Q&A: Is there a commandment against premarital sex? Tim Keller
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- Опубликовано: 6 мар 2011
- Timothy Keller was born and raised in Pennsylvania, and educated at Bucknell University, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and Westminister Theological Seminary. He is pastor of the Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan, which he started in 1989 with his wife, Kathy, and three young sons. Today Redeemer has nearly six thousand regular attendees at five services, a host of daughter churches, and is planting churches in large cities throughout the world.
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i wished i'd listened to someone explaining the logic behind not engaging in premarital sex because not only would it have help me as a single person but even when i was engaged, it would have helped us as a couple to know without any doubt why we were waiting till marriage. Still i thank God for His mercies..
This is a hard subject, which is why i'm here listening to this now..but a lot of the comments i'm reading are people complaining that they're religious but committed to their bf/gf's for life and don't seek marriage.. isn't marriage your way of presenting your relationship to god and asking for his blessing to make it work out and prosper? I'm asking out of direction and not out of judgement.. I know this day and age love, marriage, and relationships are crazy but that's just in this moral world not the bible... can someone give me some kind've clarity on what you're all thinking?
So Jesus was against lusting after someone else calling it "adultery of the heart," but He would've been completely ok with acting out on that lust by having sex? How does that make sense to you?
The Bible is replete with condemnations of fornication. Why is this even a disputable point? Pornea is the word used in the Greek.
This is really a great video if you want to understand two things:
A. Why legally recognized gay marriage is such a big deal...because those who hold the view that marriage makes sex moral would no longer be able to use the argument that homosexuality was sinful because the partners could not be married.
B. It shows how the patriarchal colonization of intimate relationships is still present in the modern church. The word "belonging" has two different connotations, one is romantic, the other is sinister...and we have a better understanding of property rights than we do of self-sacrifice.
C. bonus: If the Lord's Supper is symbolic of sex, it is the strongest case for premarital sex that I have heard as this event falls chronologically before the wedding feast in the New Testament.
If you are curious about a New Christian Sexual Ethic
To Sarah LeBoe, if you couldn't wait till marriage or find that you don't like the sex, maybe you didn't love the person enough to begin with and therefore shouldn't get married. Look, the whole ideological point of non-fornication is to hold the PERSON above the SEX. Also I honestly don't see how you wouldn't know you'd like sex with the person or not. If you're attracted to them and you're beautiful in each other's eyes and you genuinely love one another, through sickness and in death, trust me, you would like to have sex with them and you will enjoy it. Don't marry someone if you can't imagine still being committed to them when they lose everything or get old and wrinkly.
Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. ( I Cor. 7:1-2)
The word "lust" is a poorly misunderstood word. It means to covet someone's property (see Rom 7:7). Genuine biblical "lust" has nothing to do with normal sexual fantasies. The point about fornication is not disputable because pornea simply means prostitution,
I listened very carefully to what this "scholarly" man had to say, and while he says a lot of righteous-sounding things he couldn't give one single scripture to support his views. That's because the scriptures don't condemn premarital sex at all. The lovers in the song of Solomon make love in chapter 2 then have their wedding in chapter 3. So I see don't why the matter is an issue at all.
Then you'd better never break up with the person you have sex with and remain bound to them for life.
George, I agree with you.
@@yjk5737in that totally fine cause I'm not a cheater
Thanks for trying but I've studied the matter thoroughly and the facts disagree with your examples.
1 Cor 7:2: Marriage is only assumed in this passage. The greek words for a wife is just the word for 'woman'. The greek word for husband is just the word for a 'man'.
Heb 13:4. According to the Strong's concordance, the word translated as marriage bed can also include premarital cohabitation.
Col 3:5 condemns fornication but it's probably just referring to temple prostitution.
Still sounds like marriage is more of a safeguard to avoid sexual morality than an actual rule of thumb. Why would having sex with someone you've made a commitment to outside of legal marriage be a sin? What makes marriage a deal breaker here, especially considering that in biblical times a marriage wasn't even complete until it was consummated? I don't think people who make arguments like this for premarital sex are as selfish and sinful as it's assumed they are. In most cases it seems the argument that all premarital sex is sinful requires a lot more logical leaping than to simply say non-monogamous and loveless sex is a sin, and leave it at that.
Your echoing my thoughts completely! Thank you! Me and my boyfriend have mad a commitment to each other, we've had sex and we're not married. I don't see that as a sin. we're in a monogamous, very long term relationship.
Laurie House What commitment have you made to each other? To stay monogamous for an indefinite period of time? I think the largest problem, if you believe in God, is that you've made an agreement with your boy friend but you haven't made one with God. Watch out about trying to say you're married in your heart also, if that's true why not actually get married? I know someone who is very close to me who tried to justify sex outside of marriage by saying that they were married in their hearts, but sure enough, after a very difficult break up, they are no longer together. Due to Christ's work on their heart, they no longer attempted to justify premarital sex, and even though they almost got married, they never did because this person's significant other couldn't go without sex. You might say that would never happen to you, but we can say that we would do something in a situation, or a situation would go some way, but if you're confident with that, than do it and see if you were right.
***** Yes, that's the commitment we've made to each other. To stay faithful to each other, an in a monogamous relationship. I'd like to know your thoughts on what Daniel Kogel has said.
Laurie House"To stay faithful to each other, an in a monogamous relationship"
If you're committed to that degree, it's weird why you refuse to marry. If commitment for life is what you want, marriage shouldn't frighten you. The fact that you refuse to do it tacitly speaks to the underlying motives you guys have.
A marriage is a covenant, one that is made for life. A relationship that exists outside of that covenant, is not binding.
regelemihai I never said I refused to marry. It's something we will have to talk about when we're at that stage. Right now we are both content where we are at. There is no reason to rush into anything. And what are my underlying motives???
The only way to make premarital sex a sin is by going through a whole bunch of cryptic apologeticss. The bible makes things clear as far as commandments. Thou shalt not steal, kill,etc. The bible just dosnt really say anything about premarital sex as far as commandments go. The word Pornea is speaking of the list of sexual crimes listed in Leviticus 20. Premarital sex is not one of them. Lets not confuse suggestions with commandments. God wants you stay married but divorce is not a sin.
Dan that doesn’t make it a sin. Divorce is allowed in the Bible by the cause of adultery or domestic abuse many people fail to understand what 1cor7:15 really means
Thanks for your response. I'm going to be blunt enough to tell you that I'm not going to waste my time on some academic wild-goose chase to prove someone else's opinion. It's the obligation of the person who asserts a specific claim to make their own case for it. Even Timothy Keller admits in the video he's not 100% sure. I am 100% sure of my views, but that doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me.
> Yeah, it COMPLETELY changes the meaning and context of the passage.
Yes I agree, so why are you raging. At least you admit to misquoting it.
> Every Greek study Bible puts this passage under the heading of marriage,
I agree *most* will add such embellishments to the text. Of course those translations have copyrights and you cannot copyright facts. No Greek word for marriage has been used yet. That doesn't happen until 1 Cor 7:9, only then we can talk about the context of marriage.
Its interesting that the word "love" is seldom used when discussing this matter. Why make sex anything else than what it really is... a way to share love. Instead sex gets tangled up in a bunch of theoretical nonsense. Do people honestly believe that God invented love, so that we then could regulate it? Love is the one thing that doesnt need, and shouldnt get regulated. Of course rape isnt love/sex. Promiscues loving isnt love/sex. If its destructiv then it isnt love/sex. And now to the bible. And by the bible I mean the NT. I have only read the Swedish translation, so I dont know what they mean by the word "Adultery. But in swedish the word for adultery is "Äktenskapsbrott". Wish, directly translated to english means: "a crime against marriage". This means that someone is married and have sex with someone they arent married to. This means that you cant commit "äktenskapsbrott(adultery)" unless you are married. Let me give a likeness, wish Jesus often did: If i spit on the streets of Sweden, and that is against the law in some other country, am I then breaking the law? No, because I live in sweden. Its the same thing with Adultery. Another thing that bible believers often talks about is that the bible has been missinterpated over the years. So it has to be analysed and corrected. But wait a minute! If the bible is the direct word of God, how then can it be corrupted with time? Dont you think God would make shure that that couldnt happen?
You keep saying the text plainly shows Paul is talking of marriage, yet you fail to provide one single Greek word to set that context. The only word you have provided is ambiguous as to whether it is a woman or a wife. Furthermore, you're now putting words in my mouth. I shouldn't be surprised because you grossly misquoted the bible earlier. You are so steadfast and committed to your fantasy even plain facts will not convince you otherwise. Congratulations. I hope it serves you well.
Yeah, it COMPLETELY changes the meaning and context of the passage.
"You failed to mention which word"
Every Greek study Bible puts this passage under the heading of marriage,but it's good to know you know better.
The word is Gunaika, which means both "wife" and "woman;"In this context it's wife.Otherwise,given your warped interpretation,the passage would read "t is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman...THEREFORE, each man should have sexual relations with his own woman."
1. Context is set before a statement is made, not after.
2. The term "Marital Duty" is an embellishment which is added during translation. It doesn't exist in the Greek.
Prove it?
Ok. According to the strong concordance there are 9 Greek words in 1 Cor 7:3. Not one of those words refer to marriage. Therefore, in order to insert the term 'marital duty' requires embellishment.
He has said that the word translated as fornication in older translations and "sexual immorality" in newer translations, that is pornia means sex with anyone who is not your spouse. That's pretty unambigious. It's a hard one to live up to, I know, but ignoring it isn't going to help.
I wouldn’t say it’s hard to live up to
Except the word porneia did not mean sex with anyone not your spouse. It meant sex with prostitutes (while married or unmarried), public sex, orgies, multiple partners, transactional as in payment, fertility rites and other ritualized forms of perversion practices in Greek society. This is why Paul is so upset at the Corinthian converts who brought those perversions into the church after converting (they continued those practices). It was the English King James translators who without understanding the culture and without an equivalent English word decided to use "fornication" as the word to substitute for porneia. It never meant sex between loving unmarried people, engaged couples or any of those interpretations that followed from the mistranslation.
@MsDrSantana Yes it does. You make no sense because essentially what you're saying is that as long as it's not with prostitutes then it's completely fine. But here's the problem with that idea; making money and paying money is not wrong in the eyes of God. If what you said regarding sex was true then the two things: premarital sex and exchanging money wouldn't be wrong if placed together. In other words, two rights don't make a wrong.
He said the new testament, he paraphrased it, but it is biblical in a few different books of the bible, l. In the ten commandments it says in the Tenth Commandments: "...Thy shall not covet your Neighbor's wife..." coming from a NASB bible and bionically speaking. Mind you one important aspect of this new wisdom that you are seeking its only for believers, if you wanted to look for your self, there a few scriptures in 1 Corinthians 7:2, Hebrews 13:4, Colossians 3:5
take care
Yes, plenty :). About waiting "that long"; one point of saving sex for marriage is that it makes sex unique and special between just you and the one person you love and trust enough to marry; to give your life to. You can feel secure that you're not being compared to some ex-lover. So you preserve the intimacy. So it's not just "sex", it's much more special; it shows how much you love each other; that you saved the best for each other, and first built a good relationship without needing sex.
This is what people used to say as a reason not to marry a divorced woman. She could compare to the former husband. The same was said about a woman who had been widowed. What about a woman that was raped or worse repeatedly abused as a child? What about Elizabeth Smart? To say it "preserves the intimacy" if she hasn't been with a prior man is arcane. It also assumes all marriages are the first marriage.
OK I it not a problem, that is one of the Bibles of many that I have. It just happened to be one that I picked up. You can go to any Bible and find what you want to find. If you don't want to find it then you will never do so. There's numerous accounts biblically speaking with examples. But I'm not trying to argue with you. and thank you for your conversation. Soon and very soon you will find what you have been looking for. I love you
In marriage...the two shall become one and therefore are joined by God who sanctifies them.-
@Gss. Yes woman is another term and one of the terms for wife. Since wife is a title it has other meanings throughout. And since any title that is given out has an assignment and authority to it. Since the Bible is written from Hebrew origin you should try looking there. MARRIAGE another term for one of the strength institutes on earth. It say not to defile the Marriage bed. Meaning it's a certain kind of bed and not just any place.
Nonsense,just checked it myself.
If not one of those words refer to marriage, why is the first sentence in the chapter saying that it's not good for a man to have sexual relations with a woman?The context clearly explains that sex, therefore, is good within marriage.Otherwise,the text says "it's not good for a man to have sex with a woman,therefore each man should have "sexual relations with his WOMAN"
You're doing eisegetical gymnastics do avoid the simple meaning of the text.
You're wrong.
Good question. No, there is not.
"Yes I agree, so why are you raging"
Being sarcastic. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
" No Greek word for marriage has been used"
Semantics. It uses Gunaika for wife, even though the word is interchangeable with "woman."
I've said this before,but since you keep ignoring it I'll repeat: The text PLAINLY shows that Paul is talking of marriage.Otherwise,given your view, he's saying: "It's not good for a man to have sex with a woman,therefore a man should have sexual relations with his woman.
so,what is the punishment for pre-marital sex?
Biological sexual relations creates soul ties between the spirits involved. If it is sex with anybody else who is not your significant other, you are carrying extra baggage; that soul tie is an entry for demonic oppression. So the “punishment” is basically a way to interpret the result of sex. Same way that becoming pregnant with a baby can be righteous or problematic.
You failed to mention which word 1 Cor 7:3 pertained to marriage. Your context regarding verse 1 is completely incorrect. Anyone can verify that you even misquoted it. It says "it is good for a man to not touch a woman". But you mixed it up and said "it is not good for a man to touch a woman", which has a significantly different meaning than what it actually says. Perhaps you should double check your own presumptions before you accuse others of eisegesis gymnastics.
If looking at a woman who is not your wife with desire is committing adultery in your heart, how much more having sex with her?! you think Jesus was only talking to married men in that passage fr?
There is no passage of the Bible that says premarital sex as a sin against God. The association between sin and premarital sex is a newer Christian idea. The only reference to premarital sex being a sin in the Bible is in the New Testament. This premise although, is generally dismissed by theologians because the Greek word pornei, or sexual immorality is commonly incorrectly translated into the English word fornication. Biblical times women were the owned property of a man. Men ruled over women and their children. Women had very few, if any, rights, and men often bought women from their families or at an auction, usually at age twelve and a half. The fathers owned the women (daughters, wives, concubines, handmaidens, servants etc.) and if you wanted to have intercourse with one of his properties, then you had to ask his permission.
If a father sold a daughter, he would get more money for her if she was a virgin. Non-virgins were less expensive to buy. If a man purchased a daughter at a virgin price, and she was not, or she did not bleed during intercourse, then he could return her to her father and get his money back.
Does anyone know anybody who waited until their wedding night?? Who waited that long? What if you get married and find out you don't like sex with that person...
Sarah LeBoe Yep. Me. Heterosexual male. Was 27 when l got married. Over the years l have met a number of guys who did not have sex before marriage. No regrets about staying virgins.
It simplifies marriage NOT to have had a whole lot or even a few sexual relationships beforehand.
It means not ever having to compare your wife with a former sex partner. You just start off a whole new sex life together. It is not sailing off into the sunset - it is a whole lot more like sailing into the sunrise. It's the start of a completely new day. Without a complicated history washing up messy waves behind you.
Believe it or not, sex with my wife 30 plus years later has never gotten boring. In fact it is BETTER.
I have never gotten into pornography. I have never watched a porno film. I am free from films replaying sexual fantasies in my head. Sex with my wife is free from pollution. I can focus on giving my wife pleasure. From guys l know trapped in porn, sex is all about THEM having pleasure. Selfish sex leads only to lonely sex. Which is miserably close to masturbation. Not for me!
The Bible way re. sex and purity is the best way. God is good. His ways are the best.
Well it depends do u believe in marrying one person that is right for you? If you pray to meet the right one I believe you will. And god would not make the right one wrong for you.
it so hard to date a non christrian
Ravi “Happy Ending” Zacharius
Well no you want go to hell, If you are a believer 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, " Therefore, If ANYONE is in Christ, the new creation has come. The old has gone, the new is here! (NIV) Basically saying if you believe in Jesus Christ you have become a new creature old things from the past are no more, clean slate in God's eye. and the Key word you you said is BF, not husband. Just giving you another perspective.
take care
well that gave me no ansers
I agree with most of what he says. Especially about sex allowing people to have a deeper connection, making them "yours". But I'm not too keen on marriage. I'm with my boyfriend for life, he's mine and i'm his. its that simple.
I'm interested why you say you're "not keen" on Marriage. Given that you say you're with your boyfriend for life etc, then why not formalise it? Just curious. Not an antagonistic question.
That's how marriage used to be in Christendom, just you 2 people saying their married. That's all. No government involved.
He didn't use the Bible to support his views. No where does the Bible forbid premarital sex. Of course it can be wrong in many scenarios, but it is not a sin in and of itself.
He quoted straight from the original Greek, and even went to the trouble of explicitly stating "The Bible says...". How do you mean he didn't use the Bible?
You are delusional and demon possessed.
Birdieupon Where did he quote a verse in Greek? He did refer to πορνεια but did not provide proof of his definition. Where did he quote a verse? Have you ever studied the word πορνεια for yourself to see what Bible believing Greek scholars say about it?
LogosTheos Is saying to someone "you are delusional and demon possessed" helpful for studying a biblical subject or is it just name calling? Are you really sure that I'm demon possessed? I being one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Savior. If you are not sure, is it loving and appropriate to say such a thing? Remember that the Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus when they refused to break from the traditions. Is it possible that you are being like them?
Bill Carriere You don't believe in Jesus (Matthew 7:21-23). Fornication is a sin and your conscience should bear witness to this truth if you were a true Christian before you even begin to examine scripture since the moral law is naturally written on your heart (Romans 2:15).
This did not help me at all!!
You’re not answering the question!
No there isn't.
And Hebrews 13:4 considers sex outside of marriage to be immoral: “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” This verse can't just be limited to adultery, since both “sexually immoral” and “adulterous” are listed.
1. Not necessarily. "The boy is a magician. He plays that role in his upcoming school play." The second sentence explicates the first.
Second, even within this context, the preceding passage doesn't promote your interpretation.
2. "It doesn't exist in the Greek."
Prove it please.
Abstinence before marriage. In what way does this even apply to having children with your wife? Completely backwards, but I'm glad you at least conceded my point, even though you did so with laden sarcasm.
Take care.
This wrong
No, it most certainly does not. It covers all of the immoral sexual behaviors, among which are also prostitution. However, the Bible always uses sex within the context of marriage. To say that Jesus or Paul would be ok with couples engaging in sexual behavior with people OTHER THAN THEIR SPOUSES, is utter nonsense. Marriage is being taught in the Bible as the ethical covenantal union; there's no other modality that has equal standing before God.