I feel like the situation with sonic and elise has a simple solution- just make soleanna a nation full of bird people. The game already has avian imagery throughout, and it would make the world stand out (though the hub worlds would probably need to be less realistic) also maybe sonic could be sent to another dimension instead of dying, and they summon him back with a wish or something instead idk. nice video regardless
Those are actually solid ideas. This kind of just goes to show how relatively easily some of the weirder and awkward parts of the story could be resolved with pretty minor direction changes.
I agree with the first one but i don't agree with the 2nd one becuase the whole reason why Sonic was killed was so that Elise would cry and break iples's seal
0:19 Forces isn’t a high profile flop. It’s just not a masterpiece. Just because the game isn’t amazing, that doesn’t mean that the game is garbage. The sonic franchise has survived for the past 30+ years because the brand-name is just so strong. People love Sonic, and the average Joe doesn’t give a hoot about AngryJoe giving sonic free riders a 1/10. The sonic franchise is probably going to outlive all of us regardless of the quality of games as there’s more to sonic than just video games. The sonic 2 movie making over $400 million proves that. Great video though 👍
Thanks for watching! I think of it as a "high profile flop" mainly because it was aggressively meh at best. It rehashed the Generations thing again, added a CaC that added nothing to the formula, and the plot was completely unmemorable. Even with titles like Unleashed and Black Knight there was at least something that was iterated or built on, or something in the story that kind of stood out, for good or for ill. Forces? Forces exists. It had been 6 years since the last mainline Sonic title and 3 months after Mania, and all it does is exist. And when you reignite people's expectations for the franchise, existing isn't enough.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I understood where you’re coming from. Forces isn’t a dumpster fire glitchfest like 06 or Boom, it’s just mediocre like Lost World. What people forget to realize though is that the price of $40 at least somewhat justified the quality of the game unlike 06 and Boom. And if Nintendo didn’t come up to Sega and recruit a lot of their senior developers to work on Mario Odyssey, then the game would have been a lot better.
Another big problem about the story is the fact that Sonic never interacts with Mephiles. If your main character never has a moment where he/she interacts with the villain, then the writers really messed up.
You know? You're absolutely right. In fact, looking back at it he barely interacts with the story at all. I mean, he does save Elise over and over, but that's just the surface while an entire intrigue and apocalyptic story is playing out around him. "Gotta stop Eggman!" is legitimately the only thing he actual does do.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I honestly really liked Shadow and Silver’s story, they’re not perfect but they were really interesting, but Sonic’s story was atrocious.
You forgot a detail: Blaze the Cat. There’s still the plot hole confusing fans on whether she’s from the future or from the Sol Dimension that I don’t think was retconned yet.
After playing hours of P-06 and seeing a whole bunch of video essays from sonictubers (Pariah), I just cannot see what you come up with as being better than any of what ChaosX made. Like a whole bunch of what you've said was basically fixed within P-06 in some way. Like the Shadow combat is excellent as it is and as cool as the frontier combat is, it wouldn't really fit the linear levels of an adventure game. And Silver might have a single best strategy, that does not mean its any less fun especially if you put all of his abilities to use which is sometimes the best option. Not to mention the speed-runing in P-06 is incredibly fun since you have to get creative with Sonic's gems (Blue and purple being incredibly useful) Shadow's chaos abilities (spear, lance, blast, uninhibited), and Silvers' upgrades. What exactly is it about P-06 that doesn't quantify it as a remake of 06 in yours eyes other than the levels themselves and the assets?
I never said it wasn't a remake. What I said is that I don't think it goes far enough to fix some of the inherent flaws with 06. But let's start from the top; 1. Shadow's combat in P-06 is an improvement, but it's still just mashing A until the thing dies. Besides, the argument that Frontiers' combat wouldn't work in linear levels is weird because outside of the Cyloop everything else with some tweaking could just as easily work within the smaller confines of more traditional 3D Sonic maps. 2. Silver's strategy typically boils down to AoE stun, pick up, throw. There is very little actual nuance in how he plays while that's absolutely fine, the idea of someone with telekinetic powers doing the most basic things with that feels super lazy to me. 3. The speedrunning argument is neither here nor there. Speedrunning by its very definition is an abnormal way to play the game which the vast majority of a player base will not be doing. And besides, just because something is good for speedrunning, doesn't make it good or fun for everyone. I genuinely feel the gems is the most janky power system the franchise has ever had. Finally, I'm not saying what I'm suggesting is inherently better than what ChaosX and co have cooked up. This is mostly me just spitballing ideas for the hell of it. They could actually just be awful ideas, but I like when it raises discussions like this.
@@ResidentGremlin1 Alright what exactly do you mean by inherent flaws? Is it the levels themselves? The other characters and their places in the level? The story I can give you since it was clearly no given the time for any proper rewrites. 1. Shadow's combat is indeed still mashy, however the thing that actually makes it mich more fun and interesting in P-06 over the original is the way the sore works. Its really fun to take advantage of all of Shadow's moves in order to kill enemies without touching the ground in order to keep your score combo going. Instead of all the enemy gauntlets being time consuming and boring, P-06's chaos boost and abilities makes them flow much better and incentives combos which in turn rewards the player with a higher score at the end of the level. The gameplay loop of Shadow makes his S-rank reward that much better. As for Frontiers style combat, I can actually see it working after some thought, though it would mean the enemies have have to have a higher health pool to justify it or they each have to be taken down a certain way in a similar vain to Sonic Heros. Overall this is the best Shadow has ever played as he is not practically a Sonic clone like in SA2, and he basically plays as the Shadow game's opening cutscene showcases him where he's just completely wrecking house. 2. That is the winning strategy for Silver, there are other things you can do of course like using the stage objects from afar, shooting enemies with the psycho shot and knife, or using the Sigil to instantly kill a large group like Shadow's chaos blast. Or you can even just skip a whole section of a level with a powered-up teleport dash. I'm sure there are cooler ways for psychokinesis to work, however as it stands currently it works just fine and more importantly is fun to use, especially for a Sonic game as there is literally no other character that has played like Silver. And again this is the best Silver has ever played, though I'm sure there are ways to potentially innovate the mechanics I'm just not sure how that would look. 3. Not everyone speedruns games or finds the best and fastest way through levels (even if it is a Sonic game that makes it easier to do that), however that doesn't change just how smooth the gameplay is on P-06 among all the characters which enables the fun speedruns. To get a better grasp of what I mean, just watch a video of a P-06 speedrun and see how good it looks. Its like the adventure games but not as broken since all the mechanics are actually intended and not absolutely game breaking (on the current version at least). Also you don't need to be a speedrunner to take advantage of the gems as minus the Red gem and maybe the white, they all have their uses throughout the levels. They are literally some of the best power-ups in the franchise due to the variety they add to gameplay and their versatility. Its cool they are doing something vaguely similar in Sonic Super Stars with the chaos emeralds. You say they should be similar To the SA2 power-ups, but If the gems were like that, what would the button mapping look like since Sonic still has those SA2 power-ups already? The gem leveling up system is similar to that of the Sonic Heros character power cores, the higher level the gem the better and more effective it is and you level them up via chaos drives, light cores (from enemies), and drive capsules. As a final thing to add, if your apparent inherent flaws aren't fixed within P-06, then do you even want the same game at that point? Why bother with remaking 06 if you like basically nothing about it to begin with? Like this is the best a majority of the characters have ever played in 3D period, especially Shadow. Its unfair to call the amigo characters "pointless" when they are fun to play with their reworked and newly added abilities, and P-06 isn't even finished so all of their content isn't even there yet not to mention the extra stuff ChaoX will take liberties on. Other things like the hubworlds and bosses are also out of the question since they have yet to be reworked and added as well. Though I guess with the hubworlds you prefer their absence in SA2 so you wouldn't care for them here anyway. This isn't just my opinion though, you could probably find that out for yourself.
@endosaurus1404 I'm not repeating the points of the video in the comments for the sake an argument. 1. It's the best Shadow has played for sure, but the differences between him and Sonic feel mostly cosmetic. The most unique part of Shadow is inherently designed to trivialise combat. I should say here that this is not shade on ChaosX at all. I have upmost respect for what they've done. The problem is Shadow is a clone character by design. There isn't a lot you can do with a clone character that wouldn't kind of "ruin" the character. 2. Again, best Silver has ever played is not in question. My issue is that, even with the improvements he's still just a bit awkward to play. This is most likely just a me issue. I feel like I'm not getting the telekinesis power fantasy I'm looking for. 3. The gems have their uses, true, however some of them are awkward. Sky and Green for example require you to give up all your momentum for very little gain. As for button mapping, remember 06/P-06 do not use LT, the bumpers or the D-Pad (outside of the gems). There are plenty of options to streamline the power ups. Finally, if I'm honest, I do and don't want the same game. Because what I really want is the Sonic 06 we could have gotten if Sega had just delayed it, rather than trying to force an arbitrary deadline for the anniversary. I want what could have been and, like I said in the video, P-06 is essentially trying to fix the botch job within the confines of the botch job. And they have done an amazing job, but their faithfulness to the original is something I feel is detrimental. Also, the only thing I mentioned about P-06 for the side characters is that it made them all better.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I'm sorry, but I'm now convinced most of these problems are simply the problems you personally have. The part about the gems and even Silver to an extent shows you haven't played the game enough to actually get full use out of them, especially the sky gem and even the green (and that is not speedrunner talk). And then that part on Shadow is just completely ridiculous. Adding unique mechanics and gameplay to a 'clone' character does not ruin the character what the hell do you mean by that? Especially since its established Shadow has and makes use of a plethora of Chaos powers that Sonic simply does not. Even if Shadow's gameplay is more combat oriented, that is still different from Sonic's. That is why Shadow's stages have some higher health enemies, he is combat oriented and it is fun to engage in that combat because of the combo system. That being said are you just completely content with Shadow being a clone of Sonic gameplay with no difference outside of appearance? Shadow was introduced in SA2, but he plays just like Sonic, which isn't a problem there because its an introduction to the character, but beyond that game you're fine with no evolution in gameplay because he has to be a clone character? Its also likely even of they had an extra year of time or so to develop 06, the only real differences would have been the lack of all the glitches. probably a better more refined story, and all of the cut content that wasn't added in retail being in the game now. This theoretical Sonic 07/08 is essentially what P-06 is, except its not even finished yet and there are more things to be added. So alot of the problems you have now might even be dealt with by the end of it's development.
@@ResidentGremlin1You are right about the green gem but 100% wrong about the sky gem. Using the sky gem on a wall give you ridiculous vertical momentum in no time whatsoever, it's one of the most powerful gems in the game. When you use it in the air, you don't have to aim it, you can just throw it without wasting time.
I didn't read every comment on each video you made, but did anyone ever tell you that you should have more subs? Maybe it's the British accent, idk, it only made me a little uncomfortable.
P06… just… P06… that’s my answer
I feel like the situation with sonic and elise has a simple solution- just make soleanna a nation full of bird people. The game already has avian imagery throughout, and it would make the world stand out (though the hub worlds would probably need to be less realistic)
also maybe sonic could be sent to another dimension instead of dying, and they summon him back with a wish or something instead idk. nice video regardless
Those are actually solid ideas. This kind of just goes to show how relatively easily some of the weirder and awkward parts of the story could be resolved with pretty minor direction changes.
I agree with the first one but i don't agree with the 2nd one becuase the whole reason why Sonic was killed was so that Elise would cry and break iples's seal
0:19 Forces isn’t a high profile flop. It’s just not a masterpiece. Just because the game isn’t amazing, that doesn’t mean that the game is garbage. The sonic franchise has survived for the past 30+ years because the brand-name is just so strong. People love Sonic, and the average Joe doesn’t give a hoot about AngryJoe giving sonic free riders a 1/10. The sonic franchise is probably going to outlive all of us regardless of the quality of games as there’s more to sonic than just video games. The sonic 2 movie making over $400 million proves that.
Great video though 👍
frontiers is very poorly recieved, frontiers is highly recieved
both are awful games with tons of issues you can list one by one
@@pyraswolf4263?????
Thanks for watching!
I think of it as a "high profile flop" mainly because it was aggressively meh at best. It rehashed the Generations thing again, added a CaC that added nothing to the formula, and the plot was completely unmemorable.
Even with titles like Unleashed and Black Knight there was at least something that was iterated or built on, or something in the story that kind of stood out, for good or for ill. Forces? Forces exists. It had been 6 years since the last mainline Sonic title and 3 months after Mania, and all it does is exist. And when you reignite people's expectations for the franchise, existing isn't enough.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I understood where you’re coming from. Forces isn’t a dumpster fire glitchfest like 06 or Boom, it’s just mediocre like Lost World. What people forget to realize though is that the price of $40 at least somewhat justified the quality of the game unlike 06 and Boom. And if Nintendo didn’t come up to Sega and recruit a lot of their senior developers to work on Mario Odyssey, then the game would have been a lot better.
@@pyraswolf4263....what???
Another big problem about the story is the fact that Sonic never interacts with Mephiles. If your main character never has a moment where he/she interacts with the villain, then the writers really messed up.
You know? You're absolutely right. In fact, looking back at it he barely interacts with the story at all. I mean, he does save Elise over and over, but that's just the surface while an entire intrigue and apocalyptic story is playing out around him.
"Gotta stop Eggman!" is legitimately the only thing he actual does do.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I honestly really liked Shadow and Silver’s story, they’re not perfect but they were really interesting, but Sonic’s story was atrocious.
My brother in Christ, all we need is Sonichu mode and its good to go.
the timing is crazy
You forgot a detail: Blaze the Cat. There’s still the plot hole confusing fans on whether she’s from the future or from the Sol Dimension that I don’t think was retconned yet.
After playing hours of P-06 and seeing a whole bunch of video essays from sonictubers (Pariah), I just cannot see what you come up with as being better than any of what ChaosX made. Like a whole bunch of what you've said was basically fixed within P-06 in some way. Like the Shadow combat is excellent as it is and as cool as the frontier combat is, it wouldn't really fit the linear levels of an adventure game. And Silver might have a single best strategy, that does not mean its any less fun especially if you put all of his abilities to use which is sometimes the best option. Not to mention the speed-runing in P-06 is incredibly fun since you have to get creative with Sonic's gems (Blue and purple being incredibly useful) Shadow's chaos abilities (spear, lance, blast, uninhibited), and Silvers' upgrades. What exactly is it about P-06 that doesn't quantify it as a remake of 06 in yours eyes other than the levels themselves and the assets?
I never said it wasn't a remake. What I said is that I don't think it goes far enough to fix some of the inherent flaws with 06. But let's start from the top;
1. Shadow's combat in P-06 is an improvement, but it's still just mashing A until the thing dies. Besides, the argument that Frontiers' combat wouldn't work in linear levels is weird because outside of the Cyloop everything else with some tweaking could just as easily work within the smaller confines of more traditional 3D Sonic maps.
2. Silver's strategy typically boils down to AoE stun, pick up, throw. There is very little actual nuance in how he plays while that's absolutely fine, the idea of someone with telekinetic powers doing the most basic things with that feels super lazy to me.
3. The speedrunning argument is neither here nor there. Speedrunning by its very definition is an abnormal way to play the game which the vast majority of a player base will not be doing. And besides, just because something is good for speedrunning, doesn't make it good or fun for everyone. I genuinely feel the gems is the most janky power system the franchise has ever had.
Finally, I'm not saying what I'm suggesting is inherently better than what ChaosX and co have cooked up. This is mostly me just spitballing ideas for the hell of it. They could actually just be awful ideas, but I like when it raises discussions like this.
@@ResidentGremlin1 Alright what exactly do you mean by inherent flaws? Is it the levels themselves? The other characters and their places in the level? The story I can give you since it was clearly no given the time for any proper rewrites.
1. Shadow's combat is indeed still mashy, however the thing that actually makes it mich more fun and interesting in P-06 over the original is the way the sore works. Its really fun to take advantage of all of Shadow's moves in order to kill enemies without touching the ground in order to keep your score combo going. Instead of all the enemy gauntlets being time consuming and boring, P-06's chaos boost and abilities makes them flow much better and incentives combos which in turn rewards the player with a higher score at the end of the level. The gameplay loop of Shadow makes his S-rank reward that much better. As for Frontiers style combat, I can actually see it working after some thought, though it would mean the enemies have have to have a higher health pool to justify it or they each have to be taken down a certain way in a similar vain to Sonic Heros. Overall this is the best Shadow has ever played as he is not practically a Sonic clone like in SA2, and he basically plays as the Shadow game's opening cutscene showcases him where he's just completely wrecking house.
2. That is the winning strategy for Silver, there are other things you can do of course like using the stage objects from afar, shooting enemies with the psycho shot and knife, or using the Sigil to instantly kill a large group like Shadow's chaos blast. Or you can even just skip a whole section of a level with a powered-up teleport dash. I'm sure there are cooler ways for psychokinesis to work, however as it stands currently it works just fine and more importantly is fun to use, especially for a Sonic game as there is literally no other character that has played like Silver. And again this is the best Silver has ever played, though I'm sure there are ways to potentially innovate the mechanics I'm just not sure how that would look.
3. Not everyone speedruns games or finds the best and fastest way through levels (even if it is a Sonic game that makes it easier to do that), however that doesn't change just how smooth the gameplay is on P-06 among all the characters which enables the fun speedruns. To get a better grasp of what I mean, just watch a video of a P-06 speedrun and see how good it looks. Its like the adventure games but not as broken since all the mechanics are actually intended and not absolutely game breaking (on the current version at least). Also you don't need to be a speedrunner to take advantage of the gems as minus the Red gem and maybe the white, they all have their uses throughout the levels. They are literally some of the best power-ups in the franchise due to the variety they add to gameplay and their versatility. Its cool they are doing something vaguely similar in Sonic Super Stars with the chaos emeralds. You say they should be similar To the SA2 power-ups, but If the gems were like that, what would the button mapping look like since Sonic still has those SA2 power-ups already? The gem leveling up system is similar to that of the Sonic Heros character power cores, the higher level the gem the better and more effective it is and you level them up via chaos drives, light cores (from enemies), and drive capsules.
As a final thing to add, if your apparent inherent flaws aren't fixed within P-06, then do you even want the same game at that point? Why bother with remaking 06 if you like basically nothing about it to begin with? Like this is the best a majority of the characters have ever played in 3D period, especially Shadow. Its unfair to call the amigo characters "pointless" when they are fun to play with their reworked and newly added abilities, and P-06 isn't even finished so all of their content isn't even there yet not to mention the extra stuff ChaoX will take liberties on. Other things like the hubworlds and bosses are also out of the question since they have yet to be reworked and added as well. Though I guess with the hubworlds you prefer their absence in SA2 so you wouldn't care for them here anyway. This isn't just my opinion though, you could probably find that out for yourself.
@endosaurus1404 I'm not repeating the points of the video in the comments for the sake an argument.
1. It's the best Shadow has played for sure, but the differences between him and Sonic feel mostly cosmetic. The most unique part of Shadow is inherently designed to trivialise combat. I should say here that this is not shade on ChaosX at all. I have upmost respect for what they've done. The problem is Shadow is a clone character by design. There isn't a lot you can do with a clone character that wouldn't kind of "ruin" the character.
2. Again, best Silver has ever played is not in question. My issue is that, even with the improvements he's still just a bit awkward to play. This is most likely just a me issue. I feel like I'm not getting the telekinesis power fantasy I'm looking for.
3. The gems have their uses, true, however some of them are awkward. Sky and Green for example require you to give up all your momentum for very little gain.
As for button mapping, remember 06/P-06 do not use LT, the bumpers or the D-Pad (outside of the gems). There are plenty of options to streamline the power ups.
Finally, if I'm honest, I do and don't want the same game. Because what I really want is the Sonic 06 we could have gotten if Sega had just delayed it, rather than trying to force an arbitrary deadline for the anniversary. I want what could have been and, like I said in the video, P-06 is essentially trying to fix the botch job within the confines of the botch job. And they have done an amazing job, but their faithfulness to the original is something I feel is detrimental. Also, the only thing I mentioned about P-06 for the side characters is that it made them all better.
@@ResidentGremlin1 I'm sorry, but I'm now convinced most of these problems are simply the problems you personally have. The part about the gems and even Silver to an extent shows you haven't played the game enough to actually get full use out of them, especially the sky gem and even the green (and that is not speedrunner talk). And then that part on Shadow is just completely ridiculous. Adding unique mechanics and gameplay to a 'clone' character does not ruin the character what the hell do you mean by that? Especially since its established Shadow has and makes use of a plethora of Chaos powers that Sonic simply does not. Even if Shadow's gameplay is more combat oriented, that is still different from Sonic's. That is why Shadow's stages have some higher health enemies, he is combat oriented and it is fun to engage in that combat because of the combo system. That being said are you just completely content with Shadow being a clone of Sonic gameplay with no difference outside of appearance? Shadow was introduced in SA2, but he plays just like Sonic, which isn't a problem there because its an introduction to the character, but beyond that game you're fine with no evolution in gameplay because he has to be a clone character?
Its also likely even of they had an extra year of time or so to develop 06, the only real differences would have been the lack of all the glitches. probably a better more refined story, and all of the cut content that wasn't added in retail being in the game now. This theoretical Sonic 07/08 is essentially what P-06 is, except its not even finished yet and there are more things to be added. So alot of the problems you have now might even be dealt with by the end of it's development.
@@ResidentGremlin1You are right about the green gem but 100% wrong about the sky gem. Using the sky gem on a wall give you ridiculous vertical momentum in no time whatsoever, it's one of the most powerful gems in the game. When you use it in the air, you don't have to aim it, you can just throw it without wasting time.
Sonic P-06 exist you know?
did you watch the video past the 1 minute mark?
And it's fun, don't get me wrong. But there are things that just updating graphics and stablising framerate cannot fix.
@@ResidentGremlin1 and the story and the hubworld
17:55 dude you are SO LAZY
Great video, commenting for algorithm
I didn't read every comment on each video you made, but did anyone ever tell you that you should have more subs? Maybe it's the British accent, idk, it only made me a little uncomfortable.
Chili dogs!
Also, good title 👍
19:26 okey the last one dosen't count becuase she turn herself in