most people who just install hyprland from the repos and have probably never heard about any community (like me) are crawling from under a rock and being like "wut? who's this?" and 15 minutes later they forget about the whole thing
@@guyblack9729 it was a surprisingly nuanced video. Brodie did a great job staying out of the politics of the situation. The great part of free software is that it's free. You can do whatever you want with it. Unfortunately the community is full of cry bullies that will try and ruin someone over politics.
@@currentsubset6885 Not unless you only use it to talk to your friends and dont go into any public servers/groupchats thats how it is with all social media
Just one example, but ReiserFS. Just got dropped from the kernel, was unmaintained for years due to Hans Reiser's association with it and nobody wanting to touch it or be associated with it. It's not the only project that has died directly because of its association with their lead devs either.
@@JmbFountain I said it wasn't properly maintained because of Reiser's association with it. The same can absolutely happen to hyprland, where other devs won't want to work on or with hyprland. I'd kind of be surprised if someone didn't fork hyprland in the wake of the now 3rd incident involving the hyprland community.
@@kienanvellaAny fork would be pointless unless it's someone that will devote their full time to developing it and is as skilled as Vaxry, because Hyprland was and still mostly is a one man project. This isn't like PolyMC where the one person contributing the least was left.
It makes zero sense to have developers running chatrooms. I personally would not want to be responsible for any kind of internet mass communication channel in any way, shape or form.
I've been involved with an OSS Discord bot project, and for the project to be allowed to run, it's literally mandatory it has an associated server... 😅
Yes, I think he will respond diff when he hits 40yrs. Imagine caring if a child throws a tantrum! I say what I want and to hell with the complainers. Complainers will complain.
@@arnavgrover4631 toxicity is what those who call people snowflakes demonstrate to us every day. They whinge about everything from Easter eggs not having the word Easter on the box, to OTHER PEOPLE wearing hijabs, to OTHER PEOPLE kissing and loving people with the same genitals as them. The minute someone forces someone not to celebrate Easter, or to wear a hijab, or to kiss someone with the same genitalia as them, or to state their own pronouns, I’ll be the first to say this is wrong. Until then, those who throw around the word “snowflake” should show some respect. Get to know a woman, a transwoman, a gay man, a Muslim, an Afro-Caribbean, or something. You may just find they’re not so great a threat to society as you thought. As for bigotry, we’re not too far from the 100th anniversary of a very good demonstration of the threat bigotry poses to society.
So that´s why I don´t get what´s even going on. I´m 50 and don´t even understand the who/what/why here. I understand this much: It´s drama and something about gender. Look. It´s rather simple. If someone identifies as a toaster, I will still like or dislike them for what they do, not what they are. How hard can it be? I´m born in a different world than kids of today. But that doesn´t mean I can´t use my brain.
It's slow as shit on sandybridge gpu. Sway runs fine while also using wlroots. And yes i did disable background blur and all the other unnecessary performance hogs
I don't care about the politics either, I just love using hyprland. I got into it because of Brodie and now he's not using it I feel so betrayed but I forgive him. 😂
"This is going to be the first of many situations where the FOSS ecosystem is going to deal with the fact that there is a lot of people that you do not agree with." Didn't we already learn this during the vim/emacs wars, the UNIX wars, the incessant "I use Arch btw" plague, Elastic doing its licensing games, RedHat pissing off its own CentOS base, Redis doing its licensing things, etc. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head xD. EDIT: Systemd vs init!! I knew I forgot one.
from what i can understand, the FDO saw what Vaxry said in the hyprland discord and didn’t like it, so they banned him from talking in FD channels (GitLab, IRC)
Because he still has contributed to fdo projects and other fdo project contributors reported him to the coc team. And they are saying this is not acceptable behaviour in our space no matter where its said given public statements
Multiple fd.o members talked to moderators about how they feel uncomfortable with Vaxry in the fd.o space because of how he acts in public and in his own Discord server. An fd.o moderator reached out to Vaxry to share this and advised him to avoid such actions in the fd.o space (particularly wlroots' GitLab and Matrix). Vaxry melts down and doxxes the officer, so fd.o proceeds to ban him as a response.
The outcome of this will be interesting. Hyprland is currently the best tiling compositor, and I don’t think anyone is wanting to fork it, so vaxry is going to probably continue being a major player in the space.
@@ImperiumLibertasyeah I foresee a bunch of 'protest forks' but with the amount of work done on hyprland which is by vaxry himself I highly doubt they will go anywhere
There's no discord drama. There are just people with issues that find an issue with something that was already discussed and making it an issue. Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first.
@@cutiepielonely "Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first." I have no idea what anything in this sentence means, so I'll politely agree...
@@CEOofGameDev Freedesktop forum "code of conduct" moderators have mastadon posts that violate freedesktop "code of conduct", so I am implying they should apply it to themselves. Just look at the irony, "Free" desktop where you cant speak as you wish outside in your life without them governing you. Just to be clear, freedom of speech isnt an excuse to use slurs or offend minorities. But that didnt happen. Linux isn't super popular to be gatekeeped or to ban valuable contributors just because of these fascists. They should ditch Linux and create something else if they think they shouldn't use software made by problematic people because Richard Stallman has good amount of contribution. TLDR This isnt simply an issue of childish dev acting entitled. Varxy can sure be dislikable but banning people that can actually improve wayland(wlroots) for silly discord reasons is very childish at best and maybe fascist at worst. Linus already warned us about getting politics involved with gnu.
@@CEOofGameDev CoC is I belive “Code of Conduct”, “Madtadon” is a typo for Mastodon - the “Patreon but serious (?)” No idea what “fdf” or “fox themselves” means. Would be thankful for any input xD
Actually, I like being able to hop into a project specific discord and ask casually for advice from other users, I find it super handy. It's like an actually good version of LLM's... asking other people.
I couldn't care less about how 'nice' the people who develop the software I use are, that said I don't use Hyprland and if I had to choose between it or an interchangeable project where both meet my needs, I would go with the one with the 'nicer' developer/ community. That said, contribution bans should be used on people that try to sabotage/ add malware/ backdoors to the project.
I would go with the community that uses free software to develop the software (i.e. Matrix instead of Discord, Codeberg instead of GitHub, Weblate instead of Crowdin, etc.).
You know it's a controversial issue when Brodie's "opinion" is to make up your own mind. Just speculating though, I think he at least mildly disagrees with banning Vaxry from the FDO.
Certainly, even someone who doesn’t have to try to maintain a non biased stance (for this example, someone who doesn’t care either way) has their opinion leak into their coverage or telling of the events.
I disagree with the ban as well. Mostly because escalating to a ban seems a bit premature. It was definitely where he was headed towards though. The FDO person (I can't remember the spelling for my life) should have sent a more professionally worded reminder noting that his emails so far are written like a temper tantrum, calming down that this is just a Warning and nothing else will happen, that this is just the FDO sending him a Warning as a sort of notification of their stance on the matter and that this email chain should focus on the topic at hand. From there if the behaviour continues have it escalate to a 1 month timeout (or a 1 week one if we want to just be symbolic) based on the fact that he can't seem to behave professionally when interacting with folks from the project, and from there to a 6month-timeout or ban. At least for as "light" an infraction as this was. (Also of course make it clear that this is the escalation chain he's headed towards in the interest of open communication). Its sort of an "everybody sucks here" situation but imo Vaxry's reaction blew this out of proportion.
I actually just gave Hyprland a go for the first time and absolutely loved it, had no idea this was going on LOL I don't really feel either party was being very mature, but I also feel that insulting someone's pronouns is not a good way to get anything done, or good humor. For me, I think that because of how this all started, I'm simply going to take this as more evidence that Discord is not worth your time, and let it go. This in no way needs to get this heated, and it's just gonna escalate. We must learn to let things go, and let folks get back on the right track to learn from their mistakes.
Having done all my research already and looking at all sides of the different angles. I think it's a two-way street. The email needed a couple of revisions for tone, and Vaxry read things that really weren't there or implied by those emails. From there it just escalated. Honestly I feel sorry for him. I've been in his position before. I surrounded myself with some terrible people and I was having life issues irl too. It really just warps your judgement completely and it makes you do and say dumb s***. I eventually did a couple of really terrible/dumb things and thought it was justified bc of my surroundings. Seeing meaning in things that really weren't written or implied or was too vague to cast judgement on. Then escalating it and causing a s***storm like this one. I was lucky I still had ppl to talk me down and make me come to my senses. I hope he can too.
I also feel the other side did not show their best side. Everyone can see this is a person that is in over his head. If they were trying to escalate, get him banned and bring the project down I can't see what they would have done differently.
@gusvanwes6192 yeah, I agree, but that's what you get when there is already bad blood. Justified or not. Edit: it's not a takedown or a hit. It just looks that way bc of all the drama it stirred up.
@@shockwave3318 You sure about that? Because it kinda seems like they victim stack gang got a coc used against someone because it couldn't cope with the other existing, and neither could shut up. Why wasn't the other person banned then? Oh wait... a they/them can't be the opressor and be held to their own standards. I'm not saying either side was good.. but look who got taken down, and was targeted first.. because you know darn well that if CoC talked to a they them about its lowsy behavior, it would be cries & accusations of oppression.
I think it's entirely reasonable to request he be professional in his communications around the project. Nobody is arguing on that point. What is not okay is trying to subvert an open source project because the maintainer wouldn't be forced into using preferred pronouns. Additionally, using a red hat email and not clarifying the "we" in "we will take action" seems purposefully deceitful. But that's just my opinion. I understand those email addresses aren't endorsements.
@@BrodieRobertson The subreddit is primarily about news and discussion, so we let it stay up. But I will say in my near year of moderating the sub, this had been the most heated thread by far.
In 66 years iv'e noticed that the people that have issues with what you say are just people with issues. I mean you are very civil in you language and as nice as you are, and people have issues with what you say are the very people I'm talking about. Very level headed. IMO
While I do agree this is often the case I do believe there are some situations where people complaining about what one says have some merit to their request
Varxy is also just kind of a rude dick whenever he replies to anyone, so I don't like him as a person on that basis. Still gonna use hypr tho Cus it's pretty epic
It may be childish, but the one of the consequences is that a person who contributed good code to multiple FOSS project won't be able to anymore. Sure, it's just a one person, but if that becomes a trend, it may be really bad for FOSS, given how much we need contributors. For many smaller projects, one contributor less is a big difference.
@@kuhluhOG I mean Vaxry. Imagine if every FOSS project just banned every contributor with opinions and behavior that project owner don't agree with. You would probably be surprised how big part of world's FOSS code is written by tankies, racists and even worse people. And I see no problem with it as long as the code is good, free and open-source.
i agree that hyprland does not need a discord. It would prevent alot of drama and allow vaxry to focus on coding and keep his opinions out of the spotlight. Also this will keep happening. polymc vs prism launcher, hyprland and it's fork etc. the one thing opensource is good at is forking when a dev doesn't like something. And it would be good if everyone could be tolerant of each others ideas, but that is not going to happen with modern tribalism. view projects like how you view content creators, and try not to harass people for having different opinions. the block button exists for a reason.
I mean, free software and open source *is* inherently political. But this particular instance doesn't even have anything to do with politics. Just someone being a dick.
As I understand it, "fairly good" in Aussie is "incredible" in Amercian English. That is, a step above "not bad" and just a shade below "Vegemite-grade."
"Due to your users are mostly assholes, we've decided it's easier to ban your entire social network, known as X, as Twitter, as etc. Sincerely, your internet police."
As a non-binary hyprland user for now I am going to keep using hyprland until something better for my use case comes along. If hyprland continues to be the best for me I will continue to use it. Possibly avoiding the discord because it is not needed. Not that discord trolls concern me I have been in the hyprland discord with my pronouns in my user name and only discussed hyprland. That being said I would prefer people not to be dicks
Honestly at this point I think the wayland standalone compositor ecosystem is kinda not getting any better. When I decided to switch to Wayland I was shocked with how few options are available, and how many are one burnout away from being abadoned. The development burden is just too great for lone devs/small groups
@@excidium_ you finally found out the reason that wayland exists. i'm proud of you :-) I was excited for wayland too before I found out that they coded away ways around their own protocol to sabotage per-window-isolation just for convienence and for copy-and-pasting to exist. just another burdensome project that had a great thing going for it in the beginning DITW from RH
It is as follows: the edgy teens on vaxry's discord were mean to a person in their server but that person turned out to be part of the foss lgbt clique, and the situation escalated to important people of that clique which got hyprland booted from contributing to freedesktop
The issue is you can't easily 'not interact with FTO'. If this was a smaller project that wasn't in charge of everything this would be way more acceptable.
@@BrodieRobertsonhow can we contribute to standardize freedesktop portals and other stuff without it tho? Just YOLO with that "wayland is not ready APIs guy"?
@@BrodieRobertson I'm not sure you understand what the FTO does (considering you seem to referencing it as 'code). Not being able to submit to it is significantly harmful both to Hyprland and to Vaxry. Vaxry in the past has made numerous important contributions (tearing, cursors, more), no longer being able to do that means that Hyprland now no longer has a say in what happens to the Linux desktop as a whole. It's not good to understate the control that the FDO has over the linux desktop. As I said, it's not just any project.
I read Drew's initial blog post, and wasn't convinced by it. In fact, I don't agree with Drew's politicis. And yet, I use Sway as my daily driver. I would use Hyprland too, if it ever got to work on my machine. I don't care about either developer's politics, and I'm pretty sure most people don't. We have got to stop these purity tests being forced on the community!
The people who are puritanical in this community seem to believe themselves free speech and free expression advocates. Why give a shit about how people represent themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of speech? Why care about how they express themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of expression? It’s a shame how people think that they are advocates for freedom when they’re the ones who are restricting other’s rights.
Is there anything that would cross the line for you? Would you feel the same if a developer was convicted of mass murder? I'm not comparing Vaxry's actions to murder, I'm just trying to say that for most people, there exists a line SOMEWHERE. If you agree, then it's just a subjective opinion of where that line is, and you can probably understand if other people draw the line differently than you do.
@@backpackvacuum9520 Nope, none at all, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the dev, it's a matter of practicality and using what works best for me. Why would I hurt myself just because I don't agree with him? I can understand wanting to hurt him in the most primitive senses, but wanting to hurt yourself sounds like mental illness and you should probably consider help. It's FOSS, you're not hurting him in any shape or form by not using the software. This isn't like speaking with your wallet in a capitalistic environment. If the project ends up dying because he's jailed that's a whole different issue though. But the reason I'd stop using it is because the project died, completely irrelevant to what the dev did.
@@DDracee chosing to use the product or not is completely different from FreeDesktop choosing to associate with him or not. The first is gaining utility from a free product by an individual, the second is (to some degree) stating your approval of the developer and linking your reputation with theirs. Like it or not, software is about people, and if a dev isn't treating their users like people, then that's bad. It doesn't mean you can't use the software if you want to, but it means that other developers might not want to give you their stamp of approval.
@@backpackvacuum9520 The OP was talking about personal use and you never insinuated otherwise. But on that topic I'd agree that it's different, but not in the way you worded it. Using controversial software is not a statement of approval. But you do run the risk of inheriting that controversy so it can be judged to be a good PR decision to avoid that altercation altogether. That said, this still has no effect on the dev of the controversial FOSS project. He'd be developing that software regardless. Note that Freedesktop/RedHat do have financial and legislative motives despite being FOSS. In the case of a project with no such motives, the question remains the same. Why hurt your own project just because you don't agree with who wrote the code? If that code makes the project better, there's nothing else to talk about. I cannot wrap my head around the concept of needing to adhere to someone's philosophies when using something they made. There's absolutely no logical sense to this.
Who cares? Someone who takes time to edit someone's bio by abusing their power. This whole drama could have been so easily avoided if they really didn't care.
Yep. If he actually "didn't care" this wouldn't have happened. They cared enough to fuck with someone about something they knew is important to that person. That was a deliberate choice.
My views are pretty much the same to what someone posted with minor disagreements. "Is Vaxry a nice guy? No. Is Vaxry a very young, arrogant and opinionated adult? Yes. Are Vaxry's blogposts a problem? Yes, exchanges like these are very unsavory. Is the Hyprland discord community toxic? It kind of is. (though this is very complicated, It's not all that clear as people are making it out to be). With all of that out of the way, I think anyone who has read Lyude's emails and thinks this is fine is a bit insane. To me this whole thing is basically bully vs. bully. However one bully is just a kid with zero wisdom/life experience & the other bully is representing a big organization & is trying to rally support to their cause in a very political way that really shouldn't ever occur in any serious work environment, open source or not. To me it seems like some folks at the FDO decided that they strongly dislike Vaxry (I can get this part, since he is not a very likeable guy) for various reasons & then decided to give him the middle finger in a really ill prepared and juvenile way." They should have acted better given their station lol. Warning my ass, what they gave was essentially a big "We are gonna ban you because some members complained about what your community has done years ago" They didn't send a warning to see if he was gonna improve, they sent a notice as a way to provoke an reaction. I could smell the passive-aggressiveness of that letter coming miles away.
Even if I believed he was a racist bigot (I don't think they are, a little childish maybe I didn't find the jokes funny), I would still use the code there are a lot of people I don't like that make great products that's just how it is ( I don't know them at all so I neither like nor dislike them) eg. if you are using a lithium battery it doesn't mean you agree with how they are made etc etc. Banning someone for their alleged views is imo the antithesis of being open and free.
This wasn’t about views…. This was a stupid joke attempting designed to upset people. That not an opinion. Everyone is free to shut up and ignore how other people see themselves. It is stupid to have opinions about how other people see themselves. It isn’t your choice. Just shut up and ignore it.
I find it disturbing that a person is so fragile that a 2/10 insult can cripple their entire existence. Maybe a little push back is an important service, we all get it in life.
@@tomverlaine728 Maybe it’s not up for you to decide how much it matters to someone else. Probably worthwhile to mind your own business rather than being mad about someone else’s feelings.
@@dereknelson6980 Keep on crying, People getting upset about some words, is just plain ridiculous. We should try to become normal again, and get rid of the crybaby woke stuff.
I think a lot of people would be surprised at how many people in the FOSS world are much bigger assholes and much worse crybabies than any of the people involved in this matter. The difference is that most of them communicate through more professional means than an unmoderated discord server. It also shows the perils of letting engineers communicate instead of PR personnel.
@@unpotatoedsalmon wait, this guy didn’t even make a statement, he abused his privilege because he thought it would be funny to intentionally upset someone that he deemed lesser. Don’t confuse discourse for being a dumbass bully.
As a trans woman, I find my kind's newfound obsession with "preferred pronouns" actively detrimental to trans acceptance in every way. It further promotes the idea that we are different, that we are the dreaded Other-particularly when combined with such overblown outrage over the most diminutive deviation from our demands. What do we accomplish, brethren and "allies," by forming virtual lynch mobs and going after people over every little gaffe and jest? Is this your idea of "justice?" It certainly isn't mine. How can anybody say with a straight face that a mild prank is more toxic than trying to intimidate and harass someone into submission? Even the trite and tenuous perennial argument-that, by using a product, you're subsidizing someone's alleged bigotry-doesn't hold water here, because this is FOSS; if any of you need an echo chamber that badly, make your own fork and don't let any of the icky knotsees work on it. Oh, but that wouldn't provide much of a dopamine hit, would it? This is nothing more than a struggle session. It has nothing to do with the project, it has nothing to do with the code, it is no more and no less than a gaggle of goons attacking someone for wrongthink purely to aggrandize themselves. The hyperpoliticized screeching that's come to the FOSS community since 2016 has not resulted in better software. It has not resulted in better communities around that software. it has only served to provide malignant narcissists with yet still more power that they are fundamentally unfit to wield. People, it's time to *stop enabling narcissism.* Far too many people, for far too long, have attached themselves to FOSS projects with the sole goal of proclaiming their own importance. *These* are the bad actors who must be excised from the community-not a handful of people hanging out on the Discord server for a project so obscure that it doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page. If the very concept of FOSS hinges on the idea that it's "free as in free speech," then free speech must be preserved within the FOSS community-and if there is a bedrock principle of free speech, it's that offending someone is no justification to silence someone else, be it through displays of power, smear campaigns, or screeching.
Yes, I am considering leaving Linux. I already stopped contributing to open source. Because they have co-opted the entire movement and turned it p0litical.
Trying to control an outside developer and associated community for words and actions that happen outside the organization covered by a Code of Conduct is essentially the worst case scenario that the CoC doomers warned us about.
Doomers... bro, we just read the fucking room and ya know we kinda cheated. Twitter & facebook existed.... so we got to see exactly how it would go down with even very LARGE & WELL FUNDED, with illusions of accountability to go around. The way you phrased that is like calling someone that knows what red & green make in physical paint or digital artwork... I'm trying to be respectful, and I hope you understand the level of absuridity that in what you said. You should realize it's played out like this ...every signal time. Every group that played up those roles, every encounter with this kind of 'person' having an issue with another, every place where it's minority focused. You really should step back and take a look at the playbook that happens every time, and who gets slammed and how it's reported by people. I wish people would have listened, but alot of what's being said isn't a slippery slope... it's what happens. The moment you align a ToS/CoC/Eula/w.e to one set of believes that quotes 'protects' one side over the other, it will be abused. Any attempt to curve/solve the issues from the one side will only land with accusations and attacks about you being a horriple person that doesn't deserve to exist or be where you are.
@@JPBennett The code of conduct exists to set out the boundaries of communication of all contributors to a project. If you break the CoC there is no reason why the maintainers shouldn't act in accordance with their enforcement guidelines. He broke the CoC thus the maintainers want nothing to do with him.
How is having a Discord different from having an IRC or a Matrix server in terms of how the community interacts with it? Would you also say OSS projects shouldn't have IRC servers?
If IRC was popular yes, but since most people don't even know what IRC is or how to use it you get a very filtered down number of the most dedicated users. It's the same reason the kernel doesn't get many trolls, a mailing list is a lot of effort
@@BrodieRobertson IRC is not good for technical discussions anymore. You need to be able to share images and format code posts. Simply having forum posts for code dev is not practical.
@@excidium_ Something many open source devs get wrong. Standard "implementations". While standard protocols are good, the lack of standard implementations is a problem in many things. Something proprietary software doesn't run into as much. I'd like to see a lot more standard libraries & software in Linux. For applications, less fragmentation would be nice. We don't need 50 different task managers. Just one that works better than Windows. ATM KDEs is the most feature complete for example. Gnomes is a joke. Maybe I'm wrong, this is just my feeling.
@@zezba9000: Less fragmentation isn't important, more _categorized grades_ (e.g. "feature count", "stability", "user-base size", etc.) are important. When there's a particular thing (e.g. the IRC protocol) that you can judge a particular app by, then it's highly valuable to have that clearly described.
As a trans person, this is way less of an issue than freedesktop wants to portray it as. Sure, I may not represent every trans person, however I feel like most of us: (a) can take a joke, and; (b) don't take this shit seriously, esp when there are people doing actual discrimination (not whatever is supposedly wrong with what vaxry did) within FOSS. edit: see my replies for clarifications on my personal position, clearly i was a bit too vague with what i meant :P
And this is the main problem. If people left things for others to get used to naturally and responded in kind instead of automatically assuming malice and starting smearing and cancelling campaigns. And this also plays into how the vocal minority is poisoning the pool because if everything is discrimination, then nothing is discrimination. This is not a problem exclusive to the trans community, but it's happening everywhere. And the only thing this helps create are extremists on both sides who could care less about genuine organic change and only want to see the other side burn. If anything, many of those codes of conduct are more discriminatory towards the people they're supposed to protect than anything.
Unsolicited opinion here. That person makes you look worse. Both people were being d*cks, unable to just shut up & move on, but one side got a CoC, and the other side banned from contributing.
Or ya know.. we can start telling those who are to sensitive to stuff it. Like unless the person is actively using a certain community to be hositile.. Maybe what happens in discord dumpster stays in discord dumpster.
I'm a bit worried about a split in FDO software or hyprland being abandoned. I do believe that opening up this idea that you could be banned for things that occur outside of the project is kinda insane. Due to just basic time constraints this leads to the promotion of witch hunts. Plenty of people could be barred from the project with this mentality.
I don't think (or at least hope so) that hyprland will be abandoned as it is almost single handedly made by one person, so as long as that one person keeps on it with a few others dedicated to help, it'll be alive. I do agree that it may cause a split in FDO and just the fact that you can be banned for things that occur outside of the project will definitely have a huge impact going forward.
Hyprland is in quite a healthy development state but as with most projects like this its mainly maintained by one person that being vaxry, there are other big contributors but not to that level
@@BrodieRobertson I hope vaxry knows that he has support. He has created one of the best tiling desktop environments ever. He needs guidance not shame.
My initial thoughts on this situation, without looking into what exactly was said, are thus: 1) Why ban someone from a project for their conduct on a discord server? 2) Why would someone try to have the project removed from repositories over discord drama? (Sounds like a bad egg trying to take advantage of the situation to cause mischief) 3) If you go down the rabbit hole of banning talent from a project for reasons other than the quality of their work all your going to do is balkanize the project. When it comes to matters of community like discord servers its perfectly reasonable to moderate it as seen fit, but what happens in a discord server needs to stay in the discord server.
one consideration to someone's quality of work should also be how well that person can collaborate with others to create more quality. vaxry in the past has been difficult to work with, for example, being a little aggressive when he was asked to make certain considerations so that hyprland could then be proceeded to be made available in the void linux repository. however i can see how sometimes it is necessary to take control of what happens to your own project.
One bunch of pixels on the screen fought others bunch of pixels in the screen and now we'll have less good Linux desktop b/c the entity responsible for that is banned someone who actually tried to improve things. Instead of moderating other people's communities FDO should get their ass together and actually start to do something useful. You like diversity and inclusion? Okay, good, how about making screen readers under Wayland to ACTUALLY WORK?
@@blarghblargh I don't see a reason why childish humor in someone else's discord should be an FDO problem? Has this developer did any child moves in the FDO gitlab or other FDO community places? Nah? Unban and apologize then. FDO shouldn't be your mommy who controls how you behave on the internet.
@@hdkvSimple, people don't exist in a vacuum. Would you associate yourself with someone who's, say, openly in a murder cult so long as it's outside of that context? Obviously that's greatly exaggerated compared to the severity of this, but where, if anywhere, does that line separating them exist?
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 It doesn't matter where the line is, because participation in chatrooms that are not moderated as the hegemonic ~diversity~ club would like is nowhere near it. It's not even on the same planet. You talk about "cults", but the only cultlike behavior I see here is the idea that associating with non-members is anathema.
The political views of the programmer should have no bearing on their code. That's like refusing to use things invented by racists. Most people in the past were racist, believed that homosexuals should be executed, and would be horrified by the modern world. None of that affects the things they invented. If you were to pursue such a policy of avoiding things invented by racists would effectively exclude you from the industrial revolution. On the flip side, Alan Turing was gay. If you use computers, you rely on the work of a gay man. The idea of avoiding all things created by people who you hate leaves you with nothing, therefore it's a ridiculous policy. The swiveling office chair was invented by Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in "Notes on the State of Virginia" that he believed that Africans lacked the intelligence to participate in civilized society as equals to whites, while Native Americans, he believed, could be civilized to that level. I'm not going to say whether I agree with Vaxry or not, because my point is that code should be judged only on it's own merit, and that the author of the code doesn't matter.
that's not really true lol. if you cite thomas jefferson in your argument, it probably doesnt hold up. trans rights are non-negotiable. if an oss author doesnt support them, i wont support their project
I think the issue here is less about the code itself, but more so about like, the fact that it's actively being developed, and that the main developer holding discriminatory views openly creates a very hostile environment for a lot of people to contribute. and that's the real issue here, if you'd give a racist a major role in a project, you implicitly ban all black people from that project bc a racist guy is in charge. but even more, if you heavily associate with said project, black people might have reservations about you too, bc you associate with an open racist. It's not difficult to imagine I think how an entire ecosystem can suddenly appear hostile towards black people, and we would be losing out on great contributions from those people. this principle goes for any minority group, any discrimination shouldn't be tolerated, also v much for the code's sake
Your analogy is flawed, because hyperland isn't an invention or a completed project. It's an ongoing open source project that seeks out contributors. This means that the community leaders should uphold a certain degree of professionalism and avoid discrimination and hostile environments. Failure to do this will result in supporters and potential contributors feeling unwelcome and leaving the project. Vaxry essentially confirms this in his response when he says that he instead of changing Oro's server nickname he should have banned them. A ban is an even stronger indicator that the user isn't welcome in the community than forced name change, and Vaxry's response clearly shows that he doesn't have a problem with that. This is core of the problem imo.
@@qtpaulie If you guys (talking about either sex here, born or adopted) can't find some way to meet in the middle, a lot of things are going to be doomed. Why not the dull grey "they" or using the given name if there is disagreement over the morality of using trans he/she. Because there is a whole side that feels they are getting railroaded and the worse it gets the more likely gratuitously oppressive politicians are going to get voted for and then everybody will suffer. For these politicians won't want certain people to be in the closet/passing -- they will want them to be buried UNDER the closet, as it were. Liberal politics has self-toxified by taking things on to such an extreme, as best I can see, and it is a screaming shame that it has. Sure I'm a Christian of fairly classic beliefs and still want to live in peace as far as I can morally go. I also see much of the will of Jesus in modern liberal politics -- with the glaring exception of "this thing" which is more than a fly in the perfume, it's a honkin' rotting tarantula. At any rate, I've been fortunate enough to have never seen this pop up in an office -- yet. I rish y'all rotsa ruck. This carries the vibes and energy of two religions of mutual hatred going up against one another. Quite often humanity has come up with various ways of agreeing to disagree on one thing but avoiding the clashes and being civil on other things. But here? It seems to have failed. God help everybody.
And this is one of the reasons why I stopped trying to be part of any FLOSS community. People are more concerned with agendas, jargon, names and politics than solving problems. And somehow, they think that's gonna play in the world where people use OSes like an application platform and could care less what it is or what it represents as long as they can use their software of choice to solve their problems or if the tool you developed actually solves their problems. Where is this endless drivel about codes of conduct, politics and drama making any of the software, platforms and community any better?
Correct. This is why software progress is extremely slow on Linux. So many are on the sp3ctr7m and h1j4ck FOSS for their ag3nd4s. It is why I stopped sharing code too. Nobody is ever pure enough for them.
Perhaps this is a wake up call. Perhaps it was a terrible idea after all to structure Codes of Conduct to function like ideological purity tests. Maybe, just maybe, FOSS development shouldn't be a soapbox for anyone's political or social activism. I don't understand why anyone in the FOSS space would ever be told they can't use or contribute to a project because they hold stance X on issue Y and by the way issue Y is completely unrelated to the FOSS project or it's development... Please! Somebody make it make sense. Were you not informed that once you entered the real world you would encounter people who have different view points? Were you not informed that those people have every right to have different view points?
I literally add custom "Conduct Yourself However You Want" CoC to my projects. It is pretty brief, but essentially just states that I am not your mother or your spiritual leader, and am not going to dictate how you act. If I don't want you interacting with my code, I will remove you, simple as. I don't need an excuse or exhaustive list of nebulous and subjective buzz-words to describe it. People really need to stop being so sensitive about everything and come back to reality.
But that's not what happened, FD cannot limit who contributes to projects not maintained by them afaik Edit: it has just come to my attention that you were probably talking about how they can't submit to upstream anymore, in that case I start seeing your point
I really don't know if what happened on the Discord was particularly professional, but I don't really like the idea of banning someone from another online space just because they behaved inappropriately in one online space. It seems very harsh and pretty much sets up a scenario such that if you screw up once, you've made enemies of anyone who sympathizes with the person you hurt, forever. I get that Red Hat/FreeDesktop might be worried about how being associated with Vaxry would hurt their brand, but in my view as long as he was following their rules on their official channels, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ban him. I know that this "offsite rule enforcement" thing is becoming popular, such that if you violate a community's rules in a different place before you even join it, you can be held accountable and banned even if you had not yet agreed to follow those rules when you engaged in the behavior, or if the community you behaved that way in had different rules to start with. I don't like that policy and I know that things never used to work that way on the Internet... it used to be that if you screwed up and got banned from one place, then you were banned from that one place, and that was it, you were free to continue following the rules of other communities and not have something offsite used as an excuse to ban you... that is, your behavior within a given community wasn't assumed to be a reflection of how you conduct yourself within the rules of another. Now it seems like it's very much a "there is but one universal bar, if you don't meet it, you are immediately banned from nearly everything except for communities who have no problem with your behavior and who won't expect you to improve." I feel that because of this policy, I can never do anything high-profile because... if some stuff I said decades ago when I was a teenager was brought back up again, that would be enough to get me banned from almost half the Internet. And the only reason that hasn't happened is because I'm not high-profile enough to be on that many people's radars. If I ever was, I would be screwed. I guess the moral of the story is, if you're a normal person who can't behave perfectly all the time and meet these high standards consistently, don't be in a leadership position and do your best to avoid attention. Use lots of pseudonyms and don't worry about getting credit.
The pre-emptive warning mail was the most asinine shit that was in no way needed and I completely understand vaxrys reply to it. That mail should never have been sent unless vaxry actually crossed the line on fd.o, but he didn't (yet). Sure he could have responded better, but seriously how would any normal adult respond if they got a warning for something they didn't do? Laugh? Point out the hypocrisy? Point out the possible power abuse?
I would've been nastier than he did tbh. Tired of woke corporate America and their loony bullshit trying to shove the opinions of 1% down the throats of the 99%
That's just free speech, man. Vaxerski is free to say and do whatever he wants. FDO just told him, if you're continuing this behaviour, we will not work with you. He STILL has the right to do and say whatever he wants. They have the right to not work with him. That's how it works. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your own actions. You can say what you want, others have the right to thing you're a moron.
I don't understand projects that use discord. You're asking for trouble. Can't possibly moderate it, the chat system encourages sloppy reporting and it isn't helpful to people trying to resolve their problem. Frankly, projects that are ran through discord are something I look at as something that will implode. Nobody knows when, but sooner or later the fact that the dev has to maintain a repo and self moderate a discord server with hundreds or thousands of people will wear them down Literally none of this would have happened if there was no discord server. And I will never understand peope thay run a discord server when they obviously can't moderate it. Youre shooting yiurself in thr foot for no clear reason and no benefit Nobody would even be talking about such a thing as a "community" if it's just peope that use a project.
@@BrodieRobertson Oh yes it is an uphill battle. The whole life is an uphill battle but at least some people have self respect to not bow down to freaks enjoying bureaucratic power.
I don't think a developer, or their project, should be punished for what their community does, or acts like. I'm coming into this fresh off the Tech Over Tea Episode with Vaxry. I have seen Nicco's video about this subject as well, and having spent a little time in the server, all I can say is the support i got assistance for was superb, but I don't think I would just hang out there. I don't really have much coding knowledge. I don't think I could really contribute anything significant to the project. About the best I can do is assist with troubleshooting issues that I had previously encountered.
Honestly i don't agree with hyprland not needing a discord server, it's been nothing but helpful and welcoming to me, fixing bugs, having some conversations in general chat etc. I didn't have that expierence elsewhare. I dont' want to take sides here, but tarring everyone over the same brush is also not a solution.
Yeah, Brodie didn't really acknowledge how much Hyprland emphasizes Discord as a support forum. While my personal take is that Discord is a *garbage* platform to use as a support forum, even Minecraft is using it as their official feedback "site" now, so I think I've lost that battle...
The idea is that there would be an alternative support channel, like github discussions or something. His point is partially validated by the stupid mess we find ourselves in. Is general conversation/banter important to a window manager, especially when it comes with such risks? That being said, these nutjobs would cancel his project from leaked private conversations anyways, so at the end of the day it probably wouldn't change anything. I wonder if there's even a solution to this issue, besides just bifurcating the OSS community... I'd be in favour of that tbh, maybe we should just start using the SQLite CoE or something as a signal for these freaks.
I think support forums are great but I don't know if you need live chat to have a useful support forum
5 месяцев назад+2
@@GSBarlev I think most forget how "modern" forums/mailinglists can be with things such as Hyperkitty or Discourse which are much better as a support platform alongside any chat system.
I think general chat support is great, but Discord is not the place to do that on. Not only because it's closed-soure and not libre, but also because it's just a crap place to be in. There are too many people there
Vaxry sounds like an unagreeable person. Yet he also appears to be pretty damn productive. My take is that his code can stand on its own. If people have a problem with him, let them make a determination of whether they want to use that code or not. Let people determine if they want to associate with him or not.
I really can't believe that this has blown up this much. I mean seriously, what happened was not the best way to deal with this situation but also no reason to try to remove the project. There should have been a simple apology and the issue should have been resolved. There are people out there who treat other people way worse. This is of course an insult to some, but it is way less of an insult than if Linus lashes out at a contributor asking (for Linus) stupid questions. And what now? Everyone should also delete Linux? No of course not, since you have to separate the project and the people behind it. Especially if the people behind it aren't that bad.
Yeah it is kind of different when Linus says your code or idea or implementation sucks balls vs you are not a really person that don't deserve the same dignity that you would expect. For his very acerbic nature being born Finnish after all he always plays the ball and not the person.
@@tibbydudeza It is all in relation how much a person values that aspect. If your pronouns are important to you, you would take great offense when someone misgenders you. On the other side if you take great pride in your code and maybe even are a fan of Linus because of his great achievements, it would hurt greatly to get insulted for your goodwill. And I didn't quite get the meaning of the last part.
@@-cdz- The difference isn't in *how* insulted someone feels. It's *why* the insult was levied in the first place. Being criticized for your work hurts, but it's not the same thing as being criticized for who you are. A better analogy would be if Linus lashed out because the author is Italian (just as a random example, I have no idea what Linux thinks about Italians).
@@-cdz- Oh it is English saying - means by all means disagree with on the issue but never get personal. Linus said nVidia sucks because of their Optimus switching tech was broken - he never said nVidia CEO Jensen Huang should die a thousands deaths or needs to go back home to Taiwan. That is the meaning essentially.
One side of this fight is hosting a package of ideas that says it's a moral atrocity to associate with anyone who doesn't adhere to the same ideas. Something like this outcome was written in stone the moment someone from that camp recognized Vaxry as an enemy. Totalitarian memeplexes be that way.
yeah, fight eachother over pronouns, cancel projects and people, as long as youre not fighting those who *actually* oppress and exploit you. make sure to never think on your own or question your ideology. this is the most important thing in the world, not unity, not solidarity, not liberation.
A teacher in Ireland is in jail indefinitely for refusing to call a boy a girl. This is about liberation, there are very bad people in the world and they want complete submission.
Exactly what ideology are you talking about? Because existence of trans and non-binary people is not an ideology. If you think it is, then you are just uneducated and misinformed.
Yeah I caught the livestream but went back to see the beginning. By the time I had seen it it didn't exist anymore. I just kinda regret watching in fullscreen because of the comments not being synced up. I like to see comments on these kinds of things because I have been in cases where is I hadn't seen what comments were not being read, I would have been misinformed.(Such as source available devs, deciding to call their software open source.) I honestly doubt I missed to much, but I should consider personal video and livestream backup caches so I can see things as they were when uploaded. This had all kind of left my mind since yesterday, I'm glad this comments reminded me. Thanks!
As a trans woman, I do agree vaxry has...questionable opinions. But i disagree entirely with his ban. I think it's even more unfortunate since there was discussion about hyprcursor becoming an FDO standard.
@@5fr4ewq Literally not true, nor even make sense, unless you are mistakenly confusing FOSS for the the Free Software Foundation (FSF). Surely you aren't claiming that every person who pushes to a public repo is making some concerted political statement?
@@UlcerousAxis The comments section on YT regarding a video with a tangential political connection is not open-source code. No amount of cope or gaslighting is going to change my mind about this commonsense and self-evident truth.
It's happening in every different type of group. Activists come in, get offended and throw a fit, before you know it there's a cancellation mob gunning for you. I say it's the activists because sane and reasonable people do not try and destroy a person and project simply because that person said/did something they didn't like. The weaponized fragility is off the charts.
Why do people care about the maintainers of the project? if it's good software that I enjoy and it's not violating my privacy I will probably keep using it.
@@mk72v2oq coc dont help here, im pretty sure gnome is all formal and bullshit, they still ignore bug reports about any gtk desktop tools effected by their opinions on themeing
@@mk72v2oq you mean when you wonder why a bug hasn't been fixed and its because the developer of hyprland is not allowed to contribute to wlroots (the wayland compositor library that hyprland uses) or any other freedesktop project?
I don’t agree with Vax on most things, but I do agree with RedHat abusing their position to harass and force other FOSS projects to do want them to do.
@@Hellscaped yes, but redhat as a company (and many of their employees) have a habit of invading other FOSS projects and essentially taking them over. And that’s if they aren’t writing their own code and then making all of their other projects rely on it, forcing it to be a required piece of the software stack even of distro or people don’t want to use it.
I've been trying to run Hyprland or sway in my samsung zfold5 with termux and termux-x11 (I was told termux-x11 supports wayland) does anyone know any source or any documentation that can help me to set it up?
When someone says "X is bad and toxic, here's a link" that just sounds like an immature and a whiny behavior. Just because a couple of people having an argument over some bullshit it doesn't means that whole project should be dumped. Personally I don't care, Hyprland is by far my favorite WM and im gonna keep on using it without giving a flying F about someone crying over pronounce
If you can ban people from freedesktop based on the rude things they do or say then shouldn't torvald be also banned? I don't this was a professional descision and was very much biased. I haven't read from all sources but this is my initial opinipn.
The ban wasn't about being rude, rudeness is just the excuse. He was banned for rejecting far left ideology. If he was just rude, even much ruder than he was or ever could be in reality, he would get a pass as long as his target was right wing, they would in fact celebrate it.
If a person changed my nickname (does not matter what, even one letter), I would be very pissed off. My nickname is my property, and as long as it does not violate common guidelines, no one has any right to interfere with it. It is a super dick move. Now, hyperland package does not need to suffer because of some discord shitheads. I see literally no relation.
Right now, the hyprland community is like the 6 year old that learns to say a curse word and repeat it constantly, except they are teenagers that think they are cool and edgy by doing that. Good luck to all you all. But for me, a community based on mean spirited bullism of immature individuals is hardy the one I want to trust my system with. So I personally wash my hands of it.
@@Skelterbane69 the problem is not only the words. The problem is to trust the code with such privilage of a bunch of immature people which at each point could do something that they may think is funny. If you believe that the people writing the code are acting more judicously than people running the server, go ahead. Trust them. I don't think other compositors are offering much less, so i just trust those that show more care towards the community that are helping to build the code.
Ah yes excluding someone from a society or forum of communication entirely for having an opinion you do not like in an entirely unrelated forum and on an entirely unrelated subject.... Surely this isn't a highly problematic and severely oppressive manipulation tactic that's been used in any problematic historical context at all... I can't seem to think of any examples, other than the Red Scare, Nazi Germany, the USSR, the DPRK, ...
Nothing says "Nobody cares about pronouns" as changing the person name to indicate how little you care. At this point I don't care how other side is wrong to dig the truth and read blogs, changing username is a cringe.
this is because the people passionate about using preferred pronouns would rather people that don't respect them, respect them; than respect them (preferred pronouns) themselves enough to make them a consistent system of referring to people
I'm using Hyprland for over a year and I don't intend to change that. I talked to Vaxry over a few issues on Github and yes, he can be kind of an ass sometimes, so what? I should stop using Hyperland because he's an ass? Hell no.
If Hyprland gets compromised due to such pettiness, I'm going to have an aneurysm. Hyprland is the only wm/de that I like. People need to separate the art from the artist, or in this case, the code from the programmer.
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 Except it wasn't in their own space. FDO are trying to control someone's behaviour *outside* of their own space, it's clearly stated in their own emails. You're being disingenuous.
We're heading toward purity testing for both contributors and users of FOSS. This will not end well. If Hyprland is suddenly disappeared from distributions under pressure to conform or be shamed, it will be an escalation. Same if contributors and users are extradited from FOSS.
The "(who/cares)" thing is pretty tame and not worth starting an argument over. If you do not like a community that is not yours, that just makes you a control freak. Just do not go into that community. Going into someone else's community to try and make them change is extremely toxic. Using a bigger community to bully a smaller community is very toxic. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
No one "went into the community" to change it. Vaxery and his community have the right to do and say whatever they want. But others have the right to tell them to fuck off and not work with them. That's just free speech.
@@tkg__ 1: That would be freedom of association not freedom of speech. 2: She literally went in there and brought everything off the discord because she did not get what she wanted. She tried to get the project taken off other distros. She then used her power at a large company and a larger community to kick him out of the larger community. That sounds like strong arming to try to change a community to me.
The main issue with the "just focus on the code" people is that that statement typically comes when someone calls out harassment or demands that something be done about harassment in the community instead of coming in at the point the harassment initially happens. If "focus on the code" is really the critical thing then why tolerate any harassment in the first place?
Let me guess, you think banter is harassment too? I don't like how people constantly try to water down words until they mean nothing anymore. Had to clean your room? Trauma. Didn't want cake today? Eating disorder. Not being considerate on a bad day? Narcissistic personality disorder. Saying race shouldn't matter for selecting a candidate? Racist. Being down today? Depressed. Wanting the government to spend money? Socialist. What was there to be actual harassment that wasn't perpetrated by both sides? And why shouldn't a personal discord server be able to eject people that act in a way they don't want to have in there? The way I see it, they held an art workshop out of their garage. People liked the art being made and kept watching. It's entertainment. Some people wanted to contribute with art supplies, or their own paintings. Suddenly someone starts to talk about how the art is not good for them and that the workshop held out of their garage where people can join for free isn't professional enough and that they must change. I get the indignation against that. "Who put you in charge of my house? Be sensible or get out." And then they are notified that they won't be able to work at Red Hat if they wanted to.
@@Mankepanke everyone and their mothers already agree that harassment happened. Even the guy himself kind-of sort-of apologized for it. Learn to read the room.
@@Xankill3r No, it was just some people being mean to each other. Sure, semantic argument. I agree that they shouldn't have changed the name, and I agree that it was good that they apologized. But is it really right to still hold this over everyone? It wasn't the developer doing the name change, and they implemented a CoC, and they apologized, and it's been two(!) years. Why complain and ban _now_ after so much time and good faith from the wrongdoers? What else is needed to get these cry-bullies to let it go? 10 years and a public flogging? It looks unhinged to get so upset for something so minor so long ago.
I definitely agree with that OpenSUSE guy. If the project itself isn't toxic, then does this matter? It's childish discord drama that that the average user doesn't know or care about. If you got rid of everything you owned where terrible people were involved in its making, you'd be naked and homeless.
If I let a project's community of users influence my using that project... well let's just say I probably wouldn't be a desktop linux user. The unruly 4chan type crowd is obnoxious but so are the overly uptight clowns who think not being offended or challenged is a god given right. To hell with both sides as far as I'm concerned.
@@ImperiumLibertasright: Free Speech. their nickname being censored because it doesn’t align with the views of the developer/discord moderator. Goes both ways, and korn received his sacrifice.
There will always be people who like to stir up the smallest possible drama as if it was the worst day in human history, neither can you please everyone. In fact, on the internet it is way easier to make people pissed off. Tectone, an example of a man getting sent death threats on Twitter on a daily basis for over 3 years, I know this very well. When the pronoun situation happened, it could've been resolved in a 30-minute Discord call, and no one would've know. However, due to the blog posts, Mastodon and especially the Reddit post, it got way out of hand. I'll be real though, I had no idea hyprland even had a Discord, nor would I really care. It's a pretty good piece of software in my experience. This is informative and unfortunate
@@DeviRuto imo its worthwhile to try having a discussion even if there's a < 1% chance it leads to some positive outcome. Would you want to live in a world where no one tries to make things better because trying is hard and has a high risk of failure? I think a great moderator can generate understanding on both sides rather than have it turn into a pointless flame war. I believe this is something the open source community needs but probably doesn't even know why it might be valuable.
We shouldn't forget that a CoC (you could also call it "diligence in communication" [DiC]) is a huge pillar for our society.
That's a brilliant comment
I see what you did there
Based and DiCpilled
What "our society"? The one that labels everything they don't like as hate/bigotry/something-phobia and loves censorship?
lol
This is why Linus Torvalds saying that you should find people you like working with is so important.
There is some irony in Linus saying that.
@@ChurchHatesTucker Surely he can't hate everyone he works with.
Actually I think Linus and Vaxry are very similar. Talented devs that don't want political activists to get in their way.
@@tinglabing Linus is not apolitical. I remember one of his posts on Mastodon where he told someone that complained about "wokeness" to f*ck off
@@tinglabingExcept Vaxry went out of his way because someone changed their discord name. I don't think changing a username should be political.
most people who just install hyprland from the repos and have probably never heard about any community (like me) are crawling from under a rock and being like "wut? who's this?" and 15 minutes later they forget about the whole thing
And then there are others like me who are in the process of switching compositors right now.
I declare "who cares" and "move on"
@@FashA.-du5kigood for you? Nobody cares.
@FashA.-du5ki Yeah, I’m switching away from it as well. Such behavior should not be tolerated.
@@monaelkhairy4167 I bet you'll forget about it in a week when there isn't something to virtue signal about.
thank tux you made a video on this, I was getting worried I'd have to think and form my own opinion in the matter
LMAO, this is so damn true
unfortunately, this is an unbiased video that tells you to go form your own opinion lmao
goddammit unlike unsub fakeandgay etc etc
@@guyblack9729 it was a surprisingly nuanced video. Brodie did a great job staying out of the politics of the situation. The great part of free software is that it's free. You can do whatever you want with it. Unfortunately the community is full of cry bullies that will try and ruin someone over politics.
I tried thinking. I failed, so now I'm here...
It's called Discord for a reason.
i feel like discord and twitter are the most mentally ill social media platforms
@@currentsubset6885 Not unless you only use it to talk to your friends and dont go into any public servers/groupchats thats how it is with all social media
@@currentsubset6885 discord is a bit like..... either it has absolutely nothing to do with drama, or is involved in every drama
@@currentsubset6885wait till you visit 4chan
@@currentsubset6885and you doubt it?
Tbf, if distros start pulling packages for developer/community toxicity, we'll barely have distros anymore.
Just one example, but ReiserFS.
Just got dropped from the kernel, was unmaintained for years due to Hans Reiser's association with it and nobody wanting to touch it or be associated with it.
It's not the only project that has died directly because of its association with their lead devs either.
@@kienanvella well, but as you said, it wasn't dropped bc of Reiser, but because it wasn't properly maintained
@@JmbFountain I said it wasn't properly maintained because of Reiser's association with it.
The same can absolutely happen to hyprland, where other devs won't want to work on or with hyprland.
I'd kind of be surprised if someone didn't fork hyprland in the wake of the now 3rd incident involving the hyprland community.
@@kienanvellaAny fork would be pointless unless it's someone that will devote their full time to developing it and is as skilled as Vaxry, because Hyprland was and still mostly is a one man project.
This isn't like PolyMC where the one person contributing the least was left.
@@kienanvella yeah but also because Reiser himself couldn't do the maintenance himself from prison.
It makes zero sense to have developers running chatrooms. I personally would not want to be responsible for any kind of internet mass communication channel in any way, shape or form.
I've been involved with an OSS Discord bot project, and for the project to be allowed to run, it's literally mandatory it has an associated server... 😅
Hear, hear. Every hour they have to spend dealing with Discord being Discord is one less hour they have to work on their own project.
The is zero sense about making such a drama about a chatroom. If you don't like it simply leave it.
Developers are some of the best communicators out there, except when it comes to communicating with people instead of machines.
I’m too old for this
@thephoenix-bf5qd some of us ignore it and move on
Yes, I think he will respond diff when he hits 40yrs. Imagine caring if a child throws a tantrum! I say what I want and to hell with the complainers. Complainers will complain.
these snowflakes dont even know what real toxicity is
@@arnavgrover4631 toxicity is what those who call people snowflakes demonstrate to us every day.
They whinge about everything from Easter eggs not having the word Easter on the box, to OTHER PEOPLE wearing hijabs, to OTHER PEOPLE kissing and loving people with the same genitals as them.
The minute someone forces someone not to celebrate Easter, or to wear a hijab, or to kiss someone with the same genitalia as them, or to state their own pronouns, I’ll be the first to say this is wrong.
Until then, those who throw around the word “snowflake” should show some respect. Get to know a woman, a transwoman, a gay man, a Muslim, an Afro-Caribbean, or something. You may just find they’re not so great a threat to society as you thought.
As for bigotry, we’re not too far from the 100th anniversary of a very good demonstration of the threat bigotry poses to society.
So that´s why I don´t get what´s even going on. I´m 50 and don´t even understand the who/what/why here. I understand this much: It´s drama and something about gender. Look. It´s rather simple. If someone identifies as a toaster, I will still like or dislike them for what they do, not what they are. How hard can it be? I´m born in a different world than kids of today. But that doesn´t mean I can´t use my brain.
"Most of you.....are actually adults." LMAO
genuine laugh
but not mature.
Forever young, I want to be forever young ...
Of course we're all adults. Even the 13-17 year olds in RUclips metrics are just 40 year old FBI agents.
*search:* how to adult.....
*No results found*
Hi traveller, feel free to rest here. have some snacks before you continue with your journey into the pits of this comment section
I'm watching while drinking a fine wine and wood working.
@@nature2508 Take your meds alice, you are hallucinating again
@@notuxnobuxIt seems like you might be the one hallucinating.
You are first comment here xD Irony
@@Bob-of-Zoid Is alcohol and wood working good combination? I heard a lot of bad stories
Installed hyprland a week ago, it's great, don't care about the drama.
We need more of this attitude. It's software not politics.
Based.
It's slow as shit on sandybridge gpu. Sway runs fine while also using wlroots. And yes i did disable background blur and all the other unnecessary performance hogs
I don't care about the politics either, I just love using hyprland. I got into it because of Brodie and now he's not using it I feel so betrayed but I forgive him. 😂
👍👍
I'll have you know, I'm a 36-year-old child.
somehow, i believe you.
"This is going to be the first of many situations where the FOSS ecosystem is going to deal with the fact that there is a lot of people that you do not agree with."
Didn't we already learn this during the vim/emacs wars, the UNIX wars, the incessant "I use Arch btw" plague, Elastic doing its licensing games, RedHat pissing off its own CentOS base, Redis doing its licensing things, etc. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head xD.
EDIT: Systemd vs init!! I knew I forgot one.
I use arch btw
Look your not going to convince me that systemd is not devil
Turtle neck shaft vs no turtle neck shaft as well
Can someone explain why Vaxry actually recieved an email from FDO if hyprland has nothing to do with it?
Go read the blog
from what i can understand, the FDO saw what Vaxry said in the hyprland discord and didn’t like it, so they banned him from talking in FD channels (GitLab, IRC)
Because he still has contributed to fdo projects and other fdo project contributors reported him to the coc team. And they are saying this is not acceptable behaviour in our space no matter where its said given public statements
Ahhh, I didn't realise he had contributed to FDO
Multiple fd.o members talked to moderators about how they feel uncomfortable with Vaxry in the fd.o space because of how he acts in public and in his own Discord server. An fd.o moderator reached out to Vaxry to share this and advised him to avoid such actions in the fd.o space (particularly wlroots' GitLab and Matrix). Vaxry melts down and doxxes the officer, so fd.o proceeds to ban him as a response.
Honestly, I didn't even know this existed.
> remove hyprland because toxic
so same for gnome too?
I'm using COSMIC atm and honestly can see GNOME getting replaced in the near future.
@@user-hh4br5tk5p Happened once with glibc. Debian got so tired of Drepper being Drepper , they moved to eglibc.
@liquideternity8692Debian did it with Debian/kFreeBSD (the project died last year)
Stallman defended pedophilia, time to never use gnu utils again, let's also stop using C and the stdlib
I haven't used GNOME in over a decade and I've been happier for it.
I like cheese. Cheese has no drama. Can‘t we just ignore shit and eat cheese together? I have cheese and am willing to share…
dairy is rape
Hold on, no drama? Two words: American cheese.😉
But what's the best kind of cheese, even cheese can have drama
@@rv6502 I'm pretty sure some countries don't even let that be called cheese
@@BrodieRobertson @rv6502 The only flaw in an otherwise perfect plan! So, I guess drama is good as long as it’s cheesy. :)
The outcome of this will be interesting. Hyprland is currently the best tiling compositor, and I don’t think anyone is wanting to fork it, so vaxry is going to probably continue being a major player in the space.
They will try and fork it but they won't go anywhere with it.
@@ImperiumLibertasyeah I foresee a bunch of 'protest forks' but with the amount of work done on hyprland which is by vaxry himself I highly doubt they will go anywhere
i wont say its objectively the best, but yeah for many people, it is.
@@rizkyadiyanto7922 it is objectively the best
It is and Vaxry should definitely continue to be a major player, as well.
>the anime wm has stupid discord drama all over it.
Who could have possible foreseen this?
There's no discord drama. There are just people with issues that find an issue with something that was already discussed and making it an issue. Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first.
@@cutiepielonely "Fdf coc mods also have madtadon posts that don't comply with the coc. They should resign and fox themselves first."
I have no idea what anything in this sentence means, so I'll politely agree...
@@CEOofGameDev Freedesktop forum "code of conduct" moderators have mastadon posts that violate freedesktop "code of conduct", so I am implying they should apply it to themselves. Just look at the irony, "Free" desktop where you cant speak as you wish outside in your life without them governing you. Just to be clear, freedom of speech isnt an excuse to use slurs or offend minorities. But that didnt happen. Linux isn't super popular to be gatekeeped or to ban valuable contributors just because of these fascists. They should ditch Linux and create something else if they think they shouldn't use software made by problematic people because Richard Stallman has good amount of contribution.
TLDR This isnt simply an issue of childish dev acting entitled. Varxy can sure be dislikable but banning people that can actually improve wayland(wlroots) for silly discord reasons is very childish at best and maybe fascist at worst. Linus already warned us about getting politics involved with gnu.
@@CEOofGameDev CoC is I belive “Code of Conduct”, “Madtadon” is a typo for Mastodon - the “Patreon but serious (?)”
No idea what “fdf” or “fox themselves” means. Would be thankful for any input xD
Actually, I like being able to hop into a project specific discord and ask casually for advice from other users, I find it super handy. It's like an actually good version of LLM's... asking other people.
I couldn't care less about how 'nice' the people who develop the software I use are, that said I don't use Hyprland and if I had to choose between it or an interchangeable project where both meet my needs, I would go with the one with the 'nicer' developer/ community.
That said, contribution bans should be used on people that try to sabotage/ add malware/ backdoors to the project.
I would go with the community that uses free software to develop the software (i.e. Matrix instead of Discord, Codeberg instead of GitHub, Weblate instead of Crowdin, etc.).
You know it's a controversial issue when Brodie's "opinion" is to make up your own mind. Just speculating though, I think he at least mildly disagrees with banning Vaxry from the FDO.
Certainly, even someone who doesn’t have to try to maintain a non biased stance (for this example, someone who doesn’t care either way) has their opinion leak into their coverage or telling of the events.
I disagree with the ban as well. Mostly because escalating to a ban seems a bit premature. It was definitely where he was headed towards though.
The FDO person (I can't remember the spelling for my life) should have sent a more professionally worded reminder noting that his emails so far are written like a temper tantrum, calming down that this is just a Warning and nothing else will happen, that this is just the FDO sending him a Warning as a sort of notification of their stance on the matter and that this email chain should focus on the topic at hand.
From there if the behaviour continues have it escalate to a 1 month timeout (or a 1 week one if we want to just be symbolic) based on the fact that he can't seem to behave professionally when interacting with folks from the project, and from there to a 6month-timeout or ban. At least for as "light" an infraction as this was.
(Also of course make it clear that this is the escalation chain he's headed towards in the interest of open communication).
Its sort of an "everybody sucks here" situation but imo Vaxry's reaction blew this out of proportion.
Banning from contributing to a project should only be done when someone is attempting to sabotage the project.
I actually just gave Hyprland a go for the first time and absolutely loved it, had no idea this was going on LOL
I don't really feel either party was being very mature, but I also feel that insulting someone's pronouns is not a good way to get anything done, or good humor.
For me, I think that because of how this all started, I'm simply going to take this as more evidence that Discord is not worth your time, and let it go. This in no way needs to get this heated, and it's just gonna escalate. We must learn to let things go, and let folks get back on the right track to learn from their mistakes.
Having done all my research already and looking at all sides of the different angles. I think it's a two-way street. The email needed a couple of revisions for tone, and Vaxry read things that really weren't there or implied by those emails.
From there it just escalated.
Honestly I feel sorry for him. I've been in his position before. I surrounded myself with some terrible people and I was having life issues irl too.
It really just warps your judgement completely and it makes you do and say dumb s***.
I eventually did a couple of really terrible/dumb things and thought it was justified bc of my surroundings. Seeing meaning in things that really weren't written or implied or was too vague to cast judgement on. Then escalating it and causing a s***storm like this one.
I was lucky I still had ppl to talk me down and make me come to my senses. I hope he can too.
I also feel the other side did not show their best side. Everyone can see this is a person that is in over his head. If they were trying to escalate, get him banned and bring the project down I can't see what they would have done differently.
@gusvanwes6192 yeah, I agree, but that's what you get when there is already bad blood. Justified or not.
Edit: it's not a takedown or a hit. It just looks that way bc of all the drama it stirred up.
And I do not feel bad for him, he's a shit person. He's not a victim here.
@@shockwave3318 You sure about that? Because it kinda seems like they victim stack gang got a coc used against someone because it couldn't cope with the other existing, and neither could shut up.
Why wasn't the other person banned then? Oh wait... a they/them can't be the opressor and be held to their own standards.
I'm not saying either side was good.. but look who got taken down, and was targeted first.. because you know darn well that if CoC talked to a they them about its lowsy behavior, it would be cries & accusations of oppression.
I think it's entirely reasonable to request he be professional in his communications around the project. Nobody is arguing on that point. What is not okay is trying to subvert an open source project because the maintainer wouldn't be forced into using preferred pronouns.
Additionally, using a red hat email and not clarifying the "we" in "we will take action" seems purposefully deceitful. But that's just my opinion. I understand those email addresses aren't endorsements.
9:46 My day would have been vastly more enjoyable if I did lock that thread
Can you do it now?
Oh that's you? I am so sorry.
@@Sahil-a-vim-user Not much of a point to anymore, it’s mostly inactive now.
Do you mind if I ask why you didn't?
@@BrodieRobertson The subreddit is primarily about news and discussion, so we let it stay up. But I will say in my near year of moderating the sub, this had been the most heated thread by far.
lol isn't the linux community great.. :)
In 66 years iv'e noticed that the people that have issues with what you say are just people with issues. I mean you are very civil in you language and as nice as you are, and people have issues with what you say are the very people I'm talking about. Very level headed. IMO
Summing then up as "people with issues" is completely correct. They take out their frustrations on the worldwide open source community.
While I do agree this is often the case I do believe there are some situations where people complaining about what one says have some merit to their request
Varxy is also just kind of a rude dick whenever he replies to anyone, so I don't like him as a person on that basis. Still gonna use hypr tho Cus it's pretty epic
i mean, vaxry was the dumbcnt who started this whole thing
Tiling compositor drama is my favorite RUclips genre.
This is legit some of the most petty childish drama I've ever seen.
It may be childish, but the one of the consequences is that a person who contributed good code to multiple FOSS project won't be able to anymore. Sure, it's just a one person, but if that becomes a trend, it may be really bad for FOSS, given how much we need contributors. For many smaller projects, one contributor less is a big difference.
@@blbezcc Ehm, do you mean with "one person" Oro, the one who's Discord name was changed, or Vaxry?
In case of Oro, why, what did I miss?
@@blbezcc toxic communities also keep people away.
@@jfolzyes, it's a litmus test
@@kuhluhOG I mean Vaxry. Imagine if every FOSS project just banned every contributor with opinions and behavior that project owner don't agree with. You would probably be surprised how big part of world's FOSS code is written by tankies, racists and even worse people. And I see no problem with it as long as the code is good, free and open-source.
i agree that hyprland does not need a discord. It would prevent alot of drama and allow vaxry to focus on coding and keep his opinions out of the spotlight.
Also this will keep happening. polymc vs prism launcher, hyprland and it's fork etc. the one thing opensource is good at is forking when a dev doesn't like something. And it would be good if everyone could be tolerant of each others ideas, but that is not going to happen with modern tribalism. view projects like how you view content creators, and try not to harass people for having different opinions. the block button exists for a reason.
With polymc if i remember correctly the owner of the project kicked out most devs so they kinda had to fork it
I mean, free software and open source *is* inherently political. But this particular instance doesn't even have anything to do with politics. Just someone being a dick.
@@NeftisIsHere yeah i understand that, but i was trying to say that there is a divide in the minecraft launcher community.
@@nature2508 i feel like this is going to happen to a distro at somepoint, and they really don't need more fragmentation
Trans issues are a irreconcilable difference. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable working with somebody who doesn't respect my personal boundaries.
Awww, I'm fairly good ❤
Hello KDE Man
As I understand it, "fairly good" in Aussie is "incredible" in Amercian English. That is, a step above "not bad" and just a shade below "Vegemite-grade."
@@Reichstaubenminister plasma man
I could add a CoC stating: "Just leave people alone." Then I could pre-emptively ban all Twitter users.
"Due to your users are mostly assholes, we've decided it's easier to ban your entire social network, known as X, as Twitter, as etc.
Sincerely, your internet police."
@@tozpeak Some of us don't want to deal with constant American mental drama, please understand. Some of us are normal people.
Wouldn't that mean no one could talk to eachother?
As a non-binary hyprland user for now I am going to keep using hyprland until something better for my use case comes along. If hyprland continues to be the best for me I will continue to use it. Possibly avoiding the discord because it is not needed. Not that discord trolls concern me I have been in the hyprland discord with my pronouns in my user name and only discussed hyprland.
That being said I would prefer people not to be dicks
Honestly at this point I think the wayland standalone compositor ecosystem is kinda not getting any better. When I decided to switch to Wayland I was shocked with how few options are available, and how many are one burnout away from being abadoned. The development burden is just too great for lone devs/small groups
@@excidium_ you finally found out the reason that wayland exists. i'm proud of you :-)
I was excited for wayland too before I found out that they coded away ways around their own protocol to sabotage per-window-isolation just for convienence and for copy-and-pasting to exist. just another burdensome project that had a great thing going for it in the beginning DITW from RH
This is the way! Even though I disagree with your politics we can set that aside to embrace Free and Open software.
@@excidium_ KDE and Gnome adopting Wayland will be huge for future support.
@@ImperiumLibertas I didn't realize that "people not being dicks" is political now.
maybe i'm stupid, but finished the video i still don't understand what the argument is about?
That might be for the best
Its better to just walk away if i could remember the hp lovecraft quote from Call of cthulu i would right now
It is as follows: the edgy teens on vaxry's discord were mean to a person in their server but that person turned out to be part of the foss lgbt clique, and the situation escalated to important people of that clique which got hyprland booted from contributing to freedesktop
triggered alphabet spaghets wanting 25 genders and disliking logic
@@excidium_ By being mean they just made a mildly funny joke about pronouns. Wow, such meanness.
IDGAS team here ... ✋
yeah, unless it hbomberguy's quality dunk, it's kinda hard to GAS. Especially I'm not sure who freedesktop guys are.
The issue is you can't easily 'not interact with FTO'. If this was a smaller project that wasn't in charge of everything this would be way more acceptable.
You really can though. It’s not hard to make software without interacting with the FDO community and only their software
With live in a world of open source licences so as long as you're not IP banned from the repo you can use the code
@@BrodieRobertsonhow can we contribute to standardize freedesktop portals and other stuff without it tho? Just YOLO with that "wayland is not ready APIs guy"?
@@BrodieRobertson I'm not sure you understand what the FTO does (considering you seem to referencing it as 'code). Not being able to submit to it is significantly harmful both to Hyprland and to Vaxry.
Vaxry in the past has made numerous important contributions (tearing, cursors, more), no longer being able to do that means that Hyprland now no longer has a say in what happens to the Linux desktop as a whole.
It's not good to understate the control that the FDO has over the linux desktop. As I said, it's not just any project.
@@HxHStudios I'm saying it doesn't hurt the Hyprland project, if anything it hurts the users of other projects
I read Drew's initial blog post, and wasn't convinced by it. In fact, I don't agree with Drew's politicis. And yet, I use Sway as my daily driver. I would use Hyprland too, if it ever got to work on my machine. I don't care about either developer's politics, and I'm pretty sure most people don't. We have got to stop these purity tests being forced on the community!
The people who are puritanical in this community seem to believe themselves free speech and free expression advocates. Why give a shit about how people represent themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of speech? Why care about how they express themselves when you’re an advocate for freedom of expression? It’s a shame how people think that they are advocates for freedom when they’re the ones who are restricting other’s rights.
Is there anything that would cross the line for you? Would you feel the same if a developer was convicted of mass murder? I'm not comparing Vaxry's actions to murder, I'm just trying to say that for most people, there exists a line SOMEWHERE. If you agree, then it's just a subjective opinion of where that line is, and you can probably understand if other people draw the line differently than you do.
@@backpackvacuum9520 Nope, none at all, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the dev, it's a matter of practicality and using what works best for me. Why would I hurt myself just because I don't agree with him? I can understand wanting to hurt him in the most primitive senses, but wanting to hurt yourself sounds like mental illness and you should probably consider help.
It's FOSS, you're not hurting him in any shape or form by not using the software. This isn't like speaking with your wallet in a capitalistic environment.
If the project ends up dying because he's jailed that's a whole different issue though. But the reason I'd stop using it is because the project died, completely irrelevant to what the dev did.
@@DDracee chosing to use the product or not is completely different from FreeDesktop choosing to associate with him or not. The first is gaining utility from a free product by an individual, the second is (to some degree) stating your approval of the developer and linking your reputation with theirs. Like it or not, software is about people, and if a dev isn't treating their users like people, then that's bad. It doesn't mean you can't use the software if you want to, but it means that other developers might not want to give you their stamp of approval.
@@backpackvacuum9520 The OP was talking about personal use and you never insinuated otherwise.
But on that topic I'd agree that it's different, but not in the way you worded it. Using controversial software is not a statement of approval. But you do run the risk of inheriting that controversy so it can be judged to be a good PR decision to avoid that altercation altogether.
That said, this still has no effect on the dev of the controversial FOSS project. He'd be developing that software regardless.
Note that Freedesktop/RedHat do have financial and legislative motives despite being FOSS. In the case of a project with no such motives, the question remains the same. Why hurt your own project just because you don't agree with who wrote the code? If that code makes the project better, there's nothing else to talk about.
I cannot wrap my head around the concept of needing to adhere to someone's philosophies when using something they made. There's absolutely no logical sense to this.
Wow. To go after the distros and lobby for the removal of Hyprland just to try to punish the guy? That's insanely toxic!
Who cares? Someone who takes time to edit someone's bio by abusing their power. This whole drama could have been so easily avoided if they really didn't care.
Yep. If he actually "didn't care" this wouldn't have happened. They cared enough to fuck with someone about something they knew is important to that person. That was a deliberate choice.
@@tkg__ They wanted to nip the identity politics in the bud and I don't blame them.
As a non-binary person, idc. I like hyprland and it's codebase and will continue using it
based.
>discord
its one minute in but I bet on lack of grass issues
Brodie is the Gotham Chess of the Linux community: he lives off the drama farming.
I expected this video just to understand a portion of the situation, good summary and message about it
My views are pretty much the same to what someone posted with minor disagreements.
"Is Vaxry a nice guy? No.
Is Vaxry a very young, arrogant and opinionated adult? Yes.
Are Vaxry's blogposts a problem? Yes, exchanges like these are very unsavory.
Is the Hyprland discord community toxic? It kind of is. (though this is very complicated, It's not all that clear as people are making it out to be).
With all of that out of the way, I think anyone who has read Lyude's emails and thinks this is fine is a bit insane. To me this whole thing is basically bully vs. bully. However one bully is just a kid with zero wisdom/life experience & the other bully is representing a big organization & is trying to rally support to their cause in a very political way that really shouldn't ever occur in any serious work environment, open source or not.
To me it seems like some folks at the FDO decided that they strongly dislike Vaxry (I can get this part, since he is not a very likeable guy) for various reasons & then decided to give him the middle finger in a really ill prepared and juvenile way."
They should have acted better given their station lol. Warning my ass, what they gave was essentially a big "We are gonna ban you because some members complained about what your community has done years ago" They didn't send a warning to see if he was gonna improve, they sent a notice as a way to provoke an reaction. I could smell the passive-aggressiveness of that letter coming miles away.
Even if I believed he was a racist bigot (I don't think they are, a little childish maybe I didn't find the jokes funny), I would still use the code there are a lot of people I don't like that make great products that's just how it is ( I don't know them at all so I neither like nor dislike them) eg. if you are using a lithium battery it doesn't mean you agree with how they are made etc etc. Banning someone for their alleged views is imo the antithesis of being open and free.
This wasn’t about views…. This was a stupid joke attempting designed to upset people. That not an opinion. Everyone is free to shut up and ignore how other people see themselves.
It is stupid to have opinions about how other people see themselves. It isn’t your choice. Just shut up and ignore it.
I find it disturbing that a person is so fragile that a 2/10 insult can cripple their entire existence. Maybe a little push back is an important service, we all get it in life.
@@tomverlaine728 Maybe it’s not up for you to decide how much it matters to someone else.
Probably worthwhile to mind your own business rather than being mad about someone else’s feelings.
cry harder lefties
@@dereknelson6980 Keep on crying, People getting upset about some words, is just plain ridiculous.
We should try to become normal again, and get rid of the crybaby woke stuff.
I think a lot of people would be surprised at how many people in the FOSS world are much bigger assholes and much worse crybabies than any of the people involved in this matter. The difference is that most of them communicate through more professional means than an unmoderated discord server.
It also shows the perils of letting engineers communicate instead of PR personnel.
Unlike with pr people who talk around the issue engineers are more willing to discuss the issue without a corprate approved gleam that stinks of shit
@@unpotatoedsalmon wait, this guy didn’t even make a statement, he abused his privilege because he thought it would be funny to intentionally upset someone that he deemed lesser.
Don’t confuse discourse for being a dumbass bully.
As a trans woman, I find my kind's newfound obsession with "preferred pronouns" actively detrimental to trans acceptance in every way. It further promotes the idea that we are different, that we are the dreaded Other-particularly when combined with such overblown outrage over the most diminutive deviation from our demands. What do we accomplish, brethren and "allies," by forming virtual lynch mobs and going after people over every little gaffe and jest? Is this your idea of "justice?" It certainly isn't mine. How can anybody say with a straight face that a mild prank is more toxic than trying to intimidate and harass someone into submission?
Even the trite and tenuous perennial argument-that, by using a product, you're subsidizing someone's alleged bigotry-doesn't hold water here, because this is FOSS; if any of you need an echo chamber that badly, make your own fork and don't let any of the icky knotsees work on it. Oh, but that wouldn't provide much of a dopamine hit, would it? This is nothing more than a struggle session. It has nothing to do with the project, it has nothing to do with the code, it is no more and no less than a gaggle of goons attacking someone for wrongthink purely to aggrandize themselves.
The hyperpoliticized screeching that's come to the FOSS community since 2016 has not resulted in better software. It has not resulted in better communities around that software. it has only served to provide malignant narcissists with yet still more power that they are fundamentally unfit to wield. People, it's time to *stop enabling narcissism.* Far too many people, for far too long, have attached themselves to FOSS projects with the sole goal of proclaiming their own importance. *These* are the bad actors who must be excised from the community-not a handful of people hanging out on the Discord server for a project so obscure that it doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page. If the very concept of FOSS hinges on the idea that it's "free as in free speech," then free speech must be preserved within the FOSS community-and if there is a bedrock principle of free speech, it's that offending someone is no justification to silence someone else, be it through displays of power, smear campaigns, or screeching.
Based
Based
My favorite comment so far, thank you
This is an extremely powerful comment. It is only seen once every 99999 years. Somehow it wasn't caught by Google's wrngthnk fltrs. 😮
Yes, I am considering leaving Linux. I already stopped contributing to open source. Because they have co-opted the entire movement and turned it p0litical.
Well that's a nothingburger of a situation that got blown out of proportion...
it's the power of internet cliques
@@excidium_: It's the power of incompatible personalities.
@@excidium_ wtf is a clique in this context?
@@xXRealXxreddit circlejerk, where people in bubbles agree with each other on the same insane stuff
@@envynoir ty
Trying to control an outside developer and associated community for words and actions that happen outside the organization covered by a Code of Conduct is essentially the worst case scenario that the CoC doomers warned us about.
seems like those people are always right (Snowden and privacy, and countless other situations.)
Doomers... bro, we just read the fucking room and ya know we kinda cheated. Twitter & facebook existed.... so we got to see exactly how it would go down with even very LARGE & WELL FUNDED, with illusions of accountability to go around.
The way you phrased that is like calling someone that knows what red & green make in physical paint or digital artwork...
I'm trying to be respectful, and I hope you understand the level of absuridity that in what you said. You should realize it's played out like this ...every signal time. Every group that played up those roles, every encounter with this kind of 'person' having an issue with another, every place where it's minority focused.
You really should step back and take a look at the playbook that happens every time, and who gets slammed and how it's reported by people.
I wish people would have listened, but alot of what's being said isn't a slippery slope... it's what happens.
The moment you align a ToS/CoC/Eula/w.e to one set of believes that quotes 'protects' one side over the other, it will be abused. Any attempt to curve/solve the issues from the one side will only land with accusations and attacks about you being a horriple person that doesn't deserve to exist or be where you are.
Why do you by "outside developer"? He literally contributed there several times.
@@5fr4ewq Right. So a contributor to the project. In contrast to an official developer of the Free desktop project.
@@JPBennett The code of conduct exists to set out the boundaries of communication of all contributors to a project. If you break the CoC there is no reason why the maintainers shouldn't act in accordance with their enforcement guidelines. He broke the CoC thus the maintainers want nothing to do with him.
Regarding The Wayland & Shilling Situation
10/10
How is having a Discord different from having an IRC or a Matrix server in terms of how the community interacts with it? Would you also say OSS projects shouldn't have IRC servers?
If IRC was popular yes, but since most people don't even know what IRC is or how to use it you get a very filtered down number of the most dedicated users. It's the same reason the kernel doesn't get many trolls, a mailing list is a lot of effort
@@BrodieRobertson IRC is not good for technical discussions anymore. You need to be able to share images and format code posts.
Simply having forum posts for code dev is not practical.
@@zezba9000embedding media links and formatting code is a client thing though, the protocol doesn't prevent that
@@excidium_ Something many open source devs get wrong. Standard "implementations". While standard protocols are good, the lack of standard implementations is a problem in many things. Something proprietary software doesn't run into as much.
I'd like to see a lot more standard libraries & software in Linux. For applications, less fragmentation would be nice. We don't need 50 different task managers. Just one that works better than Windows. ATM KDEs is the most feature complete for example. Gnomes is a joke.
Maybe I'm wrong, this is just my feeling.
@@zezba9000: Less fragmentation isn't important, more _categorized grades_ (e.g. "feature count", "stability", "user-base size", etc.) are important. When there's a particular thing (e.g. the IRC protocol) that you can judge a particular app by, then it's highly valuable to have that clearly described.
As a trans person, this is way less of an issue than freedesktop wants to portray it as. Sure, I may not represent every trans person, however I feel like most of us:
(a) can take a joke, and;
(b) don't take this shit seriously, esp when there are people doing actual discrimination (not whatever is supposedly wrong with what vaxry did) within FOSS.
edit: see my replies for clarifications on my personal position, clearly i was a bit too vague with what i meant :P
imo his actions are significantly overrepresented and just shrimply dont matter
As it stands it's like... He's a dickhead but most of us can ignore that and just get on with our life
I personally don't like him but banning him for a couple shitposts is retarded as hell
And this is the main problem. If people left things for others to get used to naturally and responded in kind instead of automatically assuming malice and starting smearing and cancelling campaigns. And this also plays into how the vocal minority is poisoning the pool because if everything is discrimination, then nothing is discrimination. This is not a problem exclusive to the trans community, but it's happening everywhere. And the only thing this helps create are extremists on both sides who could care less about genuine organic change and only want to see the other side burn. If anything, many of those codes of conduct are more discriminatory towards the people they're supposed to protect than anything.
Unsolicited opinion here.
That person makes you look worse. Both people were being d*cks, unable to just shut up & move on, but one side got a CoC, and the other side banned from contributing.
The Contributor Covenant facilitates drama like this. And that's by design.
I hate it when communities of anything serious are hosted on Discord, the community over there is just so deeply unserious in many ways.
Or ya know.. we can start telling those who are to sensitive to stuff it. Like unless the person is actively using a certain community to be hositile.. Maybe what happens in discord dumpster stays in discord dumpster.
I'm a bit worried about a split in FDO software or hyprland being abandoned. I do believe that opening up this idea that you could be banned for things that occur outside of the project is kinda insane. Due to just basic time constraints this leads to the promotion of witch hunts. Plenty of people could be barred from the project with this mentality.
I don't think (or at least hope so) that hyprland will be abandoned as it is almost single handedly made by one person, so as long as that one person keeps on it with a few others dedicated to help, it'll be alive.
I do agree that it may cause a split in FDO and just the fact that you can be banned for things that occur outside of the project will definitely have a huge impact going forward.
Hyprland is in quite a healthy development state but as with most projects like this its mainly maintained by one person that being vaxry, there are other big contributors but not to that level
@@BrodieRobertson I hope vaxry knows that he has support. He has created one of the best tiling desktop environments ever. He needs guidance not shame.
@@ImperiumLibertasI wouldn’t go that far, I still prefer LeftWM.
@@lucyinchat LeftWM is still just another X window manager. Hyprland is the only standalone Wayland compositor in wide usage besides Sway.
My initial thoughts on this situation, without looking into what exactly was said, are thus:
1) Why ban someone from a project for their conduct on a discord server?
2) Why would someone try to have the project removed from repositories over discord drama? (Sounds like a bad egg trying to take advantage of the situation to cause mischief)
3) If you go down the rabbit hole of banning talent from a project for reasons other than the quality of their work all your going to do is balkanize the project.
When it comes to matters of community like discord servers its perfectly reasonable to moderate it as seen fit, but what happens in a discord server needs to stay in the discord server.
one consideration to someone's quality of work should also be how well that person can collaborate with others to create more quality. vaxry in the past has been difficult to work with, for example, being a little aggressive when he was asked to make certain considerations so that hyprland could then be proceeded to be made available in the void linux repository. however i can see how sometimes it is necessary to take control of what happens to your own project.
One bunch of pixels on the screen fought others bunch of pixels in the screen and now we'll have less good Linux desktop b/c the entity responsible for that is banned someone who actually tried to improve things.
Instead of moderating other people's communities FDO should get their ass together and actually start to do something useful.
You like diversity and inclusion? Okay, good, how about making screen readers under Wayland to ACTUALLY WORK?
Yeah. The software should come first. The childish chan humor and the childish banning can both stop
@@blarghblargh I don't see a reason why childish humor in someone else's discord should be an FDO problem?
Has this developer did any child moves in the FDO gitlab or other FDO community places? Nah? Unban and apologize then.
FDO shouldn't be your mommy who controls how you behave on the internet.
@@hdkvSimple, people don't exist in a vacuum. Would you associate yourself with someone who's, say, openly in a murder cult so long as it's outside of that context? Obviously that's greatly exaggerated compared to the severity of this, but where, if anywhere, does that line separating them exist?
If fdo doesn't do anything useful then why do you care about it
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 It doesn't matter where the line is, because participation in chatrooms that are not moderated as the hegemonic ~diversity~ club would like is nowhere near it. It's not even on the same planet. You talk about "cults", but the only cultlike behavior I see here is the idea that associating with non-members is anathema.
The political views of the programmer should have no bearing on their code. That's like refusing to use things invented by racists. Most people in the past were racist, believed that homosexuals should be executed, and would be horrified by the modern world. None of that affects the things they invented.
If you were to pursue such a policy of avoiding things invented by racists would effectively exclude you from the industrial revolution. On the flip side, Alan Turing was gay. If you use computers, you rely on the work of a gay man.
The idea of avoiding all things created by people who you hate leaves you with nothing, therefore it's a ridiculous policy.
The swiveling office chair was invented by Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in "Notes on the State of Virginia" that he believed that Africans lacked the intelligence to participate in civilized society as equals to whites, while Native Americans, he believed, could be civilized to that level.
I'm not going to say whether I agree with Vaxry or not, because my point is that code should be judged only on it's own merit, and that the author of the code doesn't matter.
that's not really true lol. if you cite thomas jefferson in your argument, it probably doesnt hold up. trans rights are non-negotiable. if an oss author doesnt support them, i wont support their project
@@qtpaulie Go outside.
I think the issue here is less about the code itself, but more so about like, the fact that it's actively being developed, and that the main developer holding discriminatory views openly creates a very hostile environment for a lot of people to contribute.
and that's the real issue here, if you'd give a racist a major role in a project, you implicitly ban all black people from that project bc a racist guy is in charge. but even more, if you heavily associate with said project, black people might have reservations about you too, bc you associate with an open racist. It's not difficult to imagine I think how an entire ecosystem can suddenly appear hostile towards black people, and we would be losing out on great contributions from those people.
this principle goes for any minority group, any discrimination shouldn't be tolerated, also v much for the code's sake
Your analogy is flawed, because hyperland isn't an invention or a completed project. It's an ongoing open source project that seeks out contributors. This means that the community leaders should uphold a certain degree of professionalism and avoid discrimination and hostile environments. Failure to do this will result in supporters and potential contributors feeling unwelcome and leaving the project. Vaxry essentially confirms this in his response when he says that he instead of changing Oro's server nickname he should have banned them. A ban is an even stronger indicator that the user isn't welcome in the community than forced name change, and Vaxry's response clearly shows that he doesn't have a problem with that. This is core of the problem imo.
@@qtpaulie If you guys (talking about either sex here, born or adopted) can't find some way to meet in the middle, a lot of things are going to be doomed. Why not the dull grey "they" or using the given name if there is disagreement over the morality of using trans he/she. Because there is a whole side that feels they are getting railroaded and the worse it gets the more likely gratuitously oppressive politicians are going to get voted for and then everybody will suffer. For these politicians won't want certain people to be in the closet/passing -- they will want them to be buried UNDER the closet, as it were. Liberal politics has self-toxified by taking things on to such an extreme, as best I can see, and it is a screaming shame that it has. Sure I'm a Christian of fairly classic beliefs and still want to live in peace as far as I can morally go. I also see much of the will of Jesus in modern liberal politics -- with the glaring exception of "this thing" which is more than a fly in the perfume, it's a honkin' rotting tarantula.
At any rate, I've been fortunate enough to have never seen this pop up in an office -- yet.
I rish y'all rotsa ruck. This carries the vibes and energy of two religions of mutual hatred going up against one another. Quite often humanity has come up with various ways of agreeing to disagree on one thing but avoiding the clashes and being civil on other things. But here? It seems to have failed. God help everybody.
And this is one of the reasons why I stopped trying to be part of any FLOSS community. People are more concerned with agendas, jargon, names and politics than solving problems. And somehow, they think that's gonna play in the world where people use OSes like an application platform and could care less what it is or what it represents as long as they can use their software of choice to solve their problems or if the tool you developed actually solves their problems. Where is this endless drivel about codes of conduct, politics and drama making any of the software, platforms and community any better?
This is not strictly a free software problem, these people are injecting themselves into every community. Just ignore them and carry on.
Correct. This is why software progress is extremely slow on Linux. So many are on the sp3ctr7m and h1j4ck FOSS for their ag3nd4s. It is why I stopped sharing code too. Nobody is ever pure enough for them.
I'm happpy to use products from projects with CoCs empowering toxic people and their ideology, I just never donate or contribute anything.
People needs to learn to separate personal life and professional life.
You won't agree with everyone, that's pretty normal.
Perhaps this is a wake up call. Perhaps it was a terrible idea after all to structure Codes of Conduct to function like ideological purity tests. Maybe, just maybe, FOSS development shouldn't be a soapbox for anyone's political or social activism. I don't understand why anyone in the FOSS space would ever be told they can't use or contribute to a project because they hold stance X on issue Y and by the way issue Y is completely unrelated to the FOSS project or it's development... Please! Somebody make it make sense.
Were you not informed that once you entered the real world you would encounter people who have different view points? Were you not informed that those people have every right to have different view points?
I literally add custom "Conduct Yourself However You Want" CoC to my projects. It is pretty brief, but essentially just states that I am not your mother or your spiritual leader, and am not going to dictate how you act. If I don't want you interacting with my code, I will remove you, simple as. I don't need an excuse or exhaustive list of nebulous and subjective buzz-words to describe it. People really need to stop being so sensitive about everything and come back to reality.
But that's not what happened, FD cannot limit who contributes to projects not maintained by them afaik
Edit: it has just come to my attention that you were probably talking about how they can't submit to upstream anymore, in that case I start seeing your point
I really don't know if what happened on the Discord was particularly professional, but I don't really like the idea of banning someone from another online space just because they behaved inappropriately in one online space. It seems very harsh and pretty much sets up a scenario such that if you screw up once, you've made enemies of anyone who sympathizes with the person you hurt, forever.
I get that Red Hat/FreeDesktop might be worried about how being associated with Vaxry would hurt their brand, but in my view as long as he was following their rules on their official channels, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ban him. I know that this "offsite rule enforcement" thing is becoming popular, such that if you violate a community's rules in a different place before you even join it, you can be held accountable and banned even if you had not yet agreed to follow those rules when you engaged in the behavior, or if the community you behaved that way in had different rules to start with. I don't like that policy and I know that things never used to work that way on the Internet... it used to be that if you screwed up and got banned from one place, then you were banned from that one place, and that was it, you were free to continue following the rules of other communities and not have something offsite used as an excuse to ban you... that is, your behavior within a given community wasn't assumed to be a reflection of how you conduct yourself within the rules of another. Now it seems like it's very much a "there is but one universal bar, if you don't meet it, you are immediately banned from nearly everything except for communities who have no problem with your behavior and who won't expect you to improve."
I feel that because of this policy, I can never do anything high-profile because... if some stuff I said decades ago when I was a teenager was brought back up again, that would be enough to get me banned from almost half the Internet. And the only reason that hasn't happened is because I'm not high-profile enough to be on that many people's radars. If I ever was, I would be screwed. I guess the moral of the story is, if you're a normal person who can't behave perfectly all the time and meet these high standards consistently, don't be in a leadership position and do your best to avoid attention. Use lots of pseudonyms and don't worry about getting credit.
The pre-emptive warning mail was the most asinine shit that was in no way needed and I completely understand vaxrys reply to it.
That mail should never have been sent unless vaxry actually crossed the line on fd.o, but he didn't (yet).
Sure he could have responded better, but seriously how would any normal adult respond if they got a warning for something they didn't do? Laugh? Point out the hypocrisy? Point out the possible power abuse?
I would've been nastier than he did tbh. Tired of woke corporate America and their loony bullshit trying to shove the opinions of 1% down the throats of the 99%
@@hopperstreams4487you're the 1%
@@hopperstreams4487bro you have a doomer pfp. You're already in the pipeline lmao
@@卛 Fortunately not, you have no idea how wrong you are 🙄🤡
That's just free speech, man. Vaxerski is free to say and do whatever he wants. FDO just told him, if you're continuing this behaviour, we will not work with you. He STILL has the right to do and say whatever he wants. They have the right to not work with him. That's how it works. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your own actions. You can say what you want, others have the right to thing you're a moron.
I don't understand projects that use discord. You're asking for trouble. Can't possibly moderate it, the chat system encourages sloppy reporting and it isn't helpful to people trying to resolve their problem. Frankly, projects that are ran through discord are something I look at as something that will implode. Nobody knows when, but sooner or later the fact that the dev has to maintain a repo and self moderate a discord server with hundreds or thousands of people will wear them down
Literally none of this would have happened if there was no discord server. And I will never understand peope thay run a discord server when they obviously can't moderate it. Youre shooting yiurself in thr foot for no clear reason and no benefit
Nobody would even be talking about such a thing as a "community" if it's just peope that use a project.
So, are you asking to stop defending yourself when someone abuses their position of power (e.g. lyude from FDO)?
No I'm saying you're going to have an uphill battle no matter what your position is
@@BrodieRobertson Oh yes it is an uphill battle. The whole life is an uphill battle but at least some people have self respect to not bow down to freaks enjoying bureaucratic power.
@@neonmidnight6264vaxry's response was a mental illness personified
I don't think a developer, or their project, should be punished for what their community does, or acts like. I'm coming into this fresh off the Tech Over Tea Episode with Vaxry. I have seen Nicco's video about this subject as well, and having spent a little time in the server, all I can say is the support i got assistance for was superb, but I don't think I would just hang out there. I don't really have much coding knowledge. I don't think I could really contribute anything significant to the project. About the best I can do is assist with troubleshooting issues that I had previously encountered.
Honestly i don't agree with hyprland not needing a discord server, it's been nothing but helpful and welcoming to me, fixing bugs, having some conversations in general chat etc. I didn't have that expierence elsewhare. I dont' want to take sides here, but tarring everyone over the same brush is also not a solution.
Yeah, Brodie didn't really acknowledge how much Hyprland emphasizes Discord as a support forum. While my personal take is that Discord is a *garbage* platform to use as a support forum, even Minecraft is using it as their official feedback "site" now, so I think I've lost that battle...
The idea is that there would be an alternative support channel, like github discussions or something. His point is partially validated by the stupid mess we find ourselves in. Is general conversation/banter important to a window manager, especially when it comes with such risks? That being said, these nutjobs would cancel his project from leaked private conversations anyways, so at the end of the day it probably wouldn't change anything. I wonder if there's even a solution to this issue, besides just bifurcating the OSS community... I'd be in favour of that tbh, maybe we should just start using the SQLite CoE or something as a signal for these freaks.
I think support forums are great but I don't know if you need live chat to have a useful support forum
@@GSBarlev I think most forget how "modern" forums/mailinglists can be with things such as Hyperkitty or Discourse which are much better as a support platform alongside any chat system.
I think general chat support is great, but Discord is not the place to do that on. Not only because it's closed-soure and not libre, but also because it's just a crap place to be in. There are too many people there
Vaxry sounds like an unagreeable person. Yet he also appears to be pretty damn productive.
My take is that his code can stand on its own. If people have a problem with him, let them make a determination of whether they want to use that code or not. Let people determine if they want to associate with him or not.
I really can't believe that this has blown up this much.
I mean seriously, what happened was not the best way to deal with this situation but also no reason to try to remove the project. There should have been a simple apology and the issue should have been resolved.
There are people out there who treat other people way worse. This is of course an insult to some, but it is way less of an insult than if Linus lashes out at a contributor asking (for Linus) stupid questions.
And what now? Everyone should also delete Linux? No of course not, since you have to separate the project and the people behind it. Especially if the people behind it aren't that bad.
Yeah it is kind of different when Linus says your code or idea or implementation sucks balls vs you are not a really person that don't deserve the same dignity that you would expect.
For his very acerbic nature being born Finnish after all he always plays the ball and not the person.
@@tibbydudeza It is all in relation how much a person values that aspect. If your pronouns are important to you, you would take great offense when someone misgenders you. On the other side if you take great pride in your code and maybe even are a fan of Linus because of his great achievements, it would hurt greatly to get insulted for your goodwill.
And I didn't quite get the meaning of the last part.
@@-cdz- The difference isn't in *how* insulted someone feels. It's *why* the insult was levied in the first place. Being criticized for your work hurts, but it's not the same thing as being criticized for who you are. A better analogy would be if Linus lashed out because the author is Italian (just as a random example, I have no idea what Linux thinks about Italians).
@@-cdz- Oh it is English saying - means by all means disagree with on the issue but never get personal.
Linus said nVidia sucks because of their Optimus switching tech was broken - he never said nVidia CEO Jensen Huang should die a thousands deaths or needs to go back home to Taiwan.
That is the meaning essentially.
One side of this fight is hosting a package of ideas that says it's a moral atrocity to associate with anyone who doesn't adhere to the same ideas. Something like this outcome was written in stone the moment someone from that camp recognized Vaxry as an enemy. Totalitarian memeplexes be that way.
Vaxry is pretty young and immature. What's the excuse for everyone else involved?
Narcissistic injury
Mental.
yeah, fight eachother over pronouns, cancel projects and people, as long as youre not fighting those who *actually* oppress and exploit you. make sure to never think on your own or question your ideology. this is the most important thing in the world, not unity, not solidarity, not liberation.
Oppression may seem to come from the top down, but it starts bottom up. Governments are made of the people in them.
@@blarghblargh Yeah sure, Vaxry is going to spearhead an age of oppression for trans people /s
Chasing your tail just as intended
A teacher in Ireland is in jail indefinitely for refusing to call a boy a girl. This is about liberation, there are very bad people in the world and they want complete submission.
Exactly what ideology are you talking about? Because existence of trans and non-binary people is not an ideology. If you think it is, then you are just uneducated and misinformed.
Ok, but where did Nicco's video on "Why Hyprland was banned from Freedesktop" go? Unlisted?
He likes to stream and then cut it down to a shortened video lately
adding to brodie's comment, the uploaded video can be found in the description.
@@sylvercritter Thanks man! Found it!
Yeah I caught the livestream but went back to see the beginning. By the time I had seen it it didn't exist anymore.
I just kinda regret watching in fullscreen because of the comments not being synced up.
I like to see comments on these kinds of things because I have been in cases where is I hadn't seen what comments were not being read, I would have been misinformed.(Such as source available devs, deciding to call their software open source.)
I honestly doubt I missed to much, but I should consider personal video and livestream backup caches so I can see things as they were when uploaded.
This had all kind of left my mind since yesterday, I'm glad this comments reminded me.
Thanks!
"Treating someone as worse because of their lack of understanding of an issue." Well, Arch users will be breaking *that* rule often.
As a trans woman, I do agree vaxry has...questionable opinions. But i disagree entirely with his ban. I think it's even more unfortunate since there was discussion about hyprcursor becoming an FDO standard.
Exactly what I wanted to see on open source projects: Politics /s
Literally the reason FOSS exist is political
@@5fr4ewq Literally not true, nor even make sense, unless you are mistakenly confusing FOSS for the the Free Software Foundation (FSF). Surely you aren't claiming that every person who pushes to a public repo is making some concerted political statement?
@@ForeverZer0 that's exactly what they're doing across these comment threads lol
@@UlcerousAxis The comments section on YT regarding a video with a tangential political connection is not open-source code. No amount of cope or gaslighting is going to change my mind about this commonsense and self-evident truth.
It's happening in every different type of group. Activists come in, get offended and throw a fit, before you know it there's a cancellation mob gunning for you. I say it's the activists because sane and reasonable people do not try and destroy a person and project simply because that person said/did something they didn't like. The weaponized fragility is off the charts.
Why do people care about the maintainers of the project? if it's good software that I enjoy and it's not violating my privacy I will probably keep using it.
Say that again after trying to report a bug and being roasted instead.
@@mk72v2oq I am talking more from the pov of an end-user here contributing would be a different story
@@mk72v2oq coc dont help here, im pretty sure gnome is all formal and bullshit, they still ignore bug reports about any gtk desktop tools effected by their opinions on themeing
@@mk72v2oq you mean when you wonder why a bug hasn't been fixed and its because the developer of hyprland is not allowed to contribute to wlroots (the wayland compositor library that hyprland uses) or any other freedesktop project?
@@mk72v2oq not using said project is an option
I don’t agree with Vax on most things, but I do agree with RedHat abusing their position to harass and force other FOSS projects to do want them to do.
Not even redhat, its a redhat employee using their company email thinking it will make them look cooler.
@@Hellscaped yes, but redhat as a company (and many of their employees) have a habit of invading other FOSS projects and essentially taking them over. And that’s if they aren’t writing their own code and then making all of their other projects rely on it, forcing it to be a required piece of the software stack even of distro or people don’t want to use it.
FreeDesktop is Redhat? I saw everything now.
@@5fr4ewq let out all your anger on that strawman - you're actually seething rn
@@UlcerousAxis XD
I've been trying to run Hyprland or sway in my samsung zfold5 with termux and termux-x11 (I was told termux-x11 supports wayland) does anyone know any source or any documentation that can help me to set it up?
When someone says "X is bad and toxic, here's a link" that just sounds like an immature and a whiny behavior. Just because a couple of people having an argument over some bullshit it doesn't means that whole project should be dumped.
Personally I don't care, Hyprland is by far my favorite WM and im gonna keep on using it without giving a flying F about someone crying over pronounce
If you can ban people from freedesktop based on the rude things they do or say then shouldn't torvald be also banned? I don't this was a professional descision and was very much biased. I haven't read from all sources but this is my initial opinipn.
Pretty sure the email vaxry shared says he didn’t get banned for saying or doing rude things.
The ban wasn't about being rude, rudeness is just the excuse. He was banned for rejecting far left ideology. If he was just rude, even much ruder than he was or ever could be in reality, he would get a pass as long as his target was right wing, they would in fact celebrate it.
Yeah, let's ban Torvalds for publicly harassing Nvidia.
If a person changed my nickname (does not matter what, even one letter), I would be very pissed off. My nickname is my property, and as long as it does not violate common guidelines, no one has any right to interfere with it. It is a super dick move.
Now, hyperland package does not need to suffer because of some discord shitheads. I see literally no relation.
Dont come to my server then ,I make a sport of changing stupid nicknames
Brodie can you talk about Vulkan WSI? It's something that is coming Nvidia drivers 560 this year
Right now, the hyprland community is like the 6 year old that learns to say a curse word and repeat it constantly, except they are teenagers that think they are cool and edgy by doing that.
Good luck to all you all. But for me, a community based on mean spirited bullism of immature individuals is hardy the one I want to trust my system with. So I personally wash my hands of it.
But the project and the server are different, no?
If you think otherwise, you can always check the code for potential mean words.
@@Skelterbane69 the problem is not only the words. The problem is to trust the code with such privilage of a bunch of immature people which at each point could do something that they may think is funny. If you believe that the people writing the code are acting more judicously than people running the server, go ahead. Trust them. I don't think other compositors are offering much less, so i just trust those that show more care towards the community that are helping to build the code.
This whole situation was absolutely on my Linux 2024 bingo card. Hell yeah. 😎 One step closer to bingo.
Ah yes excluding someone from a society or forum of communication entirely for having an opinion you do not like in an entirely unrelated forum and on an entirely unrelated subject....
Surely this isn't a highly problematic and severely oppressive manipulation tactic that's been used in any problematic historical context at all...
I can't seem to think of any examples, other than the Red Scare, Nazi Germany, the USSR, the DPRK, ...
Nothing says "Nobody cares about pronouns" as changing the person name to indicate how little you care.
At this point I don't care how other side is wrong to dig the truth and read blogs, changing username is a cringe.
this is because the people passionate about using preferred pronouns would rather people that don't respect them, respect them; than respect them (preferred pronouns) themselves enough to make them a consistent system of referring to people
I'm using Hyprland for over a year and I don't intend to change that. I talked to Vaxry over a few issues on Github and yes, he can be kind of an ass sometimes, so what? I should stop using Hyperland because he's an ass? Hell no.
If Hyprland gets compromised due to such pettiness, I'm going to have an aneurysm.
Hyprland is the only wm/de that I like.
People need to separate the art from the artist, or in this case, the code from the programmer.
> separate the art from the artist
This is a weird argument, given that Hitler was a painter.
I tend to side with the people who *don't* try to control and regulate what others are doing in their own spaces.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of people who control and alter your display name against your will.
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 Then you're free to leave *their* Discord server. Bot account.
@@rv6502 And the FDO is free to remove people who don't comply with the rules of their own space from it.
@@icantcomeupwithnames469 Except it wasn't in their own space. FDO are trying to control someone's behaviour *outside* of their own space, it's clearly stated in their own emails. You're being disingenuous.
@@icantcomeupwithnames469it was a moderator response to abusive behaviour.
We're heading toward purity testing for both contributors and users of FOSS. This will not end well. If Hyprland is suddenly disappeared from distributions under pressure to conform or be shamed, it will be an escalation. Same if contributors and users are extradited from FOSS.
Heading towards? We've been there for years
It’s just political morons being political morons that ruin everything for the rest of us
There has been an SJW effort to eradicate non-believers for years, this is nothing new. Just look at the Linux CoC for example.
The activists infiltrated for at least 10 years and rose in ranks. We are just seeing the final power grab now.
The actlvists infiltrated for at least 10 years and rose in ranks. We are just seeing the final power grab now.
The "(who/cares)" thing is pretty tame and not worth starting an argument over. If you do not like a community that is not yours, that just makes you a control freak. Just do not go into that community. Going into someone else's community to try and make them change is extremely toxic.
Using a bigger community to bully a smaller community is very toxic. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
No one "went into the community" to change it. Vaxery and his community have the right to do and say whatever they want. But others have the right to tell them to fuck off and not work with them. That's just free speech.
@@tkg__ 1: That would be freedom of association not freedom of speech.
2: She literally went in there and brought everything off the discord because she did not get what she wanted. She tried to get the project taken off other distros. She then used her power at a large company and a larger community to kick him out of the larger community. That sounds like strong arming to try to change a community to me.
The main issue with the "just focus on the code" people is that that statement typically comes when someone calls out harassment or demands that something be done about harassment in the community instead of coming in at the point the harassment initially happens. If "focus on the code" is really the critical thing then why tolerate any harassment in the first place?
Was someone harassed, or did someone chose to take offense over edgy memes?
@@pastenml you act as if you didn't watch the video and read *any* of the links Brodie shared. Maybe do that?
Let me guess, you think banter is harassment too? I don't like how people constantly try to water down words until they mean nothing anymore.
Had to clean your room? Trauma. Didn't want cake today? Eating disorder. Not being considerate on a bad day? Narcissistic personality disorder. Saying race shouldn't matter for selecting a candidate? Racist. Being down today? Depressed. Wanting the government to spend money? Socialist.
What was there to be actual harassment that wasn't perpetrated by both sides? And why shouldn't a personal discord server be able to eject people that act in a way they don't want to have in there?
The way I see it, they held an art workshop out of their garage. People liked the art being made and kept watching. It's entertainment. Some people wanted to contribute with art supplies, or their own paintings. Suddenly someone starts to talk about how the art is not good for them and that the workshop held out of their garage where people can join for free isn't professional enough and that they must change. I get the indignation against that. "Who put you in charge of my house? Be sensible or get out."
And then they are notified that they won't be able to work at Red Hat if they wanted to.
@@Mankepanke everyone and their mothers already agree that harassment happened. Even the guy himself kind-of sort-of apologized for it. Learn to read the room.
@@Xankill3r No, it was just some people being mean to each other. Sure, semantic argument. I agree that they shouldn't have changed the name, and I agree that it was good that they apologized.
But is it really right to still hold this over everyone? It wasn't the developer doing the name change, and they implemented a CoC, and they apologized, and it's been two(!) years.
Why complain and ban _now_ after so much time and good faith from the wrongdoers? What else is needed to get these cry-bullies to let it go? 10 years and a public flogging? It looks unhinged to get so upset for something so minor so long ago.
I definitely agree with that OpenSUSE guy. If the project itself isn't toxic, then does this matter? It's childish discord drama that that the average user doesn't know or care about. If you got rid of everything you owned where terrible people were involved in its making, you'd be naked and homeless.
If I let a project's community of users influence my using that project... well let's just say I probably wouldn't be a desktop linux user. The unruly 4chan type crowd is obnoxious but so are the overly uptight clowns who think not being offended or challenged is a god given right. To hell with both sides as far as I'm concerned.
I think the both sides mentality is really bad
One wouldn't even be a Microsoft user -- various releases or leaks of its source code have, I hear, turned up some pretty raunchy stuff in comments.
If only people understood the meaning of Free and Open....
Lul.... victim stack gets to define those words.
The free in free and open stands for freedom. Ironic that they banned someone for what totally qualifies as free speech.
@@ImperiumLibertas lmao what. discrimination and hate speech isnt free speech
@@qtpaulie it sure is 🤗 show me where it says "freedom of speech except for hate speech"
@@ImperiumLibertasright: Free Speech. their nickname being censored because it doesn’t align with the views of the developer/discord moderator. Goes both ways, and korn received his sacrifice.
There will always be people who like to stir up the smallest possible drama as if it was the worst day in human history, neither can you please everyone.
In fact, on the internet it is way easier to make people pissed off.
Tectone, an example of a man getting sent death threats on Twitter on a daily basis for over 3 years, I know this very well.
When the pronoun situation happened, it could've been resolved in a 30-minute Discord call, and no one would've know. However, due to the blog posts, Mastodon and especially the Reddit post, it got way out of hand.
I'll be real though, I had no idea hyprland even had a Discord, nor would I really care. It's a pretty good piece of software in my experience.
This is informative and unfortunate
Imagime using Linux unironically
LOL. I saw Chris Titus' video and came immediately here. I was thinking "Where is Brodie's video?"
Thank you for covering this.
I'd pay money to have someone arbitrate a debate between the two parties.
I think the result of that would be very predictable. You see that on Twitter every day.
@@DeviRuto imo its worthwhile to try having a discussion even if there's a < 1% chance it leads to some positive outcome. Would you want to live in a world where no one tries to make things better because trying is hard and has a high risk of failure?
I think a great moderator can generate understanding on both sides rather than have it turn into a pointless flame war. I believe this is something the open source community needs but probably doesn't even know why it might be valuable.