The VSL Syncrhon piano libraries are the best out there from my years of recording pianos and testing and using many of the piano libraries. The full versions of the Syncrhon pianos are in the 250GB per piano file size. That’s a lot of samples to compete with. The flexibility of many mic positions allows the producer to combine mic positions for what seems like an infinite variety of piano sounds depending on your need. The main flaw in all of this is tuning is impossible to make perfect so the user has to have realistic expectations to tuning. All piano samples, while getting better, are challenged just like real pianos with tuning. Many layers of stacked samples. So even if you have some layers in tune the same note may not be in tune at different velocities played. I can imagine the challenge to keep the sample recording sessions in tune. The piano tuner has to stand by and often retune to make the sample creation process as in tune as possible. As for the Syncrhon pianos my favorites are the Steinway, followed by the Bosendorfer followed by the Yamaha. They are all useful in different styles of music and pieces within those styles. My Fav to play is the Steinway as I think it is the easiest to play of the 3 in that in responds more immediate to the trained pianists touch. The next easiest to play and almost the same response is the Yamaha. The Bosendorfer is a little trickier to play but it has a very sustaining and beautiful tone. If you can only buy one, but the Yamaha or Steinway. If you can buy two, add the Bosendorfer next. You will find you use all 3 of these VSL pianos almost equally. Perhaps I favor the Steinway as best overall if you had to buy just one. You can’t go wrong with the Steinway. The PianoTeq model has improved over the years and has done a great job with this development. The plus is it is easy to play and small in file size of course. It is useful within a mix of instruments but will show its modeled nature compared to a piano sample in solo recordings. While you can tune individual notes of the VSL pianos this doesn’t solve the issue as sometimes it’s the color of the note that is out of tune. Meaning only 1 string of the 3 strings that create the note that is out. So tuning the note does not correct the issue. I’ve tried and it is sort of a rabbit hole and not very productive in results. I do recommend the Kawaii VPC as a controller keyboard. Kawaii has even manufactured the keybed for the very pricey top of the line Nord pianos so many of the pro community must agree that Kawaii has something here. It’s the triple strike key sensor I believe tech. You get a very good control over the velocity which gives the player the feeling of a real piano in touch. Setting are also critical and should be edited to taste for the Synchron pianos player. (Dynamics, volume, velocity. Each piano is slightly different and each controller will require their own edits to those Syncrhon piano settings. Once set, save it and name it for easy recall).
dear friend i want something for solo recording do you think that the vsl is best for this i like the bosedorfer tone but you have said that have not the steinway velocity pallete ... i have the fazioli but the velocity is a little hursh so you thing the steinway vsl is the best ? i use also a vpc1 and a mac m1
Another great review of two complex plugins that pianists might be contemplating in a world beyond acoustic pianos. The reality for so many budding musicians is that it is unlikely that many of us will have the physical space to house the piano of our dreams, let alone the means of purchasing such a beautiful object. Instruments like these will probably become the standard in tomorrow's socioeconomic reality. Mr. Harrison is a great personality to offer this sort of content. Many of us watching would probably enjoy befriending this guy. Thoughtful, thorough, seriously capable, and yet down to earth in his sensitive approach to playing a virtual instrument. I own several of the plugins that he reviews. Videos like this encourage me to push beyond the presets to get the sound I used to have when I was studying at a conservatory with top level pianos. Instruments that I cant establish a long term relationship with. Really appreciate content like this. Cheers!
In my opinion, these pianos are so good, that the quality and setup of youtube transmission, local amp, speakers, you name it, have so much influence, that it is very difficult to judge based on such a video. You have to test yourself in your personal setup. I, personally have never heard anything electronically generated which was as good as Pianoteq.
It is definitely a very good point! Everyone's personal studio/workspace setup is a little different and, given that many pieces of gear (such as the speakers or headphones you use) will inevitably affect the tone, it is important to test out a few different VSTs to determine which one resonates with you and your setup. :)
Thankyou for taking the time to make this comparison. I have owned Pianoteq Professional version since v5 and own quite a few sample libraries! Whilst Pianoteq had great playability, the earlier versions were quite a long way of sample libraries for realistic sound. For final productions I always used sample libraries and in recent years these have been either NI Noire or Embertones Walker Concert D. However, in the past couple of years Pianoteq has been steadily catching up with the realism of sample libraries and with the latest Pianoteq 8 I have started to use this over my sample libraries on my latest projects. I am becoming more and more tempted to purely use Pianoteq from now on and invest into their ecosystem with a few more addon's because all of the sounds are constantly being updated and improved along with new features being added. Many of the updates are free and continue to improve the sound of the pianos and also add new features. Even the major updates only cost $29 (or even less from some dealers!!). I my opinion, this makes Pianoteq a great investment that offers excellent value for money!
You're very welcome! Thank you so much for taking the time to check out our videos and for sharing your wonderful insights! I definitely agree. Pianoteq is an impressive offering and a very great value and investment for someone looking for an excellent and reliable VST piano plugin.
The real first difference between the two sounds in my viewpoint occurs right at the moment hammers hit the strings. In Pianoteq you hear, (so to speak), a "cun cun" more than a "Tum tum". It's what I hear in the high-end Rolands as well. There are sequences in the video where the Pianoteq sounds harpy. No doubt a great VST but Sincron D from VSL brings the authenticity on a level perhaps no one can surpass. Thanks Stu for such great comparison and playing!
Thanks so much for all you reviews and the massive amount of time you contribute in preparing them! I would love to see a video on tweaks you do to each software package to make them play better using the RD2000. Things like adjusting the velocity curve and mike adjustments you use, etc. Maybe sharing some saved presets from your VSL, Ravenscroft 275, Keyscape, and any other virtual pianos! Maybe it would turn into a series!
I love the responsiveness of Pianoteq so much, I don't really mind the fact its not quite as realistic tone-wise as the very best piano libraries. I like the Mint-Worn slider too, I adjust that exactly to fit with each individual song. The dynamics slider too is great for easily adjusting the range of your playing.
For sure! The Pianoteq VST offers a lot of excellent features and benefits. The difference in terms of computer load also plays a factor for some users. Thanks for tuning in! :)
@@MerriamPianos And now one can run it on iPad or iPhone even. PS Sound wise, it would be nice to review new version (8th) of Pianoteq with updated sound. Pro version also allow individual note tweaking. Maybe agains some other VST 🙏🏻
The first thing I noticed was that the Pianoteq was much louder and I had to turn the volume up on the VST sample based piano in order to compare the two. Once I did get them at the same level, wow! There was a fair bit of difference between the two. The Pianoteq in comparison sounded thinner and not as authentic (especially in the mid-lower chording), whereas the VST sampled piano didn't have any thinness to it and sounded more like a real Steinway grand... Virtual modeling has a long ways to go yet before they can capture a more realistic, full piano sound!
There is quite a bit of disparity between default output levels between different VST plugins. As for your notes about sample-based engines versus modelling, they are very different animals of course. They both have their place at the table and offer different tools for different jobs, but I personally agree that, generally speaking, sample-based engines still have a bit more authenticity right now.
I love the Pianoteq. It has something in the tone that I can describe as "wood-warmth" while the Piano VST sounds cold and metallic to me. Unfortunately I don't have a good vocabulary to explain it but I can hear this difference so clearly that I had to comment :) I have always studied and played on real pianos (baby grand), that's where I come from.
Whenever I see reviews and comments, I feel like I'm the only person who can see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. lol Pianoteq 8 has made a lot of progress, and I have enjoyed following the progress of it over the years. It has definitely become more realistic in the lower velocities since version 8, but it definitely has an artificial tone to it when you get into the higher velocities. It can sound great in a mix; you DON'T want all that low end, and warmth and woodiness to sound muddy with the bass and drums, so you'd have to EQ that stuff out anyways.... but it still isn't really fooling me for solo playing yet. I always imagined version 10 would be the time when people are officially taking this as a serious alternative to samples.
The velocity curve makes a big difference on Pianoteq and you can adjust the preset curves, you can even calibrate the curve to suit the piano you're playing. Also the 'wear' slider also brings more warmth to it when taken off 'mint.' Also Pianoteq is being upgraded all the time whereas sampled pianos don't have that facility.
Really excellent comparison! The Pianoteq is a truly exceptional simulation (not synthesis; simulation). Quite amazing, in fact! However, there’s a certain milkshakey richness in the sound that the sample reproduces better. The Pianoteq has just a shade more plinky, Rhodes-like sound. You beautifully illustrated one aspect of that at time 19:20. Now that particular concern might be addressable by increasing the hardness of the hammer felt slightly, and simply hitting the strings harder. What’s curious though, is that in your head-to-head comparison at the end, the difference in the overall effect was smaller than I expected. I think that, ultimately, the main choice here is versatility and precision of control (Pianoteq) vs. exact accuracy (sample). Sampled pianos usually have to control dynamics by cross-fading between a soft sample and a loud sample, and that’s just not how a real piano works or sounds! Pianoteq can, conceptually at least, reproduce dynamics more true to the real instrument!
very well said. i experience it in a similar way. The pianotec dynamic response to playing is more realistic in way and that is it's power in the comparison, on the other hand, the best sampled pianos vst's sound absolutely nicer, cleaner, clearer and more how a recorded grand piano would sound on any album with realistic room or hall verb. it's a weird contradiction, but it is like that. In real life i find sometimes that the realistic response to specific playing of the pianotec can inspire the player in it's own unique way that the sampled pianos don't, and that absolutely justifies it's place within the collection of virtual pianos.
Thank you so much for taking the time to check out the review and for your kind words! We also appreciate your excellent insight here. We are always super impressed by how thoughtful, knowledgeable, and articulate our community members are here. Your additional insights are fantastic. Thanks again! :)
@@MerriamPianos, thanks, and thanks again for the great comparison! I went ahead and bought Pianoteq (although I haven’t had much chance to use it yet). For my purposes, there’s another consideration: Microtonality. Pianoteq appears to have extremely-versatile microtonal capability. I recently picked up a Lumatone keyboard, and I’m looking forward to using Pianoteq with it, in, for example, 31TET tuning!
I don't even play piano, but I couldn't stop watching this - so well presented, lovely playing/demonstration, no frills/fascinating. Have the Pianoteq Pro VST for DAW music creation, so was interested to see what a bona fide player could actually do with it; and now I know. Wow. For what it's worth (and I have no doubt there's a little bias involved), I found the Pianoteq to be more rounded/warmer sounding in this demonstration, whereas the Vienna sounded tighter/brighter and maybe a bit more realistic (albeit less intimate/involving). Just my ears/impression. Much enjoyed the demo, and last but by no means least, your playing.
Thanks so much for tuning in and for the incredibly kind words! I will be sure to pass on your compliments to Stu. :) Both of these are excellent VST plugins that offer something very different musically. Different tools for different jobs as they say! ;)
I would buy a VSL piano if it ran natively on Linux. I love it in your comparison recording. I can only express it as more warmth and brilliance compared to Pianoteq. However Pianoteq is always being improved. The piano I'm playing at home is quite satisfying so I really don't have much to wish for.
@Jet Li This is wrong in so many ways. 1. He is talking about nativ support for VSL on Linux or the lack of it. Why you bring up Mac and if it can run it or not? 2. I doubt you develop anything on any OS just because your statement about macOS "sounds" better than Linux. What? How can an OS "sounds"? Its up to your interface and eventually the drivers of it for the particular OS!
I know it's an old video and there is a newer version of Pianoteq out now. But I appreciate comparing various VST's to Pianoteq. What I am seeing is that every single piano sound, whether modeled or VST is different. There are no two acoustic pianos that are 100% identical even in the same brand let along a dozen or so manufacturers who have quite different sounds but all striving to be "the best." And the recordings of those wonderful real life pianos? Yup, all different. What you have done, intentional or otherwise, is to convince me that I really would like to try out Pianoteq, not as a "throw-away" to get acquainted with something other than the stock sounds in my keyboards, but as a real and useful piano sound that stands up on its own as a legitimate piano voice in a world of many piano voices. I find myself very attracted to the huge number of parameters that are adjustable in ways that just are not available in a sampled sound. And Pianoteq continues to get better while sampling continues to be recordings, even great recordings, of a piano. Honest question, how much farther can that go? How much farther can modeling go? I've played piano for over 50 years. I actually find that some of the sounds you've demoed for either of these have my ear more inclined towards Pianoteq. Is if perfect? No. Is it pleasant? I think so.
Hi! Brent here! Thank you for taking the time to tune in and write in with your thoughts and questions. We appreciate it. :) We're glad to hear that Stu's comparison video has led you to wanting to explore Pianoteq. I think your synopsis is bang on (and eloquently said). Modelling piano sounds are simply another piano sound that has its own unique nuances and characteristics. Plus, the customization available through these engines are quite exciting for certain contexts of use. In terms of your question about sampling, I think the future of digital pianos is modelling. However, many manufacturers have started using a hybridity of these two approaches, which yields very impressive results. Having a sample at the core of the sound can offer authenticity, while have some dimensions of the sound can offer flexibility. I suppose time will tell where things lead. Thanks again and happy playing!
Pianoteq is by far much easier to install and use that Synchron. It is a very well thought out and I would say elegant software package. All I can say is that I had nothing but problems when installing and trying to use Synchron. I already have Pianoteq and Garritan CFX (no problem installing or using them with the exception of CFX that I cannot reduce key return noise to 0). First of all, Synchron piano installation is unnecessarily complicated (I tried both free Soft Imperial and Bosendorfer Upright - both relatively small as far as library size). Secondly, no matter what file installation defaults I set, I had installation spread between two disks: numerous directories on my slower disk C: and some (library in particular) on dedicated, faster drive H: (I only want to have this drive used for VSTs). Finally, I had big lag between pressing the key and getting the sound. I have a specific setup. I use FP-90X connected with USB MIDI to my computer and I use USB Digital Interface option Roland has to send the digital signal over the same USB cable to FP-90X (Roland’s DAC, amp and speakers are used). It worked perfectly with Pianoteq and Garritan but no matter what parameters I set, I have this unacceptable delay. I have to use Roland as output for Synchron piano and Roland appears on the list of audio output options (only one option!). Their support did not get back to me. My experience witch VSL is bad (to say the least). I have no idea why no reviewer ever mentions the installation issues and the need for iLock hardware key.
They are both very good. Something about the Vienna just sounds more real and present. I hear a little bit of a mid tone in the PianoTeq that seems not quite as pleasing. Reminds me a little bit of the Kurzweil keyboards that I have played over the years. There is just something in there that doesn't sound terrible, but strikes a little bit of a nerve if that makes sense. Great job on the video as usual. Thanks for the hard work.
Thanks so much for tuning in and for the kind words! We sincerely appreciate it! They are both excellent VST piano plugins, but everyone is going to have their own personal tonal preferences between the two. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights! :)
For me, the sad aspect of the VSL Synchron pianos is that they do not include real una corda samples. They have a fake soft pedal that has very little effect. For someone who only plays classical music, not having a good una corda is a detriment. In a post on their forum, they call una corda a "little used" item. (They later softened that comment). And another VSL person suggested: "We are currently evaluating your feature request regarding una corda. Just a thought for an immediate solution: Use the Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 Standalone as host and insert an EQ to shape the una corda sound. Then set automation up to control the EQ's bypass via the soft pedal." Seems like a lot of work to have to do on what's probably the most expensive sampled piano library.
They have never played Beethoven or Chopin so forgive them! :) Jokes aside, you have to consider what it means recording true una corda samples, it means basically doubling the size of the library unless they adopt some compromise. It's the same with sordino strings, the bigger the size of the library the less willing producers are to edit double the amount of samples and they choose to filter or eq the material they already have instead. Cannot really blame them, it's a lot of work particularly if you have a library with multiple mics positions.
@@chopin4525 Yes, cost/benefit. BUT... their older, less expensive non-Synchron Vienna Instruments Imperial does tout "Recordings of sustain pedal up/down and soft pedal (una corda) down" "Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal up" "Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal down". Admittedly, that product has fewer mic positions than do the Synchrons. I'd happily trade the Sychron's loud pedal noise samples for una corda 😅 Of course, I'm guessing that VSL's primary audience is pros who are making sound tracks for videos/commercials/movies and maybe some gigging musicians. And who are more often using the piano as "another instrument" in a mix. Not for amateurs or students who want to close their eyes and imagine they're playing something that costs more than a house. Having both the VSL Steinway and old Ivory II pianos on my machine, I personally found myself generally opting to play the Ivory.
@@JaneFlemingPiano Yep, But the Imperial has no progressive sustain pedal and fewer keys sampled and stretched to save some space. It has a lovely tone but these 2 "faults" always prevented me from acquiring it. The close tone of the piano is gorgeous tough.
Thank you for this comment. It is always important to understand 100% of what you are getting considering the price tag relative to other VSTs. Yes VSL Synchron may very well be the best, but does that mean they should be able to charge whatever they want and justify it because, "no one is better"? Well, no one is better **YET**.
@@chopin4525 i agree with you and it shows the limit and sampling unless you adopt an hybrid approach like most DP where most effects on top of classic sampling is modelled . I think pianoteq has clearly an edge here as the way they model sustain pedal , half pedalling and soft pedal is second to none . Garritan Is one the rare who have sampled with Una corda , so indeed the library is massive but their sustain is a bit buggy .
Well. A lot to think about. Though I am a "Modelling" fan, I have to go with the V.S.L. . The Lustre coming off that initial "Sample" is, for me, very engaging even though at lower levels the flavour of the tone is more "One Note" if you will. To my ear, the Pianoteq comes off as a very "Canned" sound. Thanks for showing the partials difference too. Love your skill.
kyrhy: I think I understand you. I have faith that modelling will take us to where samples are now (in sound integrity) and way beyond too, but I believe that samples still have the edge at the moment. This is reflected on DPs too. Yamaha still rules for sound on DPs IMO, and the new CP88 boasts the CFX patch plus a Steinway patch. Wow!
Thank you so much for ALL your very helpful RUclips videos. They are informative and literate and very musical--just what we need to help make big decisions.
Just for whatever it’s worth, I’ve found that changing Pianoteq’s settings can be something of a slippery slope: _Seemingly-tiny_ changes can have bigger effects than we’d imagine. For example, on both the Hamburg and New-York Steinways, I voiced in more fundamental, and EQed up the low end. _However_ I quickly discovered that even just 1dB of fundamental boost quickly sounded like an unnatural cartoon! I was able to get away with a little more boost in the EQ - about 3dB without it sounding unnatural. Generally speaking, I’ve found that I can get away with _somewhat_ larger tweaks to the _model_ parameters, like hammer hardness, for example.
Thanks so much for sharing your insights and discoveries! I'm sure other Pianoteq users here will find the tips handy. Sometimes, small brushstrokes go a long way I suppose! :)
Amazingly detailed review !!! Thank you so much, it will be the Pianoteq for me, sounds much more tri-dimentional to me; and I have great reverbs to make up for the room ambiance !!
You're very welcome! It's our pleasure! Thank you for tuning in! You really can't go wrong with either of these excellent VST plug-ins. They are both very impressive. :)
Excellent review Stu, thank you. I fully agree with the magic and air of the VSL Synchron that you describe around 24:00. I was fortunate to play a D a few times in a large concert hall; "player position" is quite amazing - and memorable - in this setting. I've been intrigued by Pianoteq but not taken the leap yet. There is an animated digital quality that doesn't quite work for me in comparison with a well-sampled VST. My current go-to is the Synthogy American Concert D, which imho has some nice qualities of a sampled grand plus a few manageable warts. With this said, synthetic instruments can be quite inspiring because they are so responsive. Years ago I played a Roland MKS20 Structured Adaptive piano module that was satisfying despite sounding nothing like a real piano. I think Pianoteq would be excellent for recording in a band mix and also live performance. Being math-based, it may collapse to mono better than most sampled instruments due to more controlled phasing. I also like how dynamics and tone can be shaped to place the instrument precisely where it needs to fit in a complex mix. My Synthogy D is a wonderful solo instrument, but in a mix I tend to process a bit - i.e. mono-ize frequencies below ~200 Hz to anchor the instrument, and perhaps gate the decay to clean up overtones. This can tame the instrument to sound a bit more like Garritan CFX which has been one of my options for full-band productions. I may take the leap and try Pianoteq. It's certainly versatile enough to find many uses in production.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your excellent insights! It is certainly interesting to consider the backend "math" involved with any type of digital conversions, whether it be sample/bit rate or collapsing from stereo to mono. That would be an interesting subject to explore in greater detail down the road! Thanks again and all the best! :)
I have both but obviously it's just my opinion: I find Pianoteq with its modeling still a little bit unreal, you can hear the vibration of the strings as plucked instead of hammered. However it is very popular because it does not cost a lot, it is not expensive on hardware resources and it offers a good dynamic response (quite rare among VST). The Stainway VSL also has a great dynamic response (I find it the one with the best of the VSL pianos).
I have both and i can say that the vsl have something that no other sampled piano can offer, it's sound super realistic, and has all the dynamics that a real d274 can offer The pianoteq on the other hand has lots of tuning and voicing features, and the resonance engine that they used on it is top notch, but the actual sound is anything but a real piano, sometimes at the mid to low velocities it sounds real, but as soon as you go up in velocity or down in the bass, it sounds super artificial, playing fortissimos on the bass would make you cry (at least i cried for my 230£ when i heard it😁
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your experiences with these various plug ins! They all offer something a bit different, but it is great to hear that you've found something you really connect with. :)
What I find most interesting at the ending is that clearly both are the same pianos (considering one is sampled and the other is a simulation, its quite fascinating), but it felt to me like the VSL was with me in the room, hard to describe.
Nothing plays as well as pianoteq lol, VSL basic sample sound is richer and more authentic than PT but PT is infinitely more fun to play around with, you just sit and play music and feel it, it’s all organic. I struggle to play any sampled pianos anymore.
Pianoteq is definitely a heckuva plugin and I definitely agree that it is a lot of fun to play! Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing your insights! :)
Utterly brilliant review. I have the Pianotech VST and Ravenscroft 275 VST. I find the sampled Ravenscroft VST ever so slightly warmer. Possibly (as you say) due to the sampling process like the mics used and recording space. However, it is very close.
The VSL sounds nice & bright but also a bit flat & thin ....as Pianoteq sounds round & full with additional stuff as Hammer/damper noise , the wear slider among other stuff u can adjust to make it sound even more authentic to the real thing......also more easier to install & dont hog your cpu like sampled baesd piano vsts.
It comes down to a matter of personal preference as long as the musical application of the plugin. However, the point you made about the demand on your CPU will be an important consideration for some users. :)
great review and comparison. amazingly, i liked more the pianoteq. the vienna symphonic sounded too "brassy" for me. on the other hand, in another of your videos, i much preferred the keyscape yamaha (beautiful rich nuanced tone) over the pianoteq.
Thank you so much for this video. It is an amazing tutorial for both VSL and Pianotek, topped with very inspired demo performances. But I would like to ask if you could address Roger's comment from 9 months ago regarding the set-up of the controller you use and the changes applied to the velocity curve. I also have a Roland RD 2000 and I can't get some of my vst's to sound right, probably because of the velocity curve adjustment, even though they are very interesting plugins: Galaxy II, Ravenscroft and True Keys American have been the most frustrating.
You're welcome! Thank you for taking the time to check it out. We really appreciate it. When this video was made, Stu was using the Roland RD2000. However, I am not entirely sure as to what his velocity curve settings were. I will pass this question on to the production team and, perhaps, this issue can be tackled in a comprehensive video that covers "how to get the best performance out of your VST plugins" or something to that effect. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
I agree that Pianoteq's reference to specific brands and models of pianos is suspect. It seems more marketing to me than anything else. That said, one issue that you are dealing with is that you only have the "Standard" level of Pianoteq, not the "Pro" version which gives much more nuance in the control of the settings. I only recommend purchasing the Pro version as that's what you will end up wanting, and it costs more to step up each time. While, I'm a Pianoteq owner and player, I really like the sound of the VSL pianos. There is a thickness there that is missing in the Pianoteq. What I've been saying since my DGX arrived is that when the DGX CFX is added as support under a Pianoteq voice, the end result is astounding. Everyday that I play my setup, I'm knocked out by how beautiful it sounds. It doesn't matter much which Yamaha piano voice you use, but the Pianoteq voice changes the tonal realism significantly. It's the Pianoteq that adds realism, but it's the Yamaha that adds richness and thickness to the tone. I think the Yamaha perhaps thickens out the fundamental. I say it all the time that the two voices playing together are much better than either one by itself. Obviously the VSL libraries are much more sophisticated than the Yamaha DGX voices. One problem with Pianoteq is that it's really hard to comprehend exactly what each setting changes. For example I find their voicing concept weird and not my experience with actually voicing acoustic hammers. I don't have a computerized oscilloscope which I believe would be helpful. As always your playing is absolutely lovely. Please share some of your MIDI's so we could experiment with our instruments under the control of your hands.
I don't think it is marketing. In their website they have an animation of what appears to be done, and they show what looks like the Fourier series of a function, at least to start with. This is what might be happening: first of all, they state they recorded an actual Steinway D-274 at the New York Steinway Hall, in collaboration with Steinway & Sons. Now, my crazy guess is that they developed a sound wave function from those recordings, and approximated it by finding its Fourier series, which would be the fundamental and harmonics. In the animation, they call the function S(t) and it appears to be made of sine functions only (no cosines). Then they add a term that contains the partials (which contains an inharmonicity coefficient inside a square root), and that seems to give the sound its character. Then they add some reverberation, sympathetic resonance, etc. I have looked at some articles online about physical modeling, and they always seem to break down the model in different parts, but I wasn't able to see a sort of final wave function... maybe I am expecting something incorrect. There are partial differential equations of 2nd degree involved and some other stuff, and many articles are presented as thesis for a master of science in mathematics and engineering departments (just a quick search in the basic google engine). I have no idea what they actually do, but they are using a real Steinway D-274 to develop the model, and I am sure their model is a decent replica of the wave function of the actual piano. It is not like they added a bunch of partials and harmonics and said, "Oh, this sound like a Steinway to me, let's call it Steinway D". Technology is evolving, the models are evolving, solving differential equations by numerical methods on a computer is limited to the power of the computer and the complexity of the method, and we might see much better iterations of Pianoteq in the future. At the present moment, I don't think Pianoteq is that great. We might just be praising a fairly primitive model. I had Pianoteq 4 before and I have tried Pianoteq 7 now, it is a lot better, but still weak.
@@Instrumental-Covers They modeled their C. Bechstein from a digital recording. The great thing about Pianoteq is it is constantly improving with regular updates and also loading presets takes no time at all. And where else can you build your own piano to your particular liking? Their 'K' piano which many think is a model of a Kawai is actually their own creation resulting in a 6 foot 11 inch grand piano.
@@sawry1 Yes, they have a piano they call "K2 Grand Piano", that it is not based on any specific model. Apparently, neither Kawai nor Yamaha have approved their sound. They state that Steinway & Sons, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, Grotrian and Petrof, have all approved their sound and playability. They have a piano they call YC5, and they give enough reference to infer it is a Yamaha grand (possibly the C5), but they don't openly say it. From a mathematical point of view, if the model relies on a Fourier series or some type of series, then its limitation may come from not having enough terms in the series to produce a better approximation to the real recorded sound. Or if the numerical methods needed to solve a partial differential equation are using some type of recurrent algorithm, then again the approximation is limited to the number of iterations you can compute in real time. I am trying to give you possible scenarios as to what could be limitations to Pianoteq. This is a mathematical model (let's say a system of partial differential equations), its solution is found using numerical methods that approach more and more to the solution as you do more and more iterations. But you have the time constraint: you can't just leave the computer overnight calculating a note, as playing is happening in real time. Therefore, the algorithm must be stopped with a less ideal approximation. This results in having less harmonics and partials of higher order, which makes Pianoteq to sound a bit dull, like it doesn't provide enough sparkle and richness in the sound. This may not be a problem for dark sound lovers with rolled-off treble (hence Kawai dark sound lovers may find this program great), but for people who want to hear all the details of the treble (Yamaha style), this program is not giving them the sound they look for. In the future, more computing power will allow faster real time calculations and more terms can be added to the series, or more iterations can be calculated on those numerical methods that require iterations. This is of course my guess, but it is based on how some numerical methods work and what happens when you add more terms to a series that approximate a certain function. That will result in more clarity to the sound. I think right now it is limited to people who like dark, unclear treble, rolled-off high frequencies. Again, this is all made up, it is just my wild guess.
@@Instrumental-Covers I play mainly rock, so I guess the finer nuances of the sound don't really matter, but for Classical I guess it's different. The YC5 is the Yamaha C5.
@@Instrumental-Covers I appreciate your knowledge, which on many occasions has been shown to be greater than mine. Undoubtedly they must have some method of develop their various brands. I started out with the Bluethner and still like it. I then bought their Steinway B which didn't grab me. I have their Bechstein, and now the two Steinway D's plus one other that I can't remember. At least in my use case, buying more piano models is largely a waste, I could have just stuck with the Bluethner and been just as happy. I do believe all their models may be simply marketing even if it is modeled after the real thing with some reverse engineering of the sound waves. I do think Pianoteq is an amazing product, and I have nothing against them at all. The fact that it runs natively on Linux is the only reason I use it, and it's the only reason I don't use a VSL library which they refuse to port to Linux. Once you use a Linux computer for an extended period of time, you will find it impossible to deal with all the bullcrap that is an integral part of M$ Windows. Mac is not much better. I tried an iPad for my sheet music a few years ago, and as a Linux user it was a disaster. There was no file manager, and it could be directly connected to a Linux box in the same way Android devices can. I am tempted to get an M1 if they get Linux running on it, and it's my understanding that they are very close. I've gotten off the track here, but all I know is that Pianoteq playing in conjunction with the internal DGX pianos creates a wonderfully rich sounding home instrument. I think in the past you have said something like that is not a good solution, but at least in my case it works spectacularly well. My gripe is that it still leaves me with electronic clutter, and the DGX is big heavy beast and all the features that I thought I would like hardly have been used at all as I'm concentrating just on acoustic piano music albeit on a digital piano.
The VSL has a warmth of sound that is missing in Pianoteq, albeit that Pianoteq is very realistic. I can tell you adding a DGX voice under Pianoteq makes a world of difference.
Wonderfully informative and illuminating comparison, thank you! This really helps understand the issues when comparing VSTs. In the final comparison both plugins sound very good, but isn't there a significant difference between the “out of the box” sound of the Synchron and the Pianoteq? Is the Pianoteq perhaps better suited to someone who is able and willing to expertly tweak the plugin to get the piano sound she's after at any given time, whereas the Synchron might be better for someone who wants precisely and always the Steinway D sound, without having to do too much tweaking? So the choice would still be primarily between sampled and modeled, which, oversimplifying, would seem analogous to the choice between acoustic and digital!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad to hear that you enjoyed the video comparison! :) I think your assessment is quite fair. Of course, it is a matter of opinion, but, when it comes to VSTs, there are some that seem to have abundance of adjustable parameters whereas others seem to be far more geared towards using presets. Generally speaking, modelling-based engines provide a greater number of adjustable parameters versus sampled-based engines. However, with many companies opting for some semblance of a hybrid approach (samples combined with modelling elements), things are getting a little blurry in that regard.
This was a really-helpful review, thanks again! As I think I mentioned in an earlier reply, I went with Pianoteq, in part because I’m big on Microtonality (using Lumatone), which Pianoteq makes really easy. 7:09 - “none of Pianoteq’s sounds come from an actual piano”: I’m pretty sure that’s “only” 99.5% true; there are some subtle, secondary or tertiary sounds that are highly-likely recorded. They would gobble up a lot of CPU processing power to simulate, where a simple recording would be equally effective. For example, applying the pedal itself produces a subtle, quiet sound, and I suspect that sound is recorded for a slight added-realism boost. Similarly, their classical-guitar sound has a guide-finger position-change “neck-squeak” sound that is highly-likely recorded.
Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you found the video helpful. Also, you may very well be right related to some of those sonic nuances being recorded. Naturally, that would be a question for the developers of Pianoteq. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
This review is done using a 2-channel stereo setup. But the pianist Stefan Mendl (Vienna Piano Trio), who was in charge of choosing the actual Steinway D-274 used for the Synchron Stage Vienna, has played this virtual piano with 5 high-end studio monitors: one center channel, left, right, and 2 ambient side/rear speakers. When the guy tweaking the virtual piano for him started adding all those extra microphones (there are 11 microphones), Stefan exclaimed, "Wow!" and started laughing. Real pianos don't make sound left and right. Even the bass strings on a piano don't sound "left", since they run diagonally across the soundboard. In any case, I would say that the bass in a real grand piano sounds sort of in the middle of the soundboard, not left. Collapsing the sound of a piano to left and right is an oversimplification.
Very good points, although there is a certain illusion that the bass comes from the left and the treble from the right. My personal opinion is that the bass strings must effect the soundboard more than the very short treble strings. That said, the bridge of the piano is toward the outer edge of the sound board. Maybe the sound waves from the vibrating strings actually transfer to the sound board and the bridge is just more of an anchor point. What you described as it relates the VSL recordings is that they have created a composite voice that is very rich and warm. More experimentation needs to be done running two or more incidences of Pianoteq that are slightly different from one another.
@@JoeLinux2000 I spent some time playing different isolated notes on a Kawai grand piano, with my head inside the soundboard, because I was building a speaker system for digital pianos and wanted to see where the sound really came from. So, this is not a theoretical opinion of mine, it is what I actually noticed from my experiment. The treble was pretty much to the right on the very top end, as the soundboard is just a tiny piece of wood towards the end... yet it sends sound through the rest of the piano. In addition, there is a strong 100Hz (mid-bass) note even on the very top due to the mechanical noise of the action. I have also checked that by isolating the soundwave using audio software and applying a low-pass filter. Regarding the bass notes: they are not to the left. If you place your head inside the belly of the piano, like I did, you will see the sound is dispersed. I think the illusion of the left bass sound is stronger if you are using a stereo setup, but a stereo setup is a fake representation of a grand piano. In real life, the sound blooms from the belly of the piano.
@@Instrumental-Covers Your knowledge and experience is wonderful, and I accept what you say on this matter to be absolute fact. I'm interested in taking off the strings and maybe even the plate of my older authentic Chickering Grand and installing a digital piano inside to replace the existing action which is warped. To conclude this post, I find you bring a lot to the table in these discussion threads, and I very much enjoy all that you have to offer. It generates a lot of good discussion and insight.
@@JoeLinux2000 Thank you so much! I appreciate it very much. Wow, that sounds like a hard project! I have seen a few people installing digital pianos in grand piano shells, but they use the original digital piano speakers... not a good idea. If you do that, I would recommend that you leave the soundboard and install 4 transducers. They are cheap (about $15 each). They are called "sound exciters", but you have to buy the right type. That is my favorite type of experiment with digital pianos, I think you will really like it. I have put 4 transducers (same thing that the Kawai CA99/NV5S uses) and placed it on a large thin plywood board (a square with sides of 4 feet). Let me tell you this: it gives you lots of bass (which takes me to another favorite topic: Open Baffle Speakers) and if you walk around the house, the piano sound doesn't change! Like in a real piano. This type of speaker is called DML (Distributed Mode Loudspeaker). Let us know if you decide to make the transformation to your piano, that will be very interesting to follow.
Instrumental-Covers These are very interesting observations. I used to have a Steinway D and all Steinways and probably other makes have a tapered soundboard. As the bass strings cross over diagonally it makes sense the bass vibrations originate from near the thick central portion. The action does make a fair bit of mechanical noise, first when the hammers strike the strings and then when the whole action arm falls back down. There might be some noise from the dampers too when they are raised or lowered back on the strings, just scraping the edges during contact. The centre of the soundboard is quite a distance from the player so it might make sense to place the speakers or monitors further away from the player.
When I play the VSL and the Pianoteq, the VSL sounds a little bit smoother but also less live than the Pianoteq. I get a better dynamic response with the Pianoteq played with a Roland RD2000 that sounds like the Piano is in front of me and that response is bad when I play bad (dynamic wise). However the harmonics of both are great, and even dissonances that are resolved sound real and not harsh on both. The fine reflections on the strings that are not played are perfectly felt on the Pianoteq with the resonance calming down super realistic when I keep the sustain pressed that is different on the VSL.
Very nice playing. Two fundamentally different pianos, I would say. The PT sounds more tinny in the midrange. Fixing this in a real life piano, by the way, may just be a matter of voicing the felt on the hammers. I'd also say that the presentation of the VSL in the soundstage is better.
I find Pianoteq Pro hard to voice. I don't understand their concept of voicing as it seems different than needling real hammers. On an actual acoustic piano voicing is used to even out the differences between hammers and the overall hardness, or brilliance of the the sound or mellowness and perhaps mushiness of the sound. New hammers have to be voiced up, older hammers generally become too hard, bright, and brittle sounding. No matter what the climate, they tend to go bad.
OMG, that throaty sound, which almost sounds like a whipping koo koo (like in the word wood) sound in pianoteq around the midrange and starting bass range really bugs me. I really wanted to like pianoteq, because in some ways I see it as a step up from the Roland sound on the HP605. I just can't get past that koo koo sound, which becomes really apperant in some songs. Still, I hope they keep improving because it is such a cool piece of software and technology. In the meantime, I'm going to try to check out all the VSL pianos and put the time into editing the velocity, note volume, etc. Thanks for these videos, I love the channel.
You're very welcome! Thank you for tuning in and sharing your thoughts! Naturally, tonal preference is a deeply personal and subjective thing. With that said, you can definitely bank on the Pianoteq technology and platform to keep improving. :)
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! I am not sure if Stu has tried the Ivory 3 VST yet. I don't personally have any experience with it either. I will add it to the list of potential VST plugins to tackle in an upcoming review. Thanks for the suggestion! Happy New Year to you as well! :)
I am looking for advice on speakers. What is a good size that will fill the room with the sound of a Grand Piano. I have a Kawai VPC, Apple M1, Ravencroft and Pianotec software, Volt One interface and Yamaha HS5 speakers. This setup sounds really good from my playing position. But is a small sound and only really good close. When you are playing back in these comparisons, what speakers and amp are you using? Would 8 or 10 inch work better to entertain in my home?
You should equip yourself according to the size of the room where you are playing. A small room: Hs5. An average room: HS7 or T7V (with a subwoofer...). A whole house or the exterior: DXR. The way you place them also plays on the feeling (on the ground, on feet, at the top of the wall). And above all, it is the acoustic treatment of the room that counts enormously.
Thanks for your usual excellent presentation. I’m enjoying using my Kawai VPC (nee Merriam Music..thanks Patrick). I wonder if you’ve had a chance to audition the latest version of Cinesample’s Piano in Blue? This version can run on the free Kontact player. The sampled piano is the legendary Steinway D at Columbia NY studio. The one that Gould recorded the WTC on as well as Bill Evans with Miles et al. That Steinway has a incredible sound captured by Cinesamples. I wonder where that piano is today?
Hi Terry, if it could help you I bought it as an upgrade; I have not found any difference in the sampling with the previous version: it remains a beautiful sound but with not much dynamics.
Hi Merriam Music! if you can buy the standard version of Pianoteq which of the pianos would be best to choose? Because you can then choose only 4 pianos.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! That really comes down to a matter of subjectivity and also the musical application you are predominantly using the VST for. Classical playing versus pop music production are very different realms with very different musical needs for instance. I may suggest choosing complimentary pianos that will cover all of your different musical needs. :)
The FFT spectum of a piano shows higher amplitude in the low freqs and a soft steep slope to higher values. High pitch nores are above the backgroung of wood resonance curve while low pitch notes are barely distinct. I wonder if VST can overcome this phenomenon of wood not resonating in the higher freqs, and provide an extended richness in that range. High octave notes should also cause resonance in if not wood, a pure or composite material, and lead to a new piano. In the past wood was the only chioce, now, possibilities are infinite
Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing these wonderful insights! It is quite an interesting and exciting prospect to be in a situation where technology (like VST plugins) might be able to 'improve' or 'alter' the musical behaviours of a piano in a sonically beneficial way. It will be interesting to see what the coming years and VST plugins offer! :)
The perspective "fake" vs "real" is not relevant. It is all about how it sounds playing, mixing, and within your track. PianoTeq is amazing and extremely versatile. It is more like "raw" footage off a camera; you get way more headroom. You can really tweak the sound to fit your creative needs within the mix.
it's all about mixing, and how it sits in your track, except when it isn't. Proper piano playing is mainly about solo playing, so the perspective 'fake vs. real' is as relevant as it has ever been, and to date, there's no comparison between a sampled piano and a real one. Personally, I don't care about whether I have a thousands mic positions or only one....in my experience no sampled piano library can even come close to the dynamic range and harmonic content of a real piano, and even the most modest upright is 100 times better than ANY sampled library. A sampled library IS a fake, a compromise at best. That's all it is, and so far it has never been more than that. For a generic part in a pop song buried between other instruments it is good enough, but for playing classical music it always falls short. In my experience sampled libraries aren't of any use for piano pieces over grade 3-4 ABRSM, i.e. post beginner pieces. Even for playing a miniature masterpiece like The Wild Horseman by Schumann, a sampled library is pretty inadequate, and for anything more difficult than that, it is completely useless. For generic pop music it is ok, but it's still a compromise. That's all it is, let's be honest.
@@luigipati3815 Seems like we're saying the same thing from different angles. If you play one single note on a sampled piano it may sound more "real" than PianoTeq; though, like you said, playability and how it sits in a mix are key. I agree that "real" isn't just the tone but the entire feel of playing real music. Much like how a synthesizer can also be real or sampled. PianoTeq is real in that sense, the generates sounds as a function of input rather than play back a number of recordings in response to keys pressed.
Do you think we can use per note EQ in the synchrons to do the voicing? I mean we can cut or boost the partials but the thing is "is that gonna effect the sound in the same way?"
The feel was much better in Pianoteq with lot of dynamics, although VSL sounds a bit richer but eventually what matters after some time is the feel and connect. I had tried many sampled VST's now uninstalled all of them, Pianoteq is the way to go for sure. When you are so close with a 50MB software then why need 250GB installation ?
I always wonder the same thing in terms of the need for some much free space for the installation! In any case, I'm very glad to hear that you have been enjoying and using Pianoteq successfully. :) It is a fantastic VST! Thanks and all the best!
Thanks for the suggestion! I am sure we will eventually tackle more VST reviews in the future, but, at the moment, we have a lot of acoustic and digital pianos we want to cover in review/comparison videos. :)
Im considering one of these... I have the RD2000 and I love its V-Pianos for live use in a band context. for solo playing at home its not as nice or dynamic. I have Addictive Keys that came from with something but Ive never really liked that - certainly not enough to make me play it over the RD. I have "The Grandeur" that I do really like for home use. ive Demo'd Pianoteq ever evolution since 4 and its never really done it for me - But following some of your tweeks it is sounding better - though not sure its any better than Grandeur (or even quite as nice). Garittan and Ravenscroft are also on my mind but again - not sure there THAT much better than what I have. the VSL stuff seems REALLY good 9though I cant justify the Pro level - would need to be the standard which isnt much more than Ravenscroft or Garitttan). Not sure If the Steinway D or the Yamaha would be the better compliment to The Grandeur though - but Im erring towards one of those. They just seem to pop out as being really good and just right without tweeks. Id also say, for me its far more about the dynamics and how it plays than the actual tone it produces.
There are certainly a lot of great VST piano plugins out there to explore. But, as is the case with shopping for a physical instrument, striking the balance between musical satisfaction and budget may be a factor.
@@MerriamPianos actually, budget isnt an issue as such.... Ive just bought a 3rd wave, and a digital mixer to tie my room together - and not long ago picked up an Osmose (Im lucky at my current place in life to be in this position). Its more justifying how much Id use something as Im primarily a synth player at home. Its more about how much to pay to TRY something. with some VSTs (including Pianoteq) you get that chance without outlay. Not sure Id be happy paying for the VSL Pro piano without actually testing it out. Pianoteq Standard, VSL basic, Ravenscroft and Garittan are all around the same price - and Im comfortable at that level. If I went ths VSL route and it I was happy - and felt upgrading would add something else, then Id be happy to do so at that point.
No comparison. A modeled piano can't compete with a meticulously sampled grand. I love your playing but the PianoTeq demo at the end got so annoying in its timbre at the end I had to FF to the VSL. I own 5 of the 7 VSL pianos and I still believe they can be tweaked to be better because there is something about the Synchron Hall that is hard. I believe the answer is less room mics and adding a convolution reverb. I'd like to hear the ribbon and tube mics being sent to the Teldex IR.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in and sharing your thoughts! A lot of it comes down to personal preference of course. Pianoteq is certainly not without its fanbase. At the end of the day, I view things as "different tools for different jobs". The nice thing about VST plugins is that, unlike pianos, they don't take up any real estate, so there is always the option to have a large assortment of them at your disposal. :)
I am probably asking a silly question here since I am a newbie in the world of VST so I would appreciate your answer: is it possible to get the VST sound through the digital keyboard's speakers when you are playing? I do know how to save a midi file and use VST to merge it with a performance video and thus produce a good videoclip. But if my laptop is connected to the istrument could I completely replace its sound with a VST on the go and enjoy the VST while practicing for example?
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! That is not a silly question at all! The answer is not particularly straightforward however. In theory, this is possible if your piano has a "Line In" feature. You would take the output from your audio interface/computer and plug it into the "Line In". With that said, depending on your particular setup, you may run into some latency (delay) issues. Running through studio monitors from your interface/computer is generally a more reliable option in my experiences. Plus, it is universal as not all models have a line in.
@@MerriamPianos thank you for your kind reply. This does open doors to more options since voice could be manipulated. I myself don't like roland's modeling technology much but otherwise the fp-90x is perfect, now it's back as an option!
Are you using the standard or full libraries for the VSL? Either way you are comparing a $60 piano model to a $300 to $550 library that takes up 118 to 266 gigs of disk space? For the hard core concert pianists the nuances are probably real. But to most home audio producers who will never even see or smell one of these real instruments, either represent an amazing step up from the factory samples of most keyboards. Pianoteq wins hands down on value. It certainly is very very very good, and for the price of one VSL library, you can buy four pianos from Pianoteq. The Pianoteq bundle which includes every sound package they make is under $1000. Wow! Whats a D cost - $15,000+?
It's complicated to compare two different technologies. I own vsl pianos, they are really excellent. Besides that, I find that Pianoteq is finally a real option since the last v7 updates, I really like the dynamics of its pianos, it's really very pleasant to play. The sound has improved as well. The day when Pianoteq will bring almost as much sound credibility as current vsl pianos, it will be the death of purely sampled pianos. Vsl is very expensive, but for a solo recording, Vsl is for the moment ahead thanks to the credibility of the sound. In any case, it's not because I own the Vsl pianos that I'm going to deprive myself of playing on Pianoteq. I wouldn't have said this a few years ago, but they've come a long way and hopefully this will be the future of vst pianos. I can't see myself installing 500GB pianos... I think if you can't afford Vsl (and all the necessary equipment...), Pianoteq is really the best buy !
Could you explain how this is connected? For example, is the sound from external amplifiers or from the sound system in your digital piano? Iam interested in doing this with my Roland LX7.
His voices are coming out of the sound chip of his computer, at least in this video. The RD 2000 has voices but no internal speakers or amplification. He could use them, but doesn't in this video because he is using it simply as a MIDI controller.
Hi George. Have you been able to connect a VST to your Roland? I too have an LX-7 and although I like the action I don’t like the sound very much. Therefore, I’ve been thinking of VST’s lately. Just wondering what your experience has been. Thanks.
Hey, I found Pianoteq 8 was terrific. But recently I just realized that an other modeling software was as good if not better. It's Arturia Piano V3. I loaded a midi file for Arturia and Pianoteq and was able to reproduce almost exactly the sound of Pianoteq, so I guess no huge difference except for the price. You get 12 pianos for 249 euros with Arturia (I would say 6 are for very common usage). It's 349 euros for 4 with Pianoteq ... Could you do a review of this software ? I think it's way underrated.
Thanks for the suggestion! We will do our best to tackle a review/comparison featuring the Arturia Piano V3. At the end of the day, the preference comes down to personal taste. But, it sounds like the Arturia software is a versatile option. :)
@@MerriamPianos If you want to experiment to see how close/different they can be, I give you what I did. First I got a midi file for "As time goes by" and duplicate it on two midi tracks in the DAW, one with Pianoteq, the other one with Arturia. I tried on Pianoteq "NY Steinway D Jazz". I switched rapidly between both while playing and change the settings of Arturia as follows: - switch to "Japanese Grand" (!) - remove limiter - increase volume to 8.06 db (if volume is not equal bass and trebble will differ) - reverb to 3.84% - brightness set to full - dynamics 0.386 Anyway I guess you will hear that Pianoteq has a more "live" sound while Arturia's sound is more "recorded". But I really can't say which one I prefer. Especially when Arturia has two rather convincing presets for Bill Evan's sound!
I might object about something: you improvise, which makes you unconsciously try to get the best sound of each VST, but makes a real comparison difficult. Another thing is that a jazzy style would not mind the slightly artificial attack profile of the Pianoteq sound (sounds like a pure sine wave to me), while in classical piano music it sounds too "electronic". Some of the "dirtyer" spectrum of the VSL might be because of the fact that the real strings, especially the bass ones) are composite, coiled, which adds a specific tone colour that is missing in Pianoteq (more harmonics). This can be somehow changed by modifying the "unison width" but I still find it not satisfactory. Playing a single note, without pedal, still does not sound natural enough for me, even in Pianoteq 8. (classical piano player here 🙂)
There are definitely going to be situations where certain pianos or, in this case, VST piano plugins will be better suited for one musical style over another. However, no matter what, it will always come down to a personal and subjective experience. One player may find the Pianoteq far more appropriate for classical playing over the VSL, while another player may find the exact opposite. The most important thing is to test as many options yourself as possible to determine which one connects most with your playing style and preferences. :)
@@MerriamPianos If they will properly solve the attack modeling problem (which definitely exists, it's not subjective), it'll be ok. Even more ok if they will add some overtones of the composite strings.
There is certainly something to be said for the size of a VST and the burden (or lack thereof) that it takes on your processor. For some users, that will be a very important consideration.
They both offer something a bit different of course. But, the important thing is to find a piano VST that connects with your preferences and playing. :)
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!! +1 Like +1 Subscribe I'm relatively new to all of this. However I just got the VSL MIR Pro & Venues. Would you PLEASE place the PianoTeq into MIR and set up a "Multi-Mic" from pianoteq instrument into the MIR space? It'd be WONDERFUL to learn : "if" it is possible "How" to set it up "Which" venues may provide some of the best characteristics for certain pianoteq instruments. Edit*:P.S. As I continue to watch, and considering my above request... I am wondering how your comparison would fare, if you positioned the Pianoteq version within the VSL "Synchron Stage" venue of their "MIR" collection... Considering that the spatial ambience is not reflecting the same/similar environment between them.
They are both excellent plugins that offer something slightly different! At the end of the day though, everyone will have their own personal preference. :)
Stew, My ears hurt when I see your velocity curve on pianoteq.. I have the feeling you can’t make pianoteq act “right” just because of that. It seems you can’t fully enjoy it. Have tried lowering that curve a bit..? Thanks! Excellent videos..!!!
In my opinion, Pianoteq cannot even be compared to other sample libraries, let alone VSL. An acoustic piano has a soul. You feel it when it plays. They have to catch him first. As if it were very good, they also added tons of settings. When they really fix the realism problem in future versions, then they can break new ground. Until then, pass from me.
That is certainly fair. It is all a matter of preference. Some players will favour sampling over modelling, depending on their tastes. At the end of the day, the most important thing is to find a piano sound that you connect and resonate with. :)
At first listening (only part way through the video) I'm surprised to find so many similarities. One difference is that there seems to be more tonal uniformity across the upper keyboard notes with the Pianoteq. In fact they could be more exciting. That reduces the Steinway illusion slightly. And is it possible/probable that the harmonics or sympathetic reasonance are working differently in each case?
I think it is in fact the sympathetic resonance that creates the difference, and you could hear that in the lovely but small Estonia grand he was playing in the previous video. As for evenness, Pianoteq is deliberately uneven to add realism.
seriously pianoteq vs vsl ? :D seriously? like 1978 estonia vs 2021 fazioli :D goodjob.. actually this is important video because I feel many pianists still are confused :D
@@MerriamPianos yeah both sounded amazing, would you be able to recommend any string vsts that work in the same way as pianotheq? I work from a laptop so large sample libraries aren't an option for me
I'll never understand why Pianoteq is all the rage, but to each their own, I suppose. To me, it just sounds as fake as a virtual instrument can be. The only thing it seems to have going for itself is the fact that it's not CPU/memory-intensive, but given that it's $149 for the cheapest bundle on their site, I'd much rather go for a Garritan CFX or Ravenscroft, both similarly expensive VSTs. I think even Garritan CFX lite is a much better investment at ~$60. To be honest, I clicked on the video for more listening samples of the VSL as opposed to the comparison, haha.
Pianoteq runs natively on Linux, and that's why I use it. Claiming it sounds "fake" is a bit harsh. Nevertheless, it is fake, and therefore a pretty darn good forgery. Again it sounds fatter when supported by a secondary piano voice. Stu should play the two together and see how they sound if his Apple is up to the task.
It's interesting how people lock on to different aspects of the sound. To me I hear it as some kind of EP patch, which doesn't mean it sounds bad, but the idea that other people hear pianos as being part of the same category..... I cannot fathom.
@@BuzPiano I hear digital pianos as being a new type of instrument somewhat like the difference between a harpsichord, piano, or Rhodes piano. Frankly I don't really care for the sound of most acoustics compared to a really good digital. I own two acoustic Chickering grands and definitely prefer my Yamaha DGX / Pianoteq setup for a multitude of reasons. For starters, it sounds better, is beautifully tuned, can be played very musically at lower volume levels. and has a tremendous selection of voices. Obviously you don't care for Pianoteq, but it is unquestionably an example of very wonderful software programing. As good as it is, it's slightly thin and is definitely enhanced by adding a DGX voice to it. My opinion of the DGX voices by themselves is very low. I do not enjoy the sound of it as a virtual acoustic without the addition of a Pianoteq voice. Chasing the perfect digital voice is somewhat of a lost cause. You have to be satisfied with what you have, whatever it is, or hope to be able to find and afford something better.
@@JoeLinux2000 I don't deny that the software does plenty of things right (especially the astonishing level of customization/parametrization that modeling allows for), but if Pianoteq is the holy grail of modeled acoustic pianos, I'll stick to sample libraries when I want to emulate the sound of an acoustic piano. I agree with Buz that it really has the character of an electric piano more than an acoustic one, and that's okay. It doesn't have to have the most natural sound. However, I find it particularly jarring when people use it for recording things such as classical (or classically inspired) pieces as if it _does_ have the most natural sound. As a final remark, yes, it is not possible to emulate an acoustic grand perfectly such that the real and the digital would be indistinguishable, but I don't think striving for that perfect sound is any more a lost cause than trying to record an acoustic instrument perfectly is.
@@BlueGrovyle From my experience any piano that originates from speakers modeled or sampled sounds recorded. I will agree that good samples are warmer than modeling. I think Stu hits the nail on the head. What seems to be missing from Pianoteq is the room. It's generally very dry and very clean. Some sample libraries bring a warmth to the sound that Stu defines as being part of the room, I could not agree more.
The Pianoteq sound may not be for everyone. It certainly has its place for certain musical applications. Some players may prefer a more traditional recorded sample, such as the VSL sample sets.
This is no longer so true on the sound quality, there is really progress. Pianoteq's playing dynamics bring realism for the pianist, which all purely sampled vst are totally unable to offer, except vsl pianos. The dynamics of Ravenscroft and other Uvi pianos, Walker 1955, Garritan CFX, etc... They all lack dynamics and it's a disaster for the interpretation of the pieces.
So what hides behind you're words is that the modeled pianos are shit! And doesn't sound like real piano at all, And that's it. So Roland's "modeled" pianos sounds even shitier then even the fake pianoteq pianos sounds that's all i always claiming. Thanks 👍
This is Very impressive! Btw how you mix the plugins to make it loud without losing the dynamics? I spent a week on this but still can’t find a solution 🥲, there is really not much videos about mixing the piano plugins only talks about how to record.
Thank you very much! We appreciate the kind words! In order to ensure that your dynamics are retained, it is important to ensure there is not heavy compression or limiting anywhere within your session or VST. Sometimes, there can be some type of master limiter or something to that effect on that can hamper and diminish some of the dynamics of your performance.
There is a « je ne sais quoi » in your title, who goes wrong….😉 Maybe because you’ve done 2 videos this week-end. Except this I find pianoteq more « électronic » than VSL, which I found more realistic. But it’s my point of view
The VSL Syncrhon piano libraries are the best out there from my years of recording pianos and testing and using many of the piano libraries. The full versions of the Syncrhon pianos are in the 250GB per piano file size. That’s a lot of samples to compete with. The flexibility of many mic positions allows the producer to combine mic positions for what seems like an infinite variety of piano sounds depending on your need. The main flaw in all of this is tuning is impossible to make perfect so the user has to have realistic expectations to tuning. All piano samples, while getting better, are challenged just like real pianos with tuning. Many layers of stacked samples. So even if you have some layers in tune the same note may not be in tune at different velocities played. I can imagine the challenge to keep the sample recording sessions in tune. The piano tuner has to stand by and often retune to make the sample creation process as in tune as possible. As for the Syncrhon pianos my favorites are the Steinway, followed by the Bosendorfer followed by the Yamaha. They are all useful in different styles of music and pieces within those styles. My Fav to play is the Steinway as I think it is the easiest to play of the 3 in that in responds more immediate to the trained pianists touch. The next easiest to play and almost the same response is the Yamaha. The Bosendorfer is a little trickier to play but it has a very sustaining and beautiful tone. If you can only buy one, but the Yamaha or Steinway. If you can buy two, add the Bosendorfer next. You will find you use all 3 of these VSL pianos almost equally. Perhaps I favor the Steinway as best overall if you had to buy just one. You can’t go wrong with the Steinway. The PianoTeq model has improved over the years and has done a great job with this development. The plus is it is easy to play and small in file size of course. It is useful within a mix of instruments but will show its modeled nature compared to a piano sample in solo recordings. While you can tune individual notes of the VSL pianos this doesn’t solve the issue as sometimes it’s the color of the note that is out of tune. Meaning only 1 string of the 3 strings that create the note that is out. So tuning the note does not correct the issue. I’ve tried and it is sort of a rabbit hole and not very productive in results. I do recommend the Kawaii VPC as a controller keyboard. Kawaii has even manufactured the keybed for the very pricey top of the line Nord pianos so many of the pro community must agree that Kawaii has something here. It’s the triple strike key sensor I believe tech. You get a very good control over the velocity which gives the player the feeling of a real piano in touch. Setting are also critical and should be edited to taste for the Synchron pianos player. (Dynamics, volume, velocity. Each piano is slightly different and each controller will require their own edits to those Syncrhon piano settings. Once set, save it and name it for easy recall).
dear friend i want something for solo recording do you think that the vsl is best for this i like the bosedorfer tone but you have said that have not the steinway velocity pallete ... i have the fazioli but the velocity is a little hursh so you thing the steinway vsl is the best ? i use also a vpc1 and a mac m1
I'm just here to enjoy your lovely playing.
Another great review of two complex plugins that pianists might be contemplating in a world beyond acoustic pianos. The reality for so many budding musicians is that it is unlikely that many of us will have the physical space to house the piano of our dreams, let alone the means of purchasing such a beautiful object. Instruments like these will probably become the standard in tomorrow's socioeconomic reality. Mr. Harrison is a great personality to offer this sort of content. Many of us watching would probably enjoy befriending this guy. Thoughtful, thorough, seriously capable, and yet down to earth in his sensitive approach to playing a virtual instrument. I own several of the plugins that he reviews. Videos like this encourage me to push beyond the presets to get the sound I used to have when I was studying at a conservatory with top level pianos. Instruments that I cant establish a long term relationship with. Really appreciate content like this. Cheers!
In my opinion, these pianos are so good, that the quality and setup of youtube transmission, local amp, speakers, you name it, have so much influence, that it is very difficult to judge based on such a video. You have to test yourself in your personal setup. I, personally have never heard anything electronically generated which was as good as Pianoteq.
It is definitely a very good point! Everyone's personal studio/workspace setup is a little different and, given that many pieces of gear (such as the speakers or headphones you use) will inevitably affect the tone, it is important to test out a few different VSTs to determine which one resonates with you and your setup. :)
Thankyou for taking the time to make this comparison. I have owned Pianoteq Professional version since v5 and own quite a few sample libraries! Whilst Pianoteq had great playability, the earlier versions were quite a long way of sample libraries for realistic sound. For final productions I always used sample libraries and in recent years these have been either NI Noire or Embertones Walker Concert D. However, in the past couple of years Pianoteq has been steadily catching up with the realism of sample libraries and with the latest Pianoteq 8 I have started to use this over my sample libraries on my latest projects. I am becoming more and more tempted to purely use Pianoteq from now on and invest into their ecosystem with a few more addon's because all of the sounds are constantly being updated and improved along with new features being added. Many of the updates are free and continue to improve the sound of the pianos and also add new features. Even the major updates only cost $29 (or even less from some dealers!!). I my opinion, this makes Pianoteq a great investment that offers excellent value for money!
You're very welcome! Thank you so much for taking the time to check out our videos and for sharing your wonderful insights! I definitely agree. Pianoteq is an impressive offering and a very great value and investment for someone looking for an excellent and reliable VST piano plugin.
The real first difference between the two sounds in my viewpoint occurs right at the moment hammers hit the strings. In Pianoteq you hear, (so to speak), a "cun cun" more than a "Tum tum". It's what I hear in the high-end Rolands as well. There are sequences in the video where the Pianoteq sounds harpy. No doubt a great VST but Sincron D from VSL brings the authenticity on a level perhaps no one can surpass.
Thanks Stu for such great comparison and playing!
Thanks so much for all you reviews and the massive amount of time you contribute in preparing them! I would love to see a video on tweaks you do to each software package to make them play better using the RD2000. Things like adjusting the velocity curve and mike adjustments you use, etc. Maybe sharing some saved presets from your VSL, Ravenscroft 275, Keyscape, and any other virtual pianos! Maybe it would turn into a series!
I love the responsiveness of Pianoteq so much, I don't really mind the fact its not quite as realistic tone-wise as the very best piano libraries. I like the Mint-Worn slider too, I adjust that exactly to fit with each individual song. The dynamics slider too is great for easily adjusting the range of your playing.
For sure! The Pianoteq VST offers a lot of excellent features and benefits. The difference in terms of computer load also plays a factor for some users. Thanks for tuning in! :)
@@MerriamPianos And now one can run it on iPad or iPhone even.
PS Sound wise, it would be nice to review new version (8th) of Pianoteq with updated sound. Pro version also allow individual note tweaking. Maybe agains some other VST 🙏🏻
The first thing I noticed was that the Pianoteq was much louder and I had to turn the volume up on the VST sample based piano in order to compare the two. Once I did get them at the same level, wow! There was a fair bit of difference between the two. The Pianoteq in comparison sounded thinner and not as authentic (especially in the mid-lower chording), whereas the VST sampled piano didn't have any thinness to it and sounded more like a real Steinway grand...
Virtual modeling has a long ways to go yet before they can capture a more realistic, full piano sound!
There is quite a bit of disparity between default output levels between different VST plugins. As for your notes about sample-based engines versus modelling, they are very different animals of course. They both have their place at the table and offer different tools for different jobs, but I personally agree that, generally speaking, sample-based engines still have a bit more authenticity right now.
You tried the vsl Steinway d? I'm asking out of curiosity bud
I love the Pianoteq. It has something in the tone that I can describe as "wood-warmth" while the Piano VST sounds cold and metallic to me. Unfortunately I don't have a good vocabulary to explain it but I can hear this difference so clearly that I had to comment :)
I have always studied and played on real pianos (baby grand), that's where I come from.
Thanks so much for taking the time to check out the video and share your thoughts! We sincerely appreciate it. :)
Whenever I see reviews and comments, I feel like I'm the only person who can see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. lol
Pianoteq 8 has made a lot of progress, and I have enjoyed following the progress of it over the years. It has definitely become more realistic in the lower velocities since version 8, but it definitely has an artificial tone to it when you get into the higher velocities. It can sound great in a mix; you DON'T want all that low end, and warmth and woodiness to sound muddy with the bass and drums, so you'd have to EQ that stuff out anyways.... but it still isn't really fooling me for solo playing yet. I always imagined version 10 would be the time when people are officially taking this as a serious alternative to samples.
The velocity curve makes a big difference on Pianoteq and you can adjust the preset curves, you can even calibrate the curve to suit the piano you're playing. Also the 'wear' slider also brings more warmth to it when taken off 'mint.' Also Pianoteq is being upgraded all the time whereas sampled pianos don't have that facility.
The wear slider definitely brings more color and realism to the instrument. Understanding the velocity control is a bit difficult.
Really excellent comparison!
The Pianoteq is a truly exceptional simulation (not synthesis; simulation). Quite amazing, in fact!
However, there’s a certain milkshakey richness in the sound that the sample reproduces better. The Pianoteq has just a shade more plinky, Rhodes-like sound. You beautifully illustrated one aspect of that at time 19:20. Now that particular concern might be addressable by increasing the hardness of the hammer felt slightly, and simply hitting the strings harder.
What’s curious though, is that in your head-to-head comparison at the end, the difference in the overall effect was smaller than I expected.
I think that, ultimately, the main choice here is versatility and precision of control (Pianoteq) vs. exact accuracy (sample). Sampled pianos usually have to control dynamics by cross-fading between a soft sample and a loud sample, and that’s just not how a real piano works or sounds! Pianoteq can, conceptually at least, reproduce dynamics more true to the real instrument!
very well said. i experience it in a similar way. The pianotec dynamic response to playing is more realistic in way and that is it's power in the comparison, on the other hand, the best sampled pianos vst's sound absolutely nicer, cleaner, clearer and more how a recorded grand piano would sound on any album with realistic room or hall verb. it's a weird contradiction, but it is like that. In real life i find sometimes that the realistic response to specific playing of the pianotec can inspire the player in it's own unique way that the sampled pianos don't, and that absolutely justifies it's place within the collection of virtual pianos.
Thank you so much for taking the time to check out the review and for your kind words! We also appreciate your excellent insight here. We are always super impressed by how thoughtful, knowledgeable, and articulate our community members are here. Your additional insights are fantastic. Thanks again! :)
@@MerriamPianos, thanks, and thanks again for the great comparison!
I went ahead and bought Pianoteq (although I haven’t had much chance to use it yet). For my purposes, there’s another consideration: Microtonality. Pianoteq appears to have extremely-versatile microtonal capability. I recently picked up a Lumatone keyboard, and I’m looking forward to using Pianoteq with it, in, for example, 31TET tuning!
I don't even play piano, but I couldn't stop watching this - so well presented, lovely playing/demonstration, no frills/fascinating. Have the Pianoteq Pro VST for DAW music creation, so was interested to see what a bona fide player could actually do with it; and now I know. Wow. For what it's worth (and I have no doubt there's a little bias involved), I found the Pianoteq to be more rounded/warmer sounding in this demonstration, whereas the Vienna sounded tighter/brighter and maybe a bit more realistic (albeit less intimate/involving). Just my ears/impression. Much enjoyed the demo, and last but by no means least, your playing.
Thanks so much for tuning in and for the incredibly kind words! I will be sure to pass on your compliments to Stu. :)
Both of these are excellent VST plugins that offer something very different musically. Different tools for different jobs as they say! ;)
The Steinway B Gentle, (on Pianoteq) with some aging and sustain...is incredibly intimate and involving
I would buy a VSL piano if it ran natively on Linux. I love it in your comparison recording. I can only express it as more warmth and brilliance compared to Pianoteq. However Pianoteq is always being improved. The piano I'm playing at home is quite satisfying so I really don't have much to wish for.
@Jet Li This is wrong in so many ways.
1. He is talking about nativ support for VSL on Linux or the lack of it. Why you bring up Mac and if it can run it or not?
2. I doubt you develop anything on any OS just because your statement about macOS "sounds" better than Linux. What? How can an OS "sounds"? Its up to your interface and eventually the drivers of it for the particular OS!
The best comparison of the 2 ultimate virtual pianos. The war of Titans.
I know it's an old video and there is a newer version of Pianoteq out now. But I appreciate comparing various VST's to Pianoteq. What I am seeing is that every single piano sound, whether modeled or VST is different. There are no two acoustic pianos that are 100% identical even in the same brand let along a dozen or so manufacturers who have quite different sounds but all striving to be "the best." And the recordings of those wonderful real life pianos? Yup, all different.
What you have done, intentional or otherwise, is to convince me that I really would like to try out Pianoteq, not as a "throw-away" to get acquainted with something other than the stock sounds in my keyboards, but as a real and useful piano sound that stands up on its own as a legitimate piano voice in a world of many piano voices.
I find myself very attracted to the huge number of parameters that are adjustable in ways that just are not available in a sampled sound. And Pianoteq continues to get better while sampling continues to be recordings, even great recordings, of a piano. Honest question, how much farther can that go? How much farther can modeling go?
I've played piano for over 50 years. I actually find that some of the sounds you've demoed for either of these have my ear more inclined towards Pianoteq. Is if perfect? No. Is it pleasant? I think so.
Hi! Brent here! Thank you for taking the time to tune in and write in with your thoughts and questions. We appreciate it. :)
We're glad to hear that Stu's comparison video has led you to wanting to explore Pianoteq. I think your synopsis is bang on (and eloquently said). Modelling piano sounds are simply another piano sound that has its own unique nuances and characteristics. Plus, the customization available through these engines are quite exciting for certain contexts of use.
In terms of your question about sampling, I think the future of digital pianos is modelling. However, many manufacturers have started using a hybridity of these two approaches, which yields very impressive results. Having a sample at the core of the sound can offer authenticity, while have some dimensions of the sound can offer flexibility. I suppose time will tell where things lead. Thanks again and happy playing!
Very much appreciate this comparison and everything Stu does!
He's a master player for sure.
Pianoteq is by far much easier to install and use that Synchron. It is a very well thought out and I would say elegant software package.
All I can say is that I had nothing but problems when installing and trying to use Synchron. I already have Pianoteq and Garritan CFX (no problem installing or using them with the exception of CFX that I cannot reduce key return noise to 0). First of all, Synchron piano installation is unnecessarily complicated (I tried both free Soft Imperial and Bosendorfer Upright - both relatively small as far as library size). Secondly, no matter what file installation defaults I set, I had installation spread between two disks: numerous directories on my slower disk C: and some (library in particular) on dedicated, faster drive H: (I only want to have this drive used for VSTs). Finally, I had big lag between pressing the key and getting the sound. I have a specific setup. I use FP-90X connected with USB MIDI to my computer and I use USB Digital Interface option Roland has to send the digital signal over the same USB cable to FP-90X (Roland’s DAC, amp and speakers are used). It worked perfectly with Pianoteq and Garritan but no matter what parameters I set, I have this unacceptable delay. I have to use Roland as output for Synchron piano and Roland appears on the list of audio output options (only one option!). Their support did not get back to me. My experience witch VSL is bad (to say the least). I have no idea why no reviewer ever mentions the installation issues and the need for iLock hardware key.
Thanks again for writing in Michael! We appreciate the feedback and will do our best to cover these questions, topics and issues in future videos.
They are both very good. Something about the Vienna just sounds more real and present. I hear a little bit of a mid tone in the PianoTeq that seems not quite as pleasing. Reminds me a little bit of the Kurzweil keyboards that I have played over the years. There is just something in there that doesn't sound terrible, but strikes a little bit of a nerve if that makes sense. Great job on the video as usual. Thanks for the hard work.
Thanks so much for tuning in and for the kind words! We sincerely appreciate it! They are both excellent VST piano plugins, but everyone is going to have their own personal tonal preferences between the two. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights! :)
For me, the sad aspect of the VSL Synchron pianos is that they do not include real una corda samples. They have a fake soft pedal that has very little effect.
For someone who only plays classical music, not having a good una corda is a detriment.
In a post on their forum, they call una corda a "little used" item. (They later softened that comment).
And another VSL person suggested:
"We are currently evaluating your feature request regarding una corda.
Just a thought for an immediate solution: Use the Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 Standalone as host and insert an EQ to shape the una corda sound. Then set automation up to control the EQ's bypass via the soft pedal."
Seems like a lot of work to have to do on what's probably the most expensive sampled piano library.
They have never played Beethoven or Chopin so forgive them! :)
Jokes aside, you have to consider what it means recording true una corda samples, it means basically doubling the size of the library unless they adopt some compromise. It's the same with sordino strings, the bigger the size of the library the less willing producers are to edit double the amount of samples and they choose to filter or eq the material they already have instead. Cannot really blame them, it's a lot of work particularly if you have a library with multiple mics positions.
@@chopin4525
Yes, cost/benefit.
BUT... their older, less expensive non-Synchron Vienna Instruments Imperial does tout
"Recordings of sustain pedal up/down and soft pedal (una corda) down"
"Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal up"
"Soft pedal (una corda) Sustain Pedal down".
Admittedly, that product has fewer mic positions than do the Synchrons.
I'd happily trade the Sychron's loud pedal noise samples for una corda 😅
Of course, I'm guessing that VSL's primary audience is pros who are making sound tracks for videos/commercials/movies and maybe some gigging musicians.
And who are more often using the piano as "another instrument" in a mix.
Not for amateurs or students who want to close their eyes and imagine they're playing something that costs more than a house.
Having both the VSL Steinway and old Ivory II pianos on my machine, I personally found myself generally opting to play the Ivory.
@@JaneFlemingPiano Yep, But the Imperial has no progressive sustain pedal and fewer keys sampled and stretched to save some space. It has a lovely tone but these 2 "faults" always prevented me from acquiring it. The close tone of the piano is gorgeous tough.
Thank you for this comment. It is always important to understand 100% of what you are getting considering the price tag relative to other VSTs. Yes VSL Synchron may very well be the best, but does that mean they should be able to charge whatever they want and justify it because, "no one is better"? Well, no one is better **YET**.
@@chopin4525 i agree with you and it shows the limit and sampling unless you adopt an hybrid approach like most DP where most effects on top of classic sampling is modelled . I think pianoteq has clearly an edge here as the way they model sustain pedal , half pedalling and soft pedal is second to none . Garritan Is one the rare who have sampled with Una corda , so indeed the library is massive but their sustain is a bit buggy .
Well. A lot to think about. Though I am a "Modelling" fan, I have to go with the V.S.L. . The Lustre coming off that initial "Sample" is, for me, very engaging even though at lower levels the flavour of the tone is more "One Note" if you will. To my ear, the Pianoteq comes off as a very "Canned" sound. Thanks for showing the partials difference too. Love your skill.
kyrhy: I think I understand you. I have faith that modelling will take us to where samples are now (in sound integrity) and way beyond too, but I believe that samples still have the edge at the moment. This is reflected on DPs too. Yamaha still rules for sound on DPs IMO, and the new CP88 boasts the CFX patch plus a Steinway patch. Wow!
Thank you so much for ALL your very helpful RUclips videos. They are informative and literate and very musical--just what we need to help make big decisions.
You're very welcome! We really appreciate the kind words and are happy to hear that you have found Stu's reviews/comparisons helpful. :)
Just for whatever it’s worth, I’ve found that changing Pianoteq’s settings can be something of a slippery slope: _Seemingly-tiny_ changes can have bigger effects than we’d imagine.
For example, on both the Hamburg and New-York Steinways, I voiced in more fundamental, and EQed up the low end. _However_ I quickly discovered that even just 1dB of fundamental boost quickly sounded like an unnatural cartoon! I was able to get away with a little more boost in the EQ - about 3dB without it sounding unnatural.
Generally speaking, I’ve found that I can get away with _somewhat_ larger tweaks to the _model_ parameters, like hammer hardness, for example.
Thanks so much for sharing your insights and discoveries! I'm sure other Pianoteq users here will find the tips handy. Sometimes, small brushstrokes go a long way I suppose! :)
Amazingly detailed review !!! Thank you so much, it will be the Pianoteq for me, sounds much more tri-dimentional to me; and I have great reverbs to make up for the room ambiance !!
You're very welcome! It's our pleasure! Thank you for tuning in! You really can't go wrong with either of these excellent VST plug-ins. They are both very impressive. :)
Excellent review Stu, thank you. I fully agree with the magic and air of the VSL Synchron that you describe around 24:00. I was fortunate to play a D a few times in a large concert hall; "player position" is quite amazing - and memorable - in this setting. I've been intrigued by Pianoteq but not taken the leap yet. There is an animated digital quality that doesn't quite work for me in comparison with a well-sampled VST. My current go-to is the Synthogy American Concert D, which imho has some nice qualities of a sampled grand plus a few manageable warts.
With this said, synthetic instruments can be quite inspiring because they are so responsive. Years ago I played a Roland MKS20 Structured Adaptive piano module that was satisfying despite sounding nothing like a real piano.
I think Pianoteq would be excellent for recording in a band mix and also live performance. Being math-based, it may collapse to mono better than most sampled instruments due to more controlled phasing. I also like how dynamics and tone can be shaped to place the instrument precisely where it needs to fit in a complex mix. My Synthogy D is a wonderful solo instrument, but in a mix I tend to process a bit - i.e. mono-ize frequencies below ~200 Hz to anchor the instrument, and perhaps gate the decay to clean up overtones. This can tame the instrument to sound a bit more like Garritan CFX which has been one of my options for full-band productions.
I may take the leap and try Pianoteq. It's certainly versatile enough to find many uses in production.
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your excellent insights! It is certainly interesting to consider the backend "math" involved with any type of digital conversions, whether it be sample/bit rate or collapsing from stereo to mono. That would be an interesting subject to explore in greater detail down the road! Thanks again and all the best! :)
I have both but obviously it's just my opinion: I find Pianoteq with its modeling still a little bit unreal, you can hear the vibration of the strings as plucked instead of hammered. However it is very popular because it does not cost a lot, it is not expensive on hardware resources and it offers a good dynamic response (quite rare among VST). The Stainway VSL also has a great dynamic response (I find it the one with the best of the VSL pianos).
I have both and i can say that the vsl have something that no other sampled piano can offer, it's sound super realistic, and has all the dynamics that a real d274 can offer
The pianoteq on the other hand has lots of tuning and voicing features, and the resonance engine that they used on it is top notch, but the actual sound is anything but a real piano, sometimes at the mid to low velocities it sounds real, but as soon as you go up in velocity or down in the bass, it sounds super artificial, playing fortissimos on the bass would make you cry (at least i cried for my 230£ when i heard it😁
Thanks for tuning in and sharing your experiences with these various plug ins! They all offer something a bit different, but it is great to hear that you've found something you really connect with. :)
What I find most interesting at the ending is that clearly both are the same pianos (considering one is sampled and the other is a simulation, its quite fascinating), but it felt to me like the VSL was with me in the room, hard to describe.
Absolutely! It becomes a game of fine margins and tiny nuances in some cases. :)
Thanks for this video, I really enjoyed it, I keep coming back for your excellent playing has well has your presentation.
Thank you very much for that video, I was waiting.
Nothing plays as well as pianoteq lol, VSL basic sample sound is richer and more authentic than PT but PT is infinitely more fun to play around with, you just sit and play music and feel it, it’s all organic. I struggle to play any sampled pianos anymore.
Pianoteq is definitely a heckuva plugin and I definitely agree that it is a lot of fun to play! Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing your insights! :)
Utterly brilliant review. I have the Pianotech VST and Ravenscroft 275 VST. I find the sampled Ravenscroft VST ever so slightly warmer. Possibly (as you say) due to the sampling process like the mics used and recording space. However, it is very close.
Yes the sample libraries sound warmer to me, but I don't own any of them.
The VSL sounds nice & bright but also a bit flat & thin ....as Pianoteq sounds round & full with additional stuff as Hammer/damper noise , the wear slider among other stuff u can adjust to make it sound even more authentic to the real thing......also more easier to install & dont hog your cpu like sampled baesd piano vsts.
It comes down to a matter of personal preference as long as the musical application of the plugin. However, the point you made about the demand on your CPU will be an important consideration for some users. :)
great review and comparison. amazingly, i liked more the pianoteq. the vienna symphonic sounded too "brassy" for me. on the other hand, in another of your videos, i much preferred the keyscape yamaha (beautiful rich nuanced tone) over the pianoteq.
Thanks so much for checking out our videos and channel and for the kind words! We're happy to hear that you're finding the reviews helpful. :)
Good review, both sounded really good. The VSL sounded brighter, but what was the velocity curve comparison?
Love your reviews!
Thank you so much for this video. It is an amazing tutorial for both VSL and Pianotek, topped with very inspired demo performances. But I would like to ask if you could address Roger's comment from 9 months ago regarding the set-up of the controller you use and the changes applied to the velocity curve. I also have a Roland RD 2000 and I can't get some of my vst's to sound right, probably because of the velocity curve adjustment, even though they are very interesting plugins: Galaxy II, Ravenscroft and True Keys American have been the most frustrating.
You're welcome! Thank you for taking the time to check it out. We really appreciate it. When this video was made, Stu was using the Roland RD2000. However, I am not entirely sure as to what his velocity curve settings were. I will pass this question on to the production team and, perhaps, this issue can be tackled in a comprehensive video that covers "how to get the best performance out of your VST plugins" or something to that effect. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
I agree that Pianoteq's reference to specific brands and models of pianos is suspect. It seems more marketing to me than anything else. That said, one issue that you are dealing with is that you only have the "Standard" level of Pianoteq, not the "Pro" version which gives much more nuance in the control of the settings. I only recommend purchasing the Pro version as that's what you will end up wanting, and it costs more to step up each time. While, I'm a Pianoteq owner and player, I really like the sound of the VSL pianos. There is a thickness there that is missing in the Pianoteq. What I've been saying since my DGX arrived is that when the DGX CFX is added as support under a Pianoteq voice, the end result is astounding. Everyday that I play my setup, I'm knocked out by how beautiful it sounds. It doesn't matter much which Yamaha piano voice you use, but the Pianoteq voice changes the tonal realism significantly. It's the Pianoteq that adds realism, but it's the Yamaha that adds richness and thickness to the tone. I think the Yamaha perhaps thickens out the fundamental. I say it all the time that the two voices playing together are much better than either one by itself. Obviously the VSL libraries are much more sophisticated than the Yamaha DGX voices. One problem with Pianoteq is that it's really hard to comprehend exactly what each setting changes. For example I find their voicing concept weird and not my experience with actually voicing acoustic hammers. I don't have a computerized oscilloscope which I believe would be helpful. As always your playing is absolutely lovely. Please share some of your MIDI's so we could experiment with our instruments under the control of your hands.
I don't think it is marketing. In their website they have an animation of what appears to be done, and they show what looks like the Fourier series of a function, at least to start with. This is what might be happening: first of all, they state they recorded an actual Steinway D-274 at the New York Steinway Hall, in collaboration with Steinway & Sons. Now, my crazy guess is that they developed a sound wave function from those recordings, and approximated it by finding its Fourier series, which would be the fundamental and harmonics. In the animation, they call the function S(t) and it appears to be made of sine functions only (no cosines). Then they add a term that contains the partials (which contains an inharmonicity coefficient inside a square root), and that seems to give the sound its character. Then they add some reverberation, sympathetic resonance, etc. I have looked at some articles online about physical modeling, and they always seem to break down the model in different parts, but I wasn't able to see a sort of final wave function... maybe I am expecting something incorrect. There are partial differential equations of 2nd degree involved and some other stuff, and many articles are presented as thesis for a master of science in mathematics and engineering departments (just a quick search in the basic google engine). I have no idea what they actually do, but they are using a real Steinway D-274 to develop the model, and I am sure their model is a decent replica of the wave function of the actual piano. It is not like they added a bunch of partials and harmonics and said, "Oh, this sound like a Steinway to me, let's call it Steinway D". Technology is evolving, the models are evolving, solving differential equations by numerical methods on a computer is limited to the power of the computer and the complexity of the method, and we might see much better iterations of Pianoteq in the future. At the present moment, I don't think Pianoteq is that great. We might just be praising a fairly primitive model. I had Pianoteq 4 before and I have tried Pianoteq 7 now, it is a lot better, but still weak.
@@Instrumental-Covers They modeled their C. Bechstein from a digital recording. The great thing about Pianoteq is it is constantly improving with regular updates and also loading presets takes no time at all. And where else can you build your own piano to your particular liking? Their 'K' piano which many think is a model of a Kawai is actually their own creation resulting in a 6 foot 11 inch grand piano.
@@sawry1 Yes, they have a piano they call "K2 Grand Piano", that it is not based on any specific model. Apparently, neither Kawai nor Yamaha have approved their sound. They state that Steinway & Sons, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, Grotrian and Petrof, have all approved their sound and playability. They have a piano they call YC5, and they give enough reference to infer it is a Yamaha grand (possibly the C5), but they don't openly say it. From a mathematical point of view, if the model relies on a Fourier series or some type of series, then its limitation may come from not having enough terms in the series to produce a better approximation to the real recorded sound. Or if the numerical methods needed to solve a partial differential equation are using some type of recurrent algorithm, then again the approximation is limited to the number of iterations you can compute in real time. I am trying to give you possible scenarios as to what could be limitations to Pianoteq. This is a mathematical model (let's say a system of partial differential equations), its solution is found using numerical methods that approach more and more to the solution as you do more and more iterations. But you have the time constraint: you can't just leave the computer overnight calculating a note, as playing is happening in real time. Therefore, the algorithm must be stopped with a less ideal approximation. This results in having less harmonics and partials of higher order, which makes Pianoteq to sound a bit dull, like it doesn't provide enough sparkle and richness in the sound. This may not be a problem for dark sound lovers with rolled-off treble (hence Kawai dark sound lovers may find this program great), but for people who want to hear all the details of the treble (Yamaha style), this program is not giving them the sound they look for. In the future, more computing power will allow faster real time calculations and more terms can be added to the series, or more iterations can be calculated on those numerical methods that require iterations. This is of course my guess, but it is based on how some numerical methods work and what happens when you add more terms to a series that approximate a certain function. That will result in more clarity to the sound. I think right now it is limited to people who like dark, unclear treble, rolled-off high frequencies. Again, this is all made up, it is just my wild guess.
@@Instrumental-Covers I play mainly rock, so I guess the finer nuances of the sound don't really matter, but for Classical I guess it's different. The YC5 is the Yamaha C5.
@@Instrumental-Covers I appreciate your knowledge, which on many occasions has been shown to be greater than mine. Undoubtedly they must have some method of develop their various brands. I started out with the Bluethner and still like it. I then bought their Steinway B which didn't grab me. I have their Bechstein, and now the two Steinway D's plus one other that I can't remember. At least in my use case, buying more piano models is largely a waste, I could have just stuck with the Bluethner and been just as happy. I do believe all their models may be simply marketing even if it is modeled after the real thing with some reverse engineering of the sound waves. I do think Pianoteq is an amazing product, and I have nothing against them at all. The fact that it runs natively on Linux is the only reason I use it, and it's the only reason I don't use a VSL library which they refuse to port to Linux. Once you use a Linux computer for an extended period of time, you will find it impossible to deal with all the bullcrap that is an integral part of M$ Windows. Mac is not much better. I tried an iPad for my sheet music a few years ago, and as a Linux user it was a disaster. There was no file manager, and it could be directly connected to a Linux box in the same way Android devices can. I am tempted to get an M1 if they get Linux running on it, and it's my understanding that they are very close.
I've gotten off the track here, but all I know is that Pianoteq playing in conjunction with the internal DGX pianos creates a wonderfully rich sounding home instrument. I think in the past you have said something like that is not a good solution, but at least in my case it works spectacularly well. My gripe is that it still leaves me with electronic clutter, and the DGX is big heavy beast and all the features that I thought I would like hardly have been used at all as I'm concentrating just on acoustic piano music albeit on a digital piano.
In a first impressions I hear better the Pianoteq. But being honest prefer a little bit more the VSL sound.
The VSL has a warmth of sound that is missing in Pianoteq, albeit that Pianoteq is very realistic. I can tell you adding a DGX voice under Pianoteq makes a world of difference.
Wonderfully informative and illuminating comparison, thank you! This really helps understand the issues when comparing VSTs.
In the final comparison both plugins sound very good, but isn't there a significant difference between the “out of the box” sound of the Synchron and the Pianoteq?
Is the Pianoteq perhaps better suited to someone who is able and willing to expertly tweak the plugin to get the piano sound she's after at any given time, whereas the Synchron might be better for someone who wants precisely and always the Steinway D sound, without having to do too much tweaking?
So the choice would still be primarily between sampled and modeled, which, oversimplifying, would seem analogous to the choice between acoustic and digital!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad to hear that you enjoyed the video comparison! :)
I think your assessment is quite fair. Of course, it is a matter of opinion, but, when it comes to VSTs, there are some that seem to have abundance of adjustable parameters whereas others seem to be far more geared towards using presets.
Generally speaking, modelling-based engines provide a greater number of adjustable parameters versus sampled-based engines. However, with many companies opting for some semblance of a hybrid approach (samples combined with modelling elements), things are getting a little blurry in that regard.
This was a really-helpful review, thanks again! As I think I mentioned in an earlier reply, I went with Pianoteq, in part because I’m big on Microtonality (using Lumatone), which Pianoteq makes really easy.
7:09 - “none of Pianoteq’s sounds come from an actual piano”: I’m pretty sure that’s “only” 99.5% true; there are some subtle, secondary or tertiary sounds that are highly-likely recorded. They would gobble up a lot of CPU processing power to simulate, where a simple recording would be equally effective.
For example, applying the pedal itself produces a subtle, quiet sound, and I suspect that sound is recorded for a slight added-realism boost. Similarly, their classical-guitar sound has a guide-finger position-change “neck-squeak” sound that is highly-likely recorded.
Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you found the video helpful. Also, you may very well be right related to some of those sonic nuances being recorded. Naturally, that would be a question for the developers of Pianoteq. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
Hi Stu,
Don't know if you noticed: you forgot to change the opening title as it's still showing Roland vs Kawai ...
This review is done using a 2-channel stereo setup. But the pianist Stefan Mendl (Vienna Piano Trio), who was in charge of choosing the actual Steinway D-274 used for the Synchron Stage Vienna, has played this virtual piano with 5 high-end studio monitors: one center channel, left, right, and 2 ambient side/rear speakers. When the guy tweaking the virtual piano for him started adding all those extra microphones (there are 11 microphones), Stefan exclaimed, "Wow!" and started laughing. Real pianos don't make sound left and right. Even the bass strings on a piano don't sound "left", since they run diagonally across the soundboard. In any case, I would say that the bass in a real grand piano sounds sort of in the middle of the soundboard, not left. Collapsing the sound of a piano to left and right is an oversimplification.
Very good points, although there is a certain illusion that the bass comes from the left and the treble from the right. My personal opinion is that the bass strings must effect the soundboard more than the very short treble strings. That said, the bridge of the piano is toward the outer edge of the sound board. Maybe the sound waves from the vibrating strings actually transfer to the sound board and the bridge is just more of an anchor point. What you described as it relates the VSL recordings is that they have created a composite voice that is very rich and warm. More experimentation needs to be done running two or more incidences of Pianoteq that are slightly different from one another.
@@JoeLinux2000 I spent some time playing different isolated notes on a Kawai grand piano, with my head inside the soundboard, because I was building a speaker system for digital pianos and wanted to see where the sound really came from. So, this is not a theoretical opinion of mine, it is what I actually noticed from my experiment. The treble was pretty much to the right on the very top end, as the soundboard is just a tiny piece of wood towards the end... yet it sends sound through the rest of the piano. In addition, there is a strong 100Hz (mid-bass) note even on the very top due to the mechanical noise of the action. I have also checked that by isolating the soundwave using audio software and applying a low-pass filter. Regarding the bass notes: they are not to the left. If you place your head inside the belly of the piano, like I did, you will see the sound is dispersed. I think the illusion of the left bass sound is stronger if you are using a stereo setup, but a stereo setup is a fake representation of a grand piano. In real life, the sound blooms from the belly of the piano.
@@Instrumental-Covers Your knowledge and experience is wonderful, and I accept what you say on this matter to be absolute fact. I'm interested in taking off the strings and maybe even the plate of my older authentic Chickering Grand and installing a digital piano inside to replace the existing action which is warped. To conclude this post, I find you bring a lot to the table in these discussion threads, and I very much enjoy all that you have to offer. It generates a lot of good discussion and insight.
@@JoeLinux2000 Thank you so much! I appreciate it very much. Wow, that sounds like a hard project! I have seen a few people installing digital pianos in grand piano shells, but they use the original digital piano speakers... not a good idea. If you do that, I would recommend that you leave the soundboard and install 4 transducers. They are cheap (about $15 each). They are called "sound exciters", but you have to buy the right type. That is my favorite type of experiment with digital pianos, I think you will really like it. I have put 4 transducers (same thing that the Kawai CA99/NV5S uses) and placed it on a large thin plywood board (a square with sides of 4 feet). Let me tell you this: it gives you lots of bass (which takes me to another favorite topic: Open Baffle Speakers) and if you walk around the house, the piano sound doesn't change! Like in a real piano. This type of speaker is called DML (Distributed Mode Loudspeaker). Let us know if you decide to make the transformation to your piano, that will be very interesting to follow.
Instrumental-Covers These are very interesting observations. I used to have a Steinway D and all Steinways and probably other makes have a tapered soundboard. As the bass strings cross over diagonally it makes sense the bass vibrations originate from near the thick central portion. The action does make a fair bit of mechanical noise, first when the hammers strike the strings and then when the whole action arm falls back down. There might be some noise from the dampers too when they are raised or lowered back on the strings, just scraping the edges during contact. The centre of the soundboard is quite a distance from the player so it might make sense to place the speakers or monitors further away from the player.
The VSL sound more like a real piano with lots of resonance.
When I play the VSL and the Pianoteq, the VSL sounds a little bit smoother but also less live than the Pianoteq. I get a better dynamic response with the Pianoteq played with a Roland RD2000 that sounds like the Piano is in front of me and that response is bad when I play bad (dynamic wise). However the harmonics of both are great, and even dissonances that are resolved sound real and not harsh on both. The fine reflections on the strings that are not played are perfectly felt on the Pianoteq with the resonance calming down super realistic when I keep the sustain pressed that is different on the VSL.
Phil Best has done a video where he feels Pianoteq is best for "live" performance.
Plz review Roland rp 30 it's a good digital piano....I will be glad if u make a video on it..☺️☺️
Very nice playing. Two fundamentally different pianos, I would say. The PT sounds more tinny in the midrange. Fixing this in a real life piano, by the way, may just be a matter of voicing the felt on the hammers. I'd also say that the presentation of the VSL in the soundstage is better.
I find Pianoteq Pro hard to voice. I don't understand their concept of voicing as it seems different than needling real hammers. On an actual acoustic piano voicing is used to even out the differences between hammers and the overall hardness, or brilliance of the the sound or mellowness and perhaps mushiness of the sound. New hammers have to be voiced up, older hammers generally become too hard, bright, and brittle sounding. No matter what the climate, they tend to go bad.
OMG, that throaty sound, which almost sounds like a whipping koo koo (like in the word wood) sound in pianoteq around the midrange and starting bass range really bugs me. I really wanted to like pianoteq, because in some ways I see it as a step up from the Roland sound on the HP605. I just can't get past that koo koo sound, which becomes really apperant in some songs. Still, I hope they keep improving because it is such a cool piece of software and technology. In the meantime, I'm going to try to check out all the VSL pianos and put the time into editing the velocity, note volume, etc. Thanks for these videos, I love the channel.
You're very welcome! Thank you for tuning in and sharing your thoughts! Naturally, tonal preference is a deeply personal and subjective thing. With that said, you can definitely bank on the Pianoteq technology and platform to keep improving. :)
Stu: have you tried the Ivory 3? any thoughts? Happy new Year to you and your family. Cheers!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! I am not sure if Stu has tried the Ivory 3 VST yet. I don't personally have any experience with it either. I will add it to the list of potential VST plugins to tackle in an upcoming review. Thanks for the suggestion! Happy New Year to you as well! :)
Hi Brent! Thanks for the response. Happy New Year also to you and your family. All the best. @@MerriamPianos
Are you going to test Pianoteq 8? I wonder what you think of it.
It is on the list of VSTs to review in the upcoming future. We will do our best to get around to it sooner rather than later. ;)
I am looking for advice on speakers. What is a good size that will fill the room with the sound of a Grand Piano. I have a Kawai VPC, Apple M1, Ravencroft and Pianotec software, Volt One interface and Yamaha HS5 speakers. This setup sounds really good from my playing position. But is a small sound and only really good close. When you are playing back in these comparisons, what speakers and amp are you using? Would 8 or 10 inch work better to entertain in my home?
You should equip yourself according to the size of the room where you are playing. A small room: Hs5. An average room: HS7 or T7V (with a subwoofer...). A whole house or the exterior: DXR. The way you place them also plays on the feeling (on the ground, on feet, at the top of the wall). And above all, it is the acoustic treatment of the room that counts enormously.
Thanks for your usual excellent presentation. I’m enjoying using my Kawai VPC (nee Merriam Music..thanks Patrick). I wonder if you’ve had a chance to audition the latest version of Cinesample’s Piano in Blue? This version can run on the free Kontact player. The sampled piano is the legendary Steinway D at Columbia NY studio. The one that Gould recorded the WTC on as well as Bill Evans with Miles et al. That Steinway has a incredible sound captured by Cinesamples. I wonder where that piano is today?
Hi Terry, if it could help you I bought it as an upgrade; I have not found any difference in the sampling with the previous version: it remains a beautiful sound but with not much dynamics.
Hi Merriam Music! if you can buy the standard version of Pianoteq which of the pianos would be best to choose? Because you can then choose only 4 pianos.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! That really comes down to a matter of subjectivity and also the musical application you are predominantly using the VST for. Classical playing versus pop music production are very different realms with very different musical needs for instance. I may suggest choosing complimentary pianos that will cover all of your different musical needs. :)
The FFT spectum of a piano shows higher amplitude in the low freqs and a soft steep slope to higher values. High pitch nores are above the backgroung of wood resonance curve while low pitch notes are barely distinct. I wonder if VST can overcome this phenomenon of wood not resonating in the higher freqs, and provide an extended richness in that range. High octave notes should also cause resonance in if not wood, a pure or composite material, and lead to a new piano. In the past wood was the only chioce, now, possibilities are infinite
Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing these wonderful insights! It is quite an interesting and exciting prospect to be in a situation where technology (like VST plugins) might be able to 'improve' or 'alter' the musical behaviours of a piano in a sonically beneficial way. It will be interesting to see what the coming years and VST plugins offer! :)
The perspective "fake" vs "real" is not relevant. It is all about how it sounds playing, mixing, and within your track. PianoTeq is amazing and extremely versatile. It is more like "raw" footage off a camera; you get way more headroom. You can really tweak the sound to fit your creative needs within the mix.
it's all about mixing, and how it sits in your track, except when it isn't. Proper piano playing is mainly about solo playing, so the perspective 'fake vs. real' is as relevant as it has ever been, and to date, there's no comparison between a sampled piano and a real one. Personally, I don't care about whether I have a thousands mic positions or only one....in my experience no sampled piano library can even come close to the dynamic range and harmonic content of a real piano, and even the most modest upright is 100 times better than ANY sampled library. A sampled library IS a fake, a compromise at best. That's all it is, and so far it has never been more than that. For a generic part in a pop song buried between other instruments it is good enough, but for playing classical music it always falls short. In my experience sampled libraries aren't of any use for piano pieces over grade 3-4 ABRSM, i.e. post beginner pieces. Even for playing a miniature masterpiece like The Wild Horseman by Schumann, a sampled library is pretty inadequate, and for anything more difficult than that, it is completely useless. For generic pop music it is ok, but it's still a compromise. That's all it is, let's be honest.
@@luigipati3815 Seems like we're saying the same thing from different angles. If you play one single note on a sampled piano it may sound more "real" than PianoTeq; though, like you said, playability and how it sits in a mix are key. I agree that "real" isn't just the tone but the entire feel of playing real music. Much like how a synthesizer can also be real or sampled. PianoTeq is real in that sense, the generates sounds as a function of input rather than play back a number of recordings in response to keys pressed.
Why Steinway is soooo good😌 ,
The Steinway D Piano VST is a fantastic plugin! :)
Do you think we can use per note EQ in the synchrons to do the voicing?
I mean we can cut or boost the partials but the thing is "is that gonna effect the sound in the same way?"
It is certainly possible. In terms of whether the results are going to be satisfactory is a matter of subjectivity though.
The feel was much better in Pianoteq with lot of dynamics, although VSL sounds a bit richer but eventually what matters after some time is the feel and connect. I had tried many sampled VST's now uninstalled all of them, Pianoteq is the way to go for sure. When you are so close with a 50MB software then why need 250GB installation ?
I always wonder the same thing in terms of the need for some much free space for the installation! In any case, I'm very glad to hear that you have been enjoying and using Pianoteq successfully. :)
It is a fantastic VST! Thanks and all the best!
@@MerriamPianos Thanks for replying, I am fan of your playing btw 😊
I know stu doesn't do vst reviews anymore, but i really wish he do a compHarrison video between the vsl imperial and Steinway d
Thanks for the suggestion! I am sure we will eventually tackle more VST reviews in the future, but, at the moment, we have a lot of acoustic and digital pianos we want to cover in review/comparison videos. :)
Im considering one of these... I have the RD2000 and I love its V-Pianos for live use in a band context. for solo playing at home its not as nice or dynamic. I have Addictive Keys that came from with something but Ive never really liked that - certainly not enough to make me play it over the RD. I have "The Grandeur" that I do really like for home use. ive Demo'd Pianoteq ever evolution since 4 and its never really done it for me - But following some of your tweeks it is sounding better - though not sure its any better than Grandeur (or even quite as nice). Garittan and Ravenscroft are also on my mind but again - not sure there THAT much better than what I have. the VSL stuff seems REALLY good 9though I cant justify the Pro level - would need to be the standard which isnt much more than Ravenscroft or Garitttan). Not sure If the Steinway D or the Yamaha would be the better compliment to The Grandeur though - but Im erring towards one of those. They just seem to pop out as being really good and just right without tweeks. Id also say, for me its far more about the dynamics and how it plays than the actual tone it produces.
There are certainly a lot of great VST piano plugins out there to explore. But, as is the case with shopping for a physical instrument, striking the balance between musical satisfaction and budget may be a factor.
@@MerriamPianos actually, budget isnt an issue as such.... Ive just bought a 3rd wave, and a digital mixer to tie my room together - and not long ago picked up an Osmose (Im lucky at my current place in life to be in this position). Its more justifying how much Id use something as Im primarily a synth player at home. Its more about how much to pay to TRY something. with some VSTs (including Pianoteq) you get that chance without outlay. Not sure Id be happy paying for the VSL Pro piano without actually testing it out. Pianoteq Standard, VSL basic, Ravenscroft and Garittan are all around the same price - and Im comfortable at that level. If I went ths VSL route and it I was happy - and felt upgrading would add something else, then Id be happy to do so at that point.
No comparison. A modeled piano can't compete with a meticulously sampled grand. I love your playing but the PianoTeq demo at the end got so annoying in its timbre at the end I had to FF to the VSL. I own 5 of the 7 VSL pianos and I still believe they can be tweaked to be better because there is something about the Synchron Hall that is hard. I believe the answer is less room mics and adding a convolution reverb. I'd like to hear the ribbon and tube mics being sent to the Teldex IR.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in and sharing your thoughts! A lot of it comes down to personal preference of course. Pianoteq is certainly not without its fanbase. At the end of the day, I view things as "different tools for different jobs". The nice thing about VST plugins is that, unlike pianos, they don't take up any real estate, so there is always the option to have a large assortment of them at your disposal. :)
I am probably asking a silly question here since I am a newbie in the world of VST so I would appreciate your answer: is it possible to get the VST sound through the digital keyboard's speakers when you are playing?
I do know how to save a midi file and use VST to merge it with a performance video and thus produce a good videoclip. But if my laptop is connected to the istrument could I completely replace its sound with a VST on the go and enjoy the VST while practicing for example?
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! That is not a silly question at all! The answer is not particularly straightforward however. In theory, this is possible if your piano has a "Line In" feature. You would take the output from your audio interface/computer and plug it into the "Line In". With that said, depending on your particular setup, you may run into some latency (delay) issues. Running through studio monitors from your interface/computer is generally a more reliable option in my experiences. Plus, it is universal as not all models have a line in.
@@MerriamPianos thank you for your kind reply. This does open doors to more options since voice could be manipulated. I myself don't like roland's modeling technology much but otherwise the fp-90x is perfect, now it's back as an option!
Are you using the standard or full libraries for the VSL? Either way you are comparing a $60 piano model to a $300 to $550 library that takes up 118 to 266 gigs of disk space? For the hard core concert pianists the nuances are probably real. But to most home audio producers who will never even see or smell one of these real instruments, either represent an amazing step up from the factory samples of most keyboards. Pianoteq wins hands down on value. It certainly is very very very good, and for the price of one VSL library, you can buy four pianos from Pianoteq. The Pianoteq bundle which includes every sound package they make is under $1000. Wow! Whats a D cost - $15,000+?
It's complicated to compare two different technologies. I own vsl pianos, they are really excellent. Besides that, I find that Pianoteq is finally a real option since the last v7 updates, I really like the dynamics of its pianos, it's really very pleasant to play. The sound has improved as well.
The day when Pianoteq will bring almost as much sound credibility as current vsl pianos, it will be the death of purely sampled pianos. Vsl is very expensive, but for a solo recording, Vsl is for the moment ahead thanks to the credibility of the sound.
In any case, it's not because I own the Vsl pianos that I'm going to deprive myself of playing on Pianoteq. I wouldn't have said this a few years ago, but they've come a long way and hopefully this will be the future of vst pianos. I can't see myself installing 500GB pianos... I think if you can't afford Vsl (and all the necessary equipment...), Pianoteq is really the best buy !
Could you explain how this is connected? For example, is the sound from external amplifiers or from the sound system in your digital piano? Iam interested in doing this with my Roland LX7.
His voices are coming out of the sound chip of his computer, at least in this video. The RD 2000 has voices but no internal speakers or amplification. He could use them, but doesn't in this video because he is using it simply as a MIDI controller.
Hi George. Have you been able to connect a VST to your Roland? I too have an LX-7 and although I like the action I don’t like the sound very much. Therefore, I’ve been thinking of VST’s lately. Just wondering what your experience has been. Thanks.
Hey, I found Pianoteq 8 was terrific. But recently I just realized that an other modeling software was as good if not better. It's Arturia Piano V3. I loaded a midi file for Arturia and Pianoteq and was able to reproduce almost exactly the sound of Pianoteq, so I guess no huge difference except for the price. You get 12 pianos for 249 euros with Arturia (I would say 6 are for very common usage). It's 349 euros for 4 with Pianoteq ... Could you do a review of this software ? I think it's way underrated.
Thanks for the suggestion! We will do our best to tackle a review/comparison featuring the Arturia Piano V3. At the end of the day, the preference comes down to personal taste. But, it sounds like the Arturia software is a versatile option. :)
@@MerriamPianos If you want to experiment to see how close/different they can be, I give you what I did. First I got a midi file for "As time goes by" and duplicate it on two midi tracks in the DAW, one with Pianoteq, the other one with Arturia. I tried on Pianoteq "NY Steinway D Jazz". I switched rapidly between both while playing and change the settings of Arturia as follows:
- switch to "Japanese Grand" (!)
- remove limiter
- increase volume to 8.06 db (if volume is not equal bass and trebble will differ)
- reverb to 3.84%
- brightness set to full
- dynamics 0.386
Anyway I guess you will hear that Pianoteq has a more "live" sound while Arturia's sound is more "recorded". But I really can't say which one I prefer. Especially when Arturia has two rather convincing presets for Bill Evan's sound!
I hear the VSL truer to a large Steinway grand.
I can certainly understand that! Both of these VSTs are great, but every player will have their own preference between the two of course.
I might object about something: you improvise, which makes you unconsciously try to get the best sound of each VST, but makes a real comparison difficult. Another thing is that a jazzy style would not mind the slightly artificial attack profile of the Pianoteq sound (sounds like a pure sine wave to me), while in classical piano music it sounds too "electronic". Some of the "dirtyer" spectrum of the VSL might be because of the fact that the real strings, especially the bass ones) are composite, coiled, which adds a specific tone colour that is missing in Pianoteq (more harmonics). This can be somehow changed by modifying the "unison width" but I still find it not satisfactory. Playing a single note, without pedal, still does not sound natural enough for me, even in Pianoteq 8. (classical piano player here 🙂)
There are definitely going to be situations where certain pianos or, in this case, VST piano plugins will be better suited for one musical style over another. However, no matter what, it will always come down to a personal and subjective experience. One player may find the Pianoteq far more appropriate for classical playing over the VSL, while another player may find the exact opposite. The most important thing is to test as many options yourself as possible to determine which one connects most with your playing style and preferences. :)
@@MerriamPianos If they will properly solve the attack modeling problem (which definitely exists, it's not subjective), it'll be ok. Even more ok if they will add some overtones of the composite strings.
Pianoteq is les than 200 mb , against of How much gigas? Pianoteq is the future not only for pianos
There is certainly something to be said for the size of a VST and the burden (or lack thereof) that it takes on your processor. For some users, that will be a very important consideration.
is this standard or full synchron?
The vsl's sound more Natural... Pianoteq is somewhat midrange focused (not the same feel as when you sit in front of a real Steinway D)
They both offer something a bit different of course. But, the important thing is to find a piano VST that connects with your preferences and playing. :)
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!!
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I'm relatively new to all of this. However I just got the VSL MIR Pro & Venues. Would you PLEASE place the PianoTeq into MIR and set up a "Multi-Mic" from pianoteq instrument into the MIR space? It'd be WONDERFUL to learn :
"if" it is possible
"How" to set it up
"Which" venues may provide some of the best characteristics for certain pianoteq instruments.
Edit*:P.S. As I continue to watch, and considering my above request... I am wondering how your comparison would fare, if you positioned the Pianoteq version within the VSL "Synchron Stage" venue of their "MIR" collection... Considering that the spatial ambience is not reflecting the same/similar environment between them.
Pianoteq sounds clearly electronical .i prefer vsl
They are both excellent plugins that offer something slightly different! At the end of the day though, everyone will have their own personal preference. :)
Stu I appreciate this but your F1 key is stuck down on Pianoteq and is going to affect all of this
The low F key on the piano that is
I think the screen display is just frozen with the F1 key being selected. It is not affecting any of the playback or sound from the plugin. :)
for me, VSL steinway sounds realistic. while the pianoteq one doesn't even sound like a steinway
That is certainly fair! Every player will have their own preference musically of course. :)
@@MerriamPianos yeah i agree.
Stew,
My ears hurt when I see your velocity curve on pianoteq.. I have the feeling you can’t make pianoteq act “right” just because of that. It seems you can’t fully enjoy it. Have tried lowering that curve a bit..?
Thanks!
Excellent videos..!!!
Sizewise the sampled library is a computer memory hog. It is not worth the tiny details in "authenticity" of the sound compared to Pianoteq 7 Modeler.
The load on the CPU will certainly be a factor for some users. From that perspective, the Pianoteq software is quite appealing. :)
"Any kind of tone from the pianoteq"? You didn't get the ton of the VSL , if it would been possible we allready had presets
Thanks so much for taking the time to check out the video! Sorry - I am not sure I understand the question.
In my opinion, Pianoteq cannot even be compared to other sample libraries, let alone VSL. An acoustic piano has a soul. You feel it when it plays. They have to catch him first. As if it were very good, they also added tons of settings. When they really fix the realism problem in future versions, then they can break new ground. Until then, pass from me.
That is certainly fair. It is all a matter of preference. Some players will favour sampling over modelling, depending on their tastes. At the end of the day, the most important thing is to find a piano sound that you connect and resonate with. :)
At first listening (only part way through the video) I'm surprised to find so many similarities.
One difference is that there seems to be more tonal uniformity across the upper keyboard notes with the Pianoteq. In fact they could be more exciting. That reduces the Steinway illusion slightly.
And is it possible/probable that the harmonics or sympathetic reasonance are working differently in each case?
I think it is in fact the sympathetic resonance that creates the difference, and you could hear that in the lovely but small Estonia grand he was playing in the previous video. As for evenness, Pianoteq is deliberately uneven to add realism.
Personally i never got pianoteq and I'm surprised by all the people say it is even close 🤔
Pianoteq....stop searching...
seriously pianoteq vs vsl ? :D seriously? like 1978 estonia vs 2021 fazioli :D goodjob.. actually this is important video because I feel many pianists still are confused :D
VSL had more personality
That said I'm going with pianoteq for the 50mb file size
They both have their pros and cons, but, in either case, they are excellent VST piano plugins. :)
@@MerriamPianos yeah both sounded amazing, would you be able to recommend any string vsts that work in the same way as pianotheq? I work from a laptop so large sample libraries aren't an option for me
I'll never understand why Pianoteq is all the rage, but to each their own, I suppose. To me, it just sounds as fake as a virtual instrument can be. The only thing it seems to have going for itself is the fact that it's not CPU/memory-intensive, but given that it's $149 for the cheapest bundle on their site, I'd much rather go for a Garritan CFX or Ravenscroft, both similarly expensive VSTs. I think even Garritan CFX lite is a much better investment at ~$60.
To be honest, I clicked on the video for more listening samples of the VSL as opposed to the comparison, haha.
Pianoteq runs natively on Linux, and that's why I use it. Claiming it sounds "fake" is a bit harsh. Nevertheless, it is fake, and therefore a pretty darn good forgery. Again it sounds fatter when supported by a secondary piano voice. Stu should play the two together and see how they sound if his Apple is up to the task.
It's interesting how people lock on to different aspects of the sound. To me I hear it as some kind of EP patch, which doesn't mean it sounds bad, but the idea that other people hear pianos as being part of the same category..... I cannot fathom.
@@BuzPiano I hear digital pianos as being a new type of instrument somewhat like the difference between a harpsichord, piano, or Rhodes piano. Frankly I don't really care for the sound of most acoustics compared to a really good digital. I own two acoustic Chickering grands and definitely prefer my Yamaha DGX / Pianoteq setup for a multitude of reasons. For starters, it sounds better, is beautifully tuned, can be played very musically at lower volume levels. and has a tremendous selection of voices. Obviously you don't care for Pianoteq, but it is unquestionably an example of very wonderful software programing. As good as it is, it's slightly thin and is definitely enhanced by adding a DGX voice to it. My opinion of the DGX voices by themselves is very low. I do not enjoy the sound of it as a virtual acoustic without the addition of a Pianoteq voice. Chasing the perfect digital voice is somewhat of a lost cause. You have to be satisfied with what you have, whatever it is, or hope to be able to find and afford something better.
@@JoeLinux2000 I don't deny that the software does plenty of things right (especially the astonishing level of customization/parametrization that modeling allows for), but if Pianoteq is the holy grail of modeled acoustic pianos, I'll stick to sample libraries when I want to emulate the sound of an acoustic piano. I agree with Buz that it really has the character of an electric piano more than an acoustic one, and that's okay. It doesn't have to have the most natural sound. However, I find it particularly jarring when people use it for recording things such as classical (or classically inspired) pieces as if it _does_ have the most natural sound.
As a final remark, yes, it is not possible to emulate an acoustic grand perfectly such that the real and the digital would be indistinguishable, but I don't think striving for that perfect sound is any more a lost cause than trying to record an acoustic instrument perfectly is.
@@BlueGrovyle From my experience any piano that originates from speakers modeled or sampled sounds recorded. I will agree that good samples are warmer than modeling. I think Stu hits the nail on the head. What seems to be missing from Pianoteq is the room. It's generally very dry and very clean. Some sample libraries bring a warmth to the sound that Stu defines as being part of the room, I could not agree more.
IMO the Pianoteq in the mid-range sounds like an acoustic piano has been blended with a Fender Rhodes. Awful!
The Pianoteq sound may not be for everyone. It certainly has its place for certain musical applications. Some players may prefer a more traditional recorded sample, such as the VSL sample sets.
Pianoteq sounds like cheap synth. I don't understand why pianists are buying it.
This is no longer so true on the sound quality, there is really progress. Pianoteq's playing dynamics bring realism for the pianist, which all purely sampled vst are totally unable to offer, except vsl pianos. The dynamics of Ravenscroft and other Uvi pianos, Walker 1955, Garritan CFX, etc... They all lack dynamics and it's a disaster for the interpretation of the pieces.
So what hides behind you're words is that the modeled pianos are shit! And doesn't sound like real piano at all, And that's it.
So Roland's "modeled" pianos sounds even shitier then even the fake pianoteq pianos sounds that's all i always claiming. Thanks 👍
Being a fan of modeling, I'm glad my tonal memory is not so good.
Boring comparison and presentation unfortunately!
We're sorry to hear that you did not enjoy the video, but we appreciate your feedback and for taking the time to check out the video!
This is Very impressive! Btw how you mix the plugins to make it loud without losing the dynamics? I spent a week on this but still can’t find a solution 🥲, there is really not much videos about mixing the piano plugins only talks about how to record.
Thank you very much! We appreciate the kind words! In order to ensure that your dynamics are retained, it is important to ensure there is not heavy compression or limiting anywhere within your session or VST. Sometimes, there can be some type of master limiter or something to that effect on that can hamper and diminish some of the dynamics of your performance.
There is a « je ne sais quoi » in your title, who goes wrong….😉 Maybe because you’ve done 2 videos this week-end. Except this I find pianoteq more « électronic » than VSL, which I found more realistic. But it’s my point of view
Pianoteq sound like u play a Casio in restroom , sometime it even sound not like a piano , more like a synth pluck preset
It is a matter of personal preference and context of use. Not everyone will resonate with the sound of a particular piano or VST.