Zach, great advice and insight as always. So grateful you are willing to share your wealth of experience. I've only been lucky enough to run the MFS once at relatively low water (2.0-1.7). It was a great trip and few things I learned that I will pass along. 1- do your homework and create a list of camps and alternatives for each nigh before yo attend the camp assignment meeting. Try and be flexible and reasonable with other groups, especially early in the meeting. That way you will have some bargaining power with later camps. 2- listen to the rangers and outfitters at the meeting, they will give you good advice on camps, pacing and other useful information. Some privateers will tell you that the rangers and outfitters are in cahoots and will screw you out of the best camps but I did not find that to be the case. In fact, the best advice I got was from an outfitter and we got one of the best camps on the river IMHO (Elk Bar). If you've read this far I do have one burning question: what is that sweet hoody you're wearing in the video and where can I get one? Thanks again Zach, hope to see you on the river soon!
As a private boater I enjoy taking my time in the canyon on that last day. Taking our time, having lunch, etc gets us to the ramp normally 2-4PM. It works out great as the ramp is normally pretty empty around that time. Makes sense to let those in a hurry get there first so they can get packed up and on the road.
Greatly appreciate you for taking this subject on. It often scares me the preseason questions that get asked. The MFS is a very special place because it requires a high level of boating skill, group dynamics and ability to deal with unforeseen challenges. My first trip was in 2005 and I never even saw past Velvet. Don't ask about preseason Marsh unless you truly know the level of commitment you are asking about. Preseason is a commitment for experienced groups that are dialed. When the road opens be honest with what you are committing to; this is not Disneyland and there are very limited escape options. The permit is only a piece of paper that will not save you. Most folks don't make the decision to launch at high water. High water shows up a couple days later and you have to deal with it or sit on the beach. Rescues on the upper sections require miles to clean up; there is no pool to collect your people and gear in. Small groups are easier to manage. Big groups can be done but they have been built over years of mentors teaching and students growing into the challenges. A cold wet day on a scree field should not be the place you patch a boat for the first time. There is a big difference in a permit holder and a trip leader. If you are unaware of what you are getting into, take a moment to find someone who will lead your trip and fill it with experienced boaters. Then the next time you can be a better judge of who you invite. Make sure the ratio is what the trip leader is comfortable with. As the permit holder you will eventually have to say no to someone; just try not to make it the TL. Work your way up to this amazing place; it shouldn't be rushed just because you won a lottery. If you decide this isn't the right time, be kind and pass it back so that someone else is given the chance to prepare and organize. Just because the requirements for returning a permit is within a couple months (?) of being issued and you can possibly use high water as a reason to cancel, it is poor form and bad Karma to hold off until the last minute to decide. It takes the chance away from someone else. SYOTR
I'd point out that perhaps boating the Lochsa would be a good bellwether for this trip. With class 4 pool drop roadside rapids, it's a relatively non committing test of boat handling. There are however more skills needed than just boat handling...
Great Video. Both my trips were early July and the weather was fantastic (Probably just lucky). The levels were 3.2 to 3.6 on the first day, which is a really fun level, and about 2.4 to 2.8 on the 6th day - Perfect! The only advice I can give is: whatever amount you think you need for your favorite drink, double that! I ran out of beer on the 4th day my first trip. 2nd trip i doubled the beer and all was right with the world. :) Yes, practice, practice, practice regardless of the craft you are going to be in. I was in a WW Kayak so I hit every Class IV I could leading up to the trip and made damn sure I had class IV skills and a "Bomb-Proof" roll.
I just watched your video I did subscribe to your channel.. I have a trip planned at the end of June. I’m not sure which company I’m going to be with a friend of mine did it for me the question I have for you do I need to get a dry suit? Thank you.
Awesome info! thx! what mileage do recommend people trying to do per day on the first couple days in low water (1.9'ish) should we do less miles the first couple days then more starting on day 3 or still do about the same every day? 6 day float. thx!
Blackadar outsources their meal prep to a local lady in Salmon I think but there are meal plans available. We chose a meal package for our private main salmon trip in 2019 and it was an 8 out of 10 I guess. The meal plans are nice on multiday trips particularly if you are coming from out of state. (we drove from GA) I think most people would be more satisfied with doing their own meal prep but honestly this is an added headache on what is already a logistically challenging venture. Plus if your group is not made up of people who are accustomed to multi day meal prep I would recommend buying a meal plan especially if you are already renting gear. It would have easily added a full day of shopping and packing had we made our own menu. The risk you run with a meal plan is they inevitably contain things that one may find to be dead weight. For example a box of chocolate cake mix, while it may sound good to some I would have traded the space for 6 more cans of smoked oysters and some crackers. Thank you for addressing the preplanning issue. Minimizing the negative surprises leave more room for good ones.
Good information, Thank you. I would like to hear your thoughts on using an 18' cataraft on this river. Obviously you carry less weight than a 18' self bailer. But what about low water and navigating the rocks? Seems the self bailers run soft an slide over them.
What would be the best way to advocate for private boaters getting a larger percentage of the available permits? At 1,000 to 1 odds it seems like I'll never get a permit for the Middle Fork.
You’re probably not going to have much luck advocating for more use but aid you want to try a good place to start is to read the management plan and then talk with the forest service. The odds are about 70:1.
Does anyone have a solid way to figure out when the road is open? BLM on the rogue always does a great job posting what shuttle routes are open, but I haven’t found that information on the USFS website.
So if you get a permit I think you should think about picking a team for the trip. I agree if you are not a great boater may not be best to go off and lead a trip without adequate experience as you said and I agree with that. But you can easily find very experienced boaters who did not get a permit who can provide a lot of knowledge about the river etc. I think people who get in over their head don’t make an honest assessment and fill in
sorry hit wrong button, fill in for their deficiencies if need be. First year applied for permit, no luck. But if had got one I know plenty of people who could help in areas I am not good at. But I have good river skills so yes you have to know how to get down a class4 river.
First GG video I've disliked. In general, I love the value that the GG videos add to the boating community. Just a brief explanation as to why I've disliked, for Zach: The two pleas to give up your permit if you don't meet the ambiguous ZC experience standards just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with the thing about getting out of the way of sweep boats (in general, up river boats are responsible for distancing from down river craft). On another note, Different people have different standards of risk assessment, of required skills to do activity X, etc. We don't need to turn the MFS into the risk-averse/safety-at-all-cost 1950's American suburbs. [Powell would have run it without the safety of gps or a mile-by-mile guide. ] Of course, we also don't want to turn the river into a all-out shitshow. That's why there is a permit system, but that's also why there is no qualification test!
A lot of people call me with permit in hand an little or no skills. The ask if I can train them before the season so they’re ready to go. Unfortunately I’m not really able to do that and I’m not sure anyone can. My goal was to help answer that question I get regularly.
I appreciate most of Zachs videos, as well as this one. In his defense, not that he needs it, Zach advocates often for people to have an adventure even if a little over their heads, as long as safety is observed. But I would agree that the Middle Fork should be respected. If folks aren't prepared, or at least assemble a strong team around them, maybe giving up is wise. The Middle Fork, even at low water, is a commitment, and class 4 skills are good to have.
Really? I think the rangers even mention to get out of the way of sweep boats. And you should. As far as turning back permits if you aren't qualified - that is wise advice. When you have done CPR on someone or seen the aftermath then come talk to me.
Solid video. I’m a 20 year Ocoee guide and this was helpful to hear more about west coast levels being my home river is dam controlled.
There are dam controlled rivers out West too
Pretty right on man. If only everyone would follow some of these ideas...thanks for trying.
Hardshell kayaking it was good at 1.7..., but spent far more time helping rafters get off rocks than kayaking. :)
Zach,
great advice and insight as always. So grateful you are willing to share your wealth of experience. I've only been lucky enough to run the MFS once at relatively low water (2.0-1.7). It was a great trip and few things I learned that I will pass along. 1- do your homework and create a list of camps and alternatives for each nigh before yo attend the camp assignment meeting. Try and be flexible and reasonable with other groups, especially early in the meeting. That way you will have some bargaining power with later camps. 2- listen to the rangers and outfitters at the meeting, they will give you good advice on camps, pacing and other useful information. Some privateers will tell you that the rangers and outfitters are in cahoots and will screw you out of the best camps but I did not find that to be the case. In fact, the best advice I got was from an outfitter and we got one of the best camps on the river IMHO (Elk Bar). If you've read this far I do have one burning question: what is that sweet hoody you're wearing in the video and where can I get one? Thanks again Zach, hope to see you on the river soon!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. That hoody is from a 1620 Workwear.
Would you do a short video about sweep boats
Please search our videos before ask us to do a video
Thanks @@GearGarageTV. Great information on that craft
Thank you so much! I'm beginning to prepare for a grand canyon trip in a few years and I'm using your videos so much for education.
I’m glad you find them useful!
As a private boater I enjoy taking my time in the canyon on that last day. Taking our time, having lunch, etc gets us to the ramp normally 2-4PM. It works out great as the ramp is normally pretty empty around that time. Makes sense to let those in a hurry get there first so they can get packed up and on the road.
Greatly appreciate you for taking this subject on. It often scares me the preseason questions that get asked. The MFS is a very special place because it requires a high level of boating skill, group dynamics and ability to deal with unforeseen challenges. My first trip was in 2005 and I never even saw past Velvet. Don't ask about preseason Marsh unless you truly know the level of commitment you are asking about. Preseason is a commitment for experienced groups that are dialed. When the road opens be honest with what you are committing to; this is not Disneyland and there are very limited escape options. The permit is only a piece of paper that will not save you. Most folks don't make the decision to launch at high water. High water shows up a couple days later and you have to deal with it or sit on the beach. Rescues on the upper sections require miles to clean up; there is no pool to collect your people and gear in. Small groups are easier to manage. Big groups can be done but they have been built over years of mentors teaching and students growing into the challenges. A cold wet day on a scree field should not be the place you patch a boat for the first time. There is a big difference in a permit holder and a trip leader. If you are unaware of what you are getting into, take a moment to find someone who will lead your trip and fill it with experienced boaters. Then the next time you can be a better judge of who you invite. Make sure the ratio is what the trip leader is comfortable with. As the permit holder you will eventually have to say no to someone; just try not to make it the TL. Work your way up to this amazing place; it shouldn't be rushed just because you won a lottery. If you decide this isn't the right time, be kind and pass it back so that someone else is given the chance to prepare and organize. Just because the requirements for returning a permit is within a couple months (?) of being issued and you can possibly use high water as a reason to cancel, it is poor form and bad Karma to hold off until the last minute to decide. It takes the chance away from someone else. SYOTR
Great thoughts and advice. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah buddy!
I'd point out that perhaps boating the Lochsa would be a good bellwether for this trip. With class 4 pool drop roadside rapids, it's a relatively non committing test of boat handling. There are however more skills needed than just boat handling...
Excellent as usual. Thanks for taking the time to put the video out. W
I second Zac's advice. If you are trying figure it out, just turn in your permit. 😏
In fact, just to be safe everyone who got a permit should turn it back in. Safety first😉
*advice
Great Video. Both my trips were early July and the weather was fantastic (Probably just lucky). The levels were 3.2 to 3.6 on the first day, which is a really fun level, and about 2.4 to 2.8 on the 6th day - Perfect! The only advice I can give is: whatever amount you think you need for your favorite drink, double that! I ran out of beer on the 4th day my first trip. 2nd trip i doubled the beer and all was right with the world. :) Yes, practice, practice, practice regardless of the craft you are going to be in. I was in a WW Kayak so I hit every Class IV I could leading up to the trip and made damn sure I had class IV skills and a "Bomb-Proof" roll.
As a private boater, my trips are usually longer than commercial trips. My group tends to eddy out when large commercial trips catch up to us.
I just watched your video I did subscribe to your channel..
I have a trip planned at the end of June. I’m not sure which company I’m going to be with a friend of mine did it for me the question I have for you do I need to get a dry suit? Thank you.
No you don't need a drysuit
Awesome info! thx! what mileage do recommend people trying to do per day on the first couple days in low water (1.9'ish) should we do less miles the first couple days then more starting on day 3 or still do about the same every day? 6 day float. thx!
Yes I would suggest doing shorter mileage days the first 2 days.
Blackadar outsources their meal prep to a local lady in Salmon I think but there are meal plans available. We chose a meal package for our private main salmon trip in 2019 and it was an 8 out of 10 I guess. The meal plans are nice on multiday trips particularly if you are coming from out of state. (we drove from GA) I think most people would be more satisfied with doing their own meal prep but honestly this is an added headache on what is already a logistically challenging venture. Plus if your group is not made up of people who are accustomed to multi day meal prep I would recommend buying a meal plan especially if you are already renting gear. It would have easily added a full day of shopping and packing had we made our own menu. The risk you run with a meal plan is they inevitably contain things that one may find to be dead weight. For example a box of chocolate cake mix, while it may sound good to some I would have traded the space for 6 more cans of smoked oysters and some crackers. Thank you for addressing the preplanning issue. Minimizing the negative surprises leave more room for good ones.
Good information, Thank you. I would like to hear your thoughts on using an 18' cataraft on this river. Obviously you carry less weight than a 18' self bailer. But what about low water and navigating the rocks? Seems the self bailers run soft an slide over them.
The answer depends on your skill level and the water level
What would be the best way to advocate for private boaters getting a larger percentage of the available permits? At 1,000 to 1 odds it seems like I'll never get a permit for the Middle Fork.
You’re probably not going to have much luck advocating for more use but aid you want to try a good place to start is to read the management plan and then talk with the forest service. The odds are about 70:1.
Go in the fall and bring duckies?
Does anyone have a solid way to figure out when the road is open? BLM on the rogue always does a great job posting what shuttle routes are open, but I haven’t found that information on the USFS website.
So if you get a permit I think you should think about picking a team for the trip. I agree if you are not a great boater may not be best to go off and lead a trip without adequate experience as you said and I agree with that. But you can easily find very experienced boaters who did not get a permit who can provide a lot of knowledge about the river etc. I think people who get in over their head don’t make an honest assessment and fill in
sorry hit wrong button, fill in for their deficiencies if need be. First year applied for permit, no luck. But if had got one I know plenty of people who could help in areas I am not good at. But I have good river skills so yes you have to know how to get down a class4 river.
Lol
First GG video I've disliked. In general, I love the value that the GG videos add to the boating community. Just a brief explanation as to why I've disliked, for Zach: The two pleas to give up your permit if you don't meet the ambiguous ZC experience standards just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with the thing about getting out of the way of sweep boats (in general, up river boats are responsible for distancing from down river craft). On another note, Different people have different standards of risk assessment, of required skills to do activity X, etc. We don't need to turn the MFS into the risk-averse/safety-at-all-cost 1950's American suburbs. [Powell would have run it without the safety of gps or a mile-by-mile guide. ] Of course, we also don't want to turn the river into a all-out shitshow. That's why there is a permit system, but that's also why there is no qualification test!
A lot of people call me with permit in hand an little or no skills. The ask if I can train them before the season so they’re ready to go. Unfortunately I’m not really able to do that and I’m not sure anyone can. My goal was to help answer that question I get regularly.
I appreciate most of Zachs videos, as well as this one. In his defense, not that he needs it, Zach advocates often for people to have an adventure even if a little over their heads, as long as safety is observed.
But I would agree that the Middle Fork should be respected. If folks aren't prepared, or at least assemble a strong team around them, maybe giving up is wise. The Middle Fork, even at low water, is a commitment, and class 4 skills are good to have.
Really? I think the rangers even mention to get out of the way of sweep boats. And you should. As far as turning back permits if you aren't qualified - that is wise advice. When you have done CPR on someone or seen the aftermath then come talk to me.
@@1carve2 I'd rather not, thanks. But, at any rate, perhaps better advice would be not to apply for permits if you aren't qualified...