O'Sensei never gave his uke back his balance. As Pranin sensei demonstrated in his first solution to the problem he stayed low and did the wrist lock low and with uke still stretched out so he would not be able to prevent the throw.
I hope that I can explain this clearly but...The way that I was taught basic munetski kotegeashi from day 1 back in 1991 was to allow the nake's fist to pass as you lead (no grabbing at all) it is more like a cupped drag down the arm as you start to turn and take nage's body forward and downward, simultaneously you are turning tenkan This should be practiced high and low since it's more likely that someone would punch you in the face before the standard abdomen punch generally taught. Realistically you would probably miss a grab most of the time, especially if they retract their fist, or stop their movement. But if you focus on movement, you will avoid a direct punch.and would be in a position for a fallback technique such as kokyunage. The same concept applies if you are grabbed at the wrist...lead without thinking about any grabs, you just train your mind to move your body off the line immediately (which is the main goal anyway) and turning while remaining stable, otherwise most people get so focused on the "grab" that they stop the flow of movement, lose their own balance, and have no control of their own body, and this allows nake time to regain their balance. Also, lets say you do catch the hand, you can keep turning tenkan you don't have to switch directions so quickly, you are now in control, keep turning. This added back to back motion spins them out of control with a lot of momentum, and then quickly apply the kotegaeshi (below the belt line) not giving them any time to regain their balance. This works. The point is to not get hit,. I believe that people focus too much on the techniques, forgetting that those techniques are not set in stone, they were designed to illustrate a principle. The technique can fail, but the principle doesn't. When you train with this mindset you will progress a lot faster overall and become a lot better in your applications.
this definitely points out the flaw in many kotegaishi forms showing where the opening is in ukes turn. being of daito ryu i cant condone the lack of aiki in the solution but i appreciate the point made. i think if more aikidokas were honest to themselves about these openings they would tighten their technique.
Depending on the school, kote-gashi is taught many different ways and you see many different styles demonstrated on youtube, but main fundamental basic that needs to be focused on in general is that the main lead into kotegashi should be brought low to unbalance the attacker and the technique should be applied turning toward the attackers rear flank close to the shoulder. The example Stan shows at the beginning is a valid problem because he has stepped away from the uke with the outside foot creating space, when what should happen from the initial position is that the outside foot should stay where it is and the inside (closest) foot should rotate back to the uke’s rear. Some styles do this with a big initial lead (Check out Tissier) or a small one (Seagal) but in either case they stay behind the attacker with both the lead and the technique.
When Stanley "exposes" the problem with the common form of kotegaeshi, he stops the technique to point out that uke has come around to face him in a fairly upright position. But, obviously, the technique doesn't normally stop at the point at which Stanley stops it. Done correctly, the technique moves without pause into the wrist torque of kotegaeshi which, if applied well, completely and immediately corrupts uke's structure (which should already be compromised by kuzushi). If uke is trying to get a punch or kick off at this point, or even a grab, the wrist torque well-applied is going to make this structurally very difficult and very painful! I've had people try to counter my kotegaeshi technique at the point where Stanley says it is vulnerable and the results have been very unpleasant for uke. Also, the elbow atemi and strike to the face are fairly common backups to kotegaeshi that I have been aware of for many years. I really appreciate that Stanley is wanting to make Aikido better but in this case I am not persuaded that the problem is as serious as Stanley makes it out to be or that his solution is a big improvement.
Jon Hay Quite so. I think Pranin falls into the typical trap of Aikido analysts to imagine all sorts of theoretical scenarios, while in reality with a resisting opponent everything would look very different (e.g. no fancy ukemis, but lots of damaged joints).
+Jon Hay - Sorry, but I train with a couple of lanky fellas, and no matter how fast you apply the technique, if you bring them round to face you you WILL get a punch in the ear.
30110CKs Well, this may be your experience but it does not follow that what you experience everyone else must also experience. I doubt we do kotegaeshi exactly the same way, so our experience of the effectiveness of the technique will differ.
+Jon Hay - I train in Iwama Ryu. Well I've crossed trained with guys from Aikikai, Yoshinkan, karate, kung fu, judo, happkido, escrima, boxing and probably others I've forgotten about over 15 odd years, and I've never been given cause to think different. Stan is spot on. But whatever....complacency is a weakness in itself.
Jon Hay I would definitely agree with you on this. When your higher grade belt any struggle or counter from Uke on this technique Will only cause extreme pain or possible Injury!
Dear Stanley I think the biggest mistake is not paying attention to the way O´Sensei did it. Check the clip you included before your analysis. O´Sensei does not allow Uke to counter: he moves in such a way as to prevent this. He doesn´t seem to need ANY atemi or strategy at all. Aikido is intended to unite your energy with that of your partner and not to fight against him/her. Correct work leads to growth and human development according to Kurita (Yutaka) Shihan.
The point is, it doesn't matter if you are in front or behind - if you are behind without taking uke's balance, he's just going to turn around and get you. And if you are in front and take his balance, you are safe.
Kotegaishi translates as wrist out turn, not wrist rip off. Therein lies a major problem. Many think it is a way to cause extreme pain, control, compliance, and sometimes injury, rather than showing great control without causing harm or injury to your attacker. Correct positioning and posture by nage, ensures correct and proper technique. Many become "lazy" in their execution of correct and proper movement and positioning, especially with compliant ukes within a sterile dojo environment. Thank you Stanley.
the point of kote gaeshi is to unbalance the opponent then quickly turn around to throw him, if you execute the technique with the right timing, speed and power, the uke won't even have a chance to regain his balance, let alone counter attack, I'm a Yoseikan practitioner and I almost never see this problem in my dojo
I agree that this is a common problem and the solution lies in projecting uke forward as in tai no henko as opposed to simply pulling him round onto you. It also helps to go cheek to cheek (Butt) and keeping the hand low. Withdrawing the leg to make a space means that though uke is coming round, tori stays ahead of him. The issue is largely one of timing. Another common error is attempting to grab the moving wrist from tsuki instead of projecting uke forward with the deflection and having the hand fall onto the wrist of the unbalanced uke. Another solution , traditional weapons form, is to cut the hand down from the side, this totally puts uke off balance, takes him low and allows the easy application of kote gaeshi.
This issue has bothered me for years; I've finally noticed something recently though (shame these realizations always come "recently", "after years")... thinking from Ledyard Sensei's article from a while back (full article here www.aikiweb.com/columns/gledyard/2006_09.html)... "Many Aikido practitioners look at joint locks as a form of attack to one of the body's weak points. The attacker submits due to pain and to avoid injury. But this is a misunderstanding. It is quite possible to get strong enough to make it impossible to injure some of the joints. Many people have an extreme pain tolerance and techniques that depend on success do not work on them. Finally, even if one can succeed in injuring a joint or causing substantial pain, in a real martial confrontation a committed attacker may choose to sacrifice that joint in order to complete his attack with another weapon or part of his body. Joint locks must catch the whole body, not just attack a joint." As it relates to the kote gaeshi issue raised by Pranin Sensei, it feels/looks as though Nage creates his/her own problem, by projecting the energy out and down, Uke naturally rolls on his/her center vertical (spinal) axis, bringing their far arm back into play. If instead Nage runs the "ikkyo curve" the opposite way, Uke's shoulder does not come around and his/her far arm remains neutralized. At least this is a start of a guess as to what's going on here: Saito Sensei - ruclips.net/video/B7hQtDZb2ko/видео.htmlm51s (I know, they're going slow for demonstration purposes, but still telling that Uke's shoulders don't rotate AT ALL around a center vertical axis). Saotome Sensei - ruclips.net/video/BT7RutGG5dY/видео.htmlm45s I really like this example as he makes the problem, the risk, so concrete - with a knife possibly in that far hand, either due to a hand switch or concealed from start, from a Budo perspective I don't feel great about relying on atemi to distract them from slicing my neck (you'll notice that in Pranin Sensei's atemi solutions, Uke's far hand still slaps Nage's shoulder/arm on the way down, suggesting that even with strong atemi, Nage may inadvertently slice his own neck with Uke's knife in Uke's hand...). Finally, O Sensei's example at the start of this video - again, Uke's shoulders don't rotate one bit... of course, you don't get the pretty high break fall out of this version, but, appropriately, c'est la guerre...
It's a bit hard to demonstrate points regarding balance when doing it slowly because the uke has a better chance to regain their balance. For me there are two ways to prevent it, either an atemi as turn back towards uke or my preference is to go deeper round, with elbow to back then uke has to move quicker to try to regain posture and thus has no time to react to technique.
All are true.Pranin is pointing out fair analysis,many people do it their own way which is correct, the idea is to feel the opponents energy,then you can blend and terminate the situation or do so no sen,,,,if you apply kotegaeshi in a confine small room,now that would be difficult,otherwise just do atemi first..nor do aikido is not about doing this or that...it's just happen in a "moment"... my humble thought..
I can see where you are coming from with this technique kotegaeshi a wrist throw. as uke attacks i wouldn't use big kotegaeshi but small keeping him in your centre kuzushi break his balance take him off his weakline then apply it..... that's why uke won't get a chance to counter attack.... which will put you at a very good advantage ?
Not an Akido guy by any means, but a lot of what he says seems to make sense to me. What's shown is a hard variant of a 2 on 1. If Akido evolved from sword arts I would think as a general rule that upon finding yourself disarmed you want to get out of the way of the weapon, that is, outside his power (the sword). A boxer does the same, uses footwork to get to the side, this simultaneously allows for defense and attack. Even if we assume both men have no weapons attacking and defending from the side is always advantageous. For example, applying this technique straight on (assuming both combatants are initially unarmed), opens the fella applying the technique to the ol', "Let me reach into my pocket and get my knife and stab you in the side technique." As Pranin shows it, the enemy would have to reach across his own body with the knife, hard to do when he has pressure on the arm.
Okay, the answer is quite obvious, when you think about it. To stop the opponent rotation, you push his elbow towards/infront of him when you take the Kote-Gaeshi, that way he wont be able reach you with the opposite side. You fulfill the technique "helping him/her down" with the Kote-Gaeshi and then take a Shintai away from him/her to make room for the fall and take a look. Perhaps not Aikido ...
That’s because you did it as demo in slow motion so uke’s counterattack is likely. But in real situations if you should lead him instantaneously he shouldn’t even have the opportunity to counter you unless you failed to lead him proper.
I wish I could have shared ideas with Mr. Pranin before he passed. There are at least ten errors here but am sure he was aware of them. I would not presume to dictate Sensei's art to him. That said: 1. I wouldnt let anyone just grab my arm and would immediately counter. 2. I would not give back ukes balance. Aikido should be done with immobilization if uke countering as first priority and finishing the technique as optional. Incomplete techniques are an option. 3. Really from this position shihonage would be safer and would prevent uke from spinning out. This is the most glaring issue for me. 4. Techniques often fail because of entering incorrectly. Stanley seems to emphasize what to do when a technique fails as a remedy but but does not stress why the technique failed as I do. 5. He is practicing a combative form of aikido. The elbow compromises the waza... you are sacrificing one waza for another which is not good... however an elbow may be possible. 6. If the elbow is possible it might be because you are high up on ukes arm. I would have to re-examine the video but something like kotegaishi variations. 7. Lastly the punch has more range than the elbow and has better reliability as it allows you to finish the technique as you intended. Stanley is slower and older so would use a stiff punch. Therefore that ounch has to be hard and count. I am younger and quicker. I would use a snapping jab and quickly go back to the technique. So there you have it. Do not let someone grab your arm. If they do use ura shihonage. If they pull you forward and are shorter then you are forced to use kotegaeshi. This is a worst case scenario arising from multiple failures but good for him for training it. Personally I would start with more practical basic ideas and then work up to this.
Hello, with all respect, as you can see at this video, uke can reach your body with his free hand, even touch you all times, if uke´s intention were to hit you, he could easily hit you in the ribs, under the arm or in the head... I think I understand the mistaken position you´re tryig to fix, and in my experience the only solution I could find is prety easy, just don´t lose kokyu... keeping arms extended in kokyu extend distance create tension and avoid uke to reach you.. Everyone who perform kote gaeshi losing kokyu folding the arms to twist uke´s wrist will be reached by uke.. try it and tell me what you think.. Best Regards..
your adaption makes sense but there is a basic flaw in your reasoning for the need for doing it your way. you have assumed that everyone is going to stop in the face to face position and say "ohh,look,you can have a second chance to pummel me and I now have to react to that to continue the technique". please correct me if I'm wrong but the whole idea of the turn into his string point is to use momentum to continue HIS motion and either break/dislocate something or more than likely throw him to the ground and let the ground deal with him. the reason for you standing more upright is because your older and more decrepit and weaker but smarter and on balance and in continuous motion
very nice, I just covered this in last nights class along with a few other points about this topic, and was looking for vids to send to my students, this will be at the top, had guests, and my point was the "traditional " way can get you hit, the person will retract and move to face you, the guests were continually punched in the chest to show the flaw. unfortunately, the point was not taken well as they are not a combative school,
that is because there are poor uke. grab and follow the dance is not the job of uke. the role of uke is attack. I was taught to attack again after the first attack, that way it shows if your technique is really working. as per kotegaeshi I have noticed that I give back balance to uke in 2 different ways: 1 when I bring his hand up, that brings his balance center back down. 2 when I don't give enough space to myself. by staying to close to uke I interrupt is moving and I give him back balance.
uhm. When performed correctly this "problem"wouldn't be there. The nagashi is made too close to uke's feet. And he is not off balance, when he is off balance he can't attack. This is a key principle in aikibudo / daito. When you would have made the nagashi in a wider circle (or make tenkan) you would have pulled him on his front foot and he can't attack anymore. ALLWAY'S get uke's back foot of the ground and he can't attack. This is the problem with many aikido schools. They train the motion only and not the physics of the technique.
On my part, I think that the biggest mistake is to worship O'Sensei and to consider that his way of doing a technique is the ultimate way of doing it, that cannot never be improved on. Aikido must evolve (or die?).
Problem is that nobody does Aikido like O-Sensei, like he is seen doing it in the video. Nobody stands like O-Sensei, nobody wears shoes/socks like O-Sensei, nobody hops up and down like O-Sensei except maybe Tohei Sensei. The whole world is trying to do Aikido while ignoring the way O-Sensei actually did it! O-Sensei is facing the uke the entire time. Not even Saito Sensei does it like O-Sensei. The secret is not in going to the side but going down low and extending uke in a circular manner. Uke has no power to hit you while he's crouching downward and no power to hit you while he's suddenly standing up again.
0:02 here uke is out of balance and his right arm is extended and his torso is streched also he has inertion in such a direction which is opposite to the trajectory of the eventual attack so any kind of strike with the uke's left hand would not be succesful i think that he is not able to reach O'Sensei with his left arm also a kick is out of the equation because of thr fact that uke is leaning forward at 0:05 O'Sensei is out of the line of attack and he is controling uke's arm with kotegaeshi :)
This is a great video but I think it would have been better to demonstrate it with uke holding a training/plastic knife so people can see what the true purpose of a technique like kotegaeshi is used for, which is to disarm an attacker armed with a knife or even a gun.
Is there any footage of Ueshiba or top students training live? If you're familiar with the Judo footage of Mifune training, tell me why no similar footage from Aikido exists, not one bit in 100 years? Failing that, footage of any Aikido clowns training live on the internet at all, anywhere? Its pitiful.
Many interesting thoughts on the vidio-mine is ( and i am not a Aikido man by any means) is this-the technique should be tried in slow motion moving the way he shows- see at what point the opponents balance is taken -at that point continue the throw-either high or low as you throw him seeing if you can hit with the elbow or fist as you complete the throw--to go back a little after therelease where youcan start the throw his elbow is vulnerable to being hyperextended.....lots of things can happen in a real altercation-----"Don't be a victim"
well there is a point..if you are controlling already by ude hishigi, you don't need the kote gaeshi, whch would be a loss of time and also would put more risks, in the transition from one technique to the other... The critic on the high version could be issued also to many techniques of the author: when uke is just a dummy, whatever is good! Many concepts missing, so...!
Well Stanley It appears that you are bringing him towards you as you step back. Your bringing the arm out. Saito sensei when he does kotegaeshi steps back and returns the arm back in its natural bending positon and out. Without pulling him in. Lost semianrs 7. Also putting your arm over his subjects you to a counter throw.
i know that its an old demo, but 1- why not just as u start twisting his hand, you take a step with the back foot so now instead of having ur body facing him, it will be ur back ? or 2- you can do it normally while raising ur elbow to block any possible attacks or even better, distract his fov ?
From watching all available content presented by Sensei Stanley Pranin, it becomes clear he has 5years Aikido experience 11 times over. Western Aikido is indebted to him certainly for his encyclopaedic knowledge and historical literary works, but his actual Aikido is an embarrassment to serious Aikidoka. More is expected of an Aikidoka with his opportunity and knowledge. Read his articles, buy his books- but don't rely on his practical abilities. Beginners Beware.
Spot on.... traditionalists don't see that unfortunately, its like a fecking bible!! Its why I do Shodokan and IF his balance is taken completely and I mean completely it will work. trouble with Stans is his uke is still solid on his feet.... Mine never are.... It's called aiki kuzushi works every time..... X
***** This technique would never work to begin with even with his "improvement". Doing aikido and trying to fix its broken techniques is just a waste of time, find a martial art that works if you want techniques that can work.
outlaw123Mannyvel well I will just say to you get some aikido training. because you don't know anything about it. so you can't go around saying it doesn't work if you have never practiced it...I can say well baseball is crap but I don't know anything about it. I have never done it...so how do I know it is if you read my comment about this particular technique..... you will see it does work. how do I know well I have had this technique applied to myself.... I couldn't counter it reason for that is my wrist was controlled by smaller circle technique not big circle technique which you do see In some aikido videos looks impressive on camera it does hurt like fuck. even at half speed. since you're wrist only goes one way give you're wrist a little tweak to see what i mean ?
***** I did aikido for 3 years, I was under the same illusion everyone else is. I enjoyed my training and I hope every other Aikido practioner does but for gods sake its not a martial art, its a hobby for the elderly or people who are scared to, or just not wanting to train for realistic circumstances. BJJ, Muay thai ect. are for fighting. Aikido, iaido, daito ryu are for people looking for a hobby. And kung fu or judo are in between.
outlaw123Mannyvel lol is that what you think aikido is for elderly people or for a person who is scared to train for realistic circumstances or to be used as an hobby lol yeah alright if you seem to think it is. that's not a problem. aikido has daito ryu aiki - jujitsu - jujitsu decendents I thought you must have known this since you practiced it for only 3 years lol never mind ?
Secret: Lmao!! the seen in plain sight that nobody gets FFS? Get uke of his feet and up in the air and you have him at your mercy..... Bloody rap up you traditionalists get wise will ya!!!
O'Sensei never gave his uke back his balance. As Pranin sensei demonstrated in his first solution to the problem he stayed low and did the wrist lock low and with uke still stretched out so he would not be able to prevent the throw.
I hope that I can explain this clearly but...The way that I was taught basic munetski kotegeashi from day 1 back in 1991 was to allow the nake's fist to pass as you lead (no grabbing at all) it is more like a cupped drag down the arm as you start to turn and take nage's body forward and downward, simultaneously you are turning tenkan This should be practiced high and low since it's more likely that someone would punch you in the face before the standard abdomen punch generally taught.
Realistically you would probably miss a grab most of the time, especially if they retract their fist, or stop their movement. But if you focus on movement, you will avoid a direct punch.and would be in a position for a fallback technique such as kokyunage. The same concept applies if you are grabbed at the wrist...lead without thinking about any grabs, you just train your mind to move your body off the line immediately (which is the main goal anyway) and turning while remaining stable, otherwise most people get so focused on the "grab" that they stop the flow of movement, lose their own balance, and have no control of their own body, and this allows nake time to regain their balance. Also, lets say you do catch the hand, you can keep turning tenkan you don't have to switch directions so quickly, you are now in control, keep turning. This added back to back motion spins them out of control with a lot of momentum, and then quickly apply the kotegaeshi (below the belt line) not giving them any time to regain their balance. This works. The point is to not get hit,. I believe that people focus too much on the techniques, forgetting that those techniques are not set in stone, they were designed to illustrate a principle. The technique can fail, but the principle doesn't. When you train with this mindset you will progress a lot faster overall and become a lot better in your applications.
this definitely points out the flaw in many kotegaishi forms showing where the opening is in ukes turn. being of daito ryu i cant condone the lack of aiki in the solution but i appreciate the point made. i think if more aikidokas were honest to themselves about these openings they would tighten their technique.
Thank you pointing out most common mistake I saw all these years of teaching Aikido.
Depending on the school, kote-gashi is taught many different ways and you see many different styles demonstrated on youtube, but main fundamental basic that needs to be focused on in general is that the main lead into kotegashi should be brought low to unbalance the attacker and the technique should be applied turning toward the attackers rear flank close to the shoulder. The example Stan shows at the beginning is a valid problem because he has stepped away from the uke with the outside foot creating space, when what should happen from the initial position is that the outside foot should stay where it is and the inside (closest) foot should rotate back to the uke’s rear. Some styles do this with a big initial lead (Check out Tissier) or a small one (Seagal) but in either case they stay behind the attacker with both the lead and the technique.
When Stanley "exposes" the problem with the common form of kotegaeshi, he stops the technique to point out that uke has come around to face him in a fairly upright position. But, obviously, the technique doesn't normally stop at the point at which Stanley stops it. Done correctly, the technique moves without pause into the wrist torque of kotegaeshi which, if applied well, completely and immediately corrupts uke's structure (which should already be compromised by kuzushi). If uke is trying to get a punch or kick off at this point, or even a grab, the wrist torque well-applied is going to make this structurally very difficult and very painful! I've had people try to counter my kotegaeshi technique at the point where Stanley says it is vulnerable and the results have been very unpleasant for uke. Also, the elbow atemi and strike to the face are fairly common backups to kotegaeshi that I have been aware of for many years. I really appreciate that Stanley is wanting to make Aikido better but in this case I am not persuaded that the problem is as serious as Stanley makes it out to be or that his solution is a big improvement.
Jon Hay
Quite so. I think Pranin falls into the typical trap of Aikido analysts to imagine all sorts of theoretical scenarios, while in reality with a resisting opponent everything would look very different (e.g. no fancy ukemis, but lots of damaged joints).
+Jon Hay - Sorry, but I train with a couple of lanky fellas, and no matter how fast you apply the technique, if you bring them round to face you you WILL get a punch in the ear.
30110CKs Well, this may be your experience but it does not follow that what you experience everyone else must also experience. I doubt we do kotegaeshi exactly the same way, so our experience of the effectiveness of the technique will differ.
+Jon Hay - I train in Iwama Ryu. Well I've crossed trained with guys from Aikikai, Yoshinkan, karate, kung fu, judo, happkido, escrima, boxing and probably others I've forgotten about over 15 odd years, and I've never been given cause to think different. Stan is spot on.
But whatever....complacency is a weakness in itself.
Jon Hay I would definitely agree with you on this. When your higher grade belt any struggle or counter from Uke on this technique
Will only cause extreme pain or possible Injury!
Dear Stanley
I think the biggest mistake is not paying attention to the way O´Sensei did it. Check the clip you included before your analysis. O´Sensei does not allow Uke to counter: he moves in such a way as to prevent this. He doesn´t seem to need ANY atemi or strategy at all. Aikido is intended to unite your energy with that of your partner and not to fight against him/her. Correct work leads to growth and human development according to Kurita (Yutaka) Shihan.
The point is, it doesn't matter if you are in front or behind - if you are behind without taking uke's balance, he's just going to turn around and get you. And if you are in front and take his balance, you are safe.
Kotegaishi translates as wrist out turn, not wrist rip off. Therein lies a major problem. Many think it is a way to cause extreme pain, control, compliance, and sometimes injury, rather than showing great control without causing harm or injury to your attacker. Correct positioning and posture by nage, ensures correct and proper technique. Many become "lazy" in their execution of correct and proper movement and positioning, especially with compliant ukes within a sterile dojo environment.
Thank you Stanley.
the point of kote gaeshi is to unbalance the opponent then quickly turn around to throw him, if you execute the technique with the right timing, speed and power, the uke won't even have a chance to regain his balance, let alone counter attack, I'm a Yoseikan practitioner and I almost never see this problem in my dojo
aikido students do not worship O'sensei, just so you know.
I agree that this is a common problem and the solution lies in projecting uke forward as in tai no henko as opposed to simply pulling him round onto you. It also helps to go cheek to cheek (Butt) and keeping the hand low. Withdrawing the leg to make a space means that though uke is coming round, tori stays ahead of him. The issue is largely one of timing. Another common error is attempting to grab the moving wrist from tsuki instead of projecting uke forward with the deflection and having the hand fall onto the wrist of the unbalanced uke. Another solution , traditional weapons form, is to cut the hand down from the side, this totally puts uke off balance, takes him low and allows the easy application of kote gaeshi.
Your video begins with OSensei executing kotegaeshi. He is clearly standing directly in front of his uke. Comment?
This issue has bothered me for years; I've finally noticed something recently though (shame these realizations always come "recently", "after years")... thinking from Ledyard Sensei's article from a while back (full article here www.aikiweb.com/columns/gledyard/2006_09.html)...
"Many Aikido practitioners look at joint locks as a form of attack to one of the body's weak points. The attacker submits due to pain and to avoid injury. But this is a misunderstanding. It is quite possible to get strong enough to make it impossible to injure some of the joints. Many people have an extreme pain tolerance and techniques that depend on success do not work on them. Finally, even if one can succeed in injuring a joint or causing substantial pain, in a real martial confrontation a committed attacker may choose to sacrifice that joint in order to complete his attack with another weapon or part of his body. Joint locks must catch the whole body, not just attack a joint."
As it relates to the kote gaeshi issue raised by Pranin Sensei, it feels/looks as though Nage creates his/her own problem, by projecting the energy out and down, Uke naturally rolls on his/her center vertical (spinal) axis, bringing their far arm back into play. If instead Nage runs the "ikkyo curve" the opposite way, Uke's shoulder does not come around and his/her far arm remains neutralized. At least this is a start of a guess as to what's going on here:
Saito Sensei - ruclips.net/video/B7hQtDZb2ko/видео.htmlm51s (I know, they're going slow for demonstration purposes, but still telling that Uke's shoulders don't rotate AT ALL around a center vertical axis).
Saotome Sensei - ruclips.net/video/BT7RutGG5dY/видео.htmlm45s I really like this example as he makes the problem, the risk, so concrete - with a knife possibly in that far hand, either due to a hand switch or concealed from start, from a Budo perspective I don't feel great about relying on atemi to distract them from slicing my neck (you'll notice that in Pranin Sensei's atemi solutions, Uke's far hand still slaps Nage's shoulder/arm on the way down, suggesting that even with strong atemi, Nage may inadvertently slice his own neck with Uke's knife in Uke's hand...).
Finally, O Sensei's example at the start of this video - again, Uke's shoulders don't rotate one bit... of course, you don't get the pretty high break fall out of this version, but, appropriately, c'est la guerre...
It's a bit hard to demonstrate points regarding balance when doing it slowly because the uke has a better chance to regain their balance. For me there are two ways to prevent it, either an atemi as turn back towards uke or my preference is to go deeper round, with elbow to back then uke has to move quicker to try to regain posture and thus has no time to react to technique.
All are true.Pranin is pointing out fair analysis,many people do it their own way which is correct, the idea is to feel the opponents energy,then you can blend and terminate the situation or do so no sen,,,,if you apply kotegaeshi in a confine small room,now that would be difficult,otherwise just do atemi first..nor do aikido is not about doing this or that...it's just happen in a "moment"... my humble thought..
Nice tip thanks
Thank you.
Don't know what you mean, but: God Bless you and train safe.
Thank you so much
anything can be countered, anything can work. train safely.
I can see where you are coming from with this technique kotegaeshi a wrist throw.
as uke attacks i wouldn't use big kotegaeshi but small keeping him in your centre kuzushi break his balance take him off his weakline then apply it..... that's why uke won't get a chance to counter attack.... which will put you at a very good advantage ?
Not an Akido guy by any means, but a lot of what he says seems to make sense to me. What's shown is a hard variant of a 2 on 1. If Akido evolved from sword arts I would think as a general rule that upon finding yourself disarmed you want to get out of the way of the weapon, that is, outside his power (the sword). A boxer does the same, uses footwork to get to the side, this simultaneously allows for defense and attack. Even if we assume both men have no weapons attacking and defending from the side is always advantageous. For example, applying this technique straight on (assuming both combatants are initially unarmed), opens the fella applying the technique to the ol', "Let me reach into my pocket and get my knife and stab you in the side technique." As Pranin shows it, the enemy would have to reach across his own body with the knife, hard to do when he has pressure on the arm.
It would be incredibly nice if this guy would credit the dojo he steals his techniques from.
I like the elbow atemi, thanks.
Okay, the answer is quite obvious, when you think about it. To stop the opponent rotation, you push his elbow towards/infront of him when you take the Kote-Gaeshi, that way he wont be able reach you with the opposite side. You fulfill the technique "helping him/her down" with the Kote-Gaeshi and then take a Shintai away from him/her to make room for the fall and take a look. Perhaps not Aikido ...
staying low and not coming up thereby standing your uke up is a good idea
thanks much for that nice analysis. it's practical. and it's needed.
Thank you sensei, oss
That’s because you did it as demo in slow motion so uke’s counterattack is likely. But in real situations if you should lead him instantaneously he shouldn’t even have the opportunity to counter you unless you failed to lead him proper.
I wish I could have shared ideas with Mr. Pranin before he passed.
There are at least ten errors here but am sure he was aware of them. I would not presume to dictate Sensei's art to him.
That said:
1. I wouldnt let anyone just grab my arm and would immediately counter.
2. I would not give back ukes balance. Aikido should be done with immobilization if uke countering as first priority and finishing the technique as optional. Incomplete techniques are an option.
3. Really from this position shihonage would be safer and would prevent uke from spinning out. This is the most glaring issue for me.
4. Techniques often fail because of entering incorrectly. Stanley seems to emphasize what to do when a technique fails as a remedy but but does not stress why the technique failed as I do.
5. He is practicing a combative form of aikido. The elbow compromises the waza... you are sacrificing one waza for another which is not good... however an elbow may be possible.
6. If the elbow is possible it might be because you are high up on ukes arm. I would have to re-examine the video but something like kotegaishi variations.
7. Lastly the punch has more range than the elbow and has better reliability as it allows you to finish the technique as you intended. Stanley is slower and older so would use a stiff punch. Therefore that ounch has to be hard and count. I am younger and quicker. I would use a snapping jab and quickly go back to the technique.
So there you have it. Do not let someone grab your arm. If they do use ura shihonage. If they pull you forward and are shorter then you are forced to use kotegaeshi. This is a worst case scenario arising from multiple failures but good for him for training it. Personally I would start with more practical basic ideas and then work up to this.
The greatest mistake is western analytical minds analysing oriental martial arts.
Hello, with all respect, as you can see at this video, uke can reach your body with his free hand, even touch you all times, if uke´s intention were to hit you, he could easily hit you in the ribs, under the arm or in the head... I think I understand the mistaken position you´re tryig to fix, and in my experience the only solution I could find is prety easy, just don´t lose kokyu... keeping arms extended in kokyu extend distance create tension and avoid uke to reach you.. Everyone who perform kote gaeshi losing kokyu folding the arms to twist uke´s wrist will be reached by uke.. try it and tell me what you think.. Best Regards..
My son DJ ,likes to keep very low and tight to the flank but has used the elbow atemi with great effect on me his Father !
Good tips!
your adaption makes sense but there is a basic flaw in your reasoning for the need for doing it your way.
you have assumed that everyone is going to stop in the face to face position and say "ohh,look,you can have a second chance to pummel me and I now have to react to that to continue the technique".
please correct me if I'm wrong but the whole idea of the turn into his string point is to use momentum to continue HIS motion and either break/dislocate something or more than likely throw him to the ground and let the ground deal with him.
the reason for you standing more upright is because your older and more decrepit and weaker but smarter and on balance and in continuous motion
very nice, I just covered this in last nights class along with a few other points about this topic, and was looking for vids to send to my students, this will be at the top, had guests, and my point was the "traditional " way can get you hit, the person will retract and move to face you, the guests were continually punched in the chest to show the flaw. unfortunately, the point was not taken well as they are not a combative school,
that is because there are poor uke. grab and follow the dance is not the job of uke. the role of uke is attack. I was taught to attack again after the first attack, that way it shows if your technique is really working.
as per kotegaeshi I have noticed that I give back balance to uke in 2 different ways: 1 when I bring his hand up, that brings his balance center back down. 2 when I don't give enough space to myself. by staying to close to uke I interrupt is moving and I give him back balance.
uhm. When performed correctly this "problem"wouldn't be there. The nagashi is made too close to uke's feet. And he is not off balance, when he is off balance he can't attack. This is a key principle in aikibudo / daito. When you would have made the nagashi in a wider circle (or make tenkan) you would have pulled him on his front foot and he can't attack anymore. ALLWAY'S get uke's back foot of the ground and he can't attack. This is the problem with many aikido schools. They train the motion only and not the physics of the technique.
Thank you so much!
On my part, I think that the biggest mistake is to worship O'Sensei and to consider that his way of doing a technique is the ultimate way of doing it, that cannot never be improved on. Aikido must evolve (or die?).
Problem is that nobody does Aikido like O-Sensei, like he is seen doing it in the video. Nobody stands like O-Sensei, nobody wears shoes/socks like O-Sensei, nobody hops up and down like O-Sensei except maybe Tohei Sensei. The whole world is trying to do Aikido while ignoring the way O-Sensei actually did it! O-Sensei is facing the uke the entire time. Not even Saito Sensei does it like O-Sensei. The secret is not in going to the side but going down low and extending uke in a circular manner. Uke has no power to hit you while he's crouching downward and no power to hit you while he's suddenly standing up again.
that you sensei! I just passed my first test on July 1st. I just love this art!
0:02 here uke is out of balance and his right arm is extended and his torso is streched also he has inertion in such a direction which is opposite to the trajectory of the eventual attack so any kind of strike with the uke's left hand would not be succesful i think that he is not able to reach O'Sensei with his left arm also a kick is out of the equation because of thr fact that uke is leaning forward at 0:05 O'Sensei is out of the line of attack and he is controling uke's arm with kotegaeshi :)
This is a great video but I think it would have been better to demonstrate it with uke holding a training/plastic knife so people can see what the true purpose of a technique like kotegaeshi is used for, which is to disarm an attacker armed with a knife or even a gun.
Is there any footage of Ueshiba or top students training live? If you're familiar with the Judo footage of Mifune training, tell me why no similar footage from Aikido exists, not one bit in 100 years?
Failing that, footage of any Aikido clowns training live on the internet at all, anywhere?
Its pitiful.
Amazing!!!
thanks sensei!
As well as staying low, one of my favorite turning atemi is the bitch slap! :-) It's one of those that people just don't expect.
Many interesting thoughts on the vidio-mine is ( and i am not a Aikido man by any means) is this-the technique should be tried in slow motion moving the way he shows- see at what point the opponents balance is taken -at that point continue the throw-either high or low as you throw him seeing if you can hit with the elbow or fist as you complete the throw--to go back a little after therelease where youcan start the throw his elbow is vulnerable to being hyperextended.....lots of things can happen in a real altercation-----"Don't be a victim"
well there is a point..if you are controlling already by ude hishigi, you don't need the kote gaeshi, whch would be a loss of time and also would put more risks, in the transition from one technique to the other...
The critic on the high version could be issued also to many techniques of the author: when uke is just a dummy, whatever is good!
Many concepts missing, so...!
Well Stanley It appears that you are bringing him towards you as you step back. Your bringing the arm out. Saito sensei when he does kotegaeshi steps back and returns the arm back in its natural bending positon and out. Without pulling him in. Lost semianrs 7. Also putting your arm over his subjects you to a counter throw.
i know that its an old demo, but
1- why not just as u start twisting his hand, you take a step with the back foot so now instead of having ur body facing him, it will be ur back ? or
2- you can do it normally while raising ur elbow to block any possible attacks or even better, distract his fov ?
From watching all available content presented by Sensei Stanley Pranin, it becomes clear he has 5years Aikido experience 11 times over. Western Aikido is indebted to him certainly for his encyclopaedic knowledge and historical literary works, but his actual Aikido is an embarrassment to serious Aikidoka. More is expected of an Aikidoka with his opportunity and knowledge. Read his articles, buy his books- but don't rely on his practical abilities. Beginners Beware.
To the beginning
Spot on.... traditionalists don't see that unfortunately, its like a fecking bible!! Its why I do Shodokan and IF his balance is taken completely and I mean completely it will work. trouble with Stans is his uke is still solid on his feet.... Mine never are.... It's called aiki kuzushi works every time..... X
肘や当身なんか入れなくても、後ろに下がりながら極めれば良いのでは？
Just let go of his hand!
На мастере дзюдо или каратэ такая техника не работает. Проверено. Бросок возможен только на растяжении (выведении из равновесия) к себе за спину.
I learned Bushido akido naki saki 🛑😁 Suzuki's clan Los Angeles 🛑🎌
The only mistake is taking Aikido seriously as a martial art.
outlaw123Mannyvel so go on tell me explain yourself then as to why you don't take aikido serious as a martial art in you're own words ?
***** This technique would never work to begin with even with his "improvement". Doing aikido and trying to fix its broken techniques is just a waste of time, find a martial art that works if you want techniques that can work.
outlaw123Mannyvel well I will just say to you get some aikido training. because you don't know anything about it. so you can't go around saying it doesn't work if you have never practiced it...I can say well baseball is crap but I don't know anything about it. I have never done it...so how do I know it is if you read my comment about this particular technique..... you will see it does work. how do I know well I have had this technique applied to myself.... I couldn't counter it reason for that is my wrist was controlled by smaller circle technique not big circle technique which you do see In some aikido videos looks impressive on camera it does hurt like fuck. even at half speed. since you're wrist only goes one way give you're wrist a little tweak to see what i mean ?
***** I did aikido for 3 years, I was under the same illusion everyone else is. I enjoyed my training and I hope every other Aikido practioner does but for gods sake its not a martial art, its a hobby for the elderly or people who are scared to, or just not wanting to train for realistic circumstances. BJJ, Muay thai ect. are for fighting. Aikido, iaido, daito ryu are for people looking for a hobby. And kung fu or judo are in between.
outlaw123Mannyvel lol is that what you think aikido is for elderly people or for a person who is scared to train for realistic circumstances or to be used as an hobby lol yeah alright if you seem to think it is. that's not a problem. aikido has daito ryu aiki - jujitsu - jujitsu decendents I thought you must have known this since you practiced it for only 3 years lol never mind ?
Secret: Lmao!! the seen in plain sight that nobody gets FFS? Get uke of his feet and up in the air and you have him at your mercy..... Bloody rap up you traditionalists get wise will ya!!!
Your body movement indicates that you have not practiced.
enough
😂 this whole thing is laughable without a knife this is pointless from and without speed and violence there is no chance!
Well, YOU DON'T SAY! Captain obvious has spoken.....