Could Buu Saga Goku Beat Frieza In His 𝗕𝗔𝗦𝗘 𝗙𝗢𝗥𝗠?
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- There's a lot of contradictions between the two opposing sides and that's why people argue about it so heavily. So I guess first let's just answer the question, is it even possible?
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#majinbird #goku #frieza
Let's keep in mind that before the buu saga tournament started, all the saiyans agreed to not turn ssj for the whole tournament, and mind you, this is a tournament where Piccolo fused with Kami is in and also Android 18, both character who are Leagues above 100% Freiza, yet the saiyans didnt seem worried by this fact, even Vegeta outright saying he wont need to turn ssj. I mean if that doesnt prove it, i dont knoe what will...
Good point
@@pinolyzerproductionsinc.1062 It was to avoid attention as they would gain traction from others. If they did, people would of realized that it was them from the Cell saga and would of got fame
@@darkgenicsI doubt piccolo would not be able to push goku to turn super sayian. The dude got as strong as cell second form cell after the time chamber. This is supported considering piccolo, vegeta, and trunks were the only ones standing with the cell juniors.
Goku had mind reading abilities on Namek and they all could mentally train, whatever happened to these powers confused 🤔😕
Goku Oneshoting cell in the manga during a mental trainin
there's simply no way goku did not get a zenkai after being obliterated into dust by vegeta on earth, idk why people say he got 10x stronger from gravity training, he didn't, that kind of zenkai had to have put him over 24k, vegeta crushed and broke every single bone in gokus body and goku recovered a little while later from a senzu bean
That makes sense. Of course, the gravity training also helped because he was putting a ton of stress on him, essentially getting crushed every session.
@@uboa8060 he also got a zenkai boost while training since he got injured by training at very high gravity level to the point he had to use a zenzu, after that he was able to do that same gravity no problem
Nah goku got stronger off his training vegeta easily got bout 5 or 6 more zenkai boosts during the frieza saga and in the saiyan saga vegeta was stronger than goku. There’s a reason vegeta does gravity training now
No way losing to Ape Vegeta put him to 24k, maybe to 15-18k at most which is still doubling his power before kaioken.
No way he was over 24k in base lol. In fact it’s stated the gravity training made him 10 times stronger then before which means his zenkai brought him from 8k to 9k.
100% he could. Babidi's minions were plenty stronger than Frieza was.
How do you figure? Dabura is the only one I can agree with.
@@acooper7675 Supreme Kai states like a ton of people can one shot Frieza including himself and he was scared of Pui Pui who base vegeta smoked
@@acooper7675no way you think goku’s base will stay the same
@@BoringPhongerYeah facts dawg, Shin talks heavy shit about being able to Smoke Frieza to thinking they need to jump Pui Pui all together to stand a chance. Buu Saga Goku is violating.
@@gliizee Facts
He should be able to do it in the cell saga. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been a match for perfect cell. I know cell was still stronger but you have to look at how much a gap it is between final form freiza and perfect cell. If his base is weaker than freiza there’s no way he’d get anywhere near even android 17 and 18 because that’s way more than 50 times from being weaker than freiza.
I think he'd fall slightly short, he wasn't really a match for Cell in the end anyway.
@@ValientlinkGoku was evenly matched with cell, it mostly comes down to Goku just not having infinite strength.
@@jyanbei*stamina
@@jyanbeinah i doubt it, even goku knew that he ain't a match for cell
He was in no way a match for cell you on crac 😂
That 7 year timeskip is goku training without bathroom, food or sleep breaks
He still ate. Out of preference.
4:39
"Tho he can sense Freeza getting stronger from the HYPERBOLIC TIME CHAMBER"
he meant the healing pod
I think the reason Beerus was surprised by Goku beating Frieza is because he was aware of Frieza’s insane potential(Golden through simple training, then Black Frieza), but since he was asleep, he didn’t know that Frieza never trained. As a result, the Frieza in his mind was vastly stronger than the Frieza of reality
nah
Nah he didn’t know about his potential if he did he would take him as an apprentice and make him the new G.O.D making him train with whis till he becomes the strongest there ever was
Beerus’ finding out about Frieza’s defeat is before he trained to get Golden. Even so, Frieza is still among the top 1% of the mortals at that time. Still quite reasonable to be surprised at how Goku could defeat Frieza
i think he was shocked because most saiyans had power levels of only a few thousand
Honestly, I don't think they kept in mind of that. I feel like the whole potential thing was just made in the Ressurection of F so Frieza can stand a chance to catch up on Goku and Vegata. They made the worse mistake even letting him be alive again too. Vegeta made it a point that Goku was an idiot for that and that he managed to surpass their current level.
Does it ever bother anyone else how they did Frieza? During the Namek saga, he's set up to be the biggest and baddest man out there. They needed a transformation of legend that forever changed the direction of anime to finally beat this guy, with a battle going down on an exploding planet. Anyone above him would have to be some kind of god or something. Not long after he's out of the picture, he comes back 'stronger than ever' just for Trunks to show up and fodderize him. From then on, he's nothing more than a measuring stick for basically every new character introduced into the series. It's definitely not the only time I've seen this in a show, but it's probably the most noticeable. I've dubbed this trope 'Frieza Syndrome.'
that's what happens when money starts flowing in. but at least now in the manga he has been far above goku and vegeta for a while. like, really far above.
Raditz* Syndrome
The rule of thumb is, if you extend a Shounen anime beyond the arc where a villain was considered "the biggest bad," you'll get people coming out of nowhere who are somehow stronger.
DBZ did it with the Androids somehow outscaling Frieza. Naruto did it with a whole alien race appearing out of nowhere that all outscale the "Mother of Chakra" Kaguya. One Piece and Bleach probably do it, too.
Even outside of Shounen, it is common for a story to suddenly powercliff the original big bad if the plot continues on after their defeat. Because even if it makes sense, having the protag wash every antagonist afterwards would be a snoozefest, unless the story was tailor-made to deal with that from the get-go.
@@christiancinnabars1402 To be fair to Bleach, it was actually explained how the Quincy hid in the shadows for a millennium.
@@christiancinnabars1402one piece has always had it characters set up in the story for the most part before so no not really in one piece
I think the "Beerus is a gaslighter/manipulator" is the best argument in the video. Unlike some of the more subjective power level arguments, you cant even refute this.
Yeah, Beerus is trying to get Goku to show him Super Saiyan God. So he's just talking trash of Goku is super suppressed.
MajinBird stays dropping 🔥
Yes why is this even question even cell saga goku beets him in base supreme said that the kais that fought buu was enough to one shoot frieza lol
@@luissuazo3684Goku knows all the forms power. He felt them. just don’t know what they look like.
It’s probably a retcon or the way the author always intended
Because Frieza had 130m and the supreme Kais were around 200m. In cell saga Goku was weaker than the androids 19 & 20 in his base form.
@@undeaddeadyeah the androids who were leagues above Frieza in their own right?
They meant 1st form Frieza
Yes Piccolo in the Buu saga is far stronger than Freiza and Debura said he was disposable yet base Vegeta Goku and Gohan weren’t and they didn’t know they could transform at that point.
Cell saga is stronger
Plus Battle Of Gods Goku was 2 years after the Yo Son Goku special and 4 years after Buu saga so I’m sure he trained even more and grew at least a little bit stronger in his base form
Yo my guy
It was "several more months" after 6 months after Buu, not 4 years.
@@obamna5923 I'm referring to Battle of Gods, not Super's version of the arc.
@@kazi1 My apologies, I'm not sure in that case.
@@obamna5923 But you’re right for the Dragon Ball Super version, they retconned it to be 6 months.
how is this a debate he'd be able to do it in base after the 3 year timeskip in the android saga.
Facts
Another argument....... SSJ Vegeta was humiliated by Android 18, a stronger model even than the one in Trunks' timeline. Nobody will argue that Android 18 is weaker than 100% Frieza cuz they would make a fool out of themselves. Does Beerus even know Frieza's ultimate form? Or was he talking about first form Frieza?
SUPER SAIYAN Vegeta against Android 18, He was no match in the end, but fought well and lended some hits, she was likely twice as strong.
Then, when we arrive at the World Tournament, before Babidi Saga, when the boys, Goten and Trunks disguise themselves as Mighty Mask, they fight together and Android 18 struggles against them. THAT same ANDROID 18 THAT HUMILIATED a SSJ VEGETA and even trained for this tournament with husband Krillin so likely a bit stronger than before.
The boys are in BASE FORM. We could just assume that in this Saga, their father's base form is even stronger than the boys' SSJ..... so that tells you enough right?
In ROF, didnt Beerus say Frieza looked different? That could imply that Beerus never knew of first form Frieza
Edit: FINAL FORM. Not 1st, sorry
Was she even trying
@@HC-gm4fo nope
Beerus had the image of Saiyans as brutes, that's why he commented that goku doesn't look like he could kill Frieza, because most Saiyans were serious muscle mountains, meanwhile Goku was a cheery guy (he even looked slimmer in Super than Z)
Look at Vegeta, hahahah he small af for a saiyan standards.
i remember that the supreme kai said that majin buu literally manhandled all the supreme kais who were each a 1000 times stronger than frieza and ssj3 goku was on par with majin buu. So according to my calculations, at the very least majin buu should be 2x stronger than all the supreme kais combined. so that's like 2* 1000 * (120mil * 5) , which is 1.2 trillion. if buu had a power level of 1.2 trillion and goku was as strong as him in ssj3, that means he has a power level of 1.2 trillion as well in ssj3 that is, so divide 1.2 trillion by 400 cuz that is ssj3's multiplier you get 3 billion, which is wayyy stronger than full power frieza lol
100 times not 1000
It's been said a hundred times
You only need to be 100 times stronger to defeat 100 Frieza
A simple high level of strength can easily kill you. Kaioshin is perhaps eighteen times stronger, allowing him to defeat hundreds of Frieza. For example, both Trunks, Piccolo and Vegeta had greater power than Perfect Cell, yet they were unable to defeat him
Beerus’ assessment is the most accurate of all. We know fighters are able to approximate their opponents maximum even when suppressed - because Goku approximated Beerus’ without seeing more than a decimal of his power.
All Goku combat spikes could be an increasing base or an increase in transformation power. This gives enough flexibility to allow his peaks and his lower level to be true.
It’s simply comes down to a few things
1: in the Super timeline- Gokus base is lower than full power Frieza.
2: people believing they can beat Frieza are simply measuring to his 1st form which he was most well known for by Tarble and the Kai’s.
3: Yakon didn’t fold because he felt he could absorb him - paper > rock.
4: filler scales into GT but not Super, and GT Goku does actually slowly scale above Frieza, Cell, and then Buu in base
5: Kibito could only 1 shot 1st form
All pieces of evidence that Goku in the super timeline is stronger than Frieza can be very simply given an * to connect it to base form but with Beerus actually being able to project powers more accurately. Beerus is also not really surprised by Golden Frieza which seems to suggest he feels it is naturally within Friezas capacity - again another round of accurate power approximation.
Goku did saw Frieza when he read Krillin's mind
You are actually completely right and I missed this small detail
It really seems like Super is just crap at consistency. They retcon too much, and I don’t think basing anything on super is a good idea.
the answer to this is in the manga where Goku was mentally training and oneshot cell in his super saiyan state. Since Cell is x200 more stronger then frieza, he probably would do the same with frieza in his base form. Something similar happen in Janemba Movie where Gohan Oneshot frieza in his base form and that Gohan is the same gohan of Buu Saga after die by Mr Buu but without know who Super Buu is because in the context of that movie, Goku decide Kill Mr Buu and don't let the kids take the responsibility of the Earth.
You worng
The answer is yes. Goku has a habit of suppressing his power, well below what it should be. Its just like Frieza's transformations. Each one is to control his power. Goku kept his power low when he met Beerus. Remember base Goku can raise his power level without using Kaioken and Super Saiyan. He'd kill Frieza no problem in base. Goku knows his base body should also be strong because it will only help him out more when he does decide to transform.
Base Buu Saga Goku claps Frieza and it’s not even close. The Beerus line about base Goku being weaker than Frieza is filler, it’s not in the Super manga.
When will people understand that the dbs manga and the anime are separate canons
@@onyxt3589when they prefer being educated over riding a high horse. So never
Before the vid starts ill say Hell yeah
@vegetascales1643 pravo pour les 8k abonné
Another thing is that supreme kai shin couldn't lift the z sword yet base Goku could. Plus gohan had to be ssj to lift it at first but then he trains himself to lift it in base.
Gohan had to be Ssj to pull it out, that's all
>Gohan, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks had agreed to not use SSJ in the Budokai Tenkaichi, and Vegeta was still confident he could solo despite Piccolo and 18 being in there;
>Goku and Vegeta laugh at Freeza's Power, and think he should be a good foe for Goten and Trunks in Base;
>Base Goku and Vegeta can fight and/or overpower PuiPui and Yakon, enemies that Kaioshin(who Said he could one shot Freeza and scared Piccolo)was afraid of;
>Dabura and Babidi think that only Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are the strongest in there and consider Piccolo worthless, despite the fact that they don't know about Super Saiyan and are later surprised when they transform and say "what the hell is that";
>In movie 12, which is around the Buu Saga, Base Gohan one shots Freeza;
>Piccolo trains with Base Goku(in the anime) to fight the Androids, and is confident he could take on them even though he knows they should be stronger than SSJ Trunks who could Win against Mecha Freeza;
>Goten and Trunks can fight and harm Android 18 in BASE form(in Dragon Ball Kai and the manga), and the guidebooks imply that before transforming they were as strong as she was;
>Base Goku is on par with Cooler in his Second to last form, and because of that Cooler states that he could understand why Freeza was defeated, but says he is stronger than Freeza because he has an additional form;
>Kibito thinks nothing of mortals even though he knows about Super Saiyans and Freeza being defeated by them, despite that he is on par with Base Gohan and is weaker than his SSJ.
First, I will start with your points one by one. I forget. The huge increase that Goku obtained
First, Goku was able to increase his energy ten times by increasing the ability of gravity ten times. But after Namek, he hardly increases his strength because he does not continue to raise the level of gravity all the time, even Vegeta increases the level from 300 to 400 within three years.
Even Vegeta outperforms Goku by a period of three years
Secondly, when Frieza came to Earth, he was weak. Gohan was saying that he had greater strength than that in the anime, and the last thing Gohan saw was (50-75% equal to Frieza's strength). That is, he was 75% weaker than his strength on Namek, and Trunks was slightly weaker than Goku on Namek because Goku blocked all his energy easily. It does not require that it be Much stronger than your opponent until you defeat him. So Trunks would have won easily. If you want to know why, see the battle of Frieza, who did not use his full power in his third form against Piccolo Zarbon, Doudria, and Vegeta. So 18 was 40% stronger than Vegeta, and 17 was only 20% stronger than 18 16 was 20-25% stronger than 17 big jumps that only Cell had. Each Saiyan was close to 2/3 of the strength of perfect cell grade 1 because they were able to withstand a traction cell. Goku was close to the strength of perfect cell, but not stronger than him or his strength. Super Perfect Cell was like transforming into Super Saiyan 2. However, even in the Buu Saga, he was not at the cell level until he transformed into Super Saiyan 2 according to what Vegeta said within seven years. That is, he was Super Saiyan 1. He moved from being close to the cell level and then 20% stronger than him. He did not become twice as strong. So Goku did not develop much. There was a short period between Bu Saga and Arc Beerus. Goku used transformations to increase his strength. . Beerus will also take this into account that Goku was holding himself back. I mean, Vegeta himself was surprised by Kyōshin's statement that there are people capable of defeating Frieza with one blow. This confirms that they are basically not stronger than Frieza
Add that he did not have trainers after the Namek Saga and was training with people weaker than him. Even Piccolo was as strong as a Super Saiyan in the Android Saga. It is clear that Goku did not develop much.
Cell will kill Goku Super Saiyan 1 difficulty. While Goku's Saga cell kills a low difficulty cell, he just didn't develop much. Rather, it was only based on the levels of Super Saiyan 1 and other transformations. In Buu Saga he actually got two transformations
@@LuffyDragonBallHe wasn’t surprised of Kaioshin being able to oneshot Frieza, just surprised he could read his mind. Quit spreading misinformation.
When Beerus seen Goku and made that comment Goku's power level was very very low. If Goku maxed his power in base form without going Super Saiyan he could beat Frieza in his max form.
The dialogue interaction between Full Power Namek Saga Frieza over his frustration in beating Buu Saga Base Goku would be a sight to see.
He'd get absolutely washed by the kids Base powers.
It was stated that Goku in the Buu saga got as strong or even stronger than Piccolo with Kami fused in just his base, this Piccolo was leagues above SSJ Goku when the Androids first attacked, and this SSJ Goku was leagues above the SSJ Goku on Namek, so yeah, I'd say that Buu saga base Goku could basically obliterate 100% Final Form Fr(i/e)eza.
Piccolo or Goku? That said, stop making things up
When Goku came out, he was stronger than kami_piccolo, 16, 17, and 18, and close to the level of perfect cell, not super perfect cell.
He probably got a boost 10-11 times
Piccolo was stronger than Goku when he entered the Spirit and Time Chamber, 1.7 times stronger than Goku
In the saga, Poe was not much stronger
According to Vegeta's words, he did not become stronger than Super Perfect Cell until he transformed into Super Saiyan 2
Goku had close to 90% of Saga's perfect cell power
He received a 33% boost based on this
Piccolo is five and a half times stronger. Add that when he entered the Spirit and Time room, he became five times stronger. I also describe that he had been training for seven years and was able to break Babidi's barrier, which withstands blows from Majin Vegeta SSJ 2. He was ready to fight Babidi. His level is close to Goku's strength in SSJ. 1
@@LuffyDragonBall Vegeta: "I won't need to transform" (knowing that people like Piccolo and 18 are present at the tournament). Also Vegeta: litterally lets Babidi control him just to be on Goku's level. Clear as day, irrefutable by any calcs, base Goku>Piccolo during the Buu saga.
First of all, yeah he could
Second of all, kaioken is a technique so no doubt
I did a power scale of DBZ. There, Goku after leaving the Time Chamber in base is enough to defeat Full Power Frieza.
First, I will start with your points one by one. I forget. The huge increase that Goku obtained
First, Goku was able to increase his energy ten times by increasing the ability of gravity ten times. But after Namek, he hardly increases his strength because he does not continue to raise the level of gravity all the time, even Vegeta increases the level from 300 to 400 within three years.
Even Vegeta outperforms Goku by a period of three years
Secondly, when Frieza came to Earth, he was weak. Gohan was saying that he had greater strength than that in the anime, and the last thing Gohan saw was (50-75% equal to Frieza's strength). That is, he was 75% weaker than his strength on Namek, and Trunks was slightly weaker than Goku on Namek because Goku blocked all his energy easily. It does not require that it be Much stronger than your opponent until you defeat him. So Trunks would have won easily. If you want to know why, see the battle of Frieza, who did not use his full power in his third form against Piccolo Zarbon, Doudria, and Vegeta. So 18 was 40% stronger than Vegeta, and 17 was only 20% stronger than 18 16 was 20-25% stronger than 17 big jumps that only Cell had. Each Saiyan was close to 2/3 of the strength of perfect cell grade 1 because they were able to withstand a traction cell. Goku was close to the strength of perfect cell, but not stronger than him or his strength. Super Perfect Cell was like transforming into Super Saiyan 2. However, even in the Buu Saga, he was not at the cell level until he transformed into Super Saiyan 2 according to what Vegeta said within seven years. That is, he was Super Saiyan 1. He moved from being close to the cell level and then 20% stronger than him. He did not become twice as strong. So Goku did not develop much. There was a short period between Bu Saga and Arc Beerus. Goku used transformations to increase his strength. . Beerus will also take this into account that Goku was holding himself back. I mean, Vegeta himself was surprised by Kyōshin's statement that there are people capable of defeating Frieza with one blow. This confirms that they are basically not stronger than Frieza
Add that he did not have trainers after the Namek Saga and was training with people weaker than him. Even Piccolo was as strong as a Super Saiyan in the Android Saga. It is clear that Goku did not develop much.
Cell will kill Goku Super Saiyan 1 difficulty. While Goku's Saga cell kills a low difficulty cell, he just didn't develop much. Rather, it was only based on the levels of Super Saiyan 1 and other transformations. In Buu Saga he actually got two transformations
put it in reality terms, by time of his zenkai boost goku in base was enough to rough up final form frieza. Maybe not out right beat him but different fight him after snapping and going super saiyan when it flipped and Frieza was getting beaten up so if Goku is already roughly on par that a tiny boost from super saiyan was enough to push him past frieza then clearly the 13 years of training after that fight was enough to put base goku over frieza its not like goku had slowed down any between the namek fight to buu saga
You forgot when gohan one shots Frieza when he is an adult with no effort and about what shin said that the supreme kais could all one shot frieza easily
That scene was from the fusion reborn movie though, so it wasn't canon. Still, pretty sure Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta could all take Namek saga Frieza out easily by that point.
@@EpicWhiteGuy1nah, guaranTEED
Yes finally someone gets it base Goku can beat Frieza
Yes. In fact, Cooler implies that he could during the first movie, before transforming, he says that it's conceivable that Goku could have beaten his brother. Goku at this point had no used Kaioken or SSj.
Babidi's minions were also stronger than Freeza, as they were powerful enough for Kaioshin to whine when they were around, a guy who said that the Kai's were 100x Freeza..
In the Budokai, all the Saiyans were fine fighting Piccolo and 18 with just their base forms.
When Babidi asks Dabura to keep the strongest fighters alive for energy, he leaves the Base Saiyans alive over Piccolo, Piccolo, who in the last arc was able to fight on par with Vegeta and Trunks, both in SSj, against the Cell Jrs..
Beerus can't sense power levels. Beerus himself, in the same episode, states as such when Goku goes SSj3. Goku asks him to go on the offensive, and Beerus states that he can't, as he can't sense Mortal Ki, and that he needs Goku or other Mortals to attack first so he can know just how much he needs to hold back in order to attack, because if he attacked without knowing, he'd one shot.
You lair or worng
I have just started watching the video, but Babidi attracts the strongest fighters in the universe....... He was stronger than Yakon in his base form too and went only SSJ to have light.
How would Goku possibly not beat Frieza in his base form? Frieza wouldn't lay a finger on him. I mean in the Android Saga he bascially was able to hit Android 20, Gero. in base form. He was so much stronger at that point.
Goku would be like 5.600.000.000.000 in power level in the Babidi Saga whereas
100 % Frieza was
560.000.000 at best.
Goku dwarfs Frieza. Gohan, well weaker than Goku was able to hit Dabura in his base form. Dabura is super powerful and eventually as strong as SSJ2 Gohan.
Goku does a lot of fighting in Buu Saga as well and grows stronger every damn time. At the Kid Buu fight he's powerful enough to catch Kid Buu off guard and heatbuut him.
Vegeta in base form blasts Kid Buu in half..... i mean that says it all.... Frieza is literally nothing at this point.
I would estimate Pui Pui at above Semi Perfect Cell level and Vegeta wasn't even warmed up to just kill him easily after playing around. Goku at that point was a lot stronger than Vegeta.
In GT, Goku makes sport out of the two mighty villains without transformation, Cell and Frieza.....
Goku's base is already beyond SSJ3 Kid Buu Saga level at this point, claiming that Rilldo was more powerful than Majin Buu and Goku also lost a bit of power cuz he was wished into a kid form.
I feel like I say this a lot, but I think it's just another inconsistency. Sometimes the writers want to emphasize how great super saiyan is, and sometimes they don't.
If we’re talking about Namek saga Frieza, I think base Goku could beat him. However, DBS Frieza even in base form could sneeze the entire Buu saga out of existence 😂
Lairr hhhhhh
Another proof base saiyans have surpassed Frieza long ago is Gohan in his moment he became SSJ, for Gohan to be able to not get blown away by a SSJ Goku that has been training for a while in the time chamber's full power Kamehameha is enough for me to say base saiyans are stronger than Frieza, if Gohan was able to do that at that point, then Trunks and Vegeta would have probably been able to deflect the Kamehameha maybe without even going SSJ.
I tend to believe Beerus as he is the most knowledgeable character we know up to that point. Also he didn’t compare ssj Goku to Frieza until after they started fighting, so saying ssj Goku while fighting is more suppressed than his base is very shaky. Goku could have just thought ssj Goten and Trunks could have handled Abo and Cado, and they ended up just using base because they were only first form Frieza level instead of final form. Kabito was never stated to be able to be able to one shot Frieza, only the supreme Kais. He isn’t a supreme kai he is the supreme Kai’s assistant. But you did bring up a lot of good evidence and it is possible. I definitely think with kaioken he can do it.
Beerus was wrong, Goku was suppressed, or Beerus was talking trash. Goku is superior to even Gotenks. Base Gotenks is at bare minimum superior to the Super Saiyan kids, who are on par with the Cell Juniors. There's just no way around dealing with just how strong Goku is in BoG.
@@powerlevelguy8054 Goku being above Gotenks is questionable. Let's say he is. The kids were not equal with Cell jrs. The Cell jrs were just playing around.
And we know Goku wasn't suppressed because even after going ssj Beerus said Frieza was the best Goku could do.
@@weeaboo-warrior Goku is above even Gohan at BoG. Beerus states he had the most fun with Enraged Vegeta and Goku. Not Gohan. Goku is back to being top dog at BoG. Confirmed by Beerus. And no, the Super manga is very clear, Kid Trunks = Future Trunks from the Cell Games. Stated by Vegeta. And that's why we lean towards Beerus gaslighting Goku into transforming into the Super Saiyan God, we know Base Goku was well beyond Freeza ages ago. His kids can even beat Freeza in Base.
@@powerlevelguy8054 How does Goku being above Gohn in BoG prove anything? Gohan was only strong due to his mystic form, and Goku needed ssj3 to be above that, not his base. When did Vegeta state kid Trunks = Future Trunks from the cell games? Do you know what chapter? And even if that is the case, what does that prove? That would just meant ssj kid Trunks is stronger than base buu saga Goku...
@@weeaboo-warrior Because Base Goku (BoG) > Base Gotenks (BoG). We know Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) is already beyond the Super Saiyan boys power. So we have a definitive power chain of Base Goku > Base Gotenks > Ssj Kids > Freeza. In the manga right before leaving for ToP Vegeta states to Android 17 that Kid Trunks is just as strong as Future Trunks was at the CG, ending all doubt on the boy's power.
Considering the fact that 50% ssj cell games goku > grade 2 vegeta and grade 3 trunks, there’s no possible way base goku is weaker than frieza
0:22 As if that's an accomplishment? Those are PUNY HUMANS.
When Beerus assess Goku, Beerus was able to see Goku's hidden power. Why do you think Beerus knew Goku had a higher power without seeing Super Saiyan 3?
If you just assume Beerus just assess Goku base on what is on the surface, then that is wrong. If that was true, then Beerus would had never known that Goku was holding back and not suing Super Saiyan 3. But since Beerus did, that means Beerus was able to see what Goku was hiding and assess that too.
If Dragonball Super never retcon it, Goku's Base probably would had been stronger than 100% Frieza but since DBS came along and retcon it, Base Goku in the Buu Saga can't beat 100% Frieza.
Videos like this make me wanna workout more, defo earned a like and sub
Very well said God. Who are the haters must really be desperate if they’re drawing straws at that one weak argument of Beerus’ assessment of highly suppressed Base form Goku.
Everything you said is 100% I’d say both PuiPui & Yakon are several times stronger than final form frieza on Namek. With Yakon much Stronger of the two.
These two Buu Arc minions are far above final form freezer, but are eons below Perfect Cell. I can put them in the range of the weaker androids or a little bit higher. Regardless, you are right through and through. Take that haters!!! MajinBird for The win!!!
He probably beats SSJ2 Gohan and Cell from their peaks at the Cell Games.
Do a Yamcha video next!
💀
@MajinBird You too huh.... I might have to make that video myself so yall can see how OP Yamcha actually is.
@@vDorgengoa hey man go for it, id be interested to check it out
I think Beerus was just shit talking Goku by saying he’s weaker.
I don’t consider Super as canon anyway. So if base Goku fought evenly with Paikkon (who 2 shot Super Perfect Cell), he can beat Frieza.
exactly
you mean the healing pod on namak not the hyperbolic time chamber
Yeah forgot to change that 😅
@@MajinBird ight i thought you were dumb or something ngl
Heat capacity playing in the back. 10/10 video
There's also the thing Piccolo said to everyone present when talking about training to fight the Androids. He said that when the day comes they shouldn't bother showing up unless they could surpass Freeza's level of strength.
is the sky blue
Nice video, I agree with your sentiment
I think the fact that Gohan even dared facing Dabura post him going in the meditation room in base is enough for me to say base saiyans are stronger than Frieza, and by a WHOLE lot, I can simply scale other things to say that base saiyans are stronger than Frieza such as Goten and Trunks giving 18 a hard time in base, even if there were 2 of them, can I really thing 18 could have fought a Vegeta and a Goku at the same time after seeing her performance vs Goten and Trunks? Lol, and no matter what anyone says, I dont care, Gohan after his old kai power release was base Gohan, also, am I supposed to believe in that scene where Gohan got mad at the old kai and powered up that he couldnt have simply eye lazered Frieza from existence, lol base saiyans have long surpassed Frieza.
Funny thing is that when goku died everytime he stopped aging until he comes back to life
I would say he absolutely could! He's had a LOT more combat experience since then to the Buu Saga. If we're bringing Super into the argument, all he needed was that SSG form to better match up against Beerus. Once the power wore off, he was already conditioned to Beerus's fighting style and was keeping up based on that knowledge alone. Goku's strength comes from his quick learning rather than a new Super Saiyan form.
I just thought of mad shit in my head reading the title, I’ll watch the video later, but my ANSWER IS YES.
The Beatles.
Official data books state that base goku's power level in the buu saga is 60,000,000, whereas full power frieza was 120,000,000 on namek, goku would at least need base kaioken to be even with frieza, and considering he's able to handle the x10 with relative ease and go into x20 with little trouble, frieza would not be an issue for buu saga base goku (as long as he uses kaioken)
What books state that? If that was the case then Vegeta and Pui Pui who fought and made Supreme Kai who stated to be stronger than Frieza shit his pants. But if he was double their power then why would be be terrified?
Last official power levels are frpm the Frieza saga
As far as I know, this has never been officially stated but I actually agree with this. I made a private fan calc, and from scaling from the Cell Saga, I got him to that exact power level. It also lines up with Base Goku not being at Frieza's level.
When I power scale, I don't like overinflating power levels if it doesn't make sense. For example, I don't believe in God level base Goku. I see it as Goku used to be able to access the power of Super Saiyan god in his base, but they replaced that with SSG. Remember, SSB Is just SSJ with the power of a Super Saiyan God meaning every time Goku was using the normal SSJ Forms, he wasn't God level. This lines up with what's shown as Goku never used SSJ for SSG level+ Opponents outside of Beerus. Goku was as strong as Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan in SSJ2 before he got his random powerup. Then he got like 40 times stronger in the T.O.P alone somehow. So, I may not believe in overinflating power levels like some, but eve without that, Goku is still extremely busted.
Another thing that you'd have to take into consideration is that techniques are far stronger than the base power levels and were enhanced over time. If our numbers are correct for Buu Saga Goku, Base Buu Saga Goku's Kamehameha would still be stronger than the Kaiokenx20 Kamehameha.
There’s no way that’s true especially with a goku with SS3.
Sources: I made it up
The situation with DBS can explained by Goku being weaker.Before start of fight on SSJ Goku says that he’ll use his full power,so he wasn’t holding back in SSJ.
In the same arc Vegeta trains under 150g and later on says that he doesn’t feel any pleasure from this gravity now,which is strange due to Vegeta trainings under 300g and 700g in DBZ.
Kaioshin immediately sensed SSJ3 Goku power in Boo arc,but he couldn’t sense SSJ3 Gotenks Ki in DBS,only Kaio could.
Piccolo loses to a guy who only surpassed Ginyu,even if he’s way stronger,his power level is still countable,while Daizenshu 7 states that characters power level after Freeza arc became uncountable in Freeza army numeration.So it means that all Z fighters(well except Goku and Vegeta)has countable power,even Piccolo.
I don’t know why DBS nerfed character powers so bad🤷
Um Goku in base surpassed Frieza during the android saga after the 3 year time skip
Love your vids man keep it up 👍
Thank bro I plan on having many more consistently in the future
Good luck
Sometimes statements have to be ignored when they were just insanely ridiculous, it’s like taking something seriously when if you took somebody out with a grenade launcher and then later you have nuclear bomb power cannons, but then somebody just randomly says I don’t know if you could’ve beat the grenade level guy
Anybody thats using the "beerus commit" doesn't watch DB and isn't worth a arguing that statement is literally contradicted when beerus say ssj goku couldn't beat frieza even tho he demolished frieza
Goten and Trunks could beat Android 18 in base form... . enough said.
@@Firemarioflower Dawg, they were struggling in SS1 lmao
Goku never 'demolished' Freiza, he struggled to literally take the guy out. The only reason he win was because Frieza was never used ti his full power state and started losing power and stamina faster than Goku which made it easier for him to defeat the Space Pirate
@@darkgenics I read somewhere the FP Frieza's power was actually 200 Million, but dropped to 120 Million because he was fatigued and injured. Is this true by any chance?
Agreed.
Berrus was just messing with goku. He was used to other sayins and expected goku to get angry at him saying he couldn't beat frieza even thogh he had.
Probably
Healing pod not time chamber
Yes thank you
Maybe. It was stated by Tarble that Goku in base form isn’t strong enough to defeat Frieza by comparing Abo and Kado to Frieza. Buu Saga base Goku having a power level of 120+ million? It was probably somewhat less than that maybe around 90-100 million so not stronger but could outlast Frieza and outsmart him since he’s brilliant when it comes to fighting
lmae vegeta told you tarble dont know howe holding bsk works and goku said base goten trunks cna kill frieza do think goten trunksa cna beat base goku no
Yeah because he had a power level of 5 being suppressed in his base form, not only that but in the video MajinBird literally goes over how they laugh at the idea of Frieza, most likely his full power, and throw their teenage sons at those two.
Yes Buu saga Goku could defeat full power Frieza and have Bass
Goku got 10 times stronger during 6 days due to 100x gravity(which is 10 times that of king kai’s planet.) but whenever Goku trained without the gravity, it was never as effective as those 6 days with tons of gravity.
That scene from resurrection of F of ssjb goku getting shot by a Lazer contradicts dragon ball z when it comes power scaling and is a soft retcon of goku's character at that
That's from DBS, he was in base in resurrection F
@@Valientlink thank you but that just makes the problem of goku's character going through a soft reboot so much worse
@@rrose9161what do you mean Goku's going through a reboot?
@@anthonydiaz4803 goku got dumber because that was ( apparently) the only way to bring dragon ball back when they could have easily subverted fans expectations by gohan having been the super saiyan god and goku is just there as a distraction ( why didn't they go for this, it's right up toriyama's alley)
@@rrose9161 oh talking about how they dumb down Goku?
i mean, he could. and anyone who says he cant is just wrong.
You worng
@@LuffyDragonBallYou wrong
Tbh this should be pretty easy to understand, but then I remember Dragon Ball fans can't read
What happened to your buu saga video
Hmm I wouldn't say that Tarble being mentioned makes Yo Son Goku canon, it just makes the character of Tarble canon. For example, Bardock was mentioned in DBZ but the TV special version of Bardock isn't canon although Bardock himself was canon if you get what I mean.
The character is Canon but that doesn't mean those exact events depicting the character are canon.
Because now Toriyama has made a Canon Bardock (the minus/Broly version) completely erasing the TV special version of Bardock.
Of course, the idea of Canon gets convoluted etc. because even DBS contradicts DBZ in many ways so eh 🤷♂️
DBS Broly shows Goku being sent to earth as a toddler in Saiyan armor when every depiction of that before has Goku as a naked baby in the pod.
pretty sure base goku could beat final form freeza after the time chamber in the cell ark goku was suppressed when beerus stated that plus i dont think beerus is a reliable source man was asleep for 30 plus years and given his personality probably does not even remember how strong freeza was since he is incomparable to beerus on namek
Gokus first ssj was 150 million, in cell saga it was 5 billion a damn near 50x multiplier.
His base form in frieza saga was 3 million, x50 is 150 million.
Damn.
i always thought that goku never trained his base form but trained all his other forms
he pratically trains only in base form dude
lmfao *ALL* their their ( vegeta and goku ) training with wish is at base, even ui by goku is somewhat used at base in the manga, you have no idea lil bro
Yes easily
Buu saga base Goku: 100-150 million
Equal to freiza full power in namek but probably a bit weaker
No
Remeber guys It's not always about power in dragon ball
I will start off by saying that Dragon Ball super is not part of the original continuity it's in its own Realm so that Goku is different that had his power nerfed while Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z and GT are all on one timeline that have been completed years ago and cannot be changed but yes I have full confidence that Dragon Ball Z Goku during the Majin Buu saga at base form what orderly dominate full power Frieza from the Namek Saga I mean anyone that knows how the time-flow works would know that because the Androids and cell are far stronger than Frieza was it his max during the Planet Namek Saga heck even dr. Gero could put Frieza that is Max in the next dimension during the Namek Saga the one more thing to note is all of Goku's power increase in the hyperbolic Time Chamber where the time-flow is different and when Goku is in the hyperbolic Time Chamber have no doubt his base power increase substantially that's not even including the 7-year time skip have no doubt that Goku is training in the Otherworld with beings who could have easily demolished Frieza even at his max during the Namek Saga flash forward to the Majin Buu saga then you can only amplify that power another thing to note is Dragon Ball super is such a broken series and makes no sense in the term of timing as well as even its placement and that the fact they linked Supreme Kai's life to the God of destruction beerus is it's just goes against what the original continuity would have had so I don't see it as an original continuity on that front either since beerus would have wiped out Majin Buu way before Goku and Vegeta even heard of him just due to the fact that when Majin Buu is killing all of the Supreme Kai beerus saying that his life was also being threatened and that the fact that Majin Buu is causing such a mass instability and it is the God of destruction job to help maintain that balance that also goes against super being anything to do with the original continuity and it wasn't bierstadt ordered the destruction of the Saiyan race either I was solely Frieza who feared the power that the Saiyans were gaining seeing them as a threat to his throne or at least a liability the original Terror was that of the Super Saiyan and it had nothing to do with a Super Saiyan God but you also goes against super being part of the original continuity as well I mean Super is a flashy show its overall front in placement is lacking and broken that's why I've come to the conclusion that there's two versions of Goku go through that was a kid and Dragon Ball grew up in Dragon Ball Z he completed his journey and Dragon Ball GT alternate version of Goku the one that the creators of Dragon Ball super came up with Which is less powerful and had the restart button pushed on his intelligence but those were my thoughts.
Agree
Im pretty sure the Base Goku that wakes up after the heart virus would clap Frieza let alone Buu Saga Base Goku.
also i think you highballed Buu Saga Goku since he didn’t really get that much stronger during those 7 years while he was dead,im pretty sure he just trained till he got SSJ3 and thought he peaked and would remain dead forever,considering how he isn’t said to surpass Cell Saga Gohan up until he goes SSJ2 which he should easily surpass in Base if we say Goku trained the same in the HTC as he did in the Afterlife.
Yessir
Duh. Not controversial at all. Don't even need to watch it
Good video! I have to correct something: it was said SHIN could one shot Freeza, not Kibito.
For Pui Pui and Yakon, it wasn't that they were very strong -- Shin was just in PTSD mode over Buu, he would have been afraid of anyone who had a M stamped on their head just because he was so shook about it.
I think when you look at the evidence laid out in the story, especially in the Buu Saga itself, Base Buu Goku is probably stronger than Namek Frieza. However, I think it would’ve been better for the story and the powerscaling of the series if he wasn’t, and I think that sentiment is where a lot of the debate comes from.
While constant improvement is hallmark of the series, the massive amounts of exponential power growth can sometimes diminish the stakes and it makes suspension of disbelief harder, especially when a new stronger enemy shows up. Goku could’ve gotten a lot stronger without him being able to 1-shot the guy who was the most powerful being in the universe in his arc. Each arc, it feels like the previous threats are made to be nothing, and I think that if Namek Saga Frieza were still a threat (more manageable, but still a threat), then it would make the powerscale in the series more manageable.
Toriyama, while great at making spectacular stories, admitted himself he doesn’t always plan far ahead, and I think that the powercreep is a result of that. He went for the next huge exciting power up that’s really cool in the moment, but when that keeps happening, makes the powers insane, and makes old characters irrelevant.
Also I wanna say, I really like this video, and how open you are to creating discussion on these topics! Some people take a much more combative stance, but this feels very positive!
Cell Jr one shots Frieza
There’s no way Base Goku kept a 3 million power level for 16 years. Absolutely unreal. Saiyans get stronger the more they fight and train. If they can’t get stronger in base, their transformations won’t improve either. I know Broly is in a different class, but what do you think his power level was before he became a Super Saiyan? You think he capped at 3 million when he was manhandling Super Saiyan god? Heck, Frieza wasn’t at 120 million after his training. Saiyan beyond god or not, Goku’s power level wasn’t at 3 million.
Hmmm I don't think anyone said his power stayed stagnant. Just questioning if he got more than *50* times stronger in base (ignoring Kaioken). Seems like overkill when they have access to forms that multiply their power by 100-400 times. I don't know if he got 20,000 times stronger from fighting on namek to demontrating ssj3 for the first time. Seems like excessive power creep but that's kind of a trope with dragonball anyway. The story still works with out this much of an increase is all I'm saying (I've seen powerscalers put their bases below Frieza by the end of the Buu arc with good justifications along the way).
There’s no reason why it shouldn’t have multiplied after many years of training. Goku proved quite a few times that he didn’t need to use the kaioken or Super Saiyan to raise his power level. If his last recorded base level was 3 million, He should’ve been able to raise it up to 4 or 6 million without the kaioken. Just think about gohan. When he stopped training, he wasn’t capable of keeping up with Goku and Vegeta in a high stakes fight, but we can all say with unwavering confidence that he would take out Full power Frieza or any lesser forms of Cell without transforming. Base form power levels will continue to rise indefinitely, but billions might be too much.
All i know is, buu is by far the strongest in the galaxy, when you combine stamina and speed. He destroyed thousands of planets, with (what we see as kid buu, stronger then maijin buu granted) a flick of a finger, while frieza always needs a channel, and cant do that consistently. Frieza is like a nerdy rich kid, with some talent. Buu was just ... well
i think beerus only said that because gokus ki straight up doesnt register unless he is using it,so he wouldve seen weak while relaxed
no he was just strong enough at the start of bog to beat frieza stated by beers that he was still un sure if his base form was enough.
blud hes talking about Namek Frieza
In base maybe. With kio Ken easily.
Of course he could, in fact he could even 1 shot him
That's a long video, when you could just say ssj is just an Amp on the base form. Soo a stronger ssj equals a stronger base form.
short answer YES, long answer this video
Yes. Base form Goku cell saga could arguably as SS Goku post Yardrat training was able to deflect all of SS trunks' attacks with his finger. The same SS trunks that's 50x stronger than his base, which could one shot both Frieza and King Cold.
Tien being able to stop Cell from absorbing android 18 is enough for me to say base saiyans have been passed Frieza probably during the 3 year training, after Picollo and Tien got back to the lookout, Gohan told Tien, "that was really cool how you kept Cell from absorbing that other android, I dont know if I could have done that" that is pre time chamber base Gohan saying he very well could have possibly done what Tien did, which was to maybe not hurt second form Cell, but stop him from being able to get away from that island, compare that to Goku firing that beam at Frieza before he got buried into the planet, Goku had to put all of his energy into holding Frieza back, and that was in SSJ here is the clip here:
ruclips.net/video/2vInDukRMXk/видео.html
What is the music track used in this video?