Big thanx. I have watched this video 10+ times, directly front of the powerbox and inverter and have done everything according your explanation. Now my Jacuzzi has started working and if my wife is happy...I'm to :D The difference is only that I have a EU 220V system and all the values where 2x.
Yeah! Spent most of today looking to how to ground and off-grid inverter. Most were about grid connected systems. So this one is super clear and the only video that explained why and how to ground an off grid inverter. Highly recommended! Subscribed!
Such a well explained video. Those diagrams are gold. I've just built a 100% off-grid system (i.e. no AC inputs, AC outputs not connected to house wiring) using a 24V 3000VA Victron Pheonix Inverter. I tested my AC inverter voltage (Hot to Neutral, Hot to Ground, Neutral to Ground) and it seems my inverter is bonded internally (tests are reading 240V, 240V and 0V, respectively....I'm in Australia). Thanks to your video I now understand that I DON'T need to bond AC ground and neutral in my consumer panel (i.e. breaker box / distribution panel) as it's already bonded in the Inverter. So here's my silly question for you ----> does the rule "There can only be one (1) ground to neutral bond across the entire electrical system" take into account both the AC and DC side of the system? That is, if I have bonded ground to neutral on the AC side, then does that mean I shouldn't be bonding ground to neutral anywhere on the DC side? And if so, does this logic work in reverse ---> that is, if I a ground to neutral bond on the DC side, then I shouldn't be bonding anywhere on the AC side? Thanks heaps .
What a great video, easy to follow and informative, it’s one thing I was struggling with, I have a all in one and I do not know if it’s bonded, I will test it tomorrow. Thanks again.
Do you have a patreon so we can support! Finally a CLEAR explanation with great visuals! What about grounding solar panels or batteries? My Sun Gold 5kwh wall mount battery has a ground symbol. Is that only if it's outside?
Greatly appreciate the information provided in your video. Couple of issues, for one I think that a ground fault, like in your presentation, will not trip a circuit breaker. Its more likely to blow a fuse, which causes another problem with the unbonded inverters. (I just purchased one and will probably return it given the information you provided). The 120vac receptacles are not grounded despite being three prong type which indicates that they are. The grounding wires to the receptacles are connected to the earth wire tap on the inverter chassis and not the neutral wire. The receptacles can be tested with the resistance and voltage devices you mentioned.
I keep tripping a breaker every time I hook the ground rod wire to the nutral buzzbar and the inverter ground to the neutral buzz in the 220 ac box. Nows it's ground inverter to ground rod and it works now.
Thank you for a clear explanation, we have an all in one Anenji inverter charger which supports parallel function, these inverters automatically do the ground neutral bond internally when using in off grid mode.. Though the question arises when you mentioned only bond in one place, so when having 2 of these inverters in parallel each inverter is now bonded would this still be a problem ? TIA
Thank you for the concise information. What worries me is nearby lightning strikes can enter the inverter through the ground rod. What can be done to make the inverter safe from lightning in this situation?
Some people use a lightning arrestor, like the midnight solar: amzn.to/4cfr6g0 They make them for DC (from solar panels to inverter) as well as AC, so you have to get the correct one for your application.
Realy great videos. Do you have info on grounding your dc batteries when running an inverter system off grid. Am i suposed to or not? and if so do they ground to the same earth as the ac system?
I will have my house both grid connected and off grid at the same time with all curcuits bar one going through a changeover switch. The other circuit will go to the hot water system which will have a separate changeover switch as that will be powered off grid as well most times. That circuit will also go back to the inverter AC in as a buck up supply to charge batteries in case there's no sun for a long time
Great Explanation, I think I set mine up right ?; The Caravan Has a Double pole RCBO (not bonded ) . When plugged into power in a caravan park or my house the bonded RCD part is at the source. I installed a 12 - 240v inverter in the caravan (bonded) and earthed to the chassis. I plug the 240 from the inverter into the caravan IN, when off grid. The output from the inverter is 10Amp, the input to the caravanis 15A, so I have a 10 - 15A conversion with inbuilt RCD (not bonded) because I doubt if the caravan RCBO will trip if there is a fault. Seems to work because the inbuilt RCD trips sometimes when I plug an induction cooker in while already have something else plugged in (common with these cookers I believe..)
I'm only familiar with the grid in the USA, so not sure what you have exactly. Make sure you don't have two bonds at the same time when plugged in to shore power (caravan park) while using inverter. Use a clamp meter and make sure you aren't sending any current on your ground (earth) wire.
This is a problem because using the inverter as your shore power by plugging into the shore power of the caravan, it will attempt to charge the battery… which i believe is the same battery it’s pulling from… you don’t want to charge a battery from the battery you’re trying to charge! You need a transfer switch to eliminate the charger when using the inverter.. or someway to turn off the charger when the inverter is being used.
Hello, thank you very much for your video, it clears some doubts i had with my solar equipment, now all is working perfect. The floating neutral at the output (when the inverter is generating power or off the grid) produce flickering in led lamps, some equipment cases with the "tingling sensation" when touching them and around 70 volts difference between the neutral and ground. After landing the neutral, all the "fringe things" goes away. By the way, I land it at the breakers box "JUST AND ONLY AT THIS POINT" 😅.
So, with a cheapo 2000w inverter, I should ground the inverter only? Great/Best described video I've seen on grounding, I'm just kinda slow. I'm gonna hook it up to a 30a box.
Awesome video. In the video you said, You should not add a neutral ground bond to the standalone inverters. I have a Renogy 2000W inverter that's connected to an earth ground via a ground busbar without being bonded. However, when I test using Greenlee GT-10 tester plugged into the outlets on the inverter it comes back as in open ground fault. As such I would believe that the neutral would need to be bonded to the ground busbar but there is no way to do that which makes this a difficult task if the inverter is off grid connected in a shed which it is, not connected to the house. Interesting dilemma I have.
Some standalone inverters shouldn't be bonded, some are able to be bonded. The forums are full of people saying they burned up their inverter by bonding. Is there anything in the manual about bonding? You might check on some of the solar diy forums and see if anyone else has bonded a Renogy. Or ask Renogy customer support.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Thank you for your reply. Renogy customer support wasn't really that helpful. I'm not sure if they even know if that inverter is bonded or not. They couldn't help me determine what to do for a totally off grid system. I looked on some solar sites in heaven found anyone who actually plugged in a tester to the inverter plugs for an off-grid system showing an open ground fault. Most videos or sites, blogs just plug the inverter up and that's it. They would be surprised to find out that many of them have open ground faults. The manual really does not do a good job in reference to off grid systems that are not connected to house power. It's primarily designed for those with RVs and campers. The manual says the neutral (common) is not bonded to the chassis ground. Therefore, when chassis is connected to ground, the neutral conductor is not grounded. At no point should the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter be grounded. In another paragraph it says… At no point should the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter be bonded. Bonding the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter or connecting the inverter to household or recreational AC distribution wire will damage the inverter and void the warranty. So, for me there appears to be no options. However, I believe the best option for me is to locate an inverter that is internally bonded. With that in mind I started looking at the Wagan EL3808 Pure Line Power Inverter 2000 Watt DC 12V to 110V AC which says in its marketing video that it is NTG bonded, true ground. I suspect that means the only thing left for me to do is connect the ground terminal to my grounding busbar which goes to a grounding rod… Would that be correct?
@@nazarenesect5931 Too bad about the renogy, that seems to be a popular unit. Not familiar with the Wagan inverter. If they already have a N_G bond, yes hook their ground terminal to your grounded busbar, and don't bond Neutral and Ground in your breaker panel... Use separate N and G busbars You should see 120V from L to N, 120V from L to G, and close to 0v from N to G. Also your tester should show no ground faults (it just sees if N and G are bonded)
Thank you for the clear explanation. I have an axpert(clone) 5kw inverter. I was not sure if I may bond n to earth in fear of damaging the inverter output transistors. Currently I have bonded through a 100w incandescent light bulb (resistance just over 500 ohm). Voltage neutral to earth, 0.2v and under load of 3kw, +-5volt. I am aware that over current protection where L touches the grounded chassis will not trip my 20A circuit breaker. but earth leakage detection works as expected. I would love to have schematic of the inverter to see what is going on at the ac output stage. The inverter has dry contacts to be able to operate a bonding relay dynamically, but it does not make logic sense - the dry contact only changes state when battery runs low and it switches over to utility power.
My guess is the dry contact could drive a higher amp relay or contacter that would only bond your circuits when it switches to battery power. When the inverter is powering loads from utility, the relay would disconnect the new bond, and the ciruits would use the bond from the AC in.
Hi. Thanks for the videos. So I currently have 2x mpp solar lv6548 inverters wired to a sub panel in split phase operation. Based on your video, i would have a bond loop as these inverters come with an internal bonding screw.. each having their own screw. As I understand it each inverter provides seperate 120v circuit to each bus bar seperatly in the panel. I will perform these tests to verify. These units also have internal ATS wich as I understand connect and disconnect the bond as needed when switching to grid ac in for bypass or charge. I soon will be connecting the ac in from my main panel to the inverters. Do I need to remove the bonding screw in the 2nd inverter when in off grid mode no ac input on either inverter. There seems to be a catch 22 here. When switching from grid to no grid ac input you cannot very well open the inverter each time to reinstall the screw just cause u need some juice to charge battery. Can you clarify what to do in each senerio keeping in mind that the inverters also switch between off grid and "grid" mode when needed. Do we have a design flaw here.. ty
Yes, it is a mess. They don't document the bonding for different systems either. I manually manage my Growatt. I run it daily, using the internal charger and inverter, but almost never hook the input to the grid. The inverter output goes to a small breaker panel that supplies my car charger, some direct outlets, and one breaker sends power to the transfer switch. I use the transfer switch to manage when the loads in my house are on grid or inverter. The only time I hook the input to the grid is to charge batteries from AC, right before a hurricane if batteries are low. While doing that I'm not running any loads on the transfer switch.
hello... thanks you very much for great video...I have a question How would the grounds be connected in an off grid system? I use a backup inverter generator to charge the batteries ..I am interested in knowing how the ground should be connected. Have a nice day regards from Patagonia Chile.
test your generator and inverter with a meter to see if either is bonded. If neither are bonded, bond G-N at a breaker box after the inverter, and add a ground wire to earth grounding rod. If either generator or inverter is bonded, it is tricky. test everything with a meter first...
I learnt a lot here. Thank you. One question. Does the earth spike connected to the main breaker box also works if the power utlity goes down and the inverter is in off-grid mode with a dynamic bonding or the Inverter needs it's own earth spike?
In the USA the neutral-ground bond and wire feeding the grounding rod are in the main panel after the meter. These work even when the power is down. In other countries the ground may be different.
Thanks for the tutorial, it was really easy to understand. I have a question: should I connect the AC ground from the consumer unit (breaker panel) to a new, separate earth rod, or should I bond it to a DC earth busbar rod and have only one earth/ground rod in the system? Thanks.
In North America, typically you would want one ground rod. It may be different in other regions. Is your breaker panel or inverter fed by the grid, or are you off-grid?
@@JHubnerProductions it depends on what your inverter manufacturer recommends for the DC system ground. The AC side earth (ground) rod is sometimes combined with DC, sometimes it is a separate earth ground rod.
NICE...So what protection does a stand alone inverter or a solar generator, or gas generator offer...Providing they don't come with a built in circuit breaker, Are there Fuses in case of a ground fault or short circuit ???
Some inverters and generators have a breaker or fuse. It's a good idea to always have external breakers between the inverter and battery, inverter and AC loads, and inverter and solar panels. Many people just use disconnects on the PV panels.
Hi, I really enjoyed your videos. What type of junction box did you use to extend the wiring from the flush-mounted sub-panel to the transfer switch? I need to do the same thing for my transfer switch. Thanks.
I used a standard junction box (for a switch or outlet) from Home Depot or Lowes. It's facing backwards and mounted on the wall to give me a place to connect the metal flexable conduit. If I remember correctly, the conduit came with the transfer switch.
Wonderful video. I am still trying to understand correctly. Based on an Off Grid only, Single all in one outputting to Main breaker box (no sub panels) If the all in one IS bonded, then the breaker box does NOT he bonded.. If the all in one is floating, then bonding at the box is necessary.. Am I getting this right?
i want to install ac spd after earthing nutrual bounding in main db box can i install ac spd after bounding and took earthing wire from grounding wire and insert in ac spd earthing point is it okay ? will ac spd will work and ground extra spikes/extra volts from grid (live/natural ) if we do natural and grounding bounding at main db box?
One thing I could not pick up at the end. If you have an inverter that is not dezigned to be bonded..... the ones you say should never be bonded..... I presume you simply do not connect the ground from the inverter to the house breaker panel..... But do bond ground and neutral at the house breaker panel so the earth leakage safety breakers trip. I happen to be getting a 6000 watt (continuous rate) inverter. I am not sure it is bondable - although it does have a terminal block output.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Oh. unfortunately, I cannot just plug appliances into the AC outlets. I currently have an off grid system that has been running my house for 15 years. The power shed is outside my house. I have 1000 AH 48v battery bank with Selectronic inverter - 48v to 240v - 3000 watt continuous, 6000watt 30 second rate, and 10,000Watt surge. This is connected to my main distribution breaker box incuding the earth wire. All my sub boards run the ground wire back to the main breaker box where the earth buss there is connected to a copper ground spike. All the sub boards have correctly wired earth safety breakers - all tested and functioning correctly. Basically, the house is wired as if connected to the grid, but actually connected to the inverter. The rating of the inverter must be correct because we often run 12 amps and sometimes 18 amps (4300 watts) without any fault. I was considering buying a standby inverter in the event of the old inverter breaking down. The cost of known brands is up into the $2000 range. The CNSWIPOWER inverter that I was considering has a 6000watt continuous rating. (I have watched reviews that demonstrate 6000watt capability.) This inverter had L G. N terminals on the front which are apparently for connecting to some permanent load. Can you tell me why you believe that this inverter should not be connected to my house as a replacement for my existing inverter? cheers.
@@alanbeasy1775 In the video, I was referring to numerous inverters mentioned in DIY solar forums, where they literally fry the inverter by bonding. I'm not familiar with CNSWIPOWER, so I don't know if it falls in the "don't bond" catergory. It may well be OK to bond. In the reviews you watched, had anyone bonded that inverter? Hopefully it will work for you.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Thanks. I have decided not to risk it. As it turns out the Victron Multi-plus Inverter charger 48/230 - 5000w is on special at $1645 at the moment. I might as well pay the extra $750 and get a more bullet proof solution with all the top features. (Usually over $3000). That should see me through the next 15 years and I will service my existing unit to have on standby. Thanks again.
I've heard of lightening coming through an Earth ground and destroying electronics, from lightening strikes..Is unplugging the solar panels from your system during storms, an option to an Earth ground..That might be a difficult question...
Thats an option, I have DC breakers near the panels (in combiner boxes) and each array goes through breakers near the inground fault verter. I turn the breakers off during storms if I'm here. There are lightning surge protectors and ground fault breakers available as well.
I have a question on solar trackers and combiner boxes? I installed my 4 string combiner box on 1 of my 2 solar trackers. I ran a ground rod straight to earth at that point and it is connected to the PV combiner box. Would this be considered my only earth ground needed for my entire DC off grid system? I have a eco-worthy 48volt all-in-one inverter which i feed to a breaker panel for my cabin.
I'm not familiar with eco-worthy. It depends on the manufacturer's recommendation. Some manufacturer's don't want either pos or neg DC to be grounded, some require one or the other. Also, it is common to ground the frames (not the cables) of the panels and metal combiner boxes.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Not just common...required. I have 6 panels in series producing 400 volts. A PV panel wire short would energize all the panels as they are bonded to each other.
Not familiar with giandel 3000w... If you're referring to the AC output, you would output about 30 amps at 120v. For short runs 10awg should be ok, but I would use 8awg. I'm not an electrician, so you may want to consult one.
Question: I have a Quattro 5048 V 70 inverter. Mine was programmed to be off grid. My problem is, I was told that the AC out goes to the interconnect switch on the main panel. With two 50 amp breakers. So that means it’s bonded at the panel? But then I was told on the equipment side, I needed to have a ground bar outside for the DC side? This means that all the charge controllers and the inverter are going to a ground bus bar, and that is wired to an outside lightning rod. So that means I have two grounding points, one for the AC side, and one for the DC side? I’m told this is only for off grid, and that on grid would be bonded at the main panel only. Is this right or am I missing something? Thanks 🖖
Sorry, but I'm not sure. I have some Victron chargers, but I have never used one of their inverters. I would try Victron support to be sure! www.victronenergy.com/support
Philippines so very unlikely to get a quick fix. I believe the system used here is neutral is grounded every 5 posts, as it happens the ground wire is on this post, however there is an additional neutral to ground by utility by mistake. Should I disable the ground neutral bond in the inverter
@@martinrodulfo5963 Yes, these videos only apply to North America, where we bond N_G at the main panel in the house. It might be possible to use a transfer switch that switches neutral and line (DPST or DPDT) to switch circuits between grid and inverter. Or depending on your needs, you could keep the inverter and an inverter powered breaker panel completely "off-grid" for critical circuits.
I’ve got an EG4 3k inverter and battery that I tried to use for someone with no grid power due to a storm. Operating it in battery mode, I saw the same voltages as an unbounded neutral ground inside the inverter. When I ran it with a receptacle tester, it said I had an open neutral and was blinking. I tried plugging a newer Whirlpool refrigerator into it and it did not run. I plugged a lamp and/or a fan in the receptacle and they ran and the refrigerator then ran as long as either the light or the fan was running. Can I create a neutral ground bond in the receptacle. Is that a safer way to operate? FYI, I think the bonding screw was not put in the inverter in this version. If I were to plug in an AC in into the house receptacle, even though the circuit is dead, would it create a neutral ground bond?
The safest way is to add a small breaker panel on the output of the inverter, and bond the breaker panel neutral and ground. Don't feed the AC input of the inverter from house wiring, or you have two bonds when the grid power comes back on, if the inverter's internal transfer switch goes back to grid. If you are just using it during blackouts as a temporary generator, you can run the system without a ground. That may be against code in your area. If you want to use it even when the grid is up, use a transfer switch so you are using the bond in your main panel. See ruclips.net/video/PFeA-5A_pmc/видео.html
I have an eco-worthy 24v 3000w hybrid inverter and I’m getting 90v on line and 30v on neutral. Is it safe to assume I have a floating neutral and will be fine to bond ground and neutral in AC panel? I wasn’t expecting such a large difference from your testing.
I haven't used an eco-worthy, so I'm not sure why the voltages look like that. Maybe you can find someone on RUclips or in solar forums that has connected an eco-worthy to the grid.
Those are odd voltages. By "90v on line and 30v on neutral" are you measuring line-to-ground and neutral-to-ground? What voltage do you get line -to-neutral?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC yes I’m measuring each to the ground screw on the case, I don’t have an actual earth ground connected yet. Line and neutral together is 120v.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC I ended up bonding ground and neutral in my AC breaker panel and voltages are now reporting correctly. No more open ground and can trip gfi with tester. Leaving this info here in case anyone gets the same eco-worthy 3000watt 24v hybrid inverter charge controller and is struggling to find this info for theirs. Eco-worthy support was zero help. I am not using AC in, this is purely off grid.
If you mean the ground rod, you should have one. They don't protect you from shorts or faults, but they dissipate static charges and help normalize the case grounds to zero. Neutral-ground bonding creates a return path for a ground fault, so it can trip a breaker.
I don’t know if anybody has done this and what the best way about going about it. I have an off grid eg4 with batteries and solar panels in my detached garage. The inverters can be internally bonded or I can bond in the load center. No AC in or generator. My question is rarely during a power outage, I can hook up the inverters to my house wiring to run the house as if it was a “generator “(I would make sure the utility breaker is off). If I had the neutral bond engaged in the inverter and it’s connected to the house breaker box which has a legit earth ground, would that be an issue? Or would it be safer to leave the neutral bond off and run a ground from the inverter subpanel to the houses earth ground (which would solve me burying a rod and protect the system in case I power the house)?
It depends on the EG-4 model. The newer models like the 6000XP allow the neutral and ground from the AC input to share the existing bond. It sounds like you have one of the older models where you can add or remove an internal screw to bond/unbond. You only want one bond in your system, so you have to add the bonding screw when not hooked to the grid In, and remove the screw when running AC in for charging. A bit of a pain...
Maybe you can help explain the following case because I am struggling to get answers online.. So I am an automation electrical engineer (some electrical background) but I do recognize earthing/grounding etc seems to be a topic a lot of people get wrong.. So There is a friend who owns a farm which does not have a utility infrastructure. So he currently entirely runs the house on a 3kw diesel generator. I will be helping him to connect a 5Kw solar system with a Lithium battery of 5kwh capacity. I will be attempting to wire the Generator to the inverter AC input as a means to charge the batteries when the weather did not permit for a battery charge. The inverter is always started manually. I know the Generator is a little bit too small for the inverter but I will see if it is at all possible to limit the charging current to the batteries which would then potentially help the inverter not too draw too much power from the generator and trip the generator. My main question to you is as follow: So there will be two(2) power sources. The inverter would be the main source and the generator will be a backup, but the generator will be connected to the inverter AC input. THis means that the home may be powerd by the generator but it will come through the Inverter. Which source needs to be bonded here..?? Do I bond only the inverter and keep the Generator on a floating neutral?
I'm not an electrician or an electrical engineer, so you may want to check with an electrician. I would bond at the breaker box AFTER the output of the inverter. Make sure the inverter and generator are NOT bonded. I would also run a ground wire to a grounding rod at this same panel. Measure voltage between neutral and ground at the output of the inverter, and check for continuity between ground and neutral ...see video 2 on bonding and grounding for offgrid. Most inverters will let you limit the "utility" charging current (generator in this case), and overall charging current (generator and solar).
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Okay so am I correct when saying that when you touch your toaster's chassis that it would be the same as touching the neutral wire as the neutral and earth is bonded somewhere(only once) and the earth/ground wire is normally connected to an appliance's chassis? Thats basic question no.1 then for no.2 I will be using a setup like this offgrid inverter which will then feed into a neutral transfer switch. the other source would be an old Lister diesel generator which has no circuit protection. I would then only make the ground to neutral bond after the changeover of these two power sources. each of the power sources (inverter & generator) would have a ground wire coming in towards the transfer switch but they would be unbonded which would mean that these ground wires would only be connected to the chassis of the relavent power source.. So then these two ground wires would be connected together on a bus bar and at this bus bar I would connect a ground rod going 2meters into the ground with a copper electrode and a 10mm2 ground wire. after the Transfer switch I would fee the L N and E wire into the home's main DB. Does this sound like standard practice from where you are in the u.s? The electricians I know still don't know really how earth/grounding works. They all still think an electrode into the ground makes everything safe..
@@franchosis Hi! Question 1: Touching the toaster's chassis is NOT the same as touching the NEUTRAL, even though the ground (earth) wire from the toaster eventually bonds with the neutral. The ground wire does not ordinarily carry current, the neural does. The ground wire only carries current in a ground fault, which causes the breaker to trip and shut down the circuit. I am not sure what you mean by neutral transfer switch. Is this a double pole switch that is switching Line and Neutral? Or a single pole switch that is switching only Line? Yes, the ground wire from the generator and the inverter both connect at the breaker panel. Just to be sure I understand, there is NO connection to the grid at all, correct?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC - Thank you for responding. I understand that current flows between L and N but because the ground wire is bonded to N there will be a voltage potential on the toaster chassis. So if you take your multimeter and measure voltage between toaster chassis and neutral you will measure 0v but between L1 and the toaster Chassis you will measure the same Voltage potential as between Neutral and L1.. Current can only flow in a "closed circuit" So for example if you made another ground neutral bond at the toaster then you would have a ground loop and then you will have current flowing from the toaster back to source on the neutral and the ground wire.. THis would be dangerous. So am I correct in this understanding? There is a voltage potential on the toaster chassis ? ALthough it is not dangerous at all as there is no current flow path. In my situation a neutral transfer switch is a transfer switch that switches both the phase and the neutral..correct. a standard transfer switch only switches the L1. So yes to your question - There is no utility grid infrastructure on this farm house. It is absolutely reliant on a generator and now inverter that has been coupled.. I am just understanding grounding and earthing more in depth so I can make it as safe as possible
@@franchosis As for the chassis and grounding for the toaster... Yes, if you measure between the chassis (ground) and Line there will be voltage. The chassis offers an alternative return path for the line to "return to source", the source being the neutral. But by itself, the chassis is not dangerous. Every metal appliance and electrical box also has this. A neutral transfer switch is typically used when two different power sources are BOTH bonded. Such as a bonded generator and the grid. If 1. the generator is not bonded, and 2. the inverter is not bonded, 3. and you bond at the breaker box after the inverter... then you may not even need a transfer switch. The all in one inverter may have a transfer switch (relays) built in. What is the make and model of the inverter?
It is worth knowing that there is not one way of doing it different inverters need doing differently so this video is great but take it as a recommendation not how to do your own research based on what inverter you have
I purchased an inverter that cannot be bonded. I bonded it and it smoked. What should I do? Manufacturer mentions it on their instructions, do not connect neutral to ground wire.
I am left with a question: Is it a correct assumption to NOT bond a cheap inverter at the breaker box? Meaining one of those 60VAC HOT and 60VAC NEUTRAL type of inverters that are not bonded. I get that you shouldn't bond the neutral and hot of the inverter but you didn't mention about doing so at the circuit panel. At this point I wouldn't proceed before verifying this assumption but am assuming that is what you meant here... Sorry if this sounds confusing.
What if the inverters ground isn't even connected"since they're usually connected to the negative battery terminal", and just the panel with an outlet has ground bonded to neutral? Would it function?
What is not clear is the part talking about those "cheap" inverters, having 60v on both Line and Neutral: so it should not be bounded, but than how do you earth it in case of earth fault?
You can't. You can only plug stuff directly into the outlets on the inverter. The appliance still "sees" 120 v between hot and neutral, but neutral can't be bonded to ground. Some of these inverters may have a fuse or breaker. That will help in the case of a short circuit, but not a ground fault. In some cases there may be a chassis ground, but it won't stop a ground fault.
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@@ReelClearMediaLLC I just purchased one of these inverters - a 3300W Giandel 12V DC to AC (240V) inverter. It's not internally bonded (as confirmed by Giandel support) - according to them, no Giandel inverters sold in Australia are N-G bonded. Nor does it have an RCD / GFCI. I get the same half-voltage readings as shown in your video, i.e. L-N 240V, L-G 120V and N-G 120V. The inverter has a lug/screw on the chassis (i.e. metal casing) which the manual says needs to be earth grounded. If I knew all of this in advance, I wouldn't have bought this inverter. I NEED to do the incandescent light bulb test.
I don't really get why you wouldn't bond a power station ground and neutral. Yes, it is shown in the video there is no ground output contact; but why would bonding in the subpanel to protect against ground faults be bad?
Some power stations do allow you to use a bond. Mostly the high end power stations, but you need to verify from the manufacturer. Bonding some of the smaller power stations can fry them.
They do it to save money... cheaper to make a low voltage circuit and split it into two 60v legs, than to make a higher voltage circuit they can split into 120V legs. Appliances plugged directly into these will work normally (they see 120v across hot to neutral) but there is not a proper ground path, so they can't be connected to your house wiring.
I’ve got a growatt and I’ve been trying to determine whether it has an internal neutral-ground bond. Measuring ohms I get OL testing from the neutral to the ground which indicates unbonded Testing voltage with no load (circuit breaker at entrance to the panel is off), I get 120v hot to ground 120v hot to neutral 0.2 neutral to ground Testing with a load, I get more like 105 hot to neutral and 15 neutral to ground. Was wondering if this could be an indication of no neutral ground bond or more likely of faulty wiring. Lastly, I tested with an outlet tester (Klein RT110) and it said that the outlet was all good, which indicates that there is a neutral ground bond. Do you have any suggestion on how to interpret these results or get a more clear answer?
Possibly a wiring problem. You mention a circuit breaker and panel... is that after the output of the Growatt? if so, is the panel bonded? Do you have any AC input to the inverter?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC no ac input to growatt - it’s a fully off grid setup. currently don’t have neutral and ground bonded at the main panel because I can’t figure out if the inverter is bonded or not
I ended up bonding at the panel after the growatt and my voltages balanced out (0.2v between ground and neutral, 120 between each legs and neutral, 120 between each leg and ground). Thanks for your videos - they helped me a lot while trying to figure this stuff out
Hmm Reel clear? And yet when you measure resistance you say... it's high. LOL What is high? 20 ohms? 3000 ohms? 6 million ohms? While I'm at it, there is another way to tell if your inverter is neutral bonded, ask the manufacturer. But it is good to know how to check to make sure. See if the resistance is high.... lol ;-) I'm messing with ya some, but I think you will agree I have a point.
Unfortunately, I have had no luck getting any information from GroWatt. There were models of the 3000 that had dynamic bonding, and some that did not. And yes, I could have been a lot more more specific about "high resistance" 🙂
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Although I've have completed this task in my own off grid system. Your explanations simplifies this topic like no one else yet
Finally, someone took the time to properly explain this to us that are completely off grid. Thank you sir!!
Glad it was helpful!
I've been in this business for 40+ years and this is the best I have ever seen!
Absolutely the best and most clear information regarding neutral bonding off grid (with no grid input).
Brilliant as a British guy living in America this is so valuable
The best information on Bonding off-grid systems I could find on the internet. Thank you.
Big thanx. I have watched this video 10+ times, directly front of the powerbox and inverter and have done everything according your explanation. Now my Jacuzzi has started working and if my wife is happy...I'm to :D The difference is only that I have a EU 220V system and all the values where 2x.
The explanation of grounding and bonding was so darn clear. Thank you! I've watched dozens and videos and this was the best.
Awesome, thank you!
The best explanation of grounding & bonding I've found on the internet! Thank you!!
Yeah! Spent most of today looking to how to ground and off-grid inverter. Most were about grid connected systems. So this one is super clear and the only video that explained why and how to ground an off grid inverter. Highly recommended! Subscribed!
Thanks!
Super clear! So grateful to finding this release. Thank you for sharing
Great video, laid out simply by graphics,makes it easy to understand, good work, thank you.
Best video about floating N! Thanks!
Clear understandable explanation, thank You Sir
Great explanation. Very well done.
You guys are awesome. Beautiful vids pt1 and 2 👍🏼
Thanks so much!
GREAT VIDEO. THIS, is what I’ve been looking for. Thanks for making it so well.
Such a well explained video. Those diagrams are gold. I've just built a 100% off-grid system (i.e. no AC inputs, AC outputs not connected to house wiring) using a 24V 3000VA Victron Pheonix Inverter. I tested my AC inverter voltage (Hot to Neutral, Hot to Ground, Neutral to Ground) and it seems my inverter is bonded internally (tests are reading 240V, 240V and 0V, respectively....I'm in Australia). Thanks to your video I now understand that I DON'T need to bond AC ground and neutral in my consumer panel (i.e. breaker box / distribution panel) as it's already bonded in the Inverter.
So here's my silly question for you ----> does the rule "There can only be one (1) ground to neutral bond across the entire electrical system" take into account both the AC and DC side of the system? That is, if I have bonded ground to neutral on the AC side, then does that mean I shouldn't be bonding ground to neutral anywhere on the DC side? And if so, does this logic work in reverse ---> that is, if I a ground to neutral bond on the DC side, then I shouldn't be bonding anywhere on the AC side?
Thanks heaps .
DC can be totally separate. You have to see what your inverter manufacturer recommends in the manual.
There’s no such thing as neutral on the DC Side. Just negative and positive.
@@musicbox4022 Correct. However some manufacturers want either pos or neg on the dc side to be bonded to ground. Most do not.
Best video i have seen on this subject, i learned a lot
Very helpful and insightful. Thank you very much.
What a great video, easy to follow and informative, it’s one thing I was struggling with, I have a all in one and I do not know if it’s bonded, I will test it tomorrow. Thanks again.
You are so welcome!
THANK YOU!!! This video is incredibly helpful
Do you have a patreon so we can support! Finally a CLEAR explanation with great visuals!
What about grounding solar panels or batteries? My Sun Gold 5kwh wall mount battery has a ground symbol. Is that only if it's outside?
Thanks for the kind words. Grounding on the DC side completely varies by manufacturer, so I didn't try to cover that
Thanks for a clear explanation
Subscribed 🎉
Greatly appreciate the information provided in your video. Couple of issues, for one I think that a ground fault, like in your presentation, will not trip a circuit breaker. Its more likely to blow a fuse, which causes another problem with the unbonded inverters. (I just purchased one and will probably return it given the information you provided). The 120vac receptacles are not grounded despite being three prong type which indicates that they are. The grounding wires to the receptacles are connected to the earth wire tap on the inverter chassis and not the neutral wire. The receptacles can be tested with the resistance and voltage devices you mentioned.
I keep tripping a breaker every time I hook the ground rod wire to the nutral buzzbar and the inverter ground to the neutral buzz in the 220 ac box. Nows it's ground inverter to ground rod and it works now.
Great information and explanation of bonding.
Thank you for a clear explanation, we have an all in one Anenji inverter charger which supports parallel function, these inverters automatically do the ground neutral bond internally when using in off grid mode.. Though the question arises when you mentioned only bond in one place, so when having 2 of these inverters in parallel each inverter is now bonded would this still be a problem ? TIA
Much need info, very well done, Thanks
Thank you for the concise information. What worries me is nearby lightning strikes can enter the inverter through the ground rod. What can be done to make the inverter safe from lightning in this situation?
Some people use a lightning arrestor, like the midnight solar:
amzn.to/4cfr6g0
They make them for DC (from solar panels to inverter) as well as AC, so you have to get the correct one for your application.
Awesome video, Thanks.
Realy great videos. Do you have info on grounding your dc batteries when running an inverter system off grid. Am i suposed to or not? and if so do they ground to the same earth as the ac system?
That varies depending on the equipment used. Some batteries and inverters recommend grounding, some don't.
I will have my house both grid connected and off grid at the same time with all curcuits bar one going through a changeover switch. The other circuit will go to the hot water system which will have a separate changeover switch as that will be powered off grid as well most times. That circuit will also go back to the inverter AC in as a buck up supply to charge batteries in case there's no sun for a long time
Great Explanation, I think I set mine up right ?; The Caravan Has a Double pole RCBO (not bonded ) . When plugged into power in a caravan park or my house the bonded RCD part is at the source. I installed a 12 - 240v inverter in the caravan (bonded) and earthed to the chassis. I plug the 240 from the inverter into the caravan IN, when off grid. The output from the inverter is 10Amp, the input to the caravanis 15A, so I have a 10 - 15A conversion with inbuilt RCD (not bonded) because I doubt if the caravan RCBO will trip if there is a fault. Seems to work because the inbuilt RCD trips sometimes when I plug an induction cooker in while already have something else plugged in (common with these cookers I believe..)
I'm only familiar with the grid in the USA, so not sure what you have exactly. Make sure you don't have two bonds at the same time when plugged in to shore power (caravan park) while using inverter. Use a clamp meter and make sure you aren't sending any current on your ground (earth) wire.
This is a problem because using the inverter as your shore power by plugging into the shore power of the caravan, it will attempt to charge the battery… which i believe is the same battery it’s pulling from… you don’t want to charge a battery from the battery you’re trying to charge! You need a transfer switch to eliminate the charger when using the inverter.. or someway to turn off the charger when the inverter is being used.
Hello, thank you very much for your video, it clears some doubts i had with my solar equipment, now all is working perfect.
The floating neutral at the output (when the inverter is generating power or off the grid) produce flickering in led lamps, some equipment cases with the "tingling sensation" when touching them and around 70 volts difference between the neutral and ground. After landing the neutral, all the "fringe things" goes away. By the way, I land it at the breakers box "JUST AND ONLY AT THIS POINT" 😅.
awesome!
So, with a cheapo 2000w inverter, I should ground the inverter only? Great/Best described video I've seen on grounding, I'm just kinda slow. I'm gonna hook it up to a 30a box.
With Cheapo inverters, its always a risk to connect to existing grid AC. Adding a separate ground to a ground rod should be ok.
Awesome video. In the video you said, You should not add a neutral ground bond to the standalone inverters. I have a Renogy 2000W inverter that's connected to an earth ground via a ground busbar without being bonded. However, when I test using Greenlee GT-10 tester plugged into the outlets on the inverter it comes back as in open ground fault. As such I would believe that the neutral would need to be bonded to the ground busbar but there is no way to do that which makes this a difficult task if the inverter is off grid connected in a shed which it is, not connected to the house. Interesting dilemma I have.
Some standalone inverters shouldn't be bonded, some are able to be bonded. The forums are full of people saying they burned up their inverter by bonding. Is there anything in the manual about bonding? You might check on some of the solar diy forums and see if anyone else has bonded a Renogy. Or ask Renogy customer support.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Thank you for your reply. Renogy customer support wasn't really that helpful. I'm not sure if they even know if that inverter is bonded or not. They couldn't help me determine what to do for a totally off grid system. I looked on some solar sites in heaven found anyone who actually plugged in a tester to the inverter plugs for an off-grid system showing an open ground fault. Most videos or sites, blogs just plug the inverter up and that's it. They would be surprised to find out that many of them have open ground faults.
The manual really does not do a good job in reference to off grid systems that are not connected to house power. It's primarily designed for those with RVs and campers. The manual says the neutral (common) is not bonded to the chassis ground. Therefore, when chassis is connected to ground, the neutral conductor is not grounded. At no point should the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter be grounded.
In another paragraph it says… At no point should the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter be bonded. Bonding the chassis ground and the neutral conductor of the inverter or connecting the inverter to household or recreational AC distribution wire will damage the inverter and void the warranty.
So, for me there appears to be no options. However, I believe the best option for me is to locate an inverter that is internally bonded. With that in mind I started looking at the Wagan EL3808 Pure Line Power Inverter 2000 Watt DC 12V to 110V AC which says in its marketing video that it is NTG bonded, true ground.
I suspect that means the only thing left for me to do is connect the ground terminal to my grounding busbar which goes to a grounding rod… Would that be correct?
@@nazarenesect5931 Too bad about the renogy, that seems to be a popular unit.
Not familiar with the Wagan inverter. If they already have a N_G bond, yes hook their ground terminal to your grounded busbar, and don't bond Neutral and Ground in your breaker panel... Use separate N and G busbars
You should see 120V from L to N, 120V from L to G, and close to 0v from N to G. Also your tester should show no ground faults (it just sees if N and G are bonded)
Good explanation
Thanks!
Thank you for the clear explanation. I have an axpert(clone) 5kw inverter. I was not sure if I may bond n to earth in fear of damaging the inverter output transistors. Currently I have bonded through a 100w incandescent light bulb (resistance just over 500 ohm). Voltage neutral to earth, 0.2v and under load of 3kw, +-5volt. I am aware that over current protection where L touches the grounded chassis will not trip my 20A circuit breaker. but earth leakage detection works as expected. I would love to have schematic of the inverter to see what is going on at the ac output stage. The inverter has dry contacts to be able to operate a bonding relay dynamically, but it does not make logic sense - the dry contact only changes state when battery runs low and it switches over to utility power.
My guess is the dry contact could drive a higher amp relay or contacter that would only bond your circuits when it switches to battery power. When the inverter is powering loads from utility, the relay would disconnect the new bond, and the ciruits would use the bond from the AC in.
I think this helped me to see if my inver is bonded it’s not but I can do it in a panel
Hi. Thanks for the videos. So I currently have 2x mpp solar lv6548 inverters wired to a sub panel in split phase operation. Based on your video, i would have a bond loop as these inverters come with an internal bonding screw.. each having their own screw. As I understand it each inverter provides seperate 120v circuit to each bus bar seperatly in the panel. I will perform these tests to verify. These units also have internal ATS wich as I understand connect and disconnect the bond as needed when switching to grid ac in for bypass or charge. I soon will be connecting the ac in from my main panel to the inverters. Do I need to remove the bonding screw in the 2nd inverter when in off grid mode no ac input on either inverter. There seems to be a catch 22 here. When switching from grid to no grid ac input you cannot very well open the inverter each time to reinstall the screw just cause u need some juice to charge battery. Can you clarify what to do in each senerio keeping in mind that the inverters also switch between off grid and "grid" mode when needed. Do we have a design flaw here.. ty
Yes, it is a mess. They don't document the bonding for different systems either.
I manually manage my Growatt. I run it daily, using the internal charger and inverter, but almost never hook the input to the grid. The inverter output goes to a small breaker panel that supplies my car charger, some direct outlets, and one breaker sends power to the transfer switch. I use the transfer switch to manage when the loads in my house are on grid or inverter.
The only time I hook the input to the grid is to charge batteries from AC, right before a hurricane if batteries are low. While doing that I'm not running any loads on the transfer switch.
very good--thanks!
Hi, what about the DC system? Do we seperate the two grounds AC and DC or can they go on the same ground wire?
hello... thanks you very much for great video...I have a question
How would the grounds be connected in an off grid system? I use a backup inverter generator to charge the batteries ..I am interested in knowing how the ground should be connected. Have a nice day regards from Patagonia Chile.
test your generator and inverter with a meter to see if either is bonded.
If neither are bonded, bond G-N at a breaker box after the inverter, and add a ground wire to earth grounding rod.
If either generator or inverter is bonded, it is tricky.
test everything with a meter first...
I learnt a lot here. Thank you. One question. Does the earth spike connected to the main breaker box also works if the power utlity goes down and the inverter is in off-grid mode with a dynamic bonding or the Inverter needs it's own earth spike?
In the USA the neutral-ground bond and wire feeding the grounding rod are in the main panel after the meter. These work even when the power is down.
In other countries the ground may be different.
Thanks for the tutorial, it was really easy to understand. I have a question: should I connect the AC ground from the consumer unit (breaker panel) to a new, separate earth rod, or should I bond it to a DC earth busbar rod and have only one earth/ground rod in the system? Thanks.
In North America, typically you would want one ground rod. It may be different in other regions.
Is your breaker panel or inverter fed by the grid, or are you off-grid?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Hi and thanks for so fast reply. Im based in UK and have stand alone offgrid system without set to grid.
@@JHubnerProductions it depends on what your inverter manufacturer recommends for the DC system ground. The AC side earth (ground) rod is sometimes combined with DC, sometimes it is a separate earth ground rod.
NICE...So what protection does a stand alone inverter or a solar generator, or gas generator offer...Providing they don't come with a built in circuit breaker, Are there Fuses in case of a ground fault or short circuit ???
Some inverters and generators have a breaker or fuse. It's a good idea to always have external breakers between the inverter and battery, inverter and AC loads, and inverter and solar panels. Many people just use disconnects on the PV panels.
Hi, I really enjoyed your videos. What type of junction box did you use to extend the wiring from the flush-mounted sub-panel to the transfer switch? I need to do the same thing for my transfer switch. Thanks.
I used a standard junction box (for a switch or outlet) from Home Depot or Lowes. It's facing backwards and mounted on the wall to give me a place to connect the metal flexable conduit. If I remember correctly, the conduit came with the transfer switch.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Thank you!
Wonderful video. I am still trying to understand correctly.
Based on an Off Grid only, Single all in one outputting to Main breaker box (no sub panels)
If the all in one IS bonded, then the breaker box does NOT he bonded..
If the all in one is floating, then bonding at the box is necessary..
Am I getting this right?
Yes, that's right.
You want to have one and only one bond.
Just double check with a meter to be sure if the all-in-one is bonded or floating.
@ReelClearMediaLLC thank you so much, your videos have helped me understand much more than I did.
Supposed to have a bonded neutral at the first point of disconnect from the source.
i want to install ac spd after earthing nutrual bounding in main db box can i install ac spd after bounding and took earthing wire from grounding wire and insert in ac spd earthing point is it okay ? will ac spd will work and ground extra spikes/extra volts from grid (live/natural ) if we do natural and grounding bounding at main db box?
One thing I could not pick up at the end. If you have an inverter that is not dezigned to be bonded..... the ones you say should never be bonded..... I presume you simply do not connect the ground from the inverter to the house breaker panel..... But do bond ground and neutral at the house breaker panel so the earth leakage safety breakers trip.
I happen to be getting a 6000 watt (continuous rate) inverter. I am not sure it is bondable - although it does have a terminal block output.
No, unfortunately these should NOT be hooked to house wiring at all.
If the inverter has AC outlets, just plug appliances in there.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Oh. unfortunately, I cannot just plug appliances into the AC outlets.
I currently have an off grid system that has been running my house for 15 years. The power shed is outside my house. I have 1000 AH 48v battery bank with Selectronic inverter - 48v to 240v - 3000 watt continuous, 6000watt 30 second rate, and 10,000Watt surge.
This is connected to my main distribution breaker box incuding the earth wire.
All my sub boards run the ground wire back to the main breaker box where the earth buss there is connected to a copper ground spike. All the sub boards have correctly wired earth safety breakers - all tested and functioning correctly.
Basically, the house is wired as if connected to the grid, but actually connected to the inverter. The rating of the inverter must be correct because we often run 12 amps and sometimes 18 amps (4300 watts) without any fault. I was considering buying a standby inverter in the event of the old inverter breaking down. The cost of known brands is up into the $2000 range.
The CNSWIPOWER inverter that I was considering has a 6000watt continuous rating. (I have watched reviews that demonstrate 6000watt capability.)
This inverter had L G. N terminals on the front which are apparently for connecting to some permanent load.
Can you tell me why you believe that this inverter should not be connected to my house as a replacement for my existing inverter? cheers.
@@alanbeasy1775 In the video, I was referring to numerous inverters mentioned in DIY solar forums, where they literally fry the inverter by bonding. I'm not familiar with CNSWIPOWER, so I don't know if it falls in the "don't bond" catergory. It may well be OK to bond. In the reviews you watched, had anyone bonded that inverter? Hopefully it will work for you.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Thanks. I have decided not to risk it. As it turns out the Victron Multi-plus Inverter charger 48/230 - 5000w is on special at $1645 at the moment. I might as well pay the extra $750 and get a more bullet proof solution with all the top features. (Usually over $3000). That should see me through the next 15 years and I will service my existing unit to have on standby. Thanks again.
very good instructions.
I've heard of lightening coming through an Earth ground and destroying electronics, from lightening strikes..Is unplugging the solar panels from your system during storms, an option to an Earth ground..That might be a difficult question...
Thats an option, I have DC breakers near the panels (in combiner boxes) and each array goes through breakers near the inground fault verter. I turn the breakers off during storms if I'm here. There are lightning surge protectors and ground fault breakers available as well.
I have a question on solar trackers and combiner boxes? I installed my 4 string combiner box on 1 of my 2 solar trackers. I ran a ground rod straight to earth at that point and it is connected to the PV combiner box. Would this be considered my only earth ground needed for my entire DC off grid system? I have a eco-worthy 48volt all-in-one inverter which i feed to a breaker panel for my cabin.
I'm not familiar with eco-worthy. It depends on the manufacturer's recommendation. Some manufacturer's don't want either pos or neg DC to be grounded, some require one or the other.
Also, it is common to ground the frames (not the cables) of the panels and metal combiner boxes.
A solar tracker by default is already grounded, a grounding rod is not necessary and frankly redundant.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Not just common...required. I have 6 panels in series producing 400 volts. A PV panel wire short would energize all the panels as they are bonded to each other.
I have one of those giandel 24v 3000watt inverter. What size cable would I use to wire the terminal block to a breaker panel?
Not familiar with giandel 3000w... If you're referring to the AC output, you would output about 30 amps at 120v. For short runs 10awg should be ok, but I would use 8awg. I'm not an electrician, so you may want to consult one.
Question: I have a Quattro 5048 V 70 inverter. Mine was programmed to be off grid.
My problem is, I was told that the AC out goes to the interconnect switch on the main panel. With two 50 amp breakers. So that means it’s bonded at the panel?
But then I was told on the equipment side, I needed to have a ground bar outside for the DC side? This means that all the charge controllers and the inverter are going to a ground bus bar, and that is wired to an outside lightning rod.
So that means I have two grounding points, one for the AC side, and one for the DC side? I’m told this is only for off grid, and that on grid would be bonded at the main panel only.
Is this right or am I missing something? Thanks 🖖
Sorry, but I'm not sure. I have some Victron chargers, but I have never used one of their inverters.
I would try Victron support to be sure!
www.victronenergy.com/support
I have noticed that on the power pole outside neutral is grounded by fault. Should I disconnect the bond in the inverter until corrected by utility.
What country are you located?
Philippines so very unlikely to get a quick fix.
I believe the system used here is neutral is grounded every 5 posts, as it happens the ground wire is on this post, however there is an additional neutral to ground by utility by mistake.
Should I disable the ground neutral bond in the inverter
@@martinrodulfo5963 Yes, these videos only apply to North America, where we bond N_G at the main panel in the house.
It might be possible to use a transfer switch that switches neutral and line (DPST or DPDT) to switch circuits between grid and inverter. Or depending on your needs, you could keep the inverter and an inverter powered breaker panel completely "off-grid" for critical circuits.
I’ve got an EG4 3k inverter and battery that I tried to use for someone with no grid power due to a storm. Operating it in battery mode, I saw the same voltages as an unbounded neutral ground inside the inverter. When I ran it with a receptacle tester, it said I had an open neutral and was blinking. I tried plugging a newer Whirlpool refrigerator into it and it did not run. I plugged a lamp and/or a fan in the receptacle and they ran and the refrigerator then ran as long as either the light or the fan was running.
Can I create a neutral ground bond in the receptacle. Is that a safer way to operate?
FYI, I think the bonding screw was not put in the inverter in this version.
If I were to plug in an AC in into the house receptacle, even though the circuit is dead, would it create a neutral ground bond?
The safest way is to add a small breaker panel on the output of the inverter, and bond the breaker panel neutral and ground. Don't feed the AC input of the inverter from house wiring, or you have two bonds when the grid power comes back on, if the inverter's internal transfer switch goes back to grid.
If you are just using it during blackouts as a temporary generator, you can run the system without a ground. That may be against code in your area. If you want to use it even when the grid is up, use a transfer switch so you are using the bond in your main panel. See ruclips.net/video/PFeA-5A_pmc/видео.html
I have an eco-worthy 24v 3000w hybrid inverter and I’m getting 90v on line and 30v on neutral. Is it safe to assume I have a floating neutral and will be fine to bond ground and neutral in AC panel? I wasn’t expecting such a large difference from your testing.
I haven't used an eco-worthy, so I'm not sure why the voltages look like that.
Maybe you can find someone on RUclips or in solar forums that has connected an eco-worthy to the grid.
@@ReelClearMediaLLCit won’t be connected to the grid. Just trying to figure out if I need to bond neutral and ground in the breaker box.
Those are odd voltages. By "90v on line and 30v on neutral" are you measuring line-to-ground and neutral-to-ground? What voltage do you get line -to-neutral?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC yes I’m measuring each to the ground screw on the case, I don’t have an actual earth ground connected yet. Line and neutral together is 120v.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC I ended up bonding ground and neutral in my AC breaker panel and voltages are now reporting correctly. No more open ground and can trip gfi with tester. Leaving this info here in case anyone gets the same eco-worthy 3000watt 24v hybrid inverter charge controller and is struggling to find this info for theirs. Eco-worthy support was zero help. I am not using AC in, this is purely off grid.
A RCD protected circuit only works if n and earth are bonded.
Is it ok not to have the earth ground either in the inverter or the sub panel?
If you mean the ground rod, you should have one. They don't protect you from shorts or faults, but they dissipate static charges and help normalize the case grounds to zero.
Neutral-ground bonding creates a return path for a ground fault, so it can trip a breaker.
I don’t know if anybody has done this and what the best way about going about it. I have an off grid eg4 with batteries and solar panels in my detached garage. The inverters can be internally bonded or I can bond in the load center. No AC in or generator. My question is rarely during a power outage, I can hook up the inverters to my house wiring to run the house as if it was a “generator “(I would make sure the utility breaker is off). If I had the neutral bond engaged in the inverter and it’s connected to the house breaker box which has a legit earth ground, would that be an issue? Or would it be safer to leave the neutral bond off and run a ground from the inverter subpanel to the houses earth ground (which would solve me burying a rod and protect the system in case I power the house)?
It depends on the EG-4 model. The newer models like the 6000XP allow the neutral and ground from the AC input to share the existing bond.
It sounds like you have one of the older models where you can add or remove an internal screw to bond/unbond. You only want one bond in your system, so you have to add the bonding screw when not hooked to the grid In, and remove the screw when running AC in for charging. A bit of a pain...
Maybe you can help explain the following case because I am struggling to get answers online.. So I am an automation electrical engineer (some electrical background) but I do recognize earthing/grounding etc seems to be a topic a lot of people get wrong.. So There is a friend who owns a farm which does not have a utility infrastructure. So he currently entirely runs the house on a 3kw diesel generator. I will be helping him to connect a 5Kw solar system with a Lithium battery of 5kwh capacity. I will be attempting to wire the Generator to the inverter AC input as a means to charge the batteries when the weather did not permit for a battery charge. The inverter is always started manually. I know the Generator is a little bit too small for the inverter but I will see if it is at all possible to limit the charging current to the batteries which would then potentially help the inverter not too draw too much power from the generator and trip the generator. My main question to you is as follow:
So there will be two(2) power sources. The inverter would be the main source and the generator will be a backup, but the generator will be connected to the inverter AC input. THis means that the home may be powerd by the generator but it will come through the Inverter. Which source needs to be bonded here..?? Do I bond only the inverter and keep the Generator on a floating neutral?
I'm not an electrician or an electrical engineer, so you may want to check with an electrician.
I would bond at the breaker box AFTER the output of the inverter. Make sure the inverter and generator are NOT bonded. I would also run a ground wire to a grounding rod at this same panel. Measure voltage between neutral and ground at the output of the inverter, and check for continuity between ground and neutral ...see video 2 on bonding and grounding for offgrid.
Most inverters will let you limit the "utility" charging current (generator in this case), and overall charging current (generator and solar).
@@ReelClearMediaLLC Okay so am I correct when saying that when you touch your toaster's chassis that it would be the same as touching the neutral wire as the neutral and earth is bonded somewhere(only once) and the earth/ground wire is normally connected to an appliance's chassis? Thats basic question no.1 then for no.2 I will be using a setup like this offgrid inverter which will then feed into a neutral transfer switch. the other source would be an old Lister diesel generator which has no circuit protection. I would then only make the ground to neutral bond after the changeover of these two power sources. each of the power sources (inverter & generator) would have a ground wire coming in towards the transfer switch but they would be unbonded which would mean that these ground wires would only be connected to the chassis of the relavent power source.. So then these two ground wires would be connected together on a bus bar and at this bus bar I would connect a ground rod going 2meters into the ground with a copper electrode and a 10mm2 ground wire.
after the Transfer switch I would fee the L N and E wire into the home's main DB. Does this sound like standard practice from where you are in the u.s? The electricians I know still don't know really how earth/grounding works. They all still think an electrode into the ground makes everything safe..
@@franchosis Hi!
Question 1: Touching the toaster's chassis is NOT the same as touching the NEUTRAL, even though the ground (earth) wire from the toaster eventually bonds with the neutral. The ground wire does not ordinarily carry current, the neural does. The ground wire only carries current in a ground fault, which causes the breaker to trip and shut down the circuit.
I am not sure what you mean by neutral transfer switch. Is this a double pole switch that is switching Line and Neutral? Or a single pole switch that is switching only Line?
Yes, the ground wire from the generator and the inverter both connect at the breaker panel.
Just to be sure I understand, there is NO connection to the grid at all, correct?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC - Thank you for responding.
I understand that current flows between L and N but because the ground wire is bonded to N there will be a voltage potential on the toaster chassis. So if you take your multimeter and measure voltage between toaster chassis and neutral you will measure 0v but between L1 and the toaster Chassis you will measure the same Voltage potential as between Neutral and L1.. Current can only flow in a "closed circuit" So for example if you made another ground neutral bond at the toaster then you would have a ground loop and then you will have current flowing from the toaster back to source on the neutral and the ground wire.. THis would be dangerous. So am I correct in this understanding? There is a voltage potential on the toaster chassis ? ALthough it is not dangerous at all as there is no current flow path.
In my situation a neutral transfer switch is a transfer switch that switches both the phase and the neutral..correct. a standard transfer switch only switches the L1.
So yes to your question - There is no utility grid infrastructure on this farm house. It is absolutely reliant on a generator and now inverter that has been coupled.. I am just understanding grounding and earthing more in depth so I can make it as safe as possible
@@franchosis As for the chassis and grounding for the toaster... Yes, if you measure between the chassis (ground) and Line there will be voltage. The chassis offers an alternative return path for the line to "return to source", the source being the neutral. But by itself, the chassis is not dangerous. Every metal appliance and electrical box also has this.
A neutral transfer switch is typically used when two different power sources are BOTH bonded. Such as a bonded generator and the grid.
If 1. the generator is not bonded, and
2. the inverter is not bonded,
3. and you bond at the breaker box after the inverter...
then you may not even need a transfer switch.
The all in one inverter may have a transfer switch (relays) built in.
What is the make and model of the inverter?
AC out on my inverter has no Earth terminal so all I could think to do is connect the chassis to my common Earth ground bar.
It is worth knowing that there is not one way of doing it different inverters need doing differently so this video is great but take it as a recommendation not how to do your own research based on what inverter you have
I purchased an inverter that cannot be bonded. I bonded it and it smoked. What should I do? Manufacturer mentions it on their instructions, do not connect neutral to ground wire.
Hybrid inverters you can be bond neutral of input and output at the service panel
I am left with a question: Is it a correct assumption to NOT bond a cheap inverter at the breaker box? Meaining one of those 60VAC HOT and 60VAC NEUTRAL type of inverters that are not bonded. I get that you shouldn't bond the neutral and hot of the inverter but you didn't mention about doing so at the circuit panel. At this point I wouldn't proceed before verifying this assumption but am assuming that is what you meant here... Sorry if this sounds confusing.
One thing I will be doing is making sure that I get an inverter that can be bonded at the distribution panel (circuit box).
No, these should NOT be bonded. Also, they should not be connected to household (grid) AC at all.
What if the inverters ground isn't even connected"since they're usually connected to the negative battery terminal", and just the panel with an outlet has ground bonded to neutral? Would it function?
What is not clear is the part talking about those "cheap" inverters, having 60v on both Line and Neutral: so it should not be bounded, but than how do you earth it in case of earth fault?
You can't. You can only plug stuff directly into the outlets on the inverter. The appliance still "sees" 120 v between hot and neutral, but neutral can't be bonded to ground.
Some of these inverters may have a fuse or breaker. That will help in the case of a short circuit, but not a ground fault.
In some cases there may be a chassis ground, but it won't stop a ground fault.
@@ReelClearMediaLLC I just purchased one of these inverters - a 3300W Giandel 12V DC to AC (240V) inverter.
It's not internally bonded (as confirmed by Giandel support) - according to them, no Giandel inverters sold in Australia are N-G bonded. Nor does it have an RCD / GFCI.
I get the same half-voltage readings as shown in your video, i.e. L-N 240V, L-G 120V and N-G 120V. The inverter has a lug/screw on the chassis (i.e. metal casing) which the manual says needs to be earth grounded.
If I knew all of this in advance, I wouldn't have bought this inverter. I NEED to do the incandescent light bulb test.
I don't really get why you wouldn't bond a power station ground and neutral. Yes, it is shown in the video there is no ground output contact; but why would bonding in the subpanel to protect against ground faults be bad?
Some power stations do allow you to use a bond. Mostly the high end power stations, but you need to verify from the manufacturer. Bonding some of the smaller power stations can fry them.
any chance of an in depth vid as to why these cheapo inverters are wired like this? seems dodgy as hell.
They do it to save money... cheaper to make a low voltage circuit and split it into two 60v legs, than to make a higher voltage circuit they can split into 120V legs. Appliances plugged directly into these will work normally (they see 120v across hot to neutral) but there is not a proper ground path, so they can't be connected to your house wiring.
how dangerous is to have unbonded ground?
Unbonded ground means in case of a ground fault, there is no return path to trip the breaker. Could cause a fire or electrocution.
Yep.
I’ve got a growatt and I’ve been trying to determine whether it has an internal neutral-ground bond.
Measuring ohms I get OL testing from the neutral to the ground which indicates unbonded
Testing voltage with no load (circuit breaker at entrance to the panel is off), I get 120v hot to ground 120v hot to neutral 0.2 neutral to ground
Testing with a load, I get more like 105 hot to neutral and 15 neutral to ground. Was wondering if this could be an indication of no neutral ground bond or more likely of faulty wiring.
Lastly, I tested with an outlet tester (Klein RT110) and it said that the outlet was all good, which indicates that there is a neutral ground bond.
Do you have any suggestion on how to interpret these results or get a more clear answer?
Possibly a wiring problem.
You mention a circuit breaker and panel... is that after the output of the Growatt? if so, is the panel bonded?
Do you have any AC input to the inverter?
@@ReelClearMediaLLC no ac input to growatt - it’s a fully off grid setup. currently don’t have neutral and ground bonded at the main panel because I can’t figure out if the inverter is bonded or not
I ended up bonding at the panel after the growatt and my voltages balanced out (0.2v between ground and neutral, 120 between each legs and neutral, 120 between each leg and ground). Thanks for your videos - they helped me a lot while trying to figure this stuff out
@@willisplummer awesome!
Confused ---> your voltage test (with no load) indicated a N-G bonding, but a continuity test did not (meter reading - OL).
Hmm Reel clear? And yet when you measure resistance you say... it's high. LOL What is high? 20 ohms? 3000 ohms? 6 million ohms?
While I'm at it, there is another way to tell if your inverter is neutral bonded, ask the manufacturer. But it is good to know how to check to make sure. See if the resistance is high.... lol ;-) I'm messing with ya some, but I think you will agree I have a point.
Unfortunately, I have had no luck getting any information from GroWatt. There were models of the 3000 that had dynamic bonding, and some that did not.
And yes, I could have been a lot more more specific about "high resistance" 🙂