@@cjones7854 I've had a couple that were stiff straight from the factory, but i move them in and out a few clicks before installing them. That seems to do the trick and prevents them from sticking. I have 3 pair of clampers and all 6 of the brake dials adjust and move smoothly.
@@WordupG i have 4 piston 180s up front 2 piston 160s rear. They are reliably featherable and never need more than 2 fingers to get to max braking power. A noticeable upgrade to the cable TRP spyres I used to use
@@no_Ray_bang Very good combination! I mainly bought them because I already had a good Sram groupset and I didn't want to change it. I was surprised at how good these ended up being.
TRP Spyke's with 180mm rotors and Avid speed dial 7 brake levers .. I just love them ... I love the simplicity and reliability of mechanical disc brakes and not having to hassle with brake oil fluids and special bleeding kits.
9:15 take off your rotor and pads, then pour boiling water then wash it with some dishwashing liquid. Works like magic. Makes your rotors and pads feel like brand new!
The reason for larger brakes on the front of any vehicle is due to the change in traction under braking. When a braking force is applied to a bike or car the momentum continues forward and increases the force applied to the front wheel(s). This increases the available traction which can then be utilized for greater braking. Simultaneously, the weight shift reduces the force on the rear wheel(s) which is why it’s so easy to skid the rear tire(s) compared to the front during braking. For a bikepacking or adventure rigs I always run the same size rotors front and rear in case I have a failure. If that happens, I just use the good setup on the front and brake gingerly, distributing my weight low and rearward.
Good tip for bike packing on having a consistent setup to make swaps and spares easy that way all need to carry is I spare over the same but for the weight weenie at least carry a spare front setup for emergency if you do since it's your best one
@@dperreno I am going to be checking out a few things I have the Tektro brakes that come on a Trek Verve 2. They are nice but I know there's great options that won't break my wallet I am thinking about adding pistons and going to 180s since I will be adding a bafang mid drive and I will have a trailer too. Honestly I want to do a few bikes since they are all I'm going to mess with for a while lol 😆😆
I'm still on V-brakes on my touring hardtail MTB. Maintenance is yeasy peasy. Brake pads are thicker than those in disc brakes so they last longer (I don't often ride when it's raining during the tour because of duly planning). Yes, with long decents on a heavy bike, arm muscles get tired, but I make stops from time to time to enjoy the views around. No noise, no frequent adjustments, lighter weight, lower risk of damaging brakes by bad handling in airports.
I run a set of PAUL linear (vbrakes) in back and a BB7 with a 180 rotor up front. My fork is rigid but new school so I can run the disc up front. The Paul's are very strong and i swear I don't notice that it isn't a disc. KoolStop pads and if you can, like RollinRat suggests...ceramic coated rims. If you can find them anymore, expensive but worthy. Cheers and happy pedaling/pushing!
A tip for bedding in brakes. Rather than feathering the brakes pedal up to full speed and do a hard consistent stop and repeat 10-20 times. This gets the brake pad material to a very high temperature and makes them last a lot longer. I've been riding for 30+ years and i weigh around 210 lbs. I always use Hope E4 brakes and i get around 4000 miles out of a set a pads using this method.
I'd usually recommend following the manufacturers directions for bedding in. Hard stops can leave deposits, and could lead to a bumpy brake. If you take a look at Shimano's recommendations the process is closer to the feathering mentioned here, no complete stops. Get up to speed, brake to walking speed, repeat 10-20 times. Park Tool follows a similar process.
I never understood what the ease of maintanance everyone talks about is based on. My hydros have been untouched for the 2.5 years i own my bike and ride daily. My friends have cable discs and they are way too weak, need constant adjusting to keep up with pad wear and have snapped cables more than once. Mind you, that is in the 4 months that they have their bikes.
One thing some people don't take onto consideration with mechanicals is the difference between pull ratios with different levers and caliper combos. Even ones that are both "short pull" will feel different because of the difference in mechanical advantage. Most people hate old canti brakes but if you set them up right, they can feel great! I have mech that came on my gravel bike (TRP Spyres with SRAM levers) and I'm quite happy with them. My hardtail mtb came with hydros and those feel great but as a mechanic at a shop, I admit I don't enjoy bleeding brakes. Another thing, some people say rim brakes suck but they're using 30 year old pads! Those won't stop you and will eat right through your rim. Get some Kool Stop Salmon or if you want one finger action, get the Grey E-Bike pads. One finger with 90s cantis on an xc trail.
Good thought you put there, I used rim brakes for many years now and don't see the point to switch to disk brakes when on flat terrain. In cities or on medium terrain you won't need all that stopping power with 1 finger, if you needto brake hard... then brake hard, take those hands and damn squeeze em! Also, when bikepacking you can use a multitool to tune your brakes in 2mins and have the same nice ez feeling when braking. (If I'd come to ride downhill I'd choose disk brakes though... no overheating of the rim and so on :D)
I just got a gravel bike with drop bars (my first set of drop bars), and I cannot brake on the hood with the mechanical brakes. I couldn't spend the extra on the hydros but now regret the bike full stop.
I had them before than I switched to the Spyre, easier to fix in the field. HY/RD's where flawless but once you need to dial them in (purge)... argg.. I bumped into a wall... tried and tried but could not get the bite right.
@@_MrSnrub HOlly molly, :) thank you. I had HYRD years ago, than I had to purge the caliper... Could not do it my self even if I tried and tried but still spongy Bob. The mechanical disk brakes do wonders SPYRE etc...
I'm a hydraulic fan. That said there's a gravel bike I'm considering in a color I like but only problem is the mechanical break it comes with. Rather than spend a 1000 bucks on replacing parts for hydraulic will these trp hy/rd satisfy me if I'm doing offroading and need need fast stops on road if a car runs a light?
@@SwyvCrux I had the same situation and went for the mech bike rather than waiting for a suitable hydro (in my case the hydro was too much more for me). I used to have an MTB flat bars with bb7, no issues. Got the gravel bike with mech disc and drop bars and I can't stand it, braking on the hoods is impossible. I really regret not getting hydros.
If and when I ever get myself a gravel/bikepacking rig, I plan on going with Paul Components Klampers. I actually have a pair of PC Cross Stop 2's that I purchased in the mid 90's and they were absolutely awesome, so I know Paul makes great stuff. Steve from Hardtail Party is running a set on his mountain bike and has nothing but praise for them. They're pricey, but being able to stop with the simplicity of mechanical brakes is worth it
I use Shimano MT520 calipers with MT501 levers. They are darn reliable although I modified some things. 1. Pads are Trickstuff resin. These make all the difference. They last longer than the OEMs and the modulation is way better. Rotor is Trickstuff as well, machined stainless steel. 2. I don‘t run the OEM Shimano fluid. I makes the brakes do weird things under cold conditions. The point were they start to grab moves back and forth because the fluid‘s viscosity is too high. I changed to a Putoline fork oil and everything is perfect now 👍🏼
Just upgraded to SRAM Guide R 4 pistons from 2 pistons on my fat bike. Also I went with 180 front and 160 back rotors. Quite a difference, mostly in the ease of braking but also in the confidence in slowing/stopping. Also, I've had good luck "curing" wailing brakes by getting up to speed (20mph+) on a long downhill and slowing down to a stop repeatedly. This seems to burn off the gunk or something. Anyhow, it hasn't failed me yet...
I don't have much experience with disc brakes, but I do have a gravel/touring bike with the hydro-mechanical 4-piston Yokozuna Ultimos, and I think they're great. Very easy to set up and adjust, and they feel and stop so much better than any of the lower-end mechanical disc brakes I've tried from Tektro.
Been riding on Paul Klampers for the past two years. Recommend them hands down. Ease of tool-free adjustability is top notch. They’re expensive but you’re supporting some awesome guys in Oregon being paid an actual living wage.
I use the TRP Spyke/Spyre on my Bikes with 180 or 203 Disc Rotor in the front. I ride all the year in every weather conditions and my experience is, that the mechanic Disc brakes make no problems. If there is noise I can regular the brake pads with a small srew. If you ran hydraulics there is no possibilty to regular the Brake Pads. On oue Travel Tandem I use a hydraulic Disc Brakes with 203mm Disc Rotors front and rear.
Excellent, thorough coverage of a topic I know nothing about (my ride is a 1997 Litespeed Obed, so disc brakes aren't happening!). I do plan to get a new, bikepacking/touring bike, so this was very helpful. Yours is the first video out of dozens I have watched that addresses the issue of front cables and bar bags - NONE of the bar bag reviews and videos ever mention this, which confused me when I bought my first bar bag and thought, "Hmmmm, cables over? Cables under?" (luckily, the bag fit well without crimping the cables).
Good video. Mechanical brakes: I can fix them myself easy peasy. Hydros: a whole weekend every year working on them... I prefer go biking 🙂 and if you take the bike for maintenance... Every brake check cost more than a new set of mechanical brakes calipers 😅
TRP Spyre for me, Need to be dialed every few days (depends on the usage). Less braking power compared to hydraulic (but good enough for bikepacking/touring). But definitely easy on the maintenance, out in the field.
BB7 mechanics - on my mountain e-bike, do their work good For me is important absolute realiability and minimalism in service, with high stopping power for heavy bike (22 kg) Using semi-metallic pads, to ride all year around at any weather (resin is nothing in rain and snow) around the city. Kyiv, having here lots of uphills ans descents in the centre. Maybe, will try sintered ones in future
I use hydraulic front brake and mechanical rear. My main brake is the front and I like the modulation of hydraulic disc brakes. Rear brake is mostly for control and if the front fail to be a backup.
Love my Avid BB7 with speed dial lever on the rear of my XC. Don't even need a front brake on dutch XC trails. My park HT is hydro front & rear as arm pump is a thing..
I’ve used all 3 options. Hayes,full mech: junk,1/10 power Juin Tech R1,mech/hydro: superb value,light,8/10 power Ultegra full hydro: heavy,a faff to service,10/10 power
I’ve used both mechanical and hydro and prefer hydraulic. I’ve toured many thousands of miles on mechanical Shimano calipers with resin pads and they were pretty bad. Pads constantly needed adjusting which is something a hydraulic brake does without you even knowing. Braking power leaves something to be desired with a loaded bike going fast on steep descents. There is essentially no fade though which is a nice plus. I then got a bike with low tier Shimano hydraulics and they were not great. They came with resin pads which had great initial bite but I found they faded super easy where the mechanical discs would not have an issue. On top of this I found that resin pads were usually done for if they got contaminated. I upgraded to Shimano mt 520 with metallic pads and it was a world of difference. Amazing modulation, good power, and no fade. You can really feel metallic pads get more bite as you heat them up on descents. I don’t mind the noise either. Even when cold they offer enough power for my needs. Also metallic pads seem to be much easier to decontaminate as oils don’t seep as deep as resin pads so there is not as much sanding required. I found that even after decontaminating pads several times they still outlasted the rotors. I think with a metallic pad there is not much reason to get a ice tech rotor as the cooling is not really required and they wear out too quick for a metallic pad. I’ll be going with all steel for now on. Really the only pain with hydraulic brakes is maintenance and cost of repair. It’s sometimes messy and the ceramic pistons on Shimano brakes can crack super easy. If they crack your kind of screwed. Gotta be careful about it.
"What is best" depends on where and how far you'd go bike packing. I used to have full hydro brakes on all my bikes, until I crashed and kinked my hose that led to brake problems on the road..had I used a mech, then it would've been an easy fix...now, I swap brakes based on different destinations.
Definitely a hydraulic brake person although I envy the ease of maintenance and consistency over a long time of mechanical brakes. If you slack on your maintenence with hydros a set of cantis will end up outperforming them. My single piston Shimano are great after they've been tuned up but they dont stay that way all that long. Mechanical brakes on the other hand work just about the same all year long, especially rim brakes tbh.
Another reason why your front brake is the most important one is that, when braking, the mass of you and your vehicle shifts forward and therefore puts extra weight on your front wheel (and relieving your back wheel) which gives you more grip/stopping power.
& that's Me. the euros, & motos run the front on the right hand brake lever. Tort lawyers are responsible for American bikes having left lever front brakes.
Running Origin 8 Vises (a copy of the Yokozuna Motoko 2 piston) on my Giant gravel bike and they are OK. I went to this style because I wanted to eliminate the massive Giant Conduct stem mounted cable actuated master cylinder and keep my cable shifter/brake levers. Glad I did too cuz not only was that boat anchor over 400 grams (454 is a lb), it was a huge obstacle for front bags of any type. I'm currently waiting on a backordered pair of Yokozuna Optimos with the 4 piston design. I think these are the ones Logan reviewed last year. They should have more stopping power for sure.
Side note on hydraulic brakes. Shimano uses mineral oil, this is great above 20°F but can swell in the lines below that temp. The swelling causes lose of brake modulation and can even lock up or ruin your brakes. Sram uses DOT fluid which doesn't swell as much in the cold and is a much better deep winter brake. However, I do have a friend that sees issues above 90°F with his sram brakes. Paul Klampers are the mechanical disc brakes I feel best about setting up and maintaining. They aren't perfect but if you ride in a wide variety of weather they are great.
I love these videos. Very informative. I have both mechanical (BB7) as well as hydraulic (XT-2 pad) on my Surlys. Nothing can beat the stopping power of the XT. But, for fixability, I still use the mechanical on the longer rides. I also bought a hybrid (mechanical/hydraulic - Zoom X-Tech) on a bike (Stump jumper) I use for testing - smoother than the BB7, but not as much stopping power. Waiting for metal pads and 180 mm rotor to see if I can get it to stop better.
Reliability of hydraulic brakes is pretty established with major brands putting them on mid entry level hybrids now. For road use, I don't object to even cheap mechanical disc brakes, and they are going to have more than enough power to throw you over the bars. I have canti's with kool stops on a cargo bike that stop it just fine in the rain with the bike loaded upwards of 270+lbs, but setup is a pain. I like the modulation of properly setup V brakes, but pad/rim wear and wet weather are the big drawbacks. I have worn out a set of V brake in a couple lift served downhill mountain biking runs back in the day, so I wouldn't run rim brakes other than on a vintage bike, for riding around town, or on my road bike.
I use the cable-actuated hydraulic TRP Hy/Rd on my commuter/gravel bike. The modulation and stopping power is way better than a pure mechanical but falls short from pure hydraulic. My fingers don't get tired on long descents with my fully-loaded bike+gear weighing around 50 lbs. The only downside I have from the brake is the reservoir is huge af (aesthetics) and the semi-metallic brake pads squeals loudly when it's wet.
4 piston, hydraulic, sintered pads, and stick with SRAM (Code R's) to answer the up-front questions. Would have steel-braided lines had I good reason to worry. (Some new super-cars are coming with 6 piston calipers..! Trickle-down to motorcycles and then mountain-bikes down the road?). Lastly, living in Nevada, which is the most mountainous state in the Lower 48, have found that more is better no matter what you're doing. Bombing down Mt. Rose Highway or any mountain backroad at 40-45 mph, 4 pistons make things safer, faster, and more fun. Spot-on video btw(!).
My touring/bike packing bike has hydraulic brakes - mainly because it was built using my old mountain bike components on a new Surly frame. I use Hope two piston brakes on the rear and four piston on the front - because that's what I had! they are now 13 years old and all I have done is clean them and change the pads and rotors from time to time as they wear out. Both are 160mm so I only have to carry one spare. They are now getting a bit noisy and squeal a lot but they still haul me up like a champ - even on steep descents with 60lb of gear on board. They have braided hoses so are super tough and have survived many cartwheels and tumbles when they were on my MTB. I'm in no hurry to swap n- if it aint broke, don't fix it!
I recently switched from organic to semi-metallic front pads on my gravel bike & I'm a fan. It's a ultegra hydro & coming from a gravel bike with BB5 it's a good upgrade. One con to hydro is pistons can get stuck & will need to be cleaned as I experienced the other week. I upgrade the bakes during spring on my 27.5+ bike from the sram level TL & sram rotors to G2 RS with Magura storm control rotors, which are 2.0mm thick. Rear is still stock TL with 180mm rotors but I now have a bit more modulation & better emergncy stopping power. The thicker rotor also need to be a bit more durable but might just be a placebo effect.
I made a pretty big tech jump from my Bridgestone to my AC Cosmic Stallion 11spd GRX/Hydraulic disc whip. It’s amazing, but I do get a little anxious at the thought of mechanicals when I know everything on it is pretty new and techy. Oh well though. I’m fully in the camp of a 2x 11 psd with hydraulic disc brakes for running fat meat. Great vid and thanks
Shimano Saint with 180mm rotor front and rear. You could stop a truck with that braking power. No concerns about dragging them for a long time on steep descents, just confidence!
Absolutely fantastic vid, probably the best content i have seen on RUclips about bicycle brakes. I have a Radrover 5 Ebike and the brakes are absolutely crap!! These are stock cable actuated mechanical disk brakes. After riding this bike 5,000 miles in the last year there is so much maintenance just to keep these brakes working. Any suggestion on a better mechanical brake to install on this bike? Not concerned about price, just need better brakes. All comments welcome. Thanks from Woodinville WA.
I had a pair of hybrid cable actuated hydro brakes by Origin8, but completely underwhelmed by their performance. Upgraded to Paul Component Klampers, which are basically really lovely BB7s.
I have hydraulic 1 pistion sram brakes on my bikepacking bike, they workt perfect last year in Iceland. But this year in the swiss Alps I had a lot of fast pavement decents and pretty steep, my 220mm roters on it got Hot my resin pads.... 2$ a pear out of China .... lost stopping power, when the decent progressed more down, still was able to stop save but I had some moments that where trouble some. Going to look for some metalic pads for next year for the GDMBR
There's a compromise as well. Shimano just released the 12spd hydraulic R7100, but no mechanical. Leaves a lot with R7000 11spd wanting a mechanical disk option. The hybrid disc-actuated hydraulic brake is a solution. The Juin tech GT-F being a solid goto for gravel & bikepacking.
I've been on (the same) BB7s for a decade at least. The older ones were just built better. This year I added compressionless housing and 203mm rotors to the recipe and I gotta say, they are *as powerful* as my Saints on my other bikes. Metal pads for longevity through all conditions.
TRP Spyke on organic pads. I have them dialed and stop on a dime. On my main bike I have Shimano Deore XT 2-piston on organic pads. They are the first and only hydraulics I’ve owned.
on my touring mtb I use a two piston hydraulic brakes and on my gravel bike its a cable actuated hydraulic set up. It's a world of difference. On my MTB I can stop on a dime anytime. On the other hand, my first 100km ride with my gravel bike got me into a minor bump because I couldn't stop fast enough enough. Rain could have been a factor on that too.
@RollinRat Agreed. I went for cable discs as I couldn't afford the hydro model, but thought, it's not a cheap bike and they're not going to have some unsafe brakes for a decent bike. I was so wrong.
@RollinRat thank you. It's a boardman adv 8.6 (not the best brand etc but I got a discount through a friend). The brakes are Tektro MD-C510 flat mount cable (I'll be swapping with at least a bb7 and better pads, I have a spare from an old bike). I can only get a good quality breaking if I shift my hands down to the bottom drop. Brifters are Sora. I will add compressionless cables so thanks for that tip too
@RollinRat I appreciate the comprehensive rundown, confirmed a few things too. I will make what adjustments I can already ie positioning then see what can be liberated from old. I had a mtb with the long brake levers and old bb7, was great, got stolen though. Yeah it does feel like a fat tired road bike, I thought it would make for more comfort from multiple grips plus chance to get a bit more speed from low positioning. I am in agreement on the brifters too. At the mercy of needing a jack of trades bike rather than a couple masters.
@RollinRat I keep it till so much is knackered that it's either a full refit or a replacement, and they're never stellar to begin with, only had a few lifetime. I like the bike just miss the sure stop of old flat bars, which from what I've seen the hydraulic fixes. I feel like it's a natural flaw of the grip on the brake and its pivot. Also even with V breaks its coming from both sides not single like cheaper mech disc
@RollinRat I heard horror stories of sram failing on hills. That Surly bar looks amazing, I looked for bar swap options before but had no luck as it weren't just the bar. Even without the build issues I prefer the brake and shift separate, just a bar that goes one way to stop, no alternate direction for shifting. I guess custom build is the only way for both
Rim brakes were so simple. I never had an issue accept squeaking brakes.😀 Mechanical disc brakes are just easier for the average biker. Most don’t have huge downhills or need for such power. I’ve had mechanical disc brakes on 2 gravel bikes and had more than enough power on both. I now have hydraulic brakes on a Hardtail and a 29er bmx. The bmx is stored in the garage hanging by the front wheel to save space and I’ve found that sometimes this causes the brakes to go squishy. The hardtail has had extra long cables that came setup from factory for 9 months because I am cheap and don’t own the tool to insert the barb. I have almost all other tools having been a bike mechanic and have worked on many mechanical disc brakes with great success. Hydraulics are just complicated😔
I run cable hydro Juin x1 in the front and trp spyre in the rear. Mostly bc the juin tech worked so good I put my rear brake on the front of my gf bike and put the mech on my rear. If the juin tech dies on a trip I’ll just switch the spyre up front until I’m home
Great vid as always. I’ve all of the above on my various bikes, I will say the cable actuated hydraulics are great but get a brand that you can manually adjust for pad wear such as Juin tech. Neil, I’d love to see a video on the use of clip on aero bars for bike packing especially when paired with hooped handle bars such as the Jones or so see Confucius. Live to hear you advice and lessons learned. Cheers
A similar thing happened to gravel racing. I remember a few years ago for some of the longer races people were running mechanical brakes because they could "fix the bike on the side of the road." I would say if your day is going that poorly you should probably just stop, get off your bike, and grab a beer
I went from cable BB7's (often said to be the best for power & "modulation" to Sram Level TL 2 piston hydros on my bikepacking MTB & was blown away. I rode big motorcycles before getting into cycling & that's usually two (yes, two!) 6-piston calipers (yes, 6!) up front, & a single 6-piston on the rear with a smaller rotor. I had reservations about reliability like most people do but I don't know why. It's going to be a looooong time before you need to replace a hose. Bleeding bicycle hyrdos once or twice a year is a doddle. Similarly the upgrade from 2-piston Level TL's to 4-piston Guide R's was noticeable in power & modulation. I ride with full camping gear on rough steep trails sometimes & that's where these things shine. The cable actuated hydros look very neat! Maybe when my Guides wear out in about 20 years time....
I've been hearing a lot more recently about how good Paul Klampers are... a far cry from the BB7's I used to run. Now it's XT 2-piston but I will prolly be going to XT 4-piston. I'm a shimano guy simply because I don't want to use caustic brake fluid unless I have to. Mineral oil for the win... Thanks! Riding in -40°... NO THANKS!!!
It happened when I was on a normal commute into work one winters day many years ago and it changed my bicycle life forever for the better and, although at the time it was scary and I feared for my life part way through, I am glad it happened because riding is now more fun. Overnight it had snowed, so as usual I lowered my saddle and deflated the tyres just a little. About half way along my commute there is a T junction with the road that I was on sloping downhill into the junction. Until then, through the journey, nothing had gone amiss, but as I approached the junction I realized that a farmers tractor would arrive in the junction almost when I did and so I began to brake to come to a halt..... and my bike didn't slow down.... the wheels went faster and the brake cables had frozen solid.... and when I got to the junction I was just lucky that the farmer had realized my predicament and brought his big 4 wheel drive to a halt while I sailed through and ended up in the hedge and ditch on the other side of the road. That afternoon I bought my first hydraulic brake set and had it delivered the following day, so that weekend it went onto my bike and I have never looked back. I still own that bike and the Shimano brakes have been incredibly reliable and since then I have had plenty of opportunity to test them out at the same spot and they have never failed regardless of how much snow and ice there is on the road and on me. Cables - given the conditions - freeze completely solid and at that point they are not brakes and instead are a liability.
Between my driveway and the point where my cable disc brakes stopped functioning there are 26 junctions and even more places and changes of direction where you would need to use brakes and until they stopped working they had functioned without any sign that anything was about to happen. And then it did and like pretty much everybody I was shocked and anxious and looking for explanation. I must have pulled front and rear brake levers dozens of times and each time it was obvious that the front was frozen solid and the rear was only partly functional and then after 30 minutes, walking along headed towards work, the brakes began functioning correctly - first the rear and about 5 more minutes later the front and I carefully remounted and slowly made my way into work late. Since then I have spoken with others who want another explanation because cables just don't start not moving in their outers - sorry yes they do and given the conditions they will do. Also I have talked about it with people who have experienced the very same or similar. Don't get me wrong - I have just spent most of the pandemic period carefully restoring a old CroMo Specialized Rockhopper and it uses rim brakes and they use cables..... and it is the most stupendously wonderful bike to ride because, apart from the sound of the tyres running over tarmac or mud or rock. it is next to completely silent.... even the chain running over chainrings and jockey wheels and cassette makes no noise that your aware of. I think it would have been shorter to type that I am not a old tech hater and there are lots of things that have happened in the bicycle industry which frankly I think are crap. Hydraulic brakes are not. When cable brakes fail your hydraulic brakes keep working.
Well I changed to Paul Components Klamper Brakes a good number of years ago and have not looked back, yes hydraulic Brakes work great are much cheaper than Klamper Brakes but having to bleed hydraulic brakes all the time at work in a bike shop, when I go riding I just don't want to think about repairing or bleeding my Brakes because I'm having time out from work. So I pay full price and run Paul Components Klamper's and it's time to buy a second set in the coming months.
This video should be entitled disc brakes for bike packing because there are still some of us who use rim brakes so my question is this what were people using before the Advent of disc brakes ?
Where are cable brakes cheaper? I recently tried to build a Krampus on the cheap, and looked at cable discs thinking they were cheaper. No way - entry level Shimano M400 series are about $50 an end, lever, caliper, and pre-bled, ready to instal brake hose (about $15 cheaper than a BB5 setup here - taking into account the rotor and cables). Somewhere along the way cable discs have evolved into a boutique product, the rest of us are stuck with fantastic hydraulic brakes.
Honestly going for hydraulic brakes on my gravel bike is one of my biggest regrets. Super expensive, a pain to service, easy to blow up, and a surprising number of bike shops don't know how to work on them. Hybrid systems are definitely the best of both worlds.
The sole reason I use metalic pads on my journeys is the possibility of cleaning them. By that I mean blazing them for a moment with a gas stove I use for cooking. Organic pads just cant be fixed once they get greasy, but you can salvage metalic ones and still get home safely.
I’ve got an old mountain I’ve tried to turn into a bikepacking bike. It’s my everyone not single track bike. It has rim brakes since it’s ‘96. I assume it would be a good idea to have a fresh set of pads if I plan on going on a long multi day trip.
The best V-brakes I have ever had are ProShift brakes. Best mountain bike rim brakes I have ever seen. If you can find a set, grab ‘em! They’re a lot like the Hope of the 90s; all custom CNC machined. I still run them on my Fat Chance Yo Eddy.
Invest in PAUL linear (V) brakes and learn how they function, not too bad. Unreal stopping power for a V-brake, the legends are true. KoolStop pads and you're good to go. I forget that I have vbrakes in back and a disc up front. They are amazing brakes by any standard. Not cheap but I've a set that are ancient, the pink anodizing has faded, but they function like new.
4 pots front, 2 pots back hydraulic brakes best for bikes for xc and a slight trail riding. It will probably work for 90% of riding unless if you are riding downhill Mtb.
Just keep all the cables below the stem and go into the headtube to avoid unnecessary interruption after mounted the handlebar bag. Not only brake cables, you missed out shifter cables for this case. I'm having issue for shifting accuracy, for my case it is a mechanical derailleur, not electronic.
I had my Sram hydro (Guide R model) rear brake go out completely on two big downhills this summer. Could be reactivated by pumping the lever and waiting a bit Due to what? Overheated oil? Air bubbles? Very scary none the less! Had them bled and they worked fine afterward but I can never fully trust them and want to swap over to Shimano.
Out of my experience I now avoid sram brakes for a few reasons one being the very same thing that had happened to you, what's with those brakes? Shimano drive tran and brakes all day every day on all four of my bikes with zero issues. I sure would like for you to get some Shimano brakes real soon so you could get some confidence back in your gear.
Never owned, but have pedaled them around, Logan and Lucas seem to like them. I’m not a fan and they are a bit spendy. For me, It’s hard to go back to mechanical after realizing the ability of a 4 piston hydro.
RIM brakes and tire clearance. Not sure I agree. Prior to disc, mtbs had either c-brakes or cantilevers. In isolation, tire clearance is not the issue.
I really regret not forking out the xtra £350 for hydro brakes vs mech. Unfortunately I'd already pushed my budget as far as I could with the frame etc.
I have a notion that mineral oil freezes up from about -5 Celsius or colder. I have been thinking of a multiday (at least a week) unsupported bike packing trip in the Himalayas with subzero temperatures. Would you suggest mechanical or hydraulic ? Thanks a ton….😇🙏🏼
@@szurketaltos2693 hmm yeah….that’s always there at the back of the mind. Having used hydraulic brakes for ages, it’s like an addiction where one doesn’t want to let go of hydraulics for mechanicals….😁…..
If you have contaminated metallic brake pads, drench in rubbing alcohol then take a lighter to it. All the contamination burns off or lifts for easy wipe off.
Semi or resin pads on the front for good initial bite, but metallic/sintered pad on the rear. On long steep loaded downhills I can feather the rear brake without it fading as they get better with more heat, leaving the front for sharper pulsing when needed for corners etc.
Yeah, mineral oil is more common, great point. I should note, mineral stops working when it gets cold. I’ve crashed because the oils stopped working properly at 25F.
@@BIKEPACKINGcom That's just -4°C. Wouldn't expect them to stop working in such conditions without other factors at work... It's always possible some water might have ended up creeping into the fluid and stopped it from properly moving in those temperatures...
@@87solarsky That is the correct freezing point of mineral oil. I've had shimano brakes freeze in MN winters enough to deter me from winter hydraulics, though now having checked the freezing point of dot fluid I'll likely leave my Levels on this winter.
This along with the Tire video has been extremely helpful to a bike noob planning a great divide trip. Do you think its worth replacing the mechanical brakes on my brand new fargo with hydraulics if its a trip of a lifetime for me and want to have the most enjoyable time?
First I would ride the bike as is. Then I'd load it down and ride down the biggest steepest hills that I could. If the brakes feel inadequate I'd try increasing the size of the rotors. Other things that will improve the function of your cable disk brakes are higher quality compressionless housing and if applicable I'd machine/file the housing ends flat/square. Bad ends on the housing significantly decreases the brakes performance.
@@mikekrasovec6390 thanks! but I’m a hiker and have no clue what a lot of that means or if as is is enough for the GD. Will try though. How much is it to replace with good hydraulic set up
@@pgreenx I think that you'd probably be fine with what you have. Installing bigger rotors is an easier and cheaper option. Mega expensive wunder bikes are rad. What you have is probably good enough for you to have a good trip without your bike turning into absolute junk. Have a few multi day local trips with what you already have. Maybe your handlebars will need to be further out/closer in or higher/lower, different grips/bar tape, seat... or something. Ride your bike as is. Worry about your contact points. With hiking you want shoes that are comfortable for you as well as a backpack that works for you. Bikes are having the seat and handlebars in the right place, a seat that works for you... I will add that there are lots of different types of handlebars as well as variations of a certain type. Within those variations the bars there are differences in how the bars bend - those differences seem minor but actually make a significant difference after you've spent enough consecutive long days on your bike. Ride the crap out of your bike. Make sure that you feel good on it. Make sure that it's working right when you leave. Know how to do a few simple repairs such as fixing flats.
@@mikekrasovec6390 Thanks. I understand the shoes and backpack thing and done my fair share of miles on foot but want to try biking. Looking forward to my trip next yr
Another reason the front rotor is often larger has to do with nature seeking the minimum energy path. I'll spare you the "engineer speak" but, speaking as a structural engineer, it's more efficient for the front brake to take the brunt of it.
Greater than 160 front doesn't make much sense unless you really need the mechanical advantage (downhill MTB for instance). But bigger can actually be better in the rear for long descents! Why? Because of heat dissipation. A bigger rotor dissipates heat better and the rear brake is generally used more for lowering speed.
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Paul klampers for me all the way. I've replaced all my hydros with klampers on all my personal bikes.
Do you have trouble using the adjusting wheel once it gets some dust in there? One came into the shop once and it was frozen solid.
@@cjones7854 I've had a couple that were stiff straight from the factory, but i move them in and out a few clicks before installing them. That seems to do the trick and prevents them from sticking. I have 3 pair of clampers and all 6 of the brake dials adjust and move smoothly.
Do you find that the force required to pull the levers back is fatiguing? Or requires more effort than a hydraulic setup?
Steve - any chance you could test some TRP Spyres to see how they compare to the Klampers?
@@chiefsilverback I'm on trp's list to get some as soon as they become available.
Long-time Avid BB7 lover here.
Why do you like it so much?
@@SchwappSchwopp Cheap, simple, easy to set up, plenty of power.
@@peterknight7880 thx!
I love the hybrid cable/hydraulics. I got a pair of Juin-tech's to test them out, and suddenly all my bikes have them
Yeah same here! Love them to bits!
Same here! Love my Juin/Techs.
Juin Tech GT (4-piston) are the shiznit.
@@WordupG i have 4 piston 180s up front 2 piston 160s rear. They are reliably featherable and never need more than 2 fingers to get to max braking power. A noticeable upgrade to the cable TRP spyres I used to use
@@no_Ray_bang Very good combination!
I mainly bought them because I already had a good Sram groupset and I didn't want to change it. I was surprised at how good these ended up being.
TRP Spyke's with 180mm rotors and Avid speed dial 7 brake levers .. I just love them ... I love the simplicity and reliability of mechanical disc brakes and not having to hassle with brake oil fluids and special bleeding kits.
Are spykes flat mount or post mount?
@@ChrisBHaven They're post mount.
9:15 take off your rotor and pads, then pour boiling water then wash it with some dishwashing liquid. Works like magic. Makes your rotors and pads feel like brand new!
Rad, thanks for the tip!
Good tip, now wondering if putting them in the dishwasher would also work 🤔
@@jonhume6051 haven't tried that, but you're welcome to try 😁
Could I throw them in the washing machine with my dirty chamois?
@@BlakeMilliken I like to spitshine my dirty chamois'
The reason for larger brakes on the front of any vehicle is due to the change in traction under braking. When a braking force is applied to a bike or car the momentum continues forward and increases the force applied to the front wheel(s). This increases the available traction which can then be utilized for greater braking. Simultaneously, the weight shift reduces the force on the rear wheel(s) which is why it’s so easy to skid the rear tire(s) compared to the front during braking.
For a bikepacking or adventure rigs I always run the same size rotors front and rear in case I have a failure. If that happens, I just use the good setup on the front and brake gingerly, distributing my weight low and rearward.
Yes, the weight is transferred to the front wheel when braking. Hence, the front brake does more work. Same thing applies to cars, motorcycles, etc.
Good tip for bike packing on having a consistent setup to make swaps and spares easy that way all need to carry is I spare over the same but for the weight weenie at least carry a spare front setup for emergency if you do since it's your best one
@@heathenshaunt681 I agree - I run 160mm rotors front and rear just to reduce complexity.
@@dperreno I am going to be checking out a few things I have the Tektro brakes that come on a Trek Verve 2. They are nice but I know there's great options that won't break my wallet I am thinking about adding pistons and going to 180s since I will be adding a bafang mid drive and I will have a trailer too. Honestly I want to do a few bikes since they are all I'm going to mess with for a while lol 😆😆
Great tip about mounting the handlebar bag when you are determining the length of the cable. Thanks Neil!
I'm still on V-brakes on my touring hardtail MTB. Maintenance is yeasy peasy. Brake pads are thicker than those in disc brakes so they last longer (I don't often ride when it's raining during the tour because of duly planning). Yes, with long decents on a heavy bike, arm muscles get tired, but I make stops from time to time to enjoy the views around. No noise, no frequent adjustments, lighter weight, lower risk of damaging brakes by bad handling in airports.
I run a set of PAUL linear (vbrakes) in back and a BB7 with a 180 rotor up front. My fork is rigid but new school so I can run the disc up front. The Paul's are very strong and i swear I don't notice that it isn't a disc. KoolStop pads and if you can, like RollinRat suggests...ceramic coated rims. If you can find them anymore, expensive but worthy. Cheers and happy pedaling/pushing!
A tip for bedding in brakes. Rather than feathering the brakes pedal up to full speed and do a hard consistent stop and repeat 10-20 times. This gets the brake pad material to a very high temperature and makes them last a lot longer. I've been riding for 30+ years and i weigh around 210 lbs. I always use Hope E4 brakes and i get around 4000 miles out of a set a pads using this method.
I'd usually recommend following the manufacturers directions for bedding in. Hard stops can leave deposits, and could lead to a bumpy brake. If you take a look at Shimano's recommendations the process is closer to the feathering mentioned here, no complete stops. Get up to speed, brake to walking speed, repeat 10-20 times. Park Tool follows a similar process.
As a professional bike mechanic, bedding your breaks is on you.
First preference is rim brakes, I'm old school and like the simplicity. For disc brakes mechanical is my choice again for ease of maintenance.
Or the bike has the right mounts I like rim brakes mounted as a back up for hydraulic disk brakes
I never understood what the ease of maintanance everyone talks about is based on. My hydros have been untouched for the 2.5 years i own my bike and ride daily. My friends have cable discs and they are way too weak, need constant adjusting to keep up with pad wear and have snapped cables more than once. Mind you, that is in the 4 months that they have their bikes.
My pocket book can answer that one, BB7's. Still runn'in these, probably have six pair. They work well enough for me.
One thing some people don't take onto consideration with mechanicals is the difference between pull ratios with different levers and caliper combos. Even ones that are both "short pull" will feel different because of the difference in mechanical advantage. Most people hate old canti brakes but if you set them up right, they can feel great! I have mech that came on my gravel bike (TRP Spyres with SRAM levers) and I'm quite happy with them. My hardtail mtb came with hydros and those feel great but as a mechanic at a shop, I admit I don't enjoy bleeding brakes.
Another thing, some people say rim brakes suck but they're using 30 year old pads! Those won't stop you and will eat right through your rim. Get some Kool Stop Salmon or if you want one finger action, get the Grey E-Bike pads. One finger with 90s cantis on an xc trail.
Yeah, that’s a video in itself. Great points.
Good thought you put there, I used rim brakes for many years now and don't see the point to switch to disk brakes when on flat terrain. In cities or on medium terrain you won't need all that stopping power with 1 finger, if you needto brake hard... then brake hard, take those hands and damn squeeze em!
Also, when bikepacking you can use a multitool to tune your brakes in 2mins and have the same nice ez feeling when braking.
(If I'd come to ride downhill I'd choose disk brakes though... no overheating of the rim and so on :D)
What are these gray e-bike pads you’re describing? Who makes them?
I just got a gravel bike with drop bars (my first set of drop bars), and I cannot brake on the hood with the mechanical brakes. I couldn't spend the extra on the hydros but now regret the bike full stop.
@@andrew2272kaghello, what model calipers and levers if I may ask ?
I have had the TRP HY/RD's on my drop bar KM for a few years now. I love them over the mechanicals that are on my other bike.
I had them before than I switched to the Spyre, easier to fix in the field.
HY/RD's where flawless but once you need to dial them in (purge)... argg.. I bumped into a wall... tried and tried but could not get the bite right.
@@nikoulph This is why all my bikes still have mechanical. And they are all the Spyre or Spyre-C platform, since they are all dual actuated.
@@_MrSnrub HOlly molly, :) thank you. I had HYRD years ago, than I had to purge the caliper... Could not do it my self even if I tried and tried but still spongy Bob. The mechanical disk brakes do wonders SPYRE etc...
I'm a hydraulic fan. That said there's a gravel bike I'm considering in a color I like but only problem is the mechanical break it comes with. Rather than spend a 1000 bucks on replacing parts for hydraulic will these trp hy/rd satisfy me if I'm doing offroading and need need fast stops on road if a car runs a light?
@@SwyvCrux I had the same situation and went for the mech bike rather than waiting for a suitable hydro (in my case the hydro was too much more for me). I used to have an MTB flat bars with bb7, no issues. Got the gravel bike with mech disc and drop bars and I can't stand it, braking on the hoods is impossible. I really regret not getting hydros.
If and when I ever get myself a gravel/bikepacking rig, I plan on going with Paul Components Klampers. I actually have a pair of PC Cross Stop 2's that I purchased in the mid 90's and they were absolutely awesome, so I know Paul makes great stuff. Steve from Hardtail Party is running a set on his mountain bike and has nothing but praise for them. They're pricey, but being able to stop with the simplicity of mechanical brakes is worth it
I use Shimano MT520 calipers with MT501 levers. They are darn reliable although I modified some things.
1. Pads are Trickstuff resin. These make all the difference. They last longer than the OEMs and the modulation is way better. Rotor is Trickstuff as well, machined stainless steel.
2. I don‘t run the OEM Shimano fluid. I makes the brakes do weird things under cold conditions. The point were they start to grab moves back and forth because the fluid‘s viscosity is too high. I changed to a Putoline fork oil and everything is perfect now 👍🏼
Informative vid, you guy's should suggest recycling old parts instead of the trash can!
Paul Klampers here. Amazing mechanical brakes. I've used many mech and hydro (including XT 4 pot), and the Paul's hit the sweet spot for me.
Just upgraded to SRAM Guide R 4 pistons from 2 pistons on my fat bike. Also I went with 180 front and 160 back rotors. Quite a difference, mostly in the ease of braking but also in the confidence in slowing/stopping. Also, I've had good luck "curing" wailing brakes by getting up to speed (20mph+) on a long downhill and slowing down to a stop repeatedly. This seems to burn off the gunk or something. Anyhow, it hasn't failed me yet...
I don't have much experience with disc brakes, but I do have a gravel/touring bike with the hydro-mechanical 4-piston Yokozuna Ultimos, and I think they're great. Very easy to set up and adjust, and they feel and stop so much better than any of the lower-end mechanical disc brakes I've tried from Tektro.
Been riding on Paul Klampers for the past two years. Recommend them hands down. Ease of tool-free adjustability is top notch. They’re expensive but you’re supporting some awesome guys in Oregon being paid an actual living wage.
Paul is in Chico, California.
I use the TRP Spyke/Spyre on my Bikes with 180 or 203 Disc Rotor in the front. I ride all the year in every weather conditions and my experience is, that the mechanic Disc brakes make no problems. If there is noise I can regular the brake pads with a small srew. If you ran hydraulics there is no possibilty to regular the Brake Pads. On oue Travel Tandem I use a hydraulic Disc Brakes with 203mm Disc Rotors front and rear.
Excellent, thorough coverage of a topic I know nothing about (my ride is a 1997 Litespeed Obed, so disc brakes aren't happening!). I do plan to get a new, bikepacking/touring bike, so this was very helpful.
Yours is the first video out of dozens I have watched that addresses the issue of front cables and bar bags - NONE of the bar bag reviews and videos ever mention this, which confused me when I bought my first bar bag and thought, "Hmmmm, cables over? Cables under?" (luckily, the bag fit well without crimping the cables).
I’m a big fan of hydraulic brakes with metallic pads on every bikes 🤘
Good video. Mechanical brakes: I can fix them myself easy peasy. Hydros: a whole weekend every year working on them... I prefer go biking 🙂 and if you take the bike for maintenance... Every brake check cost more than a new set of mechanical brakes calipers 😅
TRP Spyre for me,
Need to be dialed every few days (depends on the usage). Less braking power compared to hydraulic (but good enough for bikepacking/touring).
But definitely easy on the maintenance, out in the field.
BB7 mechanics - on my mountain e-bike, do their work good
For me is important absolute realiability and minimalism in service, with high stopping power for heavy bike (22 kg)
Using semi-metallic pads, to ride all year around at any weather (resin is nothing in rain and snow) around the city. Kyiv, having here lots of uphills ans descents in the centre. Maybe, will try sintered ones in future
I use hydraulic front brake and mechanical rear. My main brake is the front and I like the modulation of hydraulic disc brakes. Rear brake is mostly for control and if the front fail to be a backup.
I’ve mixed them. Hydraulic in the front and mechanical in the rear. It was a force choice but it worked fine.
Love it!
Love my Avid BB7 with speed dial lever on the rear of my XC. Don't even need a front brake on dutch XC trails. My park HT is hydro front & rear as arm pump is a thing..
I’ve used all 3 options.
Hayes,full mech:
junk,1/10 power
Juin Tech R1,mech/hydro: superb value,light,8/10 power
Ultegra full hydro:
heavy,a faff to service,10/10 power
I’ve used both mechanical and hydro and prefer hydraulic. I’ve toured many thousands of miles on mechanical Shimano calipers with resin pads and they were pretty bad. Pads constantly needed adjusting which is something a hydraulic brake does without you even knowing. Braking power leaves something to be desired with a loaded bike going fast on steep descents. There is essentially no fade though which is a nice plus. I then got a bike with low tier Shimano hydraulics and they were not great. They came with resin pads which had great initial bite but I found they faded super easy where the mechanical discs would not have an issue. On top of this I found that resin pads were usually done for if they got contaminated. I upgraded to Shimano mt 520 with metallic pads and it was a world of difference. Amazing modulation, good power, and no fade. You can really feel metallic pads get more bite as you heat them up on descents. I don’t mind the noise either. Even when cold they offer enough power for my needs. Also metallic pads seem to be much easier to decontaminate as oils don’t seep as deep as resin pads so there is not as much sanding required. I found that even after decontaminating pads several times they still outlasted the rotors. I think with a metallic pad there is not much reason to get a ice tech rotor as the cooling is not really required and they wear out too quick for a metallic pad. I’ll be going with all steel for now on. Really the only pain with hydraulic brakes is maintenance and cost of repair. It’s sometimes messy and the ceramic pistons on Shimano brakes can crack super easy. If they crack your kind of screwed. Gotta be careful about it.
"What is best" depends on where and how far you'd go bike packing. I used to have full hydro brakes on all my bikes, until I crashed and kinked my hose that led to brake problems on the road..had I used a mech, then it would've been an easy fix...now, I swap brakes based on different destinations.
Definitely a hydraulic brake person although I envy the ease of maintenance and consistency over a long time of mechanical brakes. If you slack on your maintenence with hydros a set of cantis will end up outperforming them. My single piston Shimano are great after they've been tuned up but they dont stay that way all that long. Mechanical brakes on the other hand work just about the same all year long, especially rim brakes tbh.
Another reason why your front brake is the most important one is that, when braking, the mass of you and your vehicle shifts forward and therefore puts extra weight on your front wheel (and relieving your back wheel) which gives you more grip/stopping power.
Great point, thanks for the comment.
Just like a motorcycle. 70% of braking power comes from the front.
& that's Me. the euros, & motos run the front on the right hand brake lever. Tort lawyers are responsible for American bikes having left lever front brakes.
Yup. I used to train descending with just front brakes; just to keep from going OTB.
Running Origin 8 Vises (a copy of the Yokozuna Motoko 2 piston) on my Giant gravel bike and they are OK. I went to this style because I wanted to eliminate the massive Giant Conduct stem mounted cable actuated master cylinder and keep my cable shifter/brake levers. Glad I did too cuz not only was that boat anchor over 400 grams (454 is a lb), it was a huge obstacle for front bags of any type. I'm currently waiting on a backordered pair of Yokozuna Optimos with the 4 piston design. I think these are the ones Logan reviewed last year. They should have more stopping power for sure.
Side note on hydraulic brakes. Shimano uses mineral oil, this is great above 20°F but can swell in the lines below that temp. The swelling causes lose of brake modulation and can even lock up or ruin your brakes. Sram uses DOT fluid which doesn't swell as much in the cold and is a much better deep winter brake. However, I do have a friend that sees issues above 90°F with his sram brakes. Paul Klampers are the mechanical disc brakes I feel best about setting up and maintaining. They aren't perfect but if you ride in a wide variety of weather they are great.
I love these videos. Very informative. I have both mechanical (BB7) as well as hydraulic (XT-2 pad) on my Surlys. Nothing can beat the stopping power of the XT. But, for fixability, I still use the mechanical on the longer rides. I also bought a hybrid (mechanical/hydraulic - Zoom X-Tech) on a bike (Stump jumper) I use for testing - smoother than the BB7, but not as much stopping power. Waiting for metal pads and 180 mm rotor to see if I can get it to stop better.
I´m using semi-hydraulic brakes with semi-metallic brakepads. :) Resin is on semi-hydraulic a little bit to soft braking power.
Reliability of hydraulic brakes is pretty established with major brands putting them on mid entry level hybrids now. For road use, I don't object to even cheap mechanical disc brakes, and they are going to have more than enough power to throw you over the bars. I have canti's with kool stops on a cargo bike that stop it just fine in the rain with the bike loaded upwards of 270+lbs, but setup is a pain. I like the modulation of properly setup V brakes, but pad/rim wear and wet weather are the big drawbacks. I have worn out a set of V brake in a couple lift served downhill mountain biking runs back in the day, so I wouldn't run rim brakes other than on a vintage bike, for riding around town, or on my road bike.
I use the cable-actuated hydraulic TRP Hy/Rd on my commuter/gravel bike. The modulation and stopping power is way better than a pure mechanical but falls short from pure hydraulic. My fingers don't get tired on long descents with my fully-loaded bike+gear weighing around 50 lbs. The only downside I have from the brake is the reservoir is huge af (aesthetics) and the semi-metallic brake pads squeals loudly when it's wet.
4 piston, hydraulic, sintered pads, and stick with SRAM (Code R's) to answer the up-front questions. Would have steel-braided lines had I good reason to worry. (Some new super-cars are coming with 6 piston calipers..! Trickle-down to motorcycles and then mountain-bikes down the road?). Lastly, living in Nevada, which is the most mountainous state in the Lower 48, have found that more is better no matter what you're doing. Bombing down Mt. Rose Highway or any mountain backroad at 40-45 mph, 4 pistons make things safer, faster, and more fun. Spot-on video btw(!).
My touring/bike packing bike has hydraulic brakes - mainly because it was built using my old mountain bike components on a new Surly frame. I use Hope two piston brakes on the rear and four piston on the front - because that's what I had! they are now 13 years old and all I have done is clean them and change the pads and rotors from time to time as they wear out. Both are 160mm so I only have to carry one spare. They are now getting a bit noisy and squeal a lot but they still haul me up like a champ - even on steep descents with 60lb of gear on board. They have braided hoses so are super tough and have survived many cartwheels and tumbles when they were on my MTB. I'm in no hurry to swap n- if it aint broke, don't fix it!
I recently switched from organic to semi-metallic front pads on my gravel bike & I'm a fan. It's a ultegra hydro & coming from a gravel bike with BB5 it's a good upgrade. One con to hydro is pistons can get stuck & will need to be cleaned as I experienced the other week.
I upgrade the bakes during spring on my 27.5+ bike from the sram level TL & sram rotors to G2 RS with Magura storm control rotors, which are 2.0mm thick. Rear is still stock TL with 180mm rotors but I now have a bit more modulation & better emergncy stopping power. The thicker rotor also need to be a bit more durable but might just be a placebo effect.
I believe your video is impeccable, based on facts and very well presented. For what it counts I got to your same conclusions. Bravo 😁
I made a pretty big tech jump from my Bridgestone to my AC Cosmic Stallion 11spd GRX/Hydraulic disc whip. It’s amazing, but I do get a little anxious at the thought of mechanicals when I know everything on it is pretty new and techy. Oh well though. I’m fully in the camp of a 2x 11 psd with hydraulic disc brakes for running fat meat. Great vid and thanks
Shimano Saint with 180mm rotor front and rear. You could stop a truck with that braking power. No concerns about dragging them for a long time on steep descents, just confidence!
Absolutely fantastic vid, probably the best content i have seen on RUclips about bicycle brakes. I have a Radrover 5 Ebike and the brakes are absolutely crap!! These are stock cable actuated mechanical disk brakes. After riding this bike 5,000 miles in the last year there is so much maintenance just to keep these brakes working. Any suggestion on a better mechanical brake to install on this bike? Not concerned about price, just need better brakes. All comments welcome. Thanks from Woodinville WA.
I had a pair of hybrid cable actuated hydro brakes by Origin8, but completely underwhelmed by their performance. Upgraded to Paul Component Klampers, which are basically really lovely BB7s.
This on my Jones LWB; I am a big clyde.
I have hydraulic 1 pistion sram brakes on my bikepacking bike, they workt perfect last year in Iceland. But this year in the swiss Alps I had a lot of fast pavement decents and pretty steep, my 220mm roters on it got Hot my resin pads.... 2$ a pear out of China .... lost stopping power, when the decent progressed more down, still was able to stop save but I had some moments that where trouble some.
Going to look for some metalic pads for next year for the GDMBR
There's a compromise as well. Shimano just released the 12spd hydraulic R7100, but no mechanical. Leaves a lot with R7000 11spd wanting a mechanical disk option. The hybrid disc-actuated hydraulic brake is a solution. The Juin tech GT-F being a solid goto for gravel & bikepacking.
I've been on (the same) BB7s for a decade at least. The older ones were just built better. This year I added compressionless housing and 203mm rotors to the recipe and I gotta say, they are *as powerful* as my Saints on my other bikes. Metal pads for longevity through all conditions.
I'm on the same setup.. BB7 + 203mm for 17 years.. hard to trust anything else
I have XT hydraulics on my trail bike but still rockin my trusty Avid BB7 circa 2008 on my gravel and a newer BB7 on my fatbike for those -20C rides.
Shimano XT have great stopping power and just seem to work. Love them on my MTB. Smaller rotors on the gravel bike and would really like to swap!
For hydro Magura for the win, but recently really loving Paul klampers !
I used Maguras a while back, really liked them. I wish they can stock on more bikes.
I miss my old Magura Martas. Best brakes I’ve owned. I foolishly let them go on a bike I sold.
what is so nice about the PKs?
TRP Spyke on organic pads. I have them dialed and stop on a dime.
On my main bike I have Shimano Deore XT 2-piston on organic pads. They are the first and only hydraulics I’ve owned.
on my touring mtb I use a two piston hydraulic brakes and on my gravel bike its a cable actuated hydraulic set up. It's a world of difference. On my MTB I can stop on a dime anytime. On the other hand, my first 100km ride with my gravel bike got me into a minor bump because I couldn't stop fast enough enough. Rain could have been a factor on that too.
@RollinRat Agreed. I went for cable discs as I couldn't afford the hydro model, but thought, it's not a cheap bike and they're not going to have some unsafe brakes for a decent bike. I was so wrong.
@RollinRat thank you. It's a boardman adv 8.6 (not the best brand etc but I got a discount through a friend). The brakes are Tektro MD-C510 flat mount cable (I'll be swapping with at least a bb7 and better pads, I have a spare from an old bike). I can only get a good quality breaking if I shift my hands down to the bottom drop. Brifters are Sora. I will add compressionless cables so thanks for that tip too
@RollinRat I appreciate the comprehensive rundown, confirmed a few things too. I will make what adjustments I can already ie positioning then see what can be liberated from old. I had a mtb with the long brake levers and old bb7, was great, got stolen though. Yeah it does feel like a fat tired road bike, I thought it would make for more comfort from multiple grips plus chance to get a bit more speed from low positioning. I am in agreement on the brifters too. At the mercy of needing a jack of trades bike rather than a couple masters.
@RollinRat I keep it till so much is knackered that it's either a full refit or a replacement, and they're never stellar to begin with, only had a few lifetime. I like the bike just miss the sure stop of old flat bars, which from what I've seen the hydraulic fixes. I feel like it's a natural flaw of the grip on the brake and its pivot. Also even with V breaks its coming from both sides not single like cheaper mech disc
@RollinRat I heard horror stories of sram failing on hills. That Surly bar looks amazing, I looked for bar swap options before but had no luck as it weren't just the bar. Even without the build issues I prefer the brake and shift separate, just a bar that goes one way to stop, no alternate direction for shifting. I guess custom build is the only way for both
Rim brakes were so simple. I never had an issue accept squeaking brakes.😀 Mechanical disc brakes are just easier for the average biker. Most don’t have huge downhills or need for such power. I’ve had mechanical disc brakes on 2 gravel bikes and had more than enough power on both. I now have hydraulic brakes on a Hardtail and a 29er bmx. The bmx is stored in the garage hanging by the front wheel to save space and I’ve found that sometimes this causes the brakes to go squishy. The hardtail has had extra long cables that came setup from factory for 9 months because I am cheap and don’t own the tool to insert the barb. I have almost all other tools having been a bike mechanic and have worked on many mechanical disc brakes with great success. Hydraulics are just complicated😔
Sweet video. I want that shirt
I haven’t backpacked but run Yokozuna’s and have been happy with the them, they are now 4 plus years old, still stop me.
I run cable hydro Juin x1 in the front and trp spyre in the rear. Mostly bc the juin tech worked so good I put my rear brake on the front of my gf bike and put the mech on my rear. If the juin tech dies on a trip I’ll just switch the spyre up front until I’m home
Great vid as always. I’ve all of the above on my various bikes, I will say the cable actuated hydraulics are great but get a brand that you can manually adjust for pad wear such as Juin tech. Neil, I’d love to see a video on the use of clip on aero bars for bike packing especially when paired with hooped handle bars such as the Jones or so see Confucius. Live to hear you advice and lessons learned. Cheers
Mass in motion. I love Physics. 🚲
Motorcyclists have been exploring the world for decades with hydraulic brakes with little failure.
A similar thing happened to gravel racing. I remember a few years ago for some of the longer races people were running mechanical brakes because they could "fix the bike on the side of the road." I would say if your day is going that poorly you should probably just stop, get off your bike, and grab a beer
I went from cable BB7's (often said to be the best for power & "modulation" to Sram Level TL 2 piston hydros on my bikepacking MTB & was blown away. I rode big motorcycles before getting into cycling & that's usually two (yes, two!) 6-piston calipers (yes, 6!) up front, & a single 6-piston on the rear with a smaller rotor. I had reservations about reliability like most people do but I don't know why. It's going to be a looooong time before you need to replace a hose. Bleeding bicycle hyrdos once or twice a year is a doddle. Similarly the upgrade from 2-piston Level TL's to 4-piston Guide R's was noticeable in power & modulation. I ride with full camping gear on rough steep trails sometimes & that's where these things shine. The cable actuated hydros look very neat! Maybe when my Guides wear out in about 20 years time....
I've been hearing a lot more recently about how good Paul Klampers are... a far cry from the BB7's I used to run. Now it's XT 2-piston but I will prolly be going to XT 4-piston. I'm a shimano guy simply because I don't want to use caustic brake fluid unless I have to. Mineral oil for the win... Thanks! Riding in -40°... NO THANKS!!!
Neil, thanks for this one. Did not know this stuff. Oh, btw...love the stach. :)
I have motorcycles that are thirty years old with hydraulic brakes never had one fail ever are bikes different ?
It happened when I was on a normal commute into work one winters day many years ago and it changed my bicycle life forever for the better and, although at the time it was scary and I feared for my life part way through, I am glad it happened because riding is now more fun.
Overnight it had snowed, so as usual I lowered my saddle and deflated the tyres just a little. About half way along my commute there is a T junction with the road that I was on sloping downhill into the junction. Until then, through the journey, nothing had gone amiss, but as I approached the junction I realized that a farmers tractor would arrive in the junction almost when I did and so I began to brake to come to a halt..... and my bike didn't slow down.... the wheels went faster and the brake cables had frozen solid.... and when I got to the junction I was just lucky that the farmer had realized my predicament and brought his big 4 wheel drive to a halt while I sailed through and ended up in the hedge and ditch on the other side of the road.
That afternoon I bought my first hydraulic brake set and had it delivered the following day, so that weekend it went onto my bike and I have never looked back. I still own that bike and the Shimano brakes have been incredibly reliable and since then I have had plenty of opportunity to test them out at the same spot and they have never failed regardless of how much snow and ice there is on the road and on me. Cables - given the conditions - freeze completely solid and at that point they are not brakes and instead are a liability.
So you did not brake in the first half of your commute?
Between my driveway and the point where my cable disc brakes stopped functioning there are 26 junctions and even more places and changes of direction where you would need to use brakes and until they stopped working they had functioned without any sign that anything was about to happen.
And then it did and like pretty much everybody I was shocked and anxious and looking for explanation. I must have pulled front and rear brake levers dozens of times and each time it was obvious that the front was frozen solid and the rear was only partly functional and then after 30 minutes, walking along headed towards work, the brakes began functioning correctly - first the rear and about 5 more minutes later the front and I carefully remounted and slowly made my way into work late.
Since then I have spoken with others who want another explanation because cables just don't start not moving in their outers - sorry yes they do and given the conditions they will do. Also I have talked about it with people who have experienced the very same or similar.
Don't get me wrong - I have just spent most of the pandemic period carefully restoring a old CroMo Specialized Rockhopper and it uses rim brakes and they use cables..... and it is the most stupendously wonderful bike to ride because, apart from the sound of the tyres running over tarmac or mud or rock. it is next to completely silent.... even the chain running over chainrings and jockey wheels and cassette makes no noise that your aware of.
I think it would have been shorter to type that I am not a old tech hater and there are lots of things that have happened in the bicycle industry which frankly I think are crap. Hydraulic brakes are not. When cable brakes fail your hydraulic brakes keep working.
Well I changed to Paul Components Klamper Brakes a good number of years ago and have not looked back, yes hydraulic Brakes work great are much cheaper than Klamper Brakes but having to bleed hydraulic brakes all the time at work in a bike shop, when I go riding I just don't want to think about repairing or bleeding my Brakes because I'm having time out from work. So I pay full price and run Paul Components Klamper's and it's time to buy a second set in the coming months.
Lots of Klamper love, maybe I need to give them a full time test. I do love the fact that they are made in the States.
Neil for president!
This video should be entitled disc brakes for bike packing because there are still some of us who use rim brakes so my question is this what were people using before the Advent of disc brakes ?
Where are cable brakes cheaper?
I recently tried to build a Krampus on the cheap, and looked at cable discs thinking they were cheaper. No way - entry level Shimano M400 series are about $50 an end, lever, caliper, and pre-bled, ready to instal brake hose (about $15 cheaper than a BB5 setup here - taking into account the rotor and cables). Somewhere along the way cable discs have evolved into a boutique product, the rest of us are stuck with fantastic hydraulic brakes.
Honestly going for hydraulic brakes on my gravel bike is one of my biggest regrets. Super expensive, a pain to service, easy to blow up, and a surprising number of bike shops don't know how to work on them. Hybrid systems are definitely the best of both worlds.
The sole reason I use metalic pads on my journeys is the possibility of cleaning them. By that I mean blazing them for a moment with a gas stove I use for cooking. Organic pads just cant be fixed once they get greasy, but you can salvage metalic ones and still get home safely.
Kick back coaster brake. Money 💰 style.
I’ve got an old mountain I’ve tried to turn into a bikepacking bike. It’s my everyone not single track bike. It has rim brakes since it’s ‘96. I assume it would be a good idea to have a fresh set of pads if I plan on going on a long multi day trip.
The best V-brakes I have ever had are ProShift brakes. Best mountain bike rim brakes I have ever seen. If you can find a set, grab ‘em! They’re a lot like the Hope of the 90s; all custom CNC machined. I still run them on my Fat Chance Yo Eddy.
Invest in PAUL linear (V) brakes and learn how they function, not too bad. Unreal stopping power for a V-brake, the legends are true. KoolStop pads and you're good to go. I forget that I have vbrakes in back and a disc up front. They are amazing brakes by any standard. Not cheap but I've a set that are ancient, the pink anodizing has faded, but they function like new.
4 pots front, 2 pots back hydraulic brakes best for bikes for xc and a slight trail riding. It will probably work for 90% of riding unless if you are riding downhill Mtb.
Just keep all the cables below the stem and go into the headtube to avoid unnecessary interruption after mounted the handlebar bag. Not only brake cables, you missed out shifter cables for this case. I'm having issue for shifting accuracy, for my case it is a mechanical derailleur, not electronic.
I had my Sram hydro (Guide R model) rear brake go out completely on two big downhills this summer. Could be reactivated by pumping the lever and waiting a bit Due to what? Overheated oil? Air bubbles? Very scary none the less! Had them bled and they worked fine afterward but I can never fully trust them and want to swap over to Shimano.
Out of my experience I now avoid sram brakes for a few reasons one being the very same thing that had happened to you, what's with those brakes? Shimano drive tran and brakes all day every day on all four of my bikes with zero issues. I sure would like for you to get some Shimano brakes real soon so you could get some confidence back in your gear.
Have you tried the klampers before?
Never owned, but have pedaled them around, Logan and Lucas seem to like them. I’m not a fan and they are a bit spendy. For me, It’s hard to go back to mechanical after realizing the ability of a 4 piston hydro.
RIM brakes and tire clearance. Not sure I agree. Prior to disc, mtbs had either c-brakes or cantilevers. In isolation, tire clearance is not the issue.
I really regret not forking out the xtra £350 for hydro brakes vs mech. Unfortunately I'd already pushed my budget as far as I could with the frame etc.
Hyrd
Have you ever considered packing a bleed for a expedition style ride?
6:09 - Yo! Where do I find them dope rainbow spokes? Help a bikepacking brother out.
I have a notion that mineral oil freezes up from about -5 Celsius or colder. I have been thinking of a multiday (at least a week) unsupported bike packing trip in the Himalayas with subzero temperatures. Would you suggest mechanical or hydraulic ? Thanks a ton….😇🙏🏼
SRAM Hydro, it uses are DOT fluid which performs much better in cold temperatures.
Mas péssimo em altas temperaturas.
You're going to be far from bike shops... Does hydraulic really make sense?
@@szurketaltos2693 hmm yeah….that’s always there at the back of the mind. Having used hydraulic brakes for ages, it’s like an addiction where one doesn’t want to let go of hydraulics for mechanicals….😁…..
@@sun27g it might make sense to bring a mechanical set as a spare then rather than a bleed kit.
If you have contaminated metallic brake pads, drench in rubbing alcohol then take a lighter to it. All the contamination burns off or lifts for easy wipe off.
Rim brakes are awesome.
Got the same Magnum look 😄 and juin tech gtf
I've never used anything other than mechanical so I don't know what I'm missing!
Same. Best method. Works also great when it comes to suspension stems and carbon forks.
There are 6 piston too the mightly hope mono 6ti
Semi or resin pads on the front for good initial bite, but metallic/sintered pad on the rear.
On long steep loaded downhills I can feather the rear brake without it fading as they get better with more heat, leaving the front for sharper pulsing when needed for corners etc.
Best to get hydraulic brakes that use mineral oil, such as those from Shimano. Less fuss maintaining than the brakes that need "special" fluids...
Yeah, mineral oil is more common, great point. I should note, mineral stops working when it gets cold. I’ve crashed because the oils stopped working properly at 25F.
@@BIKEPACKINGcom
That's just -4°C. Wouldn't expect them to stop working in such conditions without other factors at work... It's always possible some water might have ended up creeping into the fluid and stopped it from properly moving in those temperatures...
@@87solarsky That is the correct freezing point of mineral oil. I've had shimano brakes freeze in MN winters enough to deter me from winter hydraulics, though now having checked the freezing point of dot fluid I'll likely leave my Levels on this winter.
@@sketchanderase
Here's a qualified article about the matter:
epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/articles/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil
@@87solarsky doesn't discuss freezing point.
This along with the Tire video has been extremely helpful to a bike noob planning a great divide trip. Do you think its worth replacing the mechanical brakes on my brand new fargo with hydraulics if its a trip of a lifetime for me and want to have the most enjoyable time?
First I would ride the bike as is. Then I'd load it down and ride down the biggest steepest hills that I could. If the brakes feel inadequate I'd try increasing the size of the rotors. Other things that will improve the function of your cable disk brakes are higher quality compressionless housing and if applicable I'd machine/file the housing ends flat/square. Bad ends on the housing significantly decreases the brakes performance.
@@mikekrasovec6390 thanks! but I’m a hiker and have no clue what a lot of that means or if as is is enough for the GD. Will try though.
How much is it to replace with good hydraulic set up
Trp spyres are good when finetuned & well adjusted. Theres a Good tutorial on RUclips from an old dude from Great Britain
@@pgreenx I think that you'd probably be fine with what you have. Installing bigger rotors is an easier and cheaper option. Mega expensive wunder bikes are rad. What you have is probably good enough for you to have a good trip without your bike turning into absolute junk. Have a few multi day local trips with what you already have. Maybe your handlebars will need to be further out/closer in or higher/lower, different grips/bar tape, seat... or something. Ride your bike as is. Worry about your contact points. With hiking you want shoes that are comfortable for you as well as a backpack that works for you. Bikes are having the seat and handlebars in the right place, a seat that works for you... I will add that there are lots of different types of handlebars as well as variations of a certain type. Within those variations the bars there are differences in how the bars bend - those differences seem minor but actually make a significant difference after you've spent enough consecutive long days on your bike. Ride the crap out of your bike. Make sure that you feel good on it. Make sure that it's working right when you leave. Know how to do a few simple repairs such as fixing flats.
@@mikekrasovec6390 Thanks. I understand the shoes and backpack thing and done my fair share of miles on foot but want to try biking. Looking forward to my trip next yr
Neil "Jazz Hands" Beltchenko
👐🏻👐🏻👐🏻
Another reason the front rotor is often larger has to do with nature seeking the minimum energy path. I'll spare you the "engineer speak" but, speaking as a structural engineer, it's more efficient for the front brake to take the brunt of it.
Greater than 160 front doesn't make much sense unless you really need the mechanical advantage (downhill MTB for instance). But bigger can actually be better in the rear for long descents! Why? Because of heat dissipation. A bigger rotor dissipates heat better and the rear brake is generally used more for lowering speed.
Tektro Aires if you’re running a light setup and you’re a light rider - $30 with rotors.
Great info! BTW what’s the bike brand and model at 6:24 ?
Looks a lot like the 2021 Kona ULTD
Yep.
Mechanical for ever! They are much easier when I want to change handlebar and all the brake levers and shifters.