Excited to see this analysis! Played River City Girls 2 and can definitely attest to bad input lag though it was somewhat improved by the fact that I played on PC with high refresh. This should be part of all of your game benchmarking (at least for any kinds of rogues, FPS, and games with quick time events)
And especially when reviewing retro game re-releases. It has to be compared to the original in order to determine if it is a faithful port (or more likely an accurate emulation). Accuracy in emulation isn't just about looking or sounding right. If the original game had a sub 30ms of input latency and the modern re-release is around a 100 or worse this shouldn't be considered a good port. Sadly very few retro compilations successfully pass this simple test.
Response time is extremely important for a game. I usually can't stand 30fps but because of the low latency of the controls I actually played through the entire Starfield on Xbox without problems (and I bloody loved the game, in your face haters!😅)
First time I noticed input lag was when playing The Warriors on PS3 (which was emulating) or PS2 emulator. I just couldn't get the lock picking right without triggering the alarm and when I played on PS2 as a teenager I 90% of the time got it right. It was not that difficult without that huge input lag.
And why the hell nobody talk about input lag in elden ring or dark souls. Elden ring in particular has terrible input lag i can see it with my bare eyes
I once saw somebody refer to the input lag in Dark Souls and Elden Ring as being by design. An intrinsic part of the difficulty level of the game itself. This video is more about Input lag that can typically be overcome with better hardware, or with specific settings configurations. Thus, this video is about the user's choice of hardware affecting the difficulty level of the game, creating variations from player to player.
@@jameswatson5807 One becomes "super human" by playing low input lag games of a similar enough type. You develop a "sensitivity". A sophisticated palette regarding video games. This generally is a result of a very competitive nature which pushes one in the direction of e-Sports where such is studied as a "science". It becomes important as to which controller is in the Player 1 port.
@@marvinmallette6795 That is hardcore 😁, my TV is a Panasonic plasma my brother had a old Samsung LCD TV but with the plasma he said he could tell the plasma TV was slower. But I did not take him serious, because I thought 30 milliseconds that is to quick to notice. You must have super human levels on concentration to feel 30 milliseconds from 16 milliseconds.
@@jameswatson5807 To some it may seem that way. 16ms is 60 FPS. Given you press a button on one frame, and see the results on another, you are talking about up to 32ms of input lag. It seems to be more noticeable when focusing on "background" or distance objects in motion. Mouse tracking has extremely high levels of precision, and requires a higher refresh rate and lower input lag. More competitive games, or more difficult games with extremely tight margins for parries, counters, and/or dodges, can stimulate one's concentration. Frame rates above 60 FPS are desirable. I generally don't notice rates above 75 FPS or 80 FPS, but that would still be less than 30ms. 20ms is extremely tight, and I probably wouldn't notice anything less than 20ms, unless it negatively affected the game. Inversely, I would struggle to achieve 20ms, and anything more sensitive would be nigh impossible. I like to pick on Jedi: Survivor in 2024. It is a game that on Grand Master difficult has a 30ms window for parries and dodges, with 120ms-500ms of input lag around Rambler's reach. On lower difficulties the game seems to provide a 60ms to 120ms timing window. I'm actually too aggressive for a 120ms timing window, inputting too many controls and expecting more immediate feedback.
Interesting topic. I have always been intrigued with input lag. Back in 08-09 i was obsessed with MW2 and having the lowest input lag possible, that I went out and purchased a 55” Panasonic Plasma G series display and man best gaming experience I ever had all the way up until my recent purchase LG C1. For a 21-22 year old that boy was that Panasonic expensive lol.
i can tolerate maybe around 20ms of input lag, anything more and things start to feel a little sluggish. Trying to play anything off the cloud feels horrible, and I have gigabit internet.
Playing off the cloud does feel terrible. Video compression I think is my biggest concern, despite having 300mbps down. 30 FPS frame rates are not pleasant either. Especially when streaming 30 FPS video content. Injustice 2 was atrocious when streaming from the cloud. I've only recently upgraded to a 1080p display, so perhaps higher resolutions might offset video compression issues? I didn't go so far as to test my ping times, or to really push the limits of the input lag. I paid more attention to input lag when using Steam Link on the LAN. I would assume the input lag would be lower when directly connected. Some games are playable. Stray was downright enjoyable, and Final Fantasy VII Remake was not an unpleasant experience.
@@Akkbar21 No. I haven't used Standard Definition since the SNES. I'm a PC gamer. My CRTs have generally been "HD" and high refresh rate. A 4:3 1280x1024 is higher than 720p, and the monitors I used typically went up as high as 1600x1200 @ 60Hz. But I've been using 1440x900 (16:10, 900p, 75Hz), since about 2009.
And that's why some people keep resisting the hype of retro compilations and criticize them despite being called party poopers and killjoys by nostalgic gamers who seem just happy to buy just a name and memories and not a well optimized game with tight controls. Those compilations are almost always plagued with medicore to very bad input lag. And you don't need to feel it to be affected by it, many people who claim not being bothered by lag or not sensitive to it would be surprized how better they'd be doing in those games if the input lag was in check. Even if you can't tell through your senses a few milliseconds (and we're more talking like dozens of extra ms of lag compared to the original games) can make all the difference between a successful jump, a dodged bullet, hitting your opponent first or a dropped combo. Most of the 16 bit era games gameplay were designed on low input lag setups. When you double or triple it (or even worse, like said in the video Megaman 2 on the good old NES, 25ms of lag, and a feakin' 115ms on Switch! This is a TERRIBLE job from the devs) like many retro compilations do, even if you cannot really tell the delay just by pressing a button it WILL impact your performance and overall experience. So far M2 seems to be the only retro dev studio that really puts some work into optimizing the input lag of their games so they play just like the originals.
I am considering letting go of my copy of Tekken 3 finally. Tekken 8 is the first game I would consider as a worthy replacement. I have Tekken Tag Tournament 2 on the XBox 360, but the problem is that I never use my XBox. I'm not going to compare Tekken 8 to Soul Calibur 2. I am not going to choose one franchise over another.
The launch version of Bloodstained Ritual of the Night was one of the worst I had ever seen. That felt like at least 500ms of latency on Switch. Thankfully, it got patched.
Please do a Tech analysis for It Takes Two game, it's an amazing multiplayer game. I hope John do a review of this game with the guy from My Life In Gaming and play the game together I can assure you will really love it.
Isn't that a couples' game? That is the main reason I haven't picked it up. It is harder to find a pair to play "husband and wife", than to find a random couch co-op buddy. I can't imagine It Takes Two being anything but awkward.
you can use overlay for tekken it unlock framerate and then you can for example lock fps to even 200 getting flat 5ms frametime render and it won't make game faster you just gonna see more frames and then every movement is more fluid very good for us Lee mains
Im having 10-30 ms on average every game on pc with nvidia reflex , im talking about average pc latency . In comparison consoles are still extremely laggy , to the piont where you feel a difference.
The "Metal Slug Anthology" for PS4 feels like it has at LEAST 150 ms latency, maybe even 200. Such amazing games but an absolutely broken version that was never fixed :-(
Would really love to see comparisons between PS5 and Xbox Series for MLB The Show. Any of the top players will tell you the Xbox Series version has significantly better timing windows/input delay when batting with Zone interface hitting(guessing same for other hitting methods)
I do remember one of the versions of pinball fx having a good amount of audio lag and inout lag. I had to turn on exclusive audio in windows settings and make sure vsync was off.
I’ve been playing Street Fighter II and all it’s variations since it came out. I have a supergun and the original CPS1/2 boards hooked up to a CRT. Any other version for me - and trust me I do have many across various systems - and I can feel the lag. Once you start pulling off extremely hard combos which button accuracy is crucial, then you can notice/feel the lag, you somehow feel something is not right. The Sega Saturn versions with the 4MB memory cart are 90% close to the arcade boards versions, it’s very difficult to tell them apart. More people and especially industry folks need to start paying attention and putting in some effort when it comes to minimizing input lag.
If tekken 8 has 40ms lag so should i bother to choose between 1ms monitor or 5ms monitor bcoz afterall the game will take 40ms to show me execution of move so either 1ms or 10ms lag of monitor doesnt make any difference !!!
Don't trust labels. Stuff like "1 ms monitor" doesn't mean basically anything. Instead look for actual reviews that measure response times, overshoot and input latency.
I would love seeing this method being tested on 8000hz mice and keyboards vs 1000hz. In theory one can calculate the difference, but I have yet to find anyone to feel any difference - even on 500+hz screens with 500+ FPS.
IIRC, "input" is referring to user-input. The "input lag" metric describes the total amount of time that it takes for you see the game respond to your input. "Input" is not describing device input.
Because the moment of input is your reference point which you measure against ... from input to output. And yes, you could also call it output lag at this point but, the thing is: You always measure from something to output, so output is the one common factor for all kinds of lags in video games.
"Output lag" negatively affects your ability to react quickly, causing a lag in your inputs. The delay then further delays the visual feedback on the impact of your inputs, making it more difficult to correct mistimed or other errored inputs. Output lag implies that input response is not time sensitive. It is merely a "buffer" for streaming content. A delay between a video feed over old fashion coaxial cable, vs streaming through an online service. Input lag, invokes the point of concern, the item you are measuring. Typically, it is about measuring reflexes. With less input lag, you can hone your reflexes to a tighter margin of error.
Hating someone so bad for using a specific console you resort to homophobia for no reason. You must have a very miserable day to day life to be a person like this.
SSD has no effect on input lag whatsoever. I get about 8-12ms on PC with proper settings, whether that game is on SSD or HDD. Faster SSD is gonna reduce texture and LOD pop in as well as "loading lag." How to reduce input latency: Increase framerate, frame buffer solution has a +/- effect depending which (or none) is used, Vsync/Async/FastSync have an effect and so does Nvidia Reflex.
I guess nobody sent you the message that the console wars were always dumb, and have been utterly pointless for over a decade because the consoles are nearly identical, also that whole thing of Sony and Microsoft both publishing their games on PC
![Megan Thee Stallion - Mamushi (Remix) [feat. TWICE] [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5c0_u9PsrsQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Excited to see this analysis! Played River City Girls 2 and can definitely attest to bad input lag though it was somewhat improved by the fact that I played on PC with high refresh. This should be part of all of your game benchmarking (at least for any kinds of rogues, FPS, and games with quick time events)
And especially when reviewing retro game re-releases. It has to be compared to the original in order to determine if it is a faithful port (or more likely an accurate emulation). Accuracy in emulation isn't just about looking or sounding right. If the original game had a sub 30ms of input latency and the modern re-release is around a 100 or worse this shouldn't be considered a good port. Sadly very few retro compilations successfully pass this simple test.
Response time is extremely important for a game. I usually can't stand 30fps but because of the low latency of the controls I actually played through the entire Starfield on Xbox without problems (and I bloody loved the game, in your face haters!😅)
First time I noticed input lag was when playing The Warriors on PS3 (which was emulating) or PS2 emulator. I just couldn't get the lock picking right without triggering the alarm and when I played on PS2 as a teenager I 90% of the time got it right. It was not that difficult without that huge input lag.
And why the hell nobody talk about input lag in elden ring or dark souls.
Elden ring in particular has terrible input lag i can see it with my bare eyes
I once saw somebody refer to the input lag in Dark Souls and Elden Ring as being by design. An intrinsic part of the difficulty level of the game itself.
This video is more about Input lag that can typically be overcome with better hardware, or with specific settings configurations. Thus, this video is about the user's choice of hardware affecting the difficulty level of the game, creating variations from player to player.
You must be a bit super human, too se it so easy or the game input lag is really bad, but that might be the console.
@@jameswatson5807 One becomes "super human" by playing low input lag games of a similar enough type.
You develop a "sensitivity". A sophisticated palette regarding video games.
This generally is a result of a very competitive nature which pushes one in the direction of e-Sports where such is studied as a "science". It becomes important as to which controller is in the Player 1 port.
@@marvinmallette6795 That is hardcore 😁, my TV is a Panasonic plasma my brother had a old Samsung LCD TV but with the plasma he said he could tell the plasma TV was slower.
But I did not take him serious, because I thought 30 milliseconds that is to quick to notice. You must have super human levels on concentration to feel 30 milliseconds from 16 milliseconds.
@@jameswatson5807 To some it may seem that way.
16ms is 60 FPS. Given you press a button on one frame, and see the results on another, you are talking about up to 32ms of input lag.
It seems to be more noticeable when focusing on "background" or distance objects in motion. Mouse tracking has extremely high levels of precision, and requires a higher refresh rate and lower input lag.
More competitive games, or more difficult games with extremely tight margins for parries, counters, and/or dodges, can stimulate one's concentration.
Frame rates above 60 FPS are desirable. I generally don't notice rates above 75 FPS or 80 FPS, but that would still be less than 30ms. 20ms is extremely tight, and I probably wouldn't notice anything less than 20ms, unless it negatively affected the game.
Inversely, I would struggle to achieve 20ms, and anything more sensitive would be nigh impossible.
I like to pick on Jedi: Survivor in 2024. It is a game that on Grand Master difficult has a 30ms window for parries and dodges, with 120ms-500ms of input lag around Rambler's reach. On lower difficulties the game seems to provide a 60ms to 120ms timing window.
I'm actually too aggressive for a 120ms timing window, inputting too many controls and expecting more immediate feedback.
Interesting topic. I have always been intrigued with input lag. Back in 08-09 i was obsessed with MW2 and having the lowest input lag possible, that I went out and purchased a 55” Panasonic Plasma G series display and man best gaming experience I ever had all the way up until my recent purchase LG C1. For a 21-22 year old that boy was that Panasonic expensive lol.
i can tolerate maybe around 20ms of input lag, anything more and things start to feel a little sluggish. Trying to play anything off the cloud feels horrible, and I have gigabit internet.
Okay mr l33t gamer
Playing off the cloud does feel terrible. Video compression I think is my biggest concern, despite having 300mbps down. 30 FPS frame rates are not pleasant either. Especially when streaming 30 FPS video content. Injustice 2 was atrocious when streaming from the cloud. I've only recently upgraded to a 1080p display, so perhaps higher resolutions might offset video compression issues?
I didn't go so far as to test my ping times, or to really push the limits of the input lag. I paid more attention to input lag when using Steam Link on the LAN. I would assume the input lag would be lower when directly connected. Some games are playable.
Stray was downright enjoyable, and Final Fantasy VII Remake was not an unpleasant experience.
@@marvinmallette6795 upgraded to 1080p? You still rocking a SD CRT all these years?? You’re the one! Haha
@@Akkbar21 No. I haven't used Standard Definition since the SNES.
I'm a PC gamer. My CRTs have generally been "HD" and high refresh rate. A 4:3 1280x1024 is higher than 720p, and the monitors I used typically went up as high as 1600x1200 @ 60Hz.
But I've been using 1440x900 (16:10, 900p, 75Hz), since about 2009.
@@marvinmallette6795 but you’re using exclusively CRT monitors? Damn. That’s hard core. To each their own I suppose.
And that's why some people keep resisting the hype of retro compilations and criticize them despite being called party poopers and killjoys by nostalgic gamers who seem just happy to buy just a name and memories and not a well optimized game with tight controls. Those compilations are almost always plagued with medicore to very bad input lag. And you don't need to feel it to be affected by it, many people who claim not being bothered by lag or not sensitive to it would be surprized how better they'd be doing in those games if the input lag was in check. Even if you can't tell through your senses a few milliseconds (and we're more talking like dozens of extra ms of lag compared to the original games) can make all the difference between a successful jump, a dodged bullet, hitting your opponent first or a dropped combo. Most of the 16 bit era games gameplay were designed on low input lag setups. When you double or triple it (or even worse, like said in the video Megaman 2 on the good old NES, 25ms of lag, and a feakin' 115ms on Switch! This is a TERRIBLE job from the devs) like many retro compilations do, even if you cannot really tell the delay just by pressing a button it WILL impact your performance and overall experience. So far M2 seems to be the only retro dev studio that really puts some work into optimizing the input lag of their games so they play just like the originals.
Under Night goated once again
It's a better game than Tekken 3 or Soul Calibur 2. T8 is the 3D GOAT.
FAX
Tekken 8 is a fantastic game
Music wise T8 cannot compete with Tekken 3
I am considering letting go of my copy of Tekken 3 finally. Tekken 8 is the first game I would consider as a worthy replacement. I have Tekken Tag Tournament 2 on the XBox 360, but the problem is that I never use my XBox.
I'm not going to compare Tekken 8 to Soul Calibur 2. I am not going to choose one franchise over another.
@@marvinmallette6795 Tekken 8 just like tekken 7 looks to much like street fight with the moves, when you look at tekken 3.
Under Night 2 did all that but didn't fix the online.
That and launching alongside Tekken 8 were big mistakes by Uni dev team
Input lag from inattentive players caused many friendly fire casualties in Helldivers 2.
The launch version of Bloodstained Ritual of the Night was one of the worst I had ever seen. That felt like at least 500ms of latency on Switch. Thankfully, it got patched.
Please do a Tech analysis for It Takes Two game, it's an amazing multiplayer game. I hope John do a review of this game with the guy from My Life In Gaming and play the game together I can assure you will really love it.
I agree but this wouldve been relevant a few years ago. Love the game, i wish there was more like it.
Isn't that a couples' game? That is the main reason I haven't picked it up. It is harder to find a pair to play "husband and wife", than to find a random couch co-op buddy. I can't imagine It Takes Two being anything but awkward.
I swear that sometimes we forget video games are an INTERACTIVE MEDIUM first and foremost.
Dang, ketsui stays winning. I know there was a reason why it's my favorite shmup
you can use overlay for tekken it unlock framerate and then you can for example lock fps to even 200 getting flat 5ms frametime render and it won't make game faster you just gonna see more frames and then every movement is more fluid very good for us Lee mains
Yep, it's an amazing tool, I used it a lot during T7. But do be warned that you will never be able to play without it anymore lol
@@tidjane2001 yes when you try 120 or 180fps then when coming back to 60 it's night and day difference
Im having 10-30 ms on average every game on pc with nvidia reflex , im talking about average pc latency . In comparison consoles are still extremely laggy , to the piont where you feel a difference.
The "Metal Slug Anthology" for PS4 feels like it has at LEAST 150 ms latency, maybe even 200. Such amazing games but an absolutely broken version that was never fixed :-(
“Super Mario bros 3 on NES with 24 milliseconds of leg”
-John Linnemen, 2024
Meanwhile on PC we've got HL2 with 0.8ms :D
I play fighting Games, Input lag is my primary concern.
I got so pissed at the Wii U version of TEKKEN TAG 2 that I destroyed the disk 😂
Would really love to see comparisons between PS5 and Xbox Series for MLB The Show. Any of the top players will tell you the Xbox Series version has significantly better timing windows/input delay when batting with Zone interface hitting(guessing same for other hitting methods)
I have never seen an analysis over 4k transfer rate on the ps5. -2 is definitely more responsive.
What does Pinball FX have?
I do remember one of the versions of pinball fx having a good amount of audio lag and inout lag. I had to turn on exclusive audio in windows settings and make sure vsync was off.
I’ve been playing Street Fighter II and all it’s variations since it came out. I have a supergun and the original CPS1/2 boards hooked up to a CRT. Any other version for me - and trust me I do have many across various systems - and I can feel the lag. Once you start pulling off extremely hard combos which button accuracy is crucial, then you can notice/feel the lag, you somehow feel something is not right. The Sega Saturn versions with the 4MB memory cart are 90% close to the arcade boards versions, it’s very difficult to tell them apart.
More people and especially industry folks need to start paying attention and putting in some effort when it comes to minimizing input lag.
If tekken 8 has 40ms lag so should i bother to choose between 1ms monitor or 5ms monitor bcoz afterall the game will take 40ms to show me execution of move so either 1ms or 10ms lag of monitor doesnt make any difference !!!
Don't trust labels. Stuff like "1 ms monitor" doesn't mean basically anything.
Instead look for actual reviews that measure response times, overshoot and input latency.
What's the lag on Remnant II?
Why only tekken
I would love seeing this method being tested on 8000hz mice and keyboards vs 1000hz.
In theory one can calculate the difference, but I have yet to find anyone to feel any difference - even on 500+hz screens with 500+ FPS.
1000hz and 1000fps on a CRT with OLED blacks, would be insane for gaming
Why is it called input lag? Why don't we call it output lag or don't differentiate the input part of the lag and output part?
Output lag manifests in your TV or display
english is not even my main language and I can tell why is called "input" lag... c'mon now lol.
IIRC, "input" is referring to user-input. The "input lag" metric describes the total amount of time that it takes for you see the game respond to your input. "Input" is not describing device input.
Because the moment of input is your reference point which you measure against ... from input to output.
And yes, you could also call it output lag at this point but, the thing is: You always measure from something to output, so output is the one common factor for all kinds of lags in video games.
"Output lag" negatively affects your ability to react quickly, causing a lag in your inputs. The delay then further delays the visual feedback on the impact of your inputs, making it more difficult to correct mistimed or other errored inputs.
Output lag implies that input response is not time sensitive. It is merely a "buffer" for streaming content. A delay between a video feed over old fashion coaxial cable, vs streaming through an online service.
Input lag, invokes the point of concern, the item you are measuring. Typically, it is about measuring reflexes. With less input lag, you can hone your reflexes to a tighter margin of error.
exceptionally important for casuals? nah, not really
RDR2
RAGE 2, at least on PS4 (no idea about Xbox One, PC, PS4 Pro etc) has big input lag
Gaybox series x fanqueers experience the worst input lag 😂😂. Running everything on a slower SSD has a big play.
Hating someone so bad for using a specific console you resort to homophobia for no reason. You must have a very miserable day to day life to be a person like this.
SSD has no effect on input lag whatsoever. I get about 8-12ms on PC with proper settings, whether that game is on SSD or HDD.
Faster SSD is gonna reduce texture and LOD pop in as well as "loading lag."
How to reduce input latency: Increase framerate, frame buffer solution has a +/- effect depending which (or none) is used, Vsync/Async/FastSync have an effect and so does Nvidia Reflex.
@BluesAdam the gaybox fanqueers are the reason why gaming has become greedy.
you sound like a 13 year old child
I guess nobody sent you the message that the console wars were always dumb, and have been utterly pointless for over a decade because the consoles are nearly identical, also that whole thing of Sony and Microsoft both publishing their games on PC