I think level 40 would be more interesting to look at class balance in. Too many classes are kind of waiting for those big ticket talents, and it’d be a better indicator of what’s to come
@@IchibanDan yeah, I think the 40 talents being out and seeing how the meta develops and class balance at the 40?’ark would give them better insight on how to move forward with any buffs and nerfs. I don’t think warriors and rogues are going down hill at all, but I do believe more classes will be closer in line with one another behind them, as opposed to having such a large disparity between top and bottom specs/classes. TLDR it’s just kind of a stretch to look at class balance on this phase. Sure we are in “end game” content right now for SOD, but the end game is effectively designed around class design that under developed by nature. Bit of a nothing burger to worry on Edit: just adding to this, things that come to mind besides the shadow priest one mentioned, I do think shaman is going to kind of take off pretty well. Storm strike and elemental mastery with the abilities given already will be nuts. With any runes that are from later expansions potentially in the pipeline, like maelstorm procs, I think they are going to be lowkey a kind of sleeper pick. But we’ll have to see where they go with them. Definitely a hidden potential class depending on what the class designers go with
well, ill answer that unknown now. warriors will do around 750 dps. more if the new raidgear is better than prebis/bfd gear. its been simmed. no one else will b close to that.
It's very hard to buff shadowpriest/frost mage because these classes will absolutely destroy you in pvp with buffs. It's hard to nerf warriors because they already suck in pvp. It's easier for them to justify Hunter nerfs because they're op in pvp and pve
then do like in retail... have different buffs for both.. and in pvp things like mind flay and mind blast can be buffed since are casts and you can counter them with a CC
@@theyondak6090I agree they should be doing more, but one reason they can’t just do it like retail is because the Classic client does not have that infrastructure, it’s not in the code to tune spells differently in pve vs pvp. Additionally, most of the spells in SOD are the same as Classic Era, so unless they dupe all the spells and all their ranks then nerfing anything other than a SOD-specific rune would also result in changes to Classic Era and Hardcore servers.
Exactly what I was going to say. I also think we shouldnt talk too much about balance at 25. Level 40 is a much more reasonable time to consider balance a bit.
You're trolling right? Warlock is nowhere near@@koronomoa3582 Warriors, Rogues and Hunters, while still being behind Ferals. Yeah we can top meters but only if your raid of those classes aren't playing correctly. We don't hold a candle to those other melee.
One thing to note is that Frost mages only have access to Frostbolt Rank 4 (requires level 20, 78-87 damage, 2.6 second cast), and the next rank is obtained at level 26 (132-144 damage, 3 second cast).
"Warrior does the highest damage in the game" "Okay, give them a lot of runes that increase their damage by a flat % of that already high damage." "Alright, I guess..? Next up, shadow priest. They don't scale well with stats, have lower damage and run out of mana quickly" "Just give them a new dot and make them choose between that and their other spells doing damage." "But that doesn't address the core issues. What about ma..." "Fuck off, I'm busy changing deep wounds so warriors scale better with crit!"
haha yeah said it day 1. Decided not to care about cool warrior runes....so instead they decided to throw away quick % dmg runes without engagin their brain. The Meta warrior build which dominates the game will get a totally free 30% dmg increase in 2 runes that will scale with deathwish/trinket/reck/racial synch use in kill phase. Moronic decision.
I dunno, nuance and multiple variables instead of using one variable (parse) to give you the answer? pumping damage on an immovable target dummy (raid bosses) with a stacked raid comp to boost you while also using all the buffs doesnt mean a class is overpowered. try to think of all aspects of the game instead of just one little sliver. Nerf a class for the sake of parses alone and youll cause problems in other aspects of the game like PvP@@StaysafeTV
the thing is all of that is irrelevent in terms of "handicapping" ur raid this ends in a few weeks and you can clear the content in greens with any comp people are overreacting to nothing and should be focusing on "how does this effect the future phase"
I would expect more buffs to come in the future... I am fairly certain since we are only lvl 25 bracket they want to see how things shape out when we get more talents, runes and gear. I think the idea of having AQ20 style spell rank books for caster dps to drop in BFD would be the best way to bring the lower classes inline with melee.
I do care that they're nerfing hunter dps while leaving war and rogue alone, it implies that their philosophy means hunters will never be allowed to be top dps and that it's fine if it's a warrior or rogue.
i mean it's still classic we dont really need a version of classic where casters are better, melee gotta run away and run back to their target a lot of the time. I think melee being the best dps makes a ton of sense.
I've mained rogue AND mage. Every class is powerful and the damage right now literally doesn't matter we are lvl 25. I've 8 manned all of BFD the content is so easy you don't even need all 10 raid slots. Caster's are strong in their own way and not every class can be TOP dps and that's just how WoW works (Rock , Paper , Scissors). IF they overbalance the game's pointless and boring like retail where the world is scaled to everyone's level and progression doesn't exist. We don't need balance.@@sebastianbergstl4423
The only way to balance these classes is to make it rock paper scissors Every class should have a counter to it Otherwise it will be always be a neverending battle of nerfing and buffing
Constant changes, and balance makes it more Reatail than Classic. Won't be long, and every blue wool sheep will be playing the same class, and calling the same abilities, and spells different names...
It's almost like spell power makes casters do more dps while regular gear continues to benefit standard mele classes. They need to add spellpower gear to quest so it brings the bottom up
easy fix would be: - move spell ranks to 40, 50 and 60 that were just out of reach before - dot Crits for affli and shadow - more regen runes This wouldn't solve all isues, but most
It doesnt need to be too balanced. Some classes shine at different things thats the way classic is. If you play a mage rite now yeah you are not doing top dps in raid but you can pull entire dungeons at level 25 while healing to full. Warriors pump in raid but suck in open world gold farming for example. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses.
I don't think it's that big of a deal, it's not optimal as it is but classes still has their uses in raids or outdoors. But I agree the bottom performing classes needs a little boost.
Their healing from DPS only occurs after one of two abilities are used and only for a set duration. Fire mages and Frost mages contribute 0 healing unless the rune into it and give up damage runes
@@cobaltmalt So arcane mages should be within 10% in damage while also healing? Are we so deep in the sauce that we don't care at all what else the class brings to bear?
@@DoffyDogg Most likely true, but I had 2 mages last night in BDF and the healer did do the same amount of damage as the dps mage. To me it seems like mages fulfill a good role in the BDF where you pretty much only need 1.5 healers for most people.
I don't fancy the idea of buffing/nerfing back and forward between phases. Specially frost mage - you have two other dps specs to play. Shadow priest will get way way stronger with later talents. By level 40 they should be pretty good!
Dunno about dps/heals, but as a tankadin (full prot tree) this whole thing is almost shambolic. Sure, we have some necessary tools to actually be able to get threat, but boy oh boy are we quick to lose it. Like, you see a warrior tank or a shaman tank and mobs simply stay glued on them. I don't know what they will do about the runes in lvl 40 but something akin to "if you have holy shield on, all threat is +100%" rune is the only viable option to keep tankadins be able to get a spot in the raids.
I suspect most paladins will get conscreation from holy and then dump all the rest into prot. Holy shield really isnt' necessary with aegis and avengers shield available and the modifier to righteous fury massively boosts consecration threat.
I think the further we get into SoD the more obvious it will be that balance simply cannot happen because of PvP. If they refuse to have nerfs that only apply when fighting other players warriors will continue to be further and further above the rest. If you give anything fun or strong to ranged classes, it ruins pvp.
The problem with the balancing so far is that they're only adjusting runes. It isn't enough dials to keep things reasonable in PvP and PvE at the same time. Look at starsurge, it basically broke them in PvP and it helped in PvE but they're still not good. Are they supposed to make them even better also buffing sunfire because of their PvE struggle? As its going right now, any spec that sucks in OG classic necessitates a literally broken rune to bring them up.
Raids aren't everything. The moment I'm done raiding I go in the open world just to get 3 shotted by a starsurger or a hunter pet with 0 counterplay. The game isn't fun outside raiding. Nerf these broken specs.
1.Mage is 2nd best healer every raid wants 1 priest 1 mage because mage does alot of dps compared to other healers thats fact 2. Mage is top on 3 of the raid bosses. 3. Mage is top dps on trash by ALOT i was pulling almost 20k dps on trash which speeds up the alrdy fast raid to a 30 minute raid. mage is top dungeon dps and dungeon farmer. and btw next phase is going to be 5 mages farming monastery almost exclusively btw
if by phase 3 if the meta still the same there is honestly a giant red flag of failure. I don't agree with the changes to hunter and they should stayed on top instead of warriors and rogues to showcase they are cool with those 2 classes not always dominating the meters. I don't main a hunter but I would like to see different class other then warrior, rogues at the top
Yes warriors are top dps after u got full bis, and no reason to play anymore. Hunters in green gear are top 3 dps right out of the bat. Warr in green gear is bellow healer in dps
And btw, I ve beaten lvl 25 warriors with raid gear with my hunter lvl 17 with grey gear on me by simply kiting at 40 yards. Its not even questionable how op hunters and their pets are compared to warriros which lose everything: wsg no invites except u are full bis, world pvp u are crap, as a tank shaman is far better, as dps only after u get good gear u start doing some damage.
Think warriors are best now, wait till world buffs are a thing. Without some kind of massive change to class basics, the lvl 60 raid comp will be exactly what it was in classic vanilla.
As someone who plays Shadow in SOD, and then Frost Mage back in 2005, both classes will be up to snuff at 40+. Shadow starts getting + shadow dmg and shadow form.
any idea why the logs do not show Beast Master for hunters? I would love to know how much of the damage is really coming from the pet compared to the player
They stated that every class would feel more OP, not every specc. if all speccs are OP for every situation, they have done. a poor job. Basing off of raid logs to determine the level of OP is not very effective. frost mage are doing very well in duels for example, and not in raid. you have the ability to respecc to fire, and deal alot more. also the reason why mages arent doing so well is because the lack of ignite damage and imp scorch atm. the term OP is quite broad. as an example, most people in SoD is saying that warrior is bad. that is because they suck in pvp right now, and yet they are winning the dps charts in raid. Most people say that druids are way too OP, and yet they arent top 3 in raids. so people perception of OP vs raid logs is skewed. the current state of SoD is better than most would ever imagine and since its only 25 i think. we should take a step back and let them do their thing and let us discover more buffs and nerfs in the coming months
Because the game is more than what is just measured on Warcraftlogs. Shadow priest sucks in pve but are pvp monsters, same with balance druids; if you just buff their damage then they'll continue to be crazy strong. The better way to balance this would be introducing more runes that fit pve scenarios for those specs than pvp scenarios rather than just upping the damage. Numbers on Warcraftlogs aren't everything. The healing numbers would make you think they are all balanced but they really aren't. There is no mail healing gear for paladins so it leaves holy paladins like paper in pvp, not to mention the runes for them either feeling janky as fuck (Horn of Lorederon) or making you cringe every time you have to press it (Beacon of Light costing more mana than a max rank holy light bomb heal). I've heard similar things about other non-priest healers but I'm not sure. While I think many of these problems will be alleviated with time and better gear in next phases the point still stands that Warcraftlogs is an incomplete data set when it comes to having a holistic understanding of where the balance is at; it's a single data point and should be treated as such.
warriors and rogues do crazy damage in raids because of feral druids. the mangle debuff plus windfury is insane. And we are taling about a lvl 25 meta. none of the classes are complete yet. If they fuck around too much now, might cause problems down the road, no?
Caring in phase 1 is a bit silly because phase 1 was the first chance they've had, and also, probably, the phase where they've added the most stuff. More stuff added (new gear and runes) means more variables, and first phase means they have had very little time to mold and shape the DPS meters. I'd save the worrying until the end of phase 2. Let's wait until more kits are fleshed out, and we can see how they scale gear, and give them straight-up just more time.
I think Spriest and Shamen are in the most need of buffs. Yeah frost mage sucks… Play one of the other two DPS specs. On a priest if you want to do anything other than heal, to bad. Shamen are tanks and that’s it now. SoD is about adding new playstyles to the game and to completely fail to do that on only two classes feels bad. And how TF has Warrior not been nerfed lol, it’s nuts.
the whole attitude of balance and nothing matters since we arent at 60 is extremely stupid. Like you said are we supposed to just deal with this until fall for them to finally attempt to balance it out? we are likely just going to have to deal with spell ranks until then since they are just not even trying. If they are just going to ignore casters then abandon the no nerfing philosophy and just nerf warriors and rogues. hunters were on top and they nerfed them and now the damage chart essentially looks identical to vanilla with warriors and rogues being top of everything. Season of discovering the exact same meta as vanilla
What you are missing is that a class can bring insane utility. Feral druids brings the most damage because of Mark, Wild Strikes and Mangle. We are more or less talking about single target fights here. Rogues and Warriors va mechanical mobs in Gnomeregan will be a huge nerf for that phase atleast.
I think that until we reach later stages of the experiment we should focus our critique on what they *are* touching rather than what they aren't. They very likely identified the six or so specs they wanted to prop up this phase. Ret Paladin, fire lock/mage, feral, and arcane mage are all in a very good spot (I was surprised about your remark about buffing mage healing when their DPS more than covers their gap in HPS). Hunter is the class in scope that they haven't gotten to a healthy place and we're likely to see more and more updates now so that they won't have to be touched for the rest of SoD (solve pet scaling now and it's fine forever in theory). Remember, while they cannot possibly focus on all 20+ specs at once, they still had to give each class 12 runes. I am willing to believe from the developer perspective, DPS warrior, rogue, frost mage, and shadow warlock are all in the same group. IE specs that did not need any help in #nochanges classic. Each of these will get their development time soon enough. In the case of warriors, the fury mechanic exists in such a way that beginning of phase warriors and BIS warriors are effectively different classes completely so I imagine the team will wait to nerf them if necessary at lvl 60. Enhancement shamans are already said to be getting 2H support next phase, and elemental/balance/spriest all share schools of magic that are actually playable now so more effort needs to be put into making shadow/arcane support that doesn't just get dwarfed by lock/mage and we *don't even have balance and shadow forms yet*. I don't know much about horde but hopefully they can find a way to make nature damage support so balance/shaman can use that without just being worse mages. Either way, I'd much rather them focus forward than making a perfect phase 1 that takes longer. Thanks for the content and stay safe!
The "buff" to Ret made Seal of Martyrdom restore 0-1 mana instead of 0-1 mana. It did literally nothing. The difference between 10% and 20% of 10% of 30% of weapon damage is meaningless.
well Baron would be immune to all frost spells, gimping frost mages. Naga also have racial frost resistance right? I think if this were a different raid that wasnt water focused they would perform better?
YEa, the class balancing has been pretty sad... it's not a huge deal since lvl 25 takes about 15 hrs casually lvling to make an alt, but for people with attachments to their main class class it feels bad if that class is just trash compared to rogue/warrior dps. Would definitely like to see more balancing in the remainder of p1 and beyond... trying to be understanding giving them a break because of holidays but yea 3-4 class balancing patches in this time frame with this magnitude of difference in gameplay is pretty bad.
I agree they should reduce the DPS gap. Trying to find a raid with underperforming dps is hard. Next phase is comming soon, so that might change some things. Balance druids will get Moonkin form to at least give raid buff, which might make them more attractive to invite. If they are buffing specs, they should do it early in the next phase.
I think why it looks like this is because the melees access to windfury from ferals alongside strong raidweapons and not relying on spell/ability ranks as much as the casters. Many casters get their new rank on their most used abilities at around 28. Nontheless once u have FULL BIS as a caster even they do decent dps. My wrath on boomy right now does about 160 per cast (does around 70 without any spellpower though). I think blizzard are just too scared to buff too much due to the powercreep that comes with gear, even if it takes a LONG ASS TIME to get there, sadly. Melees are nowhere close being this bad early on.
He kept mentioning specs that are underperforming but can easily switch to a higher performing spec. Look at shamans though. Both dps specs suck and there is no point in being a resto shaman. People either want the high healing priest, high healing Druid who does some damage with wrath, or healer mage who can keep a party alive and do tons of damage at the same time. There is no point in bringing a shaman to a raid especially now that feral druids took the only utility they had.
Slight balancing at lvl 25 is reasonable, but the amount of balancing being done is just kind of silly. It’s level 25. Start to bring in real balancing at 40. Feels pretty ignorant at this point as most classes don’t have their toolkits like they do at 40.
I see frost mage as a more defensive playstyle meant for i.e PvP so if you play more defensive you should not have the same output as a firemage that is pure offensive play. Warriors are OP but is pure offensive play, they got nothing defensive at this point. Its kind of like saying Survival Hunters should get buffed because their DPS is so bad, Defensive warriors should get buffed because their DPS is bad, Holy priests should get buffed because their DPS is bad.. The ones in the top are the pure DPS specs for each class as I see it, and the lower ranks are defensive specs for each class and should not be compared.
Realistically I think the bottom 1/3-1/2 specs would be 25-50% higher on these charts IF the best players chose to play as those specs. Most players on WCL are going to play the meta specs, exacerbating the gap. Obviously this doesn't fully address the dicrepency, but it would be a more reasonable difference if all were accurately represented. In non-sweaty raids, I've seen many of these lower specs perform quite well compared to the higher specs.
I believe the new raids should stay 10 man. I see where people are coming from with wanting the numbers bumped up but the problem comes when you realize that the new raids will not be current content forever like level 60 raids are, in the long term when the level cap is raised up again and people are leveling alts noone will put in the effort to make a 20 man gnomergan raid group when you could just grind another dungeon that's easier to form to level up. Having it be 10 man helps these raids not just be left as dead content.
*I DO CARE* 😀 So give Shadow Priests their much needed mana regen. VT, fiend pet, something, anything. Giving them a small dmg increase isn't doing Jack! Just makes them from F-tier to E-tier. SP's mana issue has been known since Vanilla launch as Vanilla/Classic content goes.
Melee is killing it with wild strikes. Wait until shamans are dropping spell power totems and boomkins have a spell party buff. I think the numbers between melee and spell casters will be much tighter in p2 and beyond.
Not even acknowledging the fact that thr mage will be keeping up with the heals while being mid to upper end of dps on most pulls. And the fact the raid is already a joke
Kind of expected when casters need +spelldmg gear to pump, which Blizz gave them hardly any of this phase, vs warriors rogues and hunters only having to upgrade their weapons which makes a huge difference to those classes, and being given very good blue/epic ones.
my biggest problem with bigger raids is back in classic one lockout we were missing half the raid and we couldnt get any pugs to join so we said f it and ran it as 20.... it was easier and faster than our 40 man raids.
I think all but 2 of the hunter nerfs(scorpid and explo shot) were made to rebalance pvp and has had big impacts on pve. I believe they should’ve made the BM rune not usable against pvp targets and it would’ve been a better decision than the perpetual cycle we see now. I play a mage now and I’m loving it. I can do solid dps and top meters by far on the turtle boss. Pulling entire dungeons is so ridiculous it feels like cheating.
I disagree with some runes not being able to use against pvp target, that would open a complete other pit and bring a long rat’s tale of problems. But as you say: Some classes have other benefits, for example against certain bosses. Or they bring buffs. Or CC. Just looking at numbers never tells you the whole story of a game. It doesn’t tell you if anyone enjoyed the game or had fun. It just tells you that they saw larger numbers on the screen.
A funny thing to add is if you add tank damage to that, prot warriors are out dpsing ret pallies. Buffing casters is more of a problem with spell rank at lvl 25, if frost bolt was a lvl 24 skill instead of 20 you'd see frost mages much higher up. I think at lvl 40 it will be a bit more clearer what kind of buffs they need to do, I'd hate if they buffed mage a lot now and they ended up being broken at lvl 40 one shotting people in pvp and being top dmg, and then blizz takes forever to bring them back down. Where feral druid is now I'd imagine would be the goal to bring all the dps up to.
@@alecandro1958 Tanking warriors never go full prot in talents, all the warriors are getting deep wounds this lvl. Doesn't change the fact that they are in defensive stance using devastate. Only fight that is mixed with is the last boss, since people are 2 hand then using retaliation.
I think balancing a "whacky" seasonal event aroung the top speedrunning guilds or the top 10% of parses is incredibly useless. Most people care less about playing or being a frost mage when forming groups, they care about not getting too many other clothies into the group. You also need to consider that pvp is a much bigger focus in classic than it is in retail. Some of the worst classes in terms of dps are the best ones in pvp.
« ret Paladins were buffed » well not really, the thing that was buffed is the mana regen of the seal of martyrdom but the thing is that unfortunatly it’s a dead rune at the moment and no one is using it outside of leveling because it uses the same slot as divine storm who is really strong in aoe but also for single target. A good way to bring that rune back would be to repair the seal to let it twist with the seal of autority, because actually you can twist it with every seal except that one. With this addition that will buff ret pallys in single target situation and bring back the tbc gameplay of ret, so people would be able to choose between this or the wotlk gameplay (the actual one) 🙂
It's nice they are doing some touching up but I do think that ultimately, the level 25 bracket won't matter in the long run. Much like what everyone else is saying, level 40 is a much stronger indicator on which classes/specs need the most help. Depending on how they do runes, maybe none of it really matters until 60 because it really depends on how powerful runes end up becoming since they are the reason for why some specs are doing so much better than others.
@staysafetv I think you should have checked logs from a few weeks (or months) ago too. That's the only way to confirm if the buffs and nerfs hav had any effect. Current logs tells you the situation... but if 3 weeks ago hunters were doing double.the dps than warriors then nerfs are going on the goos direction. But if theu were still 3rd with nearly 20% difference from rogues and warriors... then nerfs are doing nothing... even if 3rd place hunter ended closer to 4th place druid
I think devs didn't really comprehend how having bis weapons is much better for physical classes than casters. They need to buff base spell damage for casters at their current max rank.
Giving warriors the WOTLK deep wounds was a stupid decision. We know already that they scale way better than every other class with gear and world buffs, now with that change to deep wounds it's going to amplify the value of crit even more. Warriors have the ability through runes to have 50% dmg boost at all times, they didn't need more damage boosts, what they needed was some fun utility. In pvp P2 shadow priests (especially UD) are going to eat absolutely everyone and it's not even going to be close. Take the dominance of shadow priests and then give them new DoT 3 times as efficient as SWP, the ability to DoT 3 people per cast and SWD as finisher/cc break. That being said they could easily add a run that makes Spirit tap proc whenever a target dies with SWP up or when SWP expires, that way Shadow priests are required to wear spirit heavy gear still in order to find a sweet spot between damage vs regen.
i think its important to mention that they did a pretty damn good job with level 25 gaming. its not perfect - but its the first time they do something like this, so p1 is kind of like a real-time testing phase. it might also be hard to balance classes at level 25, with such limited talents/spells and gear that cant be too OP. Hopefully p2 is when things start to get more "serious". i think we all enjoy the casual aspect, but level 40 is a big jump from level 25. anyways, good video. Lets hope for a more balanced p2. and as an ehancement shaman, i dont even feel like a low teir damage -- i absolutely pump in pvp and i tanking as an ehance dw dps feels like fury prot, and is fun enough that i dont care to be low teir on charts (:
Next phase should be a big boost for a lot of those lower end dps specs, since a lot of key talents they are missing in this bracket are going to be available at 40, like Shadowform for Priests, Moonkin form for Druids, shatter for frost mages (and hopefully no frost immune bosses). They'll likely still be behind, but the gap should get smaller
Blizzard does not test/play their own game. There is no way they have good internal testing to end up with statistics that are even remotely this lopsided. They could literally hire the people who write all these sims, tweak each class until they're equal prior to release and have all the classes / specs being remotely close. They need to be testing PvP, Dungeons, Solo content, and Raid Performance. Each class needs some designated designers/testers who LIVE that class in game to advocate for changes... and they need to stop letting classes go neglected for entire phases of the game.
On the raid size topic, I would have to say: make 2 versions, one 10 man, and one 25 man, that or give us more raids per tier (phase) but always have the option for 10 mans. Many of us have a guild of IRL buddies, and for some of us 40 or even 25 active players is something we just do not have. Especially that can raid at any given date. So I would say, give us more options, rather than forcing us to join guilds with randoms, or go into an uneasy merge akin to arranged marriage between two souls that have nothing in common, and are not attracted, or even like each other 😂
it's the level is useless. it'll be 60 meta at some point and then it's also just that. - elemental/enhance are generally screwed by their early talents and spells, they might come alive more on their own - shadowpriest needs mana issues adressed - frost mage is akin to a pvp spec and maybe should not be competitive in a raid environment, just as we are not looking at rogue as combat/assassination/subtlety, i would be pretty sure the pure subtlety rogues are performing at a low level right now - hunter needs a rework in the sense that it needs to move away from being an AI bot for 50% of your damage PASSIVELY. hoping on some melee hunter support in the next phase, considering phase 1 toolkits it's pretty alright with windfury provided. I think to a degree it also feels bad to get nerfed because they completely overtuned runes to compensate for lack of skills avaible at 25 to make the same rune feel useless in the next phase.
who cares about speedruns !!??? 99,999999% of the people dont care about speedruns. you cant balance a game completely around speedrunners... take a full raid of "underperforming" classes and/or specs and you can clear the raid content easily!
Lvl 40 is when many bottom performers get some good talents that buff their damage and will probably change something. However the rankings are going to stay the same regardless, because warriors are op. One thing that strikes me is that from all the rounds of balance, not a single time they have nerfed warrior runes.
honestly they can start somewhat balancing at 40, 50 and 60 is where they really need to fine tune things. I do believe that certain roles should be better at certain things and shouldn't be homogenized like retail is, and to a lesser extent Wrath. If they could figure that out it would instill a bit of faith with me, I wouldn't mind dealing the dps priest dmg if i was buffing or ccing etc. It's all about the give and take and blizzard doesn't understand RPGs anymore
People are missing too many talents that increase damage at this level for it to be worth buffing more than they already have. People will have most of their kit unlocked at 40 though so balance should be much tighter there.
I would expect Frost Mages to be weak in BFD, as they are water/cold-aspected, in the same way that Fire Mages are much weaker in Molten Core. Still sucks for them though.
What you said about being an ele and not getting into pugs or even guild runs is completely true. I am banking on ele being very good in next phases. I think to your question: Are we not supposed to care until 60? I expect different specs will have highs and lows throughout the phases. The thing that annoys me is I know if ele got as far ahead as other specs as warrior and rogue are right now, it would immediately get nerfed. People would cry out because they are a bunch of piss and shit bars and then because alli would throw a fit.
Yeah ele shamans lack -1 sec cast time on lightning bolt from talents which is huge and also their next lightning bolt spell rank is at 26 so definitely going to 40 is gonna help them hugely.
@zhadez10 yes and the bonus 100% to crit will be a major benefit to lava burst. Not to mention cleave potential going up a ton with chain and the fire totems getting way stronger
I expect Mages to get better even just in the next phase. Both frost and fire will get better, Arcane will still be a mana hog. But, between better gear and more talent points Mages will rise a bit even with just the current runes we have. Same with Shamans, Spriest, Boomy, and maybe other Lock specs. It seems Blizz isn't too concerned about buffing classes that were Meta in Classic at level 60. Meme specs are becoming viable now.
The 90th percentile isn’t an accurate measurement. As players and raid teams get better, the less likely they are to bring lower dps specs. This DPS spread may be more exaggerated than we think. Warriors and Rogues will be taken over a frost mage even if the frost mage is only 5% worse, because that’s still 5%. So these other classes aren’t getting fair representation in good raid teams, which means they don’t have a chance to benefit from faster kill time dps increases. I think a better measurement would be 70th percentile or so, because in all honesty, who cares about speed runners. Speed runners and 1%’ers don’t play classes they enjoy anyway, they play classes that are the best, even if that means by a margin of only 1% or so. All of this is to say that I think differences in dps are far less exaggerated than what this chart portrays.
Blizzard not being able to equalize DPS even when we’re providing them the data to easily figure out the % needed is just pure lack of commitment. Any of us could do it in a day.
yes. i am positive they dont play the game, besides warrior and rogues. they have no idea how the hunter works. 6 nerfs in 6 weeks. and it plays like vanilla now. no discoveries at all, dull asf. they could simply make a panel of top players form each class, and have them on a ptr testing balance on dummies and raidbosses. it would be tuned in a day. SoD is "What did i loose today" for hunters.
I think level 40 would be more interesting to look at class balance in. Too many classes are kind of waiting for those big ticket talents, and it’d be a better indicator of what’s to come
This is definitely big for shadow and boomkin, like shadow form, vamp embrace, and 5 points into shadoweaving all come next phase which will be HUGE
@@IchibanDan yeah, I think the 40 talents being out and seeing how the meta develops and class balance at the 40?’ark would give them better insight on how to move forward with any buffs and nerfs. I don’t think warriors and rogues are going down hill at all, but I do believe more classes will be closer in line with one another behind them, as opposed to having such a large disparity between top and bottom specs/classes.
TLDR it’s just kind of a stretch to look at class balance on this phase. Sure we are in “end game” content right now for SOD, but the end game is effectively designed around class design that under developed by nature. Bit of a nothing burger to worry on
Edit: just adding to this, things that come to mind besides the shadow priest one mentioned, I do think shaman is going to kind of take off pretty well. Storm strike and elemental mastery with the abilities given already will be nuts. With any runes that are from later expansions potentially in the pipeline, like maelstorm procs, I think they are going to be lowkey a kind of sleeper pick. But we’ll have to see where they go with them. Definitely a hidden potential class depending on what the class designers go with
cool warrior will shit on shadow priest in pvp and pve move along@@IchibanDan
@@zabban spriests are good in pvp. Their problem is that people just want them to heal and not play spriest.
well, ill answer that unknown now. warriors will do around 750 dps. more if the new raidgear is better than prebis/bfd gear. its been simmed. no one else will b close to that.
It's very hard to buff shadowpriest/frost mage because these classes will absolutely destroy you in pvp with buffs. It's hard to nerf warriors because they already suck in pvp. It's easier for them to justify Hunter nerfs because they're op in pvp and pve
then do like in retail... have different buffs for both.. and in pvp things like mind flay and mind blast can be buffed since are casts and you can counter them with a CC
Yeah, they buffed warlocks making them a menace in pvp.
Even if kill them you will die shortly after from the dots
@@theyondak6090I agree they should be doing more, but one reason they can’t just do it like retail is because the Classic client does not have that infrastructure, it’s not in the code to tune spells differently in pve vs pvp. Additionally, most of the spells in SOD are the same as Classic Era, so unless they dupe all the spells and all their ranks then nerfing anything other than a SOD-specific rune would also result in changes to Classic Era and Hardcore servers.
Exactly what I was going to say.
I also think we shouldnt talk too much about balance at 25. Level 40 is a much more reasonable time to consider balance a bit.
How much more do you need to see to prove they have fully given up on pvp balance?
Don't worry Warlocks, our time to shine is soon. Keep the faith Gentlemen.
warlock can already beat almost every class in the game including priests if you’re half decent?
@@koronomoa3582 he was totally not talking about pvp obviously
You're trolling right? Warlock is nowhere near@@koronomoa3582 Warriors, Rogues and Hunters, while still being behind Ferals. Yeah we can top meters but only if your raid of those classes aren't playing correctly. We don't hold a candle to those other melee.
@@koronomoa3582as a priest good warlocks are so tough
People said that all throughout Classic and the time of warlocks never came...
One thing to note is that Frost mages only have access to Frostbolt Rank 4 (requires level 20, 78-87 damage, 2.6 second cast), and the next rank is obtained at level 26 (132-144 damage, 3 second cast).
That's why the level 25 limit was a bad idea, they should put it at 26 that is when classes get another tier of skills
Make spells work like runes; have spell power and mana cost scale with level. Would make “off meta” caster dps specs more viable
@@kylez9094that’s not classic 😝
"Warrior does the highest damage in the game"
"Okay, give them a lot of runes that increase their damage by a flat % of that already high damage."
"Alright, I guess..? Next up, shadow priest. They don't scale well with stats, have lower damage and run out of mana quickly"
"Just give them a new dot and make them choose between that and their other spells doing damage."
"But that doesn't address the core issues. What about ma..."
"Fuck off, I'm busy changing deep wounds so warriors scale better with crit!"
true
@@Tremorboi-rb7ey What if you're alliance?
@@CerberusMalt alliance sucks. Reroll an account and go horde like you should have in the first place
haha yeah said it day 1. Decided not to care about cool warrior runes....so instead they decided to throw away quick % dmg runes without engagin their brain. The Meta warrior build which dominates the game will get a totally free 30% dmg increase in 2 runes that will scale with deathwish/trinket/reck/racial synch use in kill phase. Moronic decision.
staring at warcraft logs to tell you about overall game balance is a good way to tell the world you aren't too bright
How else would you recommend people discern class balance, oh genius one?
I dunno, nuance and multiple variables instead of using one variable (parse) to give you the answer? pumping damage on an immovable target dummy (raid bosses) with a stacked raid comp to boost you while also using all the buffs doesnt mean a class is overpowered. try to think of all aspects of the game instead of just one little sliver. Nerf a class for the sake of parses alone and youll cause problems in other aspects of the game like PvP@@StaysafeTV
the thing is all of that is irrelevent in terms of "handicapping" ur raid
this ends in a few weeks and you can clear the content in greens with any comp
people are overreacting to nothing and should be focusing on "how does this effect the future phase"
If they cant buff casters then its time to nerf the warriors and rogues like they did hunters... lol
easy fix indeed
it really cant be that hard to just buff the main dmg spell of each of the
Just nerf saber slash and warrior 25% dmg rune should put them more in line...
I would expect more buffs to come in the future... I am fairly certain since we are only lvl 25 bracket they want to see how things shape out when we get more talents, runes and gear. I think the idea of having AQ20 style spell rank books for caster dps to drop in BFD would be the best way to bring the lower classes inline with melee.
What is hit cap for melle vs casters, might have something to do with it.
I do care that they're nerfing hunter dps while leaving war and rogue alone, it implies that their philosophy means hunters will never be allowed to be top dps and that it's fine if it's a warrior or rogue.
This. Exactly this.
yup
i mean it's still classic we dont really need a version of classic where casters are better, melee gotta run away and run back to their target a lot of the time. I think melee being the best dps makes a ton of sense.
@@dangoslin imma guss yr class then.
I've mained rogue AND mage. Every class is powerful and the damage right now literally doesn't matter we are lvl 25. I've 8 manned all of BFD the content is so easy you don't even need all 10 raid slots. Caster's are strong in their own way and not every class can be TOP dps and that's just how WoW works (Rock , Paper , Scissors). IF they overbalance the game's pointless and boring like retail where the world is scaled to everyone's level and progression doesn't exist. We don't need balance.@@sebastianbergstl4423
The only way to balance these classes is to make it rock paper scissors
Every class should have a counter to it
Otherwise it will be always be a neverending battle of nerfing and buffing
Constant changes, and balance makes it more Reatail than Classic. Won't be long, and every blue wool sheep will be playing the same class, and calling the same abilities, and spells different names...
It's almost like spell power makes casters do more dps while regular gear continues to benefit standard mele classes. They need to add spellpower gear to quest so it brings the bottom up
Make casters gain spell power from int (or stam for locks) always seemed bs that melee gain dps from pure stats but range don’t
Bruh later gear does this. People just to impatient to wait for next phases.
easy fix would be:
- move spell ranks to 40, 50 and 60 that were just out of reach before
- dot Crits for affli and shadow
- more regen runes
This wouldn't solve all isues, but most
It doesnt need to be too balanced. Some classes shine at different things thats the way classic is. If you play a mage rite now yeah you are not doing top dps in raid but you can pull entire dungeons at level 25 while healing to full. Warriors pump in raid but suck in open world gold farming for example. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses.
That image at Blizzcon wasnt refering to Raid DPS.
I don't think it's that big of a deal, it's not optimal as it is but classes still has their uses in raids or outdoors. But I agree the bottom performing classes needs a little boost.
Don’t mages get to dps in order to heal? If they were tops in dps and healing, would be insane overall raid benefit.
Melee brain can only handle so much.
Their healing from DPS only occurs after one of two abilities are used and only for a set duration. Fire mages and Frost mages contribute 0 healing unless the rune into it and give up damage runes
What does class balance means to you, Staysafe ?
Can’t speak for them but most consensus is all within 10%.
@@cobaltmalt So arcane mages should be within 10% in damage while also healing? Are we so deep in the sauce that we don't care at all what else the class brings to bear?
@@typokopretty sure mage cant be top dps with having healing runes equipped..
@@DoffyDogg Most likely true, but I had 2 mages last night in BDF and the healer did do the same amount of damage as the dps mage. To me it seems like mages fulfill a good role in the BDF where you pretty much only need 1.5 healers for most people.
I don't fancy the idea of buffing/nerfing back and forward between phases. Specially frost mage - you have two other dps specs to play.
Shadow priest will get way way stronger with later talents. By level 40 they should be pretty good!
Dunno about dps/heals, but as a tankadin (full prot tree) this whole thing is almost shambolic. Sure, we have some necessary tools to actually be able to get threat, but boy oh boy are we quick to lose it. Like, you see a warrior tank or a shaman tank and mobs simply stay glued on them. I don't know what they will do about the runes in lvl 40 but something akin to "if you have holy shield on, all threat is +100%" rune is the only viable option to keep tankadins be able to get a spot in the raids.
I suspect most paladins will get conscreation from holy and then dump all the rest into prot. Holy shield really isnt' necessary with aegis and avengers shield available and the modifier to righteous fury massively boosts consecration threat.
@@theperfectbeing Tried the concecration approach and it was simply horrendous. I got much better threat generation with full prot and divine storm.
I think the further we get into SoD the more obvious it will be that balance simply cannot happen because of PvP. If they refuse to have nerfs that only apply when fighting other players warriors will continue to be further and further above the rest. If you give anything fun or strong to ranged classes, it ruins pvp.
The problem with the balancing so far is that they're only adjusting runes. It isn't enough dials to keep things reasonable in PvP and PvE at the same time.
Look at starsurge, it basically broke them in PvP and it helped in PvE but they're still not good. Are they supposed to make them even better also buffing sunfire because of their PvE struggle? As its going right now, any spec that sucks in OG classic necessitates a literally broken rune to bring them up.
If they give starsurge a 1.5 second cast time would that help balance between pve and pvp?
Raids aren't everything. The moment I'm done raiding I go in the open world just to get 3 shotted by a starsurger or a hunter pet with 0 counterplay.
The game isn't fun outside raiding. Nerf these broken specs.
Just make starsurge do 500% more damage. So it will match warriors in pve and 1 shot everyone in pvp
Im a balance druid and I approve this message because fvck you :D
Haha you got it right, the problem is comparing PVE damage output with PVP.
I am sure if they keep nerfing hunters, it will fix everything.
1.Mage is 2nd best healer every raid wants 1 priest 1 mage because mage does alot of dps compared to other healers thats fact 2. Mage is top on 3 of the raid bosses. 3. Mage is top dps on trash by ALOT i was pulling almost 20k dps on trash which speeds up the alrdy fast raid to a 30 minute raid. mage is top dungeon dps and dungeon farmer. and btw next phase is going to be 5 mages farming monastery almost exclusively btw
if by phase 3 if the meta still the same there is honestly a giant red flag of failure. I don't agree with the changes to hunter and they should stayed on top instead of warriors and rogues to showcase they are cool with those 2 classes not always dominating the meters. I don't main a hunter but I would like to see different class other then warrior, rogues at the top
Agreed. I believe 5/6 hunter nerfs so far have been all pvp related when they simply could’ve made the BM rune not work in pvp.
Yes warriors are top dps after u got full bis, and no reason to play anymore. Hunters in green gear are top 3 dps right out of the bat. Warr in green gear is bellow healer in dps
And btw, I ve beaten lvl 25 warriors with raid gear with my hunter lvl 17 with grey gear on me by simply kiting at 40 yards. Its not even questionable how op hunters and their pets are compared to warriros which lose everything: wsg no invites except u are full bis, world pvp u are crap, as a tank shaman is far better, as dps only after u get good gear u start doing some damage.
@@simionpaul3935 who cares what happens in levellngear? u weigh parsing like that? wth man.
@@simionpaul3935 ure prob is u cant counter kiting? thats hillarious.
I main a hunter and getting nerfd every f@$ing time i log in is f@$ing lit.
Think warriors are best now, wait till world buffs are a thing. Without some kind of massive change to class basics, the lvl 60 raid comp will be exactly what it was in classic vanilla.
yes, it absolutely will. warrior scales better than any other class and this meta accellerates that.
Poor enhancement shaman dual wield dps so much for making everyone op and warriors less op.
Last time I checked a Rogue or Warrior cant solo an elite my Pet can
As someone who plays Shadow in SOD, and then Frost Mage back in 2005, both classes will be up to snuff at 40+. Shadow starts getting + shadow dmg and shadow form.
any idea why the logs do not show Beast Master for hunters? I would love to know how much of the damage is really coming from the pet compared to the player
50-55% on a BM. prenerf. (the sixth one that is)
Could it be a function of warriors getting funneled gear as the only mail user? At least on horde side
They stated that every class would feel more OP, not every specc. if all speccs are OP for every situation, they have done. a poor job. Basing off of raid logs to determine the level of OP is not very effective. frost mage are doing very well in duels for example, and not in raid. you have the ability to respecc to fire, and deal alot more. also the reason why mages arent doing so well is because the lack of ignite damage and imp scorch atm. the term OP is quite broad. as an example, most people in SoD is saying that warrior is bad. that is because they suck in pvp right now, and yet they are winning the dps charts in raid. Most people say that druids are way too OP, and yet they arent top 3 in raids. so people perception of OP vs raid logs is skewed. the current state of SoD is better than most would ever imagine and since its only 25 i think. we should take a step back and let them do their thing and let us discover more buffs and nerfs in the coming months
Because the game is more than what is just measured on Warcraftlogs. Shadow priest sucks in pve but are pvp monsters, same with balance druids; if you just buff their damage then they'll continue to be crazy strong.
The better way to balance this would be introducing more runes that fit pve scenarios for those specs than pvp scenarios rather than just upping the damage.
Numbers on Warcraftlogs aren't everything. The healing numbers would make you think they are all balanced but they really aren't. There is no mail healing gear for paladins so it leaves holy paladins like paper in pvp, not to mention the runes for them either feeling janky as fuck (Horn of Lorederon) or making you cringe every time you have to press it (Beacon of Light costing more mana than a max rank holy light bomb heal). I've heard similar things about other non-priest healers but I'm not sure.
While I think many of these problems will be alleviated with time and better gear in next phases the point still stands that Warcraftlogs is an incomplete data set when it comes to having a holistic understanding of where the balance is at; it's a single data point and should be treated as such.
warriors and rogues do crazy damage in raids because of feral druids. the mangle debuff plus windfury is insane. And we are taling about a lvl 25 meta. none of the classes are complete yet. If they fuck around too much now, might cause problems down the road, no?
Caring in phase 1 is a bit silly because phase 1 was the first chance they've had, and also, probably, the phase where they've added the most stuff.
More stuff added (new gear and runes) means more variables, and first phase means they have had very little time to mold and shape the DPS meters.
I'd save the worrying until the end of phase 2. Let's wait until more kits are fleshed out, and we can see how they scale gear, and give them straight-up just more time.
I think Spriest and Shamen are in the most need of buffs. Yeah frost mage sucks… Play one of the other two DPS specs. On a priest if you want to do anything other than heal, to bad. Shamen are tanks and that’s it now. SoD is about adding new playstyles to the game and to completely fail to do that on only two classes feels bad.
And how TF has Warrior not been nerfed lol, it’s nuts.
the whole attitude of balance and nothing matters since we arent at 60 is extremely stupid. Like you said are we supposed to just deal with this until fall for them to finally attempt to balance it out? we are likely just going to have to deal with spell ranks until then since they are just not even trying. If they are just going to ignore casters then abandon the no nerfing philosophy and just nerf warriors and rogues. hunters were on top and they nerfed them and now the damage chart essentially looks identical to vanilla with warriors and rogues being top of everything. Season of discovering the exact same meta as vanilla
yep. but alas, the mechanics cant be simmed, and the current evolution is warrior, and some randoms. thats how it scales now.
What you are missing is that a class can bring insane utility. Feral druids brings the most damage because of Mark, Wild Strikes and Mangle.
We are more or less talking about single target fights here.
Rogues and Warriors va mechanical mobs in Gnomeregan will be a huge nerf for that phase atleast.
Compare it to classic mc logs.. I think it alot closer now
left alone like this, warriors will do 3500 dps at 60. so no.
I think that until we reach later stages of the experiment we should focus our critique on what they *are* touching rather than what they aren't. They very likely identified the six or so specs they wanted to prop up this phase. Ret Paladin, fire lock/mage, feral, and arcane mage are all in a very good spot (I was surprised about your remark about buffing mage healing when their DPS more than covers their gap in HPS). Hunter is the class in scope that they haven't gotten to a healthy place and we're likely to see more and more updates now so that they won't have to be touched for the rest of SoD (solve pet scaling now and it's fine forever in theory).
Remember, while they cannot possibly focus on all 20+ specs at once, they still had to give each class 12 runes. I am willing to believe from the developer perspective, DPS warrior, rogue, frost mage, and shadow warlock are all in the same group. IE specs that did not need any help in #nochanges classic. Each of these will get their development time soon enough. In the case of warriors, the fury mechanic exists in such a way that beginning of phase warriors and BIS warriors are effectively different classes completely so I imagine the team will wait to nerf them if necessary at lvl 60.
Enhancement shamans are already said to be getting 2H support next phase, and elemental/balance/spriest all share schools of magic that are actually playable now so more effort needs to be put into making shadow/arcane support that doesn't just get dwarfed by lock/mage and we *don't even have balance and shadow forms yet*. I don't know much about horde but hopefully they can find a way to make nature damage support so balance/shaman can use that without just being worse mages.
Either way, I'd much rather them focus forward than making a perfect phase 1 that takes longer. Thanks for the content and stay safe!
The "buff" to Ret made Seal of Martyrdom restore 0-1 mana instead of 0-1 mana. It did literally nothing. The difference between 10% and 20% of 10% of 30% of weapon damage is meaningless.
tru, give us seal twisting with seal of blood !
well Baron would be immune to all frost spells, gimping frost mages. Naga also have racial frost resistance right? I think if this were a different raid that wasnt water focused they would perform better?
we should care. all phases. its not just about 60
YEa, the class balancing has been pretty sad... it's not a huge deal since lvl 25 takes about 15 hrs casually lvling to make an alt, but for people with attachments to their main class class it feels bad if that class is just trash compared to rogue/warrior dps. Would definitely like to see more balancing in the remainder of p1 and beyond... trying to be understanding giving them a break because of holidays but yea 3-4 class balancing patches in this time frame with this magnitude of difference in gameplay is pretty bad.
Warriorws OP? Lets nerf hunters!
Ret paladins should not be as strong as warriors because they can heal and bubble hearth.
Change my mind
Less mobility
I agree they should reduce the DPS gap. Trying to find a raid with underperforming dps is hard. Next phase is comming soon, so that might change some things. Balance druids will get Moonkin form to at least give raid buff, which might make them more attractive to invite. If they are buffing specs, they should do it early in the next phase.
They should be careful in nerfing and buffing. Especially at lower levels.
People seem to forget that different classes excel at different things.
he literally said they can buff it now and just nerf it later on... did you even watch?
In raids most people need 1 thing and that’s dps. Worse dps is never better.
And i realy think p3 going to be "bonkers" fleshed out classes, more raids and hopefully good pvp
what is a resto priest
I think why it looks like this is because the melees access to windfury from ferals alongside strong raidweapons and not relying on spell/ability ranks as much as the casters. Many casters get their new rank on their most used abilities at around 28. Nontheless once u have FULL BIS as a caster even they do decent dps. My wrath on boomy right now does about 160 per cast (does around 70 without any spellpower though). I think blizzard are just too scared to buff too much due to the powercreep that comes with gear, even if it takes a LONG ASS TIME to get there, sadly. Melees are nowhere close being this bad early on.
He kept mentioning specs that are underperforming but can easily switch to a higher performing spec. Look at shamans though. Both dps specs suck and there is no point in being a resto shaman. People either want the high healing priest, high healing Druid who does some damage with wrath, or healer mage who can keep a party alive and do tons of damage at the same time. There is no point in bringing a shaman to a raid especially now that feral druids took the only utility they had.
Slight balancing at lvl 25 is reasonable, but the amount of balancing being done is just kind of silly. It’s level 25. Start to bring in real balancing at 40. Feels pretty ignorant at this point as most classes don’t have their toolkits like they do at 40.
I see frost mage as a more defensive playstyle meant for i.e PvP so if you play more defensive you should not have the same output as a firemage that is pure offensive play. Warriors are OP but is pure offensive play, they got nothing defensive at this point.
Its kind of like saying Survival Hunters should get buffed because their DPS is so bad, Defensive warriors should get buffed because their DPS is bad, Holy priests should get buffed because their DPS is bad..
The ones in the top are the pure DPS specs for each class as I see it, and the lower ranks are defensive specs for each class and should not be compared.
Realistically I think the bottom 1/3-1/2 specs would be 25-50% higher on these charts IF the best players chose to play as those specs. Most players on WCL are going to play the meta specs, exacerbating the gap. Obviously this doesn't fully address the dicrepency, but it would be a more reasonable difference if all were accurately represented.
In non-sweaty raids, I've seen many of these lower specs perform quite well compared to the higher specs.
I believe the new raids should stay 10 man. I see where people are coming from with wanting the numbers bumped up but the problem comes when you realize that the new raids will not be current content forever like level 60 raids are, in the long term when the level cap is raised up again and people are leveling alts noone will put in the effort to make a 20 man gnomergan raid group when you could just grind another dungeon that's easier to form to level up. Having it be 10 man helps these raids not just be left as dead content.
*I DO CARE* 😀
So give Shadow Priests their much needed mana regen. VT, fiend pet, something, anything.
Giving them a small dmg increase isn't doing Jack! Just makes them from F-tier to E-tier.
SP's mana issue has been known since Vanilla launch as Vanilla/Classic content goes.
Mind flay is a level 20 spell. Spamming smite might do more damage as a shadow priest.
Melee is killing it with wild strikes. Wait until shamans are dropping spell power totems and boomkins have a spell party buff. I think the numbers between melee and spell casters will be much tighter in p2 and beyond.
Warriors and Rogues topping in later game in Vanilla as always. Same two classes are already topping. So what are we testing here lol!
The just need to triple the base damage of ice lance and increase the proc chance for fingers of frost
Not even acknowledging the fact that thr mage will be keeping up with the heals while being mid to upper end of dps on most pulls. And the fact the raid is already a joke
Kind of expected when casters need +spelldmg gear to pump, which Blizz gave them hardly any of this phase, vs warriors rogues and hunters only having to upgrade their weapons which makes a huge difference to those classes, and being given very good blue/epic ones.
my biggest problem with bigger raids is back in classic one lockout we were missing half the raid and we couldnt get any pugs to join so we said f it and ran it as 20.... it was easier and faster than our 40 man raids.
I think all but 2 of the hunter nerfs(scorpid and explo shot) were made to rebalance pvp and has had big impacts on pve. I believe they should’ve made the BM rune not usable against pvp targets and it would’ve been a better decision than the perpetual cycle we see now.
I play a mage now and I’m loving it. I can do solid dps and top meters by far on the turtle boss. Pulling entire dungeons is so ridiculous it feels like cheating.
I disagree with some runes not being able to use against pvp target, that would open a complete other pit and bring a long rat’s tale of problems.
But as you say: Some classes have other benefits, for example against certain bosses. Or they bring buffs. Or CC. Just looking at numbers never tells you the whole story of a game. It doesn’t tell you if anyone enjoyed the game or had fun. It just tells you that they saw larger numbers on the screen.
yeah this is a joke, they keep nerfing hunters because we are better than warriors, so this is BS
Getting close* to warriors
we havnt beaten warriors since they murdered exploshot.
A funny thing to add is if you add tank damage to that, prot warriors are out dpsing ret pallies. Buffing casters is more of a problem with spell rank at lvl 25, if frost bolt was a lvl 24 skill instead of 20 you'd see frost mages much higher up. I think at lvl 40 it will be a bit more clearer what kind of buffs they need to do, I'd hate if they buffed mage a lot now and they ended up being broken at lvl 40 one shotting people in pvp and being top dmg, and then blizz takes forever to bring them back down. Where feral druid is now I'd imagine would be the goal to bring all the dps up to.
The "prot" warriors doing that damage mostly aren't playing a prot spec. They're tanking with a arms+cruelty build in d-stance.
@@alecandro1958 Tanking warriors never go full prot in talents, all the warriors are getting deep wounds this lvl. Doesn't change the fact that they are in defensive stance using devastate. Only fight that is mixed with is the last boss, since people are 2 hand then using retaliation.
I think balancing a "whacky" seasonal event aroung the top speedrunning guilds or the top 10% of parses is incredibly useless. Most people care less about playing or being a frost mage when forming groups, they care about not getting too many other clothies into the group. You also need to consider that pvp is a much bigger focus in classic than it is in retail. Some of the worst classes in terms of dps are the best ones in pvp.
That’s funny cause hunters have been nerfed more in 2 months than any class has in the history of wow
yep. its fucking nuts.
If/when melee falls to the bottom in Ph2, THEN watch how fast the balance gets fixed. This is their MO.
« ret Paladins were buffed » well not really, the thing that was buffed is the mana regen of the seal of martyrdom but the thing is that unfortunatly it’s a dead rune at the moment and no one is using it outside of leveling because it uses the same slot as divine storm who is really strong in aoe but also for single target.
A good way to bring that rune back would be to repair the seal to let it twist with the seal of autority, because actually you can twist it with every seal except that one. With this addition that will buff ret pallys in single target situation and bring back the tbc gameplay of ret, so people would be able to choose between this or the wotlk gameplay (the actual one) 🙂
It's nice they are doing some touching up but I do think that ultimately, the level 25 bracket won't matter in the long run. Much like what everyone else is saying, level 40 is a much stronger indicator on which classes/specs need the most help. Depending on how they do runes, maybe none of it really matters until 60 because it really depends on how powerful runes end up becoming since they are the reason for why some specs are doing so much better than others.
@staysafetv I think you should have checked logs from a few weeks (or months) ago too. That's the only way to confirm if the buffs and nerfs hav had any effect. Current logs tells you the situation... but if 3 weeks ago hunters were doing double.the dps than warriors then nerfs are going on the goos direction. But if theu were still 3rd with nearly 20% difference from rogues and warriors... then nerfs are doing nothing... even if 3rd place hunter ended closer to 4th place druid
I think devs didn't really comprehend how having bis weapons is much better for physical classes than casters. They need to buff base spell damage for casters at their current max rank.
Giving warriors the WOTLK deep wounds was a stupid decision. We know already that they scale way better than every other class with gear and world buffs, now with that change to deep wounds it's going to amplify the value of crit even more. Warriors have the ability through runes to have 50% dmg boost at all times, they didn't need more damage boosts, what they needed was some fun utility.
In pvp P2 shadow priests (especially UD) are going to eat absolutely everyone and it's not even going to be close. Take the dominance of shadow priests and then give them new DoT 3 times as efficient as SWP, the ability to DoT 3 people per cast and SWD as finisher/cc break. That being said they could easily add a run that makes Spirit tap proc whenever a target dies with SWP up or when SWP expires, that way Shadow priests are required to wear spirit heavy gear still in order to find a sweet spot between damage vs regen.
i think its important to mention that they did a pretty damn good job with level 25 gaming. its not perfect - but its the first time they do something like this, so p1 is kind of like a real-time testing phase. it might also be hard to balance classes at level 25, with such limited talents/spells and gear that cant be too OP. Hopefully p2 is when things start to get more "serious". i think we all enjoy the casual aspect, but level 40 is a big jump from level 25. anyways, good video. Lets hope for a more balanced p2. and as an ehancement shaman, i dont even feel like a low teir damage -- i absolutely pump in pvp and i tanking as an ehance dw dps feels like fury prot, and is fun enough that i dont care to be low teir on charts (:
Next phase should be a big boost for a lot of those lower end dps specs, since a lot of key talents they are missing in this bracket are going to be available at 40, like Shadowform for Priests, Moonkin form for Druids, shatter for frost mages (and hopefully no frost immune bosses). They'll likely still be behind, but the gap should get smaller
Blizzard does not test/play their own game. There is no way they have good internal testing to end up with statistics that are even remotely this lopsided.
They could literally hire the people who write all these sims, tweak each class until they're equal prior to release and have all the classes / specs being remotely close.
They need to be testing PvP, Dungeons, Solo content, and Raid Performance. Each class needs some designated designers/testers who LIVE that class in game to advocate for changes... and they need to stop letting classes go neglected for entire phases of the game.
I love the parse numbers for the healers. It's 5 HPS vs 2HPS. Literally who is taking damage in BFD?
More room in raids just means lets bring more of the meta
On the raid size topic, I would have to say: make 2 versions, one 10 man, and one 25 man, that or give us more raids per tier (phase) but always have the option for 10 mans. Many of us have a guild of IRL buddies, and for some of us 40 or even 25 active players is something we just do not have. Especially that can raid at any given date. So I would say, give us more options, rather than forcing us to join guilds with randoms, or go into an uneasy merge akin to arranged marriage between two souls that have nothing in common, and are not attracted, or even like each other 😂
it's the level is useless. it'll be 60 meta at some point and then it's also just that.
- elemental/enhance are generally screwed by their early talents and spells, they might come alive more on their own
- shadowpriest needs mana issues adressed
- frost mage is akin to a pvp spec and maybe should not be competitive in a raid environment, just as we are not looking at rogue as combat/assassination/subtlety, i would be pretty sure the pure subtlety rogues are performing at a low level right now
- hunter needs a rework in the sense that it needs to move away from being an AI bot for 50% of your damage PASSIVELY. hoping on some melee hunter support in the next phase, considering phase 1 toolkits it's pretty alright with windfury provided.
I think to a degree it also feels bad to get nerfed because they completely overtuned runes to compensate for lack of skills avaible at 25 to make the same rune feel useless in the next phase.
who cares about speedruns !!??? 99,999999% of the people dont care about speedruns. you cant balance a game completely around speedrunners... take a full raid of "underperforming" classes and/or specs and you can clear the raid content easily!
How do I get this channel off my front page?
I cant wait till warriors get zerker stance and whirlwind lol
I think level 40 is when we "should" care, but I also think as this goes on, warriors and rogues will get more better more faster.
Lvl 40 is when many bottom performers get some good talents that buff their damage and will probably change something. However the rankings are going to stay the same regardless, because warriors are op. One thing that strikes me is that from all the rounds of balance, not a single time they have nerfed warrior runes.
honestly they can start somewhat balancing at 40, 50 and 60 is where they really need to fine tune things. I do believe that certain roles should be better at certain things and shouldn't be homogenized like retail is, and to a lesser extent Wrath. If they could figure that out it would instill a bit of faith with me, I wouldn't mind dealing the dps priest dmg if i was buffing or ccing etc. It's all about the give and take and blizzard doesn't understand RPGs anymore
People are missing too many talents that increase damage at this level for it to be worth buffing more than they already have. People will have most of their kit unlocked at 40 though so balance should be much tighter there.
I would expect Frost Mages to be weak in BFD, as they are water/cold-aspected, in the same way that Fire Mages are much weaker in Molten Core. Still sucks for them though.
What you said about being an ele and not getting into pugs or even guild runs is completely true. I am banking on ele being very good in next phases.
I think to your question: Are we not supposed to care until 60? I expect different specs will have highs and lows throughout the phases. The thing that annoys me is I know if ele got as far ahead as other specs as warrior and rogue are right now, it would immediately get nerfed. People would cry out because they are a bunch of piss and shit bars and then because alli would throw a fit.
Yeah ele shamans lack -1 sec cast time on lightning bolt from talents which is huge and also their next lightning bolt spell rank is at 26 so definitely going to 40 is gonna help them hugely.
@zhadez10 yes and the bonus 100% to crit will be a major benefit to lava burst. Not to mention cleave potential going up a ton with chain and the fire totems getting way stronger
"buffed ret paladins" yeah no one uses martyr and will not unless it's twistable or can be used with divine storm
I expect Mages to get better even just in the next phase. Both frost and fire will get better, Arcane will still be a mana hog. But, between better gear and more talent points Mages will rise a bit even with just the current runes we have. Same with Shamans, Spriest, Boomy, and maybe other Lock specs. It seems Blizz isn't too concerned about buffing classes that were Meta in Classic at level 60. Meme specs are becoming viable now.
Oyes, the rogue and warrior meme's
The 90th percentile isn’t an accurate measurement. As players and raid teams get better, the less likely they are to bring lower dps specs. This DPS spread may be more exaggerated than we think. Warriors and Rogues will be taken over a frost mage even if the frost mage is only 5% worse, because that’s still 5%. So these other classes aren’t getting fair representation in good raid teams, which means they don’t have a chance to benefit from faster kill time dps increases. I think a better measurement would be 70th percentile or so, because in all honesty, who cares about speed runners. Speed runners and 1%’ers don’t play classes they enjoy anyway, they play classes that are the best, even if that means by a margin of only 1% or so. All of this is to say that I think differences in dps are far less exaggerated than what this chart portrays.
Blizzard not being able to equalize DPS even when we’re providing them the data to easily figure out the % needed is just pure lack of commitment. Any of us could do it in a day.
yes. i am positive they dont play the game, besides warrior and rogues. they have no idea how the hunter works. 6 nerfs in 6 weeks. and it plays like vanilla now. no discoveries at all, dull asf.
they could simply make a panel of top players form each class, and have them on a ptr testing balance on dummies and raidbosses. it would be tuned in a day. SoD is "What did i loose today" for hunters.
Easy way to solve this would be just to add more punishing mechanics for melee players but ofc classic players don't want to deal with mechanics.