You know of course that the preferred method of running electrical on concrete walls is with conduit and surface mount boxes. Do not try to recess every thing into the foam. Remember this is a garage. Think about what you are doing. Spend $100 on conduit and attachments use furring strips if you want a finished wall. It is a freaking garage. THINK!!! What is your aggravation worth???
Yuck. Surface mount may be the answer in a commercial or industrial setting but not in my house. If at some later date you want to change stuff then sure do some surface mount stuff but not on a new installation. Read my suggestion above for an answer to this problem.
get some metal boxes and mount them directly to the concrete with some tapcons and an masonry bit. or use conduit - it is a garage after all. it isn't rocket science.
When they say endless daisy chain of receps..... it's 10 max. 1.5A per device on a 20A circuit. If you know your expected loads then figure it that way. Basically you can run 80% or 16A continuous load and 90% or 18A on a load under 3hrs. Wiremold is a way to run wiring " exposed " you see it in a lot of old buildings where things aren't accessible. Consider using metal boxes and mudrings. You simply tapcon the box to the concrete. Did a few thousand of these in a school. Also cutting the icf with a sawzall is really fast.
Fire codes are going to cause you lots of pain. The ceiling in a garage needs fire taped 5/8 rated sheetrock. Where we are TWO layers on the ceiling, and one on the walls separating living space. You will either have to build a separation wall portioning the car portion or do the whole ceiling as required. Also you will have to enclose the staircase with wall. Don't forget the lighting requirement with three way switches top and bottom.. The stringers of the stairway will require fire blocking... probably two for the apparent length. Make sure you do the required sheetrock BEFORE you put in door openers. If the ICF plastic foam is flammable, I sure would not imbed romex cable in it. The suggestions of conduit are good and allows changes in the future.
Guys, I know Home Depot has 2” depth grey boxes and you can use concrete fasteners inside the box to mount them to the wall. There’s also metal electrical boxes too that can be used. They work great.
Requirement for thicker wire, connected to 20A breaker is not because of some crazy local code. I'm from other side of the globe, and it is the same here. Actually, it is ground rule for every electrical system - household, industrial, car, plane etc. - amperage of the breaker must be lower than maximum safe current of every wire connected to it. Otherwise, in case of partial short or overpowered appliance, it is possible to overheat wires and start fire. In your case, you said that cable is 14 gauge, so according to internet it is almost equal to 1.5 sq. mm cable. In my books, for this thickness and type of installation, max. allowed power is around 16A. When you design electrical system, the right sequence is: 1. You choose (possible) appliances and their places (complaint with max power) . 2. You design wiring circuits with enough allowed amperage according point 1. 3. You choose breakers, that protect wires from point 2.
You need to figure in the heat that a refrigerator and a range will put off also. You don't want your fridge next to your range. Because your range will cause your fridge to cycle more due to you cooking. Place cabinet and countertop between the two appliances. That will give you countertop space for spice's and utensils to cook with and stop you from making your fridge do double cycle's when you cook or especially when you can. I have learned that the hard way.
Floor outlets are a disaster in a home, a couple in special locations may be useful, but you will rue the day if you use all floor outlets, they fill with dirt no matter how well the covers fit, you have to open a cover to plug in a vacuum. Just bad all over.
You can use a metal foursquare box and just drill into your concrete and use tap cons are plastic anchors or you can use your plastic box and you can actually grind those down flush just make sure you have enough flange for your screws for your devices but a foursquare metal box with either a plaster rain or a raise cover Should work perfectly because eventually you’re going to cover up that Styrofoam and you can get different size plaster rings so your devices will be flush with whatever you’re finished Wall us. Just a suggestion
voice of experience here - dad was a master electrician, taught me, and - we built our timber frame 20 years ago. floor outlets are an expensive PIA. we put in all perimeter wall outlets by coming from below, and hitting upstairs locations by using a utility chase, which is a 6" interior wall that extends the whole height of the building. for wall outlets fed from basement, there will be a vertical pull thru foam, just cut out the box location, then measure carefully to meet the location drilling the sill / decking from below, then heated a giant nut held by some flexible steel cable, lower nut thru the foam, making a vertical chase from the wall opening to the hole for wire drilled in the basement. saved us the need to delay foam / housewrap. used almost none of the preformed SIP chases. as far as shallow boxes for use in foam, there are metallic shallow boxes that can be attached to the concrete with tapcons. the shallow boxes have "bulged" covers for just about every type of outlet or switch made. probably simpler with pictures or explaining directly...
Gfci's are required in areas like garages that have a concrete floor. If ever the motor in a fridge or any other item such as a deep freeze, shorts to the metal casing if some kid or person with no shoes on were to touch the energized metal casing with bare feet it would kill them most likely, hence the code requirement.
Wall outlets have their own issues. Since they are in the floor, all the dirt and crap that lives on floors migrates into the floor outlets. This causes them to fail overtime unless they are covered. Covered outlets are a pain because you need to cover and uncover them all the time. You can us the little baby covers, but it’s still up to you to put them back in.
people that complain about your direction using on grid power are usually sitting at a computer on grid, and heater on grid. You both have been doing fine for the time off grid. ignore them. the only time i am off grid is scout camp. I am on grid and love it.
Backup generators hooked into the breaker was one of the best things I ever did at my house in the suburbs. Ran a switching box and an outdoor connection. When the power goes out, we have our well pump, a few rooms, the freezer, and a few other things (The hot water is gas, so it mostly works) Best part? Haven't had to use it in 3 years, after needing a generator almost every winter and installing everything, now we never lose power. get ready.
The NEC code say that the breaker must be the weakest must be the weakest part of the circuit. So you can't use a #14 on a 20A breaker, because if something happend on that circuit the #14 could overheat and create a fire, while the #20 will be fine and the breaker will trip before...
Put strapping on the walls, and then you can attach the boxes, and run the wires without having to make any chases. Simple, and the small air space is very effective insulation.
Dual gang mud ring is what you are looking for to make your current electrical boxes work. It makes the transition from 4” square j box mounts to outlet mounts. They are available in different depths for different wall coverings.
Re: @18:18 "it's not that hard" - the difference between value of work done and value of the knowledge behind it. Story: "Alice's nuclear power plant is offline. She stands to lose millions per day in revenue, and it puts her lucrative government subsidies at risk. So Alice asks around finds Bob. Bob is the foremost expert on nuclear reactors, and as luck would have it, he's in town for a conference. So Alice contacts Bob, and pleads with him to come by to take a look. Bob agrees. Once onsite, Bob looks around for ten minutes. Then he pulls a hammer out of his bag, gently taps the wall with it just one time, and says to Alice, “Okay, try it now.” Sure enough, the reactor comes to life! Alice is ecstatic. The next day, Alice receives an invoice from Bob for $500,000. Outraged, she phones Bob and yells, “Do you seriously expect me to pay you half a million dollars for tapping the wall with a hammer?!?!” To which Bob replied, “No. It's $1 for tapping the wall, and $499,999 for knowing where to tap it.” www.snopes.com/fact-check/know-where-man/
Please never ever voluntarily reduce electrical ground. Don't "dumb down" to code. I believe code is bare minimum so anything above should be considered a plus.
One option for winter is to shove the freezer outside (out of the sun would be good). Once you have snow, you have the right temperature for the freezer without power (guildbrook farms did that last winter). That also frees up power to keep you warm inside the house and run other essential appliances.
Also, while I think of it, plastic boxes are a poor choice if you are burying them in solid foam walls. Steel boxes, properly sealed, can withstand a significant short without blowing right through the box itself and igniting the foam. also, should the foam ignite, you need some type of fire stop at the top of the foam wall to prevent it from traveling to the upper structure. Love you guys, just asking you to look at some really serious fire issues that you need to answer/address ... you’ve also got a completely exposed ceiling with no protection to the upper floors.
Always interesting seeing that people dislike your videos. You have given more content than any tv series in history (minus soap) what else do you people want?
What I used for our ICF outlets was boxes for metal studs the only modification I had to make was to shorten the grounding screw on the back of the box and that was 19 years ago with no problems at all .
My suggestion is to do an un-insulated stick frame wall on the inside of the ICF, just like you did on the bathroom and utility room. You already have a system that works - stick with it! You won't need to worry about melting through ICF, you won't have to worry about weird sizes of outlet boxes. If you want to minimize loss of space, you could use a 2x4 on it's side rather than on its edge (or rip it down the middle) - you might need to melt the ICF then, but only for the outlet boxes and not for the wiring. This is effectively furring strips, which you could run horizontally or vertically and not need a bottom or top plate (though its still probably a good idea so you have a place to attach drywall to on the edges).
Hey Jess use 4-square metal bracket boxes. You can buy them 1 1/2" deep or 2 1/8" deep which you have room for and I'd recommend. Then you can use mud rings if you plan to sheetrock or use industrial raised covers for a finshed product considering it's in the garage. Remember to ground all metal boxes. 👍 IBEW
You probably can use 4 inch square metal boxes or 4 11/16 square metal boxes with the side bracket (you can also drill through the sides of these to mount them) and a plaster ring to make it either single gang or two gang. I believe the deep boxes are 2 inches deep, shallow are 1.5 inches deep. You will need a deep box for your range receptacle. All of these will require you to ground the metal box with a 10-32 green ground screw so either buy a box of them or buy the premade ground pigtails which is a piece of green ground wire wrapped around a screw in a bag of 25/50/100. Your panel- having a main breaker in the panel is nice and I would have one. Being as you seem to be a bit of a novice with the electrical, you still should go to the main outside to turn off the power- It only takes one errant movement with a bare ground wire to hurt you very badly if not kill you. Also, new codes and new panels are almost all accepting of twin style breakers, this means you have 40 spaces/80 breakers. Read the sticker or the box from the panel it will say 40/80 on it somewhere. You need a 3/4 greenfill connector for your water heater.
I live north of Syracuse NY. Maintain relative humidity at a minimum of 50% (preferably 60%) in the winter or you will experience dry splitting skin, sinus problems. You will feel cold (skin evaporation) vs higher humidity air. Your wood furniture will fall apart below 30%. Your trim will shrink and expand like crazy with the changing seasons. You should have no problems with condensation and mold if you keep your walls and ceilings above the dew point.
For your transfer switch, may want to find away to have a test circuit only on the power company side so you can attach a light to it to tell when main power is restored without having to switch your whole load off of the generator
I didn't read any of the below, but.......do not hang your 50amp cord outside. Add a 50 amp outdoor outlet. Keep the cord inside. I have the same setup for my garage/house.
I just had a realization - I don't remember seeing a chimney on the house. Did you not allow for wood heat for emergencies? You're in snow country - why wouldn't you put in some kind of wood burning area? I have 2000 sf in Atlanta, GA and use a wood stove for most of my heat. House is kept between 60-70 degrees and, after a test of using just the heat pump for a day, found that I'm saving over $200 per month on electricity by using wood. Seems like, with the large open space you have (unlike my house which has lots of rooms), you would easily be able to heat the house with either a wood stove or rocket stove.
What I think your experience and videos show is that reality of off-grid living varies markedly from the often shown fantasy. For all the hype around solar, wind, renewables, wood, etc. none are without their own disadvantages - low energy density, variable availability (sun/wind doesn’t always shine/blow), energy is energy however you obtain it and the amount needed and cost of the source of power is often far more important than the “greenest.”
We bought a home in 82 right before worst blizzard ever! Due to feet of snow, we were unable to have any appliances delivered. We used the 8ft drift of snow as a fridge for months!
You are both so inspiring. It is like watching my husband and I when we were young. Always rooting for you. My husband and I will be married 50 years this 2019. One could say we have grown up together and I have been married to the bravest, go anywhere, do it all man..
why was a frame wall not installed over the sips. makes electrical/ plumbing easier to install, can hang stuff off of it. would not need to insulate, would just be framing. you would not be cutting into the foam.
I agree with Brian. Four square boxes are rate for number of wires housed within. (Table 314.16(A-NEC) A mud-ring will allow for the depth of the outlet.
Nice fridge, shame you put it on the side. Never do that, the compressor oil will come out the compressor and well your compressor will not last. You might have gotten away with had you left it at least 24 hours before being turned on, once put upright. Basically hoping the oil will drain back down into the compressor. Some designs it will others it won't. Anyway never tilt a fridge or freezer more than say 20 degrees of vertical. It will be in the manual.
The generator will create a dangerous situation. This is because of an incorrect service installation. With the grid power normally on, if the 200 amp breaker at the house exterior panel was turned off(the interlock linkage will turn the generator breaker on) the cord pigtail for the generator will have its male plug and exposed prongs energized. When using the generator it will back feed power to the meter pedestal and to the grid, but no power will go to the basement panel(the interlock linkage would turn off the 200 amp breaker and turn on the generator breaker). The issue is the house exterior panel is wired backwards: the cable from meter pedestal should be connected to the 200 amp "Main" breaker at the top of the panel and the cable from the basement panel connected to the feed thru "load" lugs at the bottom of the panel, the video of 11/21/18 Zap Me & Call Tesla! @21:10 shows the hook up configuration which is the opposite of what it should be. Hope they straighten it out!
Are you allowed to leave that ICF foam exposed in your house? I thought code doesn't allow for that type of insulation to be exposed. Meaning, frame a wall with sheet rock and solve multiple problems, even add more insulation!
You guys have probably already figured it out by now (and there are already so many giving you advice... I hate to clutter up the comments), but there are PVC single and double gang boxes made specifically for ICFs. I found a lot of options at Gordon Electrical Supply. Just search "icf box" and voila!
In a garage. I would just surface mount the electrical in conduit. Easy and quick, and you can change it later....... beats having to "hot knife" all that foam....... wonder if the fumes coming off that burning plastic and foam is ok to breathe...... ?
Suggestion: Re-fabricate the single-gang outlet boxes (shown at 29:12). Remove a half inch of the depth with a bandsaw (2 quick cuts) and epoxy the front and back pieces together. New box is half an inch less deep.
In a garage you need to provide fire protection, as you will be storing vehicles and other flammable. You should plan on 5/8 sheet rock for all your walls and ceilings to protect the upper floors from fire. This will also solve your issue with the standard depth boxes being “too deep”. I don’t think foam walls provide sufficient (any) fire protection ... actually they present a very serious hazard!
I'm not a professional, however, my husband and I have built 10 houses. We utilized trades but did quite a bit of work ourselves. As far as your current situation with the electrical boxes I was just wondering if you could just "shim/fir your wall where the "kitchenette" will be. That would give you plenty of room to inset your electrical boxes?
your generator is not capably of 9000 watts.. you need 2 hp per 1000 watts.. so unless its a 18 hp single cylinder engine.. nope.. find yourself a used light tower generator or older onan diesel like a djc, rated at 12 kw all day long.. or a dkd will get you 6000 watts.. or djb is 6000.. do not depend on your champion.. but at least you have a little honda to keep the lights on.. Please.. get a transfer switch if you want to hook up a generator.. a manual transfer switch is 400 to 800 for your needs.. and very easy to install..
No occupancy permits there? Make sure you got plenty of fire extinguishers spread about, your living in a tinder box. Codes are usually put in place for life safety reasons (some one has died or was injured and there was a lawsuit). Props to you guys for filming the process. I tried and could not justify the extra time it added to building my house, decided to just get to work and make videos later.
Are you planning to put sheetrock or some other wall covering over the inside of the ICFs? If so, I would put some 1x? (2,3,4,whatever) furring strips on the wall to hang the wall covering on. The furring would then give you the additional depth needed for the electrical boxes in the ICFs.
I'm sure people have thought of this before. It's a pain in the ass, and it's not very reliable. It's not like it just stays the same temperature all winter. It can be freezer temperature one day, then above fridge temperature the next day. You can't store either freezer, or many fridge items in those variable conditions. Having said that, if you just don't open the freezer door, the food will probably last a couple of days in there. Most outages wouldn't last longer than that. Lugging hundreds of pounds of frozen goods in and out of your house twice for every power outage? No thank you.Your fridge turnover should be pretty short anyway.
We did that last year when we had a snow storm and that caused a power outage for a couple days. Fortunately it staid below freezing the whole time. Also you can put some frozen food in a cooler, same with the refrigerated stuff. Remember keep the doors closed! Don't go into the refrigerator and grab stuff every few minutes. If you are going to do that grab some stuff and put it into a cooler!
I bought the Samsung washer with the add an add an item door. It was a big mistake. After a very short time the main door would not lock unless we held it shut until it latched. There is no way to adjust the door so after two years and 4 service calls Lowes extended warranty bought the washer back. This was two years ago so hopefully Samsung has corrected that problem.
In my opinion 'off grid' includes not only 'grid power' (electricity and natural gas), but also propane, diesel and gasoline. Off grid is creating your own energy outside of energy companies, whatever way that maybe.
"Professional advice"?? Duh! Like Brian said, mud rings will make those plastic boxes work, but I'm with the others suggesting to surface mount the outlets. It's a garage! First, put up your 5/8" sheetrock (code does NOT allow 1/2" in the garage), then mount thinwall conduit & boxes over the sheetrock. HOPEFULLY, you DO UNDERSTAND the stove REQUIRES a seperate 50 amp 220 circuit; the frig should be on it's own circuit, and the dryer requires it's own 30 amp 220 circuit (you can wire some dryers 120, but very inefficient). You cannot just hook everything up to a "daisy chain" 20 amp circuit. I always use a 3 wire 20 amp circuit for kitchen counter circuits and garages. Find a good do-it-yourself electrical book to understand 3 wire circuits. FYI: your propane consumption in your RV now, is totally NOT comparable to heating your new well insulated home.
I am a commercial electrician, have you looked at commercial 4 square shallow boxes. They should be under 2 inches made of metal and can be mounted through the back to the concrete wall. You can get romex inserts for the knockouts
as per a previous comment. conduit and boxes. but curious to know. up in canada the styrofoam is not allowed as a finished wall. that is a smoke/fire hazard. If you stick the wall add drywall you have the needed depth for your boxes... and then the smoke/fire hazard is somewhat contained and any electrical adds/moves/changes are all easily done
MUST READ! That outside panel - thats new. I never heard of it and I ran several electrical supply houses and equip mfgr rep offices. Sounds like an automatic transfer switch that's been adapted to a house panel. I recommended putting a transfer switch in to you before. Originally I recommended you separate out necessary emergency circuitry and isolate them in their own panelboard. That makes it easy to control incoming sources - street power to non-essential circuits panelboard, and gen set to essentials panelboard, or street to essentials panelboard; essentials fed from transfer switch, which is fed either from the street or the gen set, never both. How does the transfer switch do that? It's a double pole DOUBLE THROW switch. It has a center stop which while being thrown connects to nothing at all. There's a reason. When 200 amps of power is disconnected mechanically it draws an arc like a lightning bolt. That arc ionizes the air which in turn becomes explosive!! Hence, transfer switches have the added protection of squelching the arc before engaging the other power source. Utility companies have videos showing equipment blowing up from arcs drawn thru the air by poorly designed switching circuitry. ON OUTLET BOXES There's a cubic inch requirement in the National Electrical Code book based on wire sizes and number of wires in the box. Outlets in the basement! You can use 4" square deep metallic boxes with 4" square metallic double outlet covers, or 4" square boxes and covers made specifically for 30 A dryer and 50 A stove outlets - then surface mount on basement wall studs using thin wall EMT pipe, not plastic, sized to conductor gauge sizes and number of conductors. Get yourself a copy of the current NEC!!! It has charts in it for everything.
I know you are likely done with this now. But in the ICF house I built we cut the 2" of foam out to the conc core. Then tap con fastened standard metal 2" deep boxes to the conc directly. Also took a saws-all and cut the wire channels to the conc. The tip of the blade just runs against the conc. Then set the wires in so they sit against the conc. Per code your wires need to be in 1" from the surface of the foam is all. Pro Tip: We took little pieces (about 2" long) and bent them to a v. This slips vertically into the horizontal foam channel and wedges the wire back to the conc. Then foam the wire in and done. A saw goes wayyyy faster than a hot knife.
WRT the inside main breaker, this a perfect place to install a whole house surge/lightning suppressor breaker serving both as a main cutoff while adding protection to all downstream electrical devices. Given that almost every appliance, light, etc. is electronic (has a “chip” in it) this well worth it - one lightning strike, power surge pays for it many times over.
one thing i would reccomend is seperating the stairs and bathroom from the rest of the garage such as putting up a wall it would really help with energy efficiency
Something a lot of people dont realize is trying to lead a modern fully convenient life off grid is extremely expensive. Its possible to get monthly energy bills low but once initial costs are factored in the roi times can get pretty crazy. With the lowish cost of electricity and the efficiency of modern appliances etc just being on the grid is hard to beat. If someone is willing to live a primitive lifestyle it can be done inexpensively but there are a lot of sacrificed that need to be made.
My generator interlock panel was inside next to the garage door. Allowed me to set generator outside and run cable under door, but at same time not worry about elements, snow, ice, etc on the interlock panel. Just slide generator outside, plug it in, start it up, flip the interlock switches, close garage door.
All of the new appliances look great ! I know that you will figure out how to find the correct electrical boxes so that you can plug in your new Frig, washer and drier too ! Also glad that the heating to your house is becoming more efficient after sealing up some of the gaps ! Thanks again both Jesse and Alyssa for making this video !
It's still a basement or garage. Both usually have exposed conduit and surface boxes. You're probably going to have to cover the wire chase, and there will be codes for that. This is certainly a design puzzle. ;-)
wouldn´t it be a good idea to set up your solars to an inverter and then a heater? i mean, you still have the panels, why have them sitting collecting dust?
helistorm98 No,they don’t have near enough solar for electric heat and their battery bank is way to small. Electric heat is the single most expensive way to heat. Watch the video,he talks about it.
I know it's too late now but Samsung makes horrible(but expensive) appliances.No one can work on them,parts are almost impossible to find,and they have a lot of electronic issues.
I know it’s been a couple weeks since. But they make a flat double gang or single gang plaster ring for 4” square j-boxes. Use your boxes then put the flat plaster ring on it.
Have you thought about splitting the lights in the lower level into two circuits? run 1/3 of the lights when you don't need much light. I have four lights in the office, but usually run only two
WRT using floor vs wall outlets, you might want to investigate commercial implementations for raised flooring. Floor outlets are very common in the commercial building and many clever/creative solutions have been employed.
Jessy, here in the UK, working on a house built over 100 years ago, rebating the brickwork on every power and switch box location is taken for granted ! Rebating 3/8 of an inch for >10 boxes is NOTHING ! Keep going, just keep going but don't expect everything to be perfect !
Use the shallow metal boxes and screw the back of the box right to the concrete with tapcon screws will be very secure. You will need to make a pigtail off the ground wire and ground the box
It's a garage. Run the electric in surface mounted conduit. If that bothers you too much, fir out a wall.
You know of course that the preferred method of running electrical on concrete walls is with conduit and surface mount boxes. Do not try to recess every thing into the foam. Remember this is a garage. Think about what you are doing. Spend $100 on conduit and attachments use furring strips if you want a finished wall. It is a freaking garage. THINK!!! What is your aggravation worth???
i was thinking the same way lol
It's a Garage.......use EMT and surface mount everything easier to modify later which always happens with garage circuits.
Yuck. Surface mount may be the answer in a commercial or industrial setting but not in my house. If at some later date you want to change stuff then sure do some surface mount stuff but not on a new installation. Read my suggestion above for an answer to this problem.
and maybe even some plywood for the walls
It’s a garage - why not conduit and surface mount boxes? It doesn’t need to look like a living room.
get some metal boxes and mount them directly to the concrete with some tapcons and an masonry bit. or use conduit - it is a garage after all. it isn't rocket science.
When they say endless daisy chain of receps..... it's 10 max. 1.5A per device on a 20A circuit. If you know your expected loads then figure it that way. Basically you can run 80% or 16A continuous load and 90% or 18A on a load under 3hrs.
Wiremold is a way to run wiring " exposed " you see it in a lot of old buildings where things aren't accessible.
Consider using metal boxes and mudrings. You simply tapcon the box to the concrete. Did a few thousand of these in a school. Also cutting the icf with a sawzall is really fast.
Fire codes are going to cause you lots of pain. The ceiling in a garage needs fire taped 5/8 rated sheetrock. Where we are TWO layers on the ceiling, and one on the walls separating living space. You will either have to build a separation wall portioning the car portion or do the whole ceiling as required. Also you will have to enclose the staircase with wall. Don't forget the lighting requirement with three way switches top and bottom.. The stringers of the stairway will require fire blocking... probably two for the apparent length. Make sure you do the required sheetrock BEFORE you put in door openers. If the ICF plastic foam is flammable, I sure would not imbed romex cable in it. The suggestions of conduit are good and allows changes in the future.
Guys, I know Home Depot has 2” depth grey boxes and you can use concrete fasteners inside the box to mount them to the wall. There’s also metal electrical boxes too that can be used. They work great.
Jessie just use a metal 4 square box deep ground your box you're set to go. Use a mud ring and it's ready
Requirement for thicker wire, connected to 20A breaker is not because of some crazy local code. I'm from other side of the globe, and it is the same here. Actually, it is ground rule for every electrical system - household, industrial, car, plane etc. - amperage of the breaker must be lower than maximum safe current of every wire connected to it. Otherwise, in case of partial short or overpowered appliance, it is possible to overheat wires and start fire. In your case, you said that cable is 14 gauge, so according to internet it is almost equal to 1.5 sq. mm cable. In my books, for this thickness and type of installation, max. allowed power is around 16A.
When you design electrical system, the right sequence is:
1. You choose (possible) appliances and their places (complaint with max power) .
2. You design wiring circuits with enough allowed amperage according point 1.
3. You choose breakers, that protect wires from point 2.
You need to figure in the heat that a refrigerator and a range will put off also. You don't want your fridge next to your range. Because your range will cause your fridge to cycle more due to you cooking. Place cabinet and countertop between the two appliances. That will give you countertop space for spice's and utensils to cook with and stop you from making your fridge do double cycle's when you cook or especially when you can. I have learned that the hard way.
Floor outlets are a disaster in a home, a couple in special locations may be useful, but you will rue the day if you use all floor outlets, they fill with dirt no matter how well the covers fit, you have to open a cover to plug in a vacuum. Just bad all over.
Don't complicate it, just throw up a quick 2 x 4 wall against the ICF's and run your wires and boxes for your appliances.
You can use a metal foursquare box and just drill into your concrete and use tap cons are plastic anchors or you can use your plastic box and you can actually grind those down flush just make sure you have enough flange for your screws for your devices but a foursquare metal box with either a plaster rain or a raise cover Should work perfectly because eventually you’re going to cover up that Styrofoam and you can get different size plaster rings so your devices will be flush with whatever you’re finished Wall us. Just a suggestion
voice of experience here - dad was a master electrician, taught me, and - we built our timber frame 20 years ago. floor outlets are an expensive PIA. we put in all perimeter wall outlets by coming from below, and hitting upstairs locations by using a utility chase, which is a 6" interior wall that extends the whole height of the building. for wall outlets fed from basement, there will be a vertical pull thru foam, just cut out the box location, then measure carefully to meet the location drilling the sill / decking from below, then heated a giant nut held by some flexible steel cable, lower nut thru the foam, making a vertical chase from the wall opening to the hole for wire drilled in the basement. saved us the need to delay foam / housewrap. used almost none of the preformed SIP chases. as far as shallow boxes for use in foam, there are metallic shallow boxes that can be attached to the concrete with tapcons. the shallow boxes have "bulged" covers for just about every type of outlet or switch made. probably simpler with pictures or explaining directly...
The refrigerator should be on a separate non GFCI 20 amp circuit, because when the compressor kicks on it will probably cause it to trip.
Mark Ploegstra it doesn’t pull enough amperage for long enough to cause enough heat build up to trip a breaker
Gfci's are required in areas like garages that have a concrete floor. If ever the motor in a fridge or any other item such as a deep freeze, shorts to the metal casing if some kid or person with no shoes on were to touch the energized metal casing with bare feet it would kill them most likely, hence the code requirement.
if its in the garage or basement most codes say it has to be gfci
Unless it's a local code, the NEC only requires the bathroom receptacle(s) to be on a 20A circuit. Lighting and fan can be on 15A circuit.
Wall outlets have their own issues. Since they are in the floor, all the dirt and crap that lives on floors migrates into the floor outlets. This causes them to fail overtime unless they are covered. Covered outlets are a pain because you need to cover and uncover them all the time. You can us the little baby covers, but it’s still up to you to put them back in.
people that complain about your direction using on grid power are usually sitting at a computer on grid, and heater on grid. You both have been doing fine for the time off grid. ignore them. the only time i am off grid is scout camp. I am on grid and love it.
Backup generators hooked into the breaker was one of the best things I ever did at my house in the suburbs. Ran a switching box and an outdoor connection. When the power goes out, we have our well pump, a few rooms, the freezer, and a few other things (The hot water is gas, so it mostly works)
Best part? Haven't had to use it in 3 years, after needing a generator almost every winter and installing everything, now we never lose power. get ready.
Tekedi why do you say mostly works for the hwh
The NEC code say that the breaker must be the weakest must be the weakest part of the circuit. So you can't use a #14 on a 20A breaker, because if something happend on that circuit the #14 could overheat and create a fire, while the #20 will be fine and the breaker will trip before...
Put strapping on the walls, and then you can attach the boxes, and run the wires without having to make any chases. Simple, and the small air space is very effective insulation.
Dual gang mud ring is what you are looking for to make your current electrical boxes work. It makes the transition from 4” square j box mounts to outlet mounts. They are available in different depths for different wall coverings.
Re: @18:18 "it's not that hard" - the difference between value of work done and value of the knowledge behind it.
Story: "Alice's nuclear power plant is offline. She stands to lose millions per day in revenue, and it puts her lucrative government subsidies at risk. So Alice asks around finds Bob. Bob is the foremost expert on nuclear reactors, and as luck would have it, he's in town for a conference. So Alice contacts Bob, and pleads with him to come by to take a look. Bob agrees. Once onsite, Bob looks around for ten minutes. Then he pulls a hammer out of his bag, gently taps the wall with it just one time, and says to Alice, “Okay, try it now.” Sure enough, the reactor comes to life! Alice is ecstatic. The next day, Alice receives an invoice from Bob for $500,000. Outraged, she phones Bob and yells, “Do you seriously expect me to pay you half a million dollars for tapping the wall with a hammer?!?!” To which Bob replied, “No. It's $1 for tapping the wall, and $499,999 for knowing where to tap it.”
www.snopes.com/fact-check/know-where-man/
Please never ever voluntarily reduce electrical ground. Don't "dumb down" to code. I believe code is bare minimum so anything above should be considered a plus.
One option for winter is to shove the freezer outside (out of the sun would be good). Once you have snow, you have the right temperature for the freezer without power (guildbrook farms did that last winter). That also frees up power to keep you warm inside the house and run other essential appliances.
Why are you not going overhead with some of the garage wiring vs. trying to run everything in the walls?
Still don’t understand why people in cold climates loose food during power outages, right outside your door is the worlds largest refrigerator/freezer
Brian Miller it might not get cold enough to protect frozen goods, have to worry about attracting animals
Why not just frame a wall in front of the ICF?
Connor Ward That’s what I was thinking. Probably much quicker than looking for some specific item.
I agree with the lawn rebel...
agreed looks like he only needs 1/2" so Just some Firing Strips would work
more than likely that wld cost extra money but that is the best easy idea ive seen that done use 2x3s and add extra insulation
Also, while I think of it, plastic boxes are a poor choice if you are burying them in solid foam walls. Steel boxes, properly sealed, can withstand a significant short without blowing right through the box itself and igniting the foam. also, should the foam ignite, you need some type of fire stop at the top of the foam wall to prevent it from traveling to the upper structure. Love you guys, just asking you to look at some really serious fire issues that you need to answer/address ... you’ve also got a completely exposed ceiling with no protection to the upper floors.
Always interesting seeing that people dislike your videos. You have given more content than any tv series in history (minus soap) what else do you people want?
What I used for our ICF outlets was boxes for metal studs the only modification I had to make was to shorten the grounding screw on the back of the box and that was 19 years ago with no problems at all .
Why not fur out the walls with 1x2s or 2x2s to get the depth needed for the outlets?
My suggestion is to do an un-insulated stick frame wall on the inside of the ICF, just like you did on the bathroom and utility room. You already have a system that works - stick with it! You won't need to worry about melting through ICF, you won't have to worry about weird sizes of outlet boxes. If you want to minimize loss of space, you could use a 2x4 on it's side rather than on its edge (or rip it down the middle) - you might need to melt the ICF then, but only for the outlet boxes and not for the wiring. This is effectively furring strips, which you could run horizontally or vertically and not need a bottom or top plate (though its still probably a good idea so you have a place to attach drywall to on the edges).
Hey Jess use 4-square metal bracket boxes. You can buy them 1 1/2" deep or 2 1/8" deep which you have room for and I'd recommend. Then you can use mud rings if you plan to sheetrock or use industrial raised covers for a finshed product considering it's in the garage. Remember to ground all metal boxes. 👍 IBEW
You probably can use 4 inch square metal boxes or 4 11/16 square metal boxes with the side bracket (you can also drill through the sides of these to mount them) and a plaster ring to make it either single gang or two gang. I believe the deep boxes are 2 inches deep, shallow are 1.5 inches deep. You will need a deep box for your range receptacle. All of these will require you to ground the metal box with a 10-32 green ground screw so either buy a box of them or buy the premade ground pigtails which is a piece of green ground wire wrapped around a screw in a bag of 25/50/100.
Your panel- having a main breaker in the panel is nice and I would have one. Being as you seem to be a bit of a novice with the electrical, you still should go to the main outside to turn off the power- It only takes one errant movement with a bare ground wire to hurt you very badly if not kill you. Also, new codes and new panels are almost all accepting of twin style breakers, this means you have 40 spaces/80 breakers. Read the sticker or the box from the panel it will say 40/80 on it somewhere.
You need a 3/4 greenfill connector for your water heater.
I live north of Syracuse NY. Maintain relative humidity at a minimum of 50% (preferably 60%) in the winter or you will experience dry splitting skin, sinus problems. You will feel cold (skin evaporation) vs higher humidity air. Your wood furniture will fall apart below 30%. Your trim will shrink and expand like crazy with the changing seasons. You should have no problems with condensation and mold if you keep your walls and ceilings above the dew point.
For your transfer switch, may want to find away to have a test circuit only on the power company side so you can attach a light to it to tell when main power is restored without having to switch your whole load off of the generator
I didn't read any of the below, but.......do not hang your 50amp cord outside. Add a 50 amp outdoor outlet. Keep the cord inside. I have the same setup for my garage/house.
You could turn those small gray boxes 90 degrees to hit the studs in the icfs.
I just had a realization - I don't remember seeing a chimney on the house. Did you not allow for wood heat for emergencies? You're in snow country - why wouldn't you put in some kind of wood burning area? I have 2000 sf in Atlanta, GA and use a wood stove for most of my heat. House is kept between 60-70 degrees and, after a test of using just the heat pump for a day, found that I'm saving over $200 per month on electricity by using wood. Seems like, with the large open space you have (unlike my house which has lots of rooms), you would easily be able to heat the house with either a wood stove or rocket stove.
What I think your experience and videos show is that reality of off-grid living varies markedly from the often shown fantasy. For all the hype around solar, wind, renewables, wood, etc. none are without their own disadvantages - low energy density, variable availability (sun/wind doesn’t always shine/blow), energy is energy however you obtain it and the amount needed and cost of the source of power is often far more important than the “greenest.”
Frame 2x4 wall on their sides over the icf? You need to add sheetrocking over the icf anyways right? For fire proofing right?
We bought a home in 82 right before worst blizzard ever! Due to feet of snow, we were unable to have any appliances delivered. We used the 8ft drift of snow as a fridge for months!
Just build a 2x4 wall against the sip so it does not get disturbed and you can use a normal outlet box
You are both so inspiring. It is like watching my husband and I when we were young. Always rooting for you. My husband and I will be married 50 years this 2019. One could say we have grown up together and I have been married to the bravest, go anywhere, do it all man..
The back feed interlock protects the Linemen working on the grid, good call!
why was a frame wall not installed over the sips. makes electrical/ plumbing easier to install, can hang stuff off of it. would not need to insulate, would just be framing. you would not be cutting into the foam.
Have you guys tried the metal boxes? If those are the perfect depth you just take a couple tapcons and screw them into the concrete.
I agree with Brian. Four square boxes are rate for number of wires housed within. (Table 314.16(A-NEC) A mud-ring will allow for the depth of the outlet.
For Heating get a: Ground Source Heat Pump... (borehole would likely be easier in your area)
For Power Reserves get a: Tesla Powerwall Battery
Nice fridge, shame you put it on the side. Never do that, the compressor oil will come out the compressor and well your compressor will not last. You might have gotten away with had you left it at least 24 hours before being turned on, once put upright. Basically hoping the oil will drain back down into the compressor. Some designs it will others it won't. Anyway never tilt a fridge or freezer more than say 20 degrees of vertical. It will be in the manual.
I’m happy to help with electrical free on your time. I’m a master electrician 20 plus years. I left message on your website weeks ago. Dave.
The generator will create a dangerous situation. This is because of an incorrect service installation.
With the grid power normally on, if the 200 amp breaker at the house exterior panel was turned off(the interlock linkage will turn the generator breaker on) the cord pigtail for the generator will have its male plug and exposed prongs energized.
When using the generator it will back feed power to the meter pedestal and to the grid, but no power will go to the basement panel(the interlock linkage would turn off the 200 amp breaker and turn on the generator breaker).
The issue is the house exterior panel is wired backwards: the cable from meter pedestal should be connected to the 200 amp "Main" breaker at the top of the panel and the cable from the basement panel connected to the feed thru "load" lugs at the bottom of the panel, the video of 11/21/18 Zap Me & Call Tesla! @21:10 shows the hook up configuration which is the opposite of what it should be. Hope they straighten it out!
Are you allowed to leave that ICF foam exposed in your house? I thought code doesn't allow for that type of insulation to be exposed. Meaning, frame a wall with sheet rock and solve multiple problems, even add more insulation!
I thought it needed to be behind drywall for fire safety with fumes.
👍
You guys have probably already figured it out by now (and there are already so many giving you advice... I hate to clutter up the comments), but there are PVC single and double gang boxes made specifically for ICFs. I found a lot of options at Gordon Electrical Supply. Just search "icf box" and voila!
In a garage. I would just surface mount the electrical in conduit. Easy and quick, and you can change it later....... beats having to "hot knife" all that foam....... wonder if the fumes coming off that burning plastic and foam is ok to breathe...... ?
its not you will need to protect from fire either another type of coating or sheet rock
Suggestion: Re-fabricate the single-gang outlet boxes (shown at 29:12). Remove a half inch of the depth with a bandsaw (2 quick cuts) and epoxy the front and back pieces together. New box is half an inch less deep.
frame with 3x3 and sheetrock over existing walls for electrical ?
In a garage you need to provide fire protection, as you will be storing vehicles and other flammable. You should plan on 5/8 sheet rock for all your walls and ceilings to protect the upper floors from fire. This will also solve your issue with the standard depth boxes being “too deep”. I don’t think foam walls provide sufficient (any) fire protection ... actually they present a very serious hazard!
I'm not a professional, however, my husband and I have built 10 houses. We utilized trades but did quite a bit of work ourselves. As far as your current situation with the electrical boxes I was just wondering if you could just "shim/fir your wall where the "kitchenette" will be. That would give you plenty of room to inset your electrical boxes?
Does the refrigerator work? Worst thing you can do is lay a refrigerator down like that. It will ruin them in a hurry.
your generator is not capably of 9000 watts.. you need 2 hp per 1000 watts.. so unless its a 18 hp single cylinder engine.. nope.. find yourself a used light tower generator or older onan diesel like a djc, rated at 12 kw all day long.. or a dkd will get you 6000 watts.. or djb is 6000.. do not depend on your champion.. but at least you have a little honda to keep the lights on..
Please.. get a transfer switch if you want to hook up a generator.. a manual transfer switch is 400 to 800 for your needs.. and very easy to install..
No occupancy permits there? Make sure you got plenty of fire extinguishers spread about, your living in a tinder box. Codes are usually put in place for life safety reasons (some one has died or was injured and there was a lawsuit). Props to you guys for filming the process. I tried and could not justify the extra time it added to building my house, decided to just get to work and make videos later.
Are you planning to put sheetrock or some other wall covering over the inside of the ICFs? If so, I would put some 1x? (2,3,4,whatever) furring strips on the wall to hang the wall covering on. The furring would then give you the additional depth needed for the electrical boxes in the ICFs.
Good presentation Jesse. Really nice refrigerator design.
You would think he could watch other RUclips channels to figure out how to wire ICF.
Power outage = put food outside in the winter. I don't know why people doth think about this.
I'm sure people have thought of this before. It's a pain in the ass, and it's not very reliable. It's not like it just stays the same temperature all winter. It can be freezer temperature one day, then above fridge temperature the next day. You can't store either freezer, or many fridge items in those variable conditions. Having said that, if you just don't open the freezer door, the food will probably last a couple of days in there. Most outages wouldn't last longer than that. Lugging hundreds of pounds of frozen goods in and out of your house twice for every power outage? No thank you.Your fridge turnover should be pretty short anyway.
We did that last year when we had a snow storm and that caused a power outage for a couple days. Fortunately it staid below freezing the whole time. Also you can put some frozen food in a cooler, same with the refrigerated stuff. Remember keep the doors closed! Don't go into the refrigerator and grab stuff every few minutes. If you are going to do that grab some stuff and put it into a cooler!
Use a mudring on that junction box. I don't know about Idaho but this is fine in Florida where I do electrical!
they make a shallow metal box that can be screwed to block or concrete. normally we use them on the out side of block or brick walls
you need a 4 square metal box 1" and a half deep with mudring that you can anchor to the concrete
Simple solution put refrigerator on wheels out side during power outages in winter
I bought the Samsung washer with the add an add an item door. It was a big mistake. After a very short time the main door would not lock unless we held it shut until it latched. There is no way to adjust the door so after two years and 4 service calls Lowes extended warranty bought the washer back. This was two years ago so hopefully Samsung has corrected that problem.
In my opinion 'off grid' includes not only 'grid power' (electricity and natural gas), but also propane, diesel and gasoline. Off grid is creating your own energy outside of energy companies, whatever way that maybe.
"Professional advice"?? Duh! Like Brian said, mud rings will make those plastic boxes work, but I'm with the others suggesting to surface mount the outlets. It's a garage! First, put up your 5/8" sheetrock (code does NOT allow 1/2" in the garage), then mount thinwall conduit & boxes over the sheetrock. HOPEFULLY, you DO UNDERSTAND the stove REQUIRES a seperate 50 amp 220 circuit; the frig should be on it's own circuit, and the dryer requires it's own 30 amp 220 circuit (you can wire some dryers 120, but very inefficient). You cannot just hook everything up to a "daisy chain" 20 amp circuit. I always use a 3 wire 20 amp circuit for kitchen counter circuits and garages. Find a good do-it-yourself electrical book to understand 3 wire circuits. FYI: your propane consumption in your RV now, is totally NOT comparable to heating your new well insulated home.
Link for ICF electrical boxes. www.wind-lock.com/icf-electrical-boxes/
You could use 2x4 to offset the electrical boxes. That gives you 2~ inches to get the boxes and put your drywall over the 2x4.
I am a commercial electrician, have you looked at commercial 4 square shallow boxes. They should be under 2 inches made of metal and can be mounted through the back to the concrete wall. You can get romex inserts for the knockouts
try 2 1/2 inch metal boxes drill and screw to the concrete and the knock outs are on the sides already
as per a previous comment. conduit and boxes. but curious to know. up in canada the styrofoam is not allowed as a finished wall. that is a smoke/fire hazard. If you stick the wall add drywall you have the needed depth for your boxes... and then the smoke/fire hazard is somewhat contained and any electrical adds/moves/changes are all easily done
MUST READ!
That outside panel - thats new. I never heard of it and I ran several electrical supply houses and equip mfgr rep offices. Sounds like an automatic transfer switch that's been adapted to a house panel. I recommended putting a transfer switch in to you before.
Originally I recommended you separate out necessary emergency circuitry and isolate them in their own panelboard. That makes it easy to control incoming sources - street power to non-essential circuits panelboard, and gen set to essentials panelboard, or street to essentials panelboard; essentials fed from transfer switch, which is fed either from the street or the gen set, never both.
How does the transfer switch do that? It's a double pole DOUBLE THROW switch. It has a center stop which while being thrown connects to nothing at all. There's a reason. When 200 amps of power is disconnected mechanically it draws an arc like a lightning bolt. That arc ionizes the air which in turn becomes explosive!! Hence, transfer switches have the added protection of squelching the arc before engaging the other power source. Utility companies have videos showing equipment blowing up from arcs drawn thru the air by poorly designed switching circuitry.
ON OUTLET BOXES
There's a cubic inch requirement in the National Electrical Code book based on wire sizes and number of wires in the box.
Outlets in the basement! You can use 4" square deep metallic boxes with 4" square metallic double outlet covers, or 4" square boxes and covers made specifically for 30 A dryer and 50 A stove outlets - then surface mount on basement wall studs using thin wall EMT pipe, not plastic, sized to conductor gauge sizes and number of conductors. Get yourself a copy of the current NEC!!! It has charts in it for everything.
I have floor outlet and I regret putting them in nothing but problem with them
You can buy covers for the junction boxes which allow you to mount a plug.
I know you are likely done with this now. But in the ICF house I built we cut the 2" of foam out to the conc core. Then tap con fastened standard metal 2" deep boxes to the conc directly. Also took a saws-all and cut the wire channels to the conc. The tip of the blade just runs against the conc. Then set the wires in so they sit against the conc. Per code your wires need to be in 1" from the surface of the foam is all. Pro Tip: We took little pieces (about 2" long) and bent them to a v. This slips vertically into the horizontal foam channel and wedges the wire back to the conc. Then foam the wire in and done. A saw goes wayyyy faster than a hot knife.
WRT the inside main breaker, this a perfect place to install a whole house surge/lightning suppressor breaker serving both as a main cutoff while adding protection to all downstream electrical devices. Given that almost every appliance, light, etc. is electronic (has a “chip” in it) this well worth it - one lightning strike, power surge pays for it many times over.
one thing i would reccomend is seperating the stairs and bathroom from the rest of the garage such as putting up a wall it would really help with energy efficiency
Something a lot of people dont realize is trying to lead a modern fully convenient life off grid is extremely expensive. Its possible to get monthly energy bills low but once initial costs are factored in the roi times can get pretty crazy. With the lowish cost of electricity and the efficiency of modern appliances etc just being on the grid is hard to beat.
If someone is willing to live a primitive lifestyle it can be done inexpensively but there are a lot of sacrificed that need to be made.
If the plastic junction boxes are the depth you want, you can use flat mud rings to allow you to mount your outlets and switches to the junction box.
My generator interlock panel was inside next to the garage door. Allowed me to set generator outside and run cable under door, but at same time not worry about elements, snow, ice, etc on the interlock panel. Just slide generator outside, plug it in, start it up, flip the interlock switches, close garage door.
All of the new appliances look great ! I know that you will figure out how to find the correct electrical boxes so that you can plug in your new Frig, washer and drier too ! Also glad that the heating to your house is becoming more efficient after sealing up some of the gaps ! Thanks again both Jesse and Alyssa for making this video !
It's still a basement or garage. Both usually have exposed conduit and surface boxes. You're probably going to have to cover the wire chase, and there will be codes for that. This is certainly a design puzzle. ;-)
wouldn´t it be a good idea to set up your solars to an inverter and then a heater? i mean, you still have the panels, why have them sitting collecting dust?
helistorm98 No,they don’t have near enough solar for electric heat and their battery bank is way to small. Electric heat is the single most expensive way to heat. Watch the video,he talks about it.
I know it's too late now but Samsung makes horrible(but expensive) appliances.No one can work on them,parts are almost impossible to find,and they have a lot of electronic issues.
I know it’s been a couple weeks since. But they make a flat double gang or single gang plaster ring for 4” square j-boxes. Use your boxes then put the flat plaster ring on it.
Every day I wake up around 3:30! For some reason I like to watch these video
Have you thought about splitting the lights in the lower level into two circuits? run 1/3 of the lights when you don't need much light. I have four lights in the office, but usually run only two
WRT using floor vs wall outlets, you might want to investigate commercial implementations for raised flooring. Floor outlets are very common in the commercial building and many clever/creative solutions have been employed.
Jessy, here in the UK, working on a house built over 100 years ago, rebating the brickwork on every power and switch box location is taken for granted ! Rebating 3/8 of an inch for >10 boxes is NOTHING ! Keep going, just keep going but don't expect everything to be perfect !
Use the shallow metal boxes and screw the back of the box right to the concrete with tapcon screws will be very secure. You will need to make a pigtail off the ground wire and ground the box
have you checked with mobile home builders? they have to be rated along with regular boxes. and they are designed to fit into smaller spaces.