Regarding trees and fruit from said trees, in Iceland we have a saying “sjaldan fellur eplið langt frá eikinni” literally translates to “the apple seldom falls far from the oak”. In this case apple and oak just mean generic fruit and generic tree, so maybe that is what is happening in Völsunga Saga.
On the outskirts of Trondheim, Norway, there is a place called Heimdal. Idk if it has anything to do with the norse god as its literal meaning in english is, home valley. I stumbled upon your channel yesterday and have been binge watching ever since. I just want to say thank you for your excellent content. Tusen takk :)
@@klasnm_5364 From his other videos, he has stated that this is likely unrelated as the "dal" in "heimdal" is in his opinion unrelated from the "dallr" in "Heimdallr". The former means home valley, but he says it is still a question of whether the two l "dallr" has anything to do with that and he is of the opinion that it doesn't. They just happen to sound similar in modern Norwegian.
@@bluewhaleking6227 " and then Lancelot(me) was the most awesome and badass knight and everyone loved him and he boned the super hot queen, because he was much better and cooler than Arthur"
Interesting. I have noticed Ullr's name being in many places, and I have always been intrigued by that. Tor/Thor is also everywhere, moreseo than Odin.
I've a question about the tradition of norse myth: I've heard the hypothesis that we're essentially missing a chunk of the beliefs and myths of lower class people ("Valhalla isn't a heaven for farmers"). Seeing as the Edda was for skaldik i.e. "courtly" purposes, it could have left out stuff not relevant to this sphere. Thoughts?
I've been told/taught that Valhøll is only the place for warriors (or more precisely; for one half of all fallen warriros, the other half goes to Sessrúmnir, Friggs hall), but even that this warrior-exclusive place, is not even their ultimate end (they will return to fight in Ragnarøkkr, and most likely some will die). The ultimate end is Hel. Even the gods go there in the end. When Baldr got shot by Höðr, both Baldr and his grieving wife Íðunn go there and stay there. In a mythology, where even the gods are capable of dying, and going to a certain afterlife-place, it's only logical to conclude that other (lesser) beings end up there as well.
ServantOfOdin Yes, but we have these specific, concrete myths about heavens/afterlives for warriors (as you mentioned) and for seamen (Rans net. Not nice but concrete). So for vikings, warlords, far-traders and the like, rich people, people who'd hire skalds. What we have about the afterlives of farmers or craftsmen is pretty foggy (no pun intended). So are we maybe missing something, myths that maybe didn't make it into Snorra Edda?
That's of course pure speculation, but I think not purely nonsensical. If you look at roman gods, you have the olympian twelve, but also a myriad of gods of local nature, of harvest, sheep and a roof above the head, gods of family, stuff common people would care about. And in modern nordic folklore there are fae, elves, trolls and similar nature spirits, who could maybe be the remnants of some lower class cults, who aren't about war and the end of the world, but about more day to day things.
As said, Hel it is. Those who don't fight or die a violent death, won't see those places. Even Ran empties her nets now and then, yet I do not recall where they end up.... I'm generally told that anyone (warrior or not) will end up in Hel. Some sooner and on a direct route, some later via Valhöll, Sessrúmnir, or other places. If there are other places, specific for each of the various crafts, that'd be quite interesting, but also rather futile. Hel is the end. How can people who don't "work" for death leave an "eternal" place of their craft to reach the final end of Helheimr? You understand what I'm pointing at?
Feels a bit odd (potentially) correcting you on this but there are places named potentially after Heimdallr. Off the top of my head there's a Heimdal used as a location name in Trondheim, it's the name of Trondheim's southernmost boroughs, seemingly there's archaeological proof that this area's named after the god Heimdallr. There's a Heimdal (village) both in in Trondheim and Løten municipality (kommune), there's a place called "Heimdalen" not all that far from Jotunheimen; It's also a location name in Oslo. There's also several road names potentially named after the god either directly or indirectly. If you were to google map search "Heimdal(s)" and "Heimdall(s)" with the various endings denoting it's a road, "vei", "veien", "väg","vägen", "vej", "gata", "gatan", "gate", "gade" and so on, you'll find lots of locations all across all of Scandinavia seemingly named after the god Heimdallr. Though there seems to be a higher number of them in Norway and there's seemingly a distinct lack of them on Iceland. Being a compound name like it is tho there might be other reasons why some of these place names came to be, many possibly also named after each other How'bout this for a hypothesis: "Our lack of records regarding Heimdallr is due to him being less prominent to the old Icelandic believers and thus subsequently also to the later scribes and scholars on Iceland responsible for the vast majority of the records we have today." Hardly unknown that outcasts / expats take distance or even deface parts of their heritage, culture and history that's more associated with the ones that "cast them out" /motivated them to move. Place named after Heimdallr seem most concentrated around Trondheim old name Nidaros, the old traditional seat of the king. it's easy to imagine some connection existing, actual, constructed or perceived between the god and the king. Souring the Icelandic settlers relationship with the god. PS. Sorry 'bout any potential typos also love your stuff.
I noticed you mentioned the volsung saga being loosely based on events having to do with the roman empire much earlier. I swear I remember either reading somewhere or seeing a video where it was mentioned that it was possibly based on the story of Arminius and the battle of Teutoburg Forest. In this case the dragon Fafnir would be the roman column that got ambushed and Arminius would be Sigurd. This was supposed to be based on the name of his father Segimer. Is this what you were referencing? I've always liked the idea but wasn't sure if people were just coming up with their own euhermeristic interpretation.
Nikanoru That is fascinating - if you find a video or any sources on this (be they historical or conjecture - either one is interesting) I would love to have a few links on this topic...
Jackson Crawford is basically asking to be shipped with someone. IS THERE JACKSON CRAWFORD FANFIC? NO?! WHY THE HELL NOT? I need shipping ideas because god damn it, this needs to be written and I will gladly accept that honor.
Joanie Costlow yeah er... I've started to see the stirrings of Dr. C having a growing fangirl (and fanboy ;-) ) following... sort of inevitable, I think...
I think he's purposefully trying to gain a hardcore following. He's too ... all of that good stuff - with the comments, and the voice, and the hair. He's too goddamn attractive. I find RPFs gross as fuck, but I'm not afraid to try my hand at writing something just to make this happen. I will ship this bastard with Will Graham if I have to. Actually, that's ... that's exactly what I want to do. Oh god ... Gramford. This is going to end poorly for everyone. I will begin my formal apologies post haste.
So I'm sitting here crocheting and listening, and then: 12:12 -- I'm sorry, what? *looks up at screen* Wow. That must be what people think when I tell them how to say congratulations in Welsh. o_O
I try to view every temporal and regional narrative as valid and look for consistencies among the narratives and emergent patterns. The point not being to try to form a uniform narrative, but rather to identify organizing principles in order to have an idea of the overall framework, allowing for informed extrapolation.
According to Simon Roper, the Old English reflex of Ullr would be Wuldor, which is actually a word in Old English, meaning "Glory." I wonder if it's connected to "Wonder" or "Valor?" Heimdallr would become something like Hamdael, and in Beowulf there's mentions of "Hama," which some believe to be a euhemerized Heimdallr. Make of that what you will!
Would you agree the present account of Rabenschlacht at least contains an element of fan fic in making Ermanerik and Theoderik meet? Or could one of the two be homonyme, or other sources be wrong to separate them a century? Anyway, that is the kind of variations I think tradition going wild is likely to submit accounts to. Rabenschlacht does not make Theoderik a great scholar (hint : Boethius is very distinct from Theoderik, even if contemporary). It does not make Ermanerik a saint able to raise the dead. And you would agree historical Ermanerik and Theoderik were also warriors, as presented in Rabenschlacht?
7:20 Tyr = Zeus, a possible linguistic cognate, but could be mistaken, and name could refer to diverse real life persons (a king banishing his father from Crete to Italy, a man accompanying Odin to Uppsala) even if same name. Does not prove a major variation over time in myth. Codex Regius vs Edda = var over time (possibly), but either vs PIE myth depends on reconstruction of there being one. Pre-Odinist religion best attested is Nerthus worship - no trace of IE connection, that I know, and Njord may back then have been her priestess.
4:38 Old Believers in Russia and Armenians are basically Catholics in sacrament theology. In Real Presence, Armenians denying it are "odd man out", but therein also unfaithful to their own past : formerly one monk of theirs condemned the Thondrakian heresy due to among other things them denying it. On other issues, Thondrakians were a bit more Catholic, since not considering certain sacramentals necessary.
4:53 Position of Hail Mary and exact wording varies between Catholics in Poland and Old Believers, but both have such - unlike most Protestant denominations. Both reflect the position All Generations shall call Her blessed, she was raised body and soul to Heaven and intercedes for us along with Her Son. I think similar observations could be made about even Armenians and Nestorians, though the latter would obviously not have the added prayer "Holy Mary, Mother of God ..." (still a separate one among Orthodox, optionally useful as such for RC too) or the Orthodox rephrasing Theotoke Parthene Khaire. On Her, they would be the odd man out - but less so than Protestants.
5:15 "most Christians" or "most Evangelical Christians" think of both Heaven and Hell as both permanent and direct destinations? No Catholics think of Heaven as automatically direct, they would consider those who go directly there without passing through Purgatory are fewer and better than the rest. Of the saved. Variations in "Hell as permanent" would be confusions between Hell and Purgatory (both being unpleasant places in Sheol/Hades). However, some Orthodox prefer thinking of soulsleep, and also ironically accuse John XXII for having been momentarily heretic - for agreeing with their theory on soul sleep. Giving real presence of sould and body in Heaven or Hell a postponement up to Doomsday. Nevertheless, they also pray for the dead, probably because a prayer for someone not yet known to be saved or damned by us, can be taken into account by God who sees all time from an aeternal present. Hence, that difference makes little practical difference, compared to Protestants saying "you don't need a lot of monks praying when you are dead".
6:15 "myth" is a very ambiguous word. Its basic Greek meaning is "narrative" or "storyline". The myth of Persai by Aischylos is not just historic, but undisputedly so, it is just in fleshing out that he had poetic liberty. As a Christian I cannot give same truth value to a myth of Uranus and Gaea or Muspelheim and Niflheim being separated by Ginnungagap as to myth of Ulysses returning or of Sigurd getting killed by a brother-in-law or by a vassal of the royal b-i-l. The latter seem fairly likely. And as to there being variations, that is minor distortions of original story, true or false. Diversity of fleshing out or forgetting part and replacing with fleshing out. Obviously, I equally am not giving equal truth value to Odin, Vile and Vé killing Ymer and creating Earth as to Odin and a few others (probably Thor, certainly Njord and Frey) appearing in Uppsala region and founding a dynasty.
Regarding trees and fruit from said trees, in Iceland we have a saying “sjaldan fellur eplið langt frá eikinni” literally translates to “the apple seldom falls far from the oak”. In this case apple and oak just mean generic fruit and generic tree, so maybe that is what is happening in Völsunga Saga.
A Norse justice league? Nobody tell Hollywood about this!
On the outskirts of Trondheim, Norway, there is a place called Heimdal. Idk if it has anything to do with the norse god as its literal meaning in english is, home valley.
I stumbled upon your channel yesterday and have been binge watching ever since. I just want to say thank you for your excellent content. Tusen takk :)
the literal meaning of heimdal in modern norwegian, not english. The pressure of writing to a linguist got the better of me, sorry.
@@klasnm_5364 From his other videos, he has stated that this is likely unrelated as the "dal" in "heimdal" is in his opinion unrelated from the "dallr" in "Heimdallr". The former means home valley, but he says it is still a question of whether the two l "dallr" has anything to do with that and he is of the opinion that it doesn't. They just happen to sound similar in modern Norwegian.
The most famous "fanfiction" must be King Arthur and the holy grail.
And Lancelot started as a fanfic writer's edgy OC!
@@bluewhaleking6227 " and then Lancelot(me) was the most awesome and badass knight and everyone loved him and he boned the super hot queen, because he was much better and cooler than Arthur"
@@markusnavergard2387 Sounds like a really cheesy opening to a 90s romantic comedy.
Sami mythology has a version of Thor called Thoragalles (Thor Karl, Thor the Freeman) who, likewise, is far from their "main god"
Interesting. I have noticed Ullr's name being in many places, and I have always been intrigued by that. Tor/Thor is also everywhere, moreseo than Odin.
I've a question about the tradition of norse myth: I've heard the hypothesis that we're essentially missing a chunk of the beliefs and myths of lower class people ("Valhalla isn't a heaven for farmers"). Seeing as the Edda was for skaldik i.e. "courtly" purposes, it could have left out stuff not relevant to this sphere. Thoughts?
I've been told/taught that Valhøll is only the place for warriors (or more precisely; for one half of all fallen warriros, the other half goes to Sessrúmnir, Friggs hall), but even that this warrior-exclusive place, is not even their ultimate end (they will return to fight in Ragnarøkkr, and most likely some will die). The ultimate end is Hel. Even the gods go there in the end. When Baldr got shot by Höðr, both Baldr and his grieving wife Íðunn go there and stay there. In a mythology, where even the gods are capable of dying, and going to a certain afterlife-place, it's only logical to conclude that other (lesser) beings end up there as well.
ServantOfOdin Yes, but we have these specific, concrete myths about heavens/afterlives for warriors (as you mentioned) and for seamen (Rans net. Not nice but concrete). So for vikings, warlords, far-traders and the like, rich people, people who'd hire skalds. What we have about the afterlives of farmers or craftsmen is pretty foggy (no pun intended). So are we maybe missing something, myths that maybe didn't make it into Snorra Edda?
That's of course pure speculation, but I think not purely nonsensical. If you look at roman gods, you have the olympian twelve, but also a myriad of gods of local nature, of harvest, sheep and a roof above the head, gods of family, stuff common people would care about. And in modern nordic folklore there are fae, elves, trolls and similar nature spirits, who could maybe be the remnants of some lower class cults, who aren't about war and the end of the world, but about more day to day things.
As said, Hel it is. Those who don't fight or die a violent death, won't see those places. Even Ran empties her nets now and then, yet I do not recall where they end up....
I'm generally told that anyone (warrior or not) will end up in Hel. Some sooner and on a direct route, some later via Valhöll, Sessrúmnir, or other places. If there are other places, specific for each of the various crafts, that'd be quite interesting, but also rather futile. Hel is the end. How can people who don't "work" for death leave an "eternal" place of their craft to reach the final end of Helheimr? You understand what I'm pointing at?
ServantOfOdin I don't understand your second-to-last sentence. Could you clarify that?
I love the idea of the story of "Thor and Tyr go out to get a beer cauldron from Tyr's dad". They sound like teens looking to score drinks for a party
I mean, it was for a party if I remember right.
NORSE
JUSTICE LEAGUE
"Outparty him"
Well now I have something new to look into
Feels a bit odd (potentially) correcting you on this but there are places named potentially after Heimdallr.
Off the top of my head there's a Heimdal used as a location name in Trondheim, it's the name of Trondheim's southernmost boroughs, seemingly there's archaeological proof that this area's named after the god Heimdallr. There's a Heimdal (village) both in in Trondheim and Løten municipality (kommune), there's a place called "Heimdalen" not all that far from Jotunheimen; It's also a location name in Oslo.
There's also several road names potentially named after the god either directly or indirectly. If you were to google map search "Heimdal(s)" and "Heimdall(s)" with the various endings denoting it's a road, "vei", "veien", "väg","vägen", "vej", "gata", "gatan", "gate", "gade" and so on, you'll find lots of locations all across all of Scandinavia seemingly named after the god Heimdallr. Though there seems to be a higher number of them in Norway and there's seemingly a distinct lack of them on Iceland.
Being a compound name like it is tho there might be other reasons why some of these place names came to be, many possibly also named after each other
How'bout this for a hypothesis:
"Our lack of records regarding Heimdallr is due to him being less prominent to the old Icelandic believers and thus subsequently also to the later scribes and scholars on Iceland responsible for the vast majority of the records we have today."
Hardly unknown that outcasts / expats take distance or even deface parts of their heritage, culture and history that's more associated with the ones that "cast them out" /motivated them to move.
Place named after Heimdallr seem most concentrated around Trondheim old name Nidaros, the old traditional seat of the king. it's easy to imagine some connection existing, actual, constructed or perceived between the god and the king. Souring the Icelandic settlers relationship with the god.
PS. Sorry 'bout any potential typos also love your stuff.
its cool how your face is a sun dial... the shadow of your face on the board vs beginning and 25min in across the words
I noticed you mentioned the volsung saga being loosely based on events having to do with the roman empire much earlier. I swear I remember either reading somewhere or seeing a video where it was mentioned that it was possibly based on the story of Arminius and the battle of Teutoburg Forest. In this case the dragon Fafnir would be the roman column that got ambushed and Arminius would be Sigurd. This was supposed to be based on the name of his father Segimer. Is this what you were referencing? I've always liked the idea but wasn't sure if people were just coming up with their own euhermeristic interpretation.
Nikanoru That is fascinating - if you find a video or any sources on this (be they historical or conjecture - either one is interesting) I would love to have a few links on this topic...
So all this talk of different versions and authors, I dare ask again, what's your take on what Neil Gaiman has written?
Illogical Immigrant Dr. Crawford has a video about American Gods.
'Once a movie is released, that is the form that it has' George Lucas: 'Hold my beer'
Jackson Crawford is basically asking to be shipped with someone. IS THERE JACKSON CRAWFORD FANFIC? NO?! WHY THE HELL NOT?
I need shipping ideas because god damn it, this needs to be written and I will gladly accept that honor.
Joanie Costlow yeah er... I've started to see the stirrings of Dr. C having a growing fangirl (and fanboy ;-) ) following... sort of inevitable, I think...
I think he's purposefully trying to gain a hardcore following. He's too ... all of that good stuff - with the comments, and the voice, and the hair. He's too goddamn attractive. I find RPFs gross as fuck, but I'm not afraid to try my hand at writing something just to make this happen.
I will ship this bastard with Will Graham if I have to.
Actually, that's ... that's exactly what I want to do. Oh god ... Gramford.
This is going to end poorly for everyone. I will begin my formal apologies post haste.
Why are you like this
Is Tyr considered a son of Odin? as that would make sense to compare him to Zeus.
In Norse mythology has Ragnarok happened? Or is it still considered to be a future event?
Future event
So I'm sitting here crocheting and listening, and then:
12:12 -- I'm sorry, what?
*looks up at screen* Wow. That must be what people think when I tell them how to say congratulations in Welsh. o_O
Janis Cortese I'm sitting here knitting and I'm thinking he had fun saying that 3 times fast 😄
I think after you get used to a language, you just stop thinking about it. I don't blink at "llongyfarchiadau" anymore ...
I feel so called out
Wait ullr is that what ullern in Oslo is named after
Love the whole concept of this lol
1:15 *cough* George Lucas
Heimdullar, Heimdaller . . . pretty similar.
I try to view every temporal and regional narrative as valid and look for consistencies among the narratives and emergent patterns. The point not being to try to form a uniform narrative, but rather to identify organizing principles in order to have an idea of the overall framework, allowing for informed extrapolation.
Does Lothbrok actually translate to "shaggy chaps" and not "shaggy pants", or is that a joke?
“Chaps” is cowboy slang for pants/leggings.
Chaps are a protective overgarment that goe over one's pants.
According to Simon Roper, the Old English reflex of Ullr would be Wuldor, which is actually a word in Old English, meaning "Glory." I wonder if it's connected to "Wonder" or "Valor?" Heimdallr would become something like Hamdael, and in Beowulf there's mentions of "Hama," which some believe to be a euhemerized Heimdallr. Make of that what you will!
Paronomasic of Frantz.
Would you agree the present account of Rabenschlacht at least contains an element of fan fic in making Ermanerik and Theoderik meet?
Or could one of the two be homonyme, or other sources be wrong to separate them a century?
Anyway, that is the kind of variations I think tradition going wild is likely to submit accounts to. Rabenschlacht does not make Theoderik a great scholar (hint : Boethius is very distinct from Theoderik, even if contemporary). It does not make Ermanerik a saint able to raise the dead.
And you would agree historical Ermanerik and Theoderik were also warriors, as presented in Rabenschlacht?
7:20 Tyr = Zeus, a possible linguistic cognate, but could be mistaken, and name could refer to diverse real life persons (a king banishing his father from Crete to Italy, a man accompanying Odin to Uppsala) even if same name.
Does not prove a major variation over time in myth.
Codex Regius vs Edda = var over time (possibly), but either vs PIE myth depends on reconstruction of there being one.
Pre-Odinist religion best attested is Nerthus worship - no trace of IE connection, that I know, and Njord may back then have been her priestess.
NB, if the commonly accepted etymology is right, Tyr, or Tiwas, is Lith. Dievas.
What if instead it was a loan from Lith. Tewas (father)?
I like what you lend to learning experience. You speak Old Norse so effortlessly... Do like the scruffy beard though... happy you aren't a pagan.
This video has a "too low volume problem".
Helgi = Link = The Doom Guy
Stay woke.
May the soles of your boots come unglued for implying that Harry Potter is the more popular fandom over Star Wars!
4:02 "most denominations" = Protestants, who are not most Christians.
4:27 beliefs : Protestant views of Sacraments and Modernist views of exegesis are off-limit.
4:38 Old Believers in Russia and Armenians are basically Catholics in sacrament theology.
In Real Presence, Armenians denying it are "odd man out", but therein also unfaithful to their own past : formerly one monk of theirs condemned the Thondrakian heresy due to among other things them denying it.
On other issues, Thondrakians were a bit more Catholic, since not considering certain sacramentals necessary.
Most issues, however, Thondrakians give an impression of in between Albigensian and Protestant.
4:53 Position of Hail Mary and exact wording varies between Catholics in Poland and Old Believers, but both have such - unlike most Protestant denominations. Both reflect the position All Generations shall call Her blessed, she was raised body and soul to Heaven and intercedes for us along with Her Son.
I think similar observations could be made about even Armenians and Nestorians, though the latter would obviously not have the added prayer "Holy Mary, Mother of God ..." (still a separate one among Orthodox, optionally useful as such for RC too) or the Orthodox rephrasing Theotoke Parthene Khaire. On Her, they would be the odd man out - but less so than Protestants.
5:15 "most Christians" or "most Evangelical Christians" think of both Heaven and Hell as both permanent and direct destinations?
No Catholics think of Heaven as automatically direct, they would consider those who go directly there without passing through Purgatory are fewer and better than the rest. Of the saved.
Variations in "Hell as permanent" would be confusions between Hell and Purgatory (both being unpleasant places in Sheol/Hades).
However, some Orthodox prefer thinking of soulsleep, and also ironically accuse John XXII for having been momentarily heretic - for agreeing with their theory on soul sleep. Giving real presence of sould and body in Heaven or Hell a postponement up to Doomsday.
Nevertheless, they also pray for the dead, probably because a prayer for someone not yet known to be saved or damned by us, can be taken into account by God who sees all time from an aeternal present.
Hence, that difference makes little practical difference, compared to Protestants saying "you don't need a lot of monks praying when you are dead".
6:15 "myth" is a very ambiguous word.
Its basic Greek meaning is "narrative" or "storyline".
The myth of Persai by Aischylos is not just historic, but undisputedly so, it is just in fleshing out that he had poetic liberty.
As a Christian I cannot give same truth value to a myth of Uranus and Gaea or Muspelheim and Niflheim being separated by Ginnungagap as to myth of Ulysses returning or of Sigurd getting killed by a brother-in-law or by a vassal of the royal b-i-l. The latter seem fairly likely.
And as to there being variations, that is minor distortions of original story, true or false. Diversity of fleshing out or forgetting part and replacing with fleshing out.
Obviously, I equally am not giving equal truth value to Odin, Vile and Vé killing Ymer and creating Earth as to Odin and a few others (probably Thor, certainly Njord and Frey) appearing in Uppsala region and founding a dynasty.