Jordan's audience is far diverse than what people may claim. I have a large group of friends down here in Africa that revere the man. His principles transcend culture.
Everything that Malice talks about could and should be directed at his own (unmentionable) people, yet he always dances around the elephant in the room. Could at least one of them go off script?
I hope JP does repeat guests. I would love to see more conversations between JP and Malice. This has been, hands down, one of my favorite episodes by JP. Well done.
The moment at the end where Michael asked advice for mentoring young kids is the ultimate fruition of Jordan’s work. He let him know that he’s no longer carrying the cross on his own. What a beautiful moment. Thank you both for this ❤️
JP was just being nice to Michael. If he didn't respect his daughters relationship with Michael then he would have gone harder in the paint against Michaels deluded positions.
@@stephencarlsbad deluded? How so? Please explain because outside of him having some rather out of the box ideas which he lays out carefully and intelligently I don't see where he comes across as delusional.
@@Zappappappappa I agree with stevencarlsbad statement. I really enjoy listening to Michael, he is very intelligent and is thinking from a different dimension. Having said that, I can’t stand his atheistic pity parties where he then talks for a significant amount of time about his Jewish heritage. If we’re all here by chance-disavow the past crazy family religion and spend the time explaining how to navigate life with 7 billion different perspectives of truth (with a little t). That’s the biggest question I have for his anarchism believes. Who do we follow when something bad happens? There’s a saying, if you lock 5 people in a room and you give each person $20- by the end of the week, 1 person will have it all. Either by force or conning. He’s right that the USA is far from where we should be, but his anger to the founders his hard to swallow. I was a stupid agnostic for a long time before finding Chuck Missler and Ravi Zacharias. 173880 changed my life.
@@Zappappappappa I don't know if I'd call it delusional, but he has definitely fallen in love with his own intellect, completely dismissing the fact that in humanity's 200 or so thousand year history, a completely voluntary society, has never existed for long. He's completely discounting human nature in many ways similar to the way the totalitarian utopians do. Neither extreme has ever been demonstrated to work - yet he speaks about his perceived utopia with such conviction - as if he has it all figured out and if only us dumb statists would let go of our chains we'd usher in said utopia tomorrow. There is a way for him to demonstrate his ideas work. Convince enough anarchist utopians to purchase an island and usher in their utopia there. Once the rest of us dumb statists see how unimaginably productive and advanced the anarchists are we'll adopt more and more of their ways of life.
Is it just me, or has Dr. Peterson's podcasts become significantly better in the last two weeks? He seems healthier, more engaged, and his guests are intellectually satisfying. Really great to see.
But which is which? Anarchism is Order, as it is founded on Natural Law and the sanctity of Natural Rights. The state is Chaos, as it can only perpetuate it's existence through the constant violation of the Rights of its own population.
"For young people broadcast TV is so dead that they don't even notice the corpse." Jordan B Peterson, dropping bombshells at the mainstream media. Just love this line!
I didn't know Jordan was going to interview the president of Ukraine but why they keep talking about North Korea and how come he had Nest Jordan for money yet
There is something very relatable about Jordan, when he clearly is frustrated with himself, and he can't immediately wrap his brain around a certain thought. He then does something that I haven't mastered. He slows things down, takes a moment, organizes his thoughts, and sticks the landing.
He doesn't get offended at differing opinions and understanding he uses it to further his scope. Most people (including myself) get offended and try to convince the other side that they are right. It's a good skill to have something I need to work on. So its great to witness it
Yes, but the state still collects a media tax to pay for the bureaucracy that creates and delivers media that the young don't engage with. Needs to change.
They missed the point of medias influence through Netflix, RUclips, and news web pages. Take a gander on the Snapchat news pages and tell me there isn't disproportionate influence by media there. In fact it's worse now because the audience has their propaganda being forced to them nearly 24/7. This isn't just CNN, MSNBC, etc. There are other instituons like Hollywood and Netflix pushing the same.
This comes from scientific vernacular. Oh, sorry. I mean he talks like is expected in the circles where he learned. "Talks like a book", to quote HPMoR. When I don't watch it, it drives people nuts. It compels them to brainy, right.
@S L I will give you that it is persuasive. But the literal meaning of such a phrase is "I see no compelling proof, and some evidence to the contrary". And such it is not obvious that it is purely a persuasion tool.
@@1977pawelos well its nawt that bloody simple, I mean we all aspire to be the on the hero's journey, but we're naaawt gonna be the archetype who slays the dragon if you can't even clean your bloody room!
I feel like Malice should be on this podcast like once per month minimum. The contrast of their views paired with their ability to communicate their thoughts so precisely is just awesome.
@@motgbg nah I don’t think they’re really all that close. Malice shares more with the radical leftist in terms of generalizing and considering group guilt than with Jordan who focuses on the individual.
@@williamclayton9566 Not really no. He brands entire organizations as completely maleficent and denies any possibility that a member of that organization can act in moral ways in accordance with his job. Who the hell is that individualistic in the slightest? It’s literally no different than identity politics and group guilt
I'm going to be honest this has made me appreciate Jordan Peterson's intellect in a way that I hadn't before. I enjoy the sensation of being able to disagree with some of his prescriptions while wholeheartedly endorsing others. It makes me feel like there is actually room for growth in discourse.
I really haven't found that much desire for understanding in online discourse but I feel that it could be possible if people approached it more like this.
Read part of his biography and you wouldn't underestimate him. I never finished reading everything on Wikipedia because it was too long and I started daydreaming. I daydream all the time, but the info there was so dense that I came away thinking that he probably accomplished more in a year than I will in a lifetime. I think I can accurately predict only 10% of what he is capable of. His accomplishments are so many that I felt like I needed a nap half way through. I am an auditory learner who used to be able to memorize most of interesting lectures in college and can even recount some of the lessons from 10 years ago and what topics were the highlights of some of the courses. And, half of his talks and lectures I have to either take notes or rewatch multiple times just to get most of it. He is the only speaker I have watched that can listen, accurately interpret and repeat back the exact premise of what the other person said. I know he used to teach at Harvard. But, I think he has some strengths that even his peers there may not have to that extent. Women love to argue with him and try to catch him saying something they can twist. People who have thrice the vocabulary and reasoning skills that I do cherry pick things he said and are often rude when they approach him. I think this is because none of the take five minutes to find out what his background is they same way I had. I am sure his verbal reasoning skills are off the charts. I hear hints of a strong literary background paired with other subjects all blended together. I randomly found him on RUclips and watched classroom lectures someone filmed and progressed from there. Read a bit of his biography and he will make sense. His background explains his skills and how he integrates everything. He is so much more than just a psychologist. The breadth and depth of who is he is is more than we can imagine.
"the battle is won, when the average American regards a corporate journalist exactly as they regard a tobacco executive" Bingo! This is a great conversation.
I stopped at 1:36:57 cause I got bored, so I’m not sure if the question has been addressed but this discussion reminds me of the Sam Harris debate and other discussion pertaining religion and atheism. Where JP is basically JUST telling them that the “coin” has two sides and somehow whoever he’s talking to just doesn’t get it.
I am personally so *infatuated* with the fact that these two were disagreeing on so many different topics. With these crowds it can be super easy to go from an open place of ideas to a downright circle-jerk. But to have these two disagree - *vehemently* in some areas - and actually battle out their opinions in a civil, intellectual way is so refreshing. I had much respect for these two to begin with, but that respect has grown quite a bit. Discussions (and disagreements) like these are what will ultimately save the West.
I agree. Minarchism doesn't have enough "sufficiently anarchic" defenders. Peterson can almost replace Milgram in that capacity. Indeed, the first thing that made me respect Peterson was his promotion of Milgram's "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View." Now, if only he continuously promoted that book, and "Jury Nullification: The Evolution of a Doctrine" by Clay Conrad, in every interview, he'd be dang near perfect.
Best Michael Malice interview I’ve seen yet. I hope Jordan does this again soon, I imagine they could far deepen these conversations and I am the greedy bastard who wants more.
I really liked how Michael was confident enough in his own conviction to counter Jordan's points. I think I'd be reluctant to take on somebody as well versed and articulate as JP, even if I did disagree with any of his points (I rarely do). it was a good convo to listen to! Definately put Michael on my radar.
That's because Michael has a sort of out-of-control intensity just below the surface that seems emotional rather than rational. And since he's already not afraid to let 'er rip, it puts Jordan in an awkward position because he now has to detour around Michaels demon(s) and try to get him to see where he got it wrong. The error that I think many political theorists make is the presumption that bad faith is the probable motive behind behavior they observe from people with more power that they don't know at all. This presumption is made even more tempting and satisfying when it fits beautifully with their existing grand narrative. But the inconvenient and less self-validating reality is that they are probably operating from the same noble intentions as most everyone else (it doesn't mean what they are doing is right), but from a paradigm that is unfamiliar and couldn't possibly be understood without a lengthy (and unlikely) conversation where both parties are committed to understanding each other.
Admire Jordan and have recently bought his books. After this episode I am a lot more intrigued by what Michael has to say. So I just went and bought his books. These two are like the perfect embodiment of the daily battle going on within my head. Jordan with his hope and optimism and Michael with his utter contempt for perverted authority and the desire to wipe the slate clean.
Yes. I don’t think Jordan wants to view capitalism as bad because he’s profited from it so much, but if he could remove himself from the equation and see the overall picture….inequality is just getting worse and worse, what’s going to be the end? I say all that to say, I basically agree with everything Jordan says except for when it comes to economics lol.
@@joshnic6639 you realize Michael says he's an anarcho-capitalist? He seems to appreciate the free market. But almost no one likes what we have going on now in America, which is crony capitalism. Even Glen Beck hates that.
@@erinlikesacornishpasty4703 I believe the technical term for that "crony capitalism" is corporatism: "the control of a state or organization by large interest groups."
Really good. Glad JP pushed back on the othering and the narrative of conflict. He even cooled it off for a bit then went back to it. They have a completely different set of beliefs when it comes to evil it seems. Or MM is trolling which I don’t think he is.
It's not willful chaos. That's not at all what anarchists like Malice or Dave Smith or Tom Woods or the others that you may have heard of in that circle are about... right wing anarchism (and Malice is more aligned with right wing anarchists but is more centrist himself) is largely based in economic understanding (largely from the Austrian school, Murray Rothbard coining the term "anarcho-capitalist", and a little from the Chicago school like David Friedman)... it's not about chaos but spontaneous order. Take a look at Austrian business cycle theory for a good example of the state inherently being destructive chaos disguising itself as order. To use more Peterson style language... ideally you want balanced chaos and order, right? You want structure and stability but you also want flexibility and growth (culturally, economically, morally, etc.). Too much order is destructive as is too much chaos. And you see from things like Austrian business cycle theory that central planning... trying to steer economies invariably causes destructive chaos (see Mises' work on the economic calculation problem for why that is). So if you have spontaneous order then you can have a balance of order and chaos and actually get them working together instead of fighting each other for dominance. British common law is a great example of this. You had free market courts so the reputation of the judge was paramount. They had to be fair in their rulings to maintain their reputation because both parties had to agree on the judge. So if they were clearly biased they wouldn't get clients and thus no income. Then people would make case law books which normalized the whole process in more predictable ways. Stable, fair, and adaptable. So good that it became the foundation of almost all of Western legal structures.
@@Lechteron I’d just want ask here, and I am going to be really clear that I have had very little exposure to Tom Woods. But isn’t he technically and Ultimate Monarchist, like everyone always wonders about Jorden Peterson. You know what I’m saying? The Top Dog of monarchs.
@@cf6713 I may not know what you're saying but, no, he's definitely not a monarchist. He would take the Hoppean argument that monarchy is better than democracy but that's not because monarchy is good but that democracy is such tyrannical trash.
This is how real conversations should happen. Two intelligent human beings, with sometimes differing opinions, both shaking hands and moving on. That is the biggest lesson to take from watching this. Excellent viewing. What a beautiful thing to see. Congrats on another great episode.
Hey, Dr. Peterson. We met briefly in Seattle back in 2017. I just want to say thank you for helping lead me toward my career path into psychiatry. I realized I’d only never pursued it out of fear of rejection and failure. After what little shadow work I’ve done, I realized I could not and would not allow either be an option. Almost finished my B.S. in Psychology and next step is med school. Thanks again.
@@JohnDoe-yq9rt Don't be afraid to ask a librarian to refer you to resources relevant to your concerns. Schools used to offer work/study programs as well, many of which, by default, are going to be very aware/sensitive to your concerns.
But the context and how he came to say "reee" was chosen pretty classy imho. And in a strange way, it didnt felt bad for me personally to hear it as an sidenote because I instantly recognized that sound.
As an anarchist, I was excited to watch Peterson and Malice interact. They certainly did not disappoint! I enjoyed the sparring, and I think each did a good job of presenting his views and challenging the other's ideas. I do think that several times Michael missed chances Jordan gave him to press home his idea that malevolence is baked into the system he calls the "Cathedral". In response to Michael's assertions that malevolent people are motivated to join the government, for example, Jordan kept relating that different members of that system are often decent, even moral, people. In each of those cases, Michael had the chance to press the point that the system is so wretched that it takes even normal, moral, good people and uses them to do extremely violent, perverse acts. Brave men become soldiers and go to other countries and kill people there, even though afterwards it is obvious that the war was pointless at best. Good guys become police officers and beat up people, who afterwards are recognized as innocent. Decent folks go to Washington and end up making bad laws that require the police to use force against non-violent people. How did Hitler and Stalin accomplish so many heinous acts? Were Germany and Russia so full of abnormally bad people? The State twists people into ugly caricatures of humanity. It uses normal people to carry out atrocities.
I also thought Malice could've pressed harder on his anarchy explanation when he said that there is not a 3rd party between these two having this conversation. I don't think Jordan understood that anarchy is all about the "voluntary". I think Jordan thinks anarchy is just endless people splitting into groups and warring with one another. I think he missed the part where people will find groups that suits them and be a part of that group.
To be fair, he probably didn't push him on that because Jordan regularly goes into that on his own and is a constant voice of warning against the ease with which bad actors can lead entire populations down the tubes. One of his favorite mentions is the book "Ordinary Men". Of all people in the modern era, I would say Jordan has put into words most often and most easy to understand not just why the atrocities of the past happened (and the related psychology that causes alarmingly similar problems today), but how; and perhaps - how we might avoid it if we try.
They have manipulation down to a science. Example. Trump, a lifelong Democrat, told you exactly what you wanted to hear. He is with us. Fact. He was picked, trained and followed the exact same script they used in Russia before they slaughtered over 60 million innocent people who thought that "their Trump" was on their side. They then moved to Germany and followed same script and turned on their own citizens and used Propaganda and accused Poland of bombing them, when in fact the Nazi's bombed Germany. Death toll in WW 2 was well over 200 million and left millions under a Communist Dictator all over the world. That is why they told us they won the war. We free'd people from Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
@@sharischoll9411 how are you even remotely equating Trump to Hitler or Stalin? Trump did everything he said he would do … he let no one down other than his naïveté in thinking there were any good guys on his side or that he could create partisanship with the left.
I truly love Jordan. But as a new student of anarchy (just found the abolition of work and am on a huge information gathering expedition) I was hoping Malice would explain some of those ideas better. Either way, it was a great show.
Just finished this. With an undergrad in psych and a MA in political theory whose thesis was "Is liberal democratic theory a sufficient answer to the question of anarchism," this is legitimately both sides of my brain having a conversation and arguing amongst themselves on a daily basis. Except this is more sophisticated because I am much dumber than these two. Bravo
Malice talking about being Jewish under stalin, The Bolsheviks were 80-85% jewish, they set up the Cheka police who mostly Jewish, they used rat and ball torture in the Minsk, read up about the Cheka on wiki. They always say what was done to them but never what they did to others What a weasel he is.
@@veugeler72 I dropped out before I finished my PhD when I realized I couldn’t suffer the nightmare of academia. I now work with homeless veterans (I’m a veteran as well). I got out before I subjected myself to that misery.
I think the same could be said the other way too, at least to some degree. Malice seemed to have just enough respect for Peterson to listen to his points but not so much that he wasn't willing to outright disagree with them. It made Peterson have to go in deeper into points. It was real mental sparring, they were challenging and pushing each other without attempting to remove head from shoulders.
Malice's compassion really shines through here, especially toward the end. There are multiple times when JBP says a few words then looks deep in thought... Every time this happens Michael steps in and rounds off what Peterson was saying with a great example or anicdote. He didn't have to do any of that but clearly has respect for the person and the thought just started. He knows it's the illness/meds which have stopped Jordan short but every time proves he was onto something. Was a delight to watch such respect and reverence. Well done to both of them.
Pisses me off whenever I hear someone giving him shot for the drug problem he developed. Everyone just talks about "I GUESS ONE OF THE TWELVE RULES WASN'T 'DO NOT BE AN ADDICT'" If people only take advice from perfect individuals or only see perfect people as the singular valuable sources of wisdom then there is no wisdom.
Kinda crazy to have these voluntaryist arguments thrown at Dr. Peterson. These are two worlds that I never thought would interact, and I am so happy they are interacting.
It seemed to me that Dr. Peterson was confusing (associating/conflating) the disdain of authority by force and coercion with a general disdain for hierarchy and structure.
@@Akaeus I didn't get a sense that Dr. Peterson was confused, my interpretation was that any time you organize people into a hierarchy, the participants must be willing to play games they may not necessarily want to play at that moment, for the sake of cooperation. But the benefits of that cooperation outweigh the detriment of the participant not being able to play their preferred game in that instance. He admitted that you could call that imposing the game by force, in a sense, but every participant of the hierarchy stands to benefit - even the individual being "forced". In an ideal hierarchy, this "sacrifice" for the sake of cooperation would be distributed among all participants, which is to say that it should not the same individual always being forced to sacrifice their preferred game for the sake of those above them in the hierarchy. Such cases are a hallmark of a corrupt hierarchy. Furthermore, this configuration is a natural byproduct of organizing disparate individuals into a cohesive society. If we did as Michael suggests, and everyone had an option to always choose their preferred game, as soon as a hierarchy formed around the individuals that made the same choice, a new dichotomy would be instantiated. Analogize this to a magnet: magnets must always have a north and south pole, if you cut the magnet in half in an attempt to allow the north and south pole to exist independently, you would find that each piece now has its own north and south pole.
Honestly, this podcast proves how thoroughly Malice has thought out his positions. He's rarely pushed like this (I've watched a fair number of his interviews), and yet with every prodding, he has 10 more layers to delve into. Whether one agrees with him or not, Malice had answers for Peterson's probing and that, in itself (especially considering his admittedly controversial positions on anarchy), is worth noting. He's a funny guy, but his depth is greatly underestimated.
@@3ras3r123 He can answer it and give specific names of people, organizations and events. But it would just go over Peterson's head because he is not actually interested in talking about the specifics.
@@3ras3r123 He had answers for them. Some were organizations, some were individuals, and some were institutions. Peterson defended some of the institutions, a valid critique. That's why I remember it.
Admittedly it is the first time I’ve heard of and listened to MM and his position seemed pretty fixed and not open to change. I will agree that he has great coverage for most of JBP’s probing, but more often than not it was a fixed belief defensive responsive. He was very quick with his mental processing, responding in less than a second or even before JBP had finished his thought process, especially when he stated that he agrees or that something was correct. That is impressive on its own. Not sure I’d commit time to more MM videos but I enjoyed this one and wouldn’t be put off watching another in future. I just wonder how many people enjoyed him and how many people tolerated his rigidity. 50/50 for me.
Oh my this is quite the podcast. I love seeing Jordan get so worked up. And Malice keeps making great points! He really is strong in his beliefs and I’m surprised by how much I tended to agree with him! This is one of the most enjoyable podcasts! Must see! Great job guys!
I very much like the split screen showing both participants. The sight of minute facial changes in agreement or disagreement helped me understand the topic more. Hope this is a format going forward. Thanks a lot for the conversations
Epic! Malice tying Jordan in knots and Jordan still manages to put him on the defensive as well!!! This can't be the last Malice-Peterson interview going forward ...
maybe the best Peterson interview thus far.... I'm a big fan of his but it's cool to see his iconic constructs challenged by Michael who not only holds his ground while showing respect but advances by his witty responses. What a treat watching this jousting match. Jordan's idea that podcasting represents an entirely new form of communication whose scope cannot be completely conceived while it is evolving is fascinating.
I think its cool, but Malice far from holding his ground. Malice's arguments fall apart at the point of conflict resolution while those conflicts and methods of resolving them are fully incorporated into Petersons thinking. The Whitty responses gloss over the failure of his ideology.
I'm a huge Malice fan, and I can honestly say that his work has changed my life, and I can say the same for Peterson. This conversation is the peak of intellectual investigation. Peterson forced Malice to defend his ideas at the most fundamental level. We're watching new ideas form in live action. 👏
Coming back to rewatch it again for about the fifth time myself. So many concepts to unpack and so well thought out and articulated. Immense respect for both of them!
I haven't seen Peterson this animated and on his game since his descent into the underworld (and I realize this was recorded a bit ago). Intellectual challenge appears to be neurogenic here - it's wonderful.
@@sideeffect2 Peterson had core issues he wanted to challenge Malice on. I think this was his first attempt to argue with a right wing anarchist, and he didn't have a good plan of attack.
This conversation was phenomenal and ABSOLUTELY needs a part 2. The discussion regarding the corrupt nature of hierarchies is something I truly hope Jordan and Michael explore further... It simply CANNOT be overstated that political hierarchies are FAR MORE malevolent and “corrupt” than social, economic and competence based hierarchies for a myriad of reasons. Reasons which REALLY should be universally understood…
i encourage you to read Hans Hermann Hoppe's Anarcho-Capitalist philosopher, "A Short History of Man" and "Democracy: The God That Failed". Hierarchy is actually essential to freedom.
Amazing episode. Jordan met someone who is so temperamentally different that they were able to constructively disagree and truly converse. Ideas clashing. Inspiring!
Jordan has gone jousting with several intellectual people in his podcast Fry to Bret,and many more, but damn this one is the most interesting and downright thougt provoking entertainment .
That's becuase he very rarely speaks to critics of liberalism unless they are Leftists. His ballywick is talking with conservative liberals, progressive (dishonest) liberals, or insane Leftists. Malice is one of the only critics of liberalism on the right that is allowed to play in these circles without getting canceled. Rightwing criticism of liberalism is forboden in our society.
@@emmashalliker6862 No he hasn't. I've never heard him say that. Link or you're full of shit. I already know what the answer is, but I'll still ask you.
I’m with Michael when he says politicians and elite education are generally corrupt. Jordan push’s back by countering some exceptions to the rule which is true too but it’s the minority.
When and where Jordan went to school he got an idea of "school". When and where Michael went to school he got the ideas he got of it. Myself, I have a much harsher view of schooling than both of them. And from what I see of the recently educated, my intuition of where it was all going must have been correct. So it is much, much worse than both of them could imagine even.
The because, as Jordan occasionally says, it’s important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Exceptions or not, it would be irresponsible to ignore that they exist.
@@babyyeti2540 they are not indicative of how the system works in it's design. The rule is the rule, the exceptions highlight the rule. It's less "baby with the bathwater", and more "few innocents, but mostly not, for the electric chair". I see your point, but Jordan has to graduate to updated reality of things.
You can tell he was thrilled to be there. He also respects JBP and didn't want to show a cavalier attitude. After all, if you are chosen, it means you've reached a certain level. He's earned it. Grinding and staying true is not an easy task.
And it's great. This is the most serious defence of anarchism I've seen Malice provide, and it's actually made me respect him as a serious thinker rather than seeing him as someone who seems to spend most of his time talking about how culturally important memes are, as if no one else realises the importance of humour or satire.
@@Porkcfish The mutual respect in this conversation was palpable. It is a common thing in Jordan interviews, but in this case it seemed more stark given Michael's usual persona.
I loved the entire conversation. I teared up at the end as Michael asked for advice on how to help his friend. This is how life is meant to be….we can have disagreement and connection at the same time. You don’t dismiss someone based on a disagreement as life is more complex than an opinion.❤️
These long-form podcasts are interesting and thought provoking, but I’ve noticed they also ease my feeling of isolation and loneliness. Listening to a good podcast is like visiting some interesting friends and having a stimulating conversation for a few hours. Maybe there are a lot of other people like me?
I agree with the sentiment, but be wary of parasocial thinking. Don't entertain the idea even for a second that JBP or MM being friendly means they're being friendly *to you*. There are a lot of other people like you in some ways. But the only healthy way to be rid of loneliness is to go out and meet people. You may get to have those stimulating conversations irl.
Dear Jordan, thanks for sharing your teachings and lectures for free. I have depressions for many years. Did a therapy for 6 years and try to better myself and my life. Sometimes when life turns down on me I still have those thoughts like... Why am I still doing this?! Where's the purpose of all this bullshit in this mad world, where people get on eachothers throats for nothing?! But when I listen to you and watching your videos I still have hope. So thank you so much for being you and helping people. You do society a big favor in these modern days. And I'm sorry if my English isn't that good since I'm from Germany.
Ya I hope your right. Jordan is a bit of a monolith and he needs to kind of be put in check haha. I really think he strawmans his ideological enemies a lot of the time. He needs to debate more.
Surprisingly, this might be the most relatable JBP reaction this far. I thought the conversation was going to be extremely rough after the declaration of Michael’s anarchism. But Peterson struggled through and allowed the communication needed to navigate the fog (somewhat, at least). Hinting and commenting (in a relatively sophisticated manner) instead of letting the conversation derail over a kinda fundamental disagreement. I’m impressed, especially as I try to do this myself and constantly find it very challenging. Good effort, Jord!
This was even more entertaining than I hoped. You guys show the world that disagreeing on something can produce better opinions, I love thinking for myself and conversations like this one make that inevitable. Thank you.
Malice talking about being Jewish under stalin, The Bolsheviks were 80-85% jewish, they set up the Cheka police who mostly Jewish, they used rat and ball torture in the Minsk, read up about the Cheka's atrocities on wiki. The Jewish man Isiah Davidich Berg and his van. They always say what was done to them but never what they did to others. History is an inversion of the truth.
@Steven Thompson Is the second book called "The Power of One: Young Readers Edition" (1999)? Or is it another book all together? Is it by Bryce Courtenay? I must check it out, this stuff is always hard to find.
This is what the Christians say. God is good because he is a genocidal dictator that allows some life to continue unharmed when he chooses and that Jesus the harmless guy sacrificed himself by being harmless
JBP isn't even a Christian; he's just teaching his disciples how to game the Judeo-Christian ethos of western civilization so they can navigate it the best while the West is still a thing
With repeated interrupting before he can fully make his argument this resulting in numerous unintentional strawmen and red herrings? Peterson is a great guest but only an adequate interviewer.
Haven't seen JBP challenged like this before. This is what thought, science and politics were supposed to be. We failed and this simple conversation shows us how bad we failed.
I thought Jordan missed an opportunity when he didn’t ask why Micheal would think he “earned it” and I didn’t realize Jordan had been trying to circle back there the whole time until he finally asked micheal: “WHAT makes you think I’ve earned it”. That’s so awesome!!!
The “they” debate and the “Harvard University is irredeemable or not” debate, was pretty great and should be done again. Round 2 Bloody well needs to happen!
@@simonmasters3295 somewhat, but at the same time it can be a placeholder or avatar for very specific lists of individuals which the viewers may find called to mind, and which (especially in the case of these two men) the speaker may be able to list specifically. Malice knows the names of the they of whom he speaks
They were good debates, but I don't understand how JP missed the distinction between the Cathedral and the patriarchy, or intentionally conflated the two. That irked me.
@@PanelVulture True, but the American Revolution conspiracy was a specific act, not a cultural push. One took place in a couple months at a specific (handful of) event(s) involving specific people. The other is more a system structured to drive culture taking place over 100+ years involving thousands of people. That doesnt make the latter any less of a conspiracy - in the sense of having a publicly stated purpose but also a secret agenda.
I have watched this conversation three times now. I get something new out of it every single time. I can't thank you both enough for your work and your sitting down with one another for a serious talk. Even now I think there's more to unpack from this. Thanks again.
Everytime Jordan pauses to sort through a thought....I get prepared for something that is at the least very thoughtful and at most something very profound...I'm grateful for that man's mind ...
During the 14 minute when Michael talks of the decentralized message board platform he basically describes the first years of the Internet in the 1990s.. This is how it was back then. Gee I remember that 🤭🤣
Us Brits tend to be surprised how comfortable educated Americans are with using pop culture references during a serious discussion. It’s this lack of cultural snobbery that endears you guys to me.
Technical point regarding Jocko, all military officers, and politicians: we hold office (former Captain here). It's a low office, but we do hold it, and take the oath of office (like politicians)...and some of us are attempting to act in good faith even.
I love the injection of the right amount of tension in the conversation. This is how further understanding is established. It's a great exercise in developing my own arguments, contentions, propositions, and assertions.
“the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.” J.R.R. Tolkien
@@Galgus2000 But this statement becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for weak minds. Far better that strong minds seek out the Thoreaus, Douglasses, and Spooners, who state clearly in their campaigns that they will not coerce those who have not initiated force. Far better that they not abandon their John Browns(Ulbricht, Snowden, Aaron Patterson, Leonard Peltier, Philando Castile, Harith Augustus, etc.) to be executed by totalitarians. (I pray to the artilects that they will be capable of deep understanding...no government can survive such understanding, when it arises.) Weak strategy is encouraged by the world's bank-led prohibitionist totalitarian governments. It's weakest to continually avoid the contest because you currently lack a legitimate option. But hey, I used to work for the USA Libertarian Party until it became clear they were run by one FBI guy. (It didn't even take two of them to derail the whole LP. ...And, because the party membership is mind-bogglingly stupid, this is unlikely to change. They're even less serious than anti-participation "anarchists" are.) In any case, Americans are all unphilosophical idiots, easily destroyed by their own corrupted pseudo-government. Will they even be able to optimally extend their own lives? No. They're about as dominated as the German citizenry was in 1935. They're walking around spouting two near identical versions of the same "big lie" and arguing over which one is "god's pure truth." I give it 10 more years, max.
@@JakeWitmer Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters. C. S. Lewis
Jordan. I don't know if you take suggestions from random people in the comment section. But there is one guest that I think you would have a great conversation with in this format. Chuck Palahniuk, the man who wrote Fight Club. I've seen him mention you in a podcast with Joe Rogan in a very positive light. You both think along the same lines when it comes to meaning and have a huge impact in a lot of people's lives when they are in a dark place. Just a suggestion. But it's a discussion I, and I think many people like me, would very much like to hear. Glad to see you back in the light. Keep up the good work
How ironic is it that Malice prefers cakes over pies because the latter are "messy"? Guess we all need a bit of order in our lives. What an absolutely mesmerizing conversation, this was! Thank you SO much.
I disagree, it makes perfect sense, in view of malice's beliefs the voluntary human interactions create a ground up structure (just like a cake) that is in touch with current state of the environment/market. On the other hand, any sort of top down order is always going to lag, therefore creating more mess by trying to force outcomes that are, more or less, out of synch with reality.
@@0dious humans interacting voluntarily would be called order, only if actions of a few were against that state of order would it be considered chaos. I couldn't work out if the comment about pies being too messy was satire or not, he said it too quickly.
"We're both wrong... that's probably characterized by our whole conversation" Your humour cuts through the serious tone of your conversations and always catches me off guard making me chuckle if not full on lol. "Ha, gotcha!"
This was very lively. I haven't seen JBP challenged like this for a while. He's doesn't leave his comfort zone often and Michael did a good job. Michael youre a fighter.
I think it was partially due to JP getting lost in the inconsistencies of Malice's arguments. There were several instances where Malice would make a statement, JP would make a counter-statement, and Malice would reply with, "I completely agree". Then JP would sit there befuddled trying to reconcile how Malice can believe several seemingly contradictory things at once. That said, I really enjoyed this conversation.
This is the most significant public conversation for my life Which says more about me than the conversation But it means a fair amount to me I often think of it
Never watched this Michael fellow before. Now I've got to spend another two days down yet another rabbit hole madly chomping red pill's. There IS a heaven.
No question, this is THE BEST discussion I have ever witnessed on RUclips. Wonderful! I love Jordan Peterson, but here is the first time I have seen him question his precepts and come to grips with the contrast presented by Michael Malice. I look forward to Parts 2, 3, 4, and many more! 👍👍👍👍
And those we put in the box are no longer sleeping! "Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quotation is a film quote by the Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto regarding the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor by forces of Imperial Japan.. The quotation is portrayed at the very end of the 1970 film Tora!Tora! Tora! as: I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." Now duck and run!!!
The best thing about JBP is his mind is expanding. I think I've been waiting for an anarchist to give Jordan our concerns . In the end he just taught me that the "they" is me. I guess go clean up my room, damn.
That might be the most valuable lesson anyone can ever learn. It is tangled up in almost all aspects of our lives. Sadly Michael does not engage with the notion at all. He just says that he hasn't or wouldn't do anything bad... to me that just sounds like a lack of insight and self awareness.
Jordan met his intellectual match here. He pressed Jordan’s ideas a bit and made Jordan think more than most guests. I’m now intrigued by Malice even though I don’t agree with some of his ideas.
It's because the dynamic between classic liberalism/conservatism, and libertarianism/anarchism, is a reflection of a dilemma as old as humanity: how much order and how much chaos, produce harmony. It's a never ending dance.
Jordan treads more carefully where Michael expresses without the censoring fear of expression thy Jordan seems to be burdened with. We all have our own reasons of course, but Michael seems more liberated of inner chains.
@@Sam-go3mb Like Micahel alludes to, who says harmony is a good thing. competition is generally what drives humanity forward in a positive way. However it goes to far when it is instigating violence.
I think what people like Jordan and Micheal have done for me is not only giving direction for how to become something better but also people to look up too. Ya know, a hero that isn't fictional like Legolas or Batman.
@@hossskul544 I think it's fine to look up to people but don't hold them to a golden standard because we're all flawed. I admire both of these men in the way that they can present her arguments and in a well thought out and coherent manner. What I really get from these podcasts is that it opens me up to new ideas and allows me to think for myself and create my own or affirm theirs.
Hoss skul Looking up to someone doesn't mean placing them high up on a pedestal and expecting them to stay there while bowing to their perceived perfection...that's idolatry. I "look up" to Jordan in many areas, but specifically in his verbal communication skills, because I have many, many problems in that area. His skills are "higher" than mine. But I wouldn't necessarily look to him for guidance on whether to use medication for "mental health" issues as I feel he is less knowledgeable than me in that area (though I do think his family has had a bit of a wake up call)...
This is a good one. About halfway through, they start hitting on some disagreements (benefits of anarchy vs cooperation) and work through them together. That's literally what they were talking about earlier in the podcast: podcasts should be a medium that allows for certain opportunities (agreed-upon from the start) i.e. honest conversing, the genuine exchange of ideas, possible disagreements, intent listening, and the possibility that someone might change your mind (or augment your belief) based on the other person's insight. I think many podcasts claim to do this, but they just bring on people who agree with them, or acquiesce as soon as there is any amount of intellectual friction between the host & guest.
Jordan's audience is far diverse than what people may claim. I have a large group of friends down here in Africa that revere the man. His principles transcend culture.
Amen
The smartest man on the planet.
That is nice to hear.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Truth does that.
"The greatest thing that I got from Harvard was never again having to respect a person with a Harvard degree."
-Thomas Sowell
Seems better to respect someone for their integrity rather than for their titles.
@@kaiserironcladchad582 integrity builds people up while deception tears them down.
Everything that Malice talks about could and should be directed at his own (unmentionable) people, yet he always dances around the elephant in the room. Could at least one of them go off script?
@@taylorc2542 The Russians, indeed.
That can't really be a quote? Can it?
I hope JP does repeat guests. I would love to see more conversations between JP and Malice. This has been, hands down, one of my favorite episodes by JP. Well done.
Styles make fights
I agree I really enjoyed malice and I don’t think I’ve seen JP be so intrigued with a conversation
Hes been on mikhailas podcast and Jordan and him had a great conversation there also, in case you haven't watched.
I need help I am not a beggar I'm worried about my situation I am poor Please help me $50 food I don't want much God bless you
Agreed.
The moment at the end where Michael asked advice for mentoring young kids is the ultimate fruition of Jordan’s work. He let him know that he’s no longer carrying the cross on his own. What a beautiful moment. Thank you both for this ❤️
Michael was like a sponge in that moment, just taking in Jordan's words. Wonderful to see.
JP was just being nice to Michael. If he didn't respect his daughters relationship with Michael then he would have gone harder in the paint against Michaels deluded positions.
@@stephencarlsbad deluded? How so? Please explain because outside of him having some rather out of the box ideas which he lays out carefully and intelligently I don't see where he comes across as delusional.
@@Zappappappappa
I agree with stevencarlsbad statement.
I really enjoy listening to Michael, he is very intelligent and is thinking from a different dimension.
Having said that, I can’t stand his atheistic pity parties where he then talks for a significant amount of time about his Jewish heritage. If we’re all here by chance-disavow the past crazy family religion and spend the time explaining how to navigate life with 7 billion different perspectives of truth (with a little t).
That’s the biggest question I have for his anarchism believes. Who do we follow when something bad happens? There’s a saying, if you lock 5 people in a room and you give each person $20- by the end of the week, 1 person will have it all. Either by force or conning.
He’s right that the USA is far from where we should be, but his anger to the founders his hard to swallow.
I was a stupid agnostic for a long time before finding Chuck Missler and Ravi Zacharias. 173880 changed my life.
@@Zappappappappa
I don't know if I'd call it delusional, but he has definitely fallen in love with his own intellect, completely dismissing the fact that in humanity's 200 or so thousand year history, a completely voluntary society, has never existed for long. He's completely discounting human nature in many ways similar to the way the totalitarian utopians do. Neither extreme has ever been demonstrated to work - yet he speaks about his perceived utopia with such conviction - as if he has it all figured out and if only us dumb statists would let go of our chains we'd usher in said utopia tomorrow.
There is a way for him to demonstrate his ideas work. Convince enough anarchist utopians to purchase an island and usher in their utopia there. Once the rest of us dumb statists see how unimaginably productive and advanced the anarchists are we'll adopt more and more of their ways of life.
Is it just me, or has Dr. Peterson's podcasts become significantly better in the last two weeks? He seems healthier, more engaged, and his guests are intellectually satisfying. Really great to see.
Nope. Not just you. Totally agree. He's definetly gradually returning back to full form
Bari Weiss. Just fantastic.
It definitely seems like he's feeling much better.
Incredible observation, thank you
I noticed too, im wondering if he has taken on some of Wim Hof's techniques?? Has he mentioned it in any updates?
This conversation is, quite ironically, chaos and order. Love it.
My thoughts exactly 😂😂
"It's not ironic--It's coincidental!"
But which is which?
Anarchism is Order, as it is founded on Natural Law and the sanctity of Natural Rights.
The state is Chaos, as it can only perpetuate it's existence through the constant violation of the Rights of its own population.
But doesn't every good conversation consist out of chaos and order
Educated people having educated conversation.
"For young people broadcast TV is so dead that they don't even notice the corpse."
Jordan B Peterson, dropping bombshells at the mainstream media. Just love this line!
I only pay for wifi not cable tv or anything.
for old people too.....tv? what tv?
42 and been there for years.
got off cable in 2000, never replaced it not with satellite or anything tv related.
It’s why the liberal establishment jumped all over control of big tech.
This was unbelievably enlightening. Can’t believe this is free content. How lucky are we to live in a time such as this?!! Wow!
we are,i love them both.
I didn't know Jordan was going to interview the president of Ukraine but why they keep talking about North Korea and how come he had Nest Jordan for money yet
And that it will be preserved for future generations
@@thehillbillygamer2183Yea i thought he was super Ukrainian lookin too 😂
There is something very relatable about Jordan, when he clearly is frustrated with himself, and he can't immediately wrap his brain around a certain thought. He then does something that I haven't mastered. He slows things down, takes a moment, organizes his thoughts, and sticks the landing.
Well stated , well analyzed
everyone has a hard time exploring new ideas. Thats not something that ever changes.
The second half of the conversation was like a wise professor speaking with an extremely bright but uninformed and confident student.
He's actually just figuring out a relatable way to respond, these are not his first exposures to any of these ideas.
He doesn't get offended at differing opinions and understanding he uses it to further his scope. Most people (including myself) get offended and try to convince the other side that they are right.
It's a good skill to have something I need to work on. So its great to witness it
“For young people, broadcast media is so dead they don’t even notice the corpse”… killer observation
Yes, but the state still collects a media tax to pay for the bureaucracy that creates and delivers media that the young don't engage with. Needs to change.
So true. That statement is profound.
@@davidlynch9049 I’ll contribute to your campaign
They missed the point of medias influence through Netflix, RUclips, and news web pages. Take a gander on the Snapchat news pages and tell me there isn't disproportionate influence by media there.
In fact it's worse now because the audience has their propaganda being forced to them nearly 24/7. This isn't just CNN, MSNBC, etc. There are other instituons like Hollywood and Netflix pushing the same.
@@davidlynch9049 In which country/s
I'm delighted to see he's looking better with every interview.
It’s crazy how much his appearance change based on his well being
Was wanting to say the same thing looks healthy , skin looks good
He's back!
came here to say the same thing. you can hear the strength in his voice. im relieved.
Agreed!
I listen to Dr Peterson so often that “it isn’t obvious” has crept into my regular speech.
This comes from scientific vernacular. Oh, sorry.
I mean he talks like is expected in the circles where he learned.
"Talks like a book", to quote HPMoR.
When I don't watch it, it drives people nuts. It compels them to brainy, right.
@S L I will give you that it is persuasive. But the literal meaning of such a phrase is "I see no compelling proof, and some evidence to the contrary". And such it is not obvious that it is purely a persuasion tool.
I say “that’s the right way to think about it”.
I say "non-trivial" so much more lol
Jordan “it isn’t obvious” Peterson
Whoever's doing these detailed timestamps is the real hero
My guess would be his daughter, Mikhaila Peterson.
@@rtbphx1736 or simply hired editor (hired by mikhaila ofc)
You're not gonna tell me who is hero and who is not...
@@1977pawelos well its nawt that bloody simple, I mean we all aspire to be the on the hero's journey, but we're naaawt gonna be the archetype who slays the dragon if you can't even clean your bloody room!
I feel like Malice should be on this podcast like once per month minimum. The contrast of their views paired with their ability to communicate their thoughts so precisely is just awesome.
they have the same thesis only the starting point is different. Jordan is for the average man and Michael for the periferals(leftovers)
@@motgbg nah I don’t think they’re really all that close.
Malice shares more with the radical leftist in terms of generalizing and considering group guilt than with Jordan who focuses on the individual.
C.J. Wolf Agreed.
@@q.m9094 Malice is an anarchist, and is as individualistic as can possibly be.
@@williamclayton9566
Not really no.
He brands entire organizations as completely maleficent and denies any possibility that a member of that organization can act in moral ways in accordance with his job.
Who the hell is that individualistic in the slightest? It’s literally no different than identity politics and group guilt
I'm going to be honest this has made me appreciate Jordan Peterson's intellect in a way that I hadn't before. I enjoy the sensation of being able to disagree with some of his prescriptions while wholeheartedly endorsing others. It makes me feel like there is actually room for growth in discourse.
There's not.
I really haven't found that much desire for understanding in online discourse but I feel that it could be possible if people approached it more like this.
Read part of his biography and you wouldn't underestimate him. I never finished reading everything on Wikipedia because it was too long and I started daydreaming. I daydream all the time, but the info there was so dense that I came away thinking that he probably accomplished more in a year than I will in a lifetime.
I think I can accurately predict only 10% of what he is capable of. His accomplishments are so many that I felt like I needed a nap half way through.
I am an auditory learner who used to be able to memorize most of interesting lectures in college and can even recount some of the lessons from 10 years ago and what topics were the highlights of some of the courses. And, half of his talks and lectures I have to either take notes or rewatch multiple times just to get most of it.
He is the only speaker I have watched that can listen, accurately interpret and repeat back the exact premise of what the other person said. I know he used to teach at Harvard. But, I think he has some strengths that even his peers there may not have to that extent.
Women love to argue with him and try to catch him saying something they can twist. People who have thrice the vocabulary and reasoning skills that I do cherry pick things he said and are often rude when they approach him. I think this is because none of the take five minutes to find out what his background is they same way I had.
I am sure his verbal reasoning skills are off the charts. I hear hints of a strong literary background paired with other subjects all blended together.
I randomly found him on RUclips and watched classroom lectures someone filmed and progressed from there.
Read a bit of his biography and he will make sense. His background explains his skills and how he integrates everything. He is so much more than just a psychologist. The breadth and depth of who is he is is more than we can imagine.
Jordan + Jordan
Thank you for this comment!
It brings joy to my heart that people as genuine as this not only still exist but are also both incredibly popular in culture.
‘Popular’ on one side of the culture. Apropos of what Michael’s main point was.
Love the disagreements and pushbacks, all done civilly, with teasing & humor. This is how the best conversations happen.
ABSOfuckingLUTELY
That is why I like malice, he is very playful while still maintaining a serious topic and being respectful.
Nah, Michael Malice is just a smart-hass pretending to be civil, teasing and humorous.
"the battle is won, when the average American regards a corporate journalist exactly as they regard a tobacco executive"
Bingo! This is a great conversation.
There are dozens of moments like this in this whole podcast.
This is even better than the Jocko willink podcast, and that one was fan-flipping-tastic.
"It's a lot easier to train a smart dog than it is a dumb one." - Malice's metaphors are just golden, I love the man.
I can think of worse things than a tobacco exec. At this point people know what they're doing when they smoke cigarettes. I'm saying this as a smoker.
amen
I stopped at 1:36:57 cause I got bored, so I’m not sure if the question has been addressed but this discussion reminds me of the Sam Harris debate and other discussion pertaining religion and atheism. Where JP is basically JUST telling them that the “coin” has two sides and somehow whoever he’s talking to just doesn’t get it.
I am personally so *infatuated* with the fact that these two were disagreeing on so many different topics. With these crowds it can be super easy to go from an open place of ideas to a downright circle-jerk.
But to have these two disagree - *vehemently* in some areas - and actually battle out their opinions in a civil, intellectual way is so refreshing. I had much respect for these two to begin with, but that respect has grown quite a bit. Discussions (and disagreements) like these are what will ultimately save the West.
The only thing that can save the west is a repeal if the 19th Amendment.
Meh, I didn't know Malice. It is nice to see Peterson with someone that opposes him like that. Malice contradicts his arguments all the time.
I agree. Minarchism doesn't have enough "sufficiently anarchic" defenders. Peterson can almost replace Milgram in that capacity. Indeed, the first thing that made me respect Peterson was his promotion of Milgram's "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View." Now, if only he continuously promoted that book, and "Jury Nullification: The Evolution of a Doctrine" by Clay Conrad, in every interview, he'd be dang near perfect.
@@JakeWitmer thanks Jake. Never heard of those but I'll be ordering them today.
It’s hard to tell when they disagree. Excellent discussion!
Best Michael Malice interview I’ve seen yet. I hope Jordan does this again soon, I imagine they could far deepen these conversations and I am the greedy bastard who wants more.
Me too!
Mike beat the hell outa yaron brook also but no rerun because yaron isn't even objectivist
Check Lex Fridman podcast. Theres two episodes and both are hilarious. Not as hard on point of problems of the world but good nevertheless.
Should we change the meaning of greedy bastard:)
I really liked how Michael was confident enough in his own conviction to counter Jordan's points. I think I'd be reluctant to take on somebody as well versed and articulate as JP, even if I did disagree with any of his points (I rarely do). it was a good convo to listen to! Definately put Michael on my radar.
When you go toe to toe with Mr. Gayfrog man, death itself becomes your jester.
Michael is no intellectual lightweight.
That's because Michael has a sort of out-of-control intensity just below the surface that seems emotional rather than rational. And since he's already not afraid to let 'er rip, it puts Jordan in an awkward position because he now has to detour around Michaels demon(s) and try to get him to see where he got it wrong. The error that I think many political theorists make is the presumption that bad faith is the probable motive behind behavior they observe from people with more power that they don't know at all. This presumption is made even more tempting and satisfying when it fits beautifully with their existing grand narrative. But the inconvenient and less self-validating reality is that they are probably operating from the same noble intentions as most everyone else (it doesn't mean what they are doing is right), but from a paradigm that is unfamiliar and couldn't possibly be understood without a lengthy (and unlikely) conversation where both parties are committed to understanding each other.
Me too. Still confused about why anarchy is something to aim for... maybe I am missing something.
I need help I am not a beggar I'm worried about my situation I am poor Please help me $50 food I don't want much God bless you
Admire Jordan and have recently bought his books. After this episode I am a lot more intrigued by what Michael has to say. So I just went and bought his books. These two are like the perfect embodiment of the daily battle going on within my head. Jordan with his hope and optimism and Michael with his utter contempt for perverted authority and the desire to wipe the slate clean.
His book “The White Pill” is probably going to be the best political book of the decade when it releases
Yes. I don’t think Jordan wants to view capitalism as bad because he’s profited from it so much, but if he could remove himself from the equation and see the overall picture….inequality is just getting worse and worse, what’s going to be the end?
I say all that to say, I basically agree with everything Jordan says except for when it comes to economics lol.
@@joshnic6639 sounds like victimhood to me, capitalism is bad compared to what ? Communism ,fascism ,monarchy ? You have a utopian tone.
@@joshnic6639 you realize Michael says he's an anarcho-capitalist? He seems to appreciate the free market.
But almost no one likes what we have going on now in America, which is crony capitalism. Even Glen Beck hates that.
@@erinlikesacornishpasty4703 I believe the technical term for that "crony capitalism" is corporatism: "the control of a state or organization by large interest groups."
An outstanding exchange. The intellectual chemistry between thoughtful order & wilful chaos just works a treat. More of this.
Really good. Glad JP pushed back on the othering and the narrative of conflict. He even cooled it off for a bit then went back to it. They have a completely different set of beliefs when it comes to evil it seems. Or MM is trolling which I don’t think he is.
It's not willful chaos. That's not at all what anarchists like Malice or Dave Smith or Tom Woods or the others that you may have heard of in that circle are about... right wing anarchism (and Malice is more aligned with right wing anarchists but is more centrist himself) is largely based in economic understanding (largely from the Austrian school, Murray Rothbard coining the term "anarcho-capitalist", and a little from the Chicago school like David Friedman)... it's not about chaos but spontaneous order.
Take a look at Austrian business cycle theory for a good example of the state inherently being destructive chaos disguising itself as order.
To use more Peterson style language... ideally you want balanced chaos and order, right? You want structure and stability but you also want flexibility and growth (culturally, economically, morally, etc.). Too much order is destructive as is too much chaos. And you see from things like Austrian business cycle theory that central planning... trying to steer economies invariably causes destructive chaos (see Mises' work on the economic calculation problem for why that is). So if you have spontaneous order then you can have a balance of order and chaos and actually get them working together instead of fighting each other for dominance.
British common law is a great example of this. You had free market courts so the reputation of the judge was paramount. They had to be fair in their rulings to maintain their reputation because both parties had to agree on the judge. So if they were clearly biased they wouldn't get clients and thus no income. Then people would make case law books which normalized the whole process in more predictable ways. Stable, fair, and adaptable. So good that it became the foundation of almost all of Western legal structures.
@@Lechteron
I’d just want ask here, and I am going to be really clear that I have had very little exposure to Tom Woods. But isn’t he technically and Ultimate Monarchist, like everyone always wonders about Jorden Peterson. You know what I’m saying? The Top Dog of monarchs.
@@cf6713 I may not know what you're saying but, no, he's definitely not a monarchist. He would take the Hoppean argument that monarchy is better than democracy but that's not because monarchy is good but that democracy is such tyrannical trash.
@@Lechteron
I’m talking about God
This is how real conversations should happen. Two intelligent human beings, with sometimes differing opinions, both shaking hands and moving on. That is the biggest lesson to take from watching this. Excellent viewing. What a beautiful thing to see. Congrats on another great episode.
TBH, one of the best things in this conversations!
Hey, Dr. Peterson. We met briefly in Seattle back in 2017. I just want to say thank you for helping lead me toward my career path into psychiatry. I realized I’d only never pursued it out of fear of rejection and failure. After what little shadow work I’ve done, I realized I could not and would not allow either be an option. Almost finished my B.S. in Psychology and next step is med school. Thanks again.
That’s amazing! Well done. I love hearing people getting their lives together, there’s nothing more inspiring to me. 👊
how do you afford it? i want t o do this but fear i wouldnt be able to work while studying
Congratulations on your journey
Get it king
@@JohnDoe-yq9rt Don't be afraid to ask a librarian to refer you to resources relevant to your concerns. Schools used to offer work/study programs as well, many of which, by default, are going to be very aware/sensitive to your concerns.
Jordan Peterson is back and better than ever baby.
oh boy, it's so needed. Right now is the time we need this man the most.
Do you want skynet? Because thats how you get skynet
@Chilli Fries what? lmao
Your profile Pepe is a good one
@Chilli Fries Why not!?
I’m not even five minutes in, and Michael Malice has already uttered, in the most conversational way a court stenographer would narrate it:“Reee.”
But the context and how he came to say "reee" was chosen pretty classy imho.
And in a strange way, it didnt felt bad for me personally to hear it as an sidenote because I instantly recognized that sound.
@@Equalyzer89 why would you feel bad over that sound? Seriously asking
Answering on my own behalf, it is 99% of the time something that could cause a mass eruption of cringing.
@@Kataxu Its fringe cringe but if you binge on the unhinged your in no position to whinge.
@@cannaroe1213 wow, that was amazing!
As an anarchist, I was excited to watch Peterson and Malice interact. They certainly did not disappoint! I enjoyed the sparring, and I think each did a good job of presenting his views and challenging the other's ideas.
I do think that several times Michael missed chances Jordan gave him to press home his idea that malevolence is baked into the system he calls the "Cathedral". In response to Michael's assertions that malevolent people are motivated to join the government, for example, Jordan kept relating that different members of that system are often decent, even moral, people. In each of those cases, Michael had the chance to press the point that the system is so wretched that it takes even normal, moral, good people and uses them to do extremely violent, perverse acts. Brave men become soldiers and go to other countries and kill people there, even though afterwards it is obvious that the war was pointless at best. Good guys become police officers and beat up people, who afterwards are recognized as innocent. Decent folks go to Washington and end up making bad laws that require the police to use force against non-violent people.
How did Hitler and Stalin accomplish so many heinous acts? Were Germany and Russia so full of abnormally bad people? The State twists people into ugly caricatures of humanity. It uses normal people to carry out atrocities.
I also thought Malice could've pressed harder on his anarchy explanation when he said that there is not a 3rd party between these two having this conversation. I don't think Jordan understood that anarchy is all about the "voluntary". I think Jordan thinks anarchy is just endless people splitting into groups and warring with one another. I think he missed the part where people will find groups that suits them and be a part of that group.
To be fair, he probably didn't push him on that because Jordan regularly goes into that on his own and is a constant voice of warning against the ease with which bad actors can lead entire populations down the tubes. One of his favorite mentions is the book "Ordinary Men". Of all people in the modern era, I would say Jordan has put into words most often and most easy to understand not just why the atrocities of the past happened (and the related psychology that causes alarmingly similar problems today), but how; and perhaps - how we might avoid it if we try.
They have manipulation down to a science.
Example. Trump, a lifelong Democrat, told you exactly what you wanted to hear. He is with us. Fact. He was picked, trained and followed the exact same script they used in Russia before they slaughtered over 60 million innocent people who thought that "their Trump" was on their side. They then moved to Germany and followed same script and turned on their own citizens and used Propaganda and accused Poland of bombing them, when in fact the Nazi's bombed Germany. Death toll in WW 2 was well over 200 million and left millions under a Communist Dictator all over the world. That is why they told us they won the war. We free'd people from Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
@@sharischoll9411 how are you even remotely equating Trump to Hitler or Stalin? Trump did everything he said he would do … he let no one down other than his naïveté in thinking there were any good guys on his side or that he could create partisanship with the left.
I truly love Jordan. But as a new student of anarchy (just found the abolition of work and am on a huge information gathering expedition) I was hoping Malice would explain some of those ideas better. Either way, it was a great show.
Meme them until they cry, then make memes of them crying. -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War
Im pretty sure that was written during Shia Laboofs "He Will Not Divide Us" inccident in 2016.
@@umpteenexpression530 What- The Art Of War?
lol
Clearly ahead of his time. Lol
@@shosugino6716 The Art of burns delivery
Just finished this. With an undergrad in psych and a MA in political theory whose thesis was "Is liberal democratic theory a sufficient answer to the question of anarchism," this is legitimately both sides of my brain having a conversation and arguing amongst themselves on a daily basis. Except this is more sophisticated because I am much dumber than these two. Bravo
Hopefully you mind is whole & intact...👍
Answer: No.
@@DoctorMandible Query: "No," what?
Malice talking about being Jewish under stalin, The Bolsheviks were 80-85% jewish, they set up the Cheka police who mostly Jewish, they used rat and ball torture in the Minsk, read up about the Cheka on wiki.
They always say what was done to them but never what they did to others
What a weasel he is.
@@veugeler72 I dropped out before I finished my PhD when I realized I couldn’t suffer the nightmare of academia. I now work with homeless veterans (I’m a veteran as well). I got out before I subjected myself to that misery.
I've never seen Malice challenged to this level, but it's really engaging and enjoyable.
I think the same could be said the other way too, at least to some degree. Malice seemed to have just enough respect for Peterson to listen to his points but not so much that he wasn't willing to outright disagree with them. It made Peterson have to go in deeper into points. It was real mental sparring, they were challenging and pushing each other without attempting to remove head from shoulders.
Watch Malice's debate with Tom Woods about Alexander Hamilton. You'll see a Malice thoroughly challenged and overwhelmed. It's quite a rare sight.
They both benefit from being challenged like this. It is really enjoyable to watch; you find yourself rooting for both of them.
24:21
@@scott555 TRUTH! Huge fan of them both!
Thank you guys, thank you. I’m a pretty undereducated man, but I feel like I’m learning so much listening to these pod cast, and other pod cast.
Reading also helps....
Malice's compassion really shines through here, especially toward the end.
There are multiple times when JBP says a few words then looks deep in thought...
Every time this happens Michael steps in and rounds off what Peterson was saying with a great example or anicdote.
He didn't have to do any of that but clearly has respect for the person and the thought just started.
He knows it's the illness/meds which have stopped Jordan short but every time proves he was onto something.
Was a delight to watch such respect and reverence. Well done to both of them.
Pisses me off whenever I hear someone giving him shot for the drug problem he developed. Everyone just talks about "I GUESS ONE OF THE TWELVE RULES WASN'T 'DO NOT BE AN ADDICT'"
If people only take advice from perfect individuals or only see perfect people as the singular valuable sources of wisdom then there is no wisdom.
Kinda crazy to have these voluntaryist arguments thrown at Dr. Peterson. These are two worlds that I never thought would interact, and I am so happy they are interacting.
Absolutely, and interacting in such a productive way. Dare I say it’s a massive white pill?
I've been waiting years for this one, didn't think it ever actually would, but I'm thrilled
It seemed to me that Dr. Peterson was confusing (associating/conflating) the disdain of authority by force and coercion with a general disdain for hierarchy and structure.
@@Akaeus yeah I think Jordan had some presuppositions about the idea that Malice wasn't arguing for.
@@Akaeus I didn't get a sense that Dr. Peterson was confused, my interpretation was that any time you organize people into a hierarchy, the participants must be willing to play games they may not necessarily want to play at that moment, for the sake of cooperation. But the benefits of that cooperation outweigh the detriment of the participant not being able to play their preferred game in that instance. He admitted that you could call that imposing the game by force, in a sense, but every participant of the hierarchy stands to benefit - even the individual being "forced". In an ideal hierarchy, this "sacrifice" for the sake of cooperation would be distributed among all participants, which is to say that it should not the same individual always being forced to sacrifice their preferred game for the sake of those above them in the hierarchy. Such cases are a hallmark of a corrupt hierarchy.
Furthermore, this configuration is a natural byproduct of organizing disparate individuals into a cohesive society. If we did as Michael suggests, and everyone had an option to always choose their preferred game, as soon as a hierarchy formed around the individuals that made the same choice, a new dichotomy would be instantiated. Analogize this to a magnet: magnets must always have a north and south pole, if you cut the magnet in half in an attempt to allow the north and south pole to exist independently, you would find that each piece now has its own north and south pole.
Honestly, this podcast proves how thoroughly Malice has thought out his positions. He's rarely pushed like this (I've watched a fair number of his interviews), and yet with every prodding, he has 10 more layers to delve into. Whether one agrees with him or not, Malice had answers for Peterson's probing and that, in itself (especially considering his admittedly controversial positions on anarchy), is worth noting. He's a funny guy, but his depth is greatly underestimated.
Yeah, everything except for the "they" question. He never really answered that. And that's a big problem for his position if you ask me
@@3ras3r123 He can answer it and give specific names of people, organizations and events. But it would just go over Peterson's head because he is not actually interested in talking about the specifics.
@@3ras3r123 He had answers for them. Some were organizations, some were individuals, and some were institutions. Peterson defended some of the institutions, a valid critique. That's why I remember it.
On the contrary. I saw no evidence that Malice has any idea how things would work once they burn it all down.
Admittedly it is the first time I’ve heard of and listened to MM and his position seemed pretty fixed and not open to change.
I will agree that he has great coverage for most of JBP’s probing, but more often than not it was a fixed belief defensive responsive.
He was very quick with his mental processing, responding in less than a second or even before JBP had finished his thought process, especially when he stated that he agrees or that something was correct. That is impressive on its own.
Not sure I’d commit time to more MM videos but I enjoyed this one and wouldn’t be put off watching another in future.
I just wonder how many people enjoyed him and how many people tolerated his rigidity.
50/50 for me.
Oh my this is quite the podcast. I love seeing Jordan get so worked up. And Malice keeps making great points! He really is strong in his beliefs and I’m surprised by how much I tended to agree with him! This is one of the most enjoyable podcasts! Must see! Great job guys!
I very much like the split screen showing both participants. The sight of minute facial changes in agreement or disagreement helped me understand the topic more. Hope this is a format going forward. Thanks a lot for the conversations
I love how animated JP is. He was clearly very interested in this conversation. It made it so easy to watch and have my own curiosity sparked.
Epic! Malice tying Jordan in knots and Jordan still manages to put him on the defensive as well!!! This can't be the last Malice-Peterson interview going forward ...
I just spent 2 hours and 11 minutes watching this deep conversation. Thanks you to Jordan and Michael for the thoughts and civility.
maybe the best Peterson interview thus far.... I'm a big fan of his but it's cool to see his iconic constructs challenged by Michael who not only holds his ground while showing respect but advances by his witty responses. What a treat watching this jousting match. Jordan's idea that podcasting represents an entirely new form of communication whose scope cannot be completely conceived while it is evolving is fascinating.
I think its cool, but Malice far from holding his ground. Malice's arguments fall apart at the point of conflict resolution while those conflicts and methods of resolving them are fully incorporated into Petersons thinking. The Whitty responses gloss over the failure of his ideology.
I love to see Peterson THIS engaged. Malice ALWAYS causes that. I love this conversation!
I'm a huge Malice fan, and I can honestly say that his work has changed my life, and I can say the same for Peterson. This conversation is the peak of intellectual investigation. Peterson forced Malice to defend his ideas at the most fundamental level. We're watching new ideas form in live action. 👏
It's kinda gay that they changed your life
@@j0n275 I think your name's gay.
This was an incredible conversation, I’ve easily listened to it 10 times. Came away loving these two more, hope they talk again.
Coming back to rewatch it again for about the fifth time myself. So many concepts to unpack and so well thought out and articulated. Immense respect for both of them!
I haven't seen Peterson this animated and on his game since his descent into the underworld (and I realize this was recorded a bit ago). Intellectual challenge appears to be neurogenic here - it's wonderful.
You guys are a bunch of whimsical fanatics.
I thought the same thing! It’s like he finally received a challenge.
@@sideeffect2 Peterson had core issues he wanted to challenge Malice on. I think this was his first attempt to argue with a right wing anarchist, and he didn't have a good plan of attack.
@@studiomonster-c9l nothing he said was fanatical or whimsical. Did you just really want to say that so you shoehorned it in?
I’ll take this over any marvel movie any day.
Straight from Red Skull himself.
Well yeah super hero movies are for babies.
Which super hero would u equate Jordan to and Michael to?
fortunately they are not mutually exclusive. I can enjoy this and entertainment also.
Easy there all might
This conversation was phenomenal and ABSOLUTELY needs a part 2.
The discussion regarding the corrupt nature of hierarchies is something I truly hope Jordan and Michael explore further...
It simply CANNOT be overstated that political hierarchies are FAR MORE malevolent and “corrupt” than social, economic and competence based hierarchies for a myriad of reasons. Reasons which REALLY should be universally understood…
i encourage you to read Hans Hermann Hoppe's Anarcho-Capitalist philosopher, "A Short History of Man" and "Democracy: The God That Failed". Hierarchy is actually essential to freedom.
I love the respect from Michael. Asking before actually cursing on Dr. Petersons podcast.
Amazing episode. Jordan met someone who is so temperamentally different that they were able to constructively disagree and truly converse. Ideas clashing. Inspiring!
Jordan has gone jousting with several intellectual people in his podcast Fry to Bret,and many more, but damn this one is the most interesting and downright thougt provoking entertainment .
That's becuase he very rarely speaks to critics of liberalism unless they are Leftists. His ballywick is talking with conservative liberals, progressive (dishonest) liberals, or insane Leftists. Malice is one of the only critics of liberalism on the right that is allowed to play in these circles without getting canceled. Rightwing criticism of liberalism is forboden in our society.
@@portlandtoor I wouldn’t say verböten………….anticipated to the extreme is more like it.
@@portlandtoor But yeah…..that is Peterson‘s M.O.
I agree with this statement
@@portlandtoor interesting so why is Malice not canceled for it?
"No, it just means you'll be the last one up against the wall".
Malice is quite the underrated comedian 😅
I laughed aloud for around 25 seconds. His ball busting game is peak
My favorite quip was “Hopefully we’ll be putting them in the same camp”
This was so entertaining to watch. Perhaps the most entertaining interview yet. I hope you’ll have Michael back on soon.
This Michael is not a small guy, he is a giant brave man to speak his mind like that. Respects!
Small guy or not good conversation
Jordan completely failed to save the worth of western civilization against him.
@@larrysmith2123 what does that mean
its like watching frodo baggins argue with gandalf. hes a clueless child.
@@frodowitham5785 yeah, if Frodo was with Gandalf declaiming as virtues his pacifism toward orcs or his abstinence from spellcasting
“What your saying is you’re going to be a stand up comedian”
That made me laugh out loud as a perfect call back to the Cathy Newman topic. 🤣
Thought I might be the only one that caught that 😆
And JP didn't get the reference... took it seriously.
If only JP caught on to it in the moment hah
It's a pity it flew over JBPs head, in moments like this you can see the toll the sickness took on him, can't imagine that happening back in the day.
@@0dious Michaels the Comedian- I’ve never seen JP Look Better ! He looks and sounds GREAT ! ⭐️
Jordan Peterson interview with Alex Jones would explode the censorship.
I don’t think so. He seemed to be fine on the flagrant interview, without being censored.
Peterson has said many times conspiracy thinking is the lowest form of intelligence.
It would break the download record set by the Joe Rogan podcast.
@@emmashalliker6862 link please.
@@emmashalliker6862 No he hasn't. I've never heard him say that. Link or you're full of shit. I already know what the answer is, but I'll still ask you.
I’m with Michael when he says politicians and elite education are generally corrupt. Jordan push’s back by countering some exceptions to the rule which is true too but it’s the minority.
When and where Jordan went to school he got an idea of "school".
When and where Michael went to school he got the ideas he got of it.
Myself, I have a much harsher view of schooling than both of them. And from what I see of the recently educated, my intuition of where it was all going must have been correct. So it is much, much worse than both of them could imagine even.
The because, as Jordan occasionally says, it’s important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Exceptions or not, it would be irresponsible to ignore that they exist.
@@babyyeti2540 they are not indicative of how the system works in it's design. The rule is the rule, the exceptions highlight the rule.
It's less "baby with the bathwater", and more "few innocents, but mostly not, for the electric chair".
I see your point, but Jordan has to graduate to updated reality of things.
We have a saying that goes like: It is the exception that confirms the rule.
@@ypey1 I like that saying
I don't think I've ever seen Michael Malice be serious for this long in a row.
Even Rogan had trouble reining him in lol.
You can tell he was thrilled to be there. He also respects JBP and didn't want to show a cavalier attitude. After all, if you are chosen, it means you've reached a certain level. He's earned it. Grinding and staying true is not an easy task.
And it's great. This is the most serious defence of anarchism I've seen Malice provide, and it's actually made me respect him as a serious thinker rather than seeing him as someone who seems to spend most of his time talking about how culturally important memes are, as if no one else realises the importance of humour or satire.
@@Porkcfish The mutual respect in this conversation was palpable. It is a common thing in Jordan interviews, but in this case it seemed more stark given Michael's usual persona.
he's really an hero
I loved the entire conversation. I teared up at the end as Michael asked for advice on how to help his friend. This is how life is meant to be….we can have disagreement and connection at the same time. You don’t dismiss someone based on a disagreement as life is more complex than an opinion.❤️
These long-form podcasts are interesting and thought provoking, but I’ve noticed they also ease my feeling of isolation and loneliness. Listening to a good podcast is like visiting some interesting friends and having a stimulating conversation for a few hours. Maybe there are a lot of other people like me?
There is
Especially during COVID!
There are, mate. There are. You are definitely not alone.
I agree with the sentiment, but be wary of parasocial thinking. Don't entertain the idea even for a second that JBP or MM being friendly means they're being friendly *to you*.
There are a lot of other people like you in some ways. But the only healthy way to be rid of loneliness is to go out and meet people. You may get to have those stimulating conversations irl.
Dear Jordan,
thanks for sharing your teachings and lectures for free. I have depressions for many years. Did a therapy for 6 years and try to better myself and my life.
Sometimes when life turns down on me I still have those thoughts like... Why am I still doing this?! Where's the purpose of all this bullshit in this mad world, where people get on eachothers throats for nothing?!
But when I listen to you and watching your videos I still have hope.
So thank you so much for being you and helping people. You do society a big favor in these modern days.
And I'm sorry if my English isn't that good since I'm from Germany.
Your English is outstanding. Keep the faith, friend. Mr. Peterson is a great source for hope.
Wishing you well, from New Mexico, USA.
I think both these guys challenge each other in the right ways.
It's great to see.
Ya I hope your right. Jordan is a bit of a monolith and he needs to kind of be put in check haha. I really think he strawmans his ideological enemies a lot of the time. He needs to debate more.
@@Dorakskel :0
Surprisingly, this might be the most relatable JBP reaction this far. I thought the conversation was going to be extremely rough after the declaration of Michael’s anarchism. But Peterson struggled through and allowed the communication needed to navigate the fog (somewhat, at least). Hinting and commenting (in a relatively sophisticated manner) instead of letting the conversation derail over a kinda fundamental disagreement. I’m impressed, especially as I try to do this myself and constantly find it very challenging. Good effort, Jord!
This was even more entertaining than I hoped. You guys show the world that disagreeing on something can produce better opinions, I love thinking for myself and conversations like this one make that inevitable. Thank you.
Malice talking about being Jewish under stalin, The Bolsheviks were 80-85% jewish, they set up the Cheka police who mostly Jewish, they used rat and ball torture in the Minsk, read up about the Cheka's atrocities on wiki.
The Jewish man Isiah Davidich Berg and his van.
They always say what was done to them but never what they did to others.
History is an inversion of the truth.
69 likes 👍
@Steven Thompson By Bryce Courtenay, nope, why do you ask?
@Steven Thompson Is the second book called "The Power of One: Young Readers Edition" (1999)? Or is it another book all together? Is it by Bryce Courtenay? I must check it out, this stuff is always hard to find.
@Steven Thompson Ok so the second book is Tandia.
Thank you gentlemen, discourse as it should be.
Jordan the Grey has transcended into Jordan the White.
How is Jordan like Gandalf?
Jordan the White Supreme?
*In debate*
"I did not pass through fire and death to bandy words with a witless worm"
@@anotherangrymonkey7435 it's a joke dude, get it already
Great analogy. Gotta slay a demon that nearly slays you to re-order one's self into the higher order being
I’ve been waiting for this one for months maybe years❤️
100 years at least
Millenia
Same!
@@holyhandgrenades5529 , dinosaurs were waiting for this. unfortunately they didn’t live to see it. 🦕 🦖
Feels like years, doesn't it?
WOW - I think it was THE best interview I have seen for the last 10 years! Not only touching important matters - it does it the only proper way!
“A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a dangerous man who has that under voluntary control.”
This is what the Christians say. God is good because he is a genocidal dictator that allows some life to continue unharmed when he chooses and that Jesus the harmless guy sacrificed himself by being harmless
@@danthelambboy thanks for sharing.
JBP isn't even a Christian; he's just teaching his disciples how to game the Judeo-Christian ethos of western civilization so they can navigate it the best while the West is still a thing
@@ffnovice7 cool.
@BIG Jumbo and you as well. Thanks.
This was a lively back and forth.
This was the type of dialogue JBP is trying to demonstrate
@@sossBoomer why are you stressed over a conversation? Is a much better question.
Qwerty
It was a compelling sequence of statements that's for sure!
@@Beijzer bahaha
As a nearly blind man, I love listening to you whilst visualizing you as the great Kermit!
Love your messages!
Haven't seen Michael challenged in this way before. Interesting.
With repeated interrupting before he can fully make his argument this resulting in numerous unintentional strawmen and red herrings?
Peterson is a great guest but only an adequate interviewer.
It was awesome these two are so passionate on these subjects both convey it differently but it was a good give and take conversation between these !
@@renaissancestatesman it's the opposite. Jordan is trying to steel man Michael malice's viewpoint by hitting it from any and all directions possible.
It's a real conversation.
Haven't seen JBP challenged like this before. This is what thought, science and politics were supposed to be. We failed and this simple conversation shows us how bad we failed.
I thought Jordan missed an opportunity when he didn’t ask why Micheal would think he “earned it” and I didn’t realize Jordan had been trying to circle back there the whole time until he finally asked micheal: “WHAT makes you think I’ve earned it”. That’s so awesome!!!
1hr 33
The “they” debate and the “Harvard University is irredeemable or not” debate, was pretty great and should be done again. Round 2 Bloody well needs to happen!
Absolutely. That disaggregation of the Cathedral is a really big discussion.
"They", surely, is always deliberately ambiguous and, of necessity, a generalisation?
@@simonmasters3295 somewhat, but at the same time it can be a placeholder or avatar for very specific lists of individuals which the viewers may find called to mind, and which (especially in the case of these two men) the speaker may be able to list specifically.
Malice knows the names of the they of whom he speaks
They were good debates, but I don't understand how JP missed the distinction between the Cathedral and the patriarchy, or intentionally conflated the two. That irked me.
@@PanelVulture True, but the American Revolution conspiracy was a specific act, not a cultural push. One took place in a couple months at a specific (handful of) event(s) involving specific people. The other is more a system structured to drive culture taking place over 100+ years involving thousands of people. That doesnt make the latter any less of a conspiracy - in the sense of having a publicly stated purpose but also a secret agenda.
I have watched this conversation three times now. I get something new out of it every single time. I can't thank you both enough for your work and your sitting down with one another for a serious talk. Even now I think there's more to unpack from this. Thanks again.
This is a great conversation. Honestly can’t hit the like button harder. I’ll break my phone.
If you hit it hard enough to crack your screen, it drops 5 likes. Promise.
Facts
@@CelestialDesign noted 🤯
Everytime Jordan pauses to sort through a thought....I get prepared for something that is at the least very thoughtful and at most something very profound...I'm grateful for that man's mind ...
P.S. I teared up at the very end ...these are 2 of the BEST men walking the planet...
During the 14 minute when Michael talks of the decentralized message board platform he basically describes the first years of the Internet in the 1990s.. This is how it was back then. Gee I remember that 🤭🤣
I just watched this, and it is a fantastic conversation. Thank you both.
I love that he just quoted Devil Wears Prada in an intellectual argument.
That’s him intentionally dumbing it down for the general audience. He does that a lot.
Us Brits tend to be surprised how comfortable educated Americans are with using pop culture references during a serious discussion. It’s this lack of cultural snobbery that endears you guys to me.
I have no idea which quote you're mentioning because I've never cared to watch that movie
@@twm2darkness he gave the quote. We all know it’s a mainstream movie wether you watched it or not.
@@ThePdeHav it really caught me off guard and I started laughing. He is very funny.
“NORMIES GET OUT REEE”
That sounds about right
normal means average. average mean mediocre. and there is nothing praiseworthy about mediocre.
I don't get the reee
@@zacharypayne4080 It's an expression of frustration. It's supposed to be screamed out loud.
"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"
@@TheShootist since when are "average" and "mediocre" synonyms? I view being average as a good thing.
lol
I really like both of these guys.
I'm not sure about Micheal
I guess they're alright for homosexuals
Technical point regarding Jocko, all military officers, and politicians: we hold office (former Captain here). It's a low office, but we do hold it, and take the oath of office (like politicians)...and some of us are attempting to act in good faith even.
I love the injection of the right amount of tension in the conversation. This is how further understanding is established. It's a great exercise in developing my own arguments, contentions, propositions, and assertions.
"It's not in the nature of politics that the best men come to power - for the best men don't desire to govern their fellow man." George Macdonald
" who says they don't ? " - Roger Legends
@@rogerlegends166 broooo u did not just quote yaself 😂😂😂
“the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.” J.R.R. Tolkien
@@Galgus2000 But this statement becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for weak minds. Far better that strong minds seek out the Thoreaus, Douglasses, and Spooners, who state clearly in their campaigns that they will not coerce those who have not initiated force. Far better that they not abandon their John Browns(Ulbricht, Snowden, Aaron Patterson, Leonard Peltier, Philando Castile, Harith Augustus, etc.) to be executed by totalitarians. (I pray to the artilects that they will be capable of deep understanding...no government can survive such understanding, when it arises.) Weak strategy is encouraged by the world's bank-led prohibitionist totalitarian governments. It's weakest to continually avoid the contest because you currently lack a legitimate option.
But hey, I used to work for the USA Libertarian Party until it became clear they were run by one FBI guy. (It didn't even take two of them to derail the whole LP. ...And, because the party membership is mind-bogglingly stupid, this is unlikely to change. They're even less serious than anti-participation "anarchists" are.)
In any case, Americans are all unphilosophical idiots, easily destroyed by their own corrupted pseudo-government. Will they even be able to optimally extend their own lives? No. They're about as dominated as the German citizenry was in 1935. They're walking around spouting two near identical versions of the same "big lie" and arguing over which one is "god's pure truth."
I give it 10 more years, max.
@@JakeWitmer Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters.
C. S. Lewis
Jordan. I don't know if you take suggestions from random people in the comment section. But there is one guest that I think you would have a great conversation with in this format. Chuck Palahniuk, the man who wrote Fight Club. I've seen him mention you in a podcast with Joe Rogan in a very positive light. You both think along the same lines when it comes to meaning and have a huge impact in a lot of people's lives when they are in a dark place. Just a suggestion. But it's a discussion I, and I think many people like me, would very much like to hear. Glad to see you back in the light. Keep up the good work
That’s a great idea!
I would love to see jordan's anaylsis of Fight club.
Yeah! Wow I never thought of a Chuck P episode but it would be an incredible spectacle
Brilliant suggestion!
I second this.
How ironic is it that Malice prefers cakes over pies because the latter are "messy"?
Guess we all need a bit of order in our lives.
What an absolutely mesmerizing conversation, this was!
Thank you SO much.
I disagree, it makes perfect sense, in view of malice's beliefs the voluntary human interactions create a ground up structure (just like a cake) that is in touch with current state of the environment/market. On the other hand, any sort of top down order is always going to lag, therefore creating more mess by trying to force outcomes that are, more or less, out of synch with reality.
The pie just needs to be organized properly. In a bowl. With ice cream.
Then, the degree to which it is messy is irrelevant.
@@0dious humans interacting voluntarily would be called order, only if actions of a few were against that state of order would it be considered chaos.
I couldn't work out if the comment about pies being too messy was satire or not, he said it too quickly.
@@enjerth78 underrated comment
A part 2 is most definitely needed
"We're both wrong... that's probably characterized by our whole conversation"
Your humour cuts through the serious tone of your conversations and always catches me off guard making me chuckle if not full on lol. "Ha, gotcha!"
Comedic relief is a course correction before they lose the audience
This was very lively. I haven't seen JBP challenged like this for a while. He's doesn't leave his comfort zone often and Michael did a good job. Michael youre a fighter.
It could have something to do with Malice being a friend of his daughter.
That was really fun to watch.
I think it was partially due to JP getting lost in the inconsistencies of Malice's arguments. There were several instances where Malice would make a statement, JP would make a counter-statement, and Malice would reply with, "I completely agree". Then JP would sit there befuddled trying to reconcile how Malice can believe several seemingly contradictory things at once.
That said, I really enjoyed this conversation.
@@djones7136 hey! They are here to tear it down, not fix.
@Andrew 👍🏻
“CrossFit- which is this big gay fitness organization”.
Lol
No lies detected ^^
Uuuuh based lmao
I died.
Time stamp please? lol
Loved that.
This is the most significant public conversation for my life
Which says more about me than the conversation
But it means a fair amount to me
I often think of it
Never watched this Michael fellow before. Now I've got to spend another two days down yet another rabbit hole madly chomping red pill's. There IS a heaven.
He was recently a guest on The Rubin Report
Only problem I can find with this conversation is it’s only 2 hours long
No question, this is THE BEST discussion I have ever witnessed on RUclips. Wonderful! I love Jordan Peterson, but here is the first time I have seen him question his precepts and come to grips with the contrast presented by Michael Malice. I look forward to Parts 2, 3, 4, and many more! 👍👍👍👍
'For young people Broadcast TV is so dead they don't even notice the corpse'
-Jordan B Peterson
It's definitely the case with my kids. They don't understand what commercials are.
Except, for sports. That is one of the only things broadcast TV still owns and supports.
Woah! I'm 29 so I kinda notice the Corpse I guess hahah
For those who are paying attention, it isn't too difficult to see the corpse of broadcast media puppetted by necromancy.
And those we put in the box are no longer sleeping!
"Isoroku Yamamoto's sleeping giant quotation is a film quote by the Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto regarding the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor by forces of Imperial Japan.. The quotation is portrayed at the very end of the 1970 film Tora!Tora! Tora! as: I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." Now duck and run!!!
Its so seldom we hear a discussion thats actually in good faith. I respect both of these 2 so much that I absolutely devour their disputes
My thoughts exactly!
The best thing about JBP is his mind is expanding. I think I've been waiting for an anarchist to give Jordan our concerns . In the end he just taught me that the "they" is me. I guess go clean up my room, damn.
That might be the most valuable lesson anyone can ever learn. It is tangled up in almost all aspects of our lives. Sadly Michael does not engage with the notion at all. He just says that he hasn't or wouldn't do anything bad... to me that just sounds like a lack of insight and self awareness.
Jordan met his intellectual match here. He pressed Jordan’s ideas a bit and made Jordan think more than most guests. I’m now intrigued by Malice even though I don’t agree with some of his ideas.
It's because the dynamic between classic liberalism/conservatism, and libertarianism/anarchism, is a reflection of a dilemma as old as humanity: how much order and how much chaos, produce harmony. It's a never ending dance.
Lol it’s just two guys talking no ones keeping score
Jordan treads more carefully where Michael expresses without the censoring fear of expression thy Jordan seems to be burdened with. We all have our own reasons of course, but Michael seems more liberated of inner chains.
What dont you agree with specifically?
@@Sam-go3mb Like Micahel alludes to, who says harmony is a good thing. competition is generally what drives humanity forward in a positive way. However it goes to far when it is instigating violence.
Hot damn... What an episode. Definitely one of the bests since Dr. Peterson came back!
I think what people like Jordan and Micheal have done for me is not only giving direction for how to become something better but also people to look up too. Ya know, a hero that isn't fictional like Legolas or Batman.
@@hossskul544 I think it's fine to look up to people but don't hold them to a golden standard because we're all flawed. I admire both of these men in the way that they can present her arguments and in a well thought out and coherent manner. What I really get from these podcasts is that it opens me up to new ideas and allows me to think for myself and create my own or affirm theirs.
Hoss skul
Looking up to someone doesn't mean placing them high up on a pedestal and expecting them to stay there while bowing to their perceived perfection...that's idolatry.
I "look up" to Jordan in many areas, but specifically in his verbal communication skills, because I have many, many problems in that area. His skills are "higher" than mine.
But I wouldn't necessarily look to him for guidance on whether to use medication for "mental health" issues as I feel he is less knowledgeable than me in that area (though I do think his family has had a bit of a wake up call)...
This is a good one. About halfway through, they start hitting on some disagreements (benefits of anarchy vs cooperation) and work through them together. That's literally what they were talking about earlier in the podcast: podcasts should be a medium that allows for certain opportunities (agreed-upon from the start) i.e. honest conversing, the genuine exchange of ideas, possible disagreements, intent listening, and the possibility that someone might change your mind (or augment your belief) based on the other person's insight. I think many podcasts claim to do this, but they just bring on people who agree with them, or acquiesce as soon as there is any amount of intellectual friction between the host & guest.
They did work through them, they got sidetracked.
Jordan practicing #9: Assume the person you're listening to knows something you don't.