3:01: Whenever a RUclipsr like him announces it's going to be a short video, you know it's going to be at least twenty minutes, if not some multiple of that.
Mine seems to match his pretty well. I’m autistic and wonder if he also might be. (I’ve also had “short” 60-75 minute phone calls with, say, my father about foreign train timetables decades ago.)
It's pretty uncommon in my experience to see someone so tremendously intelligent and with such great analytical skills who's also modest, unassuming, and down to earth.
Intelligent? Here me out Bec tbh it’s not fair you just winged a project that is years in the making David would have researched anything for weeks before doing anything on it ... just shows the passion ain’t there and tbh you not knowing that this was David’s creation and he is the first maker of the board and concept shows a lot ... wish you would have delved into the origins and history of why David wanted to build such a board and pc if you would understand that I think it would be better if he educated him self around the board instead of making just a tech video explaining a bunch of non sense
Well DIY community moves to QA territory. Hardware industry has integrated circuit emulators for that exact reason. At some point when system scales up you can not visualize all steps at once. Very nice problem solving, you should get into commercial with these skills.
Sometimes, when you're too close, too deep, doing too many things into a project, you miss things. Happens to the best of us. Also, Kudos to you, Adrian! Troubleshooting broken, production units is very different from troubleshooting prototypes. I've seen many experienced RMA tech brought to their knees by prototypes. So, thanks for that behind the scene view and your experience!
"Like a bloodhound, Adrian jumped on the board and literally within a few days he found the source of the problem causing most of the issues ... without him I really don't know if I would have been able to put it back together" -- Kevin Williams High praise indeed. You sir, do have expertise. Passion and perseverance count 100x more in my book than any rote knowledge. What you don't know can be learned, but drive can't be taught, that comes from within.
Adrian, wow! You’ve definitely underestimated your own learning and teaching capabilities. It’s really amazing to see how far you’ve come from the beginning of your channel, right up until now. And you’re still learning a lot of things with each repair you do. It really keeps me stimulated and I really recognize a lot of myself in your way of working. Thank you for your awesome video’s!
Seriously, he could be making $250K a year doing this kind of work. If this was a giant company with this kind of board issue he would have saved them millions.
There is no economic incentives that exist in the modern world to spend time debugging and fixing computer hardware to the level of analysis (excepting the hardware design phase) that Adrian does with all the retro (and now neo-retro) gear that he has videoed over the past few years. Is hard to imagine that there is anyone out there that might exceed his knack for doing such repairs.
Adrian, wonderful, wonderful work. Glad to see you're helping them with this. One thing I'd suggest, that you ask them to add in the next revision is a plethora of test points. There's lots of space on the board, and adding little breakout pads for you to drop a scope probe (along with grounding points) would help troubleshooting a lot. You're definitely right about status LEDs though. Crucial for troubleshooting.
Years ago my friend was working on an analog neural network interface and the first pcb didn’t work while the prototype wire wrap did. He worked for two days trying to find out why and couldn’t. I told him I’d take a look and in a couple hours figured out that his prototype differed from the schematic. Two input pins were crossed. A simple program change fixed it without reworking the pcb.
Thanks really need this today. I so upset that these things are happening in our nation. I need something like your video to help settle me down. My anxiety and blood pressure as never been so high.
My very first Z80 project worked at 4MHz. Well, not worked. The clock was 4MHz. It used 2 Z80 PIO’s, and when I went to 2.5MHz, EVERYTHING worked perfectly. And that was my first introduction to timing diagrams and the unbelievable importance of making sure you understand what the manufacturer wants you to know via those diagrams. Tons of information in those diagrams. I borrowed a scope and found a LS138 I/O decoder that was fine at 2.5MHz, but too slow at 4MHz. I used another IC by another manufacturer (from Texas), and it worked at 4MHz and thus I learned (the very hard way) to read those timing diagrams. That little project is still running today. (I love the Z80. It is an outstanding processor.) Thanks for a GREAT video, Adrian! Very good to see your skills growing by leaps and bounds!!
A couple of years ago I stumbled on a recommended video about a C64 that was left outside to die and you got it back to life. This was the moment that I was (hesitant at first, because why another retrochannel?) certain to subscribe, because I knew you had the absolute TALENT to troubleshoot this stuff. Measurement, measurement, measurement - not obvious location, location, location. I think 8-bit guy knew this as well, as it wasn't an accident he reached out to you.
I think you sell yourself too short. You're very skilled at what you do and I love how you explain what it is you're doing. Keep up the great work and thank you for your videos!
Brilliant video Adrian... As you have observed.. Its the 2nd set of eyes... Love the fact that its all my favourite retro RUclips R's collaborating on this project.. Also love the fact that it will be ATX compatible.. When it gets to production.. There will definitely be a sale here!!
It seems this hobbyist is the star of the show! The others involved in this project are heaping praise on Adrian for all the help he provided. I am looking forward to the final result.
Well I confess, I'd never heard of it, so curiosity made me Google for it before watching your video. What an interesting project and I'm thrilled to see you are involved in it. A great job troubleshooting this. It's hard enough when you know how it's meant to work and perhaps have a working computer to compare against. I imagine it must be really hard when you have only one of 2 that exists. You are very modest about your skills really, I don't think many people have the skills, patience and tenacity to work out these problems and fix them. Awesome job Adrian and a nice relaxing video to hear you talking about it.
As far as I'm concerned, you're a hero. I have often run into problems where I just needed a different set of eyeballs on it. And it was almost better NOT to tell the person what my suspicions were as to the problem. Outstanding work on your part and also, Kudos to the entire team, because this is going to be a great project. All good wishes!
When a supposed "amateur" (with a bag of skills larger than many supposed "experts") has way, way more energy and enthusiasm than the ideator of the project itself. You would expect the 8-but guy to be announcing this actual huge milestone (well, his last statement about the project was a laconic "the second revision board does not know and we don't know why") and instead, nothing. Well, I guess he's too busy to follow his own project as a leader, oh well :D On a brighter note, Adam: yours is one of the most entertaining and educative channels about retrocomputing and your skills seem to be ever growing. Well done, you are an inspiration.
I think this may be a bit unfair. I think when you work on a pet project for such a long time that you're really excited about, it can be extremely disheartening when you run into debugging roadblocks like this that have you running in circles. Such an emotional gut punch would explain David's terse statement and apparent lack of enthusiasm. I'm positive that David, et. al. have great appreciation for Adrian's assistance and a renewed excitement to get this computer produced and out the door.
It is so cool to see one of my favorite RUclipsrs troubleshooting a computer that originally was the brain child of one of my favorite RUclipsrs. I would love to see more of this!
That's awesome work. It certainly seems like troubleshooting a design that's never worked would be a much more daunting task than troubleshooting the average production board that's failed.
The notion that we might actually get the Commander 16 is pretty exciting. Most "new" retro machines don't tend to get too far, and the few that do make it to production tend to be pretty niche in terms of what they can do to justify their cost (the Gigatron and PE6502 leap to mind there). Many thanks for your help in keeping this excellent project afloat, hoping to have one of my own someday! Further, yeah, now that you mention it I absolutely want that FPGA graphics board in my IIGS.
Here me out Bec tbh it’s not fair you just winged a project that is years in the making David would have researched anything for weeks before doing anything on it ... just shows the passion ain’t there and tbh you not knowing that this was David’s creation and he is the first maker of the board and concept shows a lot ... wish you would have delved into the origins and history of why David wanted to build such a board and pc if you would understand that I think it would be better
As a communications Tech for 35 years, troubleshooting very complicated systems, a 2nd set of eyes on the trouble was golden and a must some times, it was like with 2 people working on the same problem just made it easy to figure out , plus it was alot of fun coming up with the fix. Always thought it was interesting how every tech troubleshoots differently, tho we were all trained the same. Guess its just how the brain works.
Hey Adrian! Long time watcher, first time (I think) commenter. Got to say I find your debugging/repair videos the most interesting and I learn the most from them - and I'm so glad you got to do the video on the X16. As soon as I saw Kevin's comment that you had diagnosed the issue I was keen to see a video with the details of what you'd found. So thanks for the time and effort you put into these! Cheers.
I'm continuously fascinated by how much Adrian knows about vintage technology, but not just from a historical perspective. It's knowing how the vintage tech works at such fundamental levels. Right down to even understanding what the pins do and how the ICs function. I love being educated about it.
I know nothing about computers. I barely know how to watch RUclips on my Chromebook. This video helped me understand so much about the circuitry of the stuff that I am working to trying to build. I am mentally disabled, 66 years old and in an assisted living facility. My only workspace is on the seat of my walker next to my bed.
I'm glad you made the BBC micro comparison, it was all I could think about while you were describing the circuit. And if you want to do some 6502 assembly and diagnostics, just fire up a BEEB it has a 3 pass in-line assembler built right into the basic interpreter and 6522 "user port" that could easily be used to program a EEPROM. The BEEB was also the machine that hosted the ARM development system so it has some pedigree!:-)
I wish I could find a car mechanic who is "not an expert" in a similar way... I love your videos, even if I don't understand everything:) Love from Hungary!
Brilliant video Adrian. Whilst I think you are being uneccesarily humble, you raise some really good points about troubleshooting that I think actually are skills that are being lost in the IT industry these days. There's nothing wrong with asking for advice, for a new set of eyes. Remember, the person asking you is absolutley counting on you having a different perspective, and the fact you are not utterly embedded in the issue is an advantage. Furthermore? I have lost count on the times where stopping and walking away from an issue has actually been the best thing. It gives your brain a chance to reset, and whilst you will no doubt go back over ground again, I always find that fresh, uncluttered reexamination derives results.
@@macdonalds1972 Don't be so harsh on David, he did his fair share of hardware fixing both on video and before he went to make YT videos. He's just not as deep into the hardware side as Adrian. Yes, that prototype rare stuff that was fried a couple of months ago was not nice but he had a patreon only video where he elaborated on the subject. He knows what he's doing but I tend to like Adrian's way, like he doesn't do weird mods to hardware, the only thing I found weird is that he is throwing away the RF shields in C64s but now I understand why he does that.
@@Dukefazon i was a viewer of Murray as well, but always noticed that air of self entitlement and a rather unpleasant way to interact with fans, incredibly different than Adrian or Clint - and no it's not that rifle thing, LGR himself is a gun nut but never did that crappy stunt. It's the fact that he basically destroyed a rare prototype just to make a quick buck by pumping out the video, and was unabashedly unapologetic about it. He's a RUclipsr with a nasty personality, but by no means the be all end all expert he thinks he is.
Very good example of the team effort method! Sharing knowledge and experience so everyone improves. As for the bad IC socket issue, long ago I learned to never scrimp on cheap sockets. Working at an electronics manufacturer in the '70s & '80s we bought enough Texas Instruments chips that they practically gave us free sockets. But after having long sessions troubleshooting and replacing intermittent sockets, we re-spec'd the board to use machined contact sockets. They cost appreciably more, but much less in the long run, never had a socket related problem again.
Such an awesome video. I sure has been wondering about whatever happened to the Commander X16. Now I know :) and This was indeed great news, aspects and valuable information. Thanks Adrian for making this stunning video.
goodness used to design TTL circuits back in the day, timing, and transition states is the bomb on this, yep the bbc micro is a classic example of how to manage timing transitions etc, you have to be real careful, which it sounds like you have, so kudos. Kevin must be in a big forest full of many trees, extra eye are always welcome great video Adrian. they need to reward you in gummy bears! Blinken lights would help (like the gigatron?)
Dunning-kruger effect, those who know the most are the most uncertain about their ability. Seriously terrific stuff all around, I'd love to buy a complete unit when it's done to support the project and get my first experience with a true 8-bit computer to go alongside my own modern personal VR rig, might have to 3D print a few mods for my current black box PC case to match the classy look of the X16's case
It's such a cool project, thanks for the in-depth look! When I was in college, we had a digital design class; the final project was to design and implement a 4 bit processor (using all discrete logic gates!!) that could execute a shift-and-add algorithm to do a multiply. TIMING was THE problem; synchronizing between the ALU, the memory, and the 3rd part (whose name I forget) - anyway the group that got the closest could get any 2 of the subsystems talking, but not all 3 at once. TIMING, as they say, is EVERYTHING :)
It must be a great adrenaline rush to be in design and development to get something working at that low of a level. I'm sure it's rewarding to troubleshoot and fix something that has worked in the past, but new designs that don't work correctly must be the ultimate in frustration and reward. Awesome video!
Very enjoyable 41 minutes. I had wondered where this project stood. Great to hear another enthusiasts opinion on this device. And while I have seen this channel floating around. This is my first time checking it out. Nice place to start.
Paraphrasing from the movie Taken - " What I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for HW bugs like you...." - Great work Adrian!
FYI: His logic was sound if you know how AT-class power supplies and AT power switches from that era are wired (mains through the power switch before returning to the PSU). His error was where he thought the meter was indicating direct continuity where it wasn't. Most of the criticism there was misguided. A paperclip would have been a good way to bypass the monitor if it really was wired like he logically assumed it was (mains split into the monitor where the switch is).
@@emmettturner9452 That kind of cavalier attitude isn't something you bring to a rare prototype of which only a handful are known to exist. You do that with something common or knowingly fixable. It just cemented in my mind that David loves to cut corners and I don't need to reward him for that with a subscription to his channel.
@Adrian's Digital Basement That is very cool! This is the same kind of bare-metal prototype testing that engineers did BITD, and you took to it like a fish to water. The Commander X16 group would be smart to employ your help. Clearly you have the needed skill to tackle the challenges offered by this project.
This must have taken you a lot of time. The video alone was almost an hour, your full time into it must have been many times that. I mean a lot of why all the other asking for help failed vs you is just the time you spent on it. Based on what your analysis I assume a lot of people probably gave him the right ideas, but just giving the direction sometimes isn't enough. I really think your contribution was super valuable. I hope it was worthwhile to you. Not that it's worth all that much but: Thank you for all you do for the retro computing community.
Sometimes it only needs someone who listens. The mental process needed to explain something to someone else can bring on enlightment as it puts the whole thing in another perspective. There's even a name for that in software cicles "rubber ducking". Explaining your code, even to a simple yellow toy duck, allows for new insight.
Yep definitely, sometimes you're just too close to it to be able to make the mental leaps necessary too, you get stuck in this, it can't be x it has to be caused by y or z loop, and repeat it pointlessly. Ultimately it's always caused by x lol.
This is the beginning of the foundation of Open Source as well "Linus' Law" "a thousand eyes makes all bugs shallow". I hope much of this project is FOSS
Oh come on! You CAN call it 'troubleshooting expertise!' We all know it and that's one good reason why they asked you to look it over. And I'm seriously thinking that Commander X16, when it comes out, might finally be my first machine running anything like a Commodore. They weren't really common in Brazil back in the day and I always wanted one. I can't remember, off the top of my head of any Commodore clones being made around these parts, like TRS-80, Apple II and ZX-80 clones that were more common and some of which helped me get hooked on computers a long looong time ago. Keep up the excellent work and videos, Mr. Troubleshooting Expert :)
Honestly modern PCs could use more activity LEDs, it's always cool to visualize the work the Computer is doing when you throw a bunch of work at it and such
@@bitoxic Bil helped a ton! He didn't have the board in front of him, so he could only help so much. He's a busy guy, and I'm really thankful for his help. I know you guys are joking, but I was super glad to be getting his advice and none of this mess was his fault. Totally mine. :-)
@@TexElec Chill dude, you're right, I'm just joking :) The fact that Adrian is so humble, he doesn't have a huge subs number and he helped a lot and he's not even admitting it makes it extra special. Adrian deserves higher view/subs count!
@@Dukefazon I completely agree, and I couldn't be more thankful for Adrian's help. I was extraordinarily discouraged, but Adrian 180'd that completely and I can actually see the light again!
Great vid 👍 thank you for your time to do it 😊 the project started as a cheap 80’s computer with modern components, and cheap to build, but think when done it’s not going to be cheap and the raspberry pi will win 🤔
It has a different point than the RPi. I REALLY want one to finally learn to program 6502 assembly, only 33 years late. The X16 is made to be programmed on the actual computer, with software in ROM. And you can understand the whole computer, just like many guys knew lots about the C64, PET and Amiga. I am already a fan 😀
Congrats, Adrian. I'm a regular subscriber to 8-bit Guy. I don't remember this project. I worked on something similar in the early 80s: a Z80-based timeclock. It employed banked RAM and ROM. This was my first foray into writing diagnostics in assembly code! I was responsible for 'bringing up' a totally new (cost-reduced) project. I know that feeling when you get a new board working! It's a shame you didn't get all that troubleshooting on video :(
Everybody's learning, so cool! Ben Eater has a lot of videos of this kind of stuff. Cool to watch. I am looking forward to this board coming out. I got into computers late, the Raspberry Pi was the thing that showed the potential that computers could really do, to me. After DOS all I wanted was for the computer to do what I wanted and I spent my time being frustrated by WINDOWS and it's proprietary software. So it would be cool to have a computer with a ground up manual would be so fun. The 8bit guy could spend the rest of his time doing videos on the different ways to use the board.
Less scripting & editing = more enjoyable content! Incidentally, I was a 6502 convert from the Z-80 in the mid-80s. Well, I still love both but quickly found that the 6502, being RISC, was faster than the Z-80 per MHz. You could write less code for Z-80, eg the LDIR command, but LDIR block move is s-l-o-w compared to a tight loop written in 6502. Can't wait for this!
Fantastic work Adrian, or should I say X16cellent! You're now an official Commando. 🎉
Your friend in retro, Perifractic
I love Adrian's sense of time.
I totally get it though! He doesn't truly go into detail with his fixes, unlike any of his other videos. Fascinating stuff
3:01: Whenever a RUclipsr like him announces it's going to be a short video, you know it's going to be at least twenty minutes, if not some multiple of that.
@@ropersonline Really whenever Adrian says this will be short, make popcorn, you're in for a feature-length film. :B
I bet a quickie with his BF takes an hour.
Mine seems to match his pretty well. I’m autistic and wonder if he also might be. (I’ve also had “short” 60-75 minute phone calls with, say, my father about foreign train timetables decades ago.)
"Not long video" he says .... 42 Minutes later ... love it :)!
I was thinking that haha. Maybe Canadians measure time in a diferent way hahah
LOL, you saved me from making the same comment. LOL
When you have watched LockPickingLawyer's videos, then you know what "not long" videos are.
Adrian's Digital Basement - Redefining 'Nibble'. LOL.
mail call mini = 45minutes at least.
not a long video = 45 minutes as well. lmao I love it.
Adrian: "It's a nibble sized video"
Me after 41 minutes: *burp* "That was an entire meal!"
He discussed only ONE item he received this time, instead of boxes full!
@@ruawhitepaw And there was no Haribos :-(
@@zeero4ever You haven't watched Kevin's video. There were haribo's sent allongside the board. Adrian just didn't mention it.
@@galier2 I was talking about THIS video. Adrian talks 45 Minutes about 1 Item, even without discussing Haribos ;-)
Expected a nybble, got a byte
Adrian, I really respect your humility. I think it's what makes your enthusiasm for all you do genuine.
It's pretty uncommon in my experience to see someone so tremendously intelligent and with such great analytical skills who's also modest, unassuming, and down to earth.
Intelligent? Here me out Bec tbh it’s not fair you just winged a project that is years in the making David would have researched anything for weeks before doing anything on it ... just shows the passion ain’t there and tbh you not knowing that this was David’s creation and he is the first maker of the board and concept shows a lot ... wish you would have delved into the origins and history of why David wanted to build such a board and pc if you would understand that I think it would be better if he educated him self around the board instead of making just a tech video explaining a bunch of non sense
Morale of the story? Always RTFM! :) Excited to see progress with this, keep it up!
A wild Ben has appeared
Hey Ben
Moral not morale.
Well DIY community moves to QA territory. Hardware industry has integrated circuit emulators for that exact reason. At some point when system scales up you can not visualize all steps at once. Very nice problem solving, you should get into commercial with these skills.
Sometimes, when you're too close, too deep, doing too many things into a project, you miss things. Happens to the best of us. Also, Kudos to you, Adrian! Troubleshooting broken, production units is very different from troubleshooting prototypes. I've seen many experienced RMA tech brought to their knees by prototypes. So, thanks for that behind the scene view and your experience!
"Like a bloodhound, Adrian jumped on the board and literally within a few days he found the source of the problem causing most of the issues ... without him I really don't know if I would have been able to put it back together" -- Kevin Williams
High praise indeed. You sir, do have expertise. Passion and perseverance count 100x more in my book than any rote knowledge. What you don't know can be learned, but drive can't be taught, that comes from within.
You're too humble Adrian. It sounds like you helped the project out way more than you're taking credit for. A job well done 👍
Adrian, wow! You’ve definitely underestimated your own learning and teaching capabilities.
It’s really amazing to see how far you’ve come from the beginning of your channel, right up until now. And you’re still learning a lot of things with each repair you do. It really keeps me stimulated and I really recognize a lot of myself in your way of working.
Thank you for your awesome video’s!
"I'm just a hobbyist...but here's your working board"
But he doesn’t dare show it running. That’s Kevin’s privilege! :)
I'm just a hobbyist too, but I am several dozen levels below Adrian's 'hobbist' standard - top video, nice one!
yet in his compaq deskpro series he did a hex edit on one bit in the rom
Seriously, he could be making $250K a year doing this kind of work. If this was a giant company with this kind of board issue he would have saved them millions.
There is no economic incentives that exist in the modern world to spend time debugging and fixing computer hardware to the level of analysis (excepting the hardware design phase) that Adrian does with all the retro (and now neo-retro) gear that he has videoed over the past few years. Is hard to imagine that there is anyone out there that might exceed his knack for doing such repairs.
I love how humble you are Adrian.
Keep up the good work!
the way you go about troubleshooting bad boards has always impressed me, amazing work!
Adrian, wonderful, wonderful work. Glad to see you're helping them with this. One thing I'd suggest, that you ask them to add in the next revision is a plethora of test points. There's lots of space on the board, and adding little breakout pads for you to drop a scope probe (along with grounding points) would help troubleshooting a lot. You're definitely right about status LEDs though. Crucial for troubleshooting.
Years ago my friend was working on an analog neural network interface and the first pcb didn’t work while the prototype wire wrap did. He worked for two days trying to find out why and couldn’t. I told him I’d take a look and in a couple hours figured out that his prototype differed from the schematic. Two input pins were crossed. A simple program change fixed it without reworking the pcb.
Thanks really need this today. I so upset that these things are happening in our nation. I need something like your video to help settle me down. My anxiety and blood pressure as never been so high.
My very first Z80 project worked at 4MHz. Well, not worked. The clock was 4MHz. It used 2 Z80 PIO’s, and when I went to 2.5MHz, EVERYTHING worked perfectly.
And that was my first introduction to timing diagrams and the unbelievable importance of making sure you understand what the manufacturer wants you to know via those diagrams. Tons of information in those diagrams. I borrowed a scope and found a LS138 I/O decoder that was fine at 2.5MHz, but too slow at 4MHz. I used another IC by another manufacturer (from Texas), and it worked at 4MHz and thus I learned (the very hard way) to read those timing diagrams.
That little project is still running today. (I love the Z80. It is an outstanding processor.)
Thanks for a GREAT video, Adrian! Very good to see your skills growing by leaps and bounds!!
Adrian: I want to be “hobbyist” like you when grow up. I am only 50 now. Greetings from Karachi, Pakistan.
heeey asian viewer! im from malaysia
@@araigumakiruno Glade to hear that. Greetings from Karachi, Pakistan.
I'm 55. When I grow up I want to be a train driver :)
0:06 Oscar winning performance!
A couple of years ago I stumbled on a recommended video about a C64 that was left outside to die and you got it back to life. This was the moment that I was (hesitant at first, because why another retrochannel?) certain to subscribe, because I knew you had the absolute TALENT to troubleshoot this stuff. Measurement, measurement, measurement - not obvious location, location, location. I think 8-bit guy knew this as well, as it wasn't an accident he reached out to you.
Big Clive would be proud of your camera work
LOL!
BigClive would have pink jump wires :-)
I love it when my favorite youtubers work together.
I think you sell yourself too short. You're very skilled at what you do and I love how you explain what it is you're doing. Keep up the great work and thank you for your videos!
Brilliant video Adrian... As you have observed.. Its the 2nd set of eyes...
Love the fact that its all my favourite retro RUclips R's collaborating on this project..
Also love the fact that it will be ATX compatible..
When it gets to production.. There will definitely be a sale here!!
It seems this hobbyist is the star of the show! The others involved in this project are heaping praise on Adrian for all the help he provided. I am looking forward to the final result.
Congrats on getting to the bottom of the Commander X-16 issues!!!
I'm sure you have really helped get that project going again!!
Leave it to Adrian’s excitement to make your day! God bless you
Well I confess, I'd never heard of it, so curiosity made me Google for it before watching your video. What an interesting project and I'm thrilled to see you are involved in it. A great job troubleshooting this. It's hard enough when you know how it's meant to work and perhaps have a working computer to compare against. I imagine it must be really hard when you have only one of 2 that exists. You are very modest about your skills really, I don't think many people have the skills, patience and tenacity to work out these problems and fix them. Awesome job Adrian and a nice relaxing video to hear you talking about it.
Wow, great job Adrian! I’m very excited about this project and would like to get an X16 someday. You really proved the “second set of eyes” effect.
I read on X16 facebook group that you helped the developers; a BIG THANK YOU! YOU ARE THE BEST!!
Commander X16 and Adrian Black? I'm so pulling up the chair for this one!!!1
I've been following this machine since the start and had no idea it was finished
@@thomassmith4999 iirc it isn’t
As far as I'm concerned, you're a hero. I have often run into problems where I just needed a different set of eyeballs on it. And it was almost better NOT to tell the person what my suspicions were as to the problem. Outstanding work on your part and also, Kudos to the entire team, because this is going to be a great project. All good wishes!
When a supposed "amateur" (with a bag of skills larger than many supposed "experts") has way, way more energy and enthusiasm than the ideator of the project itself. You would expect the 8-but guy to be announcing this actual huge milestone (well, his last statement about the project was a laconic "the second revision board does not know and we don't know why") and instead, nothing. Well, I guess he's too busy to follow his own project as a leader, oh well :D
On a brighter note, Adam: yours is one of the most entertaining and educative channels about retrocomputing and your skills seem to be ever growing. Well done, you are an inspiration.
I think this may be a bit unfair. I think when you work on a pet project for such a long time that you're really excited about, it can be extremely disheartening when you run into debugging roadblocks like this that have you running in circles. Such an emotional gut punch would explain David's terse statement and apparent lack of enthusiasm. I'm positive that David, et. al. have great appreciation for Adrian's assistance and a renewed excitement to get this computer produced and out the door.
It is so cool to see one of my favorite RUclipsrs troubleshooting a computer that originally was the brain child of one of my favorite RUclipsrs. I would love to see more of this!
That's awesome work. It certainly seems like troubleshooting a design that's never worked would be a much more daunting task than troubleshooting the average production board that's failed.
Glad to hear they've got you on the case! Can't wait to watch this later.
Happy to see this, watched *TexElec* discuss you helping him out on this and was hoping for an update from you. Thanks for posting.
Cheers,
Adrian, you are too modest. You are an excellent diagnostician.
also congratulations! just finished this video, this is a very considerable achievement! you deserve a one-off golden board with all fixes applied!
The notion that we might actually get the Commander 16 is pretty exciting. Most "new" retro machines don't tend to get too far, and the few that do make it to production tend to be pretty niche in terms of what they can do to justify their cost (the Gigatron and PE6502 leap to mind there). Many thanks for your help in keeping this excellent project afloat, hoping to have one of my own someday!
Further, yeah, now that you mention it I absolutely want that FPGA graphics board in my IIGS.
"Just a hobbyist" ...
A very experienced hobbyist.
He shouldn't be so modest. He is very talented and an inspiration.
Ditto on the inspiration bit!!
@@Dreams_Of_Lavender a uneducated one as well
Here me out Bec tbh it’s not fair you just winged a project that is years in the making David would have researched anything for weeks before doing anything on it ... just shows the passion ain’t there and tbh you not knowing that this was David’s creation and he is the first maker of the board and concept shows a lot ... wish you would have delved into the origins and history of why David wanted to build such a board and pc if you would understand that I think it would be better
I was wondering what's happenned to the project, I'm happy that it's still going :3
As a communications Tech for 35 years, troubleshooting very complicated systems, a 2nd set of eyes on the trouble was golden and a must some times, it was like with 2 people working on the same problem just made it easy to figure out , plus it was alot of fun coming up with the fix. Always thought it was interesting how every tech troubleshoots differently, tho we were all trained the same. Guess its just how the brain works.
Hey Adrian! Long time watcher, first time (I think) commenter. Got to say I find your debugging/repair videos the most interesting and I learn the most from them - and I'm so glad you got to do the video on the X16. As soon as I saw Kevin's comment that you had diagnosed the issue I was keen to see a video with the details of what you'd found. So thanks for the time and effort you put into these! Cheers.
I'm continuously fascinated by how much Adrian knows about vintage technology, but not just from a historical perspective. It's knowing how the vintage tech works at such fundamental levels. Right down to even understanding what the pins do and how the ICs function. I love being educated about it.
Congratulations on becoming an X16 Commando.
I know nothing about computers. I barely know how to watch RUclips on my Chromebook.
This video helped me understand so much about the circuitry of the stuff that I am working to trying to build.
I am mentally disabled, 66 years old and in an assisted living facility. My only workspace is on the seat of my walker next to my bed.
I'm glad you made the BBC micro comparison, it was all I could think about while you were describing the circuit. And if you want to do some 6502 assembly and diagnostics, just fire up a BEEB it has a 3 pass in-line assembler built right into the basic interpreter and 6522 "user port" that could easily be used to program a EEPROM. The BEEB was also the machine that hosted the ARM development system so it has some pedigree!:-)
I wish I could find a car mechanic who is "not an expert" in a similar way... I love your videos, even if I don't understand everything:) Love from Hungary!
Brilliant video Adrian. Whilst I think you are being uneccesarily humble, you raise some really good points about troubleshooting that I think actually are skills that are being lost in the IT industry these days. There's nothing wrong with asking for advice, for a new set of eyes. Remember, the person asking you is absolutley counting on you having a different perspective, and the fact you are not utterly embedded in the issue is an advantage. Furthermore? I have lost count on the times where stopping and walking away from an issue has actually been the best thing. It gives your brain a chance to reset, and whilst you will no doubt go back over ground again, I always find that fresh, uncluttered reexamination derives results.
It is so easy to go down the rabbit-hole and that is where that second pair of eyes is invaluable. Well done Mr B!
This is such a beautiful piece of hardware. I'm overjoyed to finally see a fully-assembled example! Everyone did a fantastic job!
Sometimes when things comes mad as this. Not knowing all the details on what were tried to troubleshoot it is a blessing.
Thanks for sharing it!
I think you’ve more than earned yourself a spot in one of the first production run Easter Eggs.
I was wondering if you would do a video. Glad you did!
8-Bit Guy: I am gonna get this Commander X16 working!
Adrian Black: Hold my beer.... 😁🍺
"Hold my gummy bear..."
8-Bit Guy isn't a hardware guy; he breaks more than he fixes.
@@macdonalds1972 Don't be so harsh on David, he did his fair share of hardware fixing both on video and before he went to make YT videos. He's just not as deep into the hardware side as Adrian. Yes, that prototype rare stuff that was fried a couple of months ago was not nice but he had a patreon only video where he elaborated on the subject. He knows what he's doing but I tend to like Adrian's way, like he doesn't do weird mods to hardware, the only thing I found weird is that he is throwing away the RF shields in C64s but now I understand why he does that.
"I can loan you my dreml...."
@@Dukefazon i was a viewer of Murray as well, but always noticed that air of self entitlement and a rather unpleasant way to interact with fans, incredibly different than Adrian or Clint - and no it's not that rifle thing, LGR himself is a gun nut but never did that crappy stunt.
It's the fact that he basically destroyed a rare prototype just to make a quick buck by pumping out the video, and was unabashedly unapologetic about it. He's a RUclipsr with a nasty personality, but by no means the be all end all expert he thinks he is.
I used to be an auto mechanic but your videos having me repairing TVs and computers
Very good example of the team effort method! Sharing knowledge and experience so everyone improves.
As for the bad IC socket issue, long ago I learned to never scrimp on cheap sockets. Working at an electronics manufacturer in the '70s & '80s we bought enough Texas Instruments chips that they practically gave us free sockets. But after having long sessions troubleshooting and replacing intermittent sockets, we re-spec'd the board to use machined contact sockets. They cost appreciably more, but much less in the long run, never had a socket related problem again.
Adrian, thanks for donating your time to the Commander X16. I'm so excited about this project!!!
You are a wizard, and you haven't even needed to use deoxit. ;)
Glad to know you're helping with this project! Happy New Year!
Such an awesome video. I sure has been wondering about whatever happened to the Commander X16. Now I know :) and This was indeed great news, aspects and valuable information. Thanks Adrian for making this stunning video.
Hopefully Adrian will get an acknowledgment silkscreened on the final production boards.
He's already thanked in the user guide 😊
goodness used to design TTL circuits back in the day, timing, and transition states is the bomb on this, yep the bbc micro is a classic example of how to manage timing transitions etc, you have to be real careful, which it sounds like you have, so kudos. Kevin must be in a big forest full of many trees, extra eye are always welcome great video Adrian. they need to reward you in gummy bears! Blinken lights would help (like the gigatron?)
Adrian: humble black belt stuff here. Hats off. 🏆
Dunning-kruger effect, those who know the most are the most uncertain about their ability.
Seriously terrific stuff all around, I'd love to buy a complete unit when it's done to support the project and get my first experience with a true 8-bit computer to go alongside my own modern personal VR rig, might have to 3D print a few mods for my current black box PC case to match the classy look of the X16's case
Loved this video Adrian! I've been reliving my youth by watching retro PET/C64 & Amiga videos!
Its weird 10/12 years ago I used to see Kevin almost every day at work.
I am so proud of Master Adrian Po! We bow to your troubleshooting abilities! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Well done Adrian. Happy to see this project moving forward.
It's such a cool project, thanks for the in-depth look!
When I was in college, we had a digital design class; the final project was to design and implement a 4 bit processor (using all discrete logic gates!!) that could execute a shift-and-add algorithm to do a multiply. TIMING was THE problem; synchronizing between the ALU, the memory, and the 3rd part (whose name I forget) - anyway the group that got the closest could get any 2 of the subsystems talking, but not all 3 at once. TIMING, as they say, is EVERYTHING :)
I must say I'm very impressed with what you've been able to do to help with this......Fantastic stuff!
It must be a great adrenaline rush to be in design and development to get something working at that low of a level. I'm sure it's rewarding to troubleshoot and fix something that has worked in the past, but new designs that don't work correctly must be the ultimate in frustration and reward. Awesome video!
Waiting for the X16 and the MEGA65 so thank you for getting it working sir!
This video shows that good troubleshooting skills will allow you to become an expert in most fields you apply them to. Well done Adrian!
Very enjoyable 41 minutes. I had wondered where this project stood. Great to hear another enthusiasts opinion on this device.
And while I have seen this channel floating around. This is my first time checking it out. Nice place to start.
Paraphrasing from the movie Taken - " What I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for HW bugs like you...." - Great work Adrian!
Actually one of the earliest VERA prototypes was installed in a C64 cartridge and David Murry showed us it running on the c64.
Really exciting project. Time to learn 6502 assembler.
8-Bit guy tried to fix it with a paperclip.
and a dremmel :-)
After a third round of retrobriting made no difference, he was all out of ideas...
He tried triggering it with his AR LARP. When that failed, they contacted Adrian.
FYI: His logic was sound if you know how AT-class power supplies and AT power switches from that era are wired (mains through the power switch before returning to the PSU). His error was where he thought the meter was indicating direct continuity where it wasn't. Most of the criticism there was misguided. A paperclip would have been a good way to bypass the monitor if it really was wired like he logically assumed it was (mains split into the monitor where the switch is).
@@emmettturner9452 That kind of cavalier attitude isn't something you bring to a rare prototype of which only a handful are known to exist. You do that with something common or knowingly fixable.
It just cemented in my mind that David loves to cut corners and I don't need to reward him for that with a subscription to his channel.
So underrated channel for his work....
very good camera angle at the end! officially approved!
This video felt like the essence of 8-bit wholesomeness! :) Thank you for the video, Adrian!
@Adrian's Digital Basement
That is very cool! This is the same kind of bare-metal prototype testing that engineers did BITD, and you took to it like a fish to water. The Commander X16 group would be smart to employ your help. Clearly you have the needed skill to tackle the challenges offered by this project.
This must have taken you a lot of time. The video alone was almost an hour, your full time into it must have been many times that. I mean a lot of why all the other asking for help failed vs you is just the time you spent on it. Based on what your analysis I assume a lot of people probably gave him the right ideas, but just giving the direction sometimes isn't enough. I really think your contribution was super valuable. I hope it was worthwhile to you. Not that it's worth all that much but: Thank you for all you do for the retro computing community.
Software engineers and hardware engineers (good ones) will say a second or third pair of eyes are invaluable in debugging.
Sometimes it only needs someone who listens. The mental process needed to explain something to someone else can bring on enlightment as it puts the whole thing in another perspective. There's even a name for that in software cicles "rubber ducking". Explaining your code, even to a simple yellow toy duck, allows for new insight.
Yep definitely, sometimes you're just too close to it to be able to make the mental leaps necessary too, you get stuck in this, it can't be x it has to be caused by y or z loop, and repeat it pointlessly. Ultimately it's always caused by x lol.
This is the beginning of the foundation of Open Source as well "Linus' Law" "a thousand eyes makes all bugs shallow". I hope much of this project is FOSS
You are brave than I am, because designing banking would scare me. BUT I can see the utility from a user/programmer standpoint. Good stuff!
Thank you soo much for this video, because 8 bit guy barley ever uploads, so I will watch u in the meantime
Thank you, it really does help me see the whole picture and your animated hands made the explanations all work :D
Oh come on! You CAN call it 'troubleshooting expertise!' We all know it and that's one good reason why they asked you to look it over. And I'm seriously thinking that Commander X16, when it comes out, might finally be my first machine running anything like a Commodore. They weren't really common in Brazil back in the day and I always wanted one. I can't remember, off the top of my head of any Commodore clones being made around these parts, like TRS-80, Apple II and ZX-80 clones that were more common and some of which helped me get hooked on computers a long looong time ago. Keep up the excellent work and videos, Mr. Troubleshooting Expert :)
Fantastic job Adrian ! Flashing will LED's always make a retro computer better 😀 Lets hope they don't make it go 'beep'
Honestly modern PCs could use more activity LEDs, it's always cool to visualize the work the Computer is doing when you throw a bunch of work at it and such
20:30 - when Bil Herd couldn't help, they turned to you :D
Causing Bill Herd subs move to Adrian's channel!
@@bitoxic Bil helped a ton! He didn't have the board in front of him, so he could only help so much. He's a busy guy, and I'm really thankful for his help. I know you guys are joking, but I was super glad to be getting his advice and none of this mess was his fault. Totally mine. :-)
@TexElec I have no doubt about that... just I believe Adrian deserve to rocket to stardom with the other big boys in the retro arena!
@@TexElec Chill dude, you're right, I'm just joking :)
The fact that Adrian is so humble, he doesn't have a huge subs number and he helped a lot and he's not even admitting it makes it extra special. Adrian deserves higher view/subs count!
@@Dukefazon I completely agree, and I couldn't be more thankful for Adrian's help. I was extraordinarily discouraged, but Adrian 180'd that completely and I can actually see the light again!
Great vid 👍 thank you for your time to do it 😊 the project started as a cheap 80’s computer with modern components, and cheap to build, but think when done it’s not going to be cheap and the raspberry pi will win 🤔
It has a different point than the RPi.
I REALLY want one to finally learn to program 6502 assembly, only 33 years late.
The X16 is made to be programmed on the actual computer, with software in ROM. And you can understand the whole computer, just like many guys knew lots about the C64, PET and Amiga. I am already a fan 😀
Now having fun with the emulator, this is cool
I know only the bare basics of 6502 assembly but I will be very excited to learn more just to develop games for this machine.
Love the perspective you bring to the X16 in this Video! Thanks!
Congrats, Adrian. I'm a regular subscriber to 8-bit Guy. I don't remember this project. I worked on something similar in the early 80s: a Z80-based timeclock. It employed banked RAM and ROM. This was my first foray into writing diagnostics in assembly code! I was responsible for 'bringing up' a totally new (cost-reduced) project. I know that feeling when you get a new board working!
It's a shame you didn't get all that troubleshooting on video :(
This is proper garden shed computing and its fascinating to watch. can't wait to see the finished project
Everybody's learning, so cool! Ben Eater has a lot of videos of this kind of stuff. Cool to watch. I am looking forward to this board coming out. I got into computers late, the Raspberry Pi was the thing that showed the potential that computers could really do, to me. After DOS all I wanted was for the computer to do what I wanted and I spent my time being frustrated by WINDOWS and it's proprietary software. So it would be cool to have a computer with a ground up manual would be so fun. The 8bit guy could spend the rest of his time doing videos on the different ways to use the board.
Less scripting & editing = more enjoyable content! Incidentally, I was a 6502 convert from the Z-80 in the mid-80s. Well, I still love both but quickly found that the 6502, being RISC, was faster than the Z-80 per MHz. You could write less code for Z-80, eg the LDIR command, but LDIR block move is s-l-o-w compared to a tight loop written in 6502. Can't wait for this!
cool! Great Job! waiting here for the command X16 to come out.