I grew up with amplified music, though my grandfather was an amateur violin player. The JBL PA sound of the 70's and early 80's is what got me interested in audio (that and the mono tube amp plus 8" AlNiCo driver my same grandpa gave me when I was 10). Those JBL PAs where all horns, even the bass cabinets where front loaded horns made from plywood. Back then I was always amazed about the difference in sound quality between the life band and the taped music they played before and during the breaks. Fast forward, a week ago, I was at an open air concert. First of all, what a progress we have made with lighting technology. And how we have regressed with the PA systems. Now you have on each side of the stage an array of speakers, small enough to fit two of them in a living room. I guess the bass drivers are 12" but you can not see it because the enclosure is looks like a smallish plastic mono-block (or blob, rather). Amazing the amount of bass it makes and amazing the amount of sound pressure it makes. But here is the kicker, life music does not sound life any more. And in fact, the tonality hardly changed when the digital music files during the break where played. We where standing at the left side of the stage. But still within the stage boundaries if you looked squarely on to it. The band was there, playing. And their movements where corresponding with the music. But where we where standing, the sound came almost only from the left column of speakers. There was literally no sound stage. I think I was one of the minority who even noticed that.
Hugo, I have a similar impression with modern PA systems. I feel like a punch-bag, the bass insulting my body, and the highs ravaging my ear canals. It's like the art is gone, beauty missing, replaced by beating us to submission by a bully who is all muscle and no grace, no brains, no soul.
@@realworldaudio We (in our group of friends) used to say that a Peavey speaker sounds like a big transistor radio. Today PA speakers sound like big Bluetooth speakers. There was a reason why JBL back then used Horns for everything. I think horns are the way to go for open air and very large rooms. The smaller the room the more compelling the (also non sonic) drawbacks become.
@@hugobloemers4425 I.e. lots of watts and compression in modern PA amplifiers, so that there's very little dynamic range and everything literally sounds the same? The antithesis of a traditional horn loaded system.
I also agree with the observation you make around the 15-minute mark. I considered my old horn speakers pretty good when it came to their overall presentation and fidelity but once I upgraded to my current speakers, I realized that the idea I had of what a pair of "critical" and "revealing" speakers were had to be thrown out the door. The level of detail in the new speakers where several orders of magnitude better than my old ones. This is both a blessing and a curse I think. It's a blessing because you can truly appreciate the full depth of the music to a greater extent, but a curse because a poorly matched amplifier, low-quality cartridge or poorly recorded music will much more apparent than before.
Haha, Janos! LOL….It really does look like you’re sitting with Paul. (Screenshot! 😂) I personally love horns. I’ve added to my list of projects, refurbishing and upgrading the crossovers in a pair of 1986 Klipsch Forte l’s I got from my neighbor. They’re not, “shouty”, especially if they’re set up correctly. Even as is, they already sound really nice, but I only tow them in a tiny bit. They’re lively and dynamic, but also good with quiet passages, and that’s not lost at lower volumes too.
I think tunnel vision mentality is lurking out there to ensnare lots of audiophiles. There's an idea / ideal that only a very narrow range of sound interpretation can be considered high quality: the super narrow road to reproduce the most audiophile recordings to their highest glory. everything else is abysmal or sub-standard and deserves no attention from a music lover... That mentality /approach brings with it the sad fact that one's music library shrinks to almost nothing - only audiophile recordings fit, and none of "real world" music qualifies, and for real world music (aka 99% of all music ever produced / recorded) sounds GOOD / KICK ARSE with a real world loudspeaker.... one that's not hyper-ioptimized to a singular goal (like imaging and ultra-rez). Sure, in these areas it is not hyper-specialized, but on other areas (like dynamics) it retains what these real world recordings demand. ; ) Cheers for your kits Nick!!!!!
@@realworldaudio 100% Janos. There’s a ton of great music out there that’s not considered, “audiophile”, which unfortunately leaves some looking for ‘perfection’ in music, which is just not going to happen. I own plenty of records from MoFi, Analog Productions”, MOV (music on vinyl), etc., but most of my musical library is original pressings. I kind of assume it wouldn’t be listenable to certain people. I grew up as a skater kid, reading Thrasher Magazine where I found a lot of music there and in skate videos. I was listening to mostly punk rock, ska, reggae, and good ol’ rock n roll. I didn’t start listening to jazz or classical / orchestral music until years later. That being said, I think I usually approach music from a musician’s point of view first and foremost, which means I’m not first listening for high fidelity or other well recorded music, but instead what’s going on musically. I listen for instrumentation, chords used, how good the players are, song structure, tonality, etc. You can of course also notice if it’s well recorded, but I’m not thinking about that first. I think ya pretty much nailed it in your comment, but I could go on and on about this subject. Thank you, Janos, and Cheers to your lions, Kintaro and Machi! 🦁🎶💜🦁🎶💜😊
Also…., Why does it seem most musicians are not audiophiles? I think they’re / we are more interested in getting better at their instrument or working on tone, I certainly appreciate good sound quality and go out of my way to make it happen, but the overall musicality does come first.
Joseph Crowe is a commercial horn speaker manufacturer. The prices start in the USD 5000/speaker-area and I'm sure he doesn't sell many (beautiful speakers though, great craftsmanship). Luckily he also offers plans for DIYers. I built one of them and can attest to their quality. Another commercial manufacturer is "A for Ara" with smaller horns and big Multi-Entry horns and their prices can go even higher. So it's not for everybody and big and expensive. I'm not sure this has to do with being an experienced audiophile.
I've heard many good things about Joseph Crowe speakers. I have not heard of A for Ara yet, thanks! Joseph is a very very experienced audiophile, I'm quite sure he has deeper knowledge and experience base than most commercial speaker designers.
Fun Challenge. Room 12.5’ x 12.5’ but dedicated, almost anything goes. Hearing tops about 15k, hearing skill about 2+/10, put this way, you think u can hear a “good” Paganini cover. Simple tastes, deity, trad, world, pop “mum, I hurt me finger” style, folk, simple classical - solo 2 sextet ish. Nice music. €1,500 / $1,630 budget. What would you do Monday club? Sorry, cheeky way of a new person asking for free advice from masters, worst that can happen is no response. I’ve managed to get a Linn Axis second hand 275, thinking of an AT54o-ML or 74o-ML to replace the ortifon red. Oldchen EL-84 is €159. possibly the same on shipping, TB W8-2145 in a Caintuck audio OB style barrel, I can manage that, with a Rel t-Zero (Janos would kill me) but its QTS is 4.4 and the rel has a way of linking to the el84 speaker posts. Elekit phono, if budget allows some of the bit upgrades hifi collective uk offer - I’m ok soldering at that level. Cheers Mark.
All speaker types have wonderful advantages and crippling disadvantages. The method of execution and synergy with the system defines the end result. Ribbons can be beautiful, thank you for sharing! :)
so do you think tractrix horn (the rp line) is actually horn? i own the rp600m ii, feel like everything got zoomed in, the positioning of instruments is not as precise and imaging is less sculpted (however the singer/imaging is big), but the midrange sounds full and warm and you feel like you are in the venue/concert
@@realworldaudio so you considered them as horn, but I heard they aren't really horn but waveguides, plus the sensitivity is not anechoic but in room which is not industry standard for measuring
@@MasterofPlay7 Their tweeter is horn loaded, but woofer not. About the wave guide nomenclature: horn vs waveguide is the same issue as pentode vs beam tetrode. Beam tetrodes are pentodes, but because in the US they could not get around European patents, they came up with a new name for the five element vacuum tube. (Which, by definition is the pentode.) Same thing happening with wave guides. Confusing semantics, yet same physics. (All waveguides are horns! The RP600 "waveguide" is adding about 10dB horn loading to the tweeter.) I have a series on horns, made about 2-3 years ago. What is it that a horn does, and that horn can be any length from 1mm to tens of meters. Even more, there are negative horns, which do not amplify but result in loss. The physics always applies, whether we apply patents on it or not, whether someone sticks a label on it or not, calls it horn, waveguide, acoustic amplifier, transducer support, reflector, baffle adjustment, and the long list of inventive names for the shared acoustic phenomena goes on.
@@realworldaudio thank you for the input, so in regards to sensitivity, do you think klipsch is misleading the consumers since they do not measured in a anechoic chamber?
Because they are sonically idiosyncratic, like Klipsch. GR research said their absolute timing is bad due to the voice coil distance from the mouth of the horn.
Indeed, they are not time aligned. However, most speakers are not.... :) Klipsch is not alone, by far. Nowdays more and more speakers are, but as of 2010 only a teensy number of loudspeakers were time aligned in the market of thousands of speakers. :) Sadly, Danny mentioned that it's a problem with horns. Not at all. In fact, there might be more time aligned horns out there than non-horns. One can time align horns just as electrodynamic drivers or any other tech... in this case (Klipsch) a practical cabinet was of a higher consideration that time alignment, which is a complete non-event for 99.9% of Klispch's competitors.... ; So why compete with the white crows by creating speakers that cannot sell because the midrange horn protrudes AF from the cabinet... no conservative person in his/her right mind would place a box with a big protruding horn in the middle in his room...
My friend u or Gr research 😮 wont be able to pass a blind test when it comes to voice coil distance , it will have to really far away more than a Meter before you could tell
@@IDontExist14 You can measure with on an impulse test tone, and most people listen more than a metre away, so it will be an issue. It rearranges the imaging because of that idiosyncrasy, if sonic party tricks are your thing that's fine with me.
@@johnshaw359 my dear friend I meant the coil distances can be 1m apart and you then might be able to make out , and this is blind listening test and will be done at 2,3M , impulse I have only used in crossover design and acoustics what exactly will you achieve with that
I'm sure that is simply not correct. One likely will not be able to Tell if something is not aligned , but the difference is there. And can be observed . Many Times the stereo phantom image will not be present due only for this reason.
Still love your channel after all these years!
Your a blessing to the world mate!
🎉
I appreciate that! Thanks Dan!!! ; )
Same hear sharing of tons of knowledge and experience
I grew up with amplified music, though my grandfather was an amateur violin player. The JBL PA sound of the 70's and early 80's is what got me interested in audio (that and the mono tube amp plus 8" AlNiCo driver my same grandpa gave me when I was 10). Those JBL PAs where all horns, even the bass cabinets where front loaded horns made from plywood. Back then I was always amazed about the difference in sound quality between the life band and the taped music they played before and during the breaks. Fast forward, a week ago, I was at an open air concert. First of all, what a progress we have made with lighting technology. And how we have regressed with the PA systems. Now you have on each side of the stage an array of speakers, small enough to fit two of them in a living room. I guess the bass drivers are 12" but you can not see it because the enclosure is looks like a smallish plastic mono-block (or blob, rather). Amazing the amount of bass it makes and amazing the amount of sound pressure it makes. But here is the kicker, life music does not sound life any more. And in fact, the tonality hardly changed when the digital music files during the break where played. We where standing at the left side of the stage. But still within the stage boundaries if you looked squarely on to it. The band was there, playing. And their movements where corresponding with the music. But where we where standing, the sound came almost only from the left column of speakers. There was literally no sound stage. I think I was one of the minority who even noticed that.
Hugo, I have a similar impression with modern PA systems. I feel like a punch-bag, the bass insulting my body, and the highs ravaging my ear canals. It's like the art is gone, beauty missing, replaced by beating us to submission by a bully who is all muscle and no grace, no brains, no soul.
@@realworldaudio We (in our group of friends) used to say that a Peavey speaker sounds like a big transistor radio. Today PA speakers sound like big Bluetooth speakers. There was a reason why JBL back then used Horns for everything. I think horns are the way to go for open air and very large rooms. The smaller the room the more compelling the (also non sonic) drawbacks become.
@@hugobloemers4425 I.e. lots of watts and compression in modern PA amplifiers, so that there's very little dynamic range and everything literally sounds the same? The antithesis of a traditional horn loaded system.
LMAO 🤣 I think it's time for another "Live" session, Janos. There's so much to talk about.
I also agree with the observation you make around the 15-minute mark. I considered my old horn speakers pretty good when it came to their overall presentation and fidelity but once I upgraded to my current speakers, I realized that the idea I had of what a pair of "critical" and "revealing" speakers were had to be thrown out the door. The level of detail in the new speakers where several orders of magnitude better than my old ones. This is both a blessing and a curse I think. It's a blessing because you can truly appreciate the full depth of the music to a greater extent, but a curse because a poorly matched amplifier, low-quality cartridge or poorly recorded music will much more apparent than before.
Haha, Janos! LOL….It really does look like you’re sitting with Paul. (Screenshot! 😂)
I personally love horns. I’ve added to my list of projects, refurbishing and upgrading the crossovers in a pair of 1986 Klipsch Forte l’s I got from my neighbor. They’re not, “shouty”, especially if they’re set up correctly. Even as is, they already sound really nice, but I only tow them in a tiny bit. They’re lively and dynamic, but also good with quiet passages, and that’s not lost at lower volumes too.
I think tunnel vision mentality is lurking out there to ensnare lots of audiophiles. There's an idea / ideal that only a very narrow range of sound interpretation can be considered high quality: the super narrow road to reproduce the most audiophile recordings to their highest glory. everything else is abysmal or sub-standard and deserves no attention from a music lover...
That mentality /approach brings with it the sad fact that one's music library shrinks to almost nothing - only audiophile recordings fit, and none of "real world" music qualifies, and for real world music (aka 99% of all music ever produced / recorded) sounds GOOD / KICK ARSE with a real world loudspeaker.... one that's not hyper-ioptimized to a singular goal (like imaging and ultra-rez). Sure, in these areas it is not hyper-specialized, but on other areas (like dynamics) it retains what these real world recordings demand. ; ) Cheers for your kits Nick!!!!!
@@realworldaudio 100% Janos. There’s a ton of great music out there that’s not considered, “audiophile”, which unfortunately leaves some looking for ‘perfection’ in music, which is just not going to happen. I own plenty of records from MoFi, Analog Productions”, MOV (music on vinyl), etc., but most of my musical library is original pressings. I kind of assume it wouldn’t be listenable to certain people. I grew up as a skater kid, reading Thrasher Magazine where I found a lot of music there and in skate videos. I was listening to mostly punk rock, ska, reggae, and good ol’ rock n roll. I didn’t start listening to jazz or classical / orchestral music until years later.
That being said, I think I usually approach music from a musician’s point of view first and foremost, which means I’m not first listening for high fidelity or other well recorded music, but instead what’s going on musically. I listen for instrumentation, chords used, how good the players are, song structure, tonality, etc. You can of course also notice if it’s well recorded, but I’m not thinking about that first.
I think ya pretty much nailed it in your comment, but I could go on and on about this subject. Thank you, Janos, and Cheers to your lions, Kintaro and Machi! 🦁🎶💜🦁🎶💜😊
Also…., Why does it seem most musicians are not audiophiles? I think they’re / we are more interested in getting better at their instrument or working on tone, I certainly appreciate good sound quality and go out of my way to make it happen, but the overall musicality does come first.
Joseph Crowe is a commercial horn speaker manufacturer. The prices start in the USD 5000/speaker-area and I'm sure he doesn't sell many (beautiful speakers though, great craftsmanship). Luckily he also offers plans for DIYers. I built one of them and can attest to their quality.
Another commercial manufacturer is "A for Ara" with smaller horns and big Multi-Entry horns and their prices can go even higher.
So it's not for everybody and big and expensive. I'm not sure this has to do with being an experienced audiophile.
I've heard many good things about Joseph Crowe speakers. I have not heard of A for Ara yet, thanks! Joseph is a very very experienced audiophile, I'm quite sure he has deeper knowledge and experience base than most commercial speaker designers.
Fun Challenge. Room 12.5’ x 12.5’ but dedicated, almost anything goes. Hearing tops about 15k, hearing skill about 2+/10, put this way, you think u can hear a “good” Paganini cover. Simple tastes, deity, trad, world, pop “mum, I hurt me finger” style, folk, simple classical - solo 2 sextet ish. Nice music. €1,500 / $1,630 budget. What would you do Monday club?
Sorry, cheeky way of a new person asking for free advice from masters, worst that can happen is no response. I’ve managed to get a Linn Axis second hand 275, thinking of an AT54o-ML or 74o-ML to replace the ortifon red. Oldchen EL-84 is €159. possibly the same on shipping, TB W8-2145 in a Caintuck audio OB style barrel, I can manage that, with a Rel t-Zero (Janos would kill me) but its QTS is 4.4 and the rel has a way of linking to the el84 speaker posts. Elekit phono, if budget allows some of the bit upgrades hifi collective uk offer - I’m ok soldering at that level. Cheers Mark.
60" true ribbon tweeter 😊
All speaker types have wonderful advantages and crippling disadvantages. The method of execution and synergy with the system defines the end result.
Ribbons can be beautiful, thank you for sharing! :)
so do you think tractrix horn (the rp line) is actually horn? i own the rp600m ii, feel like everything got zoomed in, the positioning of instruments is not as precise and imaging is less sculpted (however the singer/imaging is big), but the midrange sounds full and warm and you feel like you are in the venue/concert
Here's the video that I made on the RP600: ruclips.net/video/N3r0p6a_4Jo/видео.htmlsi=rQTLDFBFi1bRh_GD
@@realworldaudio so you considered them as horn, but I heard they aren't really horn but waveguides, plus the sensitivity is not anechoic but in room which is not industry standard for measuring
@@MasterofPlay7 Their tweeter is horn loaded, but woofer not. About the wave guide nomenclature: horn vs waveguide is the same issue as pentode vs beam tetrode. Beam tetrodes are pentodes, but because in the US they could not get around European patents, they came up with a new name for the five element vacuum tube. (Which, by definition is the pentode.) Same thing happening with wave guides. Confusing semantics, yet same physics. (All waveguides are horns! The RP600 "waveguide" is adding about 10dB horn loading to the tweeter.) I have a series on horns, made about 2-3 years ago. What is it that a horn does, and that horn can be any length from 1mm to tens of meters. Even more, there are negative horns, which do not amplify but result in loss. The physics always applies, whether we apply patents on it or not, whether someone sticks a label on it or not, calls it horn, waveguide, acoustic amplifier, transducer support, reflector, baffle adjustment, and the long list of inventive names for the shared acoustic phenomena goes on.
@@realworldaudio thank you for the input, so in regards to sensitivity, do you think klipsch is misleading the consumers since they do not measured in a anechoic chamber?
@@realworldaudio I feel like horn that everything is kinda zoomed in/magnified, the positioning of instruments is not as clear as typical speakers
Wild dude..lol
Because they are sonically idiosyncratic, like Klipsch. GR research said their absolute timing is bad due to the voice coil distance from the mouth of the horn.
Indeed, they are not time aligned. However, most speakers are not.... :) Klipsch is not alone, by far. Nowdays more and more speakers are, but as of 2010 only a teensy number of loudspeakers were time aligned in the market of thousands of speakers. :)
Sadly, Danny mentioned that it's a problem with horns. Not at all. In fact, there might be more time aligned horns out there than non-horns.
One can time align horns just as electrodynamic drivers or any other tech... in this case (Klipsch) a practical cabinet was of a higher consideration that time alignment, which is a complete non-event for 99.9% of Klispch's competitors.... ; So why compete with the white crows by creating speakers that cannot sell because the midrange horn protrudes AF from the cabinet... no conservative person in his/her right mind would place a box with a big protruding horn in the middle in his room...
My friend u or Gr research 😮 wont be able to pass a blind test when it comes to voice coil distance , it will have to really far away more than a Meter before you could tell
@@IDontExist14 You can measure with on an impulse test tone, and most people listen more than a metre away, so it will be an issue. It rearranges the imaging because of that idiosyncrasy, if sonic party tricks are your thing that's fine with me.
@@johnshaw359 my dear friend I meant the coil distances can be 1m apart and you then might be able to make out , and this is blind listening test and will be done at 2,3M , impulse I have only used in crossover design and acoustics what exactly will you achieve with that
I'm sure that is simply not correct. One likely will not be able to Tell if something is not aligned , but the difference is there. And can be observed . Many Times the stereo phantom image will not be present due only for this reason.
B.I.C. VENTURI Formula 6
Janoooššš even at x1.25... would you buy me a coffee for such a chat?? :))
Nice deep fake! 😁
Even AI could not do better! ; ) :)
@@realworldaudio 🤣