CAVING forces - how much force does rappelling put on ropes???
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Rachel (@PetzlPrincess) took me pit bouncing in a cave and we measured the forces on the rappel and ascending of a Petzl PUSH 9.0 Semi-Static rope in free hang. The super static 11mm Pit Rope with extra extra sheath attached to the tree was just to get us to the first free hanging rappel. Rachel at 130lbs (with gear) puts no more than 256lbf on the line or 1.14kn. It doesn't perfectly equalize between 2 bolts when there are two but is roughly half the force on each one. When I ascended up with my 160lb ass, I put a peak force of 362lbf (or 1.61kn). Based on this, a 250lb dude would put a max force of 500-600lbf (2.5kn-ish) and bolts in caves should hold about 20kn or 4,500lbf if not more. Other than the 20 ways you can get hurt in a cave, I feel great about the numbers!
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00:00 Intro
00:56 Beginning
02:18 Rebelay's
04:25 Forces on 2 bolts
06:04 Forces on 1 bolt
08:42 Exploring the bottom
09:29 Caving Bolts
10:14 Exploring the caves
11:27 Forces from Ascending
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Dang, that looked like a LOT of fun!!! More of this!
Can we see the full caving expedition????????
In a future cave video we are working on, we have a full start to finish cave exploration project coming out
@@HowNOT2 Are you working on your third channel, howNOT2CAVE ?? Thank you 😊
@@mitchellbarnow1709 it's not an independent channel. It's just a flavor of HNTH, same as the climbing stuff. (:
Careful or you may never go back to highlining or bigwalling. Come to the dark side.
And he didn't screw up leading a pitch of my dome climb, either!
😆
Come to the dark side! hahahahahahaha. So true. I may or may not end up trying my silly sports underground so I can enjoy both :).
Since you both test things, and describe how (not) to do things, definitely some collaboration between you guys would be great
@@HowNOT2 srt mine through trip next, if you get sucked into this sinister subterranean stuff
It's caving, it's an addiction, so true!
As a caver myself this was pretty cool to watch. Always figured the forces would go up while ascending but seeing it done is super informative. Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
I'd like to do another round where we look at frogging versus rope walking versus other styles. :D
@@rachelhasbruises I would assume rope walking would be the least impactful but seeing it would be cool! You guys based in TAG?
@@theasapsquad I am, yes. (:
@John Riggins yes it's a TAG pit. I'm withholding names b/c it's not a Preserve, it's a "landowners good graces" access one (...its TN state survey label is MN05, if that helps).
There's a growing momentum from younger Project Cavers down here that's driving the adoption of mixed rigging. I like the happy medium of "don't bolt it unless that makes it compatible with alpine ropes, and if you are going to bolt it then aim for a way that also serves as IRT access."
Given how damn-near-non-existent vertical caving education is in the US, it's unrealistic to expect that everyone can magically adopt alpine rigging skillz because plenty of people simply lack the mentor to teach them those techniques.
TLDR: "why not both?" :)
Amazing, love this twist of HowNotTo
Got some more twists coming that I'm pretty excited about
@@HowNOT2 Excellent! 👏🏼 Psyched to hear that!
Thanks for starting this series!! You can tell your slightly out of your knowledgeable area of ropework, but that makes it even more fun as you can tell your exited about learning it as you go.
I am a canyoneer, I sometimes train with cavers since we use similar technical skills to manage our rappels. It would be awesome if we could test forces the way that canyoneers use rope and anchors. We often are carrying everything we need such as wetsuit, dry clothes, rescue equipment, extra rope, food, and water in our backpacks, I wonder what that adds to forces. We also use natural anchors such as knot chocks, dead man, rock piles and retrievable setups such as the fiddle sticks and others. I would love to see how much force is required to break a fiddle stick, or slip and fail. I can send you one if you are interested. and the bigger question is how much force do we need to stop someone while belaying... The longer the rope the harder and longer pull required to slow someone down. For example while doing the 300ft rappel at Englestead Hollow, the belayer was unable was able to slow me but not stop me. Awesome video, I am a fan of your channel. Do you know any good mom jokes? Since we also do canyons with water in them, I also noticed that one rope in particular gets a little more frictionie (not a real word), I wonder if we can prove if some ropes get more friction when wet.
Look forward to more caving content
This video I learned the most from. I'm a TRT or part of a technical rescue team.
95 percent of what I do is rappeling. Absouloutlety brilliant. Thank you. By far one of my favorite channels....
Dude if you ever want to come to Utah I can take you to some absolutely gorgeous alpine caves
Take me, too!
Cool video Rachel!
Sweet zebralight! The best headlamp ever!
your channel is pure gold my friend thanks!
I was a climber who started caving...watching those guys put the fear of death in me...
Great one, hope there will be more caving in the future!
Yup. I didn't choke up in the tight spots so we will have more caving videos!
Loving this, hope it becomes a series
This was also really cool to see because I went caving last weekend and have been wondering what forces are involved and then bam! This video comes up. Awesome work.
Awesome episode. More of that cave please !
This is so rad!! I want to explore every cave now!
Great video and really well explained! I’m really glad to see an engaging video with useful information about caving on RUclips. Hoping you make more!
Awesome. My heart ❤ is racing. I'm panicking and loving this. I do feel alive just watching you guys. Love it
Pleease make more videos about this!
Awesome video!
This is why I support the channel🤓
yeeees was looking forward to this so much! such a sweet treat :)
So cool! Always loved cave formations on the surface when hiking. Never had the guts to get into the subterranean world, great to get a peek at it like this!
As a keen caver I found this very interesting and informative. I'll be looking forward to seing more.
Love this. More of this!
Suck video dude. Love how you are finding new ways to record content. Keep it up!
Lmao i work in a cave and its my birthday today and you posted about caving thats dope
You work in a cave? If you work your way to the top, do you get a corner office with a window view? haha
Happy Birthday!
@@HowNOT2 Thank you so much!!!
@@HowNOT2 I actually work in one of the few show caves thats up in a mountain so you actually have to get like 1000 feet above the lake before you go into the limestone, if youre ever traveling north on i5 stop by its by lake shasta. its called lake shasta caverns
Hey, I was here last weekend! It was definitely one of my favorite vertical trips thus far!
perfekt video and beautiful cave.
Thank you! I felt like I was there.
Welcome to the Dark Side! As a caver I found your magic strain gauge fascinating. Can you do a video showing how easy it is to break through a cross-loaded locking carabiner on ascent or rappel? Many cavers (especially new cavers) don't realize that can happen just with body weight, unless they read American Caving Accidents annual, which often records deaths on rappel due to this dangerous configuration. (which can happen quite easily when passing rebelays, even to experienced people, if they've got certain combinations of carabiners, descenders, and D-ring.) Maybe you've already got this kind of video but by making it caver-focused you'll reach a whole new audience and possibly save a life or two For reference see ACA-50 (50th Anniversary edition) which records a rare instance of documented "cross-loading rollout failure" of a locking biner sleeve breaking on rappel (26 May 2015 event) (rare because the caver actually lived, so could be interviewed).
Never been better time to go under ground :)
I'm so clueless about caving while there're so many caves around where i'm...
Thanks for sharing!
Awesome!!
Great video, very educational, cool to see the numbers in real life.
I was wondering if you guys have thought about doing a video on UV damaged soft goods, slings, dog bones, ect.
Break testing some dog bones that have been left as perma draws would be interesting.
Thanks, you guys are awesome! We appreciate all your hard work!
Forces in action!
Nicely done!
Awh, thanks Bill! I'm sure you recognize this classic hole in the ground. ;) I also dragged him through the less-visited sections of a certain Georgia cave
Thanks. Trying to help people who have never gone caving experience what it is like. Like climbing at night, but in a 3d maze!
Brilliant!
Was wondering this fr a while now :-)
Welcome to the party my friend
This was awesome. You need to test some caving traverse lines and deviations next time.
Siick
Great video! Would love a canyoneering video where you test at what force a clove hitch carabineer block slips at.
The Y-hang seems to be the Karash (aka Fusion as she says), not F8 bunny ears as illustrated with Animated Knots clip.
Very cool!
How you doing Thomas. You've been watching this channel a very long time!
@@HowNOT2 busy but good! Slack season is returning to New England now ☺️
"I have never done a hole this big," looks down trying not to laugh "its a pretty big hole"
Moooar!
Great vid. Diggin' the caver love. Natural evolution to your content. We're ugly cousins in a way.....
GREAT VIDEO. Been looking forward to you doing this for a long time! So you going to breaktest some petzl BAT'inox? Originally they had 50kn shear 50kn pullout stamped on them (I still have an old one like that) then one day without changing the product apart from no longer stamping 50 -- 50 | they now certify them 25 shear 15 pullout. So when do they pullout of standard concrete, 15kn and 50kn are very different numbers
Yup. We tested Petzl Coeur Pulses recently and so we can test the big ol BAT-inox ones soon.
@@HowNOT2 how many do you use for a set of testing (6?) they're very expensive :( I like that you can tie directly in to them no biner or quicklink but find some quicklinks don't open wide enough to go on then
This looks sick! Anyone know of anything like this in Wisconsin?
Great content as usual! Question regarding the bolts in this video. You mentioned the rock is limestone and those are wedge bolts. The bolting bible briefly mentions using glue ins for sedentary rock, which limestone is. Curious because there is a lot of limestone near me. All I ever see is wedge bolts. Are glue ins just the preferred option for limestone? Does it depend on the localized limestone and it’s hardness? Looking forward to the new additions to the bolting bible!
Don't worry, I've got like 50+ pages of new Bolting Bible to tell y'all aaaaall about limestone...! ;)
It's going to vary a lot depending on your limestone's quality (the entrance pit in the video has goooorgeous limestone). Generally speaking, if it looks like chossy hell then be afraid, and if it looks like poured concrete then you're likely to be totally fine. It's not granite, so consider some longer ones (like... 4") or using sleeve bolts (Powers 5-piece). Also smack the rock with the hammer and make sure it sounds sexy (good sharp sound) because limestone can have voids / pockets / flakes (...even if it's aboveground limestone).
Wedge bolts and sleeve bolts are the standard underground right now because there's limitations to the practically of glue-ins.
@Derek Bristol 's youtube channel has some good videos about bolting, you should check that out.
@@rachelhasbruises... Thank you so much for the reply and for the brief explanation. That all makes perfect sense. I’m really looking forward all 50+ pages! And I will definitely check out Derek’s channel. Thank you again for answering.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I really enjoyed that.
since I always love when you dive into the world of climb ethics,
is there also some kind of caving ethics?
like don't leave stuff behind; material of bolts; does "trad caving" exist, etc...
This will be explained in the upcoming caving section of the Bolting Bible, but broadly speaking we don't use removable pro (cams, chocks, pitons) at all. In the US, the "old folks" mentality is to rig onto natural features, but bolting is really starting to become vastly favorable to jerry-rigging god-knows-what piece of breakdown (...and hoping it's bomber) and/or dragging excessive amount of rope because the nearest rig point is 50+ft from the pit (shout-out to when the beta says "Pit depth: 36-ft, Rope needed: 90-ft" 🙄🤦)
If you want to go down a rabbit hole, @Derek Bristol has a very good channel covering aaaaall the tedious details of caving. (:
@@rachelhasbruises thanks for the quick and informative response. cannot wait for the next hownot2cave video.
meanwhile I'll check out your recommendation.🔦 🦇 :)
Where I'm from cavers don't mind using explosives so the idea of "trad cave ethic" seems hilarious to me !
@@moonti6820 🤫🤫🤫😉
🙄 That was my first thought, when I saw you in a puffy. You'll shred it for sure.
Bro somebody take me caving!!!
How deep was that cave. From the tree to the bottom ?
Thanks..
Have you heard of the figure 8 knot variation that can be pulled from both end (in opposite directions) and the loop without loosing strength?
nope
@@HowNOT2 it took me a while to find how it is called.
Directional fig. 8
www.animatedknots.com/figure-8-directional-loop-knot
I'm curious how does it compare to a normal figure 8 (hint hint)
My inner Michael Scott really wants to say things around 2:35
2:41 ....Cool 😏
I know it's a 1 year old video now, but still got a question, how do cavers stay on track, like (to not get lost), among all the splits in the routes? Do they draw a map? Do they leave temporary signs on the walls?
Most known caves have surveys. Hard to get a lot of surveys if you aren’t connected at all. I still don’t really understand how to read most surveys cause it gets complicated I just stopped bringing a compass lol. Yes, a lot of times if you are doing an unfamiliar route you should put up some type of marking tape that you bring out when you leave.
That knot looks like 'bunny ears' which is a double figure-8 loop. In climbing we use it to tie in to a belay station. Saves gear and untying the rope between climbers. Same knot ?
It's a fusion knot.
@@rachelhasbruises Thanks. Subtly different looking but the same end result. However it's way easier mess up the fusion knot because you have to pull bights though the knot whereas a bunny ears has one bight to overlock the whole knot.
Caving is something that scares the crap out of me!
It should scare me more. Kinda screwed if I get hurt down there.
Any know what cave this was?
Ah what you call a super 8 we call a “rescue” or “a rescue figure 8” 🇿🇦
I'd never heard of it called that either! We call them figure-8s-with-ears in caving. I like Super8 more though. Funny how many different names knots get! Hahaha
@@rachelhasbruises or bunny knot / bunny ears is what I'd heard them called
@@rachelhasbruises I’ve never heard the term figure 8 with ears 😂 looks like knots truly have their dialects in different parts of the world.
Bunny ears 8 is pretty common internationally...I have heard it called a rescue 8 as well.
Fusion knot is also known as the Karash knot.
Caves are scary.
how is that solid piece of metal giving you any measurements? (I mean how, from an engineering point of view?)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge
I presume there is a strain gauge measuring minute deformations in the metal.
Tennessee?
What cave is that?
Why was the term “jugging” treated as taboo? I understand ascending is the super proper term, but it seemed that “jugging” was met with a little negativity
It's not a taboo, it's just 100% a rock climber term.
Cavers don't call it "jugging," nor do they call ascenders "jumars." I like to tease Ryan about it :P
So next video is highlining in a cave? ^^
Aid climbing. ;)
Shhhhh.... don't give away the secrets! :)
@@HowNOT2 no one reads this deep into the comments except us. We're good. ;)
In a torrent of freezing water.
I don't wear a helmet either, I find that I hit my head more with a helmet than without. I also don't bring knee pads, but I do do shin pads.
9:30 minutes. Super safe enough...?
HowNOTtoCAVE when?
caving in? you must have seen the girl scout cookies for sale last week
I'm surprised that they're aren't more dead animals at the bottom.
Oh that's definitely common in the big open-air pits like this... deer, armadillos, turtles, snakes.
What (TAG?) cave is that.....?????
Well we're not going to broadcast that information, silly... I'd never hear the end of it!
It's the popular open pit everyone hits up when they go to Key West Florida ;)
@@rachelhasbruises Interesting about the fusion knot. I don't recall seeing it in On Rope, Vertical, Alpine Caving Technique, etc. Sounds like a legit reason, but then again at least one of those text explicitly states to never clip in above the knot (such as just one loop). Curious if any caving texts, etc. recommend the fusion knot?
@@gmancolo It's in the French Caving Technical Guide, page 125. It is also used by rope access professionals. It is sometimes called a Karash knot in online references.
Essentially, it has the nippy structure of a bowline but is initially tied like a figured-8. However, unlike a DBoaB, it does not have the risk of collapsing if clipped incorrectly.
On Rope is more than 25yrs old at this point so it's definitely missing a metric fuckton of basic information. I am told it will be included in the (much needed) 3rd Edition of On Rope that is currently being written.
@@rachelhasbruises Seems like a good knot. I saw that apparently FFS is recommending it instead of the bowline on a bight. I assume the double figure 8 / bunnyears is still legit.
Yep -- hopefully the updated edition of On Rope comes out soon!
One... bolt? :|
On the old sketchy up-rope? Yeeeeah. The bolt fairy should go rebolt that shit when she's not busy replying to every single video comment.... Honestly very surprised no one has yet-- it's a very popular sport cave!
Hey, I know that entrance! What are you doing there? Not a choice for filming though.
Who's the goth guy ?
You mean the chick with the eyeliner in the yoga pants...?
...unless there's a scene in here where Ryan has gotten into my makeup bag without me noticing.
I cave like a dumb. If I die a cave will be why
Natural Well
8:34 0.94 km is one hell of a long rappel!
hahaha. I watched this video 20x and missed that. You have a good eye!!!
@@rachelhasbruises Kn was spelled wrong
@@HowNOT2 buahahaha 🤭 I missed it BOTH times. We should just start writing "dead Isaacs" to eliminate any/all confusion.