Was Duelyst The Most Underrated CCG Ever?
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- An Indie Dev and a AAA Dev discuss and play Duelyst II: a collectible tactics game with an interesting past. Released in 2016 the original Duelyst burned bright on release only to be shut down four years later. Now, it's been resurrected by a handful of passionate devs.
Hosts:
Forrest Imel forrestimel.com/
Gavin Valentine www.gavinvalen...
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Yes it was! I loved everything of this game, the art, the ccg aspect, rhe factions, and above everything the tactical gameplay. Unfortunately I fell out of it due to lack of time, but I'm still missing it and wanting a game similar to it. Thanks for making a video about it
(Those Card Animations reminded me of 1992's Shining Force! Its 2-frame menu animations are something I've always wanted to recreate and use somewhere!!)
VERY INTERESTING video, and way to approach design by interacting with it! Would highly suggest you try playing Decihper's Lord of the Rings through GEMP.
Yes! I loved Shining Force I and II. They were my introduction to turn-based tactics games on a grid. I spent so many hours trying to get enemies to 1HP so my low level characters could last hit them and get that sweet 49 exp.
Cool to see some Duelyst II on the channel, some notes from what I can remember when I covered it:
- The various Duelyst sequels are handled by different teams. There's a couple because the original Duelyst code was effectively open sourced, although iirc Duelyst II had the most contact with the original dev team, a bit of a head start before the code & IP was opened up further. The biggest differentiator aside from that is different design goals, they're trying to snapshot and further explore what they saw as a strong point in the original Duelyst's development, with whether you draw one or two cards per turn being one of the biggest differences.
- The Generals having different art is similarly a relic of original Duelyst's development, where they did have different abilities/stats at some point, I think added later in development. This is another of those things that was divisive, and the various Duelyst sequels handle differently.
- The complexity level is wild at basically any level of play, there's "Solve the kill" puzzles somewhere in the client that get extremely hard. So aside from unique terms and new player learning curve I think the game does, for better and worse, derive a lot of depth from trying to apply card game mechanics to a positional game.
- Competitive (/ranked ladder) game length is very variable, you can have RDW-equivalent matches that are done in ~3 minutes, you can have long matches that last 25+. I'd say average game length skews a few minutes higher than magic, if only because aggressive strategies can do a better job keeping up on resources due to the two cards a turn, so running out of gas is less of an issue & aggro can shift into midrange a bit.
- Interesting to see Gavin pick up on reacting to placed units and known/unknown information as a potential reason for summoning sickness. From what I remember of tier 1 decks, one of the most popular ones leveraged a unit that could copy itself and overwhelm the opponent with a sort of scute swarm/zerg rush thing. The only really effective way to combat the strategy was to kill the unit before it multiplied, so replacing cards and digging for kill spells or Ravenous Chupacabra/Brutal Cathar equivalents (and moving/positioning to make sure they worked) was extremely important. Stuff like this is also why some of the interaction is absurdly efficient.
- There's definitely wraths, at least asymmetrical/windowed ones. "Control" in it's neat, often leans more into terrain generation/manipulation stuff.
It's a really cool game. I think it deserves a lot of credit for doing some really original and robust design work in area of gaming that can often struggle to get away from staples like MTG, especially years ago when the original Duelyst launched. I also agree with basically everything in the video in terms of how it communicates and markets its complexity, you have to be willing to put some effort in to get a good time out of Duelyst II. I do wish I had more excuses to play or talk about it in general, it's such a interesting and singular thing, but it does seem stuck as a niche product.
The innovation is really exciting, but I agree, the complexity is likely what kept it from broad appeal.
fun trivia: Celerity was an alternative keyword considered for the Haste ability in Magic
This brings back so many memories!
As a person who played this game until it closed, I will bring up one point that you mention in the video. You say that it was weird to draw two and that was something the game took into account as it continued in its lifespan. They changed the system eventually so you only drew one card at end of turn instead of two to slow down the pace of play instead of incentivizing vomiting your hand out.
Also, watching this is so nostalgic to see so many of the unnerfed cards such as 1 mana natural selection. You were right for the comparison! It was a little too strong especially with the draw two mechanic
Kinda wish you got to see hero abilities that were associated with each of the different faction leaders just to see your reactions. But I think it would have maybe gone into a discussion on too much complexity early on. Which I feel occurs because originally the game only had 1 hero for each faction until they slowly added more organically because upfronting the game with so many heroes like it is now with this version is quite a lot.
I thought the leaders had abilities! Haha. Thanks for your insight.
This is the only "card" game I've enjoyed playing it! I loved it to bits when it released. Maybe I could give it another try
Interesting that you draw 2 and get a loot every turn. That's a ton of card flow, so a lot of deck consistency. Means decks will get to do their thing every game, but I can see things getting samey too.
Yeaaaah we mention in the video that it feels like they didn’t fully embrace what being a card game offers.
Is funny bc I'm making a card system that works like that, but format is singleton, and there's close to no draw (if I do not just choose remove any draw except for the draw phase draw up to 5), fut you draw almost all your deck every game, you just draw different parts of it in different order every time, I'm trying to make it work.
I haven't played it much since it came back, but I'm glad this game still exists. It's probably the most fun I've ever had with a card game.
Interesting point about changing sides when you're P1 vs P2. I'm pretty used to it from fighting games, so I never thought about it.
GrincherZ's Intro to Duelyst such as Opening Basics and Intro to Duelyst Deckbuilding might help a LONG way before heading into the game.
(Mogwai's content is the best duelyst content as well for sure IMO. And thescientist former champ as well.)
having a series thats a first few hours of play into lots of digital TCGs or semi Miniatures games would be really interesting. Analyzing the initial feeling or what interesting design decisions that could be applied elsewhere etc
I loved the Japanese TCG Force Of Will and am currently enjoying the digital Minis game Moonbreaker
This is still available to play?? I thought it shut down
It is! It was shutdown in 2020 and then the devs made the game open source.
Aw man please play more games on stream while breaking them down. This was great
would be soooo interested to hear your thoughts on the tragically defunct MYTHGARD
Would love to hear your thoughts on Confrontation as a game and why you think it failed
I love this format! Getting to hear your real time reactions, how you play, and how you analyze it through a game maker perspective is fantastic! More of this please.
Side note: Would love to hear y'alls thoughts on the new game, Animal Well. It's not your normal board/card genre that you usually cover, but it's a great and interesting game for so many reasons. It was created by one developer/creator/artist, published by a youtube personality, and it heavy on the vibes, puzzles, and exploration. It also could open up interesting conversations about the state of the gaming industry which I would love to hear your thoughts on.
8:30 Agreed, but keep in mind. The original artstyle changed during duelyst 2, in the original duelyst the general art looked different and imo, way better.
You guys should really really try Caller's Bane (previously called Scrolls) by Mojang. Was absolutely incredibly well designed but does because Mojang didn't market it.
Hella good digital CCG with hex tile placement. And you can still play it on community servers.
I used to play this game a ton! Loved the format. Really cool to see you guys trying it out and explaining your experience with the game!
Duelyst was my first card game. It's a supreme banger
I cant believe you made a video about this game. Hope it gets popular. Its fun and a fresh design
I make duelyst 2 content from top 20 of S rank and post tournament finals, aim is to sponsor more tournament as my channel grows !, appreciate subs
Havent ever known anyone who was into duelyst. I played the original and im glad its back
Duelyst is one of my favorite games. I have a Mechaz0r! Deck that I LOVE. I made a mechtitan core deck in mtg as tribute
Plays like a card game but doesn't look like one.
i really appreciate this video as both a showcase of the game i personally have never played and the takes of design theory application. matters of taste seem to be presented clear enough. very good content guys!
the presentation was also an evolution from the artifact vids. being able to read ur faces adds value while watching the gameplay on most of the screen space
Loved this game!
I'd thought of a concept similar to Duelyst before, but I thought that it'd be really confusing to new players. And yeah, Duelyst does seem pretty confusing to new players. It seems easy to miss stuff like the Provoke and the tiles on the map, that seem likely to be frustrating, sort of like if your opponent put a Dryad Arbor among his lands. The choice of names for keywords doesn't help either
I'm still thinking of a concept similar to Duelyst. Duelyst is great and I can't stop playing it, but it is lacking ATB combat (including instant spells), and lacking 2v2 or 3v3 action. Imagine this game 2v2 with ATB, it could become an esport. Duelyst would have been hard to pick up if not for the all-encompassing starter puzzles; they were perfect for introducing the mechanics 1 by 1 to avoid too much overwhelm. A solo campaign "tutorial" is mandatory for a complicated game. Also with the ATB combat my personal opinion is it would be better if every piece that hit the field had the survivability of a general and had deeper skillsets and attack patterns, so the skirmish complexity resembles mobas. That would up the skill floor even more but hey it would be a sick game.
Reminds me a bit of faeria, which I feel like leaned into the idea a bit harder.
Faeria is also super cool. We’ll probably talk about it in the future.
The game is great why do they act like everything is super hard to understand... English is not the language i was born into and I play it in English, Airdrop? No problem, Provoke ? Of course, behind or in front of your general/commander? Easy... it feels like they go out of their way to trash on it... Duelyst devs don't pay attention to this dudes your game is great and easy to learn, you even put tutorials and puzzles on the game... love this game❤
Great video, but minor detail:
Natural Selection kills *the* lowest Attack creature, not the lowest Attack enemy creature.
This means that when you can play it is restricted by what creatures you and your opponent have in play, potentially forcing you to take suboptimal trades in order to hit the best target with the Selection.
Great point. Though, I’m not sure that’s particularly initiative for a new player.
DUELIST CAME BACK?
Yup!
Every day I wish for a Spellweaver TCG revival. Game is basically dead, with a small player base, buy maybe if you take a look at it, that could make it more known.
We’ll check it out!
Summoning sickness is so unintuitive. Players want to play their cards and use them. Not wait. In games like marvel snap that simulate simultaneous gameplay this isn’t necessary. I’d love to see innovation in this field
Agreed. Especially in duelyst it really feels weird because you can’t use any of the actions of your “card” when that “card” has additional actions because of the game board.
Nah it’s bad. The most underrated card game is Faeria.
Also wow that mana counter is not very visible on a blue background.
I enjoyed the game when it was open beta. I played Vanar, no one expects the double Avalanche
Sees title: YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Yes
I play duelyst 2 ever now and then but i enjoy it for a few hours just to mess around
Complains about gameplay. Doesnt read cards and gets upset. Classic
yeah
"What's Duelysi?"
Wait a minute this video is anamorphic!
Haha just 2.39 ratio, no cool lens flares. 😆
Welcome to the club boys.
DUELYST MENTIONED! 🎉
Nope, it was just bad