried that there was some toxic OPP aspect there, but in retrospect I think it was more a matter of me feeling really insecure about whether I was performing boyfriend well enough to not lose her if she had a fling with a real guy. I say this because when I came out, I noticed that I felt a lot more relaxed about it: those guys were giving her something I actually couldn't, so they're not a threat to me. Cis women didn't feel like competition either, because I was sexually different from them in a meaningful way too. Turns out life is a lot easier when you can comfortably be yourself. Sidenote: if OPP is gonna make any sense at all, trans men should absolutely be seen as a bigger "threat" than trans women. I mean, most trans people are not a fan of playing the part "expected" of their genitals (a lot of us can't even use them like that) so trans guys stand a much better chance of stealing your girl by fucking in a PIV-type way. Trans women can too, but it'll be in a much more lesbian way probably haha.
I'd definitely put 'performing boyfriend' as probably a big reason for the OPP. Performance in bed is definitely a perform boyfriend element in popular culture. I'm not dating but it does sound like straight dating can be pretty toxic. I don't know if that is true or not, but I'm certainly am not interested enough or eager to find out.
I see things a little differently. Im attracted to femininity, so a three-some with myself and two woman, or myself, a cis woman and a trans woman, or myself with two trans women aren't out of the question for me. But if i had to have a three-some with a woman and a man, it would have to be a twink or a trans man that is twink-ish. If the guy had lots of body hair or built like a bear, I'd be too territorial.
My partner and I are in an ENM relationship. I’m a hetero cis man and she’s a queer cis woman. I’m cool with her being with anyone she wants to be with as long as she’s safe and healthy as a result. However she only actively looks for women because she by-in-large is only into women. I am one of very few men she’s attracted to. However, the few times she’s expressed interest or gone on dates with men it wasn’t a turn on (similar with women who I’m wasn’t attracted to), but when she’s with a woman that I’m also into it is a turn on. The one time she went on a date with a man I was a bit uneasy but I think it had more to do with my worries about her safety since the majority of her experiences with men have been pretty shitty. I’m less worried about her meeting up with a woman who is a stranger. Regardless we take the same precautions, sharing locations regardless of the gender of the person we’re seeing just in case. Thanks for always sharing the nuanced aspects of concepts like this! We can always count on you to be open and understanding to people with different backgrounds.
I'd never thought of the misandry angle and it makes so much sence now. I feel we rarely acknowledge the exclusion men can be faced with in non monogomy. Ive heard the homophobia and jealousy/controlingness before but there is a big sence that being attracted to male bodies is a bit stigmatised as part and parcel of a bunch of psychodramas happening at the same time
As a straight guy, I just don’t find another guy (in any situation) to be arousing. And I would not expect a woman who feels the same about sex with another woman to participate in a threeway. Thanks for keeping up the conversations Dr Doe!
Answer: if the second penis belongs to a man that presents as man, then yes. If the second penis belongs to someone who convincingly presents as female, then the issue of the second penis tends to dissipate. Why, I dunno, but I believe the answer lies in this question: Is sex between a biological male and a transwomen (who convincingly presents as female) still considered homosexual?
@officialLindseyDoe I should have been more clear. I don’t have a problem with women who want multiple partners. I worry that I would have trouble relaxing with another man in the room.
I'm a guy. I was in an open poly relationship with two women for four years, who dated each other and other men and women. I also dated other men and women. The negative feelings that come up of insecurity and low-self worth fade with exposure. I entered that relationship as a rebound from a monogamous relationship where I was cheated on several times by my female partner. However, the context of the relationship also set an expectation when we began it. I already expected my partners to fuck other dudes, so it wasn't a betrayal. I'm currently in a monogamous relationship to a wonderful person, and we are engaged. The context of this relationship is monogamous, that is the expectation and those are the boundaries set. We are talking about opening up to include a third life partner, and we agreed that we both need to be attracted to the individual. The hurdle I am having trouble overcoming is one of children. I want kids, and so do they. But if a male partner we shared knocked them up before I did, it MIGHT change the dynamic of the relationship to favor the other male. So we aren't opening up to a third yet, because I fundamentally disagree with this gut reaction I have. Once I work through my shit, we'll be able to more openly look for a third person(who may be male or female or anything else). Thought I'd add to the data lol
I don’t think I would wanna do that. No matter what combination was available. I don’t need more than one person seeing how bad I am at doing that. A couple of witnesses? Heck no.
I am neither possesive nor homophobic. What I am is a heterosexual male that desires sex and relationships with women exclusively. Calling that "toxic" is beyond offensive.
I have no such policy with my partner (we have sex with other people but only together, not separately), and I don't relate the idea of wanting one. Having said that, I wonder how much of that comes from me being bisexual. If i wasn't bi would I feel the same way?
Being default means people accept norms less critically. Being spicy means you've probably given it more thought. Or at least that you didn't take on board all the same assumptions
@@blarghblargh I don't like the "default" wording, but, otherwise, yeah...once you fall out of one power majority group, you tend to re-evaluate your other aspects
6:10 This has broadly been my experience with OPP. My relationships have all had a Dom/sub element to them, where the thrill of possession and control is part of what the women find attractive. Having multiple female partners into being submissive can create a situation where the women involved are attracted both to each other and to the idea that one man can dominate them all at the same time. There's an admission that such thinking is sexist and misogynistic in its nature, but that's exactly the sort of taboo kink that turns us all on, and it's nice to explore such power dynamics in a safe environment. Inviting another man/penis into the group would, at least for us, spoil the attraction of it by disrupting that dynamic, in much the same way that I imagine forcing anyone to partake of a kink they aren't into would. I've known plenty of people who are into multiple men, though they do seem to be less common. Just in my completely anecdotal experience, it usually involves cuckolding to some extent. And I too miss those Craigslist personals, FOSTA put a huge dent on the BDSM dating scene.
I'm curious to know if woman (in general) also feel this territorialism towards a penis. And by that, also considering other vulvas to be “threatening”
For a while I've been thinking I may not be as monogamous as I previously believed, ideally I think(as a man myself) I would like to be in a relationship with a woman and another man. I've had an equal number of male and female partners but I feel much more comfortable with women in general, the male connection is the one I have trouble with, so maybe it's a desire to have a buffer there? Women being what I know and an comfortable with but men being that thing I've never been able to make work? Having only been in one threesome situation in my life that was MMM but a weird situation from the get go, me being the addition to this couple and just not actually being comfortable with one of them, I didn't end up going through with it. I started finding myself attracted to couples over the last couple years and I do have to say as someone who would like to explore these things, but is also incredibly anxious approaching these situations I find it quite distressing sometimes lol It can be hard to differentiate what it is I actually want versus things that just feel "unfinished" or like a problem i haven't solved yet. Apologies don't mind me, this video just got me feeling introspective 😅
Curious: specifically among the poly population who is comfortable with their partner having an extended intimate relationship (not just sex) with someone of the opposite sex, what is the gender breakdown? My presumption is that men, not women, are more likely to be happy with that.
I hear that some men from the world of the B, D, S and M do seek out and then invite other men to do it with their sub wife, maybe do it together. I feel this would create a situiation where the guy from the host couple has got the full trust of the lady with regard on who he choses to do her. And the guest who they are being extremely friendly to by giving him this gracious offer will have the right to pull out anytime in case something feels off for him. And the host lady gives the host guy the power in exchange for being able to experience the MMF and get her desires fulfilled which the host couple have previously agreed upon. All 3 of them can feel safe that way. If the power dynamic is not clear beforehand between any of the 3, competition might arise between the two guys that would destroy the fun and hurt somebody's feelings. If that's what's intended by one of the hosts but not communicated, then it's ab*se to those who are then in a situation in which they are forced to compete to feel good. Humans are complicated. Maybe there is a way in which we can be more loving like b*nobos instead of more competitive like chimpanzees? Also, the fact that the whole topic has been largely dominated by the health risks involved for all parties for all time with the exception of maybe the last 2 and a half generations does not make this any easier. And when things become too complicated or *rritiating, people tend to tell each other off and send each other to go f*ck themselves. Which they do ;-)
I think that you hit it spot on! I'm an ethically slutty cis pan guy, and I have been up against OPP way too many times. Since I am OK with any gender and orientation who is OK with me, and I am always looing for multi-partner situations, I have had the OPP block playtime a bunch of times. And it is pretty much always the other guy objecting to any additional penises. Most of the women I know who enjoy multi-partner play are fine with bi pan or guys, and actually enjoy seeing some MM play, but too often the other guy is 'no way!'
you are pretty much correct, but an mmf is where at least one male is bi, where mfm is keyed to the females pleasure...and the men are not bi but also not afraid to have contact with one another...the same applies to ffm and fmf...this applies to the swinging lifestyle more that the vanilla(non swinger) people...we have had several mfm sessions in the last couple of years and have only had a couple of minor problems...and we love one another unconditionally, which helps to eliminate jealousy completely...
Wow... I never thought of the "one penis policy"! And it's interesting how that is VERY concussing as a gay man! I would say i'm open the idea of multiple male partners, but i'm also uncomfortable with it. And that discomfort does have more to do with the idea of my partner with another guy of his choosing, rather than my partner with a guy of my choosing. AND there is a discomfort with the idea of a 3rd party of BOTH our choosing, even though that SHOULD mean we both approve. Something about me and mown wants seems to take precedent - something like, there can only be two penis', unless I get to pick the third penis..... Not saying it's right... but it's an interesting introspection....
I see opp and the first thing that came to mind was the song: O.P.P - Naughty by Nature. My best friend growing up gave me a mix tape with that song on it. Geez I’m old 😭
I have the exact opposite reaction that most people apparently do. I just did not find MFF to be engaging at all and at the end I felt like the odd one out.
My ex was WEIRD about this. He knew i was pan, but would FREAK about my interactions with guys in ways I NEVER recieved about women. Even my gay friend wasnt immune feom his irrational jealousy. Toxic af
Regarding the question "is it toxic?" I've found that blanket statements like that are genuinely problematic because of their lack of nuance and how easily they can be manipulated to mean exactly the opposite of what is true. Example: A woman wants to engage in intimate relations with a 🍆 that are not her BF/Husband's. BF/H thinks it bothers him and he doesn't want her to engage in such activities. Is the man toxic for wanting that? If he's being a 🍆 about it, then yeah, possibly. But do you know what else is toxic and most definitely so? *His woman refusing to respect her man's boundaries* (for their relationship) and then lying about it to make him look bad to manipulate the narrative in her favor ("oh he's just jealous/insecure/possessive/whatever" => "that's just proof I _should_ be doing it 😈"). In that situation, I think the woman's actions are much more toxic than the man's. All the man wants is for her to not wound him or his social standing. There's no way that can be the hallmark of "toxic behavior", and we all know a woman wouldn't tolerate being made to look bad in front of her peers so neither should a man. But that viewpoint is not usually brought up, now is it. If there's anything I've found to be consistently "toxic behavior" in interpersonal relationships, it's indifference towards how you, your words or your actions negatively affect others. *_That's_* the pattern that's matters, everything else comes after.
Man bad. Man controlling. Man not think of woman feeling. Woman queen. Woman slay. Woman do what woman want. Welcome to the hypocrisy that is today's society, dude/dudette. Women can be absolute c*&)s and it's cool. If a dude flips the script and does *exactly* what a woman does, he's an utter worthless asshole. I'm seeing it on a daily basis around me. A woman that pushes her man to do what she wants is awesome and assertive and to be admired. Imagine a man pushing a woman to do what she wants. People flip their shit.
Can confirm, many of these things are social constructs. I don't recall if you mentioned, but there's also the conservative ideal that relationships are possessive and 1man 1woman, so women having female partners was erotic and totally unthreatening. I grew up in a high-demand Christian religion, in the 90s when all of american popculture was also pretty homophobic. The 3-letter G and F words were used liberally. Even having another man in your personal space was frowned upon and kindof became ingrained in my identity. Perhaps also tied up in that was the cultural message that guys are horndogs, women are innocent, and women need to be protected from men. "other penises" felt like some kind of violation. to the woman, and to the ideal that partners "belong to each other". Honestly I think this applies to both men and women in mormon culture. since they're taught to think there is ownership of their partner then sex with a 3rd party feels like some deep betrayal.
This was interesting to me because I think it illustrates how our sexual interests and preferences can change over time with experience and maturity. When I (cisgender male) was younger, I wouldn't have considered this. I did get a lot of satisfaction (and perhaps an ego boost) from pleasing my partners. After my divorce, however, in which my wife admitted having several affairs, I found myself fantasizing about "double-teaming" my (now) ex-wife with another male. However, I never would have considered having any sexual contact with the other male in this situation. Now that I am even older, I might even consider that, but maybe that is because this is still all a fantasy for me, as I have never done such a thing in real life. Still curious, though!
There is no shame in trying things out and finding out that you do or don't like it. Life's short, might as well give it a shot. As long as you're being honest and as long as you're not being a jerk about it to the other person. Probably easier and less complicated to give it a dry run with videos on websites first tho.
Been having a lot of discussion about this in my relationship lately. But we find it is quite the opposite. Inviting vagina has been much more threatening and problematic to the relationship
01:37 🤦🏽♀️ sooo please do explain to me how an “established _heterosexual_ couple” seeking a Unicorn would, by the very nature of definitions, include at least one Bi, or Pan-sexual partner, but still be called a “heterosexual” couple.” To be a “HETEROSEXUAL” couple, both partners need to in fact be *HETEROSEXUAL*. I mean WTF? This is 2024! You’re telling me that because two people in a relationship have a penis and a vagina then that overrules anything else like gender identity and sexual orientation?! 1980 is calling and they want their stupidly simplistic black & white textbook definitions of human sexuality back. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏾♀️
Dr. Doe, it seems your attitudes toward polyamory and open relationships have evolved substantially since you first started making videos. For the better! Thank you for staying curious
I actually believe its more about who is responsible for procreation and the man's investment in raising a child (culture prior to birth control). Antiquated social norms dictate that as the family breadwinner a man is raised to not want to pay for, or work to raise another man's child. Thus males are raised to also think that the male body is unattractive and 'unseemly.'
Might the tendency of men to object to a second man in a tryst be even more basic than the explanations mentioned here? As in, an alligator-brain-level regulator on reproduction, and the instinct to ensure that the offspring for which one is responsible are actually one’s own? Is that concern a social construct or a deep, subconscious instinct? Both? Might a man with less desire to have children be more likely to overcome that instinct and try an MMF?
I think it's as simple as the same objection.I would have if my partner were not bisexual. Beyond the monochromist , relationship should at least aspire to be total lateral. This means of necessity of that a new person coming in has to be at least there.Radically compatible with fun parties.
I feel there is a distinction between the "One Penis Policy" applied in threesomes & in polyamory. Basically, a man could be okay with his female partner having relationships with other men while not wanting to have a threesome. That being said, a lot of the same factors probably affect both.
How is this policy homophobic? I'm straight, my gf is bi and none of us is into cucking. Therefore the third person is a woman and not a man. It is as simple as that. This is to complicated for me. Why can't I just have a regular relationship nowadays? Every woman I was in a relationship with wanted a second woman in the mix. They all wanted a unicorn, but always wanted me to find her. And as soon as I did, it was fun for a while but everything crumbles because one of them gets jealous and once again I'm supposed to fix it. It never works. Everyone is too insecure. Just don't do it! Threesomes aren't worth the trouble. Especially if the other two don't really do something. With others I realised, they can play home with three or five people, but as soon as someone gets pregnant everything crashes down. It was always a mess. I stay monogamous. It's work, yes, but one person is easier to handle than a forced upon harem.
I have internalized a lot of this stuff subconsciously. Consciously I don't agree with any of it. Gender is a social construct and individual interactions are going to be different regardless of gender or body parts. But internally, A girl getting it on with another girl is: hot, her getting something from someone else I cant provide, opens up the possibility of a larger sexual pool or voyeurism. Whereas a girl getting it on with another dude is: less hot, her getting something I should be providing in the relationship, taking away sex that I cant be involved in (although voyeurisms is still on the table). On another note A MMF threesome is much harder to sell if the men are expected to interact with each other, if it is sold as two men sharing a woman, most men will find that more palatable. Like a group bonding exercise or sharing a meal. since interacting with another man sexually is seen as bad for many social, pychological, and emotional reasons.
I used to have, and still kinda do, a policy like this as default but open to discussion. But my reasoning is that if she wants to be with a man, I'm here and available, but no matter what i do, i cant be a woman and if thats something she wants. I cant provide that kind of experience for her. Sure i would love to be involved, but i dont need to be.
6:38 I believe my hypothetical relationship would be threatened by any breach of monogamy. Full stop. I want only one partner who wants only one partner. If they are enough for me, the feeling should be mutual. For obvious reasons, the 'threat' of another is related more to space than time. A third-party physical incursion into a space of sexual intimacy could see your partner take favour with the other. Although time will ultimately claim all of our lives, it can also allow for recalibration or _reaffirmation_ of desire.
I could share a woman I didn't care about with another man or men, but not a woman I cared about. I can't change that about myself, and I'm not ashamed by it, no matter what anyone thinks it implies. It's just how I'm made psychologically and emotionally and I accept it. I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman who wants more than one man, or a man who is willing to share a woman he loves, I just can't do it. I'm sorry but FFM is the only way I could role. Just me.
No mention of evolutionary explanations as to why men would prefer to have sex with multiple female partners (reproduce at low cost to him/the sole cost of the woman) and the presence of another man in the relationship undermines who the "parent is" maybe? Also women wanting a single man in the relationship so the man stays and takes reasonability for the offspring. I find this useful to understand where the "homophobic" or other psychologically explanations may actually be coming from, a deep rooted evolutionary driven behavior.
I love the old OPP from that old song. Lol. I love it when my partner brings her bfs or gfs home. Just as much as she likes when I bring my friends home. Even more fun when we get both our friends over. I understand the fear of a guy being a threat. I've watched a guy pick up one of my gfs at a bar. I'm not good with lines so I always lose in the flirt game, but my partners know me and it wins over the threat every time. I love watching the man's look on his face when she'll dance with him and go home with me instead of him. Though when a girl dances with me or my partner, it usually just leads to a bigger party at the after party. Lol.
It's weird, indeed. I know several girls who had threesomes with two guys. In most cases, one of the guy is the boyfriend or someone they have sex regularly with. It doesn't always end up well for the relationship tho, as there was often some lying from the boyfriend/FWB part in order to get the situation to happen.
I would only feel comfortable in a MMF scenario where the other M is a friend and also straight. I'm a straigh guy so no sord crossing. Most of my male friends are way too worried about their own size and being compared. Many would be completely uncomfortable with another guy in the room. Most guys are insecure.
Writing about a thing her that made me nervous. Im a single man in my 50s. My childhood made closiness very hard, still is. But 2 years ago i got something that looks like Peyronies Diesase, weird bend dic. and it hurts. I mentioned it to my doctor and he said "easy fix" and wanted a specialist to see me. Now i got a letter from a Urologist Surgeon, a female one. And now i got nervous, a Surgeon on my dic.. and i allready have issue/trauma if people get to close, Do any know how scary it is just when people want a hug and now this. But i have to.
I think there's another aspect to this which is more social than sexual, a lot of the ways that guys interact with each other is 100% in constant competition. Lota of those guys are just not interested in having a second guy (whether they were the first partner or not) and start competing for attention or time or whatever with their partner. This is something I hate in my male / male friendships as well as relationships and I"m someone who is poly, and not 100% heteronormative either! I just find male competition exhausting. I dont think this can be reduced completely to "penis icky" or "woman property" although those do intertwine.
My reasoning tells me everything should be okay. But every neuron in my brain is hardwired to fire with !!danger!! if I even imagine a guy doing it with my partner.
I get the not understanding why your partner would want to be with a man. I find us gross. I’m thankful my girlfriend does as I’m a beneficiary of that. But it makes no sense to me.
Dr. Doe - I simply would not find necessary (functional) arousal if there was another man involved within our thruple's intimacies. Hope that is a cogent sentiment for you to consider.
I don't know if I count as a hetero man, I perceive myself to be... well, me. My first time was in a group with multiple males and females. While I only engaged with one female at that time, I have experimented at times afterwards with other males. In my developed life I'm secure with my attractions towards females, yet have to say this. I support a woman wanting sex with more than one penis. I always thought, much like multiple women being a common male fantasy, having multiple men must be a common female fantasy. It's sound logic. I'm ignoring a lot of nuance but I do wish more people looked at sexuality with my perceptive filter. The free love movement was meant to empower us and spread acceptance. I'm a firm believer in that movement still. If having multiple penior (I wanted to use this word) makes someone you want to be happy, happy? Why wouldn't you want that for them?
Obviously. Why the heck would a guy care about his girl being with another girl?! It’s a girl. Of course he’s not going to want her to be with other dudes.
So men turned off by the thought of other men is inherently homophobic and wrong; it can't be that it's just not their thing and it's perfectly fine to have turn offs as much as turn ons? By that same logic is it wrong if I'm turned off by tattoos, piercings, or short hair, or certain personality traits? Love ya Lindsey but if I'm understanding your position correctly but I think this is a bad take.
"Not their thing" is something that should be examined and not something that should be taken at a face value. Why is it not their thing? What's stopping it from being their thing? People throw out "not my thing" super quick on things they have prejudices about.
@@alexisvulfiaawenfern8112 I not only watched the video but I watched some parts twice. Given the overall tone of the video the part you reference comes across like an afterthought at best; there was all sorts of discussion of how and why it could be bad and toxic but none why it could be right.
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Hello Linday Doe. Have you watched porn or masturbated before ? If yes, which type porn do you like ?
I saw 'OPP' and immediately thought "Yeah! Fuck the Ontario Provincial Police!"
The more usually meaning is "Other People's Pussy." It took me decades to figure out that that's what Naughty by Nature meant.
You and I both.
I went straight to "you down with OPP? yeah, you know me"
"Other People's Property" aka "O.P.P." -Naughty By Nature
@@TribalGuitars Yeah, "property", that's the word ;)
as a cis hetero man, ive had that discussion with many partners and friends and the conclusion i came to with myself and my male friends is simply that we had insecurities, and my female partner having sex with other women is just something i cant offer her so theres a lot less risk of feeling insecure, whereas with other male partners theres always a risk of comparing myself. i cant help feeling like theres always a lot of blame and shame on men feeling insecure, in the culture nowadays you always hear talk of 'insecure men' being such a problem, when its really just insecure men that are dicks about it, which shouldnt be blanketly applied to all men. insecurity is normal and ok for everyone, just depends how one acts on it
You wrote exactly what I thought and better
Enlightening. Thank you
Spot on. Women took that word and used it against men in order to say that they’re basically not masculine enough. As in their preference is unacceptable, and YOU as a man need to work on it, and accept the woman’s highly promiscuous past. They want their flaws to be an attraction, which sadly for them, never will be.
Cis 😅😅😅😅
@@tcb5141Yes, cis.
Not to be confused with OOP, which means Object Oriented Programming and is basically a Zero Getting laid Policy.
Hey! I'm a software developer who uses OOP all the time, and I resent... how accurate that is.
Programming is no longer reserved for weirdos like me, you know.
(And I kinda regret that.)
Most classy comment.
you obvs didn't do COSC at my uni...
@@quintrankid8045 Thank you !
There are also women who feel outnumbered in a MMF scenario. Yet an MFF scenario they feel more likely to have a safe ally.
I remember when "double entry" was a bookkeeping term.
As a straight guy in a long term monogamous relationship with a bi girlfriend
I feel some insecurities if it was another man while i believe a woman can offer things that im physically incapable off and thats why i feel differently about it
Not throwing shade, just wanting to share something that people might not be aware of:
A man probably *also* has things to offer that you're incapable of.
Maybe not physically, but because of preferences; and from her point of view, that might amount to basically the same thing.
You would probably be better off working those insecurities out, because your value to your partner is most likely a combination of emotional, behavioural and intellectual and thus isn't interchangeable by genital criteria anyway.
@@SonsOfLorgar Sure, it would probably be more healthy to work on ones issues but I'm quite certain that he meant it as a comment on the OPP and not "please review my insecurities". As a cis male with previous relationship to bi women I can for sure relate to the statement and if I use a transactional explanation model it makes sense. On an emotional plane the insecurities wouldn't neccessarily change much depending on partner but according to Dr. Doe's breakdown as well as other discussions with my male friends it does seem that there are specific differences regarding MMF interactions.
I find it curious that the same doesn't seem to apply for women (again according to only anecdotal data from friends). Even though I have talked with women that have lots of jelousy toward other women when centered on partner interaction there were still differences regarding ideas on threesome interaction. That seem to indicate that there is also other things influencing the "security" of same sex rivals.
@@TheChibidono No one cares.
@@thysonsacclaim Well, apparently you cared enough to comment on a two-month old comment that didn't involve you so...
As a hetero man having discussions about this with my partner about this. On the one hand, I find it exciting to see her get wild. But I worry that she would think less of me. Not that I'm insecure about my performance, size, or sexuality. But that she would think less of me for allowing another man to be intimate with her. There is a very famous story where David Spade's girlfriend was hit on by Jack Nicholson. And Nicholson told Spade he was going to do it ahead of time. The girlfriend (Lara Flynn Boyle) was upset with Spade for not being more possessive. She said to Spade, "you didn’t put up a fight." A week later, she was dating Jack. That shows that many women want their man to "own them." This is not me. I, for the most part, don't get jealous. My partner should get what she wants.
Thanks!
I've always taken the view that non-plural policies fall into one of three categories: 1) neither is interested in additional partners, 2) one or both have insecurities about losing their partner, 3) conscious or subconscious instinctual perceptions of reproductive threats. For an example as to the third category: Speaking as a man who has had relationships with women completely incapable of reproducing (uterus removed) as well as women capable of reproducing, I noticed I was more open to considering the idea of sharing my partner with another man if the chance of her becoming pregnant was truly and permanently zero. Similarly: I find myself more okay with the idea of sharing my partner with someone (a transman, transwoman, non-binary, fluid, etc) without testicles, versus someone with testicles; my partner is also more open to the idea of sharing me with a partner that I cannot reproduce with. I've always assumed the phallic/penetration/domination/cuckold reasons still boiled down to reproductive instincts, even if just at a subconscious level for the people giving those reasons. 🤷♂
I find that broadly speaking, men are either more homophobic or less experimental with other men than women. So even the idea of being in the same room, sharing a girl with another man that you don't touch or otherwise interact with makes more men uncomfortable than women in an FFM situation.
I have been in two MMFs before. One 8-ish years ago with a coworker and her gay friend, who I chose to experiment a little bit with (but found myself unaroused confirming I'm neither bi/pan), and one with my current and longtime partner, and a friend that was entirely centered around her.
I did have fun in both experiences, though I won't find myself experimenting with other men for myself in the future. Sharing my partner with someone else was a lot of fun, and we had a very good time with it. We've been polyamorous for over 5 years, this was simply our first time having a group activity. We plan to do more in the future including a first FFM experience for both of us.
And most men don't need to experiment to find that they think it's yuck 🤢 🤮. That's what women want but they'd need to find a bisexual man to be with and deal with the baggage that comes with it.
In my personal experience and observation, I have found that women are equally as jealous as men, sometimes more so, but sometimes it's not really jealousy, it's just that some people have preconceived notions of what relationships are supposed to be based on what upbringing, society or religion has taught them and they don't dare question those notions for fear they might like it or fear of they peers' reactions. I know married women that have no qualms about being with other women but would divorce their husbands in a heartbeat if they were with another woman or man. By the same token, I know men that are the same way. The "I get to play but don't you even think about it." mentality is where the trouble lies, with men and women. A relationship cannot be open only one way and work unless that's the agreed upon dynamic of the relationship.
I think a lot of people don't take homoromantic relationships seriously. Like "of course you can fuck around with other people who share your gender, I know it doesn't mean anything because I'm the only hetero relationship and therefore the only valid one." I know a lot of people don't think homoromantic relationships are valid. "I just want you to be happy and I'm worried that you won't be happy in this relationship. Plus, don't you want kids? I'd love grandchildren." Said by your liberal but mildly homophobic parents when you come out. Like it's fine as long as it's not my kid because then I'd have to accept that homoromantic love is real and valid and not functionally different from heteroromantic love.
I also think that for a lot of men, they specifically don't take sapphic relationships seriously, which is true across time and cultures, too. Gay sex is often criminalized but it's a lot let's common for sapphic sex to be mentioned at all in the law, partly because of beliefs that women didn't have sexual desires in the first place or that they were just not smart enough to feel love the way men do, but also I think it comes a lot from deeply misogynistic beliefs around penetration. The thinking is that penetration is an act of ownership and control and so it makes sense (in this fucked up logic) that the penetration of a wife by her husband is a sign of his ownership of her, but that this ownership can only be unidirectional because a wife cannot penetrate her husband (pretend you don't know fingers can penetrate). So, penetration is inherently feminine and female and womanly. Penetration of a man by another man then would be deeply humiliating because it would make him feminine and womanly and, because women were legally viewed as property owned by men, it would be the ultimate humiliation for a man to be put in the position of a woman. So, then penetration of your wife by another man would be tantamount to theft and therefore unacceptable. Where as women cannot penetrate men and therefore it doesn't matter if a man is having sex with multiple women since it doesn't effect his manliness or his possessions. And a woman also cannot penetrate another woman and therefore your wife sexually engaging with another woman is unthreatening because she can't assert ownership and can't change your status as the husband, you're still in control. So, gay relationships are threatening to society because they undermine the legal and economic structures of ownership. But sapphic relationships inherently cannot effect anyone because who cares if your sofa falls in love with the neighbor's coffee table, you can still do whatever you like with your sofa.
One thing I've noticed that hasn't been mentioned as a reason for a One Penis Policy is babies. Sure, the guys can use a condom, or the woman can be on the pill, those aren't 100% fool-proof. If nether are used, and the lady get's pregnant, then that can open a huge can of worms. Who is the father? Will her partner stick around if it turns out to not be his? Will the other guy step up and be a dad for the kid? And so on and so forth. Now, there are exceptions to this, but this is the broad take on it that I've decided to play devil's advocate for. lol.
Same applies to having two separate hookups in short succession tho. Tho ideally if you're in a more long term relationship the kid could have two dads!
@@KarolaTea This is something that could be hardwired into our biology. Look at all the animals that commit infanticide when there is a change in leadership of a group. It is so that their genes are the ones that get passed on and survive. It isn't unreasonable to think that humans are more or less the same (not killing infants, but the wanting to pass on your genes and not deal with the offspring of a "rival"). Again, this explanation isn't 100%, but just one possibility for the reason of a One Penis Rule.
Even in that case you then need to know and explain that reasoning. Also that would just rule out piv sex not sex or a relationship in general.
Could be an explanation. There's also animals who will adopt babies of others, sometimes even other species.
Either way, most people don't just have sex to procreate these days, so I think it'd be curious if that was the main cause.
@@lokiodinson2326 Realistically, just that there is a poly community that mostly doesn't care in this way implies it's heavily cultural.
Or at very least that culture can overcome any notions otherwise
In our relationship, we’ve come to the conclusion that we don’t want to share or expose ourselves. Whether it’s FFM or MMF, it doesn’t matter. Sex is an intimate experience for us, and both my wife and I feel the same way. It’s not about toxicity; it’s simply a preference and a choice to avoid hurting each other.
This is the problem conservatives have with the person in the vid. They want to shame men into trying gay sex. If they don't want to they just don't want to. Just as how her choice should be respected so should the choices that others make.
The misuse of the word 'problematic' is quite... problematic.
4:06 i think you completely missed the mark... im pretty sure he explained that he cant imagine a man arrousing HIM, he did not consider the womens experience but rather what he might gain from it.
he did not think about if the women would enjoy it or not
I was in a MMF recently. The problem was trying to give equal access to each partner, but I gave it the ol' college try, I tell you what!
I'm a cishet male in multiple long term ENM relationships, so this topic has come up a lot in my relationships and community. I'm not personally interested in interacting with another penis in the bedroom, so the MMF threesome isn't something I'm likely to participate in, but most ENM relationships aren't constant threesomes and orgies. My own partners are free to have relationships with other people regardless of their gender identity or reproductive parts, or whether I also want to have sex with that person. My previous and current "metas" have included (cis and trans) men, women, and enbies.
OPP as a *policy* in ENM circles is considered toxic because it sets out a rule that effectively says sex without a (flesh & blood) penis isn't "real" sex, and that relationships where neither person has a penis can't be a threat to your "real" relationship. If your partner isn't *interested* in sex or relationships with other penii, that's their call. Making it a rule takes away their agency over their own relationships.
(Also, OPP becomes a ridiculous policy from a practical standpoint when you realize that her "unthreatening" girlfriend has a whole collection of penises that never get flaccid, have custom features that your stock model doesn't even offer, and come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and colors)
OPP doesn't necessarily means sex without a penis isn't real sex, as much as ENM relationships aren't necessarily threesomes and orgies.
Some people just think that they couldn't give what a woman could bring to their partner, and are way less jealous of them than if it was a man. Yes it can be related to sexual norms that could be deconstructed but not necessarily toxic.
Other people don't want to deal with STD and STI especially when nearly nobody really protect themselves during sex (oral sex for exemple). Males are way more at risk to give a disease than females fluids.
For the couple you talked about towards the end, if she isnt interested in seeing any men, whats the need for the policy?
Totally changes the meaning of song “OPP” by Naughty By Nature. But with a name like that….hey wait a minute!!!!
Damn it you've ruined the song for me! 😡
Dr. Doe, I'm surprised you ignored the elephant in the room. You've always been very good at tackling those head on in the past. The "elephant" being that no one is getting pregnant from gay sex, but are from hetero relations. I'm sure we long since evolved to have men be wary of other men, because they don't want their sperm inside their partner, to create a child they'd then have to raise. But it's just that, instinct. Such things are easily overcome in a practical sense by contraceptives, and then it's about resisting that instinctual urge to deny the other male for men or to bond with the other man for women.
Things like that can be overcome and enjoyment can be had by all, but only if it's addressed directly.
First of all,I like the way you talk. That makes me keep listening. On topic: If you can learn it, you can unlearn it. It's all "cultural" and to be fair, it's difficult to abandon what you're used to.
From all three participants equally: Dialog - Expectations - Trust - Limits - Consent! Condoms and a safe word doesn't hurt either. Dr. Doe used to warn us in the olden days.
My mother shared these words with me and they seem to explain a lot here, “The two most fragile things on this planet are the female heart, and the male ego.”
I miss the sound of the whip at the start of your videos 🤣
Is this why I see a lot of smut stories with a Devil's Threesome? We don't get to experiment with that fantasy so we write it a lot 🤣🤣🤣
Taboo things are often times automatically hotter.
Made another contribution to the cause. Glad to see you posting again :-)
i attempted a 4 some, when the other man would leave the room (taking care of a baby), i functioned normally. when he entered the room again... i found myself being in almost combat mode feeling slight aggression and could not function sexually. I did not have the desire the conquer the two women or fight the man, but my brain definitely could not let me be aroused with him present. shrug
You weren't even tempted to suck his lollypop? 😂
That sounds like a slaying the mental dragon story.
Our lizard brain instincts at it's finest.
OPP makes me think of when I was in an open relationship at one point with a girl when I was living as a guy before I came out as a woman. It was really easy for me to be encouraging of her being with women, coz she was bi and I knew how repressed and nervous she'd felt about it and I wanted to build her up, but when she had flings with men I felt pretty uneasy. I've worried that there was some toxic OPP aspect there, but in retrospect I think it was more a matter of me feeling really insecure about whether I was performing boyfriend well enough to not lose her if she had a fling with a real guy. I say this because when I came out, I noticed that I felt a lot more relaxed about it: those guys were giving her something I actually couldn't, so they're not a threat to me. Cis women didn't feel like competition either, because I was sexually different from them in a meaningful way too. Turns out life is a lot easier when you can comfortably be yourself.
Sidenote: if OPP is gonna make any sense at all, trans men should absolutely be seen as a bigger "threat" than trans women. I mean, most trans people are not a fan of playing the part "expected" of their genitals (a lot of us can't even use them like that) so trans guys stand a much better chance of stealing your girl by fucking in a PIV-type way. Trans women can too, but it'll be in a much more lesbian way probably haha.
I'd definitely put 'performing boyfriend' as probably a big reason for the OPP. Performance in bed is definitely a perform boyfriend element in popular culture. I'm not dating but it does sound like straight dating can be pretty toxic. I don't know if that is true or not, but I'm certainly am not interested enough or eager to find out.
Great insight
I see things a little differently. Im attracted to femininity, so a three-some with myself and two woman, or myself, a cis woman and a trans woman, or myself with two trans women aren't out of the question for me. But if i had to have a three-some with a woman and a man, it would have to be a twink or a trans man that is twink-ish. If the guy had lots of body hair or built like a bear, I'd be too territorial.
My partner and I are in an ENM relationship. I’m a hetero cis man and she’s a queer cis woman. I’m cool with her being with anyone she wants to be with as long as she’s safe and healthy as a result. However she only actively looks for women because she by-in-large is only into women. I am one of very few men she’s attracted to. However, the few times she’s expressed interest or gone on dates with men it wasn’t a turn on (similar with women who I’m wasn’t attracted to), but when she’s with a woman that I’m also into it is a turn on. The one time she went on a date with a man I was a bit uneasy but I think it had more to do with my worries about her safety since the majority of her experiences with men have been pretty shitty. I’m less worried about her meeting up with a woman who is a stranger. Regardless we take the same precautions, sharing locations regardless of the gender of the person we’re seeing just in case.
Thanks for always sharing the nuanced aspects of concepts like this! We can always count on you to be open and understanding to people with different backgrounds.
The most basic and primal male desire is to ensure offspring is yours. As sex evolves that original bit of code is still going to be there.
That's not what OPP meant when I was a kid
I'd never thought of the misandry angle and it makes so much sence now. I feel we rarely acknowledge the exclusion men can be faced with in non monogomy. Ive heard the homophobia and jealousy/controlingness before but there is a big sence that being attracted to male bodies is a bit stigmatised as part and parcel of a bunch of psychodramas happening at the same time
As a straight guy, I just don’t find another guy (in any situation) to be arousing. And I would not expect a woman who feels the same about sex with another woman to participate in a threeway. Thanks for keeping up the conversations Dr Doe!
Answer: if the second penis belongs to a man that presents as man, then yes. If the second penis belongs to someone who convincingly presents as female, then the issue of the second penis tends to dissipate.
Why, I dunno, but I believe the answer lies in this question: Is sex between a biological male and a transwomen (who convincingly presents as female) still considered homosexual?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to find an addition to the relationship that both people are attracted to
I have issues because of my upbringing. How selfish would I be to criticize others because of my issues?
@officialLindseyDoe I should have been more clear. I don’t have a problem with women who want multiple partners. I worry that I would have trouble relaxing with another man in the room.
Dr Doe, you are amazing! We love you! :)
I'm a guy. I was in an open poly relationship with two women for four years, who dated each other and other men and women. I also dated other men and women. The negative feelings that come up of insecurity and low-self worth fade with exposure. I entered that relationship as a rebound from a monogamous relationship where I was cheated on several times by my female partner.
However, the context of the relationship also set an expectation when we began it. I already expected my partners to fuck other dudes, so it wasn't a betrayal. I'm currently in a monogamous relationship to a wonderful person, and we are engaged. The context of this relationship is monogamous, that is the expectation and those are the boundaries set. We are talking about opening up to include a third life partner, and we agreed that we both need to be attracted to the individual. The hurdle I am having trouble overcoming is one of children. I want kids, and so do they. But if a male partner we shared knocked them up before I did, it MIGHT change the dynamic of the relationship to favor the other male.
So we aren't opening up to a third yet, because I fundamentally disagree with this gut reaction I have. Once I work through my shit, we'll be able to more openly look for a third person(who may be male or female or anything else).
Thought I'd add to the data lol
I don’t think I would wanna do that. No matter what combination was available. I don’t need more than one person seeing how bad I am at doing that. A couple of witnesses? Heck no.
Doing what exactly? 😂
You seem to think this video is about you. I assure you that it is not
I am neither possesive nor homophobic. What I am is a heterosexual male that desires sex and relationships with women exclusively. Calling that "toxic" is beyond offensive.
I have no such policy with my partner (we have sex with other people but only together, not separately), and I don't relate the idea of wanting one. Having said that, I wonder how much of that comes from me being bisexual. If i wasn't bi would I feel the same way?
Being default means people accept norms less critically. Being spicy means you've probably given it more thought. Or at least that you didn't take on board all the same assumptions
@@blarghblargh I don't like the "default" wording, but, otherwise, yeah...once you fall out of one power majority group, you tend to re-evaluate your other aspects
6:10 This has broadly been my experience with OPP. My relationships have all had a Dom/sub element to them, where the thrill of possession and control is part of what the women find attractive. Having multiple female partners into being submissive can create a situation where the women involved are attracted both to each other and to the idea that one man can dominate them all at the same time. There's an admission that such thinking is sexist and misogynistic in its nature, but that's exactly the sort of taboo kink that turns us all on, and it's nice to explore such power dynamics in a safe environment. Inviting another man/penis into the group would, at least for us, spoil the attraction of it by disrupting that dynamic, in much the same way that I imagine forcing anyone to partake of a kink they aren't into would.
I've known plenty of people who are into multiple men, though they do seem to be less common. Just in my completely anecdotal experience, it usually involves cuckolding to some extent. And I too miss those Craigslist personals, FOSTA put a huge dent on the BDSM dating scene.
I'm curious to know if woman (in general) also feel this territorialism towards a penis. And by that, also considering other vulvas to be “threatening”
For a while I've been thinking I may not be as monogamous as I previously believed, ideally I think(as a man myself) I would like to be in a relationship with a woman and another man. I've had an equal number of male and female partners but I feel much more comfortable with women in general, the male connection is the one I have trouble with, so maybe it's a desire to have a buffer there? Women being what I know and an comfortable with but men being that thing I've never been able to make work?
Having only been in one threesome situation in my life that was MMM but a weird situation from the get go, me being the addition to this couple and just not actually being comfortable with one of them, I didn't end up going through with it.
I started finding myself attracted to couples over the last couple years and I do have to say as someone who would like to explore these things, but is also incredibly anxious approaching these situations I find it quite distressing sometimes lol
It can be hard to differentiate what it is I actually want versus things that just feel "unfinished" or like a problem i haven't solved yet.
Apologies don't mind me, this video just got me feeling introspective 😅
Curious: specifically among the poly population who is comfortable with their partner having an extended intimate relationship (not just sex) with someone of the opposite sex, what is the gender breakdown?
My presumption is that men, not women, are more likely to be happy with that.
I think OPP is silly honestly. In an FFM setup there's only 1 rod and 3 people to please, vs MMF where there are 2 rods to 3 people. Do the math.
One of the rods is masturbating.
I hear that some men from the world of the B, D, S and M do seek out and then invite other men to do it with their sub wife, maybe do it together. I feel this would create a situiation where the guy from the host couple has got the full trust of the lady with regard on who he choses to do her. And the guest who they are being extremely friendly to by giving him this gracious offer will have the right to pull out anytime in case something feels off for him. And the host lady gives the host guy the power in exchange for being able to experience the MMF and get her desires fulfilled which the host couple have previously agreed upon. All 3 of them can feel safe that way.
If the power dynamic is not clear beforehand between any of the 3, competition might arise between the two guys that would destroy the fun and hurt somebody's feelings. If that's what's intended by one of the hosts but not communicated, then it's ab*se to those who are then in a situation in which they are forced to compete to feel good.
Humans are complicated. Maybe there is a way in which we can be more loving like b*nobos instead of more competitive like chimpanzees?
Also, the fact that the whole topic has been largely dominated by the health risks involved for all parties for all time with the exception of maybe the last 2 and a half generations does not make this any easier. And when things become too complicated or *rritiating, people tend to tell each other off and send each other to go f*ck themselves. Which they do ;-)
I ain't down with opps
I think that you hit it spot on! I'm an ethically slutty cis pan guy, and I have been up against OPP way too many times. Since I am OK with any gender and orientation who is OK with me, and I am always looing for multi-partner situations, I have had the OPP block playtime a bunch of times. And it is pretty much always the other guy objecting to any additional penises. Most of the women I know who enjoy multi-partner play are fine with bi pan or guys, and actually enjoy seeing some MM play, but too often the other guy is 'no way!'
So like I'd be into it. But I'm super conscious about my body and along the toxic thoughts of 'what if she's into him more than she is into me'
I ran a swing club for ove a decade this topic is is not as cut and dryvas so many think it is it is a spectrum of many right answers
you are pretty much correct, but an mmf is where at least one male is bi, where mfm is keyed to the females pleasure...and the men are not bi but also not afraid to have contact with one another...the same applies to ffm and fmf...this applies to the swinging lifestyle more that the vanilla(non swinger) people...we have had several mfm sessions in the last couple of years and have only had a couple of minor problems...and we love one another unconditionally, which helps to eliminate jealousy completely...
Wow... I never thought of the "one penis policy"! And it's interesting how that is VERY concussing as a gay man! I would say i'm open the idea of multiple male partners, but i'm also uncomfortable with it. And that discomfort does have more to do with the idea of my partner with another guy of his choosing, rather than my partner with a guy of my choosing. AND there is a discomfort with the idea of a 3rd party of BOTH our choosing, even though that SHOULD mean we both approve. Something about me and mown wants seems to take precedent - something like, there can only be two penis', unless I get to pick the third penis.....
Not saying it's right... but it's an interesting introspection....
I see opp and the first thing that came to mind was the song: O.P.P - Naughty by Nature. My best friend growing up gave me a mix tape with that song on it. Geez I’m old 😭
I have the exact opposite reaction that most people apparently do. I just did not find MFF to be engaging at all and at the end I felt like the odd one out.
My ex was WEIRD about this. He knew i was pan, but would FREAK about my interactions with guys in ways I NEVER recieved about women. Even my gay friend wasnt immune feom his irrational jealousy.
Toxic af
People are jealous by nature, best stay away from them all together or else be imprisoned by them
Wow... I really love your brain.
Regarding the question "is it toxic?"
I've found that blanket statements like that are genuinely problematic because of their lack of nuance and how easily they can be manipulated to mean exactly the opposite of what is true. Example:
A woman wants to engage in intimate relations with a 🍆 that are not her BF/Husband's. BF/H thinks it bothers him and he doesn't want her to engage in such activities. Is the man toxic for wanting that?
If he's being a 🍆 about it, then yeah, possibly. But do you know what else is toxic and most definitely so? *His woman refusing to respect her man's boundaries* (for their relationship) and then lying about it to make him look bad to manipulate the narrative in her favor ("oh he's just jealous/insecure/possessive/whatever" => "that's just proof I _should_ be doing it 😈").
In that situation, I think the woman's actions are much more toxic than the man's. All the man wants is for her to not wound him or his social standing. There's no way that can be the hallmark of "toxic behavior", and we all know a woman wouldn't tolerate being made to look bad in front of her peers so neither should a man. But that viewpoint is not usually brought up, now is it.
If there's anything I've found to be consistently "toxic behavior" in interpersonal relationships, it's indifference towards how you, your words or your actions negatively affect others. *_That's_* the pattern that's matters, everything else comes after.
Man bad. Man controlling. Man not think of woman feeling.
Woman queen. Woman slay. Woman do what woman want.
Welcome to the hypocrisy that is today's society, dude/dudette. Women can be absolute c*&)s and it's cool. If a dude flips the script and does *exactly* what a woman does, he's an utter worthless asshole. I'm seeing it on a daily basis around me. A woman that pushes her man to do what she wants is awesome and assertive and to be admired. Imagine a man pushing a woman to do what she wants. People flip their shit.
Can confirm, many of these things are social constructs. I don't recall if you mentioned, but there's also the conservative ideal that relationships are possessive and 1man 1woman, so women having female partners was erotic and totally unthreatening.
I grew up in a high-demand Christian religion, in the 90s when all of american popculture was also pretty homophobic. The 3-letter G and F words were used liberally. Even having another man in your personal space was frowned upon and kindof became ingrained in my identity. Perhaps also tied up in that was the cultural message that guys are horndogs, women are innocent, and women need to be protected from men. "other penises" felt like some kind of violation. to the woman, and to the ideal that partners "belong to each other". Honestly I think this applies to both men and women in mormon culture. since they're taught to think there is ownership of their partner then sex with a 3rd party feels like some deep betrayal.
This was interesting to me because I think it illustrates how our sexual interests and preferences can change over time with experience and maturity. When I (cisgender male) was younger, I wouldn't have considered this. I did get a lot of satisfaction (and perhaps an ego boost) from pleasing my partners. After my divorce, however, in which my wife admitted having several affairs, I found myself fantasizing about "double-teaming" my (now) ex-wife with another male. However, I never would have considered having any sexual contact with the other male in this situation. Now that I am even older, I might even consider that, but maybe that is because this is still all a fantasy for me, as I have never done such a thing in real life. Still curious, though!
There is no shame in trying things out and finding out that you do or don't like it. Life's short, might as well give it a shot. As long as you're being honest and as long as you're not being a jerk about it to the other person.
Probably easier and less complicated to give it a dry run with videos on websites first tho.
Been having a lot of discussion about this in my relationship lately.
But we find it is quite the opposite.
Inviting vagina has been much more threatening and problematic to the relationship
I’m so glad I’m gay so I don’t have to deal with all this crap.
You seem to be forgetting bi and trans people exist and they eliminate the simplicity you seem to think you have
@@blarghblargh I’m not talking about bisexuals and trans. I’m talking about me; a homosexual cisgender male. Virtue signal elsewhere.
Optimally nobody needs to... 🤷♂
01:37 🤦🏽♀️ sooo please do explain to me how an “established _heterosexual_ couple” seeking a Unicorn would, by the very nature of definitions, include at least one Bi, or Pan-sexual partner, but still be called a “heterosexual” couple.”
To be a “HETEROSEXUAL” couple, both partners need to in fact be *HETEROSEXUAL*.
I mean WTF? This is 2024! You’re telling me that because two people in a relationship have a penis and a vagina then that overrules anything else like gender identity and sexual orientation?!
1980 is calling and they want their stupidly simplistic black & white textbook definitions of human sexuality back.
🤦🏻♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏾♀️
Dr. Doe, it seems your attitudes toward polyamory and open relationships have evolved substantially since you first started making videos. For the better! Thank you for staying curious
You still exist!!! YAY!!! The RUclips algorithm made you absent for so long I thought you quit RUclips.
I’m sure that after Challengers dropped the amount of people who are down with MFM increased
I actually believe its more about who is responsible for procreation and the man's investment in raising a child (culture prior to birth control). Antiquated social norms dictate that as the family breadwinner a man is raised to not want to pay for, or work to raise another man's child. Thus males are raised to also think that the male body is unattractive and 'unseemly.'
Dragon vs Unicorn? I think as a guy, unicorn makes more sense for all the obvious reasons. My unit hasn't reached dragon status.😂😂😂
And if it spits out fire, consult a urologist
Need that dress! Where'd you get it?!?
Might the tendency of men to object to a second man in a tryst be even more basic than the explanations mentioned here? As in, an alligator-brain-level regulator on reproduction, and the instinct to ensure that the offspring for which one is responsible are actually one’s own? Is that concern a social construct or a deep, subconscious instinct? Both? Might a man with less desire to have children be more likely to overcome that instinct and try an MMF?
I think it's as simple as the same objection.I would have if my partner were not bisexual. Beyond the monochromist , relationship should at least aspire to be total lateral. This means of necessity of that a new person coming in has to be at least there.Radically compatible with fun parties.
I feel there is a distinction between the "One Penis Policy" applied in threesomes & in polyamory. Basically, a man could be okay with his female partner having relationships with other men while not wanting to have a threesome. That being said, a lot of the same factors probably affect both.
Very informative
Are you on WhatsApp Karen?
How is this policy homophobic? I'm straight, my gf is bi and none of us is into cucking. Therefore the third person is a woman and not a man. It is as simple as that.
This is to complicated for me. Why can't I just have a regular relationship nowadays? Every woman I was in a relationship with wanted a second woman in the mix. They all wanted a unicorn, but always wanted me to find her. And as soon as I did, it was fun for a while but everything crumbles because one of them gets jealous and once again I'm supposed to fix it.
It never works. Everyone is too insecure. Just don't do it! Threesomes aren't worth the trouble. Especially if the other two don't really do something.
With others I realised, they can play home with three or five people, but as soon as someone gets pregnant everything crashes down. It was always a mess.
I stay monogamous. It's work, yes, but one person is easier to handle than a forced upon harem.
I have internalized a lot of this stuff subconsciously. Consciously I don't agree with any of it. Gender is a social construct and individual interactions are going to be different regardless of gender or body parts. But internally, A girl getting it on with another girl is: hot, her getting something from someone else I cant provide, opens up the possibility of a larger sexual pool or voyeurism. Whereas a girl getting it on with another dude is: less hot, her getting something I should be providing in the relationship, taking away sex that I cant be involved in (although voyeurisms is still on the table).
On another note A MMF threesome is much harder to sell if the men are expected to interact with each other, if it is sold as two men sharing a woman, most men will find that more palatable. Like a group bonding exercise or sharing a meal. since interacting with another man sexually is seen as bad for many social, pychological, and emotional reasons.
I used to have, and still kinda do, a policy like this as default but open to discussion. But my reasoning is that if she wants to be with a man, I'm here and available, but no matter what i do, i cant be a woman and if thats something she wants. I cant provide that kind of experience for her. Sure i would love to be involved, but i dont need to be.
All the permutations!!! “I’m so confused” - Vinny Barbarino
6:38 I believe my hypothetical relationship would be threatened by any breach of monogamy. Full stop. I want only one partner who wants only one partner. If they are enough for me, the feeling should be mutual. For obvious reasons, the 'threat' of another is related more to space than time. A third-party physical incursion into a space of sexual intimacy could see your partner take favour with the other. Although time will ultimately claim all of our lives, it can also allow for recalibration or _reaffirmation_ of desire.
You seem to think this video is about you. I assure you that it is not
@@blarghblargh You missed the time-stamped part where she asked me for my opinion.
OPP might make any "accidents" easier to attribute lineage.
That policy is phalatious!
Well done! That pun was well planted!
@Thessalin, I'm not familiar with the reference. Can you gif me a clue?
I could share a woman I didn't care about with another man or men, but not a woman I cared about. I can't change that about myself, and I'm not ashamed by it, no matter what anyone thinks it implies. It's just how I'm made psychologically and emotionally and I accept it. I don't think there is anything wrong with a woman who wants more than one man, or a man who is willing to share a woman he loves, I just can't do it. I'm sorry but FFM is the only way I could role. Just me.
No mention of evolutionary explanations as to why men would prefer to have sex with multiple female partners (reproduce at low cost to him/the sole cost of the woman) and the presence of another man in the relationship undermines who the "parent is" maybe? Also women wanting a single man in the relationship so the man stays and takes reasonability for the offspring. I find this useful to understand where the "homophobic" or other psychologically explanations may actually be coming from, a deep rooted evolutionary driven behavior.
I love the old OPP from that old song. Lol. I love it when my partner brings her bfs or gfs home. Just as much as she likes when I bring my friends home. Even more fun when we get both our friends over. I understand the fear of a guy being a threat. I've watched a guy pick up one of my gfs at a bar. I'm not good with lines so I always lose in the flirt game, but my partners know me and it wins over the threat every time. I love watching the man's look on his face when she'll dance with him and go home with me instead of him. Though when a girl dances with me or my partner, it usually just leads to a bigger party at the after party. Lol.
Linsy so much info . How do you do it ??? I have to watch a few times to comprehend .....
It's weird, indeed.
I know several girls who had threesomes with two guys. In most cases, one of the guy is the boyfriend or someone they have sex regularly with. It doesn't always end up well for the relationship tho, as there was often some lying from the boyfriend/FWB part in order to get the situation to happen.
I'm old enough that I thought of the Naughty by Nature song.
I would only feel comfortable in a MMF scenario where the other M is a friend and also straight. I'm a straigh guy so no sord crossing. Most of my male friends are way too worried about their own size and being compared. Many would be completely uncomfortable with another guy in the room. Most guys are insecure.
Writing about a thing her that made me nervous. Im a single man in my 50s. My childhood made closiness very hard, still is. But 2 years ago i got something that looks like Peyronies Diesase, weird bend dic. and it hurts. I mentioned it to my doctor and he said "easy fix" and wanted a specialist to see me.
Now i got a letter from a Urologist Surgeon, a female one. And now i got nervous, a Surgeon on my dic.. and i allready have issue/trauma if people get to close, Do any know how scary it is just when people want a hug and now this. But i have to.
I think there's another aspect to this which is more social than sexual, a lot of the ways that guys interact with each other is 100% in constant competition. Lota of those guys are just not interested in having a second guy (whether they were the first partner or not) and start competing for attention or time or whatever with their partner. This is something I hate in my male / male friendships as well as relationships and I"m someone who is poly, and not 100% heteronormative either! I just find male competition exhausting.
I dont think this can be reduced completely to "penis icky" or "woman property" although those do intertwine.
My reasoning tells me everything should be okay.
But every neuron in my brain is hardwired to fire with !!danger!! if I even imagine a guy doing it with my partner.
How is it toxic if its what she wants also?
As long as those are people that aren't in the direct social group + there is no need to interact with the other male. MFM is doable.
I get the not understanding why your partner would want to be with a man. I find us gross. I’m thankful my girlfriend does as I’m a beneficiary of that. But it makes no sense to me.
Dr. Doe - I simply would not find necessary (functional) arousal if there was another man involved within our thruple's intimacies. Hope that is a cogent sentiment for you to consider.
I don't know if I count as a hetero man, I perceive myself to be... well, me. My first time was in a group with multiple males and females. While I only engaged with one female at that time, I have experimented at times afterwards with other males. In my developed life I'm secure with my attractions towards females, yet have to say this. I support a woman wanting sex with more than one penis. I always thought, much like multiple women being a common male fantasy, having multiple men must be a common female fantasy. It's sound logic. I'm ignoring a lot of nuance but I do wish more people looked at sexuality with my perceptive filter. The free love movement was meant to empower us and spread acceptance. I'm a firm believer in that movement still. If having multiple penior (I wanted to use this word) makes someone you want to be happy, happy? Why wouldn't you want that for them?
I thought OPP meant “only players pass” basically means we sharing our ladies???
Obviously. Why the heck would a guy care about his girl being with another girl?! It’s a girl. Of course he’s not going to want her to be with other dudes.
So men turned off by the thought of other men is inherently homophobic and wrong; it can't be that it's just not their thing and it's perfectly fine to have turn offs as much as turn ons? By that same logic is it wrong if I'm turned off by tattoos, piercings, or short hair, or certain personality traits?
Love ya Lindsey but if I'm understanding your position correctly but I think this is a bad take.
"Not their thing" is something that should be examined and not something that should be taken at a face value. Why is it not their thing? What's stopping it from being their thing? People throw out "not my thing" super quick on things they have prejudices about.
You didn't watch this video
6:13
@@alexisvulfiaawenfern8112 I not only watched the video but I watched some parts twice. Given the overall tone of the video the part you reference comes across like an afterthought at best; there was all sorts of discussion of how and why it could be bad and toxic but none why it could be right.