If you're a creator, below are the resources I mentioned in the video: Blog post news.patreon.com/articles/understanding-apple-requirements-for-patreon Read Patreon’s iOS in-app purchases FAQ support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992151772813-iOS-in-app-purchases-FAQ Read Patreon’s migrating to subscription billing FAQ support.patreon.com/hc/articles/28801582599181-Migrating-to-subscription-billing-FAQ Learn how Patreon’s product support team helps you switch from per-creation to subscription billing support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992352573069-Moving-from-per-creation-to-subscription-billing Learn how to move from 1st-of-the-month to subscription billing support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992332293517-Moving-from-monthly-to-subscription-billing Read about what Patreon is building to support you on subscription billing support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992241435533-Patreon-will-support-with-migration-to-subscription-billing Influence Patreon’s roadmap and submit your feedback support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677
This is not the news I needed to hear on day one of a cottage trip trying to disconnect and spend some time away with the family. I appreciate how hard you guys have worked to stay true to the original vision of allowing creators to connect with, and truly be supported by the core members of their communities. I’ve been a “per thing” creator on Patreon since 2014, and that model has been great for both my motivation to create consistently, and also to feel I’m truly offering value to those that are supporting. The Patreon campaign has remained the largest single support pillar ever since, the start, despite gaining some impressive partnerships from major companies with in the aviation niche. I’m not available this week to be a part of the limited time engagements you guys are offering on discord, etc… but I’d like a one on one call when I’m back after the 18th. Thanks, Steve “Flight Chops” Thorne.
@@Irobert1115HD Exactly. A Progressive Web App (PWA) functions pretty much identically to a native app when done correctly (I've done it correctly at my work) and the user, after clicking "Add to home screen" doesn't even know that it is a PWA. The only apps that require being run natively are apps that require very sophisticated graphics like games.
@@axxa5000I mean from what i can tell, the patreon app isn't an important source of discovery for patreon creators, so why do they not just make a PWA (website that acts like an app)
@@spol You're the minority. The reason is not about importance of apps, it's about being a beta and bending over for Apple. He can throw his hands at the camera 500,000 times, but there is no reason to continue accepting payments in the app. That just rewards Apple for their behavior.
People were so eager to get an apple phone. They thought that they were hip and cool and they were willing to pay huge premium making apple huge and powerful. Surprise, surprise.
Apple phones access RUclips videos directly. That's the same RUclips app as Android with minimal code adjustments. Requiring a specialized Patreon app and a 30% skim to the iOS warlord is just perfect for Apple's GENERATE REVENUE mantra. Google Pixel forever !!
At least in the EU, they can't do that because forcing creators to use their payment system is a "monopoly". I do feel they will be forced to backtrack in the US soon if more people like you continue to get loud. I'm on your side. Too much greed going on.
Apple is still challenging that and making it difficult for creators and developers to build platforms on iOS in EU. Their lawyers are finding loopholes. Apple are dirty corporate bastards. But still, EU doesn't fuck around which gives me hope.
@@ChrisThe1 ------ Bad news for you Chris. The DOJ will lose that case. Nothing Apple does even approaches monopoly. First thing that is measured is market share by units. Apple ships only about 21% of smartphones units in the world. To be a monopoly under US rules they would have to have upwards of 90% for these monopoly restrictions to apply. In the Microsoft case they had about 93% of the market when they lost the monopolist case in the late 90s. The second piece which is a little harder to understand is that Apple is not creating a trust. Trust in the tech world would be a company like Apple buying other smartphone brands to eventually control the overwhelming percent of the market. Apple does not do that anywhere. There you go, now you know why the DOJ will lose.
How about you let us delist ourselves from the iOS app permanently instead? My company makes a game that doesn't support iOS; everyone who plays my game has a different platform they could subscribe through instead. I didn't even know there WAS a Patreon app and I certainly don't want my business model upended because of something that produces no value to me.
Hi @Savinmander, unfortunately, Apple has made clear that if creators on Patreon disable transactions in the iOS app (or turn off iOS billing entirely), we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
boo boo, tomato tomato we do not want this. just pull the app, it is barely functional for anything other than casual viewing I don't want subscription billing. The way I have my business set up works for me and a lot of others, and this forced change is going to uproot what was working just fine for a LOT of people.
Technically, it's not a monopoly. The problem is that Apple and Google are the only two stores, and they basically run by the same rules. They go out of their way to not compete, so everyone else gets screwed either way.
@@Ludix147 They absolutely can do that so long as there are no links directing them to subscribe elsewhere. It can be browsing only, like Spotify, Netflix etc
Just make the patreon website very mobile friendly and feck Apple. Seriously. Not everything needs an app if the website has a very mobile friendly interface.
There is not a single creator or patron who wants this. This video is absolutely disingenuous in painting Patreon as a victim of something it's wanted to do for years. We're being offered no data on iOS app usage to justify the "mandatory" nature of this need, no options, no sign that this has been fought against or even how it could benefit anyone but the bottom liners. Note that both Netflix and Spotify have opted out of offering app purchases, yet Patreon HAS to? Even at the cost of dismantling people's businesses and increasing costs for subscribers? All that Apple's done is give you the perfect excuse to enforce a heavily-opposed business model while shrugging the consequences off as an unfortunate byproduct of someone else's decision.
Hi @aervia we understand this is frustrating news. We’ve heard your feedback and we're committed to addressing creator needs before the required migration next year. We appreciate the feedback around needing more insights around iOS app usage. We can share that the iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon. Our team is closely observing developments regarding Apple's in-app purchase system. While we cannot comment on any other companies, Apple's guidance to us has been extremely clear. All creators comply with their rules or we risk being kicked out of the app store. We wouldn't be making such an abrupt change if there was another choice. Patreon is complying with Apple requirements to ensure that creators still have the iOS app as a revenue source and so that members can enjoy creators’ work in the iOS app. Over the next 16 months, we're going to co-build a better subscription billing experience for creators on the platform based on feedback that we've heard. We know that subscription billing doesn't work for all creators and we have a plan to support creators make the switch. You can read our roadmap here support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992241435533-How-Patreon-will-support-your-migration-to-subscription-billing and submit feedback directly to us here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677 If you have any other questions about these updates, please join our discord channel for creators, we will be hosting a Q&A for 8/12-8/16: discord.gg/patreon
This isn't believable. According to Semrush, 37.39% of your traffic comes from Desktop alone, and 62.61% from mobile. Based on the fact that as of this year there are 3 billion active Android devices vs, 1 billion iPhones, it's statistically impossible that the iOS app accounts for 38% of those visits. And even assuming that were true, the only reason mobile might have the highest traffic is because you force redirects from email post notifications straight through to the app. But there are countless creators polling their patrons in your Discord at the moment and so far the number of people who have processed a pledge through an app is in the single digits. You have the choice to stand with the creators pleading with you to not make things any harder than they've been the last few years, but you're choosing to stick to the narrative that you have no choice because forced acceptance is much easier than trying to PR spin this for a third year in a row.
@@aervia I know. Still, richer people are more likely to support someone on Patreon, because they can afford it. iPhone users are on average richer than android users. People who have no intention to support a creator will not go on patreon. Therefore patreon’s claim is very believable.
This is utterly disgusting. And I'm actually concerned about the *if your content creators don't switch we will still pull your app off* part. I honestly think it's your moral obligation to say no, this isn't fair on anyone, we don't agree with this idea cause this feels like you've rolled over and accepted their threatening and bullying behaviour. All that's gonna happen is people will boycott the app and set up their subscriptions online and not through the appple pay so that Apple doesn't get this ridiculous huge fee. I fully support patreon, not apple in this endeavour. And I will NOT be switching to their new system. Even if I have to actively set my subscriptions through other means.
As a creator on Patreon thats still on the founding tier. This change completely breaks my use case for Patreon in its entirety. I still use the first of the month system because it gives me a nice sheet of everyone that pledged in that month to process. Subscription billing would mean that I need to keep track of who pledged when because the rewards are monthly. The Patreon API still lacks the ability to send a webhook message when a payment is actually completed. If someone changed tiers after paying but before I export the pledges? Yep, I now have no clue what their original tier was. Honestly I'd much rather have the option to not be visible on iOS altogether. 30% + the cut patreon takes is already insanely high and I cant justify shifting that cost on my users either.
This. Such an absolutely idiotic decision on Patreon’s part. I’m leaving their site because this is the final straw in a long series of dumb decisions.
"Honestly I'd much rather have the option to not be visible on iOS altogether" They can still access it via web, if more creators do that, Apple will just speed up users migration to premium Android phones which has been happening for some time now due to its practice.
That percentage is so much that complying seems like a bad idea. It's like being taxed multiple times until there's very little left at the end. There's the Apple fee, the patreon fee and then income taxes. What is the point in the end? To waste your fans money?
Mobile website. Sorry but giving 30% to Apple because you're afraid some people will give up if they can't one-button click to pay from their shitty walled-garden phone is battered spouse logic.
Sad to announce this is the end for me on Patreon, as a creator. So many bad decisions the last few years. Why are you even on iOS to begin with? Literally no creators I know use the app or like it. The app is so limited and so bad, it just seems wasteful submitting yourself to Apple’s greed, and wiping the bill on your creators and their subscribers for a product nobody uses. Wtf. Why not just focus on a better mobile browser version?? And nuking the pay 1st every month as well as pay per product is insane. Patreon gets more and more useless every asinine decision at a time. Patreon was an amazing concept but they keep focusing on the wrong things and I’m fairly sure a lot will migrate to other subscription sites or personal websites.
@@BrightBlueJim It does. Patreon is using this as an excuse to ditch some features they wanted to get rid of anyway, like pay per creation and first of the month billing.
So Apple wants 30% of creators pay? Fight the good fight, we thank you. If there's anyone I would trust to be at the helm dealing with something like this it's a creator that doesn't have a problem putting out a 35 minute video about all of their failures. Legend.
'A creator that doesn't have a problem putting out a 35 minute video' Do me a favor and have a look at the 'about' section of this channel. You are welcome!
Funny how you sound so incredulous about Apple's 30% markup and their strong-arm tactics but you still insist on bending over for it so you can be in the app store. I don't have an Apple phone, I don't care about using Patreon on my phone, and frankly I'm sick of you pushing it so hard in every email with your big "view in app" button that I always click by accident when I just want to view a post *on the website where I signed up in the first place.* Apple does not take money from me and has no right to dictate the means by which I pay for services they contribute nothing to. If you really would rather they keep their nose out of your business, *drop the app.*
@@flox1anyeah I love epic games for that they actually stood up and tried to fight and didn't back down with apples anti consumer practices I hope more companies wake up and fight back, their being screwed every day by apple but probably are scared
What if we don't use iOS at all? Why are people who use every other platform being forced to change? I'm a writer and charging per creation is THE BEST way that makes sense for what I do. At least for me. I don't use the iOS app or care about it at all. I'd be fine if I wasn't on it.
Hi @Silver-Arrow-Stories we recognize this is frustrating news. Apple is requiring us to make these changes in order to remain in the app store for all members and creators. Not complying with Apple requirements would hurt creators’ businesses. This is not how Patreon would do a migration if we didn’t have these constraints and deadlines from Apple. We would not be making such an abrupt change if there were any other choice. We hear your feedback and understand that you may have workflows that become more difficult or break entirely when new members renew their memberships throughout the month. Our team is committed to addressing creator needs before the required migration next year. You can read how we're planning to support your needs on subscription billing here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992241435533-How-Patreon-will-support-your-migration-to-subscription-billing We also have a special form setup to hear your requests and ideas, you can submit them here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677
Perhaps alert new members later this year about the added Apple Store app cost, in our tier benefit descriptions, and let them decide whether or not they would like to pay the extra 30% in processing fees? Since existing members using the Patreon app won’t be affected, wouldn’t this be an easy fix for creators? I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something? What do you think.
@@KrisPNatz I did. 2 problems with that: 1. Creators opting out of iOS could cause Patreon to lose their app in the App Store. 2. It’s not about the creator using iOS or not. It’s about the creator’s fans. They’ll be asked to pay the 30% Apple tax.
@JackConteExtras I'm a creator who uses "per creation" as a way to hold me accountable. I'm neurodivergent and subscription based is out of sight and out of mind. Why can't creators just opt out of being included in the IOS app? Why force creators to go through all this just to bend to Apple's will?
Booooo! This is bullshit. As a long-time supporter of a bunch of artists via Patreon, I am appalled at the decision to eliminate per-creation Patreon contributions. Nobody wants to give 30% of their Patreon contributions to Apple; neither Patrons, like myself, nor the artists we support want this. Why not just remove in-app subscriptions from your iOS app and make them web browser only?!? This would make a lot more sense than screwing over the people who have made their livings through Patreon over the years. Again, this decision is a betrayal of the artists you claim to support! You can do better!! Best regards, -Tom
I’m a small creator using Patreon. This news definitely convinced me to walk away. Prior to this news I had many people tell me they didn’t want “another” login method to support. They’d rather make donations via PayPal. 38% is ridiculous.
They did, and doing so may have played a part in some of the regulation Apple is now facing. But also Epic was thrown out of the App Store and has been banned for ages now. Epic may be able to survive that (probably significant) financial hit, but many creators can’t. I think Patreon sees this as the best way to minimize the damage to creators.
Actually Epic games did sue Apple but lost. The judge in the case declared correctly that Apple is NOT a monopoly. That judge knew how the law worked. Any store in the world earns a commission. Apple was the first to lower that amount to 30% and small companies only pay 15%. For many years other companies were charging 50% or more in commissions. Patreon is a cool company but they've taken advantage of the App Store and haven't paid for it for years. By the way if Epic were selling boxed software in Target or Walmart and placed an ad on the box that people could get discounts by buying directly, those stores would ban Epic in about 10 seconds. They would have to change their boxes or forever be banned. The dude from Epic knows how business works, which is why he signed the contract initially with Apple. He grew the company massively because of the App Store influence. Now he doesn't wanna pay for the client generation? He's banned until he follows the rules.
@@bruxi78230 where is this Apple bootlicking coming from? Apple does not allow other apps to be downloaded on iphones. They are a monopoly for apps on iphones.
Epic fought by raising a high profile stink. (Using pretty crumby tactics imo but raising a stink nonetheless). I think that stink lead more regulators in places like the EU to take a look at the situation and pass new laws. I think they wanted the court case, sure, but they could just sue Apple if that’s all they wanted. Going to the trouble of building their own payment system into Fortnite, and releasing it by bypassing App review is a lot of work. I think they wanted to force Apples hand and make them remove a hugely popular game from the App Store in order to drum up bad press and regulatory attention for Apple. I, personally, don’t love how they did it, but they succeeded at that. Sure, Patreon could try a similar tactic and raise a big stink or even sue. I think they’ve got a better case in the court of popular opinion. But it means Patreon picking a fight with one of the biggest companies in the world and it’s the creators who would suffer the most if they loose and get banned. I can see why they might have gone this way.
Apple's way of demanding this is disgusting! Thank you for explaining. Although, to be honest, it still comfuses me. I do appreciate you trying to find ways to help the artists. Question, does Patreon really need Apple??? I know you mentioned it's a huge part of Patreon but maybe there's a way around it? Sign a petition, let the whole community be vocal about it. Just sad that a company is so greedy messing with creators livelihood. I appreciate your hard work and care for us.
HI @jacquelinevanbierk! The iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon. So completely removing a creator from the iOS app would be detrimental, confusing, and frustrating for fans that are increasingly engaging with creators and their work in the iOS app. Given that the iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon, members expect to consume creator’s work in the iOS app. If a creator didn’t appear in the iOS app, it would be out of line with what members expect and could lead to cancellations and refund requests. Taking a creator fully out of the iOS app would mean that the creator is not discoverable at all in the iOS app. There would be no trace of the creator in the iOS app. None of the creator’s content would be viewable or registered in the iOS app.
@@Patreon everyone knows what Patreon is. You ara a huge platform. You'll survive with a good mobile friendly website. Apple users use iOS Patreon only out of convenience and a habit of downloading apps. I for once would actually appreciate having less apps on my phone and would've preferred a website version instead as long as it's well done. Patreon is not like Instagram or RUclips where you absolutely need a separate app for it. There are ways you can build an amazing website that will be very convenient to use on phones.
@@uofirob this is just not in line with the way most people actually use their phones. I think many will cancel rather than migrate and no amount of insisting that they should just use the website instead is going to change that.
We need to move away from an app based life. Let's go back to websites. I can't properly express my feelings towards apple. I probably can't say it out loud in public without getting stoned.
A lot of the "apps" out there are just mobile websites with the assets preloaded anyway. They load a little faster and run a little smoother, but they're functionally the same.
YOU, NOT APPLE have just completely screwed over creators like me who RELY on the 1st of the month to know our budget and plan each month. We literally barely live month to month. You could simply put a message that the app can't sign up for any creators using 1st of the month. You guys really love playing with our lives by doing things like this and it is so sad. Some of the worst design decisions like the entire website, 'chats' that nobody ever uses in their right mind being the first tab, the fact you cannot even open in the same window a message anymore etc. I hate Apple for their greed. But what you are doing by forcing us off this is just ridiculous.
@@BrightBlueJim They (confirmed in support also) are 'saying' that Apple won't support these subscriptions and that if Patreon don't comply the iOS app will not be allowed. What's pathetic is that Spotify, Substack etc all can redirect the payment to open in a browser, or are allowed to use read only versions on the app. It's an excuse to chuck us all on the subscription model because without someone else to scape goat, the community would be united like it was years ago and they had to reverse from backlash. Next to nobody signs up for iOS so that's why Patreon also use the 'most fan engagement platform' excuse to push it. Some of us have thousands of Patreons and less than 3% are even signed up by iOS. That will be even lower come November.
Thanks for explaining this extortion by Apple in the video, Jack. You did a good job. I cannot in good conscience acquiesce to Apple's extortion, or give 30% of my supporters' hard earned dollars to Apple. That would be a type of fraud in my opinion. My supporters want to support me, and are willing to incur a fee for Patreon's excellent platform. They did not agree to give money to Apple's bullying corporation. Is there a way we creators can choose to have not have ANY donations go through Apple? I realize this may cut into my income, and I don't care. I won't do business with Apple. If Patreon forces me to do business through Apple after this brazen rip-off on Apple's part, I will have to consider leaving Patreon, which I don't want to do. I think you've set up a good platform for us creators, and leaving would make me sad, and seriously damage my income. That being said, I don't do business with bullies or thugs, like Apple. Please let me (and all of us) know, if we can opt out from having any patrons purchase through Apple. Thanks for all your good efforts. This isn't fair to you. Hang in there.
We use iOS only because it's convenient. Make a user friendly mobile version for browsers and people will simply switch to that. Asking Patrons to provide extra 30(!!!)% on top of what they're paying is bs just as asking the creator to give that 30% to Apple. If you truly care about your Creators that is.
Jack I really think you need to rethink this. You cannot give bullies your lunch money. We are 150% behind you telling them to where to go no matter the consequences.
This is a massive betrayal to the creative community and while Apple is not without their fair share of blame, scapegoating them as the reason you're ditching per creation and 1st of the month billing is so transparent and disingenuous. You all tried dropping this model years ago and backtracked in the face of public scrutiny, so this time you've waited for the dust to settle and for a bigger, greedier bad guy to take the heat for you while you steamroll us. Not falling for this ridiculous narrative. This change puts creators like myself at risk of losing half our earnings from the platform, and the proposed strategy for navigating this change pushes the costs onto our supporters. Per creation allows me flexibility to set my own posting schedule without arbitrary external pressure, and it gives patrons the flexibility to cap their monthly pledges. This makes my work accessible to folks of varying income levels internationally. Increasing my prices to reflect a lump sum value of my monthly releases would exclude new members from exercising this sort of financial flexibility, and would scare off even some of my longest-supporting patrons. Patreon has given little assurance of the efficacy of this transition beyond "trust us bro." I have spent four years building a creative business that caters to my needs and now it stands to be undercut because Patreon is letting a third party dictate how it does business. The mobile app you're so willing to throw your creators under the bus for hardly even functions, and nobody benefits from the additional 30% iOS surcharge. All of this so you can kiss Apple's ring? Where is your spine Jack? I have never been so disappointed in Patreon as I am right now. Rectify this or prepare for an exodus of creators who have nothing left to lose in calling your bluff and nothing left to gain by sticking around on this shell of a platform. You backed us into this corner.
This is rubbish you've been trying to push onto subscription billing for ages, leaving Per Creation behind entirely. You're just jumping on an opportunity to force it through without it being 'your fault'. I don't believe for a second that there aren't alternative options. Just let us opt out of appearing on the IOS app.
So true. That annoying “change billing method” or whatever has been stuck on my creator site for a loooong a** time and now it’s being forced. What a friggin joke.
Apple, you're a trillion dollar company. Your marketing was always that you were artist and creator friendly. Think Different, remember that? Now you're putting a boot on the throats of creative people trying to survive and cutting their ability to make money during a period of economic turmoil. Fantastic PR, guys. You should replace the apple logo with a picture of someone pulling a ladder up after themselves.
It's ironic how Apple made a commercial in the 80's about how they were anti-dystopian, and since then they've been largely responsible for creating that dystopia.
How do you think Apple became a trillion dollar company? It was by convincing people that they were the good guys. The underdog. The ones who "get you".
I would love to see Patreon lead a charge of apps that voluntarily leave Apple. So many companies have this same issue with Apple. Apple needs the apps more than the app companies need Apple. Jack please don't hurt your company because silicon valleys biggest bully is getting greedy. Audiences will learn to use Patreon off of their phone.
I am only using the iOS app to get notifications and I believe that 100% of my members are using the web version to access my content. I don't know if it's possible or not but I suggest making the iOS app limited to communication and notifications features and the full Patreon experience will be on the web version.
It just seems like there's a much simpler solution to this, that doesn't mean creators like me now essentially have a date by which this whole creator thing becomes completely unsustainable (November 2025, when the per creation model goes)... ...just get people to sign up by literally any other means than iOS?!
Also, I take it Patreon is going to lower the rate it takes from Apple subscriptions, seeing as you're no longer going to be processing those payments for us? Why should you still get the same cut if you aren't providing the same service? Why is the onus always on creators to sort this mess out?
Ditch the App. You are going to lose so many creator over it as the subscription billing is too complicated for creators who create monthly rewards. For me - I can't see how I can make the subscription model work for my content. Billing on the 1st of the month worked fine for me as I have a release calendar for my art through each month. I can't keep track of different patrons having different billing dates and knowing what they should be receiving.
He said most... early creators are grandfathered into lower fees (I think they started out at 5%)... also there are card processing fees (which are outside of Patreon).
My fee is 4% and then there are credit card fees which are about another 4%. I was an early creator but the actual company only earns 4-8% from you. Another above that goes to credit cards.
@@vdevov Not what they're asking. The question is, can they continue to use their current billing options on the website, and on the app, just not show those options?
In fact, be proactive - tell Apple *we're* pulling the app, because their terms are ridclulous, and Patreon will be better off in the long run without them.
Why are you using this to phase out per creation billing? If The Nerdwriter for example (who I support per video, and doesn't have a specific posting schedule) wants to keep that system... is it that hard to jump to a webpage and finish the billing there?? I like paying per product I support, because on a monthly level I can support less...
Hi @shivadas Apple is requiring us to make these changes in order to remain in the app store for all members and creators. If we don't comply there will be no Patreon app in the Apple store. We are complying with their requirements to ensure that creators still have the iOS app as a revenue source and so that members can enjoy creators’ work in the iOS app. Given that the Patreon iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement on Patreon, this would hurt creators’ businesses and the member experience.
@@Patreon Other companies simply don't allow in app purchases and require users to purchase through their mobile app. Amazon is an example of this and even does this on Android. Charging new subscripters 30% is going to be a disaster and creators certainly aren't going to absorb that cost. You guys are smart, you know this won't work and you must force subscribers to purchase outside the app.
PLEASE focus all of your communications on informing everyone to NOT use the iOS app! Who on earth wants to give Apple a 30% CUT of the goodwill fans provide to support small creators?? It's absolutely ridiculous.
Focus on the mobile website and stop burning money on mobile apps that no one asked for and no one wants. No app, no problem with apple. Patreon's biggest strength was the integration in other services. Now you play the same game as facebook, trying everything to bind us to your eco-system. Stop this and return to really supporting creators. It's ridiculous that you try to blame apple for your own business decisions.
Jack, the number one thing supporters hate is RUclips, Twitch, Apple, etc. taxing what are essentially charitable donations to artistic creators. This is especially true for Patreon if not those other two. They are leaning on our businesses, Patreon and ours, for protection money, and telling you how to run YOUR business. Just leave the app store, and let's all make a stink about it. Supporters will go above and beyond through extra friction to support their favorites, and creators will make sure to tell them why an apple app is a no go. Neither creators or supporters -- is happy paying the 30% tax, and we will be advising them not to support via the phone app unless they just love burning money.
LOL 😂 I didn’t even know there was an app. When I go to a creator’s Patreon it’s on my browser. 😅 I personally don’t use Patreon. I just put up a website with a community and a paywall. That way there are none of these “fees” - Apple, Patreon or otherwise….
People us the iOS App to interact with creators, not to pledge and find new patrons. Let us see the data for the % of new Patrons who signed up through the app? This is not the way Patreon!
After years on patreon, we can't help but feel like this situation with Apple's requirements is reminiscent of Prince John in Robin Hood-adding layers of taxation that make it harder for the people (and creators) to thrive. We hope there might be a way to avoid such a heavy toll on both our patrons and us. Will you be like Robin Hood, or support this nonsense?
I'm a paying supporter of Patreon's creators. I understand that Patreon takes a cut. If I find out that creators are keeping substantially less of my contributions due to corporate greed, I will cease being a paying supporter of Patreon's creators. I'm not here to help a CEO buy a bigger yacht.
Just go to court. Perhaps look into joining with Epic Games, who are in a similar situation. I love Apple but someone must always fight against the Monopoly. We need a legal precedent to protect everyone, and Patreon has pockets deep enough to make it happen.
@@sub-vibes Patreon might not have as much money as Apple, but they have enough to not be vulnerable to the attrition strategy - they can easily survive a lawsuit that drags out for many years.
Nobody asked for the app. Nobody wants the app. You are crippling all your creators and users for the sake of an app nobody wants to use. DISCONTINUE THE APP
You are screwing everyone over because you don't have the balls to stand against apple. The app sucks anyways. Focus on browser and that's it if you care sooo much about the creators and clients.
This is a bad situation for everyone but Apple. I don't like the idea that this all has to happen just for the iOS app (which, even as a creator making $10K/mo., I don't even use), but I understand that having an iOS app is the only way to access a huge portion of the market. You handled it about as well as I think you can. I just worry about this line from the FAQ: "Is the Apple App Store fee recurring? A: Yes. Once the change has taken place, if a fan subscribes to your membership in the iOS app, every recurring subscription will incur the Apple App Store fee." What if that fan cancels and then resubscribes on web? Is Apple still getting a cut forever?
Hi @AnekoFoxx! This resource here has information on how to manage both free and paid memberships on your Patreon as a creator: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/16433886029325-How-free-memberships-can-help-grow-your-community
How about the much easier option of just dropping apple? Do that many subs really come through the ios app to justify fracking over your customers (creators) like this?
I don't understand, when does Patreon pay out to creators when they use "Subscription Billing" if not the first of the month? Whenever the individual people subscribe?
Hi @tyrand, the payout schedule creators does not change! For more detailed information on how subscription billing works for both creators and members, you can check out this resource here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992332293517-How-to-move-from-1st-of-the-month-to-subscription-billing
Just ditch the app. Problem solved. Conversely, you could fight them whilst "screaming your guts out," to "navigate the shifts." Problem solved. Aren't you about community and investing in true fans and about creative people doing what they want to do to "make beautiful things." In your speech, you said, "you could find some other place where you can build that community." Do you want "to achieve Apple's goals" or your goals?
And. If app doesn't offer any subscriptions - basically acting just a window to see what you've ordered that shouldn't be a problem. No apple pay though. I have developed a professional app that requires login to work. You need to pay to get the credentials but the app cannot link or suggest to go to that see that service.
So even if i don't use the ios app as a member (ie I'm an android user), my payment methods will be pushed into the subscription model because of the demands of the app store?
Hi @burntdabruski The App Store Fee only applies to new memberships purchased in the Patreon iOS app starting on November 4, 2024. If you're a current member of a creator or, wish to subscribe as a new member on other platforms (e.g. mobile web, desktop web, or Android) you can continue to interact with your creators' works in the iOS app and will not incur the fee.
Yep! And I 100% will cancel any memberships I have to creators who move to monthly billing but don't create things on a consistent schedule. I'm happy to give "per thing" support to flaky creators but I'm absolutely not going to be paying for months of nothing.
So, if the iOS pricing option is checked, could subscribers save money by not subscribing via iOS? (i.e., subscribe via web and pay $10 / month vs. $14 / month on iOS?)
As a "per creation" creator this is scary. This is all being done because of Apple? How many people actually use the Patreon app? Or better yet, sign up through Apple especially with this ridiculous 30% fee? Why sign up via the web and download the app after? Disable signups through the app. Seems like an easy fix. Have the app tell people to go to the web to sign up. It seems like you're making Apple the enemy (which they are) but using them as an excuse to finally force everyone into monthly billing. Is it really justified if only 7% of new subscribers come from the Apple app? There are other ways around this than forcing everyone into monthly billing. I was looking at buying a house and now have to tell my real estate agent to hold up because I don't know how much this is gonna impact my income.
Patreon was founded in 2013, and (I believe) didn't introduce their app until ten years later, less than a year ago. So for most of Patreon's history, Apple users were fine with using the Patreon website. The app is entirely unnecessary. While Apple's cash grab is outrageous, this feels like a trap which Patreon willingly walked into.
Because in the markets where Apple is popular, carriers subsidize expensive phones. The most popular Android phones in these markets are also north of $1000 Samsung flagships. The budget options are all Chinese which Western markets don't like either. The only non-Chinese, non-Samsung midrange is the Pixel and Google has a reputation for killing products.
Hi @rainbow_mess. Apple is requiring us to comply with their in-app purchase policies or else we risk being removed from the Apple app store. Having the Patreon iOS app removed from the app store would mean that there would be no Patreon iOS app at all, and given that the Patreon iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement on Patreon, this would hurt creators’ businesses and the member experience.
@@Patreon No it isn't. Discord is the number one app for fan engagement. These changes are going to hurt our businesses far more than being off the IOS app store.
@@Patreon I watched the video: I get that. However, at the same time you are blocking some creators from showing up on the iOS app, because they won't be updated to the new billing plans, for up to a year after you push this change through. Why not just make it possible to not be able to be subscribed to in the iOS app at all, so creators can keep the old billing methods if they want? Not every creator needs to be on the iOS app. As a patron I found the prior billing system much better than the one you're switching to, I've cancelled subs on the new system because of it, and it's very disappointing that all of my subs are going to switch to that model because of this change. It makes it much more annoying to keep track of when budgeting.
I found your response in another thread below that basically tackles this: "Apple has made clear that if creators on Patreon disable transactions in the iOS app (or turn off iOS billing entirely), we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store." ... This seems like it can't be true, especially since some creators are going to have that as their setup for up to a year after this deadline ... but it's an answer, I guess.
Given its resources there's a lot of ways Apple could have don'e this better, and it's a betrayal of their technology meets the humanities and art philosophy to say the least. Well done Jack and the Patreon team for putting in so much work to help your community of creators adapt and hopefully continue to thrive.
Damn It! This effin sucks man. Im on Per Creation and have DIE HARD PATRONS who are willing to NOT put a cap on how many they are willing to pay for. I made $2000 in my first month with only 30 Patrons at $9.99 per Creation. How in the heck am I supposed to get that kind of an income on a Subscription Basis?
Apple needs to be smacked down. This is not right. There is SO much wrong about the way Apple throws their weight around on their App Store. There would be a very temporary down side for Patreon, but a PERMANENT loss for Apple, if you were to just ditch that App.
Would it be worth it to create a spinoff website/company specifically for "pay-by-creation" creators? (create-reon or something) I'm sure it's more complicated and a lot less copy/pasting than I think it is to set that up but I'm just wondering if it's a worthwhile business endeavor to have a platform that functions like "old patreon" even if it can't be accessed in ios app stores.
I'm sure there are other solutions, but I think Patreon Corpo would rather go along with the greed than put up a fight. This is why we're being eaten by the rich-we keep telling ourselves there’s no other choice, but that’s just a big fat lie.
Sounds more like they're just trying to be accessible. If more people would rather play in the greedy sandbox because it's easier to find the sand, then we have to play by the sandbox rules. That just makes more sense than trying to re-invent the sandbox and prying everyone away from this platform that they're more comfortable with, that's more fully integrated, and that the majority of us are using already. I just wonder how easy it would be to launch a similar service that is the same as what we have now under a different name for people who would rather continue using it as it is, ios be damned. I feel like the creators that would like that service would be more able to effectively communicate to their dedicated fanbase why they're moving to a different platform that can't be accessed through the app store in service of their customers.
Yeah I just got the message through and immediately looked for backlash and it's literally just your video. This is unnacceptable for both fans and creators. I get the feeling there's about to be a groundswell of negative attention for Apple.
Scummy scummy tactics by Apple, don't they have enough money? Discord recently did the same thing for apps on their platform as well, except they were complete scumbags about it unlike Patreon :(
I think you should ditch the iOS app. As a creator, this is getting too complicated. I may just close my Patreon (small) account. One thing for sure though, I am cancelling the purchase of a new iPad I had planned this year!
Is it more important for creators to have an iOS app or to have power over their income? I mean, that last part is the whole point of Patreon, isn't it?
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
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If you're a creator, below are the resources I mentioned in the video:
Blog post
news.patreon.com/articles/understanding-apple-requirements-for-patreon
Read Patreon’s iOS in-app purchases FAQ
support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992151772813-iOS-in-app-purchases-FAQ
Read Patreon’s migrating to subscription billing FAQ
support.patreon.com/hc/articles/28801582599181-Migrating-to-subscription-billing-FAQ
Learn how Patreon’s product support team helps you switch from per-creation to subscription billing
support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992352573069-Moving-from-per-creation-to-subscription-billing
Learn how to move from 1st-of-the-month to subscription billing
support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992332293517-Moving-from-monthly-to-subscription-billing
Read about what Patreon is building to support you on subscription billing
support.patreon.com/hc/articles/27992241435533-Patreon-will-support-with-migration-to-subscription-billing
Influence Patreon’s roadmap and submit your feedback
support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677
This is not the news I needed to hear on day one of a cottage trip trying to disconnect and spend some time away with the family.
I appreciate how hard you guys have worked to stay true to the original vision of allowing creators to connect with, and truly be supported by the core members of their communities.
I’ve been a “per thing” creator on Patreon since 2014, and that model has been great for both my motivation to create consistently, and also to feel I’m truly offering value to those that are supporting.
The Patreon campaign has remained the largest single support pillar ever since, the start, despite gaining some impressive partnerships from major companies with in the aviation niche.
I’m not available this week to be a part of the limited time engagements you guys are offering on discord, etc… but I’d like a one on one call when I’m back after the 18th.
Thanks, Steve “Flight Chops” Thorne.
Oh my god this suck
Change to using a PWA. Post a URL on your website and people can create an app on their home screen and never know that it isn't a real iOS app.
maybe lets the app go from the apple app store then?
@@Irobert1115HD Exactly. A Progressive Web App (PWA) functions pretty much identically to a native app when done correctly (I've done it correctly at my work) and the user, after clicking "Add to home screen" doesn't even know that it is a PWA. The only apps that require being run natively are apps that require very sophisticated graphics like games.
Just focus on the mobile website. Then we don’t need the app.
I'm on android but I dropped the app.
yes
Yeah fuck swift. Make the site super lean for mobile and let’s get after it.
This. We don’t need an app.
Yes. I 100% agree. Why is Shopify or squarespace have easier to use mobile sites? 🤔
Ditch Apple.
Just drop iOS App entirely, and tell Apple to shove it.
That would destroy not only them but also many of the creators relying on users that use iOS.
@@axxa5000I mean from what i can tell, the patreon app isn't an important source of discovery for patreon creators, so why do they not just make a PWA (website that acts like an app)
As others have said, just screw the app. Nobody actually wants your app, just make your website decent and you're go to go.
He has the data. He knows how important apps are. You don’t. It would be a huge detriment for the company and could entice competition.
@@spol You're the minority. The reason is not about importance of apps, it's about being a beta and bending over for Apple. He can throw his hands at the camera 500,000 times, but there is no reason to continue accepting payments in the app. That just rewards Apple for their behavior.
How the F did we let ourselves be locked in this system of extortion? We need to get back to an open internet!
People were so eager to get an apple phone. They thought that they were hip and cool and they were willing to pay huge premium making apple huge and powerful. Surprise, surprise.
Apple phones access RUclips videos directly. That's the same RUclips app as Android with minimal code adjustments. Requiring a specialized Patreon app and a 30% skim to the iOS warlord is just perfect for Apple's GENERATE REVENUE mantra. Google Pixel forever !!
At least in the EU, they can't do that because forcing creators to use their payment system is a "monopoly". I do feel they will be forced to backtrack in the US soon if more people like you continue to get loud. I'm on your side. Too much greed going on.
the antitrust lawsuit against them is already running; the us department of justice is suing them
@@ChrisThe1 Excellent news!
Apple is still challenging that and making it difficult for creators and developers to build platforms on iOS in EU. Their lawyers are finding loopholes.
Apple are dirty corporate bastards. But still, EU doesn't fuck around which gives me hope.
@@ChrisThe1 ------ Bad news for you Chris. The DOJ will lose that case. Nothing Apple does even approaches monopoly. First thing that is measured is market share by units. Apple ships only about 21% of smartphones units in the world. To be a monopoly under US rules they would have to have upwards of 90% for these monopoly restrictions to apply. In the Microsoft case they had about 93% of the market when they lost the monopolist case in the late 90s.
The second piece which is a little harder to understand is that Apple is not creating a trust. Trust in the tech world would be a company like Apple buying other smartphone brands to eventually control the overwhelming percent of the market. Apple does not do that anywhere. There you go, now you know why the DOJ will lose.
We need a same kind of that "anti monopoly politics" here in South America...
I won't buy anything Apple anytime soon. They are getting greedy as hell.
How about you let us delist ourselves from the iOS app permanently instead? My company makes a game that doesn't support iOS; everyone who plays my game has a different platform they could subscribe through instead. I didn't even know there WAS a Patreon app and I certainly don't want my business model upended because of something that produces no value to me.
Hi @Savinmander, unfortunately, Apple has made clear that if creators on Patreon disable transactions in the iOS app (or turn off iOS billing entirely), we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
@@Patreon So fucking what? You'd "be at risk" meaning you're cowards who will do whatever Apple tells you to do.
@@Patreon But there are free apps without any transactions on the App Store, right? How are they able to make this kind of threat against Patreon?
@@Patreon Please just focus on the website. 🙏
@@Patreon sounds good. Maybe you should do that and sue Apple for monopoly practices.
Outrageous, but unsurprising. Have you thought about dropping the iOS app?
boo boo, tomato tomato
we do not want this.
just pull the app, it is barely functional for anything other than casual viewing
I don't want subscription billing. The way I have my business set up works for me and a lot of others, and this forced change is going to uproot what was working just fine for a LOT of people.
This is what a monopoly looks like and why app stores should be regulated.
Technically, it's not a monopoly. The problem is that Apple and Google are the only two stores, and they basically run by the same rules. They go out of their way to not compete, so everyone else gets screwed either way.
Just remove the option to pledge from the app!
Apparently Apple won't let them do that either.
@@Ludix147 yeah. If they do that, they get removed from the app store.
@@mf-- Then let them get removed from the app store. Patreon has a completely functional website.
@@NoxDefensor i didn't even know there was an app. like what's going on?
@@Ludix147 They absolutely can do that so long as there are no links directing them to subscribe elsewhere. It can be browsing only, like Spotify, Netflix etc
Just get off the app store. We do not need apple. This isn't even going to be happening outside the US
Just make the patreon website very mobile friendly and feck Apple. Seriously. Not everything needs an app if the website has a very mobile friendly interface.
Only Fans doesn’t even have an app! And they are far more successful!!
@dgatan 😮
There is not a single creator or patron who wants this. This video is absolutely disingenuous in painting Patreon as a victim of something it's wanted to do for years. We're being offered no data on iOS app usage to justify the "mandatory" nature of this need, no options, no sign that this has been fought against or even how it could benefit anyone but the bottom liners.
Note that both Netflix and Spotify have opted out of offering app purchases, yet Patreon HAS to? Even at the cost of dismantling people's businesses and increasing costs for subscribers?
All that Apple's done is give you the perfect excuse to enforce a heavily-opposed business model while shrugging the consequences off as an unfortunate byproduct of someone else's decision.
Hi @aervia we understand this is frustrating news. We’ve heard your feedback and we're committed to addressing creator needs before the required migration next year.
We appreciate the feedback around needing more insights around iOS app usage. We can share that the iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon.
Our team is closely observing developments regarding Apple's in-app purchase system. While we cannot comment on any other companies, Apple's guidance to us has been extremely clear. All creators comply with their rules or we risk being kicked out of the app store. We wouldn't be making such an abrupt change if there was another choice. Patreon is complying with Apple requirements to ensure that creators still have the iOS app as a revenue source and so that members can enjoy creators’ work in the iOS app.
Over the next 16 months, we're going to co-build a better subscription billing experience for creators on the platform based on feedback that we've heard. We know that subscription billing doesn't work for all creators and we have a plan to support creators make the switch. You can read our roadmap here support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992241435533-How-Patreon-will-support-your-migration-to-subscription-billing and submit feedback directly to us here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677
If you have any other questions about these updates, please join our discord channel for creators, we will be hosting a Q&A for 8/12-8/16: discord.gg/patreon
This isn't believable. According to Semrush, 37.39% of your traffic comes from Desktop alone, and 62.61% from mobile. Based on the fact that as of this year there are 3 billion active Android devices vs, 1 billion iPhones, it's statistically impossible that the iOS app accounts for 38% of those visits.
And even assuming that were true, the only reason mobile might have the highest traffic is because you force redirects from email post notifications straight through to the app. But there are countless creators polling their patrons in your Discord at the moment and so far the number of people who have processed a pledge through an app is in the single digits.
You have the choice to stand with the creators pleading with you to not make things any harder than they've been the last few years, but you're choosing to stick to the narrative that you have no choice because forced acceptance is much easier than trying to PR spin this for a third year in a row.
@@aervia iPhone users are richer than Android users. That is why this is very well believable.
@@JackFate76 They're talking about usage, not purchases. Also, still statistically impossible.
@@aervia I know. Still, richer people are more likely to support someone on Patreon, because they can afford it. iPhone users are on average richer than android users. People who have no intention to support a creator will not go on patreon. Therefore patreon’s claim is very believable.
This is utterly disgusting. And I'm actually concerned about the *if your content creators don't switch we will still pull your app off* part.
I honestly think it's your moral obligation to say no, this isn't fair on anyone, we don't agree with this idea cause this feels like you've rolled over and accepted their threatening and bullying behaviour.
All that's gonna happen is people will boycott the app and set up their subscriptions online and not through the appple pay so that Apple doesn't get this ridiculous huge fee.
I fully support patreon, not apple in this endeavour. And I will NOT be switching to their new system. Even if I have to actively set my subscriptions through other means.
As a creator on Patreon thats still on the founding tier.
This change completely breaks my use case for Patreon in its entirety.
I still use the first of the month system because it gives me a nice sheet of everyone that pledged in that month to process.
Subscription billing would mean that I need to keep track of who pledged when because the rewards are monthly.
The Patreon API still lacks the ability to send a webhook message when a payment is actually completed.
If someone changed tiers after paying but before I export the pledges? Yep, I now have no clue what their original tier was.
Honestly I'd much rather have the option to not be visible on iOS altogether. 30% + the cut patreon takes is already insanely high and I cant justify shifting that cost on my users either.
Plus, there is the fact that you can not learn who is making an in-app purchase - it is totally hidden by Apple!!!!
This. Such an absolutely idiotic decision on Patreon’s part. I’m leaving their site because this is the final straw in a long series of dumb decisions.
"Honestly I'd much rather have the option to not be visible on iOS altogether"
They can still access it via web, if more creators do that, Apple will just speed up users migration to premium Android phones which has been happening for some time now due to its practice.
Reading all the comments, this is a very savvy community. Respect!
This situation with Apple can't hold. Something's going to give and soon.
That percentage is so much that complying seems like a bad idea. It's like being taxed multiple times until there's very little left at the end. There's the Apple fee, the patreon fee and then income taxes. What is the point in the end? To waste your fans money?
@@BlackthorneSoundandCinema vultures preying on the productive and creative.
@@flox1anreminded me of 48 laws of power
That's right. 30% should be an instant "fuck off".
Mobile website. Sorry but giving 30% to Apple because you're afraid some people will give up if they can't one-button click to pay from their shitty walled-garden phone is battered spouse logic.
Sad to announce this is the end for me on Patreon, as a creator. So many bad decisions the last few years. Why are you even on iOS to begin with? Literally no creators I know use the app or like it. The app is so limited and so bad, it just seems wasteful submitting yourself to Apple’s greed, and wiping the bill on your creators and their subscribers for a product nobody uses. Wtf. Why not just focus on a better mobile browser version??
And nuking the pay 1st every month as well as pay per product is insane. Patreon gets more and more useless every asinine decision at a time.
Patreon was an amazing concept but they keep focusing on the wrong things and I’m fairly sure a lot will migrate to other subscription sites or personal websites.
Do you understand that this does not apply to non-app customers?
@@BrightBlueJim It does. Patreon is using this as an excuse to ditch some features they wanted to get rid of anyway, like pay per creation and first of the month billing.
@@ahs9674 I see. My mistake.
Why does Patreon have an iOS app? There is zero reason for it.
Just drop the ios app
So Apple wants 30% of creators pay? Fight the good fight, we thank you. If there's anyone I would trust to be at the helm dealing with something like this it's a creator that doesn't have a problem putting out a 35 minute video about all of their failures. Legend.
'A creator that doesn't have a problem putting out a 35 minute video' Do me a favor and have a look at the 'about' section of this channel. You are welcome!
@@xbit2011 I'm very familiar with the channel.
@@catalystcomet Then you should know that this is the CEO of Patreon.
Once App Store users figure out that they will pay more there than they do on your website, this will start to turn around.
Funny how you sound so incredulous about Apple's 30% markup and their strong-arm tactics but you still insist on bending over for it so you can be in the app store.
I don't have an Apple phone, I don't care about using Patreon on my phone, and frankly I'm sick of you pushing it so hard in every email with your big "view in app" button that I always click by accident when I just want to view a post *on the website where I signed up in the first place.* Apple does not take money from me and has no right to dictate the means by which I pay for services they contribute nothing to. If you really would rather they keep their nose out of your business, *drop the app.*
That's a big shame. You should just fight apple and make a site-wide announcement to join the fight
@@IgnatRemizov epic games already tried that and got Fortnite banned on the app store. They won’t budge.
@@flox1an maybe they can get people to finally leave the cult of Apple
@@flox1anyeah I love epic games for that they actually stood up and tried to fight and didn't back down with apples anti consumer practices I hope more companies wake up and fight back, their being screwed every day by apple but probably are scared
What if we don't use iOS at all? Why are people who use every other platform being forced to change? I'm a writer and charging per creation is THE BEST way that makes sense for what I do. At least for me. I don't use the iOS app or care about it at all. I'd be fine if I wasn't on it.
Hi @Silver-Arrow-Stories we recognize this is frustrating news. Apple is requiring us to make these changes in order to remain in the app store for all members and creators. Not complying with Apple requirements would hurt creators’ businesses. This is not how Patreon would do a migration if we didn’t have these constraints and deadlines from Apple. We would not be making such an abrupt change if there were any other choice.
We hear your feedback and understand that you may have workflows that become more difficult or break entirely when new members renew their memberships throughout the month. Our team is committed to addressing creator needs before the required migration next year. You can read how we're planning to support your needs on subscription billing here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992241435533-How-Patreon-will-support-your-migration-to-subscription-billing
We also have a special form setup to hear your requests and ideas, you can submit them here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=28810449009677
Your patrons do use the ios app. They’ll be asked to pay Apple’s extortion fee
Perhaps alert new members later this year about the added Apple Store app cost, in our tier benefit descriptions, and let them decide whether or not they would like to pay the extra 30% in processing fees? Since existing members using the Patreon app won’t be affected, wouldn’t this be an easy fix for creators? I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something? What do you think.
@@MarceldeJong read what they said again
@@KrisPNatz I did. 2 problems with that:
1. Creators opting out of iOS could cause Patreon to lose their app in the App Store.
2. It’s not about the creator using iOS or not. It’s about the creator’s fans. They’ll be asked to pay the 30% Apple tax.
Why can't we just say "screw Apple" and go direct to Patreon for all things? After all monopolies like Apple kill innovation.
You can. They just can't point you to the web in the app. It's stupid
Because that would create friction for iOS users to support their favorite creators, so creators would end up with less money.
Let me point out what you are suggesting: you want to take away this monopoly that Apple holds, and hand it over to a different monopoly?
just ditch apple, its disgusting
They can’t, Apple platforms are what makes money. Also this is not new, Apple has been doing this since 2008.
@@iiAhamd advocate for safari browser only on iphone
So if we delete the app and just use safari to enter our Patreon and make posts, we are ok?
@@luckystarpianoknowing apple probably not but idk 😐
@JackConteExtras I'm a creator who uses "per creation" as a way to hold me accountable. I'm neurodivergent and subscription based is out of sight and out of mind. Why can't creators just opt out of being included in the IOS app? Why force creators to go through all this just to bend to Apple's will?
Booooo! This is bullshit.
As a long-time supporter of a bunch of artists via Patreon, I am appalled at the decision to eliminate per-creation Patreon contributions.
Nobody wants to give 30% of their Patreon contributions to Apple; neither Patrons, like myself, nor the artists we support want this.
Why not just remove in-app subscriptions from your iOS app and make them web browser only?!? This would make a lot more sense than screwing over the people who have made their livings through Patreon over the years.
Again, this decision is a betrayal of the artists you claim to support! You can do better!!
Best regards,
-Tom
I’m a small creator using Patreon. This news definitely convinced me to walk away. Prior to this news I had many people tell me they didn’t want “another” login method to support. They’d rather make donations via PayPal. 38% is ridiculous.
Didn't Epic Games just fight this? You need to put your foot down.
They did, and doing so may have played a part in some of the regulation Apple is now facing. But also Epic was thrown out of the App Store and has been banned for ages now. Epic may be able to survive that (probably significant) financial hit, but many creators can’t. I think Patreon sees this as the best way to minimize the damage to creators.
Actually Epic games did sue Apple but lost. The judge in the case declared correctly that Apple is NOT a monopoly. That judge knew how the law worked. Any store in the world earns a commission. Apple was the first to lower that amount to 30% and small companies only pay 15%. For many years other companies were charging 50% or more in commissions. Patreon is a cool company but they've taken advantage of the App Store and haven't paid for it for years.
By the way if Epic were selling boxed software in Target or Walmart and placed an ad on the box that people could get discounts by buying directly, those stores would ban Epic in about 10 seconds. They would have to change their boxes or forever be banned. The dude from Epic knows how business works, which is why he signed the contract initially with Apple. He grew the company massively because of the App Store influence. Now he doesn't wanna pay for the client generation? He's banned until he follows the rules.
@@bruxi78230 where is this Apple bootlicking coming from? Apple does not allow other apps to be downloaded on iphones. They are a monopoly for apps on iphones.
@@bruxi78230 However Apple pays 15% on taxes each year while most people with good incomes pay over 30%. And that is not including state tax.
Epic fought by raising a high profile stink. (Using pretty crumby tactics imo but raising a stink nonetheless). I think that stink lead more regulators in places like the EU to take a look at the situation and pass new laws.
I think they wanted the court case, sure, but they could just sue Apple if that’s all they wanted. Going to the trouble of building their own payment system into Fortnite, and releasing it by bypassing App review is a lot of work. I think they wanted to force Apples hand and make them remove a hugely popular game from the App Store in order to drum up bad press and regulatory attention for Apple. I, personally, don’t love how they did it, but they succeeded at that.
Sure, Patreon could try a similar tactic and raise a big stink or even sue. I think they’ve got a better case in the court of popular opinion. But it means Patreon picking a fight with one of the biggest companies in the world and it’s the creators who would suffer the most if they loose and get banned. I can see why they might have gone this way.
Apple's way of demanding this is disgusting! Thank you for explaining. Although, to be honest, it still comfuses me. I do appreciate you trying to find ways to help the artists. Question, does Patreon really need Apple??? I know you mentioned it's a huge part of Patreon but maybe there's a way around it? Sign a petition, let the whole community be vocal about it. Just sad that a company is so greedy messing with creators livelihood. I appreciate your hard work and care for us.
HI @jacquelinevanbierk! The iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon. So completely removing a creator from the iOS app would be detrimental, confusing, and frustrating for fans that are increasingly engaging with creators and their work in the iOS app. Given that the iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement for Patreon, members expect to consume creator’s work in the iOS app. If a creator didn’t appear in the iOS app, it would be out of line with what members expect and could lead to cancellations and refund requests.
Taking a creator fully out of the iOS app would mean that the creator is not discoverable at all in the iOS app. There would be no trace of the creator in the iOS app. None of the creator’s content would be viewable or registered in the iOS app.
@@Patreon Have the users go to the website instead! Why use a crappy app when you can just use the full functionality on a website?
@@Patreon everyone knows what Patreon is. You ara a huge platform. You'll survive with a good mobile friendly website.
Apple users use iOS Patreon only out of convenience and a habit of downloading apps. I for once would actually appreciate having less apps on my phone and would've preferred a website version instead as long as it's well done.
Patreon is not like Instagram or RUclips where you absolutely need a separate app for it. There are ways you can build an amazing website that will be very convenient to use on phones.
@@uofirob In the welcome message, I tell my Patreon to not use the app cause some videos do not work.
@@uofirob this is just not in line with the way most people actually use their phones. I think many will cancel rather than migrate and no amount of insisting that they should just use the website instead is going to change that.
We need to move away from an app based life. Let's go back to websites. I can't properly express my feelings towards apple. I probably can't say it out loud in public without getting stoned.
This is so true! I hate apps and mostly use Patreon on my computer.
A lot of the "apps" out there are just mobile websites with the assets preloaded anyway. They load a little faster and run a little smoother, but they're functionally the same.
I didn't know it existed so never even downloaded the patreon app. always used the web. how does this change affect web users ?
YOU, NOT APPLE have just completely screwed over creators like me who RELY on the 1st of the month to know our budget and plan each month. We literally barely live month to month. You could simply put a message that the app can't sign up for any creators using 1st of the month. You guys really love playing with our lives by doing things like this and it is so sad. Some of the worst design decisions like the entire website, 'chats' that nobody ever uses in their right mind being the first tab, the fact you cannot even open in the same window a message anymore etc.
I hate Apple for their greed. But what you are doing by forcing us off this is just ridiculous.
this is manipulative and feels like a preconceived motion.. the dude is gonna fold his company if the recession hits.
Am I misunderstanding this? Is Apple saying they can't use these billing models on non-app-store transactions?
@@BrightBlueJim They (confirmed in support also) are 'saying' that Apple won't support these subscriptions and that if Patreon don't comply the iOS app will not be allowed. What's pathetic is that Spotify, Substack etc all can redirect the payment to open in a browser, or are allowed to use read only versions on the app.
It's an excuse to chuck us all on the subscription model because without someone else to scape goat, the community would be united like it was years ago and they had to reverse from backlash. Next to nobody signs up for iOS so that's why Patreon also use the 'most fan engagement platform' excuse to push it. Some of us have thousands of Patreons and less than 3% are even signed up by iOS. That will be even lower come November.
Thanks for explaining this extortion by Apple in the video, Jack. You did a good job. I cannot in good conscience acquiesce to Apple's extortion, or give 30% of my supporters' hard earned dollars to Apple. That would be a type of fraud in my opinion. My supporters want to support me, and are willing to incur a fee for Patreon's excellent platform. They did not agree to give money to Apple's bullying corporation. Is there a way we creators can choose to have not have ANY donations go through Apple? I realize this may cut into my income, and I don't care. I won't do business with Apple. If Patreon forces me to do business through Apple after this brazen rip-off on Apple's part, I will have to consider leaving Patreon, which I don't want to do. I think you've set up a good platform for us creators, and leaving would make me sad, and seriously damage my income. That being said, I don't do business with bullies or thugs, like Apple. Please let me (and all of us) know, if we can opt out from having any patrons purchase through Apple. Thanks for all your good efforts. This isn't fair to you. Hang in there.
We use iOS only because it's convenient. Make a user friendly mobile version for browsers and people will simply switch to that.
Asking Patrons to provide extra 30(!!!)% on top of what they're paying is bs just as asking the creator to give that 30% to Apple.
If you truly care about your Creators that is.
Jack I really think you need to rethink this. You cannot give bullies your lunch money. We are 150% behind you telling them to where to go no matter the consequences.
This is a massive betrayal to the creative community and while Apple is not without their fair share of blame, scapegoating them as the reason you're ditching per creation and 1st of the month billing is so transparent and disingenuous. You all tried dropping this model years ago and backtracked in the face of public scrutiny, so this time you've waited for the dust to settle and for a bigger, greedier bad guy to take the heat for you while you steamroll us. Not falling for this ridiculous narrative.
This change puts creators like myself at risk of losing half our earnings from the platform, and the proposed strategy for navigating this change pushes the costs onto our supporters.
Per creation allows me flexibility to set my own posting schedule without arbitrary external pressure, and it gives patrons the flexibility to cap their monthly pledges. This makes my work accessible to folks of varying income levels internationally. Increasing my prices to reflect a lump sum value of my monthly releases would exclude new members from exercising this sort of financial flexibility, and would scare off even some of my longest-supporting patrons. Patreon has given little assurance of the efficacy of this transition beyond "trust us bro."
I have spent four years building a creative business that caters to my needs and now it stands to be undercut because Patreon is letting a third party dictate how it does business. The mobile app you're so willing to throw your creators under the bus for hardly even functions, and nobody benefits from the additional 30% iOS surcharge.
All of this so you can kiss Apple's ring? Where is your spine Jack? I have never been so disappointed in Patreon as I am right now. Rectify this or prepare for an exodus of creators who have nothing left to lose in calling your bluff and nothing left to gain by sticking around on this shell of a platform. You backed us into this corner.
Thank you. Exactly right … this is infuriating!
This is rubbish you've been trying to push onto subscription billing for ages, leaving Per Creation behind entirely. You're just jumping on an opportunity to force it through without it being 'your fault'. I don't believe for a second that there aren't alternative options. Just let us opt out of appearing on the IOS app.
oh! SNAP!
So true. That annoying “change billing method” or whatever has been stuck on my creator site for a loooong a** time and now it’s being forced. What a friggin joke.
I agree
If Apple removes the app then won't the website just work?
I'm using Patreon for ages and never used an app! F 🍏
Lawsuit. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
I set my Patreon up per creation, I can't continue using Patreon without it. So sad what happened to this once promising platform.
Apple, you're a trillion dollar company. Your marketing was always that you were artist and creator friendly. Think Different, remember that? Now you're putting a boot on the throats of creative people trying to survive and cutting their ability to make money during a period of economic turmoil. Fantastic PR, guys. You should replace the apple logo with a picture of someone pulling a ladder up after themselves.
It's ironic how Apple made a commercial in the 80's about how they were anti-dystopian, and since then they've been largely responsible for creating that dystopia.
How do you think Apple became a trillion dollar company? It was by convincing people that they were the good guys. The underdog. The ones who "get you".
I would love to see Patreon lead a charge of apps that voluntarily leave Apple. So many companies have this same issue with Apple. Apple needs the apps more than the app companies need Apple. Jack please don't hurt your company because silicon valleys biggest bully is getting greedy. Audiences will learn to use Patreon off of their phone.
I am only using the iOS app to get notifications and I believe that 100% of my members are using the web version to access my content.
I don't know if it's possible or not but I suggest making the iOS app limited to communication and notifications features and the full Patreon experience will be on the web version.
What if you buy the Patreon subscription online on the website then download the app?
Hi @ISNLebuna! This only impacts purchases in the app, fans can enjoy their creators' media wherever they wish.
@@Patreonbut aren’t you still forcing the creators to switch to subscription billing anyway?
@@Faded_DaddyOThey have to if they want to offer purchases through the app.
@@prometheus4616ty. Then I see 2 “better” alternatives: 1) remove payment from the app, 2) remove the app and just use the web.
@@prometheus4616 So you are saying that Apple is telling them how they can bill customers on their own website?
Out of interest - what additional features does apple offer for this change?
It just seems like there's a much simpler solution to this, that doesn't mean creators like me now essentially have a date by which this whole creator thing becomes completely unsustainable (November 2025, when the per creation model goes)...
...just get people to sign up by literally any other means than iOS?!
Also, I take it Patreon is going to lower the rate it takes from Apple subscriptions, seeing as you're no longer going to be processing those payments for us? Why should you still get the same cut if you aren't providing the same service? Why is the onus always on creators to sort this mess out?
That’s why I’m confused. Can’t we just instruct people to sign up via the website? 🤔
Ditch the App. You are going to lose so many creator over it as the subscription billing is too complicated for creators who create monthly rewards.
For me - I can't see how I can make the subscription model work for my content. Billing on the 1st of the month worked fine for me as I have a release calendar for my art through each month. I can't keep track of different patrons having different billing dates and knowing what they should be receiving.
Patreon is not 8% fees. It’s almost 15%. $10 sub gets me 8.61.
He said most... early creators are grandfathered into lower fees (I think they started out at 5%)... also there are card processing fees (which are outside of Patreon).
My fee is 4% and then there are credit card fees which are about another 4%. I was an early creator but the actual company only earns 4-8% from you. Another above that goes to credit cards.
Is there any way to keep everything the same just outside of apple?
Apple does not allow redirects to outside payment systems or telling people to leave the app to handle payments.
@@vdevov Not what they're asking. The question is, can they continue to use their current billing options on the website, and on the app, just not show those options?
Let them pull the app, don't give in to apple extortion tactics. I'm flabbergasted people support an atrocious company like them.
In fact, be proactive - tell Apple *we're* pulling the app, because their terms are ridclulous, and Patreon will be better off in the long run without them.
Why are you using this to phase out per creation billing? If The Nerdwriter for example (who I support per video, and doesn't have a specific posting schedule) wants to keep that system... is it that hard to jump to a webpage and finish the billing there?? I like paying per product I support, because on a monthly level I can support less...
Hi @shivadas Apple is requiring us to make these changes in order to remain in the app store for all members and creators. If we don't comply there will be no Patreon app in the Apple store. We are complying with their requirements to ensure that creators still have the iOS app as a revenue source and so that members can enjoy creators’ work in the iOS app. Given that the Patreon iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement on Patreon, this would hurt creators’ businesses and the member experience.
@@Patreon Other companies simply don't allow in app purchases and require users to purchase through their mobile app. Amazon is an example of this and even does this on Android. Charging new subscripters 30% is going to be a disaster and creators certainly aren't going to absorb that cost. You guys are smart, you know this won't work and you must force subscribers to purchase outside the app.
NO NO NO NO NO NO. Drop the iOS app. Have it redirect to a mobile site. DON'T DO THIS TO YOUR CUSTOMERS. Terrible.
PLEASE focus all of your communications on informing everyone to NOT use the iOS app!
Who on earth wants to give Apple a 30% CUT of the goodwill fans provide to support small creators?? It's absolutely ridiculous.
Focus on the mobile website and stop burning money on mobile apps that no one asked for and no one wants. No app, no problem with apple. Patreon's biggest strength was the integration in other services. Now you play the same game as facebook, trying everything to bind us to your eco-system. Stop this and return to really supporting creators. It's ridiculous that you try to blame apple for your own business decisions.
Amen
Preach.
Jack, the number one thing supporters hate is RUclips, Twitch, Apple, etc. taxing what are essentially charitable donations to artistic creators. This is especially true for Patreon if not those other two. They are leaning on our businesses, Patreon and ours, for protection money, and telling you how to run YOUR business. Just leave the app store, and let's all make a stink about it. Supporters will go above and beyond through extra friction to support their favorites, and creators will make sure to tell them why an apple app is a no go. Neither creators or supporters -- is happy paying the 30% tax, and we will be advising them not to support via the phone app unless they just love burning money.
LOL 😂 I didn’t even know there was an app. When I go to a creator’s Patreon it’s on my browser. 😅 I personally don’t use Patreon. I just put up a website with a community and a paywall. That way there are none of these “fees” - Apple, Patreon or otherwise….
This is so convoluted I can't even follow what you're saying. Not to mention the fact that Patreon has a ton of hidden fees, as it is.
dude, your channel is awesome btw.
Remember when Epic was fighting the good fight?
Still are
@@brenolad thought they lost.
People us the iOS App to interact with creators, not to pledge and find new patrons. Let us see the data for the % of new Patrons who signed up through the app? This is not the way Patreon!
After years on patreon, we can't help but feel like this situation with Apple's requirements is reminiscent of Prince John in Robin Hood-adding layers of taxation that make it harder for the people (and creators) to thrive. We hope there might be a way to avoid such a heavy toll on both our patrons and us.
Will you be like Robin Hood, or support this nonsense?
Drop the app or I drop Patreon. This is pure greed.
I'm a paying supporter of Patreon's creators. I understand that Patreon takes a cut. If I find out that creators are keeping substantially less of my contributions due to corporate greed, I will cease being a paying supporter of Patreon's creators. I'm not here to help a CEO buy a bigger yacht.
good ol apple doing apple things
Is there a report that shows which members subscribe via iOS (and which via the Patreon website)?
Just go to court. Perhaps look into joining with Epic Games, who are in a similar situation. I love Apple but someone must always fight against the Monopoly. We need a legal precedent to protect everyone, and Patreon has pockets deep enough to make it happen.
@@sub-vibes Well perhaps they should start a legal defense fund. If they need to raise money, I know a platform...
@@sub-vibes Patreon might not have as much money as Apple, but they have enough to not be vulnerable to the attrition strategy - they can easily survive a lawsuit that drags out for many years.
Nobody asked for the app. Nobody wants the app.
You are crippling all your creators and users for the sake of an app nobody wants to use.
DISCONTINUE THE APP
You are screwing everyone over because you don't have the balls to stand against apple.
The app sucks anyways. Focus on browser and that's it if you care sooo much about the creators and clients.
The app indeed, freaking sucks.
did not even know there was an app and i'm going to keep saying it: cause it just proves that people don't use or care about the fucking app.
This is a bad situation for everyone but Apple. I don't like the idea that this all has to happen just for the iOS app (which, even as a creator making $10K/mo., I don't even use), but I understand that having an iOS app is the only way to access a huge portion of the market. You handled it about as well as I think you can. I just worry about this line from the FAQ: "Is the Apple App Store fee recurring? A: Yes. Once the change has taken place, if a fan subscribes to your membership in the iOS app, every recurring subscription will incur the Apple App Store fee." What if that fan cancels and then resubscribes on web? Is Apple still getting a cut forever?
Can Patreon give creators the option to turn off “free membership” option?
Hi @AnekoFoxx! This resource here has information on how to manage both free and paid memberships on your Patreon as a creator: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/16433886029325-How-free-memberships-can-help-grow-your-community
How about the much easier option of just dropping apple?
Do that many subs really come through the ios app to justify fracking over your customers (creators) like this?
I don't understand, when does Patreon pay out to creators when they use "Subscription Billing" if not the first of the month?
Whenever the individual people subscribe?
Hi @tyrand, the payout schedule creators does not change! For more detailed information on how subscription billing works for both creators and members, you can check out this resource here: support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/27992332293517-How-to-move-from-1st-of-the-month-to-subscription-billing
Just ditch the app. Problem solved. Conversely, you could fight them whilst "screaming your guts out," to "navigate the shifts." Problem solved. Aren't you about community and investing in true fans and about creative people doing what they want to do to "make beautiful things." In your speech, you said, "you could find some other place where you can build that community." Do you want "to achieve Apple's goals" or your goals?
Just ditch the app. It's not very good anyway...
And. If app doesn't offer any subscriptions - basically acting just a window to see what you've ordered that shouldn't be a problem.
No apple pay though.
I have developed a professional app that requires login to work. You need to pay to get the credentials but the app cannot link or suggest to go to that see that service.
Why not make Patreon exclusively a Progressive Web App?
So even if i don't use the ios app as a member (ie I'm an android user), my payment methods will be pushed into the subscription model because of the demands of the app store?
Hi @burntdabruski The App Store Fee only applies to new memberships purchased in the Patreon iOS app starting on November 4, 2024. If you're a current member of a creator or, wish to subscribe as a new member on other platforms (e.g. mobile web, desktop web, or Android) you can continue to interact with your creators' works in the iOS app and will not incur the fee.
@@Patreon He's talking about how those of us on 1st of month and completely rely on it, are being forced into subscription.
Yep! And I 100% will cancel any memberships I have to creators who move to monthly billing but don't create things on a consistent schedule. I'm happy to give "per thing" support to flaky creators but I'm absolutely not going to be paying for months of nothing.
So, if the iOS pricing option is checked, could subscribers save money by not subscribing via iOS? (i.e., subscribe via web and pay $10 / month vs. $14 / month on iOS?)
Hi @SuperAwesomeJared! Apple’s fee only applies to purchases made in the iOS app. Mobile web purchases on an iOS device will not incur the Apple fee.
@@Patreonyet you will still force everyone to switch to subscriptions?
As a "per creation" creator this is scary. This is all being done because of Apple? How many people actually use the Patreon app? Or better yet, sign up through Apple especially with this ridiculous 30% fee? Why sign up via the web and download the app after? Disable signups through the app. Seems like an easy fix. Have the app tell people to go to the web to sign up. It seems like you're making Apple the enemy (which they are) but using them as an excuse to finally force everyone into monthly billing. Is it really justified if only 7% of new subscribers come from the Apple app? There are other ways around this than forcing everyone into monthly billing. I was looking at buying a house and now have to tell my real estate agent to hold up because I don't know how much this is gonna impact my income.
Patreon was founded in 2013, and (I believe) didn't introduce their app until ten years later, less than a year ago. So for most of Patreon's history, Apple users were fine with using the Patreon website. The app is entirely unnecessary. While Apple's cash grab is outrageous, this feels like a trap which Patreon willingly walked into.
In all of the comments down to here from the top, ONE person expressed a preference for using the app.
Why do people keep buying $1000 phones? I've used both android and iPhone extensively and there isn't that much difference l.
Because in the markets where Apple is popular, carriers subsidize expensive phones. The most popular Android phones in these markets are also north of $1000 Samsung flagships.
The budget options are all Chinese which Western markets don't like either.
The only non-Chinese, non-Samsung midrange is the Pixel and Google has a reputation for killing products.
Why is it mandatory for creators to allow subscriptions through iOS?
Hi @rainbow_mess. Apple is requiring us to comply with their in-app purchase policies or else we risk being removed from the Apple app store. Having the Patreon iOS app removed from the app store would mean that there would be no Patreon iOS app at all, and given that the Patreon iOS app is the number one platform for fan engagement on Patreon, this would hurt creators’ businesses and the member experience.
@@Patreon No it isn't. Discord is the number one app for fan engagement. These changes are going to hurt our businesses far more than being off the IOS app store.
@@Patreon I watched the video: I get that. However, at the same time you are blocking some creators from showing up on the iOS app, because they won't be updated to the new billing plans, for up to a year after you push this change through.
Why not just make it possible to not be able to be subscribed to in the iOS app at all, so creators can keep the old billing methods if they want? Not every creator needs to be on the iOS app.
As a patron I found the prior billing system much better than the one you're switching to, I've cancelled subs on the new system because of it, and it's very disappointing that all of my subs are going to switch to that model because of this change. It makes it much more annoying to keep track of when budgeting.
I found your response in another thread below that basically tackles this:
"Apple has made clear that if creators on Patreon disable transactions in the iOS app (or turn off iOS billing entirely), we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store."
... This seems like it can't be true, especially since some creators are going to have that as their setup for up to a year after this deadline ... but it's an answer, I guess.
@@PatreonWe can learn to access in other ways. Let the app go, put on a beret, and let’s give Apple a f’ing rupture!
Given its resources there's a lot of ways Apple could have don'e this better, and it's a betrayal of their technology meets the humanities and art philosophy to say the least. Well done Jack and the Patreon team for putting in so much work to help your community of creators adapt and hopefully continue to thrive.
Apple's only philosophy has and ever will be "make as much money as possible while pretending to be the good guys".
So if people subscribe on the website vs the app, we can avoid the Apple tax?
Damn It! This effin sucks man. Im on Per Creation and have DIE HARD PATRONS who are willing to NOT put a cap on how many they are willing to pay for. I made $2000 in my first month with only 30 Patrons at $9.99 per Creation. How in the heck am I supposed to get that kind of an income on a Subscription Basis?
Apple needs to be smacked down. This is not right. There is SO much wrong about the way Apple throws their weight around on their App Store. There would be a very temporary down side for Patreon, but a PERMANENT loss for Apple, if you were to just ditch that App.
It's better to limit your app, and inform users as to why.
Would it be worth it to create a spinoff website/company specifically for "pay-by-creation" creators? (create-reon or something) I'm sure it's more complicated and a lot less copy/pasting than I think it is to set that up but I'm just wondering if it's a worthwhile business endeavor to have a platform that functions like "old patreon" even if it can't be accessed in ios app stores.
I'm sure there are other solutions, but I think Patreon Corpo would rather go along with the greed than put up a fight. This is why we're being eaten by the rich-we keep telling ourselves there’s no other choice, but that’s just a big fat lie.
Sounds more like they're just trying to be accessible. If more people would rather play in the greedy sandbox because it's easier to find the sand, then we have to play by the sandbox rules. That just makes more sense than trying to re-invent the sandbox and prying everyone away from this platform that they're more comfortable with, that's more fully integrated, and that the majority of us are using already. I just wonder how easy it would be to launch a similar service that is the same as what we have now under a different name for people who would rather continue using it as it is, ios be damned. I feel like the creators that would like that service would be more able to effectively communicate to their dedicated fanbase why they're moving to a different platform that can't be accessed through the app store in service of their customers.
Yeah I just got the message through and immediately looked for backlash and it's literally just your video. This is unnacceptable for both fans and creators. I get the feeling there's about to be a groundswell of negative attention for Apple.
Scummy scummy tactics by Apple, don't they have enough money?
Discord recently did the same thing for apps on their platform as well, except they were complete scumbags about it unlike Patreon :(
Ouch, I wasn't aware of that.
Can you pay online or on Android but only access the app on Apple?
EFF THIS!!! I'm taking my business to ONLY FANS! At least I can do UNLOCKS there which are similar to Per Creation!
I think you should ditch the iOS app. As a creator, this is getting too complicated. I may just close my Patreon (small) account. One thing for sure though, I am cancelling the purchase of a new iPad I had planned this year!
What he can' say is that all patrons should now when telling their audience about their patreon tell them to subscribe on website no in app
.uck yes
That's what I got out of it.
Is it more important for creators to have an iOS app or to have power over their income? I mean, that last part is the whole point of Patreon, isn't it?