The Great Arcade Debate: CRTs Vs. LCDs
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2022
- arcadeheroes.com - Ever since LCD panels became an affordable option for consumers to grab, people have been yanking out the old tube CRT monitors and putting LCDs in their place. Sometimes, that includes people like myself who operate an arcade. Why do we do that and should we do that? Let's get into it.
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I'm sure there's zero market for it--but it would be cool if they made 4:3 convex curved OLED monitors with a built in CRT filter to emulate the CRT look as much as possible.
Yeah, that'd be fantastic. As far as I understand, emulating the CRT look is extremely hard to do and also only begins to make sense at 4K resolution or higher (apparently, 8K is where it becomes hard to distinguish from the real thing), as the subpixel artifacting and all that cannot be accurately reproduced otherwise.
Unico makes a 4:3 lcd flat panel arcade replacement screen. It's not curved but it's still something.
You make a great point about input lag never being a thing back in in the 80s and 90s. I still remember the first time experiencing input lag, it was while trying to beat Mike Tyson in Punch Out. Glad to hear the games don’t make any less if they are LCD.
Oh man, the memories of that fight in Punch Out *shivers*
Crt for the win
On your Simpsons, that curved image at the top is your B+ pot adjustment. If it doesn't straighten the image, it needs to be replaced. I really enjoyed your video. While LCDs have their place, as long as CRT's can continue to be repaired, they should be the staple. The biggest issue we will have over the next few years, is not so much the lack of parts, but the color guns dying which is the end of the line for these old dinosaurs. I've started to hoard as many tubes as I possibly can to have backups for my games.
If you put a fresnel lenses in the front glass area, and mount an LCD about halfway into the cab, you can simulate the CRT effect. Works even better if you can simulate scanlines. The monitor area between the LCD and the lens needs to be pitch black with no light bleed from, or into other areas, however.
THIS???
I remember reading about something like this on a community forum awhile back and the idea was to use a kind of black glass to hide all the noticeable details. I may have also suggested the idea of mirrors like some of the older cabinets, but that didn't seem to fly well as that method eventually faded.
This was super interesting, thank you! At 10:20 ish I'm not sure that's how lightguns work on CRTs. I could definitely be wrong here, my understanding is that the arcade board sets the screen to all white at the start of a new frame, and then starts to monitor the photosensor in the lightgun as it times the raster beam. When the sensor is registering a spike (I am guessing here, but it might just be looking for a voltage transition across a threshold) the board knows from the predictable timing of the beam what line and position on that line it was at, with some probable additional extra work to improve precision. The WII introduced an IR based lightgun method, which I would be surprised if LCD based lightguns don't use some method of.
I believe that's correct on how CRTs & light-guns work. On the IR gun method the Wii uses, Nintendo borrowed the idea from arcades, as you did have those DLP-based DLX games from the late 90s/early 00s which used the IR sensor net concept (Wii also borrowed the gyro controls tech Konami used in several games). If there was a way to install something over an LCD to make the game think it was a CRT though, that would be a great solution
@@arcadeheroes_coinop I didn't realise the arcades had Wiimote-like guns first! I feel like there must be a way to convert the two (assuming you know the X/Y of the pointer) by listening to the video signal and making the gun signal go high (or low) at the right time, I have a horrible feeling it would be so machine specific that nobody will ever do it as there would be no money in it. But maybe one day...
I also feel hiding this in a reply is safe from the CRT obsessives, I actually prefer my LCD monitor with fake CRT look to the real thing. 🤫
Appreciate the content! It's so nice to see arcades surviving as my local one closed 8 years ago.
I converted my Bomb Jack game over recently & it had a jittery shakey picture afterwards. I fixed it today by putting a 680 ohm resistor in series with the sync wire(s). Works great now. I got the 10 resistors off ebay for $1.99.
Super informative.
One point in favor of LCD or LED monitors for me is reducing the electricity the cabnetets use. This means lower power bills but also more cabinets that I can run on a circut without tripping a fuse.
I just bought a Stargate and a Tempest cabinet, both with perfect CRT monitors.
So happy with the find! Now I have a horizontal and a vertical screen.
I will outfit them with Game Elf 750 in 1 and 420 in 1. (Horizontal and vertical play)
I have tried the LCD with Raspberry pi, Game elf and Pandora's box.
The verdict: don't even bother.
If you're going to do that, buy an NES console with arcade cassettes.
You will save a lot of money and get a better experience.
CRT! forgot to ask you about use of fresnal lenses and mirrors in arcade machines. I seem to recall them being used in my youth but didn't have the vocabulary to understand what I was seeing. also some games had extra 3d effects within the screen (like the original space invaders) and other special effects that emulation hasn't been able to duplicate (like the big flashy explosions in Terminator 2). "artwork" is the closest we have gotten in mame. people who play the emulated versions or arcade 1 ups don't know what they are missing and will think arcade games were crappier looking than they actually were in their heydey! (a bit like silent movies that are sped up, dirty, and missing their soundtracks before full restoration).
That is an interesting subject, although it kind of falls outside of the CRT/LCD debate. I do miss that manufacturers use such things to enhance the experience and do something cool with the image, since that's something you can only do in an arcade environment, not consoles.
The Space Invaders effect was done using a half-silvered mirror and placing the monitor inside of the cabinet flat. Since you could see just the monitor image bouncing off of the glass, seeing a backlit landscape behind that was a really cool effect. Other games that did something like that included Asteroids Deluxe, and Wyvern F-0 (although the latter used two monitors in a kind of setup like that to create a unique 3D effect).
You also had games like SubRoc 3-D where it used a stereoscopic 3D effect; Space Tactics and Danger Zone where the monitor literally moved around; Starblade where it did use one of those fresnal lenses and so on. It'd be really cool to see that kind of thing happen again with a new title!
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Turkey Shoot contained a fan that would blow actual feathers up into the air and around the screen when you blew up a bunch of enemies (mutant turkeys). then there was that UFO game.. wacko? that had an actual toy plastic flying saucer that moved around "behind" the video game screen image too... very odd (and awesome!). nowadays you're lucky if there are flashing lights on the cabinet (more common with those hydraulic/motion machines). I saw a new-ish game once in our state that had waterguns that you sprayed AT the screen (the game had a moldy smell, but you were squiring a plexiglass shield that protected the electronics).
For someone like me who has been collecting and repairing original cabinets for 40 years I would state that CRT will always be the required monitor for classic games. Specifically due to the games being colored, shaded and coded for these monitors. LCD and LED monitors have to high resolution too many colors to generate the proper shading for old games so they look distorted. If you are a true arcade game collector. No LCD or LED monitor should ever be converted in a cabinet with a original CRT monitor it devalues the cabinet. Its not about if you like it or not its straight fact it looks far worse for older games.
The look of a 4X3 arcade games converted to a LCD is just jarring to me, especially on bigger 25" and up games like Gauntlet Legends. I'd probably be more comfortable with the idea if the conversion/upscale kept the aspect ratio in mind, but pretty much every LCD conversion I see in the wild has the image stretched out to 16X9, which is just like.. ugh. It's good to hear an operator's perspective though and that earnings aren't affected. Also, now you've got me freaked out--you mentioned some won't even service Neotec CRTs. I have an Atari Primal Rage that has a Neotec in it, and it's starting to get a little flaky. 😅
Sorry to make you bite your nails there :P Granted, my experience was circa 2010 so one of the current guys might be fine in looking at it, especially if it was a more common NT model. I think the one I had was among their last ones so it was hard to come across.
I agree about the 4:3 to 16:9 stretching. I'm not that picking about latency in most games, but when circles aren't round and enemies move at different speeds vertically vs horizontally, I really can't stand it. I just refuse to put money in.
Mind you, I blame the RGB to digital converter for that. Most have a setting to preserve the ratio. The arcade op could always hide the black portion of the screen behind a bezel. It's amazing how many people complain about letter boxing.
Hey AH....s bit late to this video but just wanted to say great video, very informative.
A few comments....
Have you considered doing a video on OLED displays, and how they compare to CRTs? After doing some research and eventually purchasing a 77" OLED TV, I have to say, they are a much better alternative to LCD monitors. The LG 77" I bought is the C1 line, and after making some tweaks with HLSL in MAME, I have to say, I've gotten my retro arcade games to look darn near *indistinguishable* from a CRT display.
The main thing with OLED is the on and off black levels in contrast, as well as a new feature in LG TCs called BFI, which eliminates the motion blur found in LCDs and delivers a picture, in motion, that basically mimic a CRT virtually 1:1.
People are really starting to talk about these OLED TVs as the best TVs for retro gaming. So, what are your thoughts on OLEDs and do you think they'll eventually be hailed as the "Arcade CRT killer"?
Thanks! As to OLED, I haven't seen any 19"-27" OLEDs out and about there which might work, although I imagine that they are out there (well, someone told me that they are looking into 4:3 19" OLEDs for arcade use but haven't heard if they've progressed far on that yet). I love my Switch OLED and of course have had it on phones so it does seem like the tech is there - we just need the right sizes
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Appreciate the reply. Apparently LG is rumored to announce a 27" OLED into their C-series line some time next year. Guess we'll see what happens but very exciting times nonetheless :)
Keep up the great content my friend.
Understand this i have a 6 in one jamma arcade and it has mk 1 2 U3 an 4 plus a couple of others so getting the colors and screens right was a challenge but its not to hard to go to crt to led understanding
I am rebuilding an original Dragon's Lair and was able to source one of Wells Gardner last CRT. You just can't beat that old school feel nor can it be replicated with an LCD.
I have an RCA CRT TV now my settings are as fallowed
Color: 50
Brightness: 60
Contrast : 100
Sharpness: 25
I know CRTs for the home weren’t identical to the ones used in the arcades
But are my picture settings close to what you would see in the arcades ? Or do I need to raise or lower some settings on my CRT TV to get it as close to what an arcade CRT monitor would be like
I am old fashioned I guess, but I refuse to use an LCD on a classic game unless it's one I'm selling. It's CRT or bust for games in my personal collection.
CRT are history. I was happy scrapping mine decades ago for some first gen LCD. No way back. And i like very much those big sharp pixels un filtered.
Astro City 2 is actually relatively rare, compared to the regular astro and new astro city cabs. I have some parts for the regular astros, not sure what you were missing? If you still have the cab hit me up.
Unfortunately I don't anymore but it did go to a good home and that guy was able to fix it :)
The biggest thing i have going against LCDs after lag is the aspect ratio, Most Arcade Operators don't care about having a 4:3 image, having it stretched simply looks like crap, then of course there's poor installation, an LCD conversion should never involve cutting up your cabinet.
Working on CRTs is relatively safe as long as you're literate enough on how they work.
Please sell the broken monitors, don't scrap them.
I don't mind LCD's, as long as they use something better than the GBS-8220 (non GBS Control modded) for the video encoder. For games like Batrider (Like I heard in your background), the two frame of input delay can be the difference between life and death.
We gonna have lcd's that can mimic crts pretty well.
The biggest problem with CRTs in my opinion is the painful high-pitched sound they make (also hearable in this video). I wonder if that's also a reason young people seem to avoid them.
Don't worry, soon you won't be able to hear it anymore.
Love crt's but they're turning to dust.
Only used or if you're lucky nos parts available. Yay i found a new in box replacement flyback that is 20yrs old😖
You had mentioned an overseas company that emailed you about new crt replacements. Can you post information about that?
Edit. Saw a post below saying it was Alonex Electronic Engineering. However, the website doesn’t offer product information or contact emails. Can you post the sales email address?
There's Alonex but the emails also mentioned a 2nd company, "PRAFTEC Microcomputer Technologies." Funny enough, I just got an email from them this morning, although it comes from a gmail. The Praftec sales email appears to be info@praftec.com the gmail is frishman.natalia@gmail.com -
Good luck, everyone I've asked so far says no one ever replies
@@arcadeheroes_coinop thanks for the lead. I'll give it a try.
CRT and all the tech surrounding it was way more robust and superior visually. I think the last CRT monitor manufactured by Sony (I forget which model, go look it up) is a sought after item on the market. New "LCD" technology is greatly more fragile, expensive and complex. Sometimes technology seems to go backwards and forwards at the same time.
Eh not really. As far as robustness goes, a 42" LG OLED is far and away the best arcade cabinet monitor you can get. It's nothing but options. Mount one in a cabinet vertically and you effectively get a 4:3 screen the size of a 29" CRT as well as a huge 3:4 vertical screen for shooters etc. That's robustness.
The only real advantage CRTs have over modern displays is motion clarity, but the way they achieve motion clarity is bad (flickering), so it's kind of a wash. What we really want doesn't exist yet (a 1000hz display that basically has CRT like motion clarity without the flickering). CRT geometry flat out sucks, the flickering is annoying, resolutions supported are typically too low, and the higher resolution CRTs tend to be too small, you can't run modern games on them properly, and ironically, with PC emulation setups, CRTs actually have more end to end lag now than variable refresh displays because CRTs are always stuck with vsync lag whereas VRR displays aren't.
It really depends on the use case. For most people, having a bunch of different cabinets doesn't really make sense in a world where you can have a single machine that runs virtually every arcade game and Guilty Gear Strive, Street Fighter 4/5, etc.
OLED 480P adequate .
@@youtubesuresuckscock this a great option to go oled, also thank for the work you do on the MAME project.
@19:17 'Apart from the one Company still making Tubes' umm please who are they?
Unfortunately it was a Chinese company claiming to make them but the website & contact info they provided didn't go anywhere :/
Its a myth that crt have zero lag. By industry standards of measuring they actually have 8.6ms of input lag in the center of the screen. Lcd have been there for 60hz for decades. Above 60hz lcd take over for better input lag. At 120hz there are lcd monitors with less than 5ms input lag.
True love letter to CRTs By the way i think the response time of CRT displays is about 0.5 ms while OLEDs are down to 6ms.
Overtime, let's say within ten years I hope affordable flexible OLEDs will allow us to build quality 4:3 CRT display replicas.
Those stretchy OLEDs stuck on a thick curved glass will do the trick as there are also a very recent rise of good CRT filters !!
Unfortunately UNICO USA ran a campaign to build their own custom built 26" 4:3 LCD displays at $550 each but they didnt hit the minimum units required for the first batch.
Both of those numbers are really high. Modern OLEDs have more like a 1ms response time. Some LCDs have been able to manage 2ms since the mid 2000's, though 16ms was more common. CRTs though, the only time for a color phosphor to react is while the electron beam is pointed straight at it. For a slow, low-res 15KHz display that manages only only about 320 transitions per line (think pixels) the electron beam is only pointed at the phosphor for 1/(15,000 * 320) seconds or 0.0002ms. (dang)
Now, "response time" is not the same thing as "latency". The definition is the time between when the system tries to draw an image and when the image is visible. For digital, in simple terms, the system sends a data stream with all the color info for the screen. The screen (LCD or OLED) has to receive the stream, often the *entire* image, then do math to resize and blend pixels if needed, do math to apply color correction, do math to translate the requested colors to the voltages for each sub-pixel on the panel, and drive the panel. A digital TV may have so much latency that it has to delay audio to keep lip-sync in movies. Half a second is not uncommon. You will notice the "game" or "PC" setting on the screen may knock the latency down below a tenth of a second, but at the cost of nearly all color correction and resizing. (worth it here)
For classic arcade boards, adding the RGB to (DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort) only makes this worse, as the entire picture has to be captured before it can be sent. So we start with a one frame latency. Emulation wins here.
CRTs? The voltages coming out of the game *literally* drive the electron guns. The sync signals directly drive when the electron beams start the next line or go back to the top. Color correction is nothing more than adjusting resistors attached to the signal amps. Latency is just the time it takes electricity to flow a few feet, then electrons to cross the tube.
(Personal opinion) I honestly think we can get LCD/OLED latency down near CRTs, but to do this we will have to take the transmission (DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort) out of the system and have the game board drive the panel directly. That's a tall order in today's market. We're most likely to see this in a handheld.
You don't need 4:3 displays. You can just mount a 42" LG OLED in a cabinet vertically, which basically gives you a ~27" 4:3 screen with the added bonus of being able to run vertical games with a huge image.
It would simulate a 25.7 inch flat display with weird bezels. This is indeed better than nothing but would look awful in a curved japanese candy cab. The OLED era has just started and printed OLEDs will give us hopes for better more suitable screens.
@@SP95 It wouldn't have a weird bezel. You just make a normal bezel to put over it, and I'm not talking about candy cabinets. I'm talking about actually making a cabinet.
CRT all the way for retro games. Playing on LCD/LED looks awful most of the time, as the image is too sharp and you can see every pixel. Releasing retro games on modern systems should not only come with a scanline option (most do), but also a filter to recreate that natural fuzzy look, which hides the low resolution. I have seen some games do this, but the vast majority don't bother with it.
This doesn't apply to real boards, but with an emulation setup, a fast variable refresh gaming monitor is actually going to have less input lag than a CRT, because you always have to eat vsync lag with a CRT emulation setup whereas with a variable refresh setup with one of the new LG OLEDs etc. you're essentially getting vsync off latency.
You know I scratch my head at the arcade purest that gripe & moan about these things. They like to see things through rose tinted glasses that arcade owners cared deeply about such things in the past. Unfortunately that was never the case in reality when machines broke down they had to repair them with whatever parts were available that were "good enough" especially if said parts were hard to come by. I've seen mismatched joysticks (and other controllers), monitors, frankenstien/custom cases, etc.. If they had LED (or OLED) screens like today they would use them.
Also back then the vast majority of arcade players wouldn't give two Fs about it as long as they just got to play the games unless it was a gimmick cab (Like Space Harrier for example). With lightgun games the issue is there is tech to make light gun games work on LCD/LED, but someone needs to create conversion kits for them. Unfortunately there is not a big enough customer base to make enough money unless they charge a ridiculous amount.
In my town we had a Aladdin's Castle that had a Ninja Warriors in a custom made cab cause the original one was too big. On the other side of town at Silverball they had the new MK3 machine, but in a different generic looking custom gray cab with a 32" screen with the controller that was a foot away from the screen (look like a J from the side). In the early 80's it would be 90% all original parts, by the mid 80's that dropped to around 65%, but by the late 90's it was less than 50% with only new arcades being pure until their first break down at least.
My absolute favourite CRT Monitor for making my own arcade cabinets was the "Wells Gardner D9800 27" a beautiful beast.
90% of games CRT. but some games, like san fran rush 2049, look perfectly fine on LCD.
Yeah some late 90s early '00 games make the jump rather well - others, not so much. The shape/size of the monitor sometimes affects that too
Whatever gets u to play the game!
Playing old retro games looked better on CRT. It usually looked better when playing in 4:3 ratio. It doesn't look good on widescreen. Most retro games doesn't look good on a 24 inch monitor when setting on stretch screen, especially when playing close to the monitor.
As an owner of a home built pc multicade, i didn't really see crt's as an option. MAME has some pretty good scan line and mask filters that along with adding some curve and defocusing to the pipeline really create a pretty good CRT effect. Even though the games are low res, having a high res monitor allows better "CRT Effects". With GSync/and Freesync, you no longer need to worry about refresh rates or vsync issues. If there was a market for it, maybe somebody could create a plug in module to add analog effects to converted lcd arcade machines.
Am looking into building myself an arcade cabinet, but struggling to choose the right monitor for it, there are so many options, what would you recommend (I am thinking 27inch would be ideal size)?
@@davidplunkett5645 I have a 32".Remember that some games were designed for vertical oriented 4:3 screens and may look small on a horizontal monitor. The other thing to consider is resolution. With emulators, you want to use integer scaling. So if the original game is 320x200, it should be scaled to 640x480, 1280x960, 2560x1920 etc. If you don't do integer the games won't be pixel sharp. Higher resolution will also allow for better visuals with scan lines and other monitor affects available in mame. Finally, another thing to consider is a monitor with gsync or free sync, and a graphics card to support it. Many old games run at odd refresh rates and you may not get perfect timing with your monitor. So lots to consider, and research for you.
@@GetOffMyyLawn thanks for this, out of interest which make/model monitor do you have? Will have a look for gsync/free sync.
@@davidplunkett5645 I have an old LG 32" 32MA70HY-P . If were shopping today, i would look at the LG 32GN650-B and similar.
For 240p sprite based stuff it’s hard to argue LCD is better.
Its very hard for me to play on lcd.I am old about it.A crt is must or no gaming for me lol.
When i use the correct crt shading i get pvm quality image on my tablet, but with more alive colors.
crt`s are dead.
no one is arguing for putting crts in a tablet, but no one willing to spend the money wants anything but a CRT in their original arcade cabinet
It would be nice if a display manufacturer were to create an LCD which was curved like a CRT strictly for the purpose of emulating an old glass CRT specifically for arcade machines
with fake scanline/rgb effect options too! they would sell a lot of those in the next few decades as collectors need to replace their's
OLED 480P square , adequate .
What? No they haven't. I've never seen an LCD monitor in an arcade cabinet that should have a CRT in it, ever. Everyone knows the CRT is far superior for 15khz games.
No they haven't what? Not sure which part you're responding to.
As far as I’m concerned there is no substitute for CRT arcade monitors to play classic arcade games.
I don’t care that LCD’s are safer, lighter, less power usage or cost less because they look like crap in comparison so useless as far as I’m concerned.
Yes for an arcade operator I can imagine they would prefer LCD’s to make more profits but as soon as the CRT arcade monitor gets swapped that arcade is dead to me period!
As far as I've observed, retro gamers at large don't come in and play anyways as "I already have the games at home." Thus we see no difference in earnings between a CRT and LCD game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I totally understand as an arcade operator and I would do the same if I was an operator but I’m only seeing it from the eyes of a CRT enthusiast and it saddens me they are being phased out being they are no longer being produced by anyone.
@@azrabain8210 Unfortunately for the couple of Chinese companies popping up claiming to make new ones, it appears that they don't live up to the claims :/
If LCD’s were available in the 80’s I would have played on those machines 100% of the time over CRT’s with their warped view. It’s just nostalgia and people reminiscing about the good old days. Just like I prefer to game now on a Vewlix cabinet so I can sit down and relax and spend time playing the games instead of standing up.
for competitive retro gaming (say smash bros, or speedrunning) a lagless monitor is essential to be honest
that doesn't have to be a CRT these days, but it isn't just nostalgia for everyone
if the original arcades had been on LCDs there would have been no argument because they would have been the original display hardware they were designed for. the original "look" of those games can't be achieved today without either using a CRT or simulating a CRT display on some other type of display. modern people playing "pixel art" on their hdtv or an arcade 1up don't remember the originals well enough to care I guess (or are playing on a super small screen like a phone). some of those people actually say that seeing "jaggies" is a mark of quality & authenticity. smh then again some people are nostalgic about VHS (and got shocked to suddenly see the same films with "graininess" on HD formats). when widescreen tv's were coming out, most people I knew who had them were still watching 4:3 content on them but stretched out because the "black bars" seemed "wrong" them. again smh. yeah, you can still follow it, but it looks so much better as original intended...
Pros and Khans lol 5:36
CRT if you have the experience and are a collector. LCDs for operators. Most customers won't care, and it makes maintenance easier for operators