Fun fact. This is the first podcast I've ever listened to, and I already think it is the best there can be. I wanted to practice my English comprehension and enjoy a good philosophical talk but I got so much more. You guys are so lovely. Thank you ❤
I hate being the guy who's always talking about German, but etymology is so interesting. "Müßiggang" means "idleness", but its root doesn't. "Muße haben", literally "having muse", refers to a form of leisure which predisposes towards or better equips for complex thought and creativity. People will say, "Zur Zeit fehlt mir dafür die Muse", "right now, I don't have the muse for that..." The word "Gang" can mean both "gait" and "going", and one often finds "Müßiggang" connoted positively in this sense, as a sort of leisurely meandering, actually as a particularly civilised state of mind. It pops up quite a bit in Romantic literature, and is still in common usage. Perhaps this is the reason that a different word came to designate unadulterated laziness -- "faul", literally "rotten". I find it interesting that English has no word to designate a noble form of leisure. Daydreaming is supposed to be bad as well.
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy I woke up realising that this is not a reference to the muses, but rather just a quirk that it sounds the same. However, the word Müßiggang, which in one of its senses conceives of idleness as a sort of mental flaneuring, fascinates me. (There is, however, the adjective, "musisch", which does come from "muse" and refers to all the arts.)
Interesting. There's another philosophy channel, by Hans-Georg Moeller, called Carefree Wandering. I might be misremembering, but I think Moeller's explanation for the meaning behind his channel name, sounded similar to what you wrote. Just thought I'd share for anyone curious and/or familiar with some of Moeller's work.
I am having a crisis of low home-offcie productivity, so I saw the title and thought to my self 'this is for me'. So, what did I do? I listened to this episode while kinitting a winter sweater 🥰 without knowing I was going to hear, that what I was doing at the moment, was also consider by others as one of the higher expressions of leisurely lazy enjoyable time. Well, it is!
I wasn’t sure how this episode would evolve and I almost passed it up. But, it was really great. You guys do such a great job with these topics. Thank you for your hard work on laziness!
What an enjoyable podcast about laziness! Thanks for sharing! You make some interesting references to the Latin and Ancient Greek words for laziness. Actually, they used different words to capture the different nuances of meaning. The Latin pigritia that gives paresse in French has the equivalent in ocnereia in Ancient Greek. Ocnereia (οκνηρεία) < ocneros < ocneo = shirk from, I am indolent, slow. As with every quality and power the Greeks even concocted a deity Ocnos, Ocnus in Latin, who was condemned to knit endlessly a rope of straw that was being eaten by a donkey! The Greek aergia (αεργία) that is being referred to by David, is the rough equivalent of inertia in Latin. A+ergia < a+ergon in Greek (lack of work), in+ertia < in+ars (lack of skill, art) in Latin. David makes an interesting reference to Montesquieu’s climate determinism (which, by the way, is quite popular) in explaining different levels of development observed in the world. We can contrast this with the Marxist view. Marxists tried to explain the fact that certain peoples lived in a primitive communistic or communal state when Europeans had reached capitalism with an unprecedented development of the productive forces by reference to the lavishness of nature in which those peoples lived so that they did not have a strong motivation to develop their productive forces.
The points presented remind me a lot of Byung-Chul Han’s works. I’m a therapist and sometimes I recommend The Burnout Society to my clients. Now, I can add this to my resource list. Thanks!
I think there is only one angle you have not mentioned or i have missed which is the acknowledging part of laziness internally or externally. It definitely feels bad for someone to rot but when its pointed out by somebody else we usually rationalize it as a much needed 'taking a break' situation which is extremely normal for the time being! I think it differs from being an internal conflict
v1 Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It has a negative connotation, but whether ultimate blame can ever be ascribed to a person is another debate. It is particularly vicious, we could suppose, when a person, for whatever reason that may be, has made something of an attitude or rationalisation for their reluctance to do what is necessary. That we have moral imperatives and we find ourselves reluctant, or that at the very least following through is a matter of habitualisation, I think are rather uncontroversial claims, and so therein remains a foothold for the concept of laziness. v2 Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It is uncontroversial to point out that following through with achieving goals is a matter of habitualisation. People also find themselves reluctant to take action for numerous reasons which may not necessarily be rooted in 'being lazy'. However, these conditions of habitualisation and reluctance make possible a new attitude, which is the rationalisation of the reluctance itself, so as to say that a goal or imperative is not genuine if one is reluctant, or habit-building cannot be really worthwhile if habits necessarily begin unformed. It is debatable whether we could call this laziness or a lack of self-efficacy, and whether a person can ever be ultimately blamed. In any case, it does seem that if laziness does not exist, shame should not exist as a motivator, and yet it does.
Speaking of expectations regarding productivity being adjusted to accord with technological capabilities, automobiles have gotten heavier in recent decades, thus using up the savings afforded by greater fuel efficiency. As with work, less doesn't seem to be possible. I'm not even talking here about salaried work and consumption being linked because I suspect that there is something of a more anthropological nature "at work", or maybe the logic of systems theory, or whatever they call it.
To listen or not to listen to this particular podcast? Is it entertainment, is it work? In my case, I teach philosophy at college, so it could pass for work, but since I'm on a lunch break...
I think laziness exists? As in, I don’t consider rest a “lazy” activity. I think rest is very active. Anyone who has ever tried to do nothing knows how difficult and almost impossible of a task it is. And I think work and working really hard can be lazy activities. If you have been told that your worthiness is determined by how well you do in school, going to school and working really hard at school is the easiest thing in the world to do. You have literally been trained to be in school. Anything anyone has been taught to do 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for as long as they can remember, that person can do with minimal effort and ingenuity for the rest of their life. Work in this context would be not studying. Invention in this context would be developing a sense of self and a sense of self-worth outside of the parameters defined for you.
Not working is the real work. It is hard work. It is revolutionary work. Working class people throughout history have fought for leisure. Sometimes they have been organized efforts. But in most context, the work of not working was probably more casual. And I bet it required the kind of ingenuity and cunning that “work” would never require. You would have to observe your foreman’s routine and make calculations and take risks and invent stories and maybe even do improv. Give Oscar-worthy performances. It’s all work. And lazy people do exist. I think rich people are incredibly lazy. I think part of their evil is their laziness. Growing up in a patriarchal household, I associate laziness with men. And their laziness is the reason why they brought absolutely nothing to the table. Useless people who just turn oxygen to carbon dioxide. That’s all they do. But the women did a lot of work. And to their work, I associate community. They build so much with their work. And sometimes they refused to do work. And even that was so much work. There would be discussions and negotiations around work. Sometimes theatrics. Rupture and repair and rupture and repair. So much activity. So much work. And surrounded by all that activity, I have watched the men remain unchanged by time. Like growth is a distant concept. Grown ass men suspended in childhood. I have seen upper class white women suspended in adolescence. Some people are given the option to do less work and they lean into that option. I think being alive requires your active participation. I think being human requires your active participation. Empathy isn’t a passive activity. Building relationships isn’t a passive activity. And I think the voice that tells us that we are lazy needs to be validated because I think we expect to work for ourselves in a way that validates no one’s expectations but ours. Like real work. Like grunt work. Not work that sustains capitalism. But work that sustains humanity. Work that sustains the spirit. And I think we will always feel lazy until we answer that call.
@@librarysciencekp-hb7pd Consider that you may be harsh on men because of past experiences with a limited number of men. In addition men tend to talk about women and women about men with regard to frustrations. I dont pay attention to what men say about women because it amounts to firming up and exaggerating feelings. We tend to misanderstand intentions and we are under tremendous stress. When we are stressed and tired other peoples' perceived misdeeds of lack of cooperation takes on a whole new dimention. Something you could do yourself is reevaluating the demands you place on yourself. Are you a perfectionist? Should everything be clean and neat? Women tend to internalize expectations about how a home should look more easily. It may not be that men are procrastinating on neatness. That may just be not a priority. If you look at some bachelor pads, children's rooms and many households outside visites you will find that neatness is not high up in the agenda. And honestly, nor needs it be. Because visual memory is better than symbolic memory. One can find something in virtual chaos because of that. In my young days I read a book about organizing things and planning by making lists. I tried it for a while and then realized that I spend more time planning and organizing than getting things done. My wife wants everything organized in the pantry. She rearranges it in categories. Then I have no clue how to find things. Its a supremely inefficent way to access things. First you have to think about what goes under what category. That part of your brain is slow and inefficient. After some time of searching and finding I have it stored in visual memory. But see, then we buy stuff and everything is rearranged instead of putting it in open spaces. I just put it where I can find a space. Then at some point it is rearranged again. Humans are strangely capable of find things in chaos because we are "designed" to live in nature. Trust visual memory and you will save a lot of time. People tend to return things to the same spot. In addition. Share a calender app for reminders and shedule tasks on it. Your nut head partner may just not focus on things important to him. Just take his hand and walk him to a task. As soon as he starts he is likely to follow through. Just as with kids it is simply because of different priorities that there is little cooperation. Read his mind, not your own as we tend to do.
@@librarysciencekp-hb7pdI will just add your post is sensible. Part of the problem is that women had previously accepted a role of house keeper. But the pressure of work outside home now motivates them to rebel. But men do not have that motivation to change. They keep doing what they were doing and are unaware that the situation has changed. You are right about empathy. They need to see some tears and some dirty clothing when they want to dress for work before things will change. a Heads up before will stave of conflict. And in stead of accusation and conflict it is better to say "I am too tired do do this now. If you want clean clothes do the washing then I will do it next time. The big mistake is to rush to your duty.
Fun fact. This is the first podcast I've ever listened to, and I already think it is the best there can be.
I wanted to practice my English comprehension and enjoy a good philosophical talk but I got so much more. You guys are so lovely. Thank you ❤
I hate being the guy who's always talking about German, but etymology is so interesting. "Müßiggang" means "idleness", but its root doesn't. "Muße haben", literally "having muse", refers to a form of leisure which predisposes towards or better equips for complex thought and creativity. People will say, "Zur Zeit fehlt mir dafür die Muse", "right now, I don't have the muse for that..." The word "Gang" can mean both "gait" and "going", and one often finds "Müßiggang" connoted positively in this sense, as a sort of leisurely meandering, actually as a particularly civilised state of mind. It pops up quite a bit in Romantic literature, and is still in common usage. Perhaps this is the reason that a different word came to designate unadulterated laziness -- "faul", literally "rotten". I find it interesting that English has no word to designate a noble form of leisure. Daydreaming is supposed to be bad as well.
thank you for sharing!!
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy I woke up realising that this is not a reference to the muses, but rather just a quirk that it sounds the same. However, the word Müßiggang, which in one of its senses conceives of idleness as a sort of mental flaneuring, fascinates me. (There is, however, the adjective, "musisch", which does come from "muse" and refers to all the arts.)
Love this, thank you, this etymology is very useful!
Interesting. There's another philosophy channel, by Hans-Georg Moeller, called Carefree Wandering. I might be misremembering, but I think Moeller's explanation for the meaning behind his channel name, sounded similar to what you wrote. Just thought I'd share for anyone curious and/or familiar with some of Moeller's work.
@@chujiwu68 oh wow, didn't realize Moeller had a channel! We discuss his co-authored book You and Your Profile in our Authenticity episode :)
I am having a crisis of low home-offcie productivity, so I saw the title and thought to my self 'this is for me'. So, what did I do? I listened to this episode while kinitting a winter sweater 🥰 without knowing I was going to hear, that what I was doing at the moment, was also consider by others as one of the higher expressions of leisurely lazy enjoyable time. Well, it is!
I wasn’t sure how this episode would evolve and I almost passed it up. But, it was really great. You guys do such a great job with these topics. Thank you for your hard work on laziness!
What an enjoyable podcast about laziness! Thanks for sharing! You make some interesting references to the Latin and Ancient Greek words for laziness. Actually, they used different words to capture the different nuances of meaning.
The Latin pigritia that gives paresse in French has the equivalent in ocnereia in Ancient Greek. Ocnereia (οκνηρεία) < ocneros < ocneo = shirk from, I am indolent, slow. As with every quality and power the Greeks even concocted a deity Ocnos, Ocnus in Latin, who was condemned to knit endlessly a rope of straw that was being eaten by a donkey!
The Greek aergia (αεργία) that is being referred to by David, is the rough equivalent of inertia in Latin. A+ergia < a+ergon in Greek (lack of work), in+ertia < in+ars (lack of skill, art) in Latin.
David makes an interesting reference to Montesquieu’s climate determinism (which, by the way, is quite popular) in explaining different levels of development observed in the world. We can contrast this with the Marxist view. Marxists tried to explain the fact that certain peoples lived in a primitive communistic or communal state when Europeans had reached capitalism with an unprecedented development of the productive forces by reference to the lavishness of nature in which those peoples lived so that they did not have a strong motivation to develop their productive forces.
The points presented remind me a lot of Byung-Chul Han’s works. I’m a therapist and sometimes I recommend The Burnout Society to my clients. Now, I can add this to my resource list. Thanks!
We have a video on Han's Burnout Society! :)
I think there is only one angle you have not mentioned or i have missed which is the acknowledging part of laziness internally or externally. It definitely feels bad for someone to rot but when its pointed out by somebody else we usually rationalize it as a much needed 'taking a break' situation which is extremely normal for the time being! I think it differs from being an internal conflict
v1
Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It has a negative connotation, but whether ultimate blame can ever be ascribed to a person is another debate. It is particularly vicious, we could suppose, when a person, for whatever reason that may be, has made something of an attitude or rationalisation for their reluctance to do what is necessary. That we have moral imperatives and we find ourselves reluctant, or that at the very least following through is a matter of habitualisation, I think are rather uncontroversial claims, and so therein remains a foothold for the concept of laziness.
v2
Laziness without the necessary ascription of moral blame is being undisciplined. It is uncontroversial to point out that following through with achieving goals is a matter of habitualisation. People also find themselves reluctant to take action for numerous reasons which may not necessarily be rooted in 'being lazy'. However, these conditions of habitualisation and reluctance make possible a new attitude, which is the rationalisation of the reluctance itself, so as to say that a goal or imperative is not genuine if one is reluctant, or habit-building cannot be really worthwhile if habits necessarily begin unformed. It is debatable whether we could call this laziness or a lack of self-efficacy, and whether a person can ever be ultimately blamed. In any case, it does seem that if laziness does not exist, shame should not exist as a motivator, and yet it does.
Speaking of expectations regarding productivity being adjusted to accord with technological capabilities, automobiles have gotten heavier in recent decades, thus using up the savings afforded by greater fuel efficiency. As with work, less doesn't seem to be possible. I'm not even talking here about salaried work and consumption being linked because I suspect that there is something of a more anthropological nature "at work", or maybe the logic of systems theory, or whatever they call it.
The fact that I was knitting during the whole episode 😅😅
Please make an episode about education taking into consideration Bryan Caplan's ideas from his book: The Case Against Education
what is meant by concepts in philosophy? Can you please explain with examples?
To listen or not to listen to this particular podcast? Is it entertainment, is it work? In my case, I teach philosophy at college, so it could pass for work, but since I'm on a lunch break...
I think laziness exists? As in, I don’t consider rest a “lazy” activity. I think rest is very active. Anyone who has ever tried to do nothing knows how difficult and almost impossible of a task it is. And I think work and working really hard can be lazy activities. If you have been told that your worthiness is determined by how well you do in school, going to school and working really hard at school is the easiest thing in the world to do. You have literally been trained to be in school. Anything anyone has been taught to do 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for as long as they can remember, that person can do with minimal effort and ingenuity for the rest of their life. Work in this context would be not studying. Invention in this context would be developing a sense of self and a sense of self-worth outside of the parameters defined for you.
Not working is the real work. It is hard work. It is revolutionary work. Working class people throughout history have fought for leisure. Sometimes they have been organized efforts. But in most context, the work of not working was probably more casual. And I bet it required the kind of ingenuity and cunning that “work” would never require. You would have to observe your foreman’s routine and make calculations and take risks and invent stories and maybe even do improv. Give Oscar-worthy performances. It’s all work. And lazy people do exist. I think rich people are incredibly lazy. I think part of their evil is their laziness. Growing up in a patriarchal household, I associate laziness with men. And their laziness is the reason why they brought absolutely nothing to the table. Useless people who just turn oxygen to carbon dioxide. That’s all they do. But the women did a lot of work. And to their work, I associate community. They build so much with their work. And sometimes they refused to do work. And even that was so much work. There would be discussions and negotiations around work. Sometimes theatrics. Rupture and repair and rupture and repair. So much activity. So much work. And surrounded by all that activity, I have watched the men remain unchanged by time. Like growth is a distant concept. Grown ass men suspended in childhood. I have seen upper class white women suspended in adolescence. Some people are given the option to do less work and they lean into that option. I think being alive requires your active participation. I think being human requires your active participation. Empathy isn’t a passive activity. Building relationships isn’t a passive activity. And I think the voice that tells us that we are lazy needs to be validated because I think we expect to work for ourselves in a way that validates no one’s expectations but ours. Like real work. Like grunt work. Not work that sustains capitalism. But work that sustains humanity. Work that sustains the spirit. And I think we will always feel lazy until we answer that call.
did you listen to the episode? A lot of these points are addressed
@@librarysciencekp-hb7pd Consider that you may be harsh on men because of past experiences with a limited number of men. In addition men tend to talk about women and women about men with regard to frustrations. I dont pay attention to what men say about women because it amounts to firming up and exaggerating feelings. We tend to misanderstand intentions and we are under tremendous stress. When we are stressed and tired other peoples' perceived misdeeds of lack of cooperation takes on a whole new dimention. Something you could do yourself is reevaluating the demands you place on yourself. Are you a perfectionist? Should everything be clean and neat? Women tend to internalize expectations about how a home should look more easily. It may not be that men are procrastinating on neatness. That may just be not a priority. If you look at some bachelor pads, children's rooms and many households outside visites you will find that neatness is not high up in the agenda. And honestly, nor needs it be. Because visual memory is better than symbolic memory. One can find something in virtual chaos because of that. In my young days I read a book about organizing things and planning by making lists. I tried it for a while and then realized that I spend more time planning and organizing than getting things done. My wife wants everything organized in the pantry. She rearranges it in categories. Then I have no clue how to find things. Its a supremely inefficent way to access things. First you have to think about what goes under what category. That part of your brain is slow and inefficient. After some time of searching and finding I have it stored in visual memory. But see, then we buy stuff and everything is rearranged instead of putting it in open spaces. I just put it where I can find a space. Then at some point it is rearranged again. Humans are strangely capable of find things in chaos because we are "designed" to live in nature. Trust visual memory and you will save a lot of time. People tend to return things to the same spot. In addition. Share a calender app for reminders and shedule tasks on it. Your nut head partner may just not focus on things important to him. Just take his hand and walk him to a task. As soon as he starts he is likely to follow through. Just as with kids it is simply because of different priorities that there is little cooperation. Read his mind, not your own as we tend to do.
@@librarysciencekp-hb7pdI will just add your post is sensible. Part of the problem is that women had previously accepted a role of house keeper. But the pressure of work outside home now motivates them to rebel. But men do not have that motivation to change. They keep doing what they were doing and are unaware that the situation has changed. You are right about empathy. They need to see some tears and some dirty clothing when they want to dress for work before things will change. a Heads up before will stave of conflict. And in stead of accusation and conflict it is better to say "I am too tired do do this now. If you want clean clothes do the washing then I will do it next time. The big mistake is to rush to your duty.
@librarysciencekp-hb7pd not all women are neat. I'm a very disorganised messy woman
I am ordinary.
I was going to listen to this yesterday, but I was too lazy. 😅