Vrook-Blinded, zealous and ignorant Zez-kai Ell- eyes opened, understanding and sympathetic to the Exile, but afraid and shaken by the revelations and the implications of his changed perception of the Force. Kavar- Understands and sympathetic, however still a bit blind, but recognizes the failures of the Jedi and their judgement of the Exile, and the echoes of pain in the Force and how the Sith are hunting the Jedi via these wounds. As a kid I always started with Dantooine then Nar Shaddaa and finally Dxun/Onderon, and it was amazing seeing the layers peeled back between the perceptions between all 3 masters.
@@Ubeogesh When I mean kid, I mean like 12 to 13, and I don't think my understanding was a good as it is now, but I did get a sense of each Jedi Masters reaction to me and the troubles that plagued their worlds. Kavar and Vrook I knew pretty well, but Zez Kai Ell I was uncertain of, he just seemed afraid to me. However I honestly enjoyed the dialogue in this game alot, so id make multiple saves to try out different options. I always wanted to know the why of things and characters like Zez Kai Ell made me constantly go back.
If only Vrook died....maybe then the other two would have allied with us. Vrook controlled that meeting in The Enclave. His influence doomed the other two.
I played this game religiously when I was 6 or 7, never understood what Kreia Vrook Kavar Zezzy Visas or Atris were ever on about, but now I realize that I have a personality and moral viewpoint that is almost identical to Kreia's
Kavar was always my favourite Master Jedi, despite him still being blind to the truth. He was closer than anyone to the Exile and for that he sympathizes with you (if you are light) and tries to understand. More than can be said for others, he tries more than any Master and offers sympathy, comprehension. The only death I slightly regretted
I know what you mean. Though Zez Kai Ell went so far as to admit that the exile was right to do what she did. Everything she did, including going to war and renouncing the force. Albeit from a more observant based conclusion as opposed to an empathetic one.
Papito Qinn if anything that makes me respect Zez more so than Kavar. Though I am empathetic myself and appreciate his humanity, Zez seemed more detached from humanity on Nar shadda and reflected on the matters more so for what they were- and then admitted his mistake. but yes Kavar has been logically throughout and has a compassion and strategy behind his logic (unlike a certain asshole, dogmatically-clinging-to-the-comfort-of-his-beliefs-and-ego Vrook)
Kavar does mention in one dialogue sequence that he believes in you for going to war. So maybe Kavar was in a moralistic conflict with himself. Brave Jedi Master, great character!
Could add more praises to Kavar, but instead I want to point out that he refers to Revan as Darth Revan regardless of how the previous game ended. Similar to how Sion always refers to Revan and the Lord Revan. It's speaks to both characters and the nature of titles.
Okay first of all: Wow, thank you very much! Secondly: Yep, I've been doing this for quite a while now. Still got more to go. Thirdly: I'm still not entirely sure what the definition of "based" is, but I'll take it as a compliment in this case.
It kind of baffles me how Kavar went from this to deciding that the exile had to be cut off from the force. Here he's very sympathetic and admits that he wanted to train the exile to eventually take his place. He straight up admits that they made a mistake and that he respects the exile's choice even if he doesn't approve of it. Then when the exile meets all of them he just goes along with the plan to cut them off from the force. He doesn't even try to explore a different plan he just says "okay we're going with it.".
The poison of dogma clouded their learning and stopped their growth, and the fear to an unknown threat blinded them to a truth they were so close to understanding. Vrook probably didn't help.
I sided with colonel Vaklu because Kreia told me that helping them may be useful for getting us closer to Master Kavar. She was right, in a way. I had to defeat him, even though I absolutely didn't want to. Probably my biggest mistake in the game aside from causing the destruction of Peragus mining station. It also caused me to have to kill the two remaining Jedi masters on Dantooine. And to add even more salt to the festering wound, fucking Kreia becomes furiously disappointed in me and almost kills me. That was the lowest point in the game for me, it might as well have ended with me dying there.
The railroading on Dantooine with the Jedi Masters is definitely the weakest part of KOTOR II's story. Not only is it impossible to convince them to not be cowards, there's no middle choice if killing the Jedi was completely impersonal, like with Kavar.
Wait, is it possible to avoid the destruction of Peragus? If so, I would do everything in power to not blow it up again. Mainly for the Republic's sake.
Yeah, you and Kreia with you. She only ALMOST killed you, but the dumb b*tch then realized she would have also died. It's whatever though, she dies a hypocrite anyway.
I do love that they went out of their way to make all 4 Jedi Masters you encounter feel distinct- Vrook is a special kind of uptight asshole, Atris is a beautiful portrait of hypocrisy, and Kavar is just the absolute bro-tier Jedi Master like Qui Gon. He's not immune to the order's flaws, but he's less of an exemplar of them than the other Masters in the game, and it makes the council feel like an interesting body of leadership for the Jedi.
Here's my take on the three Jedi masters: *Master Vrook* is the embodiment of religious zealotry. To him the Jedi Order is correct, just and absolute. In his eyes the perfect Jedi is an obedient slave to the Light Side of the Force who never deviates from the order's teachings. _Personal Note - I enjoyed seeing him die near the end of the game._ *Master Kavar* is the embodiment of family loyalty. To him the Jedi Order is family. Every Jedi is a brother, a sister, a son or a daughter. In his eyes, straying from the Jedi Order would be the same as abandoning your family. It's the reason why he went against the council's wishes and helped Meetra Surik when she joined Revan to war in the early Dxun campaigns. He didn't agree with her decision, but he couldn't abandon his "daughter" either. _Personal Note - he's the only master I secretly hoped Kreia would spare, but alas she didn't._ *Master Zez-Kai Ell* is the embodiment of apathy. He knows that the Jedi Order is flawed but he's too afraid to do something about it. He ends up doing nothing and becoming nothing. _Personal Note - I didn't care much for him, which is fitting now that I think about it._
Zez-Kai Ell and his inaction, I personally saw as the result of being paralyzed by fear. He chose to be a coward, I feel rather than consciously choosing not to care/ be apathetic...his self imposed Exile on Nar Shadaa using the mass of life around him to hide himself from the enemy rather than gather the Jedi to confront their threat was nothing more than a snivelling cowardice with the veneer of wisdom. Then again, if he could not be moved to act despite the magnitude of his fear, I suppose it is a form of apathy. Thanks for your comment. I love how this game and this story continues to pose questions and inspire discussion nearly 2 decades later.
@@ThePolandball Zez-Kai Ell is the good man who did nothing. We're all faced with such choices in life, and our decisions show what kind of individuals we are. Zez-Kai Ell was faced with such a choice when Meetra Surik returned from war to face the council. He could have easily said "Hold on guys, let's not make any rash decisions. Let's sit and think about it a little bit. What are the implications of life existing without the Force? Can we at least entertain the possibility that we are wrong? What if our teachings are flawed and Revan did the right thing?" Instead of taking the risk of challenging the council, he did nothing, said nothing, and fled to hide on Nar Shaddaa like a little bitch.
Kavar was good Jedi, but I wish he could be seen more beyond the Jedi ways of seeing the force. He might made a compelling counter balance to Kreia. Two old mentors who could see more than the surface of the force, would have been nice. But I admit Kreia is still the more compelling/complex mentor character. Also, I am the only one who noticed Iziz Cantina music wasn't playing in the first? I swear that was Javyar Cantina music.
I record these with just the dialogue volume on. If I need sound effects I record those separately. The music I lay down myself. I made this some time ago so I don't remember if I used the music that was really playing in the location or just decided to use Javyar's Cantina.
@@PapitoQinn Papito Qinn Oh, okay that makes sense. It's easier to get the dialogue first and then add the music when your putting these vids together. I listen to the Kotor 1 & 2 soundtrack alot on my phone, so I was just confused when heard the difference... But thanks replying and letting me know.
4:17 those who cannot adapt will perish. Since Exar-kun's war the Jedi were static. shattered with indecisions and mired in debate. With the Mandalorian Wars proving this exact point. Kavar still doesn't understand this.
The Jedi seem to have trouble adapting or changing which seems to put them at a disadvantage with their enemies. The sith and dark jedi despite their less than desirable qualities are not afraid to try different tactics and methods.
Despite sharing the rest of the Council's beliefs, I think you might be my favorite master of the Old Republic council. You're pretty polite, but also awesome, given how you used your prowess as a jedi to defend the queen. Wait to stick to your relatively weak blasters while doing something efficient with them! And you would have become our master? I can certainly think of worse, even though you're no Obi Wan.
I think about all master kavar has taught me during the wars! He was my one true master yes he was truly blind that’s why we could connect so well I understand him better then any of his students ( Meetra surrik).
ItsRyanYT fun fact he wanted to make you his padawan and say you became a guardian if you did and if you go consular or sentinal he tried to make you a guardian
I can think of worse Jedi for the job. Though Kavar was with the other masters' flawed habit of over-analyzing things, he's a very awesome guardian and had a lot of potential. He, unlike the rest of the Council, really does make the most of both his skills and his beliefs.
The problem was when the 3 discoverd what was "wrong with you" they got scare and want to put an end to you. Worst still he didn't have any remorse or want another Alternative
Meetra went back to her first master to find out what had happened since the mandalorian wars and then all at once another war breaks before they have the chance to speak!
While I never delve into the DS-side often, I still wonder when you'll upload the DS-variant of fighting Kavar on Onderon. (I already saw it via other videos already, but i'm still looking forward to your take on it regardless)
I guess its the same that plays when fighting in telos restoration zone: ruclips.net/video/8qCDOeTiuPE/видео.html There is also another variant which plays Onderon, but it is pretty much the same
As sympathetic as Kavar is he still agrees to end you with the rebuilt jedi council though after all the help you provided on those worlds if you follow the LS
Well at that point you have to go back to the spaceport and leave Onderon. Then come back after you visit a different planet who haven't been to before.
AlphaWolf Official Oh dear. Well I've never done that. But I searched around and it seems that there's 2 possibilities. 1. It's time based. After flying around for a little while the message from Kelborn should trigger. 2. The moment you leave Onderon you should get the message if Onderon was your last planet.
Papito Qinn I'm gonna go with the first one since I already left and explored the sith cave but I started neutral so I can't go in yet and then I explored the crystal cave and seen ruble that want there before now I'm chilling on telos
I wish you could side with Vakklu but not be forced to kill Kavar. The Vakklu route it a lot more fun IMO, but I like a full council to confront when the time comes
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Vrook-Blinded, zealous and ignorant
Zez-kai Ell- eyes opened, understanding and sympathetic to the Exile, but afraid and shaken by the revelations and the implications of his changed perception of the Force.
Kavar- Understands and sympathetic, however still a bit blind, but recognizes the failures of the Jedi and their judgement of the Exile, and the echoes of pain in the Force and how the Sith are hunting the Jedi via these wounds.
As a kid I always started with Dantooine then Nar Shaddaa and finally Dxun/Onderon, and it was amazing seeing the layers peeled back between the perceptions between all 3 masters.
you understood all that as a kid? As a teenager i didn't understand half the things that happened in KotOR 2 (yet still loved every bit of it)
@@Ubeogesh When I mean kid, I mean like 12 to 13, and I don't think my understanding was a good as it is now, but I did get a sense of each Jedi Masters reaction to me and the troubles that plagued their worlds. Kavar and Vrook I knew pretty well, but Zez Kai Ell I was uncertain of, he just seemed afraid to me. However I honestly enjoyed the dialogue in this game alot, so id make multiple saves to try out different options. I always wanted to know the why of things and characters like Zez Kai Ell made me constantly go back.
If only Vrook died....maybe then the other two would have allied with us. Vrook controlled that meeting in The Enclave. His influence doomed the other two.
I had the exact same order in my first playthrough
I played this game religiously when I was 6 or 7, never understood what Kreia Vrook Kavar Zezzy Visas or Atris were ever on about, but now I realize that I have a personality and moral viewpoint that is almost identical to Kreia's
Kavar was always my favourite Master Jedi, despite him still being blind to the truth. He was closer than anyone to the Exile and for that he sympathizes with you (if you are light) and tries to understand. More than can be said for others, he tries more than any Master and offers sympathy, comprehension. The only death I slightly regretted
I know what you mean. Though Zez Kai Ell went so far as to admit that the exile was right to do what she did. Everything she did, including going to war and renouncing the force. Albeit from a more observant based conclusion as opposed to an empathetic one.
Papito Qinn if anything that makes me respect Zez more so than Kavar. Though I am empathetic myself and appreciate his humanity, Zez seemed more detached from humanity on Nar shadda and reflected on the matters more so for what they were- and then admitted his mistake.
but yes Kavar has been logically throughout and has a compassion and strategy behind his logic (unlike a certain asshole, dogmatically-clinging-to-the-comfort-of-his-beliefs-and-ego Vrook)
.....in saying that both of them felt like they betrayed me when we gathered on Dantooine
Dimm Ster Indeed. I'm a Zez man myself. That was probably one of the reasons I did my Jedi master videos on him first.
Kavar does mention in one dialogue sequence that he believes in you for going to war. So maybe Kavar was in a moralistic conflict with himself. Brave Jedi Master, great character!
With special appearance HK-47
Could add more praises to Kavar, but instead I want to point out that he refers to Revan as Darth Revan regardless of how the previous game ended. Similar to how Sion always refers to Revan and the Lord Revan. It's speaks to both characters and the nature of titles.
Holy crap I didn't realize how long you've been posting these clips and compilations. Based.
Okay first of all: Wow, thank you very much! Secondly: Yep, I've been doing this for quite a while now. Still got more to go. Thirdly: I'm still not entirely sure what the definition of "based" is, but I'll take it as a compliment in this case.
@@PapitoQinn Haha it's no problem at all man, by based I mean epic.
It kind of baffles me how Kavar went from this to deciding that the exile had to be cut off from the force. Here he's very sympathetic and admits that he wanted to train the exile to eventually take his place. He straight up admits that they made a mistake and that he respects the exile's choice even if he doesn't approve of it. Then when the exile meets all of them he just goes along with the plan to cut them off from the force. He doesn't even try to explore a different plan he just says "okay we're going with it.".
Vrook wouldn't take no for an answer and Zaz Kai-Ell fell right in line with his reasoning.
Kavar's hand was reluctant, but still forced.
In the end Kavar chose the Jedi, flawed as they are..above his former friend. He deserved to die.
He sided with his fellow Jedi. It seems that at times the Jedi choose to agree with their fellows rather than speak up in opposition.
Such is the dangers of groupthink, especially when that group is led and swayed by someone like Vrook Lamar.
The poison of dogma clouded their learning and stopped their growth, and the fear to an unknown threat blinded them to a truth they were so close to understanding. Vrook probably didn't help.
I sided with colonel Vaklu because Kreia told me that helping them may be useful for getting us closer to Master Kavar. She was right, in a way. I had to defeat him, even though I absolutely didn't want to. Probably my biggest mistake in the game aside from causing the destruction of Peragus mining station. It also caused me to have to kill the two remaining Jedi masters on Dantooine. And to add even more salt to the festering wound, fucking Kreia becomes furiously disappointed in me and almost kills me. That was the lowest point in the game for me, it might as well have ended with me dying there.
Dying in the game, or IRL?
The railroading on Dantooine with the Jedi Masters is definitely the weakest part of KOTOR II's story. Not only is it impossible to convince them to not be cowards, there's no middle choice if killing the Jedi was completely impersonal, like with Kavar.
OMG! Kreia almost killed herself.
Wait, is it possible to avoid the destruction of Peragus?
If so, I would do everything in power to not blow it up again. Mainly for the Republic's sake.
Yeah, you and Kreia with you. She only ALMOST killed you, but the dumb b*tch then realized she would have also died. It's whatever though, she dies a hypocrite anyway.
You just had to include the HK-47 suggestion to use grenades
I do love that they went out of their way to make all 4 Jedi Masters you encounter feel distinct- Vrook is a special kind of uptight asshole, Atris is a beautiful portrait of hypocrisy, and Kavar is just the absolute bro-tier Jedi Master like Qui Gon. He's not immune to the order's flaws, but he's less of an exemplar of them than the other Masters in the game, and it makes the council feel like an interesting body of leadership for the Jedi.
What about Zez Kai Ell?
@@PapitoQinn I barely remember he exists, so I dunno.
@@parkerdixon-word6295 See if you can watch my video on him. He at least questioned if the Jedi were really right.
And what of Vash from M4-78?
@@sambridgers9543 Vash felt kind of like a big sister to the exile almost. That was the impression I got anyway.
Here's my take on the three Jedi masters:
*Master Vrook* is the embodiment of religious zealotry. To him the Jedi Order is correct, just and absolute. In his eyes the perfect Jedi is an obedient slave to the Light Side of the Force who never deviates from the order's teachings.
_Personal Note - I enjoyed seeing him die near the end of the game._
*Master Kavar* is the embodiment of family loyalty. To him the Jedi Order is family. Every Jedi is a brother, a sister, a son or a daughter. In his eyes, straying from the Jedi Order would be the same as abandoning your family. It's the reason why he went against the council's wishes and helped Meetra Surik when she joined Revan to war in the early Dxun campaigns. He didn't agree with her decision, but he couldn't abandon his "daughter" either.
_Personal Note - he's the only master I secretly hoped Kreia would spare, but alas she didn't._
*Master Zez-Kai Ell* is the embodiment of apathy. He knows that the Jedi Order is flawed but he's too afraid to do something about it. He ends up doing nothing and becoming nothing.
_Personal Note - I didn't care much for him, which is fitting now that I think about it._
Zez-Kai Ell and his inaction, I personally saw as the result of being paralyzed by fear. He chose to be a coward, I feel rather than consciously choosing not to care/ be apathetic...his self imposed Exile on Nar Shadaa using the mass of life around him to hide himself from the enemy rather than gather the Jedi to confront their threat was nothing more than a snivelling cowardice with the veneer of wisdom.
Then again, if he could not be moved to act despite the magnitude of his fear, I suppose it is a form of apathy.
Thanks for your comment. I love how this game and this story continues to pose questions and inspire discussion nearly 2 decades later.
@@ThePolandball Zez-Kai Ell is the good man who did nothing. We're all faced with such choices in life, and our decisions show what kind of individuals we are. Zez-Kai Ell was faced with such a choice when Meetra Surik returned from war to face the council. He could have easily said "Hold on guys, let's not make any rash decisions. Let's sit and think about it a little bit. What are the implications of life existing without the Force? Can we at least entertain the possibility that we are wrong? What if our teachings are flawed and Revan did the right thing?" Instead of taking the risk of challenging the council, he did nothing, said nothing, and fled to hide on Nar Shaddaa like a little bitch.
Kavar was good Jedi, but I wish he could be seen more beyond the Jedi ways of seeing the force. He might made a compelling counter balance to Kreia. Two old mentors who could see more than the surface of the force, would have been nice. But I admit Kreia is still the more compelling/complex mentor character.
Also, I am the only one who noticed Iziz Cantina music wasn't playing in the first? I swear that was Javyar Cantina music.
I record these with just the dialogue volume on. If I need sound effects I record those separately. The music I lay down myself. I made this some time ago so I don't remember if I used the music that was really playing in the location or just decided to use Javyar's Cantina.
@@PapitoQinn Papito Qinn Oh, okay that makes sense. It's easier to get the dialogue first and then add the music when your putting these vids together.
I listen to the Kotor 1 & 2 soundtrack alot on my phone, so I was just confused when heard the difference... But thanks replying and letting me know.
In my book, Kavar is young, not senile to the point where Vrook Lamar can’t walk.
4:17 those who cannot adapt will perish. Since Exar-kun's war the Jedi were static. shattered with indecisions and mired in debate. With the Mandalorian Wars proving this exact point. Kavar still doesn't understand this.
The Jedi seem to have trouble adapting or changing which seems to put them at a disadvantage with their enemies. The sith and dark jedi despite their less than desirable qualities are not afraid to try different tactics and methods.
I wouldn’t call this version of the Jedi static, more blind. They do try to adapt to what’s happening but they just aren’t seeing the signs.
Despite sharing the rest of the Council's beliefs, I think you might be my favorite master of the Old Republic council. You're pretty polite, but also awesome, given how you used your prowess as a jedi to defend the queen. Wait to stick to your relatively weak blasters while doing something efficient with them! And you would have become our master? I can certainly think of worse, even though you're no Obi Wan.
I think about all master kavar has taught me during the wars! He was my one true master yes he was truly blind that’s why we could connect so well I understand him better then any of his students ( Meetra surrik).
"There are times I'm not convinced it doesn't have a sense of humor." If Kreia is right about it having a will, that is very apt.
I kinda wish he was her master
Why's that?
ItsRyanYT fun fact he wanted to make you his padawan and say you became a guardian if you did and if you go consular or sentinal he tried to make you a guardian
I can think of worse Jedi for the job. Though Kavar was with the other masters' flawed habit of over-analyzing things, he's a very awesome guardian and had a lot of potential. He, unlike the rest of the Council, really does make the most of both his skills and his beliefs.
The problem was when the 3 discoverd what was "wrong with you" they got scare and want to put an end to you.
Worst still he didn't have any remorse or want another Alternative
Papatia Quinn is officially a Beacon for the masters!!! Her and Bastilia and mission
Meetra went back to her first master to find out what had happened since the mandalorian wars and then all at once another war breaks before they have the chance to speak!
While I never delve into the DS-side often, I still wonder when you'll upload the DS-variant of fighting Kavar on Onderon. (I already saw it via other videos already, but i'm still looking forward to your take on it regardless)
I could never do the special form
It's not hard all you do is select it
Kreia was the whole time like: 👀
Did no one tell the voice actor how to pronounce Duxon or Vrook lol?
The Dad the Exile never had 😭
HK
Master vrook always blamed us and kreia for our downfall but we were working for Malik
Anyone know the name of the song around like 1:40?
I guess its the same that plays when fighting in telos restoration zone:
ruclips.net/video/8qCDOeTiuPE/видео.html
There is also another variant which plays Onderon, but it is pretty much the same
As sympathetic as Kavar is he still agrees to end you with the rebuilt jedi council though after all the help you provided on those worlds if you follow the LS
Vrook is a strong personality.
@@PapitoQinn And Kavar probably didn't want to hear Vrook bitch about things.
Vrook most likely convinced Zez-Kai Ell it was the best course of action, to which then Kavar would be against them in a vote.
@@prosecutorwalton Vrook likely was the one who convinced them to side with him. The others seem to be somewhat more open-minded.
How u get pass 1:30 I been lost after the town tried to kill me
Well at that point you have to go back to the spaceport and leave Onderon. Then come back after you visit a different planet who haven't been to before.
Papito Qinn I been to them all before I went to onderon
AlphaWolf Official Oh dear. Well I've never done that. But I searched around and it seems that there's 2 possibilities. 1. It's time based. After flying around for a little while the message from Kelborn should trigger. 2. The moment you leave Onderon you should get the message if Onderon was your last planet.
Papito Qinn I'm gonna go with the first one since I already left and explored the sith cave but I started neutral so I can't go in yet and then I explored the crystal cave and seen ruble that want there before now I'm chilling on telos
Not you what what?
I wish you could side with Vakklu but not be forced to kill Kavar. The Vakklu route it a lot more fun IMO, but I like a full council to confront when the time comes
Some thing are just out of your control.
DA FORCE IS EEEVIL! REEE!
-Kreia
😄 I mean yeah it does suck that the Force does whatever it wants…
I want to be your friend on roblox:)