Kishotenketsu is not a story without "conflict", but rather a story without _combat._ Conflict is present whenever there is a trouble or problem, internal or external, of ANY sort. A character simply being nervous is conflict.
some people consider ghibli movies kishotenketsu and princess mononoke has plenty of combat. Is that an outlier or how is combat different in that story?
@@kfauzi109 Princess Mononoke is about the conflict of nature and humans and how foolish it is to think we can or should try to conquer nature. I like to think Princess Mononoke as a conflict between western philosophy and eastern phylosophy. The combats are necessary to resolve that. It's about how the character (a really violent person) learns and grows as a person. I think it has a lot of both narrative structures.
@@ElFacko Do not use Miyazaki's films for references on Kishoutenketsu. Miyazaki himself has stated that he does not outline his stories and just develops them in his head. It's for this reason why movies like Spirited Away have their main conflict begin only minutes after the movie began and not in the middle or nearing the end, like Your Name.
I recall, what I believe was a reddit comment that describes western narrative structure as being transformative in nature and eastern narrative structure being discovey in nature, and I think that about right. I would say the primary difference between the structure is focus that's why one is a climax and the other a twist. Easten story structure does have conflict, even a central conflict often times but that's not what the story is building towards. The narrative framework doesn’t hinge on the resolution of that conflict. Lastly, because the structure doesn't require a central conflict it allows for reactive or passive protagonist. Western narrative needs protagonist to be proactive throughout the story. Overall, eastern storytelling is probably a little less rigid then western storytelling not that the rigidity of western storytelling is bad or anything. East or West, they simply a different approch to the same thing. Telling a story.
This reminds me a lot of how biblical structures are very different from western story structures. Like one of the reasons why reading the exodus and numbers was very difficult was because I believe it had a chiastic structure, so the main point or meaning, or wisdom behind the whole plot is centered in the middle of the story. Then after the middle, the story seems to rise, but it’s resolution is mirroring the beginning of the story rather than having a unique ending.
A lot of Biblical stories are written in a similar method. I wouldn't exactly call it Kishotenketsu, but it's fairly close. Stories like Adam and Eve, The Flood, Samson, Job, Jonah and the parables of Jesus are all written in a similar 4 act structure. It's helpful when the emphasis of your story is on a moral or value rather than to watch heroes overcome obstacles and shape their world.
great video! Reframing stories I've experienced from Japanese media (games, manga, anime etc.) make so much more sense now Fascinating how there's much more focus on characters and narrative themes in a Kishotenketsu compared to the western structure where plot takes much more precedence
Great video. I will to know which books will you recommend to get more insights in the Kishotenketsu structure. As well as to know which authors of fiction books are well known for the usage of this narrative style. Greetings
I can't recommend any books, per se. My research for the videos was all web based. I'm pretty sure I included the links for every resource I used in the description of the video. But I did just write a book on the structure that I'm self publishing. I'm going to release a trailer for it shortly.
I really liked learning about this method! I have one nitpick about the video though: the transitions were a bit much and distracting. Other than that, very interesting, so thank you!
Hi futubanko. Thanks for the feedback. I'm on a break from making videos for a while, but I'm still dialing in my style. I'll take a look at my transitions and see if I can try something a bit less distracting.
How to say you've never watched anime..... 1) There is plenty of conflict in anime and manga; it's just not always obvious. It can be whether or not two people will get together, how a kid will do on a test, or even if they'll get into college or not. 2) Not only do a lot of Western movies not end with everything wrapped in a bow, a lot of anime and manga do. You know where they're going to end up, you know their place in history, and all important relationships are solved. If that's not wrapped up in a bow, I don't know what is.
Interesting how the Western and Eastern plot structures differ. What came to my mind is a kid repeatedly kicking an ant hill. In a Western story, we'd expect to see one ant rise up and drive off the kid. In Kishotenketsu, it seems the story is an observation of the ants scrambling to either return the nest to an equilibrium after each kick or to move the nest.
The reason western writing has these points solid at X time is because people go to school and are told how to draw in a way anyone can. Where manga isnt from someone educated in such a way.
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Kishotenketsu is not a story without "conflict", but rather a story without _combat._ Conflict is present whenever there is a trouble or problem, internal or external, of ANY sort. A character simply being nervous is conflict.
some people consider ghibli movies kishotenketsu and princess mononoke has plenty of combat. Is that an outlier or how is combat different in that story?
@@kfauzi109 Princess Mononoke is about the conflict of nature and humans and how foolish it is to think we can or should try to conquer nature. I like to think Princess Mononoke as a conflict between western philosophy and eastern phylosophy. The combats are necessary to resolve that. It's about how the character (a really violent person) learns and grows as a person. I think it has a lot of both narrative structures.
No it isnt.
@@brunfranc, yes, it is.
@@ElFacko Do not use Miyazaki's films for references on Kishoutenketsu. Miyazaki himself has stated that he does not outline his stories and just develops them in his head. It's for this reason why movies like Spirited Away have their main conflict begin only minutes after the movie began and not in the middle or nearing the end, like Your Name.
I recall, what I believe was a reddit comment that describes western narrative structure as being transformative in nature and eastern narrative structure being discovey in nature, and I think that about right. I would say the primary difference between the structure is focus that's why one is a climax and the other a twist. Easten story structure does have conflict, even a central conflict often times but that's not what the story is building towards. The narrative framework doesn’t hinge on the resolution of that conflict. Lastly, because the structure doesn't require a central conflict it allows for reactive or passive protagonist. Western narrative needs protagonist to be proactive throughout the story. Overall, eastern storytelling is probably a little less rigid then western storytelling not that the rigidity of western storytelling is bad or anything. East or West, they simply a different approch to the same thing. Telling a story.
This reminds me a lot of how biblical structures are very different from western story structures. Like one of the reasons why reading the exodus and numbers was very difficult was because I believe it had a chiastic structure, so the main point or meaning, or wisdom behind the whole plot is centered in the middle of the story. Then after the middle, the story seems to rise, but it’s resolution is mirroring the beginning of the story rather than having a unique ending.
A lot of Biblical stories are written in a similar method. I wouldn't exactly call it Kishotenketsu, but it's fairly close. Stories like Adam and Eve, The Flood, Samson, Job, Jonah and the parables of Jesus are all written in a similar 4 act structure. It's helpful when the emphasis of your story is on a moral or value rather than to watch heroes overcome obstacles and shape their world.
@thehierophant. I’m impressed with your reasoning. Please elaborate on this argument. I’m curious.
Excellent! I work in storytelling and with a lot of Japanese clients. And this is just excellent.
Thanks. That means a lot.
Thank you I was looking for a video to how to use this story structure when creating a book
great video!
Reframing stories I've experienced from Japanese media (games, manga, anime etc.) make so much more sense now
Fascinating how there's much more focus on characters and narrative themes in a Kishotenketsu compared to the western structure where plot takes much more precedence
Great video.
I will to know which books will you recommend to get more insights in the Kishotenketsu structure. As well as to know which authors of fiction books are well known for the usage of this narrative style.
Greetings
I can't recommend any books, per se. My research for the videos was all web based. I'm pretty sure I included the links for every resource I used in the description of the video. But I did just write a book on the structure that I'm self publishing. I'm going to release a trailer for it shortly.
Your content is excellent!
Thanks, Boss! I'm on a break from making videos for a while, owing to my intense work schedule. But I'll put out more content as soon as I can.
Intriguing!
2nd tysm! This series is fabulous
Basicamente é a diferença entre contar uma história com moral e uma história só pq aconteceu.
Yes and correct.
I really liked learning about this method! I have one nitpick about the video though: the transitions were a bit much and distracting. Other than that, very interesting, so thank you!
Hi futubanko. Thanks for the feedback. I'm on a break from making videos for a while, but I'm still dialing in my style. I'll take a look at my transitions and see if I can try something a bit less distracting.
There are Acts in plays and therefore movie, not in novels or all stories.
How to say you've never watched anime.....
1) There is plenty of conflict in anime and manga; it's just not always obvious. It can be whether or not two people will get together, how a kid will do on a test, or even if they'll get into college or not.
2) Not only do a lot of Western movies not end with everything wrapped in a bow, a lot of anime and manga do. You know where they're going to end up, you know their place in history, and all important relationships are solved. If that's not wrapped up in a bow, I don't know what is.
Interesting how the Western and Eastern plot structures differ. What came to my mind is a kid repeatedly kicking an ant hill. In a Western story, we'd expect to see one ant rise up and drive off the kid. In Kishotenketsu, it seems the story is an observation of the ants scrambling to either return the nest to an equilibrium after each kick or to move the nest.
Then there's all the anime where they kill the kid. Or the Western movies that do return to equilibrium.....
The reason western writing has these points solid at X time is because people go to school and are told how to draw in a way anyone can. Where manga isnt from someone educated in such a way.
you might not see this but man that was informative as fuck man😅and it confirms my current style minus training is spot on.... Im a genius😊😁
And humble. Don't forget humble. There's nothing better than a humble genius.
Thanks for the comment.
thank god i grew up with western media