This episode really gave me more "motivational speaker" vibes than actual diving deep into the relationship between consumerism, capitalism, and minimalism. Great questions on Chelsea's part, but the conversations had were just not at the analytical caliber I was hoping. A lot of nice-sounding ideologies about how letting go is an "art" poor people need to learn was probably the highlight of this.
Was searching for a comment saying this. The questions were fantastic but I sometimes felt they skirted around getting into the meat of the answers and it ended up being a bit like they were repeating the same lines.
For context, I work with students from poorer backgrounds on a regular basis. For many of them, they are struggling with issues like mental health, bullying, peer pressure to engage in criminal activity, illiteracy, etc. And while the system issues are causing a lot of this, many of these students are looking for practical insights from the rare number of mentors they have on how to survive, get through the week, and find a reason to keep their heads up. I’d be willing to sit down for coffee with just about anyone and have a three hour conversation on the deeper issues of sociology, economics, and politics, but when I’m on the ground my students need encouragement, empathy, empowerment, and relationship-based education on how they can cultivate some agency in their troubled lives. So I tried to focus less on abstract political theories and more on what’s actually working in the hood to get more young people to a place where they can even afford to have the kind of higher level discussions about systems. When it’s 4 of us sharing the conversation, it’s hard to go very deep because you get to make your initial point and it moves on. But I would have no problem coming back for a 1-on-1 to a deeper dive about the systemic issues I was only able to highlight here.
@@t.k.coleman5398 thanks for replying to this comment thread. Totally understand why you focus on those topics when speaking to students in schools etc. Sounds like you’re doing great work. I think viewers of this episode were just keen for you guys to delve into some deeper issues, which Chelsea did raise, but that seemed to be skimmed over a bit. You definitely touched on the systemic issues, which was great, and I wish you’d had a chance to elaborate. Appreciate it’s harder to get deep into things when the conversation isn’t one to one. Hopefully you’ll return to the show and get another chance.
I'm just 25 min in, but man these guys are doing their best to talk about consumerism, debt, etc without taking an actual stance on capitalism or class...
Yeah I actually greatly dislike these guys. They make money talking about minimalism and just say the same thing over and over and their content very much have pitched minimalism as a individual choice. Idk, their content gives me the sketch/Culty vibes. I’ve seen a decent amount of videos criticizing them too that I agree with.
It's always important to watch an entire video before coming to a conclusion like this. They talked a lot about how they believe consumerism intersects with capitalism, particularly TK. TK also seemed to align with Chelsea's criticisms of capitalism in that unregulated capitalism benefits the ultra wealthy and exploits the poor. I personally am anti capitalist, I don't believe that capitalism is the optimal way to organize resources and society however I can appreciate the importance of what TK is saying to a greater society. Just being able to question capitalism as a natural given is a very big step for most people particularly in the US.
@@TheMrsarahanne90 You see I don't really agree with that because we've been hearing that notion of capitalism since it's conception "if ony it worked well" whilst the structure is about profit over everything. So when he repeats these points too me it rings disingenuous. He then said he doesn't believe there is an unethical ammount of wealth to own, and equates wealth to value of services/product given, so like which is it? Because if he acknowledges the inequity and the issues with this capitalism, how can he think all wealth produced is "good"? or at least not morally wrong (talking about billionaires).
Yikes on the school choice comment. We need higher quality curriculum in our public schools, and to make working in our public schools a better experience for teachers and staff. There's no reason why schools in lower-income communities should be worse off than schools in higher-income neighborhoods. It is that way because of how the US funds schools with property taxes, instead of prioritizing schools in government budgets.
Totally agree! School choice is so often weaponized, we need to prioritize all public schools having the funding they need rather than allowing for parents to choose the sets of facts they believe in.
Personally, I subscribe to the Thomas Sowell view of culture defining school outcomes and culture. If you have a bunch of rich folks who don't expect and demand excellence from their educators and children, you will get bad schools.
So often I find it hard to identify with men who preach extreme minimalism lifestyles because society holds them to such a different standard than women, in almost every way. There are so many women with minimalism RUclips channels that also talk about navigating minimalism as women and/or with families. They would have been been a better fit.
I hate this so much. You divide sexes like all men are the same and are treated the same from "society". It's such a redundant mute point. You do know society is made of 4 billion women also? So who holds who to a standard? You think women aren't mean, strategic, or hold standards? Stop dividing sexes. It's so insulting and reductive. Who cares if the financial diet has men or women on? I say this and i can't stand these guys...but it's not because they have a penis...it's because of their repetitive cult like perspectives
For real, if a woman showed up with hair that looked as neglected as the brown haired man, she would not be taken seriously. TBH, same goes for Bernie Sanders. The female equivalent of him could be a professor, not get elected to public office at that level.
I agree! This conversation would be interesting with woc specifically! WOC can’t just show up looking any which way in business spaces, the micro and macro aggressions are real.
I really do think these guys have good intentions, but they just truly don’t seem to understand the lived experience of so many people. Their perspectives felt like a sermon or self help speech to me, not a real conversation about the privilege of minimalism. They way they cut you off multiple times also showed that these were rehearsed answers. This video is such a great example of why I’m so happy TFD exists. This is one of the only channels that speaks bluntly about finances, inequality, and privilege. I get so tired of the toxic positivity of male dominated podcasts and channels like theirs.
I think they used to have good intentions when they started this! But I would argue that at this point they're acting in a manner too aligned with their own self-interest that i kind of doubt that their intentions are good. Wealth can do that to people, but you can only blatantly ignore your privilege when it's clearly pointed out to you so many times.
Agreed. I do think they have good intentions, but it's like they stopped digging into the issues they experienced once they found a good 'conclusion' that worked for them and that people praised (and was lucrative). They've repeated that conclusion so many times, that it 100% reads like a sermon. I don't believe they're malintentioned, and I do think their message is positive for some people at certain moments of their lives. It's just so disappointing that they just stopped short of continuing to dig into things, learn, and listen so long ago.
I absolutely do not think that they have good intentions. I think they have sought out and succeeded in marketing themselves as the faces of (what was at the time) a new movement. They've continued to spout the same aged, not-deeply-considered statements for years now. I'm disappointed to have seen them here on this channel.
I don't think they have good or bad intentions and maybe that's a problem in itself. I think they're just here to make money and a name for themselves, regardless of what jibberish they have to serve. Yeah, it's a problem in itself... Serving empty catch phrases to your audience and suggestions they should live this way...
@Nayeli Perez "I do think they have good intentions, but it's like they stopped digging into the issues they experienced once they found a good 'conclusion' that worked for them and that people praised (and was lucrative)" Then it's not good intentions it's just exploitative... Repeating the same empty message because it's lucrative (because people try to follow it even though it's empty) is exploitative. Exploiting the willingness of people to follow an empty message to make money and clout isn't for the benefit of anyone but themselves. And it can actually be detrimental to the "followers" chasing nothingness and blaming themselves for it not working. It's clearly not coming from good intentions. Maybe at the very begining but not now.
“To not be poor you need to learn to let go.” No, dude, what I need is the MATERIAL CONDITIONS to not be poor. ie access to healthcare, a sustainable workload, affordable housing, etc. my god
Yes, learning is good too of course, but how can you start with learning as important and then not questioj the structural processes which increase or undermine your access to an education???
I'm a practicing minimalist myself, and man was I disappointed the more I listened. They just danced around the questions repeating the same things. I think you're questions were very interesting, if only someone with more creative thought would have answered them.
I used to love their podcasts 3-4 years ago when I first discovered them but you are absolutely right that they just keep repeating the same things & they have ever since they started their brand… So much actual conversation dipped but repeating the same message over & over, just in different words.
If you haven't had Shelbizzlee on, she would be great because she talks about minimalism from an eco-perspective. Less spiritual and individual, and more about the greater impacts of sustainability :)
Hearing the way they talk to Chelsea has given me an ick I've never noticed before. It's reminding me too much of how men in the corporate world have talked over me in meetings or just bullshit around a direct question without giving a real answer.
long-haired guy's sister: you have a documentary on netflix. are you rich now? long-haired guy: oh, honey, it does not work like that. his response tell you all you need to know lol.
Agree! Intelligent, thought provoking questions that were not directly answered, rather they used catch phrases and repeated the same old stuff they always talk about. I get the same thing in corporate america - sittling in meetings all day long where leadership (i.e., the "experts") dodge questions and rely on jargon and catch phrases.
I listened to this podcast on Spotify and I had to come to RUclips to read the comments immediately. Y’all did NOT disappoint haha. I felt like the whole interview, Chelsea kept asking great questions that were answered with dodgy and vague replies. I think there’s just a lack of systemic oppression and hierarchies being acknowledged by these guys. I know that they are also fans of the Dave Ramsey universe, which can also explain their over emphasis on individualism and the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality. I think they mean well and I feel like if they took more of stance on acknowledging systemic oppression, I would be more willing to get behind their message. Great job on this interview, TFD, regardless of how well the guests answered your questions.
They were even dodging their own success. They got defensive about the t-shirts and really condescending about landing a contract with Netflix. They give the impression of success, but don’t want to claim it. It feels disingenuous.
Agree. Chelsea asked great questions and seemed interested in fostering a back and forth but they felt oddly defensive in their responses, although they managed to avoid the tone itself being defensive.
Also the one guy quoted the book Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn without attribution (“buying stuff we don’t need to impress people we haven’t met”)
I had to stop after he essentially said you can work your way out of poverty… sometimes you in fact can’t girlboss your way out of things and my simple pleasures once a week won’t actually make that much more of a difference
I don’t believe you can work your work out poverty as if work is some kind of guarantee that promises you wealth no matter what. I talked about work as one of the elements in our locus of control. And I talked about how I work with students to teach them the economic principles that can optimize their ability to work smarter. This is something that can improve everyone’s life, but like I said on the show…that doesn’t mean everything will be easy nor does it mean there are no systemic issues you have to deal with.
Oh boy, this is a wild contrast to TFD's normal content. Good on TFD and Chelsea give yourself a little treat for putting up with this boss bro hustle culture libertarian disaster.
I think that one of things you overlook is that yes, more wealthy people are wearing simpler clothing with smaller jewelry. However, someone who is high income in tech or finance might be wearing $500 jeans or a woman wearing a simple gold necklace with small stones that costs thousands of dollars even though it is very subtle. Look at clothes from the row or other similar brands. They are still spending, and still signaling to one another, it's just not as flashy.
I wear pretty much only plain tee shirts and don't own many of them coz 'minimalism' but I get holes in them in a couple months and have to replace. I feel like this is something don't talk about but when you own less things you wear them out faster. There is a cost involved one way or another. It's hard to feel glamorous in holey tee shirts, shoes that are worn through and threadbare knickers haha
@@GeorgiaWilson99 have you ever repaired them? one of my smaller anti consumerist rebellions is darning. I even mended a hole in some jeans last night. its not as hard as it looks :)
@@GeorgiaWilson99 I own about ten T-shirts because of minimalism, and a large part of keep a minimal wardrobe is making sure you've got stuff that's going to last: Buy It For Life overlaps quite nicely with minimalism. In this case, American Apparel or Uniqlo make some excellent plain T-shirts that have lasted me for the last six years.
@@zenspeed404 I still wear some Petit Bateau t-shirts which I bought over 20 years ago, only line dried and also my grand-mother’s nightgowns which date at least 80 years back. All my bed and table linen is antique French linen, indestructible. And my Barbour jacket faithfully rewaxed each summer and patched if needed is 30 years old.
"it's crony capitalism and corporatism, not capitalism" as soon as I hear someone say anything resembling that phrase I feel comfortable disregarding anything they have to say about economics - it quickly shows me that their understanding of economics is only made up of baseless catchphrases. No one with a thorough understanding of economics could honestly say our economic problems are anything other than a natural outgrowth of the core principles of free market ideology.
Thank you so much for this comment. These guys are absolutely libertarians but that political ideology has so much baggage they won't commit to the label. Everything he said about 'crony capitalism' and 'school choice'. It's literally taking me back to arguing with libertarians on tumblr.
I used to follow the minimalists but stopped a few years ago and WOW do I see so much better through their bullshit now that started the minute they started talking. They have zero new perspectives or new stories since they started years ago and the nuance of Chelsea's questions consistently went completely over their head. Every answer sounds like they're just playing back a recording of something that slightly fits the question. Almost impressive how they didn't grow at all in at least 5 years.
I 100% agree Chelsea's questions requiring nuanced discussions on a variety of matters definitely went straight over there heads .I also used to watch them and stopped after a month because I found their content lacked depth or any change.
Ditto. I went hard into minimalism when I first started, now I just stick to shelbizzle and Madeline Olivia. They're a far more realistic type of minimalism. Like a be mindful of what you buy, but have what you want in your life. If you want a 100 books because thats what makes you happy, then have them.
They were ducking and dodging Chelsea’s questions like George Bush dodging shoes. It’s giving corny and out of touch. Also, that diversity “joke” was uncomfortable… But kudos to Chelsea for sticking on them even when it was clear that they weren’t going to give any real answers, lol
Love the min guys for what they started but they sure dodge the question about how the Zucks and software bros made min tshirts a status symbol. The correct answer to that was “yeah, the Silicon Valley guys CO-OPED the min look and vulgarized it.”
"We are not a brand, we are just some human beings that come together with a common cause". That is the equivalent of "we are not a business, we are a family". Also, the AUDACITY to say that given the very heavy marketing these guys wrap themselves into, is just beyond me.
I followed these guys a few years ago and I did learn a few things about intentionality and meaningful living. But in the last couple years, I don't find they provide any value or novelty in their discourse that I didn't already gain years ago. And in fact, I now find them preachy by repeating the same catch phrases and anecdotes and I find I'm gravitating more towards conversations about what and how individual struggles mean on a social level. I try to not bash things I once gained value from but wow they were robotic and canned and just have a conversation for fuck's sake. Also, the whole advertisements suck thing, sure ads are annoying but then they put their maximal episodes behind a pay wall and hide that by virtue signaling that they're too good for ads. Stop trying to pretend you're too good for money.
Literally! I haven't followed these guys, but I have used different tools of minimalism over the years, I was really excited for a productive conversation about the intersection of minimalism and financial responsibility on a large scale as well as an individual level. That is NOT what we got. Very disappointing.
100% agree. i watched their documentary when it first came out and a lot of what they said about living with intentionality is what i appreciated. now it just feels largely icky because i've learned that my desire to live intentionally doesn't mean i have to go without.
Totally agree. I had listened to their podcast from the start, and I stopped around the time Josh shared that he takes the labels off his TOMS shoes so folks won't know what brand he's wearing. I remember thinking, "But you'll share the brand with tons of podcast listeners? Like way more people than would see your shoes in Missoula, MT?" Around the same time they started talking really negatively/dismissively about Missoula (a place I love) and I heard from one of their local group coordinators that they had basically just blown him off when they went to the city he lived in while on a speaking tour. They definitely got too big for their britches.
I had the same reaction. I felt they were scripted and working to hard to stick to their brand message and it didn't work for a podcast format. I followed these guys a few years ago and mid-way through watching this was thinking theres something off about this "conversation"
Glad this episode exists despite it being very difficult to watch because it puts The Minimalists on full display. I used to be a fan of the two of them until they kept cycling through the same individualistic points. If the conversation isn't evolving and you are no longer approaching the topic of minimalism from new angles or with nuance, why keep going? It felt as though they tried to come onto the podcast to debunk Chelsea's points, but it seemed as though they were talking to their own audience and had no interest in actual dialogue. What does community driven minimalism or anti consumerism look like? What happens after I get rid of the things that don't make me happy? How can a community of people work together to address this "mental clutter"? I think many of us have evolved to be more critical of our personal consumption, especially because minimalism had its boom a few years ago. We have passed the point of the personal anecdotes of looking around and noticing all of the stuff making us miserable. The conversation has to evolve from there and these guys just don't seem to have an interest in doing that.
The Minimalists frustrate me in a lot of ways. As others have said in the comments section, I much prefer Marie Kondo's method, which feels so much more personalized (and actionable!), as well as compassionate and based on joy rather than rules or moral high grounds.
Minimalism is not based on rules or moral high grounds. It's based on finding what is meaningful to you - exactly like Marie Kondo. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean you need to dismiss it.
I do not think Marie Kondo's message is minimalism. She seems like the majority of women who are talking about decluttering, systems, and organizing. She is talking about what sparks joy and not going that deep. I think certain types of people are drawn to her method because they are operating from more feelings-based and not logic and do not want to go into a place of substance internally.
as someone who grew up in the 90s in Eastern Europe, had to pack about 100 pounds of anything (clothes, electronics, shoes, cosmetics, etc) to move to another country, and who has been extremely broke for some time in the past (to a point of not eating every day), I can say with confidence I - I am not a minimalist. A new shirt does make me happy, a new house device does make me happy, a new perfume does make me feel nice. A new shop with affordable fashion does make me like my life more. I'm not letting anyone shame me for loving things money can buy.
Just the fact that one of them showed up without bothering to brush his hair demonstrates that they have no idea what Chelsea is talking about when she suggests that people spend money on their clothes, etc to communicate competence. I'd love to see it the other way around, Chelsea in sweatshirt, no makeup and just woke up hair and the three of them in suits. Maybe that would communicate the point. These guys are an irritation.
It's definitely giving "privilege of someone given the benefit of the doubt a lot." Poor Ryan. He doesn't/didn't usually look that frizzy in previous videos. I think maybe he took a shower actually but didn't use any conditioner because that's how my (bleached) hair looks after a shower and air dry with no conditioner. 😆
I swear this has to be a cultural thing I don't understand. The need to own expensive clothes, to have an expensive car or expensive watch, I cannot conceptualize in my head a world that would care or acknowledge that what someone owns as the measure of success. From my first job working minimum wage all the way through to my current job, I've never shown up to an interview in more than a polo shirt and slacks. The most expensive or annoying item of clothing I had to buy for work was a dress shirt worth about $40. When I watch videos where people describe the issues with keeping up appearances and outwardly displaying success I honestly feel like I'm through the looking glass, observing a world I do not understand. Maybe someone can help me understand...
If you are white and male yeah you can show up to any interview and any job and be assumed to be competent and be given respect wearing just a polo. Unfortunately women and people of color don’t have the luxury to just show up being “themselves” in a polo shirt. We have to work harder, dress sharper, and show results to actually be given respect and considered competent.
@@Sony4Ever321 Genuinely, this might be the reason, but even this feels alien to me. I've been in charge of interviewing for new positions before and these types of thoughts never cross my mind. This could be a result of the type of jobs I've had and work I've done in the past, but I have had jobs in offices where I was the only guy and this still didn't happen. It's still possible I've been considerably lucky not only with my career but with the women I've worked with, and I know this toxicity exists because people keep talking about it and their experiences, but on a fundamental level, I do not understand the type of thinking that leads to this type of generalized persecution - that people would be judgemental like this, it boggles the mind.
I agree. And, for what it’s worth, I was deeply evangelical when I was also deeply into minimalism, and I think the two really thrive together (though I didn’t see these guys until I was well into it myself, it was a Christian mommy blogger who exposed me to the idea of minimizing in the first place). I don’t know what to do with that knowledge, but it’s interesting to think about.
The LAST response I expected to the softball question "What policy do you advocate for, which would help make strides decreasing consumerism?" is SCHOOL CHOICE? So out of left field. Not sure if they're aware they sound like the embodiment of the problems Chelsea has with these minimalist influencers... (I'm only 30 minutes in, but I highly doubt they'll suddenly discover class consciousness in the last half)
If you live in a state that experiences all four seasons, then your journey to minimalism is a bit more complicated because you need a wardrobe that’s warm enough for -2° windchill and cool enough for 98° heat.
YES! I have lost a lot of weight and the money I’m spending to replace my wardrobe is real. I need a coat for -5 degrees and work clothes for commuting in 90 degrees. Those of us that live in extreme climates NEED more clothes.
Add having a working farm AND full time off the farm jobs. 😁 I still try to only have what we need and *truly* want. May the people who think less of us because we don't have the latest and greatest be damned.
Yes! I was thinking of something similar. I live in Texas now but spent most of my life in the Northeast and needed a variety of types of clothes, as well as both dress clothes and casual clothes because I work in a field where I need to dress at least business casual.
6 days ago, there was an episode about Imposter Syndrome. It isn't an understatement that men typically don't feel Imposter Syndrome; and these guys are a reflection of that. There are a lot of Men who don't apologize for making a large amount of money to the extent that it comes off unattached to systemic societal failings. Geezus, I cringed at the majority of their responses. They were definitely not ready to have a deeper conversation about minimalism intersecting with capitalism at the level Chelsea expected. They just focused on their feelings as post poor then rich corporate dudes. Who I'm sure after selling homes and belongings while "becoming minimalists"; were able to get a good return on those items. This is also why after following a few people in the Finance space; I always count on and stick with Chelsea's or rather The TFD approach. Which is actually nuanced, honest and realistic. Edit. Just wanted to add that I am a Male subscriber, as my username doesn't easily suggest my gender.
I'm barely halfway, and I honestly can't finish. The questions aren't being answered directly, they're being used as starting off points to regurgitate older concepts and quotes we've already heard a thousand times. I can't listen to JFM blow smoke up his own arse anymore. His speech is so rehearsed, and just the way he gazes at the camera and pauses part way through his sentences to really "hit home" what he feels are such meaningful words...it just makes me cringe too much. I was really hoping this would be a casual, down to earth conversation, where they would directly respond to your questions Chelsea, lol. It's the same old same old, in my opinion. Thanks for trying, we appreciate you and TFD! Edit - After thinking a bit more about some of the things said here, I have to say this episode had so many cringe worthy moments coming from TM, the diversity comment being most ridiculous imo. But the whole thing really just clarifies how out of touch they are when held up against the backdrop of current social issues. It's glaring. The way TFD doesn't shy away from anything is so refreshing, and I really value your content.
@@hunniebun6240 I agree with you! I'm also really tired of the lack of intersectionality in their content. That weird defensive comment "clarifying" that having TK with them isn't tokenism?!.....*cringe*
I’m only 45 minutes in but the privilege of these men seems to be really blinding them to the realities of class differences and some of the points that Chelsea has made. They seem to be speaking many good points but it misses accepting the realities of poverty.
@@TheWillRogers that’s absolutely what they are. Their sole focus and income is…minimalism. It gives “making success from selling courses in how to build success” vibes
I'm not busy because I've allowed my life to get "out of control." I'm busy because I'm a full-time college student who has to work in a shitty workplace market to pay my rent and scrape by while I claw my way to a better future! Eff off with this victim blaming.
Yeah, I was listening to this while hand-washing dishes (I am a major consumer because I want a dishwasher) before working on a grad paper, so I can potentially make more money so I can get a dishwasher. My busy "out of control" is working towards a better life (with a dishwasher, and a bed instead of a futon).
Yeah I’m not busy because I lack control over my life. I’m busy because I’m a single mom with kids in two different schools to meet their learning needs, I work full time in a hybrid job, I have a dog and I keep space in my life for hobbies and relationships. My time is stretched thin not because my life is out of control but because my life is full.
Exactly. Life has changed drastically for most people during the last 5 years but the Minimalists are still living like it's 2015. Really out of touch.
What an absolute privilege to acquire all the things that people dream of (house with more bathrooms than people, etc) only to have/make the choice the choice to reject them and STILL use that to make money. Absurd.
45 minutes in and despite excellent pointed questions from Chelsea, these guys have yet to say... Anything. "Consumption won't fill the void" yeah but even non-minimalists know that, at least philosophically. But sometimes "the void" was created by a $300,000 hospital bill. Will not buying knick knacks and saving $300/year fill that void?
Sometimes the knick knacks are the only things keeping people from jumping into the void those hospital bills left behind. It feels like they refuse to even consider that.
Consumption could easily cause the relatively modest cost of health insurance seem out of reach, leading to a 300,000 liability. How is "consume what you need, and not be tied to what you want, and you'll probably have enough" so controversial?
I totally get why TFD had these guys on and I do think it demonstrated ~a point~ about this flavor of minimalism being tone deaf to class consciousness, but I would love to see a "minimalist" guest whose political & economic ideologies are more aligned with TFD. I saw Shelbizleee or the AfroMinimalist suggested in some comments, I think that would make an interesting contrast to this episode.
*tone deaf, and yes I absolutely agree. They're completely out-of-touch. You can tell that they're too focused on sticking to the script (which they constantly repeat in every interview). This is why they dodged so many of Chelsea's questions, bc they don't have a prepared response, so we're being fed one big word salad of hollow platitudes instead.
Shelbizleee would be amazing (been watching her since her "dumpster diving" days!), but how completely even more amazing would be the AfroMinimalist because she doesn't already have a YT platform like Shelbizlee!
"The only handcuffs we know today are the golden handcuffs, the guy making 250k and they're like 'i'm swimming in money I have too many things how do i deal with having so much stuff and not knowing what to do with all my bank' ." I don't think I've ever heard golden handcuffs described this way. Every time I've heard of golden handcuffs it's for people who make decent money for their locale, are miserable at their well-paying jobs, but have children, medical debt, student loans, and a predatory mortgage loan, that removes the option for them to quit their job.
Same. If they "didn't know what to do with their money" they would more than likely just quit after investing a few years. But they usually have bills and familial obligations so they know exactly what to do with the cash lol. Honestly it seems like a projection from them 🤷🏾♀️
I think they defined it that way because they're wealthy and can't relate to most of society in that way. It almost sounds like they think they're the victims of a golden parachute, which is backwards 😅
Correct. Golden handcuffs was explained to me years ago as making just enough money that you're comfortable at a job you hate or don't find challenging and taking a pay cut to change jobs would alter your state of stability.
Golden handcuffs is definitely used in this way in Silicon Valley, where I live. Many tech employees here are promised hefty stock, but get it in allotments over a few years, hence the “golden handcuffs” that keep them on the job that is stressful. Perhaps there are several meaning but that is the predominant one here so clearly there is variation.
EXACTLY!!! They were so frustrating to listen to. I hung in there, but ultimately they didn't say anything other than what's already in their books, and didn't seem to be answering the questions in a genuine way.
Well, I did mention that our current market is exploitative in that it artificially hinders the poor and allows certain people to game the system via unfair policies. This comment was about the first step in teaching students how to understand what gets you paid in an entrepreneurial and employment context. It’s not a denial of systemic issues. We have to acknowledge both things, not one thing at the expense of everything else. There are real economic principles at work and we can leverage them to improve our lives. Also, there are real unfair policies at work that compromise our full potential for economic flourishing. I acknowledged both elements here.
I have followed Josh and Ryan off and on for years now. I am so tired of hearing them rehash the exact same language over and over again in their documentaries, books, lectures, podcast, interviews, etc. The lack of authenticity is astounding; it sounds so rote. I appreciate Chelsea trying to push them, but man, it all just sounds like a marketing machine rather than answers to thoughtful questions.
I don’t really care about the labels. Saying “I hate capitalism” or “I love capitalism” isn’t what’s going to change the world. I care about the ideas, intentions, and incentives behind the labels. I was clear with Chelsea that I agreed with the criticisms of capitalism she made. I simply differed on my semantics (ie cronyism, corporatism). But we can use whatever label people wish. The point I made on the show, however, was that capitalism as she understood it was “rightly demonized.” I don’t recall defending evil and exploitation, but I do recall pointing out how our current economy unfairly disadvantages people through policies that have been gamified by many big players.
On the show, I actually said we shouldn’t try to compare those things. I talked about how letting go is only beneficial if you’re letting go of something that’s holding you back. I mentioned that this process has to look different for everyone based on where they are.
I've been so busy (not by choice) that I literally haven't had the opportunity to mourn my own mother's death. My husband works two jobs and I can't get the childcare I need to have space so I'm exhausted. That's what non physical clutter looks like.
Lol And you haven't just gotten rid of all that non physical clutter?! Why ever not? Don't you know it's keeping you in the position you're in financially? Obviously I'm being sarcastic. These guys are so full of shit.
I'm sorry for your loss. I hope you get the time you need, somehow. Systemic change and support structures like subsidised childcare/ family leave are lacking. These 'minimalists' have really minimised the real unpaid labour and support women like you contribute to society. The individualist mindset they promote is so short sighted and they bring zero insight to TFD viewers
I’m sorry you’re having a rough time as well. I don’t believe that people like you are suffering because you’re choosing to suffer. I believe people like you need support, encouragement, and help from real people who genuinely care. I don’t think you should allow anyone to make you feel condemned for your struggles.
i swear i’ve heard the same minimalism origin story from these guys about twenty times… my eyes rolled so far back into my head 🙄 all they say seems to be a script and once again, minimalism without politics and the material conditions to even THINK about getting rid of things is such an empty priviledged concept! i went through a minimalism phase when i was about twenty and consumed a lot of their content. flash forward 7 years and their message remains exactly the same? lmao
right? I def see value in the Marie Kondo style of only owning what sparks joy but these guys feel like total grifters. Why do they speak with the cadence of a TED Talk when they’re supposed to be having a conversation? Why have they made multiple documentaries with the same purpose and reused anecdotes?
There’s a difference between finding spiritual benefits in owning less things, than trying to not-buy your way out of poverty. Yes it can help you financially to not buy so much, but there are also deeper and more complex issues when it comes to poverty, especially when it is generational. And there’s a difference between people who study poverty, the effects of it and how to leave it, and people who advocate minimalism.
I honestly don't like these guys take on minimalism. Some of their ideas I agree with: learning to redefine what we think is successful and valuable. But I really hate the "entrepreneur" discourse meshed up with minimalism. Entrepreneurship is about "the grind", is about working hard to get ahead of everyone else. It's about the individual. The figure of the hard working entrepreneur it's just another toxic capitalistic idea. It's honestly funny how these guys just avoid talking about the privilege, class and economic inequality.
If I had too much stuff from a high paying job, becoming a minimalist by throwing stuff out would be easy, lol. I think this is the wrong audience. They should talk to bored millionaires.
Although it looks like the majority of us felt like they didn’t really answer the questions and almost seemed scripted. I give them credit for participating in this and hopefully this will push them to analyze their stance on important topics like inequalities within our systems.
I’m definitely trying to learn more from this perception. I totally get people not liking or agreeing with an answer, but I thought I addressed everything she asked. The challenge with interviewing 3 people, however, is that there isn’t as much time to do the usual follow-ups, counterpoints, or requests for clarification on each answer like we see in 1-on-1 interviews. I enjoyed the questions and wished we could have dived in deeper.
Wow It's like they don't even HEAR the questions but go ahead and use the key words to repeat some memorized discourse, they were not here to debate or have a conversation, but to preach. Super annoying and counterproductive because I think the questions were really good and insightful!
Yes! They keep talking in these long winded stories and I forgot what her questions originally were. I think that’s the test to how focused the response is to her actually questions
51:00 T.K lost me when he said that wealth is a reward for creating value and that there's not a morally wrong amount of money to make because he didn't address why they might be making that billion. He missed the opportunity to address companies evading taxes and their poor excuses for doing so.
When I said “there’s not a morally wrong amount of money to make,” that’s not the same thing as saying “there’s no such thing as an immoral strategy for making money.” I don’t endorse being a paid assassin or a fraudulent hedge fund manager for instance. I was simply saying that you can’t accuse a person of being good or bad solely based on the amount of money they make. It wasn’t a denial of the fact that some people make wealth through illegal and immoral means.
These guys have effectively put me off minimalism. Is there someone talking about minimalism from a class conscious perspective? That would be a great guest
Every time Chelsea asked a question I was like ”uu this is so good, I want to hear an answer or at least a discussion around this”… but nope, these guys managed to use their memorized lines and completely avoid answering any questiosn. These guys have the same stories and anecdotes for a decade, I used to listen to them years ago, and I hoped they will bring something new to the table by now. But nope, same divorce and mom died story. Very disappointed with the conversation. Kudos to Chelsea to trying to get something out of it until the last minute.
People talk about minimalism like it's a groundbreaking new idea, but in fact most people throughout the history (and possibly today) have been more minimalist than Matt D'Avella. Buying or making a small number of items and using them as long as possible has always been the norm.
Yeah… I live in China and their savings rate is incredibly high. They often wear the same 3-4 items of clothing over and over. Apart from the flashy new rich, the vast majority of the 1.4 billion plus people here use and reuse things forever and need very little. Even my wealthy private school students wore the same clothes every few days, nearly every Chinese person I’ve met has a reusable water bottle they bought for $5-10 years ago, and they simply don’t need very much. It’s a sharp contrast to two aspects of the culture (the cheap mass-market products they send back to the States & the largesse displayed in buffets) more often mentioned.
This episode helped me to appreciate all of the amazing elevated conversations Chelsea has had on previous episodes with amazing women and men who are more down to earth 😁
I’ve listened to these guys a bunch over the past decade or so and they never say anything new; It’s just their TED talk rehashed, often using the exact same words and phrases. I could have told several of the anecdotes myself.
These guys talk like life coaches and scammy gurus. I thank my dog because she pressed the remote as she knew I wasn't enjoying this ep. Hope the next guests talk like normal human beings like most of the guests do.
Loving The Minimalists slander in the comments 😂These guys couldn't answer a single question Chelsea threw at them. And if I have to hear Josh and Ryan tell that goddamn origin story one more time, I'm going to throw my phone at the wall 😒
Hi Chelsea! I have follow this channel for years, even tho i am from Argentina and some of the content doesn´t apply here, i really love learning about the topics in your videos. I have notice something for a few years and i want to tell you, you are so incredible talented. the way you express your ideas and the amazing energy you put into the interviews is really special. Thank you and your team for giving us such amazing content! ♥
I first found the minimalists during an awful time in my life and they really helped me to change my outlook. Over time their podcast just became the Josh show and he preaches this same thing word for word each time and doesn’t let Ryan get a word in edgeways.
Omg yes! I'd also noticed this but couldn't exactly put my finger on it. Like why?? I don't understand that dynamic, like the need for it to be the Josh show and Ryan's ability to just take it. They used to have more conversations that I enjoyed at the early days of the podcast and living room conversations.
And also I agree I found the RUclips minimalism culture like 5 years ago when I really needed it and it helped me a lot. I've integrated it into my life, but I'm past these guys in their current form.
And that's essentially what minimalism is supposed to be -- making sure that the things you keep are the few things you can be sure let you live your best. But minimalism has fallen prey to lifestyle marketing. It's why I avoid minimalist influencers and practice alone.
Also 54:30 - he suddenly was able to make do with a 90% pay cut after starting the minimalists, but didn't he say he got a divorce and his mom died immediately before he started the company? Sure is easier to earn less when you've come into inheritance and someone else is looking after your kids....
God it's so bizarre to watch - it really hits home how little they understand the point of view she's coming from. Comes across like they've never been made to feel inferior in their entire lives
I think these guys are good at speaking to people who have some macho pride. Maybe they meet these guys where they’re at? Building generational wealth requires a minimalist mindset though? Huh?
For me, I spoke from the mindset of someone who works with students from poor backgrounds who are fighting against incredible odds just to survive. And these students don’t care about our pity for them or for the hatred we pronounce at the system. They care about our willingness to get involved with their lives and empower them with perspectives and practical tools they can use to keep their head above water. Poor people are people too and they all have things they’re struggling to let go. So when I talk about people who are disadvantaged, I wasn’t trying to sound virtuous. I was sharing, at a very introductory level because of time, things that are actually working in their real lives.
The problem I have with minimalism isn't what it preaches, but what it ignores. It individualizes problems that are pretty systemic. Consumerism is a cultural and systemic issue not just an individual issue and while you do have agency, it isn't that can be fixed with just individual choices and it's a part of a larger problem. This interview is very indicative of that, every time Chelsea asked poignant questions they kept deflecting to individual choices.
i consider myself a minimqlist and i 100% agree with this! mininalism has helped me to personally unlearn some consumerist mi dsets i had but the problem of consumersim is so much larger than personal choices. the system itself incentivises unhealthy company practices and conseumerism. The system needs to change!
"letting others emergency become our urgency" being the cause of calendar clutter and that being something we can and should aspire to control feels like the sort of thing only a single, well to do, childless, man could ever believe. A single parent working several hourly jobs doesn't get to just curate their obligations to the people around them. I feel like their rhetoric supports the individual actions form of problem solving while ignoring any systemic problems. They make minimalism look bad.
I'm so sorry this wasn't a good back and forth. It felt more like 3 vs 1 and it irks me how privilaged they sound. I liked minimalism one time in my life but not anymore.
I disagree, it felt like she knew what she was walking into. She also did not do many follow up questions even when they ignored the question. I thought she did a great job of asking a great pointed question then letting each of say ... nothing for a few minutes. Then she would ask a different pointed question.
I’d be happy to do a 1-on-1 with Chelsea and I’d be happy to take all the hard questions. She mentioned that she never did an interview with 3 people before, so it was a new experience for all of us. It’s kind of hard to go deep into follow-ups and objections when three people are being interviewed. But I would be more than willing to tackle whatever tough questions and follow-ups people feel like we were running away from. I think these conversations are important and I wouldn’t want anyone feeling like we dodged their questions.
I started following the minimalists years ago. I like them well enough, I think I have read all the books they’ve released. With that said, I think that they have a very simple message, and have to really stretch it to turn this into a career haha. Minimalism is different for everybody, and it’s something that ebbs and flows within ourselves. The concept has been very powerful for me.
Yep she's awesome. Granted a lot of her content can be repetitive (what's this year's most eco friendly water bottle and such) but she does dive into things, while also trying to meet ppl where they're at with some basic introductory ideas. There's also much less philosophizing. She also reaches across the board- I found her from Minimalish Erica Lucas' channel, who's a conservative homeschooling military wife.
Oh Chelsea. My facepalm hurts. The Bootstrap Bros don't even realize how out of their league you are. You were amazing and offered so many thoughtful, nuanced questions and they responded with nothing but vague platitudes.
I tried to watch their documentary a year ago or so, and shut it off very early on because it made me incredibly anxious. Now watching this, I completely see why. I’ve been doing low waste and decluttering for years and they did not feel genuine to me at all.
the first one wasn't bad as a basic, over view level introduction to minimalism, most likely due to the fact that it was mostly guest speakers. the second one tho...i did not like the tone, even the cadence of speaking (like are you trying to be over dramatic or just preachy like on a podium), and they were trying to so hard to sell their rags to riches story (or rather rags to riches to minimalist enlightenment story) but it just felt so fake. like that fake kind of trying to be deep. it didn't hit me until recently that the thing that bothers me about them now is they haven't bothered to evolve beyond the "just get rid of things"
Them saying that you "don't need to feel guilty" for having to buy/own a suit+tie if you need it for work... NO ONE THAT SITUATION APPLIES TO FEELS GUILTY! People are having trouble affording & financially justifying it even though it is a necessity for being taken seriously in a lot of fields. Tf??
It’s actually both. People’s lives are tough AND many of them feel guilty and ashamed about it. I’ve helped thousands of people prepare for job interviews and you’d be surprised how many of them are relieved to be given a perspective that says “you don’t need to feel guilty.” That’s not the only problem, but it’s a real problem.
This was painful to watch. Chelsea did great, but these guys are out of touch. Minimalism can be a great message, but it’s nothing more than another thing to consume when you make it a brand and market it to sell.
“I don’t think there’s a morally wrong amount of money to make” Well, if you make it exploiting people’s labor and a finite amount of natural resources, yes, there is. And I would argue that no obscene amount of wealth can be made without doing at least one of the two. Since the dude is so into education, he should probably read some more on the history of labor under capitalism.
I think the philosophy of "Let go of stuff you don't need - if it's not making you happy then you don't have to keep it in your life" is honestly really nice! I like that a lot, but some of this seemed like they were taking some of it to a level where it really was just tone deaf and unrealistic. Also, Igotta say, I'm REALLY not a fan of the "school choice" things he said. Firstly, yes, it is illegal to send your kid to the wrong school district. The reason that nost ppl would want to do that in the first place is because the school where you currently go is underfunded, not because they just like it. Also, the fact of the matter is that some parents choices suck. Sending your kid to a school that says Noah's ark is a historical event that happened or refuses to teach their kid about sex ed or the existence of birth control or that racism is not a thing that exists is an extreme disservice to that child and the children around them. "Expanding parents choices" is usually just code for "i don't want my kid to learn this thing that I disagree with regardless of how factual it is".
Their scripted-ness makes me cringe so hard. They say the same exact things every single time they speak anywhere. It’s like they’re on a constant TED Talk loop.
These guys really beat around the bush while pretending they’re not. They are not directly answering the more challenging questions, and it seems like they are being defensive, veiled in vague inspirational language and cool-guy personas. Their statements betray them - they say they don’t think they’re better than others, but go on to disparage the foods that most people people eat with judgmental language and paint themselves the saviors who brought veggies to the food dessert. It has a real “fun-guy pastor does mission trip” vibe. Some years back I learned about and began using minimalism as a tool to make my life more manageable. The Minimalists were blowing up back then, and I did find them helpful. But after a while they just started to sound so hallow and weird.
I don’t know about them… I think they missed quite a few of the points Chelsea brought up. Ultimately minimalism is a privilege to an extent because choosing to opt out of something whatever your motives may be is an option only afforded to people who have enough to be able to make that option. I understand it’s also a practice / mindset that anyone regardless of their socioeconomic status is can apply or follow to ultimately ‘simplify’ their lives. They give off very culty vibes.
I'm a big advocate for minimalism specially because people take it very literally when it comes to the actual numbers. and yet I have to agree that these guys are just terrible examples and role models. But I'm not surprised that white cishet men don't have the awareness or emotional intelligence (or education tbh) to talk about minimalism from an intersectional pov. Even I could've done a better job at that lmao
Interesting interview. They made some good points about not using material possessions as a surrogate for pursuing true happiness, and not letting others dictate what success should look like for you. But they definitely approached the topic from the personal responsibility, self-help perspective where the onus is entirely on the individual to repudiate overconsumption. A more interesting positon (and one TFD generally does well!) would be to look at the capitalist structures in place that benefit from everyone consuming as much as possible.
I have about 23 minutes left and pretty sure I’m not going to finish it. If I go any further I’m sure I’ll hear a Patrick Bateman monologue at some point. I listen to the podcast and like some of the others I had to come on here to read the comments. These guys sound overly-rehearsed to the point where they’re not engaging directly with most of Chelsea’s well thought out, fair questions. Proof that the squeaky clean vibe does start to feel slimy at some point. I’m going back to the Drew Gooden minimalism video for some catharsis
The guy who said "The layer cake of consumerism" and described it as having "dragged our habits from childhood forward", what he's *actually* describing is an example (just one of many, many more) of what's known as *"the hidden injuries of class."* The idea that you have to have the "right image" (i.e. be young and preferably male, not be physically disabled, live in the "right" neighborhood, have a college degree from a "target" school, drive the "right" car, etc.) in order to be "worthy" of the good-paying job you need in order to NOT be poor, homeless, starving, without healthcare, etc. is classist, ableist, ageist *and* male supremacist at its core.
Geography is huge in Alaska. If you live outside the city, you need a car that can handle snow and haul trash because we don't have pickup out here. But still, it is possible to reduce the stuff in our lives.
I love TFD, but this is right up with the Gretchen Rubin interview as far as the guests' complete refusal to live in reality or to operate with any emotional intelligence whatsoever. Yikes
Tbh, I don’t think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Minimalism is an overly individualized, unrealistic solution for at least the poorest half of the US who are mostly frugal by necessity and not choice but it still has a lot to teach those of us who earn 1.5x, 2x, or even 3x the median income. I live in a tech-heavy city and let me tell you, the number of people I run into who say they “barely survive” on $90k/yr, $100k/yr, even $150k+/yr is absolutely bonkers. These are people who really need to hear that minimalism can be an empowering choice. These guys though…they seem to think this is a choice accessible to everyone and that’s very cringe.
I think the cringe factor of these guys and their inability to acknowledge their class privileges is so very glaring to most people. That’s certainly true for me. This totally removes the spotlight from any worthwhile points they and the larger minimalist movement may have. Another guest with a focus on a more inclusive sustainable type of minimalism would have been a better fit imo, especially for people who are new to these ideas.
@@shirin-- when that one guy said the solution to poverty was to learn, earn, and invest, I rolled my eyes so hard. When I was making $16/hr in my city I had nothing to invest! It didn’t matter how much I learned about Vanguard index funds! Gah!
Honestly. Minimalism is not a solution to poverty, you can't minimalism your way out of it. It never meant to be that either, it fundamentally does not have the tools to do so. Which is why I find these arguments frustrating on both ends of the argument. It's not a flaw of minimalism nor its a feature, it's a completely separate thing. You can be frugal without being mindful, without being caring of your objects and time and energy. As a philosophy and approach to our relationship with consumerism it can be very beneficial to anyone from any economic background. That being said these guys said a lot of nonsense tbh.
@@morphinpink Not to poverty, but I think it is a solution to poor financial health and future poverty (retirement or sooner) above a certain income level. A lot of people who make more than 70% of their fellow Americans claim to live “paycheck to paycheck” !
@@MusiKo14 It can have financial benefits for sure. I just think it's a bad faith argument to say minimalism is inherently useless because it's not a clear cut solution to poverty, which was never meant to be in the first place.
Chelsea is a rock star. These guys are so canned and self absorbed. They talk about not being happy with their six-figure salaries, but what are they doing with the revenue from this brand? They complain about what they have and then use the platform of "less" to make more ... cool cool cool.
I feel like the thing that is missing in this discussion of t-shirt elitism is what anthropologists call 'embodied cultural capital' or 'habitus'. People who remove the traditional visual markers of success are flaunting their ability to get by on enculturated class privilege. They also, particularly in tech, were originally (it's been a *while* now) flaunting their status as part of the youth culture, as a way to denote that they were building a new world. There's a stereotype in tech of the brilliant young prodigy who will work themselves into the ground building something brilliant, and it is an instrumental myth in the exploitative, high-burnout work culture in tech and in startups. Not that all people with this aesthetic belong to those camps, but they are definitely trendsetters, particularly on the t-shirt wearing highly paid employee front.
For minimalists, they sure have a lot of excess - three uninteresting guys instead of one, super wordy without saying much that's meaningful, lot of bragging. Definitely my least favorite guests on TFC. Spent most of the time wishing I heard more from Chelsea and less from these three.
I think the part of that really is the take away is only focus on buying items that are either essential (for your situation), or bring you constant joy. White is minimalism for one is not for another. I know my hobby would not fit in the traditional minimalist mind set, as I really enjoy 3d printing miniatures, painting them, and playing with them in board games. Because I need so many of them and the materials that I use to create them require space and require good ventilation, it becomes necessary for me to dedicate a room for just crafting. However, the fact I can get joy out of not only printing stuff, but painting and then using them, makes it worth while, for me, to spend that kind of money and time. I am in the process of moving so they are all packed away and I can literally feel the emotional strain of not being able to have my couple of hours a week of working in my hobby.
This episode really gave me more "motivational speaker" vibes than actual diving deep into the relationship between consumerism, capitalism, and minimalism. Great questions on Chelsea's part, but the conversations had were just not at the analytical caliber I was hoping. A lot of nice-sounding ideologies about how letting go is an "art" poor people need to learn was probably the highlight of this.
These guys always say a lot of nothing lol
That is helpful to know! Gonna save this video for another day!
Was searching for a comment saying this. The questions were fantastic but I sometimes felt they skirted around getting into the meat of the answers and it ended up being a bit like they were repeating the same lines.
For context, I work with students from poorer backgrounds on a regular basis. For many of them, they are struggling with issues like mental health, bullying, peer pressure to engage in criminal activity, illiteracy, etc. And while the system issues are causing a lot of this, many of these students are looking for practical insights from the rare number of mentors they have on how to survive, get through the week, and find a reason to keep their heads up. I’d be willing to sit down for coffee with just about anyone and have a three hour conversation on the deeper issues of sociology, economics, and politics, but when I’m on the ground my students need encouragement, empathy, empowerment, and relationship-based education on how they can cultivate some agency in their troubled lives. So I tried to focus less on abstract political theories and more on what’s actually working in the hood to get more young people to a place where they can even afford to have the kind of higher level discussions about systems.
When it’s 4 of us sharing the conversation, it’s hard to go very deep because you get to make your initial point and it moves on. But I would have no problem coming back for a 1-on-1 to a deeper dive about the systemic issues I was only able to highlight here.
@@t.k.coleman5398 thanks for replying to this comment thread. Totally understand why you focus on those topics when speaking to students in schools etc. Sounds like you’re doing great work. I think viewers of this episode were just keen for you guys to delve into some deeper issues, which Chelsea did raise, but that seemed to be skimmed over a bit. You definitely touched on the systemic issues, which was great, and I wish you’d had a chance to elaborate. Appreciate it’s harder to get deep into things when the conversation isn’t one to one. Hopefully you’ll return to the show and get another chance.
I'm just 25 min in, but man these guys are doing their best to talk about consumerism, debt, etc without taking an actual stance on capitalism or class...
Yeah I actually greatly dislike these guys. They make money talking about minimalism and just say the same thing over and over and their content very much have pitched minimalism as a individual choice.
Idk, their content gives me the sketch/Culty vibes. I’ve seen a decent amount of videos criticizing them too that I agree with.
@@thalmorbiznitch4028 Okay I finished it, I hate them, with passion, wow
It's always important to watch an entire video before coming to a conclusion like this. They talked a lot about how they believe consumerism intersects with capitalism, particularly TK. TK also seemed to align with Chelsea's criticisms of capitalism in that unregulated capitalism benefits the ultra wealthy and exploits the poor. I personally am anti capitalist, I don't believe that capitalism is the optimal way to organize resources and society however I can appreciate the importance of what TK is saying to a greater society. Just being able to question capitalism as a natural given is a very big step for most people particularly in the US.
@@TheMrsarahanne90 You see I don't really agree with that because we've been hearing that notion of capitalism since it's conception "if ony it worked well" whilst the structure is about profit over everything. So when he repeats these points too me it rings disingenuous. He then said he doesn't believe there is an unethical ammount of wealth to own, and equates wealth to value of services/product given, so like which is it? Because if he acknowledges the inequity and the issues with this capitalism, how can he think all wealth produced is "good"? or at least not morally wrong (talking about billionaires).
TRULY, these guys are so avoidant when asked direct questions about policies or capitalism!
Yikes on the school choice comment. We need higher quality curriculum in our public schools, and to make working in our public schools a better experience for teachers and staff. There's no reason why schools in lower-income communities should be worse off than schools in higher-income neighborhoods. It is that way because of how the US funds schools with property taxes, instead of prioritizing schools in government budgets.
Totally agree! School choice is so often weaponized, we need to prioritize all public schools having the funding they need rather than allowing for parents to choose the sets of facts they believe in.
Personally, I subscribe to the Thomas Sowell view of culture defining school outcomes and culture. If you have a bunch of rich folks who don't expect and demand excellence from their educators and children, you will get bad schools.
I'm torn between not reading these comments until I'm done or preparing myself for the guest's cringe takes lol
exactlyyyy
@@michaelkovalsky4907 this has nothing to do with school funding
So often I find it hard to identify with men who preach extreme minimalism lifestyles because society holds them to such a different standard than women, in almost every way. There are so many women with minimalism RUclips channels that also talk about navigating minimalism as women and/or with families. They would have been been a better fit.
1000000% this
I hate this so much. You divide sexes like all men are the same and are treated the same from "society". It's such a redundant mute point. You do know society is made of 4 billion women also? So who holds who to a standard? You think women aren't mean, strategic, or hold standards? Stop dividing sexes. It's so insulting and reductive. Who cares if the financial diet has men or women on? I say this and i can't stand these guys...but it's not because they have a penis...it's because of their repetitive cult like perspectives
For real, if a woman showed up with hair that looked as neglected as the brown haired man, she would not be taken seriously. TBH, same goes for Bernie Sanders. The female equivalent of him could be a professor, not get elected to public office at that level.
I agree! This conversation would be interesting with woc specifically! WOC can’t just show up looking any which way in business spaces, the micro and macro aggressions are real.
You sound like Jennifer Lawrence. Women are not victims.
I really do think these guys have good intentions, but they just truly don’t seem to understand the lived experience of so many people. Their perspectives felt like a sermon or self help speech to me, not a real conversation about the privilege of minimalism. They way they cut you off multiple times also showed that these were rehearsed answers. This video is such a great example of why I’m so happy TFD exists. This is one of the only channels that speaks bluntly about finances, inequality, and privilege. I get so tired of the toxic positivity of male dominated podcasts and channels like theirs.
I think they used to have good intentions when they started this! But I would argue that at this point they're acting in a manner too aligned with their own self-interest that i kind of doubt that their intentions are good. Wealth can do that to people, but you can only blatantly ignore your privilege when it's clearly pointed out to you so many times.
Agreed. I do think they have good intentions, but it's like they stopped digging into the issues they experienced once they found a good 'conclusion' that worked for them and that people praised (and was lucrative). They've repeated that conclusion so many times, that it 100% reads like a sermon. I don't believe they're malintentioned, and I do think their message is positive for some people at certain moments of their lives. It's just so disappointing that they just stopped short of continuing to dig into things, learn, and listen so long ago.
I absolutely do not think that they have good intentions. I think they have sought out and succeeded in marketing themselves as the faces of (what was at the time) a new movement. They've continued to spout the same aged, not-deeply-considered statements for years now. I'm disappointed to have seen them here on this channel.
I don't think they have good or bad intentions and maybe that's a problem in itself. I think they're just here to make money and a name for themselves, regardless of what jibberish they have to serve. Yeah, it's a problem in itself... Serving empty catch phrases to your audience and suggestions they should live this way...
@Nayeli Perez
"I do think they have good intentions, but it's like they stopped digging into the issues they experienced once they found a good 'conclusion' that worked for them and that people praised (and was lucrative)"
Then it's not good intentions it's just exploitative... Repeating the same empty message because it's lucrative (because people try to follow it even though it's empty) is exploitative. Exploiting the willingness of people to follow an empty message to make money and clout isn't for the benefit of anyone but themselves. And it can actually be detrimental to the "followers" chasing nothingness and blaming themselves for it not working. It's clearly not coming from good intentions. Maybe at the very begining but not now.
“To not be poor you need to learn to let go.” No, dude, what I need is the MATERIAL CONDITIONS to not be poor. ie access to healthcare, a sustainable workload, affordable housing, etc. my god
Completely agree, I wish they touched on the larger macro issues in our culture rather than just an individual approach
Yes, learning is good too of course, but how can you start with learning as important and then not questioj the structural processes which increase or undermine your access to an education???
@@JakeMyerz they always blame it on the individual because its easyer to sell things. Ironic
@@JakeMyerz that would require admitting that the system is rigged and these bros ain't about to do that
I rewinded that part because what?!?!
I'm a practicing minimalist myself, and man was I disappointed the more I listened. They just danced around the questions repeating the same things. I think you're questions were very interesting, if only someone with more creative thought would have answered them.
I used to love their podcasts 3-4 years ago when I first discovered them but you are absolutely right that they just keep repeating the same things & they have ever since they started their brand… So much actual conversation dipped but repeating the same message over & over, just in different words.
If you haven't had Shelbizzlee on, she would be great because she talks about minimalism from an eco-perspective. Less spiritual and individual, and more about the greater impacts of sustainability :)
Yes! I love her :)
Second this request!!!!
yessssss
yes, this would be great!
yes, Shelbizzlee!
Hearing the way they talk to Chelsea has given me an ick I've never noticed before. It's reminding me too much of how men in the corporate world have talked over me in meetings or just bullshit around a direct question without giving a real answer.
this this this
they addressed everyone by name too much, it was aggressively polite.
long-haired guy's sister: you have a documentary on netflix. are you rich now?
long-haired guy: oh, honey, it does not work like that.
his response tell you all you need to know lol.
NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!
Agree! Intelligent, thought provoking questions that were not directly answered, rather they used catch phrases and repeated the same old stuff they always talk about. I get the same thing in corporate america - sittling in meetings all day long where leadership (i.e., the "experts") dodge questions and rely on jargon and catch phrases.
I listened to this podcast on Spotify and I had to come to RUclips to read the comments immediately. Y’all did NOT disappoint haha. I felt like the whole interview, Chelsea kept asking great questions that were answered with dodgy and vague replies. I think there’s just a lack of systemic oppression and hierarchies being acknowledged by these guys. I know that they are also fans of the Dave Ramsey universe, which can also explain their over emphasis on individualism and the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality. I think they mean well and I feel like if they took more of stance on acknowledging systemic oppression, I would be more willing to get behind their message. Great job on this interview, TFD, regardless of how well the guests answered your questions.
They were even dodging their own success. They got defensive about the t-shirts and really condescending about landing a contract with Netflix. They give the impression of success, but don’t want to claim it. It feels disingenuous.
Literally !! i came to the youtube to see if it was posted here so i could comment 😭
Agree. Chelsea asked great questions and seemed interested in fostering a back and forth but they felt oddly defensive in their responses, although they managed to avoid the tone itself being defensive.
The guy in the middle gave off huge billionaire bootlicker vibes.
Exactly the same. Ran here from listening to the podcast 😂
I feel like they talk about minimalism the way someone writes an essay the night before it’s due.
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Same. Round about answers that don't fully answer the question. Some questions felt unanswered as if they didn't understand it at all.
Also the one guy quoted the book Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn without attribution (“buying stuff we don’t need to impress people we haven’t met”)
I had to stop after he essentially said you can work your way out of poverty… sometimes you in fact can’t girlboss your way out of things and my simple pleasures once a week won’t actually make that much more of a difference
All they are offering is a self help type inspiration. They don’t have a product, it’s a lifestyle.
I don’t believe you can work your work out poverty as if work is some kind of guarantee that promises you wealth no matter what. I talked about work as one of the elements in our locus of control. And I talked about how I work with students to teach them the economic principles that can optimize their ability to work smarter. This is something that can improve everyone’s life, but like I said on the show…that doesn’t mean everything will be easy nor does it mean there are no systemic issues you have to deal with.
Oh boy, this is a wild contrast to TFD's normal content. Good on TFD and Chelsea give yourself a little treat for putting up with this boss bro hustle culture libertarian disaster.
Hahahaha "boss bro hustle culture libertarian disaster" is exactly what they are!
Lol
I think that one of things you overlook is that yes, more wealthy people are wearing simpler clothing with smaller jewelry. However, someone who is high income in tech or finance might be wearing $500 jeans or a woman wearing a simple gold necklace with small stones that costs thousands of dollars even though it is very subtle. Look at clothes from the row or other similar brands. They are still spending, and still signaling to one another, it's just not as flashy.
I wear pretty much only plain tee shirts and don't own many of them coz 'minimalism' but I get holes in them in a couple months and have to replace. I feel like this is something don't talk about but when you own less things you wear them out faster. There is a cost involved one way or another. It's hard to feel glamorous in holey tee shirts, shoes that are worn through and threadbare knickers haha
They've done a video about this exact thing.
@@GeorgiaWilson99 have you ever repaired them? one of my smaller anti consumerist rebellions is darning. I even mended a hole in some jeans last night. its not as hard as it looks :)
@@GeorgiaWilson99 I own about ten T-shirts because of minimalism, and a large part of keep a minimal wardrobe is making sure you've got stuff that's going to last: Buy It For Life overlaps quite nicely with minimalism. In this case, American Apparel or Uniqlo make some excellent plain T-shirts that have lasted me for the last six years.
@@zenspeed404 I still wear some Petit Bateau t-shirts which I bought over 20 years ago, only line dried and also my grand-mother’s nightgowns which date at least 80 years back. All my bed and table linen is antique French linen, indestructible. And my Barbour jacket faithfully rewaxed each summer and patched if needed is 30 years old.
"it's crony capitalism and corporatism, not capitalism" as soon as I hear someone say anything resembling that phrase I feel comfortable disregarding anything they have to say about economics - it quickly shows me that their understanding of economics is only made up of baseless catchphrases. No one with a thorough understanding of economics could honestly say our economic problems are anything other than a natural outgrowth of the core principles of free market ideology.
Thank you so much for this comment. These guys are absolutely libertarians but that political ideology has so much baggage they won't commit to the label. Everything he said about 'crony capitalism' and 'school choice'. It's literally taking me back to arguing with libertarians on tumblr.
That struck me too.
If you think that capitalism means markets free of regulation then you have been misinformed by right wing ideology.
I used to follow the minimalists but stopped a few years ago and WOW do I see so much better through their bullshit now that started the minute they started talking. They have zero new perspectives or new stories since they started years ago and the nuance of Chelsea's questions consistently went completely over their head. Every answer sounds like they're just playing back a recording of something that slightly fits the question. Almost impressive how they didn't grow at all in at least 5 years.
I 100% agree Chelsea's questions requiring nuanced discussions on a variety of matters definitely went straight over there heads .I also used to watch them and stopped after a month because I found their content lacked depth or any change.
Agreed. You should watch Drew Gooden's video critique of The Minimalists, it's pretty funny.
@@coffeebean3627 that's gonna be the next on my list. I need a palate cleanse
Ditto. I went hard into minimalism when I first started, now I just stick to shelbizzle and Madeline Olivia. They're a far more realistic type of minimalism. Like a be mindful of what you buy, but have what you want in your life. If you want a 100 books because thats what makes you happy, then have them.
Yeah... Growth is not minimalistic enough for them to engage in.
They were ducking and dodging Chelsea’s questions like George Bush dodging shoes. It’s giving corny and out of touch.
Also, that diversity “joke” was uncomfortable…
But kudos to Chelsea for sticking on them even when it was clear that they weren’t going to give any real answers, lol
Thanks for watching! Write me on the number above let's talk. 📩👆
Super uncomfortable lol! I cringed so hard
Also they interrupted her and talked sooo much.
Seriously....they said a lot of words that barely made sense. Except for that awkward joke. It landed...horribly lol
Love the min guys for what they started but they sure dodge the question about how the Zucks and software bros made min tshirts a status symbol. The correct answer to that was “yeah, the Silicon Valley guys CO-OPED the min look and vulgarized it.”
I swear, all the way up in Canada, I heard the collective sigh the ladies let out when the cameras stopped rolling.
LOL
😂
What?
@@Sarah1R1 - Sigh of exasperation (or of relief bc the interview over). These guys are dolts.
Ohh, that’s what that sound was! 🍁
"We are not a brand, we are just some human beings that come together with a common cause". That is the equivalent of "we are not a business, we are a family". Also, the AUDACITY to say that given the very heavy marketing these guys wrap themselves into, is just beyond me.
How big must your ego be to speak the words “we’re not a brand” into a literal branded microphone. I’m speechless 🫠
"we're not a brand" reminded me of the King of the Hill "we're not a cult, it's an organization that promotes love and-" bit.
THIS THIS
@@shirin-- 😂😁 You're spot on!
I don't feel great about the Dave Ramsey association, feels like a real cash grab.
I followed these guys a few years ago and I did learn a few things about intentionality and meaningful living. But in the last couple years, I don't find they provide any value or novelty in their discourse that I didn't already gain years ago. And in fact, I now find them preachy by repeating the same catch phrases and anecdotes and I find I'm gravitating more towards conversations about what and how individual struggles mean on a social level.
I try to not bash things I once gained value from but wow they were robotic and canned and just have a conversation for fuck's sake.
Also, the whole advertisements suck thing, sure ads are annoying but then they put their maximal episodes behind a pay wall and hide that by virtue signaling that they're too good for ads. Stop trying to pretend you're too good for money.
Literally! I haven't followed these guys, but I have used different tools of minimalism over the years, I was really excited for a productive conversation about the intersection of minimalism and financial responsibility on a large scale as well as an individual level. That is NOT what we got. Very disappointing.
100% agree. i watched their documentary when it first came out and a lot of what they said about living with intentionality is what i appreciated. now it just feels largely icky because i've learned that my desire to live intentionally doesn't mean i have to go without.
Totally agree. I had listened to their podcast from the start, and I stopped around the time Josh shared that he takes the labels off his TOMS shoes so folks won't know what brand he's wearing. I remember thinking, "But you'll share the brand with tons of podcast listeners? Like way more people than would see your shoes in Missoula, MT?" Around the same time they started talking really negatively/dismissively about Missoula (a place I love) and I heard from one of their local group coordinators that they had basically just blown him off when they went to the city he lived in while on a speaking tour. They definitely got too big for their britches.
I had the same reaction. I felt they were scripted and working to hard to stick to their brand message and it didn't work for a podcast format. I followed these guys a few years ago and mid-way through watching this was thinking theres something off about this "conversation"
Many times during this interview, I wanted to say to the screen, "just answer the question!"
Glad this episode exists despite it being very difficult to watch because it puts The Minimalists on full display. I used to be a fan of the two of them until they kept cycling through the same individualistic points. If the conversation isn't evolving and you are no longer approaching the topic of minimalism from new angles or with nuance, why keep going? It felt as though they tried to come onto the podcast to debunk Chelsea's points, but it seemed as though they were talking to their own audience and had no interest in actual dialogue. What does community driven minimalism or anti consumerism look like? What happens after I get rid of the things that don't make me happy? How can a community of people work together to address this "mental clutter"?
I think many of us have evolved to be more critical of our personal consumption, especially because minimalism had its boom a few years ago. We have passed the point of the personal anecdotes of looking around and noticing all of the stuff making us miserable. The conversation has to evolve from there and these guys just don't seem to have an interest in doing that.
Thanks for watching, send a Dm to the number above let's talk on WhatsApp .
Endeavour to reach out! 📩👆.
For real. I think they are still going bc the money is rolling in.
The Minimalists frustrate me in a lot of ways. As others have said in the comments section, I much prefer Marie Kondo's method, which feels so much more personalized (and actionable!), as well as compassionate and based on joy rather than rules or moral high grounds.
Minimalism is not based on rules or moral high grounds. It's based on finding what is meaningful to you - exactly like Marie Kondo. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean you need to dismiss it.
I do not think Marie Kondo's message is minimalism. She seems like the majority of women who are talking about decluttering, systems, and organizing. She is talking about what sparks joy and not going that deep. I think certain types of people are drawn to her method because they are operating from more feelings-based and not logic and do not want to go into a place of substance internally.
as someone who grew up in the 90s in Eastern Europe, had to pack about 100 pounds of anything (clothes, electronics, shoes, cosmetics, etc) to move to another country, and who has been extremely broke for some time in the past (to a point of not eating every day), I can say with confidence I - I am not a minimalist. A new shirt does make me happy, a new house device does make me happy, a new perfume does make me feel nice. A new shop with affordable fashion does make me like my life more. I'm not letting anyone shame me for loving things money can buy.
Just the fact that one of them showed up without bothering to brush his hair demonstrates that they have no idea what Chelsea is talking about when she suggests that people spend money on their clothes, etc to communicate competence. I'd love to see it the other way around, Chelsea in sweatshirt, no makeup and just woke up hair and the three of them in suits. Maybe that would communicate the point. These guys are an irritation.
the 2 white guys have big "guy in your film elective in undergrad" energy which is to say, I hate it
It's definitely giving "privilege of someone given the benefit of the doubt a lot." Poor Ryan. He doesn't/didn't usually look that frizzy in previous videos. I think maybe he took a shower actually but didn't use any conditioner because that's how my (bleached) hair looks after a shower and air dry with no conditioner. 😆
I swear this has to be a cultural thing I don't understand. The need to own expensive clothes, to have an expensive car or expensive watch, I cannot conceptualize in my head a world that would care or acknowledge that what someone owns as the measure of success. From my first job working minimum wage all the way through to my current job, I've never shown up to an interview in more than a polo shirt and slacks. The most expensive or annoying item of clothing I had to buy for work was a dress shirt worth about $40. When I watch videos where people describe the issues with keeping up appearances and outwardly displaying success I honestly feel like I'm through the looking glass, observing a world I do not understand. Maybe someone can help me understand...
If you are white and male yeah you can show up to any interview and any job and be assumed to be competent and be given respect wearing just a polo. Unfortunately women and people of color don’t have the luxury to just show up being “themselves” in a polo shirt. We have to work harder, dress sharper, and show results to actually be given respect and considered competent.
@@Sony4Ever321 Genuinely, this might be the reason, but even this feels alien to me. I've been in charge of interviewing for new positions before and these types of thoughts never cross my mind. This could be a result of the type of jobs I've had and work I've done in the past, but I have had jobs in offices where I was the only guy and this still didn't happen. It's still possible I've been considerably lucky not only with my career but with the women I've worked with, and I know this toxicity exists because people keep talking about it and their experiences, but on a fundamental level, I do not understand the type of thinking that leads to this type of generalized persecution - that people would be judgemental like this, it boggles the mind.
Not sure what it is on how these guys are communicating but it is giving me evangelical vibes.
I was thinking the same thing! Their way of speaking is giving non-denom preacher vibes.
I agree. And, for what it’s worth, I was deeply evangelical when I was also deeply into minimalism, and I think the two really thrive together (though I didn’t see these guys until I was well into it myself, it was a Christian mommy blogger who exposed me to the idea of minimizing in the first place). I don’t know what to do with that knowledge, but it’s interesting to think about.
Totally agree, as soon as they started speaking I was like, hello?? That is the exact cadence and tone of a pastor
I came to the comments to see if anyone noticed this!
Yeh it’s the cadence of Millburn’s more scripted statements and the cool guy pastor vibes
The LAST response I expected to the softball question "What policy do you advocate for, which would help make strides decreasing consumerism?" is SCHOOL CHOICE? So out of left field.
Not sure if they're aware they sound like the embodiment of the problems Chelsea has with these minimalist influencers...
(I'm only 30 minutes in, but I highly doubt they'll suddenly discover class consciousness in the last half)
The guy quoted MILTON FRIEDMAN lol.
THIS
School choice the empty echo of all radical Chicago suburban parents. Yes the schools are bad but CHOICE ain't the answer for sure
To your last point: it almost makes it seem like this episode was secretly an exposé (and I'm about it) 😂
@@ashleythompson4436 This had to be a secret exposé! I honestly admire Chelsea's ability to stay composed through some of these answers she got.
I’m about to opt out of this interview but I want to continue for Chelsea. Excellent job Chelsea. I wish your guest actually answered you questions
If you live in a state that experiences all four seasons, then your journey to minimalism is a bit more complicated because you need a wardrobe that’s warm enough for -2° windchill and cool enough for 98° heat.
YES! I have lost a lot of weight and the money I’m spending to replace my wardrobe is real. I need a coat for -5 degrees and work clothes for commuting in 90 degrees. Those of us that live in extreme climates NEED more clothes.
Add having a working farm AND full time off the farm jobs. 😁 I still try to only have what we need and *truly* want. May the people who think less of us because we don't have the latest and greatest be damned.
Yes! I was thinking of something similar. I live in Texas now but spent most of my life in the Northeast and needed a variety of types of clothes, as well as both dress clothes and casual clothes because I work in a field where I need to dress at least business casual.
6 days ago, there was an episode about Imposter Syndrome. It isn't an understatement that men typically don't feel Imposter Syndrome; and these guys are a reflection of that. There are a lot of Men who don't apologize for making a large amount of money to the extent that it comes off unattached to systemic societal failings.
Geezus, I cringed at the majority of their responses. They were definitely not ready to have a deeper conversation about minimalism intersecting with capitalism at the level Chelsea expected. They just focused on their feelings as post poor then rich corporate dudes. Who I'm sure after selling homes and belongings while "becoming minimalists"; were able to get a good return on those items.
This is also why after following a few people in the Finance space; I always count on and stick with Chelsea's or rather The TFD approach. Which is actually nuanced, honest and realistic.
Edit. Just wanted to add that I am a Male subscriber, as my username doesn't easily suggest my gender.
I'm barely halfway, and I honestly can't finish. The questions aren't being answered directly, they're being used as starting off points to regurgitate older concepts and quotes we've already heard a thousand times. I can't listen to JFM blow smoke up his own arse anymore. His speech is so rehearsed, and just the way he gazes at the camera and pauses part way through his sentences to really "hit home" what he feels are such meaningful words...it just makes me cringe too much. I was really hoping this would be a casual, down to earth conversation, where they would directly respond to your questions Chelsea, lol. It's the same old same old, in my opinion. Thanks for trying, we appreciate you and TFD!
Edit - After thinking a bit more about some of the things said here, I have to say this episode had so many cringe worthy moments coming from TM, the diversity comment being most ridiculous imo. But the whole thing really just clarifies how out of touch they are when held up against the backdrop of current social issues. It's glaring.
The way TFD doesn't shy away from anything is so refreshing, and I really value your content.
Agreed
💯
This! It is all so rehearsed and repetitive…they have been sharing the exact same story for years. This was such a weird episode 😮
@@hunniebun6240 I agree with you! I'm also really tired of the lack of intersectionality in their content. That weird defensive comment "clarifying" that having TK with them isn't tokenism?!.....*cringe*
I’m only 45 minutes in but the privilege of these men seems to be really blinding them to the realities of class differences and some of the points that Chelsea has made. They seem to be speaking many good points but it misses accepting the realities of poverty.
Just wait for the answer at 52:00 lol
@@TheWillRogers wtf is up with them :O
@@happytofu5 My take is that they're just self-help gurus.
@@TheWillRogers that’s absolutely what they are. Their sole focus and income is…minimalism. It gives “making success from selling courses in how to build success” vibes
@@TheWillRogers who are just selling what ever.
I'm not busy because I've allowed my life to get "out of control." I'm busy because I'm a full-time college student who has to work in a shitty workplace market to pay my rent and scrape by while I claw my way to a better future! Eff off with this victim blaming.
Yeah, I was listening to this while hand-washing dishes (I am a major consumer because I want a dishwasher) before working on a grad paper, so I can potentially make more money so I can get a dishwasher. My busy "out of control" is working towards a better life (with a dishwasher, and a bed instead of a futon).
Who the heck is their audience?? Because the only people who can afford to live like this can afford to make mistakes.
@@hannahm5298 Libertaran young bros
Yeah I’m not busy because I lack control over my life. I’m busy because I’m a single mom with kids in two different schools to meet their learning needs, I work full time in a hybrid job, I have a dog and I keep space in my life for hobbies and relationships. My time is stretched thin not because my life is out of control but because my life is full.
Exactly. Life has changed drastically for most people during the last 5 years but the Minimalists are still living like it's 2015. Really out of touch.
“We can’t demonize wealth” - hm, can’t we tho?
Yeah, they got the wrong crowd for that bs lol
im absolutely going to deamonise billionaires
@@lunarose9 💜
@@lunarose9 100%!!!!!!
I don’t think we can demonize wealth but we can demonize how people acquire their wealth & how that wealth is used.
I'm only 30 minutes in and so super proud of our community. Just based on these comments almost everyone saw through their BS immediately, lol!
I got almost to the end without reading the comments; I am SO GLAD to see what people have commented!
What an absolute privilege to acquire all the things that people dream of (house with more bathrooms than people, etc) only to have/make the choice the choice to reject them and STILL use that to make money. Absurd.
45 minutes in and despite excellent pointed questions from Chelsea, these guys have yet to say... Anything.
"Consumption won't fill the void" yeah but even non-minimalists know that, at least philosophically.
But sometimes "the void" was created by a $300,000 hospital bill. Will not buying knick knacks and saving $300/year fill that void?
Sometimes the knick knacks are the only things keeping people from jumping into the void those hospital bills left behind. It feels like they refuse to even consider that.
6 min in and idk one more question not answered and I'm out.
Consumption could easily cause the relatively modest cost of health insurance seem out of reach, leading to a 300,000 liability.
How is "consume what you need, and not be tied to what you want, and you'll probably have enough" so controversial?
I totally get why TFD had these guys on and I do think it demonstrated ~a point~ about this flavor of minimalism being tone deaf to class consciousness, but I would love to see a "minimalist" guest whose political & economic ideologies are more aligned with TFD. I saw Shelbizleee or the AfroMinimalist suggested in some comments, I think that would make an interesting contrast to this episode.
she has a great youtube
*tone deaf, and yes I absolutely agree. They're completely out-of-touch. You can tell that they're too focused on sticking to the script (which they constantly repeat in every interview). This is why they dodged so many of Chelsea's questions, bc they don't have a prepared response, so we're being fed one big word salad of hollow platitudes instead.
Shelbizleee would be amazing (been watching her since her "dumpster diving" days!), but how completely even more amazing would be the AfroMinimalist because she doesn't already have a YT platform like Shelbizlee!
I think there is a major gender difference here. Male CEO can show up in a hoodie. Female CEO cannot.
"The only handcuffs we know today are the golden handcuffs, the guy making 250k and they're like 'i'm swimming in money I have too many things how do i deal with having so much stuff and not knowing what to do with all my bank' ."
I don't think I've ever heard golden handcuffs described this way. Every time I've heard of golden handcuffs it's for people who make decent money for their locale, are miserable at their well-paying jobs, but have children, medical debt, student loans, and a predatory mortgage loan, that removes the option for them to quit their job.
Same. If they "didn't know what to do with their money" they would more than likely just quit after investing a few years. But they usually have bills and familial obligations so they know exactly what to do with the cash lol. Honestly it seems like a projection from them 🤷🏾♀️
I think they defined it that way because they're wealthy and can't relate to most of society in that way. It almost sounds like they think they're the victims of a golden parachute, which is backwards 😅
Correct. Golden handcuffs was explained to me years ago as making just enough money that you're comfortable at a job you hate or don't find challenging and taking a pay cut to change jobs would alter your state of stability.
Golden handcuffs is definitely used in this way in Silicon Valley, where I live. Many tech employees here are promised hefty stock, but get it in allotments over a few years, hence the “golden handcuffs” that keep them on the job that is stressful.
Perhaps there are several meaning but that is the predominant one here so clearly there is variation.
When he said “economically speaking, money is he reward for creating value.” THEN THE WORKERS SHOULD HAVE IT ALL
Right?! Like ooooh you almost got the point. ALMOST.
This. Absolutely this. Like when he said that I was like are you kidding me? Like you really are putting the blinders on to see how fucked it is.
EXACTLY!!! They were so frustrating to listen to. I hung in there, but ultimately they didn't say anything other than what's already in their books, and didn't seem to be answering the questions in a genuine way.
Well, I did mention that our current market is exploitative in that it artificially hinders the poor and allows certain people to game the system via unfair policies. This comment was about the first step in teaching students how to understand what gets you paid in an entrepreneurial and employment context. It’s not a denial of systemic issues. We have to acknowledge both things, not one thing at the expense of everything else. There are real economic principles at work and we can leverage them to improve our lives. Also, there are real unfair policies at work that compromise our full potential for economic flourishing. I acknowledged both elements here.
But the workers wouldn’t create one penny of value without the capital that whoever hired them put into the business…
I have followed Josh and Ryan off and on for years now. I am so tired of hearing them rehash the exact same language over and over again in their documentaries, books, lectures, podcast, interviews, etc. The lack of authenticity is astounding; it sounds so rote. I appreciate Chelsea trying to push them, but man, it all just sounds like a marketing machine rather than answers to thoughtful questions.
Yes! I totally agree.
They're Capitalism apology proves that minimalism is only a rebrand of surviving austerity.
I don’t really care about the labels. Saying “I hate capitalism” or “I love capitalism” isn’t what’s going to change the world. I care about the ideas, intentions, and incentives behind the labels. I was clear with Chelsea that I agreed with the criticisms of capitalism she made. I simply differed on my semantics (ie cronyism, corporatism). But we can use whatever label people wish. The point I made on the show, however, was that capitalism as she understood it was “rightly demonized.” I don’t recall defending evil and exploitation, but I do recall pointing out how our current economy unfairly disadvantages people through policies that have been gamified by many big players.
How can anyone compare rich people hoarding wealth to poor people going without stuff??? 😂😂😂 I can’t.
On the show, I actually said we shouldn’t try to compare those things. I talked about how letting go is only beneficial if you’re letting go of something that’s holding you back. I mentioned that this process has to look different for everyone based on where they are.
I've been so busy (not by choice) that I literally haven't had the opportunity to mourn my own mother's death. My husband works two jobs and I can't get the childcare I need to have space so I'm exhausted. That's what non physical clutter looks like.
Lol And you haven't just gotten rid of all that non physical clutter?! Why ever not? Don't you know it's keeping you in the position you're in financially?
Obviously I'm being sarcastic. These guys are so full of shit.
I'm sorry for your loss. I hope you get the time you need, somehow. Systemic change and support structures like subsidised childcare/ family leave are lacking. These 'minimalists' have really minimised the real unpaid labour and support women like you contribute to society. The individualist mindset they promote is so short sighted and they bring zero insight to TFD viewers
I’m really sorry you’re having a rough time at the moment. I hope you can get some help from family or friends to give you some breathing room.
I’m sorry you’re having a rough time as well. I don’t believe that people like you are suffering because you’re choosing to suffer. I believe people like you need support, encouragement, and help from real people who genuinely care. I don’t think you should allow anyone to make you feel condemned for your struggles.
i swear i’ve heard the same minimalism origin story from these guys about twenty times… my eyes rolled so far back into my head 🙄 all they say seems to be a script and once again, minimalism without politics and the material conditions to even THINK about getting rid of things is such an empty priviledged concept! i went through a minimalism phase when i was about twenty and consumed a lot of their content. flash forward 7 years and their message remains exactly the same? lmao
right? I def see value in the Marie Kondo style of only owning what sparks joy but these guys feel like total grifters. Why do they speak with the cadence of a TED Talk when they’re supposed to be having a conversation? Why have they made multiple documentaries with the same purpose and reused anecdotes?
Their talking points are really rehearsed!
Oh no, they have politics because one of them voted for trump. I would say a non-minimalist action, but hey they don't judge right?
@@mellomallowy oh God. which one?
Omg I had the same experience when I "discovered" their content in my early 20s, so funny to see your comment! Agree with everything you said.
There’s a difference between finding spiritual benefits in owning less things, than trying to not-buy your way out of poverty. Yes it can help you financially to not buy so much, but there are also deeper and more complex issues when it comes to poverty, especially when it is generational. And there’s a difference between people who study poverty, the effects of it and how to leave it, and people who advocate minimalism.
Spot on👍
I honestly don't like these guys take on minimalism. Some of their ideas I agree with: learning to redefine what we think is successful and valuable. But I really hate the "entrepreneur" discourse meshed up with minimalism. Entrepreneurship is about "the grind", is about working hard to get ahead of everyone else. It's about the individual. The figure of the hard working entrepreneur it's just another toxic capitalistic idea. It's honestly funny how these guys just avoid talking about the privilege, class and economic inequality.
If I had too much stuff from a high paying job, becoming a minimalist by throwing stuff out would be easy, lol. I think this is the wrong audience. They should talk to bored millionaires.
Although it looks like the majority of us felt like they didn’t really answer the questions and almost seemed scripted. I give them credit for participating in this and hopefully this will push them to analyze their stance on important topics like inequalities within our systems.
I’m definitely trying to learn more from this perception. I totally get people not liking or agreeing with an answer, but I thought I addressed everything she asked. The challenge with interviewing 3 people, however, is that there isn’t as much time to do the usual follow-ups, counterpoints, or requests for clarification on each answer like we see in 1-on-1 interviews. I enjoyed the questions and wished we could have dived in deeper.
Wow It's like they don't even HEAR the questions but go ahead and use the key words to repeat some memorized discourse, they were not here to debate or have a conversation, but to preach. Super annoying and counterproductive because I think the questions were really good and insightful!
This is the main thing that's bothered me over the last couple years with them, all answers seemed canned and rehearsed. Just talk man.
Yes! They keep talking in these long winded stories and I forgot what her questions originally were. I think that’s the test to how focused the response is to her actually questions
51:00 T.K lost me when he said that wealth is a reward for creating value and that there's not a morally wrong amount of money to make because he didn't address why they might be making that billion. He missed the opportunity to address companies evading taxes and their poor excuses for doing so.
When I said “there’s not a morally wrong amount of money to make,” that’s not the same thing as saying “there’s no such thing as an immoral strategy for making money.” I don’t endorse being a paid assassin or a fraudulent hedge fund manager for instance. I was simply saying that you can’t accuse a person of being good or bad solely based on the amount of money they make. It wasn’t a denial of the fact that some people make wealth through illegal and immoral means.
@@t.k.coleman5398 thanks T.K. I may have been wrong in understanding what you meant. I appreciate you responding and clarifying.
These guys have effectively put me off minimalism. Is there someone talking about minimalism from a class conscious perspective? That would be a great guest
A lot of people are, these guys are just not good examples tbh
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Shelbizzlee - eco-minimalism, class conscious, just all around incredible human and content creator.
Camille Collazo on RUclips has changed her approach recently to acknowledge systemic inequality.
The guys don’t seem to be a good representation of people who talk about minimalism online tbh
Every time Chelsea asked a question I was like ”uu this is so good, I want to hear an answer or at least a discussion around this”… but nope, these guys managed to use their memorized lines and completely avoid answering any questiosn.
These guys have the same stories and anecdotes for a decade, I used to listen to them years ago, and I hoped they will bring something new to the table by now. But nope, same divorce and mom died story. Very disappointed with the conversation. Kudos to Chelsea to trying to get something out of it until the last minute.
People talk about minimalism like it's a groundbreaking new idea, but in fact most people throughout the history (and possibly today) have been more minimalist than Matt D'Avella. Buying or making a small number of items and using them as long as possible has always been the norm.
Yes! Yes! Yes! How is this a new concept??
yep, and older things were built to last longer too.
Yeah… I live in China and their savings rate is incredibly high. They often wear the same 3-4 items of clothing over and over. Apart from the flashy new rich, the vast majority of the 1.4 billion plus people here use and reuse things forever and need very little. Even my wealthy private school students wore the same clothes every few days, nearly every Chinese person I’ve met has a reusable water bottle they bought for $5-10 years ago, and they simply don’t need very much.
It’s a sharp contrast to two aspects of the culture (the cheap mass-market products they send back to the States & the largesse displayed in buffets) more often mentioned.
This episode helped me to appreciate all of the amazing elevated conversations Chelsea has had on previous episodes with amazing women and men who are more down to earth 😁
I’ve listened to these guys a bunch over the past decade or so and they never say anything new; It’s just their TED talk rehashed, often using the exact same words and phrases. I could have told several of the anecdotes myself.
They have talking points and don’t bother to deviate from them to address the actual questions asked.
These guys talk like life coaches and scammy gurus. I thank my dog because she pressed the remote as she knew I wasn't enjoying this ep. Hope the next guests talk like normal human beings like most of the guests do.
Thanks for watching, send a msg to the number above for insight and guidance. 👆
smart dogo!
I would love to hear Chelsea’s take on life coaches. That would just make my day.
Loving The Minimalists slander in the comments 😂These guys couldn't answer a single question Chelsea threw at them. And if I have to hear Josh and Ryan tell that goddamn origin story one more time, I'm going to throw my phone at the wall 😒
😂😂😂 same here!
I 'aint heard this much preaching since last I set foot in a church.
Makes my skin crawl. This feels so much like a worldview for sale.
The guests dissapointed but the comments delivered!!!!
Hi Chelsea!
I have follow this channel for years, even tho i am from Argentina and some of the content doesn´t apply here, i really love learning about the topics in your videos. I have notice something for a few years and i want to tell you, you are so incredible talented. the way you express your ideas and the amazing energy you put into the interviews is really special. Thank you and your team for giving us such amazing content! ♥
I first found the minimalists during an awful time in my life and they really helped me to change my outlook. Over time their podcast just became the Josh show and he preaches this same thing word for word each time and doesn’t let Ryan get a word in edgeways.
Yes! TK has been a good buffer and mediator between them. Josh has made me tune out over the last year and a half.
Preaching!! As an Ex-vangelical that is exactly the vibe I was getting. Like what fing church are you trying to convert me to?
Omg yes! I'd also noticed this but couldn't exactly put my finger on it. Like why?? I don't understand that dynamic, like the need for it to be the Josh show and Ryan's ability to just take it. They used to have more conversations that I enjoyed at the early days of the podcast and living room conversations.
And also I agree I found the RUclips minimalism culture like 5 years ago when I really needed it and it helped me a lot. I've integrated it into my life, but I'm past these guys in their current form.
They look like a evangelical music band who had to add TK just to seem relevant.
I don't follow the minimalists anymore. I view my life in a more Marie kondo way instead. Keep what I love and I absolutely need and discard the rest.
Thanks for watching, send a msg to the number above for insight and guidance. 👆
And that's essentially what minimalism is supposed to be -- making sure that the things you keep are the few things you can be sure let you live your best. But minimalism has fallen prey to lifestyle marketing. It's why I avoid minimalist influencers and practice alone.
@@fruitygarlic3601 Couldn't agree more!
Chelsea is in her new urbanism era and I’m here for it
If it involves continuing to lend her platform to the likes of these guys and Virgie Tovar, I don't want to be here for it.
@@lmshanyfelt what’s wrong with Virgie Tovar?
They feel like politicians rather than human beings. "Great question" *proceeds to not answer it and go over the same talking points again*
I haven't listened to The Minimalists in a few years now. When did they add a third minimalist? Not very minimalist of them..
best answer xD
😂
Actually snorted at this 😂💀
So impressed with Chelsea's poise in light of them dodging her well-thought-out questions. Tough to keep these guys on track.
Chelsea's question at 32:00 and their replies are *chef's kiss*. It's a perfect encapsulation of what TFD adds to the personal finance community
Also 54:30 - he suddenly was able to make do with a 90% pay cut after starting the minimalists, but didn't he say he got a divorce and his mom died immediately before he started the company? Sure is easier to earn less when you've come into inheritance and someone else is looking after your kids....
God it's so bizarre to watch - it really hits home how little they understand the point of view she's coming from. Comes across like they've never been made to feel inferior in their entire lives
I think these guys are good at speaking to people who have some macho pride. Maybe they meet these guys where they’re at? Building generational wealth requires a minimalist mindset though? Huh?
For me, I spoke from the mindset of someone who works with students from poor backgrounds who are fighting against incredible odds just to survive. And these students don’t care about our pity for them or for the hatred we pronounce at the system. They care about our willingness to get involved with their lives and empower them with perspectives and practical tools they can use to keep their head above water. Poor people are people too and they all have things they’re struggling to let go. So when I talk about people who are disadvantaged, I wasn’t trying to sound virtuous. I was sharing, at a very introductory level because of time, things that are actually working in their real lives.
The problem I have with minimalism isn't what it preaches, but what it ignores. It individualizes problems that are pretty systemic. Consumerism is a cultural and systemic issue not just an individual issue and while you do have agency, it isn't that can be fixed with just individual choices and it's a part of a larger problem. This interview is very indicative of that, every time Chelsea asked poignant questions they kept deflecting to individual choices.
i consider myself a minimqlist and i 100% agree with this! mininalism has helped me to personally unlearn some consumerist mi dsets i had but the problem of consumersim is so much larger than personal choices. the system itself incentivises unhealthy company practices and conseumerism. The system needs to change!
"letting others emergency become our urgency" being the cause of calendar clutter and that being something we can and should aspire to control feels like the sort of thing only a single, well to do, childless, man could ever believe. A single parent working several hourly jobs doesn't get to just curate their obligations to the people around them. I feel like their rhetoric supports the individual actions form of problem solving while ignoring any systemic problems. They make minimalism look bad.
YES! How weird to hear that from them. How does a stressed working mom escape these constant “emergencies”?! She doesn’t have a choice!
I'm so sorry this wasn't a good back and forth. It felt more like 3 vs 1 and it irks me how privilaged they sound. I liked minimalism one time in my life but not anymore.
I disagree, it felt like she knew what she was walking into. She also did not do many follow up questions even when they ignored the question. I thought she did a great job of asking a great pointed question then letting each of say ... nothing for a few minutes. Then she would ask a different pointed question.
I’d be happy to do a 1-on-1 with Chelsea and I’d be happy to take all the hard questions. She mentioned that she never did an interview with 3 people before, so it was a new experience for all of us. It’s kind of hard to go deep into follow-ups and objections when three people are being interviewed. But I would be more than willing to tackle whatever tough questions and follow-ups people feel like we were running away from. I think these conversations are important and I wouldn’t want anyone feeling like we dodged their questions.
I started following the minimalists years ago. I like them well enough, I think I have read all the books they’ve released. With that said, I think that they have a very simple message, and have to really stretch it to turn this into a career haha.
Minimalism is different for everybody, and it’s something that ebbs and flows within ourselves. The concept has been very powerful for me.
I’d love to recommend shelbizzlee for talking about environmentalism and how she switched from over consumption to a more conscious life
She would have been a much better guest! Could have had an actual conversation rather than being talked at by 3 out of touch dudes
Yep she's awesome. Granted a lot of her content can be repetitive (what's this year's most eco friendly water bottle and such) but she does dive into things, while also trying to meet ppl where they're at with some basic introductory ideas. There's also much less philosophizing. She also reaches across the board- I found her from Minimalish Erica Lucas' channel, who's a conservative homeschooling military wife.
Oh Chelsea. My facepalm hurts. The Bootstrap Bros don't even realize how out of their league you are. You were amazing and offered so many thoughtful, nuanced questions and they responded with nothing but vague platitudes.
Not only did I learn nothing, but they gave some frustrating answers 🤷♂
I tried to watch their documentary a year ago or so, and shut it off very early on because it made me incredibly anxious. Now watching this, I completely see why.
I’ve been doing low waste and decluttering for years and they did not feel genuine to me at all.
Same. I felt like I was watching a cult documentary.
the first one wasn't bad as a basic, over view level introduction to minimalism, most likely due to the fact that it was mostly guest speakers.
the second one tho...i did not like the tone, even the cadence of speaking (like are you trying to be over dramatic or just preachy like on a podium), and they were trying to so hard to sell their rags to riches story (or rather rags to riches to minimalist enlightenment story) but it just felt so fake. like that fake kind of trying to be deep.
it didn't hit me until recently that the thing that bothers me about them now is they haven't bothered to evolve beyond the "just get rid of things"
bring on Marie Kondo ‼️ let’s get someone w some SENSE on the line 😭
Them saying that you "don't need to feel guilty" for having to buy/own a suit+tie if you need it for work... NO ONE THAT SITUATION APPLIES TO FEELS GUILTY! People are having trouble affording & financially justifying it even though it is a necessity for being taken seriously in a lot of fields. Tf??
It’s actually both. People’s lives are tough AND many of them feel guilty and ashamed about it. I’ve helped thousands of people prepare for job interviews and you’d be surprised how many of them are relieved to be given a perspective that says “you don’t need to feel guilty.” That’s not the only problem, but it’s a real problem.
This was painful to watch. Chelsea did great, but these guys are out of touch. Minimalism can be a great message, but it’s nothing more than another thing to consume when you make it a brand and market it to sell.
“I don’t think there’s a morally wrong amount of money to make” Well, if you make it exploiting people’s labor and a finite amount of natural resources, yes, there is. And I would argue that no obscene amount of wealth can be made without doing at least one of the two. Since the dude is so into education, he should probably read some more on the history of labor under capitalism.
I think the philosophy of "Let go of stuff you don't need - if it's not making you happy then you don't have to keep it in your life" is honestly really nice! I like that a lot, but some of this seemed like they were taking some of it to a level where it really was just tone deaf and unrealistic. Also, Igotta say, I'm REALLY not a fan of the "school choice" things he said. Firstly, yes, it is illegal to send your kid to the wrong school district. The reason that nost ppl would want to do that in the first place is because the school where you currently go is underfunded, not because they just like it. Also, the fact of the matter is that some parents choices suck. Sending your kid to a school that says Noah's ark is a historical event that happened or refuses to teach their kid about sex ed or the existence of birth control or that racism is not a thing that exists is an extreme disservice to that child and the children around them. "Expanding parents choices" is usually just code for "i don't want my kid to learn this thing that I disagree with regardless of how factual it is".
THIS. 👆🏼
Their scripted-ness makes me cringe so hard. They say the same exact things every single time they speak anywhere. It’s like they’re on a constant TED Talk loop.
I really enjoy listening to Chelsea & I can't take any more time trying to listen to the guests, I tried, I truly did.
Can I get some Ranch with this word salad 🥗. A minimal amount though
These guys really beat around the bush while pretending they’re not. They are not directly answering the more challenging questions, and it seems like they are being defensive, veiled in vague inspirational language and cool-guy personas. Their statements betray them - they say they don’t think they’re better than others, but go on to disparage the foods that most people people eat with judgmental language and paint themselves the saviors who brought veggies to the food dessert. It has a real “fun-guy pastor does mission trip” vibe. Some years back I learned about and began using minimalism as a tool to make my life more manageable. The Minimalists were blowing up back then, and I did find them helpful. But after a while they just started to sound so hallow and weird.
the level of self-awareness and capacity to re-evaluate their life choices makes me like them more
I don’t know about them… I think they missed quite a few of the points Chelsea brought up. Ultimately minimalism is a privilege to an extent because choosing to opt out of something whatever your motives may be is an option only afforded to people who have enough to be able to make that option. I understand it’s also a practice / mindset that anyone regardless of their socioeconomic status is can apply or follow to ultimately ‘simplify’ their lives. They give off very culty vibes.
Extremely culty class-does-not-exist vibes
I'm a big advocate for minimalism specially because people take it very literally when it comes to the actual numbers. and yet I have to agree that these guys are just terrible examples and role models.
But I'm not surprised that white cishet men don't have the awareness or emotional intelligence (or education tbh) to talk about minimalism from an intersectional pov. Even I could've done a better job at that lmao
They were really pushing “rich and poor are both the same”
Interesting interview. They made some good points about not using material possessions as a surrogate for pursuing true happiness, and not letting others dictate what success should look like for you. But they definitely approached the topic from the personal responsibility, self-help perspective where the onus is entirely on the individual to repudiate overconsumption. A more interesting positon (and one TFD generally does well!) would be to look at the capitalist structures in place that benefit from everyone consuming as much as possible.
Great questions asked, it’s a shame they weren’t answered.
I have about 23 minutes left and pretty sure I’m not going to finish it. If I go any further I’m sure I’ll hear a Patrick Bateman monologue at some point. I listen to the podcast and like some of the others I had to come on here to read the comments. These guys sound overly-rehearsed to the point where they’re not engaging directly with most of Chelsea’s well thought out, fair questions. Proof that the squeaky clean vibe does start to feel slimy at some point. I’m going back to the Drew Gooden minimalism video for some catharsis
They are so coach-like...
This episode felt like 90s seminar or real estate agent tapes instead of a conversation
The guy who said "The layer cake of consumerism" and described it as having "dragged our habits from childhood forward", what he's *actually* describing is an example (just one of many, many more) of what's known as *"the hidden injuries of class."* The idea that you have to have the "right image" (i.e. be young and preferably male, not be physically disabled, live in the "right" neighborhood, have a college degree from a "target" school, drive the "right" car, etc.) in order to be "worthy" of the good-paying job you need in order to NOT be poor, homeless, starving, without healthcare, etc. is classist, ableist, ageist *and* male supremacist at its core.
Geography is huge in Alaska. If you live outside the city, you need a car that can handle snow and haul trash because we don't have pickup out here. But still, it is possible to reduce the stuff in our lives.
I love TFD, but this is right up with the Gretchen Rubin interview as far as the guests' complete refusal to live in reality or to operate with any emotional intelligence whatsoever. Yikes
Tbh, I don’t think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Minimalism is an overly individualized, unrealistic solution for at least the poorest half of the US who are mostly frugal by necessity and not choice but it still has a lot to teach those of us who earn 1.5x, 2x, or even 3x the median income. I live in a tech-heavy city and let me tell you, the number of people I run into who say they “barely survive” on $90k/yr, $100k/yr, even $150k+/yr is absolutely bonkers. These are people who really need to hear that minimalism can be an empowering choice. These guys though…they seem to think this is a choice accessible to everyone and that’s very cringe.
I think the cringe factor of these guys and their inability to acknowledge their class privileges is so very glaring to most people. That’s certainly true for me. This totally removes the spotlight from any worthwhile points they and the larger minimalist movement may have. Another guest with a focus on a more inclusive sustainable type of minimalism would have been a better fit imo, especially for people who are new to these ideas.
@@shirin-- when that one guy said the solution to poverty was to learn, earn, and invest, I rolled my eyes so hard. When I was making $16/hr in my city I had nothing to invest! It didn’t matter how much I learned about Vanguard index funds! Gah!
Honestly. Minimalism is not a solution to poverty, you can't minimalism your way out of it. It never meant to be that either, it fundamentally does not have the tools to do so. Which is why I find these arguments frustrating on both ends of the argument. It's not a flaw of minimalism nor its a feature, it's a completely separate thing.
You can be frugal without being mindful, without being caring of your objects and time and energy. As a philosophy and approach to our relationship with consumerism it can be very beneficial to anyone from any economic background.
That being said these guys said a lot of nonsense tbh.
@@morphinpink Not to poverty, but I think it is a solution to poor financial health and future poverty (retirement or sooner) above a certain income level. A lot of people who make more than 70% of their fellow Americans claim to live “paycheck to paycheck” !
@@MusiKo14 It can have financial benefits for sure. I just think it's a bad faith argument to say minimalism is inherently useless because it's not a clear cut solution to poverty, which was never meant to be in the first place.
Chelsea is a rock star. These guys are so canned and self absorbed. They talk about not being happy with their six-figure salaries, but what are they doing with the revenue from this brand? They complain about what they have and then use the platform of "less" to make more ... cool cool cool.
I feel like the thing that is missing in this discussion of t-shirt elitism is what anthropologists call 'embodied cultural capital' or 'habitus'. People who remove the traditional visual markers of success are flaunting their ability to get by on enculturated class privilege.
They also, particularly in tech, were originally (it's been a *while* now) flaunting their status as part of the youth culture, as a way to denote that they were building a new world. There's a stereotype in tech of the brilliant young prodigy who will work themselves into the ground building something brilliant, and it is an instrumental myth in the exploitative, high-burnout work culture in tech and in startups. Not that all people with this aesthetic belong to those camps, but they are definitely trendsetters, particularly on the t-shirt wearing highly paid employee front.
For minimalists, they sure have a lot of excess - three uninteresting guys instead of one, super wordy without saying much that's meaningful, lot of bragging. Definitely my least favorite guests on TFC. Spent most of the time wishing I heard more from Chelsea and less from these three.
I’m glad it’s not just me. These guys don’t seem like ones I’d want to talk to
Yeah they are very repetitive and makes it worse that the have been doing for such a long time
I think the part of that really is the take away is only focus on buying items that are either essential (for your situation), or bring you constant joy. White is minimalism for one is not for another. I know my hobby would not fit in the traditional minimalist mind set, as I really enjoy 3d printing miniatures, painting them, and playing with them in board games. Because I need so many of them and the materials that I use to create them require space and require good ventilation, it becomes necessary for me to dedicate a room for just crafting. However, the fact I can get joy out of not only printing stuff, but painting and then using them, makes it worth while, for me, to spend that kind of money and time. I am in the process of moving so they are all packed away and I can literally feel the emotional strain of not being able to have my couple of hours a week of working in my hobby.
Thanks for watching! Write me on the number above let's talk. 📩👆
I'm always shook whenever someone mentions my country Bulgaria 50:17 lmao. Thanks for the acknowledgement, Chelsea!
The first question made it immediately clear this conversation is like two ships passing in the night.