I also did this with a level dip into Dao Genie and taking the Crusher Feat so I can use Archer for the bonus action forced movement over telekinetic or using my action to move the Moonbeam, good times
I'm currently playing a Stars druid/life cleric for godly heals, but I never forget that I can just go full blaster if I need to. I've had sessions where my character has done 0 damage over multiple combats but pulled allies up from 0 to full HP more than once, and I've had one session where I was the main DPS despite being in a party with an assassin rogue, a draconic sorcerer and a way of Mercy monk
I love Moonbeam and of course, it is one of my favourite Druid spells. Druids absolutely deserve the love they're getting on your channel. Although I must confess, my favourite Druid spell is Call Lightning and yes, I am THAT guy that constantly asks their DM if there's a storm brewing or if the thunderstorm is near us. Love that little environmental interaction. Do you think there's a way to optimize that spell?
It's tough because it's not going to be usable at all a lot of time (indoors). Off the top of my head, I would think Tempest Cleric is probably your best route because you can combine call lightning with Thunderbolt Strike to potentially force movement from multiple enemies with no saving throw in addition to the damage (as well as channel divinity for max damage)
@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks! That is along the lines of what I was thinking. The problem for me is whenever I multiclass into cleric, I always end up taking 5 levels for spirit guardians. On a different note, it would be cool if more spells had environmental interactions.
Call Lightning was my favourite go-to spell for my Storm Sorcerer (with homebrew subclass spell list) in Curse of Strahd, where the DM ruled that the sky was _always_ cloudy enough to be considered a storm unless otherwise specified, and very few battles took place indoors. The closest I got to optimising it was using Quickened Spell to get two strikes on the first turn, as well as letting me strike and cast a spell on subsequent turns if needed.
Moonbeam was my big gun spell in the first big fight I ever played in dnd (yes I played a Druid as my first character) As luck would have it, some of the enemies we fought were shapechangers, so the spell ended up being really effective Plus I always find the idea of an orbital laser chasing people around hilarious
I like having thunder wave prepared as an option to push enemies into the moonbeam. I find enemies often move towards me rather than away from me, so it’s more useful to push with thunder wave than pull with thorn whip
Great points, all. I think the best way to optimize Moonbeam, much like Flaming Sphere, is to use Move Earth to dig a 15ft deep pit (deeper if possible), and cast Moonbeam into the pit, them have your Monk shove enemies into the pit. Enemies in the pit will always start in the Moonbeam, and your Monk can knock them back in. Or anyone with the crusher feat for that matter. Just have them hold their action.
My plan is to make a Swarmkeeper Ranger that uses Shillelagh (Druidic Warrior Fighting Style) w/ Crusher+PAM to move people around the battlefield. Still deciding if I want to go more than 5 levels in Ranger, or multiclass out to something else. Good to know Moonbeam might also be a go spell prep here!
If you are a DM and are concerned about the power level of his strategy, just remember that monsters can grapple, too. Nothing ends a concentration spell quite like grabbing the spellcaster and shoving (or throwing) them into their own damaging spell.
I'm currently running Curse of Strahd, and have a Druid in the party with Moonbeam, and also a Cleric in the party with Spirit Guardians. Between them, Werewolves and Undead drop like flies. They definitely did not need optimization help on this combo, Treantmonk, god dammit. XD (Additional, there's also a Sun Soul Monk in the party, and in a campaign where Radiant damage really matters, it's surprisingly not awful)
I always thought it was weird that just standing in the beam dealt less damage than moving into and out of it. Surely, you should take more damage if you stay in the damage area.
By RAW you cannot do the moonbeam damage more than 1x per rd. It’s when they FIRST enter the moonbeam that round OR if they start their turn in the Moonbeam. Not both.
I’ve played a 3rd level Circle of Stars Druid whose main big gun was Moonbeam, and the combination of Moonbeam with either Thunderwave or Thornwhip and the archer form bonus action delivered so much damage for the level
Moon beam also is one of your better options if you're not in a forced movement party but you're in a party that's good at making people not move. I'm Dming a party with a dnd one ranger with the slow mastery on their long bow, a lance of lethargy warlock, a sorceror with summon shadowspawn and binding ice, and a level 7 oath of conquest paladin. So there's a lot of options that causes an enemy to have zero speed, some are very cheap and sometimes multiple of them require actions to break free of. If you can reduce a melee exclusive enemies speed to zero at range you shouldn't spend any additional resources on damage. But if you're attacking a ranged enemy or relying on that conquest paladin aura so that they have to be in melee with someone, moon beam will be the play as well... Or is it? Maybe flaming sphere is better cause it hits twice?
The main problem with a cantrip using the same strategy is that you don't save for half. You save for zero. That drastically impacts the average damage.
@@ChristnThms yeah but it’s also just a cantrip . If your concentration is broken, just cast it again. If your party is already building at least a bit around grapple and drag , it makes sense to use this in fights that don’t really warrant your 2nd level spell slots . Also its proven its effectiveness in the gauntlet run with the monk
@@Spiceodog absolutely correct. Add in that anything worth doing at all, is worth trying to do well. But still, the ceiling is pretty low on a cantrip like this. That said, if somebody can hold concentration while doing something else, who can't concentrate on something better... why no.
@@ChristnThms and with good party comp , it’s effectiveness could be as good as concentrating on a first level spell. It’s not something you’d want to build off of , but something you should definitely consider taking if your building off of something that works the same way
We did a short campaign recently at levels 3 - 5. My stars druid and my friend's twilight cleric relied so heavily on moonbeam and it did so much work! At low levels, and if your AC, and concentration saves are good, it's an amazing spell.
With 3 levels of Swarmkeeper Ranger, you can also move enemy in the Moonbeam with your action with Thornwhip, then immediately out with your Swarm, so the enemy is prepared to be moved in again by your friends. (Swarm also works on spell attacks) Or you can combine Thornwhip + Swarm + telekinetic to move up to 2 enemies up to 30 ft in total to hit more enemies with one spell within 1 turn.
I ran a short campaign for a bunch of wargamers, so there was an expectation for epic combat. At the climax of the first battle, there were on a ship being raided at the same time by two different groups of pirates. One pirate had a plesiosaur that was mounting the side of the ship and threatening to capsize it. Aaaaaaand that’s when I was introduced to moonbeam. Druid got up in the crows nest and cast it on top of the plesiosaur, Goliath Barbarian and loxodon monk took turns ping-pong the thing back and fourth through the beam until it slumped over the side of the boat in 2 turns. It was brutal and amazing. Great spell, 10/10.
Colby's Stars Druid build with a 1 lvl dip in Genie Warlock and Crusher Feat works well with Moonbeam. Cast Moonbeam beside target, bonus action starry archer them and add proficiency bonus damage in bludgeoning (doa genie) which triggers Crusher feat moving them into Moonbeam.
I mean, you're a Druid, what are you doing out of wildshape? Moondruid bear, Custom Lineage for Skill-Expert in athletics, you moonbeam, turn into a bear, go up to them and next turn you grapple and put them in the beam yourself, then you attack or shove them. At level 4 you take Warcaster or Resilient CON, since you're getting hit a lot
I'm only really used to the spell in the context of my Oath of the Ancients Paladin using it out of desperation when she just otherwise wouldn't be able to do anything at extreme ranges or against a flying enemy. If I ever get to play as Druid any time soon, I definitely wanna try some of these shenanigans though.
Very timely as I moonbeamed with an upcast earlier today to put the killing blow on a necromancer big bad. No clever movement today though so learnt a bit from this, thanks.
My party's druid is in love with the spell and uses it to block off exists and entrances and plenty of memorable fights where she would just zigzag it around the battle map to pick off weaker monsters.
I spent the entire of Strahd with moonbeam prepared. The first time we introduce my dm to the werewolf vs moonbeam+thorn whip combo, he was shocked as he thought we’d get wrecked.
I'm still confused about "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" and what that means and doesn't mean. I believe that this specific wording is supposed to be to the advantage of the caster of MoonBeam, in certain situations (it kind of messes with my flow roll for the damage on the creature's turn, instead of my own). I know there is an entry in the Sage Advice Compendium, but I still don't feel like I 100% understand when damage is supposed to occur once, or not at all, or twice, in one round. It seems like you can: Cast Moombeam over a creature Move the Moombeam over a creature as your action for a subsequent turn Move a creature into the Moonbeam, or someone else might move a creature into your Moonbeam A creature might enter and exist the Moonbeam as part of their movement, just passing through A party member might use another spell to keep an enemy trapped inside the area of the Moonbeam (Someone, other than the creature in the Moonbeam, might move the creature in the Moonbeam, out of the Moonbeam (there may be other possibilities that I haven't thought of)
Moonbeam damage occurs when any creature moves into it. And it occurs when a creature starts its turn in it. For example: Moving Moonbeam over a creature would not proc damage bc the beam moved, not the creature, and no one started their turn in it because you started your turn (hopefully not in your own beam),
I used moonbeam to great effect against a shadow creature that took double damage from radiant. It could teleport so all the melee couldn't keep up with it.
If you or party can trip a target (looking at you battle master) that is the cue to cast/direct moonbeam. With a bit of forced movement it all but guarantees a second double set of damage.
What are your thoughts on Moonbeam's "shapechanger" portion, would it give disadvantage to the save of a werewolf who was currently not transformed, would this also impact a changling or someone polymorphed, or even someone with the ability to change shapes like a druid? Wish they used tags for language like this to more clearly convey intent.
There are creatures that are called Shapechanger on their statblock and there are some that have the "change shape" feature. There is no clarification I know off about it, as a DM I tend to include both and let it apply to creatures even if they haven't changed their shape yet (how would I know in character what their true form is anyway).
This spell has worked well for my Twilight Cleric from time to time. We have three melee characters in our party, so I can pinpoint targets while staying out of range. I always upcast it to like level 5'ish. The only thing is that it competes with my other go to Concentration spells like Bless (also clutch for a party like ours) or Spirit Guardians.
Moonbeam is better IMO. More damage, better damage type, and higher mobility. Flaming Sphere only pulls ahead if you have Elemental Adept (Fire), due to it being a bonus action instead of an action to move.
Hey treantmonk. I’m playing a moon Druid who likes to be a steed to the paladin with mounted combatant. Since I don’t have to worry about making concentration checks from being hit because he can direct the attack to him, would it make sense to cast moonbeam , wildshape into a bear or something, and then do the grappling myself ?
@@TreantmonksTemple a mounted creature can only take 3 actions, dash, disengage or dodge, so being mounted means he can’t take the attack action to grapple and being mounted also means he doesn’t get a turn until the one mounting him gets off so he wouldn’t be able to move the spell after casting it, an aura spell would work like Spirit guardians but that’s not on the Druid spell list.
@@AtelierGod that’s incorrect. That’s only if I’m a controlled mount . Which I’m not . Dm ruled that whichever one of us is higher in initiative can willingly drop there initiative down to the others and otherwise act like the find steed spell in terms of initiative and actions available
Only tangentially related, but would love to see a duo build with a wildfire Druid. What character can best combo off the spirit’s teleportations? Polearm master? A push/pull grater combined with spikegrowth?
Funny enough, I'm about to play a 1-shot in 20 minutes with a Circle of Wildfire druid. I plan to use it for extra movement if needed to circumnavigate Spike Growth and then Repelling Blast enemies back into the grater. We also have a barbarian who will work great for grappling enemies and dragging them through the thorns so I'll prioritize getting him where he needs to be.
I use moonbeam constantly on my wildfire druid. Recently upcast it to 4th lvl and did 147 damage in one combat. Its definitely an undertated spell, especially if your team has some forced movement options
Not quite an underrated spell. Nobody plays druids is the reality. It’s widely known as a great spell by druids, if you’re upcasting be careful of couterspells.
@ianweber1990 true. Druids are really underutilized. They are tied with wizard for my favorite class. The 120ft range is great to beat Counterspell with.
I'm currently playing my 3rd Oath of the Ancients paladin and Moonbeam is great. Paladins have very limited options when it comes to AOE and since I tend to play more casting focused characters, Charisma is generally my primary ability score (Dexterity and a finesse weapon, strength is overrated) and the party really appreciates the saving throw bonus.
May have been worth mentioning as a moon Druid you yourself could be the grappler but maybe that’s too much risk to concentration. If you’re multiclassing or have another party member you could stack mind sliver on to the enemy for a bit of damage and increasing the likelihood of failing the con save.
This is solid. I dont allow grappling abuse like this because of ridiculous movement stacking shenanigans etc but i give grappling and moonbeam other slight homebrew benefits as I think they should be a little stronger base so they dont require abuse like grappling them in and out 3 times per turn to score above par.
No abuse allowed, no homebrew needed, its just a decent spell that has the ceiling room to hit above its weight, and ONLY if the party works together which in of itself is good design for a game like DnD.
I just wanted to mention that one time I put a moonbeam over a spiral staircase that the enemies needed to go through in order to reach us. My dm made it very clear that he cares for my pc’s well being, and I should probably find cover. Because these guys very much want me dead.
Grappler strategy is straight up the good old shake'n'bake with wall (or any other continuous AoE, for that matter) damaging spells from older editions.
The action economy is a major issue. Can I use my action to thornwhip the manticore? On my tables if I singe a creature with radiant light, it doesn't just sidestep it. A manticore can fly 50 feet and still attack. I have to use my action to move the beam. All the while Spirit Guardians allows me to make use of my movement for optimization, which can be a boon. With this restriction, I might aswell cast Call Lightning at 3rd level over upcasting Moonbeam to target a better save. If the enemy moves and stays 60 feet away in a dungeon somehow they likely are outside of their darkvision range and attack at disadvantage, while the party can move back and forth. Faerie Fire and Summon Beast are great against flying enemies. TCE summons shine when you make use of the non-highest dpr forms due to their utility. Earthbind is that spell that you kind of want to take, but don't and then bite yourself in the ass when you need it.
The thing to remember there is its a team game and the context matters - that manticore isn't moving very far past the melee build with sentinel, may not want or be able to move far from the beam for its own reasons (perhaps protecting the entrance to its nest, the narrow terrain prevents it from really getting far, or it wants to try and take down that soft looking monk just one step away). Moonbeam is a great spell when used well, and still alright when you do spend every turn moving it - Being D10 can really swing higher on damage with luck while almost never being worse than a similar level spell (most spells are the same number of die at each level cast with some outliers that get smaller die but more of them) - and that get lucky high damage swing tends to put the action economy more in your favour as your opponents die/try to flee, and unlike Spirit Guardians you don't have to be exposed to taking damage in the same way - your concentration isn't likely to be broken. And being on the druid list means for the most part its a spell for druids - and in that case its a really good choice to have as its versatile, low level and reliable enough to be one they should usually prepare, but when you know the situation doesn't call for it you can take something else. If you don't get to switch up your spell list so freely but still could learn Moonbeam maybe it isn't the best choice, but it is still a lower level spell that is not too excessively situational to get results from.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 2d10 is also a firebolt past level 5. If I play with well build martials a faerie fire or bless might be better than moonbeam can ever hope to be.
@@petergriffin9554 True nothing is really one size fits all universal - but as you can hope moonbeam AND firebolt (etc) will both be working on subsequent turns that is more damage - including potentially getting moonbeam damage multiple times in a round with a party full of forced moves. Also as moonbeam doesn't have to be cast at lvl 2 if you have higher slots to spare it does have some significant damage die potential up casting. And at the least you can expect that the moonbeam acts as a bit of area denial - that really great snipers perch a ranged opponent picked already is now not a good idea etc, it doesn't actually have to do any damage at all to be useful if it keeps some of their ranged attackers out of the fight for a while.
Moon beam is excellent for finishing off vampires using misty escape. They save at disadvantage, and if they fail, they revert to their true form with zero movement.
My druid usually used Moonbeam in long battles with weak enemies where it made more sense to turn into a bird and sit there dealing damage. Also, one especially useful fight against all enemies that took double radiant. Was a 5th level moonbeam expensive? Yes. Was 10d10 a round as an action worth it? Also yes.
"On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction." The "in any direction" wording seems vague enough for hijinks. Would this phrasing allow a caster to position a Moonbeam as a horizontal cylindrical effect on a subsequent turn after casting it? Some kind of sustained Kamehameha effect
I wonder how we could optimize for being the helpful party member that enables the interesting combos - even if our own party members haven't thought about them...
Spells that create sustain zones of damage are always better with forced movement... .... The designers saw how powerful this can be that's why most say When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there ... So the grappler cannot do more that one set of moonbeam damage on their turn ... but forced movement could make it suffer one set of damage on every PC's turn, and then another as the monster start's it's turn still in the moonbeam ...
I feel like an idiot. I always thought this spell only effected a single square. Now that I'm rereading the spells description I'm seeing it is a 5ft radius not 5ft square.
I'm about to start playing a wildfire druid and I'm really looking for good spells other than conjure animals. I think I'll try to employ this strategy and the wildfire spirit should help me position my thorn whips better, since they can either come from me or the spirit.
Adept of the black robes lets you roll an hit die to add to a failed save damage. I wonder if there's something there, maybe with the HDs of a moon druid's wildshape
That’s a pretty setting specific material and requires two feats to set up. Also do MD wild shapes get their own hit dice? I think it would just be off their own Druid hit dice. So say a 5th level Druid upcasting moon beam to third level could add 15 damage once, and then 10 damage another time, blowing through all their hit dice. Doesn’t feel like it’s too optimal but an interesting idea.
Correct me if I’m wrong but, doesn’t moonbeam make for a good blasting option similar to fireball? Can’t you move the beam with its 60 feet to make enemies “enter” the beam and take the damage then move to back to the original grappled enemy for more single target damage? I feel like this isn’t how it works considering Chris didn’t mention it here but I’m not sure why.
Almost the same strategies apply to Cloud of Daggers. Using teamwork is always great, and I love that you can make grappling builds really good with these spells.
The party i DMd that had a moonbeam druid had a polearm fighter with sentinel, so if the enemy tried to move out of the moonbeam they would get thwacked, then they couldnt move anyways and would get hit by the moonbeam again.
Ive been in a group where a player uses moon beam exclusively. Its been ruled that it also affects creatures who's space it simply moves through. So when moving the beam they can manage to hit 8 or 9 different enemies at once! My initial gut reaction was "what a broken, weird ruling of the spell" but its not my place to say anything. However the more i think about it, i cant find anywhere in the rules that suggests this isnt how it works, by moving the beam it would pass through their space, and should affect them, it doesnt teleport from place to place. But this seems broken. Is there any rule that actually prevents this? Or does this ruling actually have ground to stand on?
I was wondering the same thing. After reading the spell description again it looks like that would work. You can't move it off a creature and back again multiple times in the same turn though.
Because the beam is moving, and not the creatures. "when a creature enters the spells area" is different than the "spell's area enters a creature's space." Very specific line used in many spells in 5e, they all mean the same thing. Yes it would be broken if you could beam multiple people at range, move them into it with ally's, AND extra damage when they start their turn.
Anti-Druid/ Shapechanger magic. Who else but a druid can shut down another Shapechanger than Moonbeam? I hope 2024 expanses the beauty of this little 2nd level spell for druids.
Look at me thinking: "Wait, Spirit Guardians deals necrotic damage, not radiant..." That aside, the real problem of Moonbeam is that it is th the same spell level of Spike Growth.
My dm has ruled that moonbeam deals damage if I use my action to ram the enemy on my turn, and on the start of their turn they will also take a second roll of moonbeam damage. He also rules that moonbeam affects only one square. I, a level 8 Druid, think moonbeam is cool as shit and I wanna optimize this. Any ideas?
Table to table some of these spells aren't even the same. You got people talking about 5ft square Moonbeam, damage every enemy I move it over moonbeam, automatically works on shapechanger moonbeam, only 1 proc of damage per round moonbeam. We playing with different spells m8
I like this analysis but I think the grapple example is somewhat misleading. Sure, you got more value out of the Moonbeam, but the grappling character did no damage of their own so it’s borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. You should really compare the relative merits of extracting more value from the Moonbeam against what a fighter or barbarian might have done with their action instead.
I'm looking into it, and I'm actually a little shocked to see that there's no easy way to overcome any resistance (or immunity) to radiant damage. Elemental adept gives a large spread of elemental types a way to overcome resistance. Elemental bane also helps with those types. Poisoner helps with Poison resistance. The Death Domain has a feature that allows you to ignore Necrotic resistance. And sorcerer transmuted spell metamagic allows you to change up elemental damage types for another Elemental type. Scribes wizard 2nd level feature is the only thing that comes close, but Moonbeam is not a wizard spell, and the feature requires that the spell be a wizard spell. Unfortunately, no race/Lineage allows you to learn the moonbeam spell, and no background does either. However, the Orzhov Representative background from Ravnica does allow you to add the Spirit Guardians spell to your class spell list, meaning a scribes wizard could cast spirit guardians but have it deal another damage type. The Lorehold Student background from Strixhaven also learns Spirit Guardians in this way.
Radiant is up there with force and magical bludgeoning/slashing/piercing as one of the most reliable damage types in the game (~2% of monsters have resistance or immunity). A feature that grants the ability to bypass resistance/immunity to radiant would be pretty weak as a result - the vast majority of the time it won't do anything, and in the situations where it is relevant, you could've cast something else instead (a build that makes effective use of Moonbeam is also going to be pretty good at using Spike Growth e.g.).
Like Slade said, its redundant to look for "overcome resistance to radiant" plus its overtuned in theory. Radiant is already super reliable, so when you do fight an an enemy with Rad resistance its a check to the balance of the game. Defeats the purpose of res/imm/vul if you can never interact with i.e. never be resisted, never be immune, never be vul.
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I can also imagine a stars Druid using the archer form as a bonus action attack a turn they have to use their action to move the moonbeam.
That's pretty alright, especially if you can get consistent cover, but in most situations I might personally prefer dragon
I did this recently, moonbeam plus constant bonus action lazer arrows is real. My druid was the party's main DPS
I also did this with a level dip into Dao Genie and taking the Crusher Feat so I can use Archer for the bonus action forced movement over telekinetic or using my action to move the Moonbeam, good times
@@geoffbarker5570 thats disgusting, i need to try it
I'm currently playing a Stars druid/life cleric for godly heals, but I never forget that I can just go full blaster if I need to. I've had sessions where my character has done 0 damage over multiple combats but pulled allies up from 0 to full HP more than once, and I've had one session where I was the main DPS despite being in a party with an assassin rogue, a draconic sorcerer and a way of Mercy monk
My favorite part of Monday is Treantmonk.
Awww shucks
I love Moonbeam and of course, it is one of my favourite Druid spells. Druids absolutely deserve the love they're getting on your channel. Although I must confess, my favourite Druid spell is Call Lightning and yes, I am THAT guy that constantly asks their DM if there's a storm brewing or if the thunderstorm is near us. Love that little environmental interaction. Do you think there's a way to optimize that spell?
It's tough because it's not going to be usable at all a lot of time (indoors). Off the top of my head, I would think Tempest Cleric is probably your best route because you can combine call lightning with Thunderbolt Strike to potentially force movement from multiple enemies with no saving throw in addition to the damage (as well as channel divinity for max damage)
@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks! That is along the lines of what I was thinking. The problem for me is whenever I multiclass into cleric, I always end up taking 5 levels for spirit guardians. On a different note, it would be cool if more spells had environmental interactions.
Druidcraft cantrip can allow you to receive weather forecasts, a great way to hash out better Call Lightning usage with your DM.
Call Lightning was my favourite go-to spell for my Storm Sorcerer (with homebrew subclass spell list) in Curse of Strahd, where the DM ruled that the sky was _always_ cloudy enough to be considered a storm unless otherwise specified, and very few battles took place indoors.
The closest I got to optimising it was using Quickened Spell to get two strikes on the first turn, as well as letting me strike and cast a spell on subsequent turns if needed.
Ask your DM to let you use a bonus action 😂
Moonbeam was my big gun spell in the first big fight I ever played in dnd (yes I played a Druid as my first character)
As luck would have it, some of the enemies we fought were shapechangers, so the spell ended up being really effective
Plus I always find the idea of an orbital laser chasing people around hilarious
I like having thunder wave prepared as an option to push enemies into the moonbeam. I find enemies often move towards me rather than away from me, so it’s more useful to push with thunder wave than pull with thorn whip
Thank you Chris. Druids deserve more content creator love!
Got to say I am *STILL* flabbergasted that the Lunar sorcerer didn't get this spell. 🤪
I mean, it's literally in the name of the sorcerer subclass! Definitely an oversight.
that's why we have human DMs
Great points, all. I think the best way to optimize Moonbeam, much like Flaming Sphere, is to use Move Earth to dig a 15ft deep pit (deeper if possible), and cast Moonbeam into the pit, them have your Monk shove enemies into the pit. Enemies in the pit will always start in the Moonbeam, and your Monk can knock them back in. Or anyone with the crusher feat for that matter. Just have them hold their action.
My plan is to make a Swarmkeeper Ranger that uses Shillelagh (Druidic Warrior Fighting Style) w/ Crusher+PAM to move people around the battlefield. Still deciding if I want to go more than 5 levels in Ranger, or multiclass out to something else. Good to know Moonbeam might also be a go spell prep here!
If you are a DM and are concerned about the power level of his strategy, just remember that monsters can grapple, too. Nothing ends a concentration spell quite like grabbing the spellcaster and shoving (or throwing) them into their own damaging spell.
Or just grapple the frontline fighter into the moonbeam. Nobody like friendly fire, except maybe Wizards with Fireballs.
I'm currently running Curse of Strahd, and have a Druid in the party with Moonbeam, and also a Cleric in the party with Spirit Guardians. Between them, Werewolves and Undead drop like flies. They definitely did not need optimization help on this combo, Treantmonk, god dammit. XD
(Additional, there's also a Sun Soul Monk in the party, and in a campaign where Radiant damage really matters, it's surprisingly not awful)
CoS is the only campaign where Sun Soul is not garbage lol. It still isn't good, but doesn't suffer as much due to the reliance on radiant damage.
Crusher magic stone is my favourite way of druid force movement
There was build with Dao Gin Warlock dip and Crusher feat for Circle of Stars druid on d4 channel.
This is perfect timing, my paladin just hit lvl5 last session & got access to Moonbeam
I can't wait to use it. Thanks for the tips!
I always thought it was weird that just standing in the beam dealt less damage than moving into and out of it. Surely, you should take more damage if you stay in the damage area.
By RAW you cannot do the moonbeam damage more than 1x per rd. It’s when they FIRST enter the moonbeam that round OR if they start their turn in the Moonbeam. Not both.
@@bodimoran1040 Feel free to reread the spell at any time. (It's at 0:00 if you can't find it.)
I’ve played a 3rd level Circle of Stars Druid whose main big gun was Moonbeam, and the combination of Moonbeam with either Thunderwave or Thornwhip and the archer form bonus action delivered so much damage for the level
Moonbeam is on the oath of watchers spell list that’s why I have it.
Gotta love the orbital laser
Should mention the interaction between Moonbeam and Evocation Wizard. It's a bit expensive but a potential thing to build around
Ooh, thank you for this! It's a spell I really like but I'm always ambivalent about using/taking it.
Thanks Treantmonk! Great topic- I’ve always found this spell a little confusing
Moon beam also is one of your better options if you're not in a forced movement party but you're in a party that's good at making people not move.
I'm Dming a party with a dnd one ranger with the slow mastery on their long bow, a lance of lethargy warlock, a sorceror with summon shadowspawn and binding ice, and a level 7 oath of conquest paladin. So there's a lot of options that causes an enemy to have zero speed, some are very cheap and sometimes multiple of them require actions to break free of.
If you can reduce a melee exclusive enemies speed to zero at range you shouldn't spend any additional resources on damage. But if you're attacking a ranged enemy or relying on that conquest paladin aura so that they have to be in melee with someone, moon beam will be the play as well... Or is it? Maybe flaming sphere is better cause it hits twice?
Thanks for the video, Chris. Well done.
Optimizing Moonbeam? Can't wait!
Can we talk about create bonfire some time ? It’s essentially the cantrip version of moon beam
+1 !!! Absolutely love Create Bonfire!!!
The main problem with a cantrip using the same strategy is that you don't save for half. You save for zero. That drastically impacts the average damage.
@@ChristnThms yeah but it’s also just a cantrip . If your concentration is broken, just cast it again. If your party is already building at least a bit around grapple and drag , it makes sense to use this in fights that don’t really warrant your 2nd level spell slots . Also its proven its effectiveness in the gauntlet run with the monk
@@Spiceodog absolutely correct. Add in that anything worth doing at all, is worth trying to do well.
But still, the ceiling is pretty low on a cantrip like this. That said, if somebody can hold concentration while doing something else, who can't concentrate on something better... why no.
@@ChristnThms and with good party comp , it’s effectiveness could be as good as concentrating on a first level spell. It’s not something you’d want to build off of , but something you should definitely consider taking if your building off of something that works the same way
We did a short campaign recently at levels 3 - 5. My stars druid and my friend's twilight cleric relied so heavily on moonbeam and it did so much work!
At low levels, and if your AC, and concentration saves are good, it's an amazing spell.
With 3 levels of Swarmkeeper Ranger, you can also move enemy in the Moonbeam with your action with Thornwhip, then immediately out with your Swarm, so the enemy is prepared to be moved in again by your friends. (Swarm also works on spell attacks)
Or you can combine Thornwhip + Swarm + telekinetic to move up to 2 enemies up to 30 ft in total to hit more enemies with one spell within 1 turn.
I love Space Laser! Thanks for the video.
I ran a short campaign for a bunch of wargamers, so there was an expectation for epic combat.
At the climax of the first battle, there were on a ship being raided at the same time by two different groups of pirates. One pirate had a plesiosaur that was mounting the side of the ship and threatening to capsize it. Aaaaaaand that’s when I was introduced to moonbeam. Druid got up in the crows nest and cast it on top of the plesiosaur, Goliath Barbarian and loxodon monk took turns ping-pong the thing back and fourth through the beam until it slumped over the side of the boat in 2 turns. It was brutal and amazing. Great spell, 10/10.
Colby's Stars Druid build with a 1 lvl dip in Genie Warlock and Crusher Feat works well with Moonbeam. Cast Moonbeam beside target, bonus action starry archer them and add proficiency bonus damage in bludgeoning (doa genie) which triggers Crusher feat moving them into Moonbeam.
I mean, you're a Druid, what are you doing out of wildshape? Moondruid bear, Custom Lineage for Skill-Expert in athletics, you moonbeam, turn into a bear, go up to them and next turn you grapple and put them in the beam yourself, then you attack or shove them. At level 4 you take Warcaster or Resilient CON, since you're getting hit a lot
Thank you for your information video
I love videos like this that really analyze the spells.
Hoping for tiny servant or magic mouth soon! 😊
I'm only really used to the spell in the context of my Oath of the Ancients Paladin using it out of desperation when she just otherwise wouldn't be able to do anything at extreme ranges or against a flying enemy. If I ever get to play as Druid any time soon, I definitely wanna try some of these shenanigans though.
Mine has shield master and I may be able to combine them.
Very timely as I moonbeamed with an upcast earlier today to put the killing blow on a necromancer big bad. No clever movement today though so learnt a bit from this, thanks.
My party's druid is in love with the spell and uses it to block off exists and entrances and plenty of memorable fights where she would just zigzag it around the battle map to pick off weaker monsters.
I spent the entire of Strahd with moonbeam prepared. The first time we introduce my dm to the werewolf vs moonbeam+thorn whip combo, he was shocked as he thought we’d get wrecked.
I'm still confused about "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" and what that means and doesn't mean. I believe that this specific wording is supposed to be to the advantage of the caster of MoonBeam, in certain situations (it kind of messes with my flow roll for the damage on the creature's turn, instead of my own).
I know there is an entry in the Sage Advice Compendium, but I still don't feel like I 100% understand when damage is supposed to occur once, or not at all, or twice, in one round.
It seems like you can:
Cast Moombeam over a creature
Move the Moombeam over a creature as your action for a subsequent turn
Move a creature into the Moonbeam, or someone else might move a creature into your Moonbeam
A creature might enter and exist the Moonbeam as part of their movement, just passing through
A party member might use another spell to keep an enemy trapped inside the area of the Moonbeam
(Someone, other than the creature in the Moonbeam, might move the creature in the Moonbeam, out of the Moonbeam
(there may be other possibilities that I haven't thought of)
Moonbeam damage occurs when any creature moves into it. And it occurs when a creature starts its turn in it. For example: Moving Moonbeam over a creature would not proc damage bc the beam moved, not the creature, and no one started their turn in it because you started your turn (hopefully not in your own beam),
I used moonbeam to great effect against a shadow creature that took double damage from radiant. It could teleport so all the melee couldn't keep up with it.
it is a fancy spell, actually a very efficient one, it out shines a lot substained damage spell like call lightning
If you or party can trip a target (looking at you battle master) that is the cue to cast/direct moonbeam. With a bit of forced movement it all but guarantees a second double set of damage.
Awesome vid! Please do a Blink + readied Dash vid
What are your thoughts on Moonbeam's "shapechanger" portion, would it give disadvantage to the save of a werewolf who was currently not transformed, would this also impact a changling or someone polymorphed, or even someone with the ability to change shapes like a druid? Wish they used tags for language like this to more clearly convey intent.
There are creatures that are called Shapechanger on their statblock and there are some that have the "change shape" feature. There is no clarification I know off about it, as a DM I tend to include both and let it apply to creatures even if they haven't changed their shape yet (how would I know in character what their true form is anyway).
This spell has worked well for my Twilight Cleric from time to time. We have three melee characters in our party, so I can pinpoint targets while staying out of range. I always upcast it to like level 5'ish. The only thing is that it competes with my other go to Concentration spells like Bless (also clutch for a party like ours) or Spirit Guardians.
Moonbeam is to druids/twilight clerics what flaming sphere is for wizards, in my opinion.
Moonbeam is better IMO. More damage, better damage type, and higher mobility. Flaming Sphere only pulls ahead if you have Elemental Adept (Fire), due to it being a bonus action instead of an action to move.
Hey treantmonk. I’m playing a moon Druid who likes to be a steed to the paladin with mounted combatant. Since I don’t have to worry about making concentration checks from being hit because he can direct the attack to him, would it make sense to cast moonbeam , wildshape into a bear or something, and then do the grappling myself ?
You could both grapple different enemies, double the fun
@@TreantmonksTemple a mounted creature can only take 3 actions, dash, disengage or dodge, so being mounted means he can’t take the attack action to grapple and being mounted also means he doesn’t get a turn until the one mounting him gets off so he wouldn’t be able to move the spell after casting it, an aura spell would work like Spirit guardians but that’s not on the Druid spell list.
@@AtelierGod that’s incorrect. That’s only if I’m a controlled mount . Which I’m not . Dm ruled that whichever one of us is higher in initiative can willingly drop there initiative down to the others and otherwise act like the find steed spell in terms of initiative and actions available
Neither of us are dedicated grapplers but both have high strength ( at least when I’m wildshaped)
@@AtelierGod Not true. An intelligent creature (normally) cannot be a controlled mount. Only a controlled mount has those limited options.
Only tangentially related, but would love to see a duo build with a wildfire Druid. What character can best combo off the spirit’s teleportations? Polearm master? A push/pull grater combined with spikegrowth?
Funny enough, I'm about to play a 1-shot in 20 minutes with a Circle of Wildfire druid. I plan to use it for extra movement if needed to circumnavigate Spike Growth and then Repelling Blast enemies back into the grater. We also have a barbarian who will work great for grappling enemies and dragging them through the thorns so I'll prioritize getting him where he needs to be.
not me playing the most unoptimized Twilight cleric moonbeaming my enemies to punish them in the name of the moon 😂
I use moonbeam constantly on my wildfire druid. Recently upcast it to 4th lvl and did 147 damage in one combat. Its definitely an undertated spell, especially if your team has some forced movement options
Not quite an underrated spell. Nobody plays druids is the reality. It’s widely known as a great spell by druids, if you’re upcasting be careful of couterspells.
@ianweber1990 true. Druids are really underutilized. They are tied with wizard for my favorite class.
The 120ft range is great to beat Counterspell with.
I'm currently playing my 3rd Oath of the Ancients paladin and Moonbeam is great. Paladins have very limited options when it comes to AOE and since I tend to play more casting focused characters, Charisma is generally my primary ability score (Dexterity and a finesse weapon, strength is overrated) and the party really appreciates the saving throw bonus.
May have been worth mentioning as a moon Druid you yourself could be the grappler but maybe that’s too much risk to concentration.
If you’re multiclassing or have another party member you could stack mind sliver on to the enemy for a bit of damage and increasing the likelihood of failing the con save.
This is solid. I dont allow grappling abuse like this because of ridiculous movement stacking shenanigans etc but i give grappling and moonbeam other slight homebrew benefits as I think they should be a little stronger base so they dont require abuse like grappling them in and out 3 times per turn to score above par.
If the grappler moves the creature in and out 3 times in his turn the creature only takes damage once.
No abuse allowed, no homebrew needed, its just a decent spell that has the ceiling room to hit above its weight, and ONLY if the party works together which in of itself is good design for a game like DnD.
I just wanted to mention that one time I put a moonbeam over a spiral staircase that the enemies needed to go through in order to reach us.
My dm made it very clear that he cares for my pc’s well being, and I should probably find cover. Because these guys very much want me dead.
Grappler strategy is straight up the good old shake'n'bake with wall (or any other continuous AoE, for that matter) damaging spells from older editions.
The action economy is a major issue. Can I use my action to thornwhip the manticore? On my tables if I singe a creature with radiant light, it doesn't just sidestep it. A manticore can fly 50 feet and still attack. I have to use my action to move the beam.
All the while Spirit Guardians allows me to make use of my movement for optimization, which can be a boon. With this restriction, I might aswell cast Call Lightning at 3rd level over upcasting Moonbeam to target a better save. If the enemy moves and stays 60 feet away in a dungeon somehow they likely are outside of their darkvision range and attack at disadvantage, while the party can move back and forth.
Faerie Fire and Summon Beast are great against flying enemies. TCE summons shine when you make use of the non-highest dpr forms due to their utility.
Earthbind is that spell that you kind of want to take, but don't and then bite yourself in the ass when you need it.
The thing to remember there is its a team game and the context matters - that manticore isn't moving very far past the melee build with sentinel, may not want or be able to move far from the beam for its own reasons (perhaps protecting the entrance to its nest, the narrow terrain prevents it from really getting far, or it wants to try and take down that soft looking monk just one step away). Moonbeam is a great spell when used well, and still alright when you do spend every turn moving it - Being D10 can really swing higher on damage with luck while almost never being worse than a similar level spell (most spells are the same number of die at each level cast with some outliers that get smaller die but more of them) - and that get lucky high damage swing tends to put the action economy more in your favour as your opponents die/try to flee, and unlike Spirit Guardians you don't have to be exposed to taking damage in the same way - your concentration isn't likely to be broken.
And being on the druid list means for the most part its a spell for druids - and in that case its a really good choice to have as its versatile, low level and reliable enough to be one they should usually prepare, but when you know the situation doesn't call for it you can take something else. If you don't get to switch up your spell list so freely but still could learn Moonbeam maybe it isn't the best choice, but it is still a lower level spell that is not too excessively situational to get results from.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 2d10 is also a firebolt past level 5.
If I play with well build martials a faerie fire or bless might be better than moonbeam can ever hope to be.
@@petergriffin9554 True nothing is really one size fits all universal - but as you can hope moonbeam AND firebolt (etc) will both be working on subsequent turns that is more damage - including potentially getting moonbeam damage multiple times in a round with a party full of forced moves.
Also as moonbeam doesn't have to be cast at lvl 2 if you have higher slots to spare it does have some significant damage die potential up casting. And at the least you can expect that the moonbeam acts as a bit of area denial - that really great snipers perch a ranged opponent picked already is now not a good idea etc, it doesn't actually have to do any damage at all to be useful if it keeps some of their ranged attackers out of the fight for a while.
How would Moonbeam interact if used on a Wildshaped Druid?
First!
I knew a girl called Moonbeam once. She was definitely optimized! 😂
Moon beam is excellent for finishing off vampires using misty escape. They save at disadvantage, and if they fail, they revert to their true form with zero movement.
My druid usually used Moonbeam in long battles with weak enemies where it made more sense to turn into a bird and sit there dealing damage. Also, one especially useful fight against all enemies that took double radiant. Was a 5th level moonbeam expensive? Yes. Was 10d10 a round as an action worth it? Also yes.
good morning!
Morning!
"On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction."
The "in any direction" wording seems vague enough for hijinks. Would this phrasing allow a caster to position a Moonbeam as a horizontal cylindrical effect on a subsequent turn after casting it? Some kind of sustained Kamehameha effect
I wonder how we could optimize for being the helpful party member that enables the interesting combos - even if our own party members haven't thought about them...
Spells that create sustain zones of damage are always better with forced movement...
.... The designers saw how powerful this can be that's why most say When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there ...
So the grappler cannot do more that one set of moonbeam damage on their turn ... but forced movement could make it suffer one set of damage on every PC's turn, and then another as the monster start's it's turn still in the moonbeam ...
Yes which is why its so powerful. Getting it to proc 2-3 times in a round even without the same on a turn is already really good.
I feel like an idiot. I always thought this spell only effected a single square. Now that I'm rereading the spells description I'm seeing it is a 5ft radius not 5ft square.
I'm about to start playing a wildfire druid and I'm really looking for good spells other than conjure animals.
I think I'll try to employ this strategy and the wildfire spirit should help me position my thorn whips better, since they can either come from me or the spirit.
Adept of the black robes lets you roll an hit die to add to a failed save damage. I wonder if there's something there, maybe with the HDs of a moon druid's wildshape
That’s a pretty setting specific material and requires two feats to set up. Also do MD wild shapes get their own hit dice? I think it would just be off their own Druid hit dice.
So say a 5th level Druid upcasting moon beam to third level could add 15 damage once, and then 10 damage another time, blowing through all their hit dice.
Doesn’t feel like it’s too optimal but an interesting idea.
Correct me if I’m wrong but, doesn’t moonbeam make for a good blasting option similar to fireball?
Can’t you move the beam with its 60 feet to make enemies “enter” the beam and take the damage then move to back to the original grappled enemy for more single target damage?
I feel like this isn’t how it works considering Chris didn’t mention it here but I’m not sure why.
Could a bugbear astral monk be both the hypothetical grappler, and the safe spellcaster concentrating on moonbeam? Very SAD as well.
Would the ability score bonus from Telekinetic boost the DC to 14?
Yes: 15 point buy +2 from custom lineage +1 from telekinetic gets you to 18.
+4 wisdom +2 proficiency +8 base dc = dc 14
Almost the same strategies apply to Cloud of Daggers. Using teamwork is always great, and I love that you can make grappling builds really good with these spells.
The party i DMd that had a moonbeam druid had a polearm fighter with sentinel, so if the enemy tried to move out of the moonbeam they would get thwacked, then they couldnt move anyways and would get hit by the moonbeam again.
Ive been in a group where a player uses moon beam exclusively. Its been ruled that it also affects creatures who's space it simply moves through. So when moving the beam they can manage to hit 8 or 9 different enemies at once!
My initial gut reaction was "what a broken, weird ruling of the spell" but its not my place to say anything.
However the more i think about it, i cant find anywhere in the rules that suggests this isnt how it works, by moving the beam it would pass through their space, and should affect them, it doesnt teleport from place to place.
But this seems broken.
Is there any rule that actually prevents this? Or does this ruling actually have ground to stand on?
I was wondering the same thing. After reading the spell description again it looks like that would work. You can't move it off a creature and back again multiple times in the same turn though.
Because the beam is moving, and not the creatures. "when a creature enters the spells area" is different than the "spell's area enters a creature's space." Very specific line used in many spells in 5e, they all mean the same thing. Yes it would be broken if you could beam multiple people at range, move them into it with ally's, AND extra damage when they start their turn.
hear me out: multiple PC's cast moonbeam, then the grappler just spins in place, swinging the enemy through all of the beams like a radiant blender
does moving the moon bean breaks sanctuary RAW?
I love moonbeam
*sad lunar sorcerer noises*
can you ready the move moonbeam part of the spell?
interesting question, I'd say yes.
Im playing a Druid but i have only cast this once. Ill try it again.
Anti-Druid/ Shapechanger magic.
Who else but a druid can shut down another Shapechanger than Moonbeam?
I hope 2024 expanses the beauty of this little 2nd level spell for druids.
Still can't believe lunar sorcerer doesn't get this spell
Look at me thinking: "Wait, Spirit Guardians deals necrotic damage, not radiant..."
That aside, the real problem of Moonbeam is that it is th the same spell level of Spike Growth.
Yiiiiieeeeeeeww
You’ve been holding out on me for 2 months?!
Just have a wizard levitate the enemy and drop moonbean or cloud of daggers and have carnage
My dm has ruled that moonbeam deals damage if I use my action to ram the enemy on my turn, and on the start of their turn they will also take a second roll of moonbeam damage. He also rules that moonbeam affects only one square. I, a level 8 Druid, think moonbeam is cool as shit and I wanna optimize this. Any ideas?
uhhh you're just playing with a different spell than the rest of us. gg have fun.
Table to table some of these spells aren't even the same. You got people talking about 5ft square Moonbeam, damage every enemy I move it over moonbeam, automatically works on shapechanger moonbeam, only 1 proc of damage per round moonbeam. We playing with different spells m8
I like this analysis but I think the grapple example is somewhat misleading. Sure, you got more value out of the Moonbeam, but the grappling character did no damage of their own so it’s borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. You should really compare the relative merits of extracting more value from the Moonbeam against what a fighter or barbarian might have done with their action instead.
I'm looking into it, and I'm actually a little shocked to see that there's no easy way to overcome any resistance (or immunity) to radiant damage.
Elemental adept gives a large spread of elemental types a way to overcome resistance.
Elemental bane also helps with those types.
Poisoner helps with Poison resistance.
The Death Domain has a feature that allows you to ignore Necrotic resistance.
And sorcerer transmuted spell metamagic allows you to change up elemental damage types for another Elemental type.
Scribes wizard 2nd level feature is the only thing that comes close, but Moonbeam is not a wizard spell, and the feature requires that the spell be a wizard spell.
Unfortunately, no race/Lineage allows you to learn the moonbeam spell, and no background does either. However, the Orzhov Representative background from Ravnica does allow you to add the Spirit Guardians spell to your class spell list, meaning a scribes wizard could cast spirit guardians but have it deal another damage type.
The Lorehold Student background from Strixhaven also learns Spirit Guardians in this way.
Radiant is up there with force and magical bludgeoning/slashing/piercing as one of the most reliable damage types in the game (~2% of monsters have resistance or immunity). A feature that grants the ability to bypass resistance/immunity to radiant would be pretty weak as a result - the vast majority of the time it won't do anything, and in the situations where it is relevant, you could've cast something else instead (a build that makes effective use of Moonbeam is also going to be pretty good at using Spike Growth e.g.).
Like Slade said, its redundant to look for "overcome resistance to radiant" plus its overtuned in theory. Radiant is already super reliable, so when you do fight an an enemy with Rad resistance its a check to the balance of the game. Defeats the purpose of res/imm/vul if you can never interact with i.e. never be resisted, never be immune, never be vul.
Huh
Druid still a suckfest in one D&D?l😂