Back in the mid sixties I ran a motorbike club at a large youth club in Birmingham. I wrote to all the manufacturers to see what interest (and swag) I could get from them. From all the British manufacturers, if anything, I got a copy of their sales pamphlets - from Honda I received six huge crates with workshop overalls, workshop manuals and loads of other stuff - plus a promise of any help they could give. Thats when we realised that the Brit bike market was done!
Of course Honda were making their big push now It’s interesting that they have closed down a lot of such activities in recent years Still the central problem was the massive drop in the sales of all motorcycles from 60 onwards
All British manufacturing industries started dying in the 1960's. Cars, ships, aeroplanes, washing machines,etc. Out dated manufacturing procedures using worn out equipment. There was a problem in the shipyards with rivetters refusing to be retrained as welders when the rest of the world were building ships twice as quickly at half the price. BSA had only one cylinder boring machine in what was once the biggest motorcycle factory in the world. Broken in half in an air raid in 1942 this machine was welded back together to continue boring cylinders for the M20 army bikes. Accuracy was not vital on crude bikes being sent into battle, in 1969 when the triples where being built it was still in use . Of course a skilled engineer could allow for the variables in the use of this machine but it could still only bore one cylinder at a time. Meanwhile Honda had a brand new machine that could bore four cylinders at once. In the 1980's I worked as a dispatch rider. I went to a small factory in Stourbridge to pick up a few boxes of special size bolts to take to the Austin Rover factory at Cowley on a Friday afternoon. At the time Rover were in collaboration with Honda to make the Sterling 827 car as a competitor to BMW and Audi. I arrived and was sent to the assembly line at about 6pm. All the British workers had buggered off but the Japanese were still busy writing up information in their Filofaxes. I gave them the bolts and rode home shaking my head. These bolts had been made on ancient cast iron Victorian machines powered by canvas belts running from overhead pulley wheels tended by an old man in a brown coat walking up and down with an oil can giving each machine a quick squirt. If the Honda engineers could have seen what was at the end of the parts supply chain they wouldn't have believed it . Furthermore, a certain government in the 1960's also taxed any money that was invested in manufacturing companies. What a fantastic idea , I'm sure Starmer's toolmaking father would have approved, possibly his wonderful son will continue and the old man in the brown coat will be over 100 years old now and still working hard to pay his taxes to provide for our uninvited visitors. British industry, the workshop of the world!
Well car sales were rising rather rapidly until the later part of the decade In truth as a clearly mention the motorcycle industry was very much a Cinderella industry The ability to attract investment was always a problem Nothing to do with taxation Taxation was higher in Germany lest we forget Low taxation leading to stronger economic growth is a myth Was then is now Every economic study since the war backs this up I’m afraid
Ive never heard such complete and utter rubbish! BSA would have had many cylinder boring machines and they were after all one of the country's biggest manufacturers of machine tools furthermore it is a myth that British manufacturers were using worn out machinery and that manufacturing tolerances were poor because of this even during the stresses of wartime. What is true is that outdated production systems remained in use till the very end because of poor management and lack of investment in production line systems. Japanese industry even more so than our own industry did in the 1980s relies on small scale manufacturers and jobbing shops many of which are one man bands often using old machinery and methods for the supply of many of its small components so engineers at the likes of Honda would not have been surprised at all by Rovers parts suppliers.
@@grantbaker3336 The piece about the cylinder boring machine is taken from " Whatever happened to the British Motorcycle Industry" by Bert Hopwood who was a senior designer and engineer at BSA. The bolts I took to Cowley is my own experience. And what is your experience?
@@philhawley1219 Wherever it comes from it should be taken with a pinch of salt, there was practically no limit to the supply of new machine tools for wartime production in fact as well as new machinery supplied by the US machine tool production in the UK was substantially ramped up and this was one of the reasons why UK manufacturing was able to get back onto its feet so quickly after the war ended. I have 50 years of experience in engineering as a toolmaker, design engineer and restoration specialist.
@@grantbaker3336 Firstly, I don't consider myself to be an authority on the subject but rather have a passing interest. My understanding is that much of the plant used in Japan by this point in time was relatively new and up to date, firstly because much of the older plant had been destroyed by war and much of what remained had been shipped to China as reparations immediately following the war. And this was no insignificant amount, at the time. At the same time, aid money was flowing in from the US, which the Japanese weren't wasting. While there was a history of boutique artisan businesses (aka "jobbing shops) in Japan prior to the war, General McArthur who was overseeing the rebuilding effort disbanded much of the large industry that was still present in favour of small jobbing shops, which is how they became prevalent suppliers later on. We're not talking about artisan sword or knife makers, though, at this stage, we're talking about a guy with a lathe, a mill and a drill press. My understanding is that while much of their equipment was rudimentary, much was brand spanking new or at least up to date. With regards to BSA and their like, history isn't kind to them with regards to investment in plant, training and production techniques. By the early twentieth century, the likes of the US and Germany were well ahead and perfected the modern assembly line, something that the British had failed to achieve. The British, having survived by the Great Depression, never regained that lost ground and then there was the war. They were on the back foot for most of the 20th century, however those with political aspirations and those admonishing themselves from their own failings chose to paint a very different picture later in the century. As for BSA's boring machines, I have no idea. I would have imagined that they would have multiples thereof, given the volume of production, but I could be wrong. But as to how good the machines were and how well maintained they were, I'd put a fiver or a pint on that. I can almost see the drive shaft, with just a thou or two of eccentricity in it because BSA bought the cheapest, not the best. And I can see it two decades on, with numerous jobs having gone through, missed lubrication and calibration or whatever and having been in need of new bearings for years. Fiver or pint? The choice is yours.
Let's face it, the British made motorcycles were simply outdated and were left behind by better designed, better built, and more reliable Japanese bikes. I stuck with my Velocettes, AJS's and Triumphs for a long time always believing that we built real bikes until the day I was offered a ride on a friend's Honda 450cc Black Bomber.
I watched a documentary some years ago about the British motorcycle industry. One of the things that you didn't mention is the manufacturing employees sabotaging the bikes as they were being built in a move against management. I've never understood stupidity like that.
To be honest I think this likely BS The same urban myth is told about US car workers It’s likely a very poor attempt from inept management to but the blame on the workers they relied on. A very common attitude from the British upper class I’m afraid for centuries, a great example of this is Wellington who despite relying on his troops to defeat Napoleon considered them scum and had them fired upon when they marched for the right to vote In general most workers and managers in the industry were themselves enthusiasts who took a great deal of pride in the work I think such suggestions really does betray the memory of those hard working people, many of whom have since passed away
I have a friend whose petrol tank causes questions about originalality, size, date etc. he knows it is a real factory part because stolen to order. Testers were ill paid, as were factory workers, gathered in cafe, took orders. Condemned parts, replaced, the condemned sold on Saturday public parts counter, proceeds shared by tester and storeman. Deliberately and for decades paying derisory wages caused that. Small well thought of factory. But plenty of stuff went over walls at good wages car factories too. The Honda CB450 had an awful lot of features delightful to schoolboys, not vastly more expensive than our rough bikes. The later CB350 sold 3/4 million because simpler, lighter, better. It beats what our double size bikes can do. I know, one took me to TT over 30 years later, without preparation or any trouble. Lane 3 of M6 at midnight. Different point: Harley Davidson was never Nationalised, had a dismal period. But did put right some of its weaknesses. You cannot beat solid competence, we didn't have it and have you looked at the Bloor Triumph wire wheels?
Typical of management, blame the workers for the failure of their outdated designs. It happens every time the government has to bail out our auto makers. The union almost killed Triumph, but management and poor design killed BSA.
@@bikerdood1100 I will have to respectfully disagree. I've seen these Union tactics with my own two eyes. Whether it be intentionally sabotaging a product or slowing down production it's nothing new. Even the Union railroad engineers refused to run larger locomotives to capacity because they required less train crew.
An interesting video thanks. The bicycle industry in the UK followed a similar trajectory to the motorcycle industry. At one point the UK was just about the biggest manufacturer of bicycles in the world with Coventry being the centre of the industry with over 450 bicycle manufacturers at one point. The peak of bicycle use in the UK came between the 1930's and 1950's. Later in the 1950's as personal wealth and better access to Higher Purchase became available, the bicycling public began to migrate to motorcycles and cars. It was this that began the sharp decline in bicycle manufacture and ownership - briefly being resurrected in the 1970's when the oil crisis bit into people's disposable cash. It is a shame that our once dominant position in the manufacture of two-wheeled vehicles could not have been better supported for export markets by the governments of the period.
Well they were as a rule the same companies of course The cycle boom proved relatively short lived and the interest war years saw much merger and consolidation Many bicycle manufacturers went on to become cat and bike manufacturers of course with many closing the bicycle side on the business down during the depression Schim in the states did the opposite and survived to the present day so perhaps had the companies not been so ready to move away from bicycles it may have been different
I think the practices if Raleigh Buying out the competition Coventry eagle , BSA bicycles and so on only to immediately close them down didn’t help and repeated in self in the practices of Denis poore who swept in and did the same thing to RE and ultimately BSA group which he asset stripped ruthlessly.
By the early 1970s, the writing on the wall had really been written as every BSA and Triumph were sold at a loss of about £100 each. In truth, that was the only reason they sold from 1970 to 1975. By then the offerings from Japan were much more superior to most British bikes which were in reality just updated 1950s bikes.
And yet the Bonnie was the best selling 750 in the Uk in the mid 70s But as the video clearly points out the damage was done Way before that Check out Uk Motorcycle sales figures of All makes,Japanese included after 1960
British management in many industries was appalling. Reluctant to invest in new designs and technology, unless it was for their own perks. Lord and Lady Docker were infamous at BSA bleeding the company dry, but they retired to a tax haven. I remember Lord Harvey Jones looking at British manufacturing, and he was dismayed at the attitude of business leaders, happy to churn out things on clapped out machinery with tolerances non existent. But the car parks full of prestigious cars. Same in textiles my ex trade. We manufactured for the MOD who expected tight tolerences. Good luck with that. In 20 years with this company, I was still repairing and bodging the clapped out machinery. I vividly remember trying to get a part for a particular machine. Rang suppliers, gave the young girl the part number,(they'd gotten rid of the male who knew which parts without needing a number). She couldn't find it on her computer. So told her ours is in a old book. She said, we've got a old book I'll look. Again she couldn't find it. I asked how old her parts book was. She replied 1979, oh, ours is 1941. That's how old some of the machinery. Again, I remember reading a journalists recollections of his time as a motorcycle tester. He visited British factories where parts were needing to be hammered in as tolerances all over. Japanese they slid in. The British industry were churning out pre war designs on pre war tooling. We had some great designers, but no investment. This applies to many of our industries. Now, the Chinese copying designs. The Indians employing miniscule numbers in Europe while picking our skills to mass manufacture in India which has a protectionist economy. Ditto China which copies everything while ignoring patents. We've become a low paid low skilled service/warehouse economy for many. Everywhere you go you see decline.
This is only true for some and absolutely by no means all companies Again your overlooking that the same thing happened in the rest of Europe Some larger companies should have invested in new machinery but as I do point out through out the video the collapse was far mor complicated than you think
Corporate greed and puppet politicians also. Look who gain vast wealth and honours for destroying our manufacturing bases. Textiles? Sir Philip Green, for services to textiles. What services? Helped to put 1000's out of work while he, squat £4 billion in his wife's name in Monaco. Ditto other textile leaders. Why we're now forced to buy overpriced poor quality goods often made by slave labour.
I agree with everything in the video. Also, the British class system led to poor products. Companies were forced to take components from suppliers because the old boys network had already agreed it. If they had issued specifications instead the designs of the bikes would have been better integrated.
Three Books to look for on this subject, Bert Hopwoods "Whatever Happened", Steve Koerners "The Strange Death" and Abe Aimador "Shooting Star". Ask Santa to add these to your stocking.
Hopwoods perspective is interesting but his experience relates to BSA group and to some extent NVT His perspective therefore doesn’t tell us too much about the abundant small companies Velocette RE etc
remember as a school boy looking in cmw motor cycles front window at a goldwing on a turntable for 1200 quid and a t140v for 1700 quid with a drip tray under it which one would you get h.p on ?
To be honest a lot of later Brit bikes A65 for example had a reputation for oil tightness The Gold Wing Only ridden one Heavy brute and I always felt rather like some Harley’s is a machine that appeals to car drivers rather than bikers Certainly never appealed to my and I’ve owned ridden lots of different bikes over the years
British motorcycle harken back to pre WW2 designs,whereas Asian bikes were current technology.The Triumph Bonneville was based on the Triumph Speedtwin,which dates to 1938 and was a 500 cc motorccyle,after the war,the engine was bored out to 650cc and you had the Triumph Tiger and Thunderbird models,which in 1959 became the Triumph Bonneville.
Another factor is that the British motorcycle industry was made up of too many manufacturers competing with each other for a shrinking market and as they began to fail rather than allowing them to die away they were mopped up into bigger groups that simply ensured failure for all.
Too many small ones Sh That’s coming up in the follow up 😂 Was a factor in most countries actually Check out how many manufacturers there were in Europe in the post war years Or even Japan for that matter because there were originally dozens of Japanese companies making bikes
The moving up of smaller companies was certainly a factor in the failure of AMC although to be fair makes such as James and Francis Barnett were not at that point failing but it did mean that they spread themselves too thinly Being a smaller company wasn’t necessarily a bad thing remember Ducati was absolutely tiny at this point
The Fiat 500 killed off numerous Italian brands the mini did the same for the British bike industry. The arrival of the Japanese bikes just nailed the lid on the coffin.
One can only speculate what would've happened had Triumph not been sold to BSA. We can be certain that the Trident would've come out as a '67 model instead of being redesigned as BSA's Cadillac, with the ugly Ogle tank.
British motorcycle companies were pretty small with a couple of exceptions, and relied on bought in parts. From small things like lamps and lenses, to magnetos, to gearboxes and even engines. By contrast Japanese bikes were more homogenous, with the parent company able to exercise greater control over quality and design. They were far from perfect especially in the early days, but were able to adapt and improve in-house designs quickly. Sub-contracting left makers reliant on outside components, some of which evolved at glacial pace, meaning bikes were similar from one iteration to another and even shared between manufacturers.
The Japanese were rather better funded And made their money in Asia not the dying European market As the video clearly points out the decline in the Uk industry/ market occurs before the arrival of the Japanese British machines were far more homogeneous then you suggest also, in fact perhaps more so than the Japanese They had to be They were creating a range with a much smaller budget 🤷🏻
@@bikerdood1100 As others have said, British manufacturers saw big bikes as the was forward, leaving the commuter bike market entirely to the Japanese. We had nothing like Honda Cub, and even scooters like the Triumph Tigress and BSA Sunbeam were reluctant me-too inclusions without much belief in the concept. Villiers were the main supplier of 2-stroke engines, which had little development and were associated with concrete mixers and lawn mowers.
That's why I had to look up Japanese parts by model. year, and month of manufacture to order something as simple as a turn signal flasher!? At least the British learned something about common parts from the war.
@@davidpatterson9840 Yes, commonality is a good thing for keeping a vintage bike on the road, less acceptable for taking the new bike market forward in the 1960s and 70s.
A very interesting video , I think 1959 was the highest volume sales year of all two wheelers ever in the UK , in the year the Mini appeared which was developed not primarily to rid the roads of motorcycles but bubblecars considered not a proper car by BMC management .Fascinating archive video, at 3.39 , the Reverand Brown , riding his 1959 AJS 500 - 154 UMH , well known in the Chiswick - Ealing area in the early 1960s .
Watching old footage of highly skilled old men carefully measuring checking BSA forged cranks in dingy dark factories. These watching cheap fast production of Kawasakis flying off the line to be brutally track tested.. Not enough investment in better faster production or reducing reliability problems..Britain lost those huge markets
You can’t invest what you do not have Should have paid a little more attention to the video The economic failures occurred before the arrival of the Japanese You have you time lines out of kilter really This is the most common miss conception about the British industry Failure of the majority of British companies happened before and therefore has nothing to do with Kawasaki Comparing video taken decades later at a Japanese factory is nonsensical Like comparing a spitfire with a Tomcat Also the assumption that it’s is a Uniquely British industry failure is quite wrong This is a misconception largely brought about because most Brits have no clue about the history of the motorcycle industry in the rest of Europe Again across Europe companies started to fail in the later part of the 50s because if yeh advent of cheap cars Fiat 500? 2cv and a number of other affordable motor cars Cheap cars were the real culprit The correct time line run Cheaper cars became more affordable thanks to HP Motor cycle sales drop like a stone in 1960 Companies fold with just a few much weakened companies surviving The Japanese arrive As for the cranks all modern machines use forged cranks Kawasaki use bolt up jobs because they make two strokes and vary this over on their early 4 strokes but later move to forged items
British companies were much smaller The mass market was created in Asia by the Japanese In the Uk bikes make 1% off all road users In the 50s the they outnumber cars This happened very rapidly It’s obvious why many companies who sold primarily to the home market failed Again nothing to do with Japan
Here's a sixth reason. As you said, the U.S. market kept the U.K. bike manufactures afloat. In the 1960s U.S., there were States where riders could be licensed at age 14, but only if one rode a bike rated with 5, or fewer horsepower. Very few bikes of the 1950-60s fit that. Until the Honda 50 and C110! The Honda 50 Step-Through and Honda C110 Sports Cub were reliable, sufficiently fast, had working lights, and cost $295. Even the, then discontinued, 150cc Triumph Terrier, made 8.5 horsepower, making it ineligible for youths' ownership. Brand loyalty and aspirational buying did the rest.
Well it only kept a few British manufacturers profitable in reality The US market for heavy dirt bikes was relatively short lived however and sales into the 70s weren’t really strong enough to allow Triumph to develop a new engine
Of course in many ways the CT110 was an American machine for the US market conceived by US dealers Not a machine really seen in Europe but very popular in Australia
Well done Marshall Mercer, here's no. 7 reason for British failure to keep up with mainly Japanese motorcycle production. In the late 50s the japanese goverment realised that for a company to succeed it must have help. This the japanese did by giving vast sums of finance to potentionally good m/cycle makers of that time with the understanding that when those companies in japan started to make profits they paid back the finance to their goverment, at which time the japan goverment gave them another but smaller finance grant, to be paid back to their goverment. This ladder of finance help is what created superior machines, which continued to what we all know now brilliant m/cycles & cars. AND WHAT DID WE HAVE TO OFFER ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And that is the very same head in the sand attitude all previous and present British goverment have taken ! Thats why folks we are going nowhere until we can get goverments that think with their brains not with their backsides. We flattened the German and the Japanese countries(WW2) but for a long time they have been the best at all things technical, and left us trailing in last place. We have rubbish cars, motorcycles, optical products, trains, etc, and always will.until we get rid of rubbish politicians.
By 1963/64 the poor quality of small commuter bikes was overcome by the Japanese. Their bikes were not 'cheap' but they were reliable in that their electric were good. The Honda 50 and later 70 and 90 were great little commuter bikes and the owners were not much interested in Jeans, leather jackets and 'biker culture'. Along with scooter riders they aspired to car ownership. The commuters who wanted a bigger bike were not going to put up with Wipac or Lucas electrics and so Honda Benly, Yamaha & Suzuk twins were the choice. By 1970 the only big bike most wanted was the Honda 750 four. An "enthusiast" I knew bought a Triumph 650 Bonneville with a Watsonian sports sidecar and got 10 old pence change from £500. A basic mini was a little cheaper. It was not one thing but the culmination of poor government policy. My father worked in a factory that was shut down and sold off because the land was worth more that the profit on five years production
Let’s not forget the collapse began in 1960 ? There was always a market for cheaper commuter bikes however As MZ would prove filling in the space after deletion of the bantam As I clearly indicate the cause predates the arrival of the Japanese Always consider the time line
Motorcycle manufacturing Management in Britain made bad decisions. I agree that there was a movement against motorcycles and motorcyclists from the 1960s on and coupled with the advent of small cheap cars were perhaps the major factors.
In terms of management Certainly some companies were effected by poor decision making BSA AMC in particular But this simply can’t be applied to all It often seem that the bigger the company the worse the management 🤷🏻
Speaking from a sixties bikers point of view..The Austin/Morris Mini was a major contributor to the demise of the British Motorcycle industry .That baby Boomer generation grew out of being a Biker, bought a Mini, got married, acquired a mortgage, had kids...It cant be emphasised enough just how much influence that little car had on that generation of cafe racer/biker society... l returned .... to being an aging Rocker....in the late seventies/eighties but with BMWs, Ducatis and Moto Guzzi... Now, years later at age 78 l still ride my 2014 Triumph Street triple 675...having sold my 1959 Triton 650...
Well that and the Fords and various others Hp meant that a new car became affordable Of all the things that adversely effected the UK bike market the car is by far the most significant Considering that bikes make up around 1% 0f vehicles on the road today It’s all too clear
I must have touched a raw nerve in my comment a couple hours ago. It was fact, i'm 82 been a biker for 68 of those years. Myself and two partners built a motorcycle business for 35 of those years. Met hundreds of contacts, customers most new the problems with our many makers of motorcycles and their lack of help from our goverments at a time when help would have put us level if not in front of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers and maybe more. And here we are still buying THEIR motorcycles and their motorcars. With just a few bespoke m/cycle builders.look it all up, it's there in world history books/magazines, and my 82 yr old life.
Nope Just pointed out what would have the motivation of their choices I generally ride Italian Haven had a Japanese bike for a while Rather soul less if capable I’d say that the reasoning in 1955 would be very different to today However I still would not compare anything from different ages Car Bikes People Strikes my as pointless and futile pursuit A bike is more than its stats after all Like comparing Hailwood to Rossi Impossible
Motorbikes outsold cars until the mid 1920s, that was because of prices, that half of cars were not saloons and probably most of all that cars had to display lights all night on streets and most people had nowhere to keep a car off the public road. In 1927 the double curved deep pressed steel sheet metal made saddle tanks for bikes and saloon car bodies relatively cheap. The middle classes were the customers and they soon ceased buying poor bikes but the Morris 8 sold 250,000 in 4 years. Only the Bantam and all versions of Triumph Twin combined ever sold such numbers but over 20 years and in more prosperous times. In the 1950s half the two wheelers sold here were Lambrettas and Vespas. Less trouble than exposed chain Bantam etc. but far outnumbered by Morris Minors and several other small cars. The Mini van cost under £400, the 650 over £300, there was nothing much to do to the van except keep tyres inflated but the bike required endless maintenance. Vibration, chain mess, wear and pitiful lights, added to our weather, made relying on a bike a misery labour of love. AMC made gears for Ford, they will have been accurate to spec. It was the design of our bikes which was pitiful. BSA could drill very long thin holes, air rifles, but I helped push one of Hopwood's A10s because its dynamo chain had destroyed the timing side. It was a crass design - most of them were miserable things. Honda made better, cheaper because it sold very sound cheap ride to work bikes, better than Vespa. Moto Guzzi made what the Vincent had hoped to provide. It is robust and simple. A machine is as reliable as it's weakest feature and Vespa or Guzzi have far fewer weaknesses than Franny B or Vincent. As for Government lead with investment etc. The history of our military kit procurement doesn't suggest that Civil Servants, or politicians know anything about timely effective manufacturing.
The history of motorcycle company survival outside of the uk very much says otherwise Moto Guzzi survives because it was nationalised in the 60s along with Ducati 🙄
My notion. After Britain was left with a massive national debt post WW2 again it had to turn to the US for a second financial boost on top of the "National Debt". I think there were strings attached with this massive loan. Most of Britain's monopolies had to be given up. Japan would never have had a chance with its massive historic exports unless backed by massive US Hedge funds.
Er nope Bugger all to do with it as far as I can tell Everyone being able to afford a car was rather more significant You’ve made the mistake of believing this was a uniquely British issue The motorcycle market collapsed all over Europe A simple fact all to often ignored For European culprits look at the VW Beetle 2Cv and Fiat 500, all got off to a slow start initially but were selling in huge numbers by the late 50 For national dept conspiracy see under TSR2 Maybe 🤔
Asian machines flooded the market place back in the early 1970's,Honda had a stellar reputation as well as the rest of the Asian companies,kids loved the enduro trail bikes and mini bikes and the cheap two stroke triples from the early 1970's.
Good video a I agree and have said so myself many times, about the Japanese not being resposible for the death of British bike industry. Most if not all the problems comes down to money, and not been able to access finance, due to the reasons you have already said, who is going to lend money to a dying industry that caters for hooligans? I can understand why the management of most British companies struggled to invest, so I cut them some slack all except Dennis Poore. A couple of other things to remember was most if not all of the smaller companies built their bikes in workshops with craftsmen rather than with mass production in a factory, this left totally exposed to the rigors of inflation. A craftsmen does excellent quality work but they can't produce in volume. So as the cost of manpower and materials increased, production could not, and these smaller companies, even great ones like Vincent and Vellocette slowly bled to death. Now there is an even bigger reason for the death of the British bike industry and that was the British government that at best stood idle while our 3rd largest export industry behind cars and whisky died, and at worst due to it's policies helped it om it's way. They provided no support for the industry in 50s and 60s, they over taxed the industry and they demanded that companies like BSA / Triumph and Norton export most of their bikes to North America, and it was this over dependence on the US and it's short but crucial selling season that done BSA in 71, when they were too late to the market due to manufacturing and reorginisation problems. If our government had loaned BSA the money they asked for in 72, then the events of the next 2 years would not have happened. On the subject of the smaller manufactures, Again if our government had said that no purchase tax will be charged to any car/bike/tractor or lorry manufacture, on their first 5000 units then this country would still to this day have scores of such businesses.
BSAs 71 cock up is the subject of much debate With management blaming the staff, well they would And the staff saying the engine plain didn’t fit Many of BSA groups problems stem from an increasing disconnect between management and the shop floor with the management evening ignoring the likes of Doug Hele
@@bikerdood1100 Lionel Jofeh was the wrong man for the job, but I would say Edward Turner done just as much damage he either got it right or very wrong, but he was a narcissist who refused to admit it if he made a mistake he also helped build animosity towards BSA at Meriden, this in turn allowed the communist shop stewards to get away with a lot more than they should have.
A couple of things I think you missed, the UK stopped making bikes that learners could start out on, learners will probably stick to the mark they learnt on, I passed my test on a 1960 Ariel Arrow, but favourite bike was my 68 Venom Clubman. Triumph should have continued with the Quadrant to compete with the Japanese 4 pots and when I visited Gus Khun's shop in London I was appalled that the build quality was so bad with the Commandos they were selling, the exhaust silencers were at different heights, the rear number plate was squint I though who is going to buy these, so I could see the downfall of the British bike industry even then
Well that’s a good point Because it did indeed steal a lot of sales from the bike market Likely far more than the Japanese in the UK But that’s another video for another time 😉
It didn't help that British tax policy deemed dividends on investment as tax free when investment in modern production and R&D would be taxed. All they could do is try to maximize profits using production equipment and designs from before the last war.
now your japanese started with light weight bikes ans stuck to them a inproved them there the british management were to focused on bigger bike and abanded ligthweights there biggest mistake
Quality control, or lack of. Bought a repatriated 1969 Triumph twin with 6,000 miles on it in 1990 when a lot of cheaper bikes were being brought back from America. One of the cylinder bores was 1/8" off line i.e. diagonally with the top of the bore 1/8" different from the bottom. Testimony of robustness that the engine survived but not impressive. The mix of British threads (BSF & BSW) and American A.F. in the same engine was no help, needing 2 sets of spanners. Fair do - the bike was made in Sept. 69 when Triumph decided to go A.F. in August 69 but bad planning to just mix the parts on the same bike.
Difficult to judge machines built by a demoralised team near the end Build quality in the 50s from my experience was in general very good Quality was a movable feast for may industries back then Poor chrome and rapid rusting certainly characterised machines from a number of companies at that time Japanese cars and bikes had something of a reputation Ditto many European machines Quality control often takes a back seat when a company hits financial trouble Indians 400cc parallel twin story really is a classic tail of this than can leave you wincing 😂
I worked for Triumph back in the 70's as a stylist(never got paid a cent) and the guys in England showed me(a American) who really made the bikes,a bunch of Asian looking fellas came out from behind the sham factory and I assumed these bikes were really made over in Asia somewhere,if this is true it wouldn't surprise me one bit,corporations provide products for people,where and who makes these things matters little to these liars,all they sell is fantasy and want you to part with your hard earned cash!
Old British bikes. Noisy smelly and unreliable, don't we just love em?. One significant factor that no one seems to mention is the UK government's introduction of the 250cc learner limit. Japanese manufacturers introduced lots of smaller capacity bikes which had decent performance, and were affordable. The Brits continued to knock out larger capacity bikes which were beyond the reach of youth. The aforementioned big Brit bikes were sadly lacking in tech, compared to the Japanese counterparts, and were left behind in more ways than one.
Reliability is definitely something of a myth Speaking from experience It should be remembered that in their day they were the main family transport and so were used in all weathers covering high annual mileages Not something that can be said of most modern bikes or riders Certainly they had shorted maintenance schedules back then but I’m not convinced the high mileages between services quoted for some machines is a good thing at all Overhead cams with kind distances between oil changes? This is something carried over from the car industry as a selling point but has resulted in reduced engine life Not that the motor industry is too bothered They only have to last 3-5 years before the average punter replaces them so as long as they stay trouble free for that long job is done Ahh the throw away society 🙄
@@bikerdood1100 Thanks for the reply Bikerdood. You make very good points, and have your finger on the pulse. Can you remember when the market was awash with 100cc twins and the like. Oh for a time machine to replace my bike. Regards Ian.
The design of English motorcycles was their achillies heel. BSA's knew that there was a big market post WWII for small commuter motor cycles both domestically and abroad. The BSA Bantam was a great success, BUT it was a design lifted from DKW as I believe part of WWII reparations. BSA brought out the Beagle, Dandy and their 50cc range of Boxer, Beaver, Brigand and GT50 pus the Ariel 3 but all failed through bad design reliability and quality of manufacture. BSA issued a press release in the mid 1960's saying they would worry about the Japanese when they brought out a REAL motorcycle and spent several years working on the BSA/Triumph 750 three. Then in 1969 Honda brought out their disc braked, overhead cam, electric start, four cylinder CB750. Designed and brought into production in just 9 months, in its first year in the UK it outsold the BSA/Triumph 3 combined, which were plagued by bad design reliability and quality issues. Even the motorcycling press of the day absolutely failed to understand and predicted Honda sales of 50 a year!
That last point in particular - cinderella industry that wasn't given the attention the car industry was whiin truth in the late 60s, 70s and beyond also went from struggling to disaster. Could point the Germany, where among many bike makers only BMW survived in any real scale. And yet BMW were also struggling car wise from the 50s to end of 60s. There I think that the bike plant was in Berlin and that kept this cold war border city going with much West German help. IOW, throughout Europe industry struggled in the 60s and 70s (car wise even VW was near flatlining until the Golf) but in Britain there was no government leadership and never has been to help steer it in the right direction.
Well I do indeed mention that the market collapsed all over Europe For BMW no small amount of Government help bailed out both divisions until they turned a profit But unlike the the UK they had sufficient funds to develop a new range of Also true of Guzzi and Ducati who’s V-twins were developed largely during periods when they were nationalised
Hope wood is interesting but tells the story from the perspective of the larger companies BSA group and NVT to some extent but doesn’t really give us a perspective on the small firms Velocette , RE etc
Certainly the problem in the UK was a lack of interest in manufacturing. Something which peaked into the 80s after that far too much importance was placed in the financial sector in though it is in fact a loss leader
In the 80's I had a honda and rode to a country pub with a gorgeous German GF (only the 2 of us mind not a gang), we got shown the door with the barman saying 'we don't like your kind of people here'.
Happened far too much The attitude to bikers in the UK is awful and at times remains so I’ve turned up in my bike at places to be told that they are overbooked It was obviously BS The popular media and movies certainly has a lot to answer for There’s no doubt that the behaviour of some did not help but it was definitely inflated in the media
In the West Midlands all Banks pubs had a sign outside, "Motorcyclists by appointment only". Your were supposed to write to the landlord and ask for permission to visit. Surely a case of discrimination.
It was a shame that triumph didn't get that new motor into proper production , and even Norton with their very futuristic Nemisis , it was extremely optimistic, but even a 4cyl version would have been a very modern bike for its time . Maybe if they'd tooled up to go overhead cams and got the clutch basket on the right hand side things may have been different . Cheers
All came down to money A big money investor was needed. And while Italian companies got them British one’s didn’t A lot today with the social attitudes to bikes in the UK no doubt
A number of possibilities spring to mind The end perhaps Certainly the high impracticality of EV two wheelers could bring them down It’s interesting to not with Japanese making similar mistakes to the UK industry Moving away from smaller bikes moving away from motorcycles all together Suzuki seem unlikely to continue as a major motorbike manufacturer if things don’t change, they make far more money seeking small cars in Asia I wonder if the market for bigger bikes will run out of steam , there are certainly signs of this Definitely a move to more modest capacity bikes of the past but will it bring in younger riders ? It must They will be fewer companies that’s for sure
Of course, one of the most important points, overall, is that rather than spending the very sizeable loan that Britain got from the US post war, on actually modernising British industries, Britain spent it on trying to pretend that it was still a global superpower. Also know as 'p!ssing it up against the wall" ... pretty much what Britain has continued to do to this very day.
A fair argument but this does ignore the fact that the collapse of the British bike industry did not happen in isolation, the industry across Europe went through the same thing, this is all too often overlooked when considering the reasons
Not sure what the figures on motorbike ownership is today but take off the scooter riders, mopeds , small bikes and the 1percent would be significantly lower and whats left are people like myself who own a motorbike or bikes and ride them purely for fun and preferably on a nice day , but my car is my main form of transport . I use to ride motorbikes as my only transport before i passed my car test . My first car cost 400 pounds , an Austin Maxi and the convenience and flexibility day to day won out. So yes i can see where cheap affordable motorcars would beat motorbikes into second place as an everyday family form of transport. And the motorbike becomes a part time fun toy or a specific form of transport for work puposes. Dominos, just eats etc.
Poor bikes 1. Greedy ceo's 2, lack of innovation 3, Mismanagement common for the uk even today 4, Lethergy in the factory workers 5, Tea 6, and biscuits 7 ! . R.
Not just motorbikes, British manufacturing in general behaved as if their customers should be grateful for being able to buy their products, regardless of their quality. Compare this with the attitude of Japanese industry.
The bike industry hit the skids before the arrival of the Japanese I very clearly point this out in video Remember it wasn’t just a Uk problem Again I do point this it
In Australia during the motorcycle boom of the 1970s which l was a part of the British motorcycles were more expensive than the Japanese motorcycles there was nothing wrong with the British motorcycles but a simple 650cc twin four stroke was more expensive than a Honda CB 750 so which motorcycle would sell better and the British motorcycles just went away and the Japanese motorcycles stayed as for European brands stayed around and there was the Castrol 6 hour production race actually a Triumph 650 won the first Castrol 6 hour it had a quick action throttle and it was held at Amaroo Park and it was a handling circuit and any bike which won would sell well in fact one year a Suzuki T350 won at tge hands of Joe Eastmure who was disqualified for not having a horn when preparing the bike for the race somebody just forgot to put the horn on but the following year he won the 500cc class and during the race he was actually leading and because of N.S.W registration laws there were two categories of classes for registrations and there was one for motorcycles under 299ccs the cheaper registration and above 299ccs a much more expensive registration class so small capacity motorcycles above 299cc suffered a bit and the Suzuki T350 was actually 315ccs
The well in truth Japanese motorcycles were never that cheap But always remember the time line Sure Triumph was still around in the 70s but the problems started to show in the late 50s Time line is important here
Harley does the same thing,taking credit for something they don't even produce!Some anonymous third world workers produce this stuff and lie to you about where this thing was made for real,and then want to charge you a small fortune for something that barely works!
A major cause was bad management,that and making new bikes on machine tools too worn out and incapable of making bikes tat woukd compete. But that alkso falls to management failings
I did say one cause,i think a major cause,taking money out and not investing the buying public will only put up with below par bikes for so long ,then vote with their feet .i have had many british bikes ,my first bike was a british two stroke ,put me off strokers for life and never had another in 50 years of riding
Certainly an accusation levelled at BSA groups Lord and lady Docker But they were pretty much unique at the time Although even in BSAs case over diversification left them vulnerable because they spread themselves far too thinly AMC certainly did not have stellar management that’s for sure and while they certainly didn’t pocket the profits in the modern sense they over extended themselves buying smaller companies in an attempt at empire building And of course AMCs relationship with the press was truly awful
Well thanks for that pointless and inaccurate insight I listened to comments like that until I actually rode one and realised how completely full of crap a lot of people are 💩
What about the excellent German bike companies that went or got out of the motorcycle industry, both 2 and 4 stroke that was basis for many Japanese motorbikes were they also utter shite?
@@bikerdood1100 Interesting fact that might frighten those of us that remember dodgy Lucas electrics is that every Rolls-Royce jet engine from Day One has had a Lucas Gas Turbine (later renamed Lucas Aerospace) fuel pump. Back in the late '60's I did their experimental test & development work on, amongst others, units for the RB211 for the L-1011 TriStar and the Olympus 593 for Concorde. The RB211 evolved into the Trent series and a very reliable engine it is, too.
Back in the mid sixties I ran a motorbike club at a large youth club in Birmingham. I wrote to all the manufacturers to see what interest (and swag) I could get from them. From all the British manufacturers, if anything, I got a copy of their sales pamphlets - from Honda I received six huge crates with workshop overalls, workshop manuals and loads of other stuff - plus a promise of any help they could give. Thats when we realised that the Brit bike market was done!
Of course Honda were making their big push now
It’s interesting that they have closed down a lot of such activities in recent years
Still the central problem was the massive drop in the sales of all motorcycles from 60 onwards
All British manufacturing industries started dying in the 1960's. Cars, ships, aeroplanes, washing machines,etc. Out dated manufacturing procedures using worn out equipment. There was a problem in the shipyards with rivetters refusing to be retrained as welders when the rest of the world were building ships twice as quickly at half the price.
BSA had only one cylinder boring machine in what was once the biggest motorcycle factory in the world. Broken in half in an air raid in 1942 this machine was welded back together to continue boring cylinders for the M20 army bikes. Accuracy was not vital on crude bikes being sent into battle, in 1969 when the triples where being built it was still in use . Of course a skilled engineer could allow for the variables in the use of this machine but it could still only bore one cylinder at a time. Meanwhile Honda had a brand new machine that could bore four cylinders at once.
In the 1980's I worked as a dispatch rider. I went to a small factory in Stourbridge to pick up a few boxes of special size bolts to take to the Austin Rover factory at Cowley on a Friday afternoon. At the time Rover were in collaboration with Honda to make the Sterling 827 car as a competitor to BMW and Audi. I arrived and was sent to the assembly line at about 6pm. All the British workers had buggered off but the Japanese were still busy writing up information in their Filofaxes. I gave them the bolts and rode home shaking my head.
These bolts had been made on ancient cast iron Victorian machines powered by canvas belts running from overhead pulley wheels tended by an old man in a brown coat walking up and down with an oil can giving each machine a quick squirt. If the Honda engineers could have seen what was at the end of the parts supply chain they wouldn't have believed it .
Furthermore, a certain government in the 1960's also taxed any money that was invested in manufacturing companies. What a fantastic idea , I'm sure Starmer's toolmaking father would have approved, possibly his wonderful son will continue and the old man in the brown coat will be over 100 years old now and still working hard to pay his taxes to provide for our uninvited visitors.
British industry, the workshop of the world!
Well car sales were rising rather rapidly until the later part of the decade
In truth as a clearly mention the motorcycle industry was very much a Cinderella industry
The ability to attract investment was always a problem
Nothing to do with taxation
Taxation was higher in Germany lest we forget
Low taxation leading to stronger economic growth is a myth
Was then is now
Every economic study since the war backs this up I’m afraid
Ive never heard such complete and utter rubbish!
BSA would have had many cylinder boring machines and they were after all one of the country's biggest manufacturers of machine tools furthermore it is a myth that British manufacturers were using worn out machinery and that manufacturing tolerances were poor because of this even during the stresses of wartime.
What is true is that outdated production systems remained in use till the very end because of poor management and lack of investment in production line systems.
Japanese industry even more so than our own industry did in the 1980s relies on small scale manufacturers and jobbing shops many of which are one man bands often using old machinery and methods for the supply of many of its small components so engineers at the likes of Honda would not have been surprised at all by Rovers parts suppliers.
@@grantbaker3336 The piece about the cylinder boring machine is taken from " Whatever happened to the British Motorcycle Industry" by Bert Hopwood who was a senior designer and engineer at BSA.
The bolts I took to Cowley is my own experience.
And what is your experience?
@@philhawley1219
Wherever it comes from it should be taken with a pinch of salt, there was practically no limit to the supply of new machine tools for wartime production in fact as well as new machinery supplied by the US machine tool production in the UK was substantially ramped up and this was one of the reasons why UK manufacturing was able to get back onto its feet so quickly after the war ended.
I have 50 years of experience in engineering as a toolmaker, design engineer and restoration specialist.
@@grantbaker3336 Firstly, I don't consider myself to be an authority on the subject but rather have a passing interest. My understanding is that much of the plant used in Japan by this point in time was relatively new and up to date, firstly because much of the older plant had been destroyed by war and much of what remained had been shipped to China as reparations immediately following the war. And this was no insignificant amount, at the time.
At the same time, aid money was flowing in from the US, which the Japanese weren't wasting. While there was a history of boutique artisan businesses (aka "jobbing shops) in Japan prior to the war, General McArthur who was overseeing the rebuilding effort disbanded much of the large industry that was still present in favour of small jobbing shops, which is how they became prevalent suppliers later on. We're not talking about artisan sword or knife makers, though, at this stage, we're talking about a guy with a lathe, a mill and a drill press. My understanding is that while much of their equipment was rudimentary, much was brand spanking new or at least up to date.
With regards to BSA and their like, history isn't kind to them with regards to investment in plant, training and production techniques. By the early twentieth century, the likes of the US and Germany were well ahead and perfected the modern assembly line, something that the British had failed to achieve. The British, having survived by the Great Depression, never regained that lost ground and then there was the war. They were on the back foot for most of the 20th century, however those with political aspirations and those admonishing themselves from their own failings chose to paint a very different picture later in the century.
As for BSA's boring machines, I have no idea. I would have imagined that they would have multiples thereof, given the volume of production, but I could be wrong.
But as to how good the machines were and how well maintained they were, I'd put a fiver or a pint on that. I can almost see the drive shaft, with just a thou or two of eccentricity in it because BSA bought the cheapest, not the best. And I can see it two decades on, with numerous jobs having gone through, missed lubrication and calibration or whatever and having been in need of new bearings for years. Fiver or pint? The choice is yours.
Let's face it, the British made motorcycles were simply outdated and were left behind by better designed, better built, and more reliable Japanese bikes. I stuck with my Velocettes, AJS's and Triumphs for a long time always believing that we built real bikes until the day I was offered a ride on a friend's Honda 450cc Black Bomber.
Yawn
Should probably
1 watch the video
2 pay attention
Then you would have a bit more of a clue 🙄😂
@@bikerdood1100 If the video hadn't been so predictably boring then I probably would have paid more attention.
@@bikerdood1100 Behave yourself fella, probably an old man replying.... think about it.
I watched a documentary some years ago about the British motorcycle industry. One of the things that you didn't mention is the manufacturing employees sabotaging the bikes as they were being built in a move against management. I've never understood stupidity like that.
To be honest I think this likely BS
The same urban myth is told about US car workers
It’s likely a very poor attempt from inept management to but the blame on the workers they relied on. A very common attitude from the British upper class I’m afraid for centuries, a great example of this is Wellington who despite relying on his troops to defeat Napoleon considered them scum and had them fired upon when they marched for the right to vote
In general most workers and managers in the industry were themselves enthusiasts who took a great deal of pride in the work
I think such suggestions really does betray the memory of those hard working people, many of whom have since passed away
I have a friend whose petrol tank causes questions about originalality, size, date etc. he knows it is a real factory part because stolen to order.
Testers were ill paid, as were factory workers, gathered in cafe, took orders. Condemned parts, replaced, the condemned sold on Saturday public parts counter, proceeds shared by tester and storeman. Deliberately and for decades paying derisory wages caused that. Small well thought of factory. But plenty of stuff went over walls at good wages car factories too.
The Honda CB450 had an awful lot of features delightful to schoolboys, not vastly more expensive than our rough bikes. The later CB350 sold 3/4 million because simpler, lighter, better. It beats what our double size bikes can do. I know, one took me to TT over 30 years later, without preparation or any trouble. Lane 3 of M6 at midnight.
Different point: Harley Davidson was never Nationalised, had a dismal period. But did put right some of its weaknesses. You cannot beat solid competence, we didn't have it and have you looked at the Bloor Triumph wire wheels?
Typical of management, blame the workers for the failure of their outdated designs. It happens every time the government has to bail out our auto makers. The union almost killed Triumph, but management and poor design killed BSA.
@@bikerdood1100 I will have to respectfully disagree. I've seen these Union tactics with my own two eyes. Whether it be intentionally sabotaging a product or slowing down production it's nothing new. Even the Union railroad engineers refused to run larger locomotives to capacity because they required less train crew.
An interesting video thanks. The bicycle industry in the UK followed a similar trajectory to the motorcycle industry. At one point the UK was just about the biggest manufacturer of bicycles in the world with Coventry being the centre of the industry with over 450 bicycle manufacturers at one point. The peak of bicycle use in the UK came between the 1930's and 1950's. Later in the 1950's as personal wealth and better access to Higher Purchase became available, the bicycling public began to migrate to motorcycles and cars. It was this that began the sharp decline in bicycle manufacture and ownership - briefly being resurrected in the 1970's when the oil crisis bit into people's disposable cash. It is a shame that our once dominant position in the manufacture of two-wheeled vehicles could not have been better supported for export markets by the governments of the period.
Well they were as a rule the same companies of course
The cycle boom proved relatively short lived and the interest war years saw much merger and consolidation
Many bicycle manufacturers went on to become cat and bike manufacturers of course with many closing the bicycle side on the business down during the depression
Schim in the states did the opposite and survived to the present day so perhaps had the companies not been so ready to move away from bicycles it may have been different
I think the practices if Raleigh
Buying out the competition
Coventry eagle , BSA bicycles and so on only to immediately close them down didn’t help and repeated in self in the practices of Denis poore who swept in and did the same thing to RE and ultimately BSA group which he asset stripped ruthlessly.
By the early 1970s, the writing on the wall had really been written as every BSA and Triumph were sold at a loss of about £100 each. In truth, that was the only reason they sold from 1970 to 1975. By then the offerings from Japan were much more superior to most British bikes which were in reality just updated 1950s bikes.
And yet the Bonnie was the best selling 750 in the Uk in the mid 70s
But as the video clearly points out the damage was done Way before that
Check out Uk Motorcycle sales figures of All makes,Japanese included after 1960
British management in many industries was appalling. Reluctant to invest in new designs and technology, unless it was for their own perks. Lord and Lady Docker were infamous at BSA bleeding the company dry, but they retired to a tax haven. I remember Lord Harvey Jones looking at British manufacturing, and he was dismayed at the attitude of business leaders, happy to churn out things on clapped out machinery with tolerances non existent. But the car parks full of prestigious cars. Same in textiles my ex trade. We manufactured for the MOD who expected tight tolerences. Good luck with that. In 20 years with this company, I was still repairing and bodging the clapped out machinery. I vividly remember trying to get a part for a particular machine. Rang suppliers, gave the young girl the part number,(they'd gotten rid of the male who knew which parts without needing a number). She couldn't find it on her computer. So told her ours is in a old book. She said, we've got a old book I'll look. Again she couldn't find it. I asked how old her parts book was. She replied 1979, oh, ours is 1941. That's how old some of the machinery. Again, I remember reading a journalists recollections of his time as a motorcycle tester. He visited British factories where parts were needing to be hammered in as tolerances all over. Japanese they slid in. The British industry were churning out pre war designs on pre war tooling. We had some great designers, but no investment. This applies to many of our industries. Now, the Chinese copying designs. The Indians employing miniscule numbers in Europe while picking our skills to mass manufacture in India which has a protectionist economy. Ditto China which copies everything while ignoring patents. We've become a low paid low skilled service/warehouse economy for many. Everywhere you go you see decline.
This is only true for some and absolutely by no means all companies
Again your overlooking that the same thing happened in the rest of Europe
Some larger companies should have invested in new machinery but as I do point out through out the video the collapse was far mor complicated than you think
Corporate greed and puppet politicians also. Look who gain vast wealth and honours for destroying our manufacturing bases. Textiles? Sir Philip Green, for services to textiles. What services? Helped to put 1000's out of work while he, squat £4 billion in his wife's name in Monaco. Ditto other textile leaders. Why we're now forced to buy overpriced poor quality goods often made by slave labour.
I agree with everything in the video. Also, the British class system led to poor products. Companies were forced to take components from suppliers because the old boys network had already agreed it. If they had issued specifications instead the designs of the bikes would have been better integrated.
Certainly were a lot of problems
Another videos worth
Three Books to look for on this subject, Bert Hopwoods "Whatever Happened", Steve Koerners "The Strange Death" and Abe Aimador "Shooting Star". Ask Santa to add these to your stocking.
Hopwoods perspective is interesting but his experience relates to BSA group and to some extent NVT
His perspective therefore doesn’t tell us too much about the abundant small companies
Velocette RE etc
Hopwood’s book is good.
remember as a school boy looking in cmw motor cycles front window at a goldwing on a turntable for 1200 quid and a t140v for 1700 quid with a drip tray under it which one would you get h.p on ?
To be honest a lot of later Brit bikes A65 for example had a reputation for oil tightness
The Gold Wing
Only ridden one
Heavy brute and I always felt rather like some Harley’s is a machine that appeals to car drivers rather than bikers
Certainly never appealed to my and I’ve owned ridden lots of different bikes over the years
British motorcycle harken back to pre WW2 designs,whereas Asian bikes were current technology.The Triumph Bonneville was based on the Triumph Speedtwin,which dates to 1938 and was a 500 cc motorccyle,after the war,the engine was bored out to 650cc and you had the Triumph Tiger and Thunderbird models,which in 1959 became the Triumph Bonneville.
Perhaps if you watch the video 🙄😂
Another factor is that the British motorcycle industry was made up of too many manufacturers competing with each other for a shrinking market and as they began to fail rather than allowing them to die away they were mopped up into bigger groups that simply ensured failure for all.
Too many small ones
Sh
That’s coming up in the follow up 😂
Was a factor in most countries actually
Check out how many manufacturers there were in Europe in the post war years
Or even Japan for that matter because there were originally dozens of Japanese companies making bikes
The moving up of smaller companies was certainly a factor in the failure of AMC although to be fair makes such as James and Francis Barnett were not at that point failing but it did mean that they spread themselves too thinly
Being a smaller company wasn’t necessarily a bad thing remember Ducati was absolutely tiny at this point
The Fiat 500 killed off numerous Italian brands the mini did the same for the British bike industry. The arrival of the Japanese bikes just nailed the lid on the coffin.
One can only speculate what would've happened had Triumph not been sold to BSA. We can be certain that the Trident would've come out as a '67 model instead of being redesigned as BSA's Cadillac, with the ugly Ogle tank.
5:47 - Vauxhall VIVA.
You may have noticed I put a correction on Screen 🙄
Do pay attention at the back of the class 😂😂
Besides it’s just a bloody car to me
A box is a box is a box 😂
The sharper of you may have noticed it’s the only tin box with its name in Big helpful letters above it
Can you guess why 🙄😂
@@bikerdood1100
My comment is helpful for any visually impaired viewers.
British motorcycle companies were pretty small with a couple of exceptions, and relied on bought in parts. From small things like lamps and lenses, to magnetos, to gearboxes and even engines. By contrast Japanese bikes were more homogenous, with the parent company able to exercise greater control over quality and design. They were far from perfect especially in the early days, but were able to adapt and improve in-house designs quickly. Sub-contracting left makers reliant on outside components, some of which evolved at glacial pace, meaning bikes were similar from one iteration to another and even shared between manufacturers.
The size of the company’s varies considerably
How big do think Ducati was prior to 1990
??
Tiny
Check out the production numbers for the ss750
The Japanese were rather better funded
And made their money in Asia not the dying European market
As the video clearly points out the decline in the Uk industry/ market occurs before the arrival of the Japanese
British machines were far more homogeneous then you suggest also, in fact perhaps more so than the Japanese
They had to be
They were creating a range with a much smaller budget 🤷🏻
@@bikerdood1100 As others have said, British manufacturers saw big bikes as the was forward, leaving the commuter bike market entirely to the Japanese. We had nothing like Honda Cub, and even scooters like the Triumph Tigress and BSA Sunbeam were reluctant me-too inclusions without much belief in the concept. Villiers were the main supplier of 2-stroke engines, which had little development and were associated with concrete mixers and lawn mowers.
That's why I had to look up Japanese parts by model. year, and month of manufacture to order something as simple as a turn signal flasher!?
At least the British learned something about common parts from the war.
@@davidpatterson9840 Yes, commonality is a good thing for keeping a vintage bike on the road, less acceptable for taking the new bike market forward in the 1960s and 70s.
A very interesting video , I think 1959 was the highest volume sales year of all two wheelers ever in the UK , in the year the Mini appeared which was developed not primarily to rid the roads of motorcycles but bubblecars considered not a proper car by BMC management .Fascinating archive video, at 3.39 , the Reverand Brown , riding his 1959 AJS 500 - 154 UMH , well known in the Chiswick - Ealing area in the early 1960s .
Unfortunately it did not carry onto 1960 and beyond
After that if you didn’t have a strong presence in the US market in particular you were in trouble
Watching old footage of highly skilled old men carefully measuring checking BSA forged cranks in dingy dark factories.
These watching cheap fast production of Kawasakis flying off the line to be brutally track tested..
Not enough investment in better faster production or reducing reliability problems..Britain lost those huge markets
You can’t invest what you do not have
Should have paid a little more attention to the video
The economic failures occurred before the arrival of the Japanese
You have you time lines out of kilter really
This is the most common miss conception about the British industry
Failure of the majority of British companies happened before and therefore has nothing to do with Kawasaki
Comparing video taken decades later at a Japanese factory is nonsensical
Like comparing a spitfire with a Tomcat
Also the assumption that it’s is a Uniquely British industry failure is quite wrong
This is a misconception largely brought about because most Brits have no clue about the history of the motorcycle industry in the rest of Europe
Again across Europe companies started to fail in the later part of the 50s because if yeh advent of cheap cars
Fiat 500? 2cv and a number of other affordable motor cars
Cheap cars were the real culprit
The correct time line run
Cheaper cars became more affordable thanks to HP
Motor cycle sales drop like a stone in 1960
Companies fold with just a few much weakened companies surviving
The Japanese arrive
As for the cranks all modern machines use forged cranks
Kawasaki use bolt up jobs because they make two strokes and vary this over on their early 4 strokes but later move to forged items
British companies were much smaller
The mass market was created in Asia by the Japanese
In the Uk bikes make 1% off all road users
In the 50s the they outnumber cars
This happened very rapidly
It’s obvious why many companies who sold primarily to the home market failed
Again nothing to do with Japan
Here's a sixth reason. As you said, the U.S. market kept the U.K. bike manufactures afloat. In the 1960s U.S., there were States where riders could be licensed at age 14, but only if one rode a bike rated with 5, or fewer horsepower. Very few bikes of the 1950-60s fit that. Until the Honda 50 and C110! The Honda 50 Step-Through and Honda C110 Sports Cub were reliable, sufficiently fast, had working lights, and cost $295. Even the, then discontinued, 150cc Triumph Terrier, made 8.5 horsepower, making it ineligible for youths' ownership. Brand loyalty and aspirational buying did the rest.
Well it only kept a few British manufacturers profitable in reality
The US market for heavy dirt bikes was relatively short lived however and sales into the 70s weren’t really strong enough to allow Triumph to develop a new engine
Of course in many ways the CT110 was an American machine for the US market conceived by US dealers
Not a machine really seen in Europe but very popular in Australia
Well done Marshall Mercer, here's no. 7 reason for British failure to keep up with mainly Japanese motorcycle production. In the late 50s the japanese goverment realised that for a company to succeed it must have help. This the japanese did by giving vast sums of finance to potentionally good m/cycle makers of that time with the understanding that when those companies in japan started to make profits they paid back the finance to their goverment, at which time the japan goverment gave them another but smaller finance grant, to be paid back to their goverment. This ladder of finance help is what created superior machines, which continued to what we all know now brilliant m/cycles & cars. AND WHAT DID WE HAVE TO OFFER ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And that is the very same head in the sand attitude all previous and present British goverment have taken ! Thats why folks we are going nowhere until we can get goverments that think with their brains not with their backsides. We flattened the German and the Japanese countries(WW2) but for a long time they have been the best at all things technical, and left us trailing in last place. We have rubbish cars, motorcycles, optical products, trains, etc, and always will.until we get rid of rubbish politicians.
Excellent presentation. I had no idea that bike outnumbered car in the early 50s.
Indeed they did
Also the case in the 1929s too
By 1963/64 the poor quality of small commuter bikes was overcome by the Japanese. Their bikes were not 'cheap' but they were reliable in that their electric were good. The Honda 50 and later 70 and 90 were great little commuter bikes and the owners were not much interested in Jeans, leather jackets and 'biker culture'. Along with scooter riders they aspired to car ownership. The commuters who wanted a bigger bike were not going to put up with Wipac or Lucas electrics and so Honda Benly, Yamaha & Suzuk twins were the choice. By 1970 the only big bike most wanted was the Honda 750 four. An "enthusiast" I knew bought a Triumph 650 Bonneville with a Watsonian sports sidecar and got 10 old pence change from £500. A basic mini was a little cheaper. It was not one thing but the culmination of poor government policy. My father worked in a factory that was shut down and sold off because the land was worth more that the profit on five years production
Let’s not forget the collapse began in 1960 ?
There was always a market for cheaper commuter bikes however
As MZ would prove filling in the space after deletion of the bantam
As I clearly indicate the cause predates the arrival of the Japanese
Always consider the time line
Motorcycle manufacturing Management in Britain made bad decisions. I agree that there was a movement against motorcycles and motorcyclists from the 1960s on and coupled with the advent of small cheap cars were perhaps the major factors.
In terms of management
Certainly some companies were effected by poor decision making
BSA AMC in particular
But this simply can’t be applied to all
It often seem that the bigger the company the worse the management 🤷🏻
Speaking from a sixties bikers point of view..The Austin/Morris Mini was a major contributor to the demise of the British Motorcycle industry .That baby Boomer generation grew out of being a Biker, bought a Mini, got married, acquired a mortgage, had kids...It cant be emphasised enough just how much influence that little car had on that generation of cafe racer/biker society... l returned .... to being an aging Rocker....in the late seventies/eighties but with BMWs, Ducatis and Moto Guzzi... Now, years later at age 78 l still ride my 2014 Triumph Street triple 675...having sold my 1959 Triton 650...
Well that and the Fords and various others
Hp meant that a new car became affordable
Of all the things that adversely effected the UK bike market the car is by far the most significant
Considering that bikes make up around 1% 0f vehicles on the road today
It’s all too clear
I must have touched a raw nerve in my comment a couple hours ago. It was fact, i'm 82 been a biker for 68 of those years. Myself and two partners built a motorcycle business for 35 of those years. Met hundreds of contacts, customers most new the problems with our many makers of motorcycles and their lack of help from our goverments at a time when help would have put us level if not in front of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers and maybe more. And here we are still buying THEIR motorcycles and their motorcars. With just a few bespoke m/cycle builders.look it all up, it's there in world history books/magazines, and my 82 yr old life.
Nope
Just pointed out what would have the motivation of their choices
I generally ride Italian
Haven had a Japanese bike for a while
Rather soul less if capable
I’d say that the reasoning in 1955 would be very different to today
However
I still would not compare anything from different ages
Car
Bikes
People
Strikes my as pointless and futile pursuit
A bike is more than its stats after all
Like comparing
Hailwood to Rossi
Impossible
Very enjoyable Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
Motorbikes outsold cars until the mid 1920s, that was because of prices, that half of cars were not saloons and probably most of all that cars had to display lights all night on streets and most people had nowhere to keep a car off the public road. In 1927 the double curved deep pressed steel sheet metal made saddle tanks for bikes and saloon car bodies relatively cheap. The middle classes were the customers and they soon ceased buying poor bikes but the Morris 8 sold 250,000 in 4 years. Only the Bantam and all versions of Triumph Twin combined ever sold such numbers but over 20 years and in more prosperous times. In the 1950s half the two wheelers sold here were Lambrettas and Vespas. Less trouble than exposed chain Bantam etc. but far outnumbered by Morris Minors and several other small cars.
The Mini van cost under £400, the 650 over £300, there was nothing much to do to the van except keep tyres inflated but the bike required endless maintenance. Vibration, chain mess, wear and pitiful lights, added to our weather, made relying on a bike a misery labour of love.
AMC made gears for Ford, they will have been accurate to spec. It was the design of our bikes which was pitiful. BSA could drill very long thin holes, air rifles, but I helped push one of Hopwood's A10s because its dynamo chain had destroyed the timing side. It was a crass design - most of them were miserable things. Honda made better, cheaper because it sold very sound cheap ride to work bikes, better than Vespa. Moto Guzzi made what the Vincent had hoped to provide. It is robust and simple.
A machine is as reliable as it's weakest feature and Vespa or Guzzi have far fewer weaknesses than Franny B or Vincent.
As for Government lead with investment etc. The history of our military kit procurement doesn't suggest that Civil Servants, or politicians know anything about timely effective manufacturing.
The history of motorcycle company survival outside of the uk very much says otherwise
Moto Guzzi survives because it was nationalised in the 60s along with Ducati
🙄
My notion. After Britain was left with a massive national debt post WW2 again it had to turn to the US for a second financial boost on top of the "National Debt". I think there were strings attached with this massive loan. Most of Britain's monopolies had to be given up.
Japan would never have had a chance with its massive historic exports unless backed by massive US Hedge funds.
Er nope
Bugger all to do with it as far as I can tell
Everyone being able to afford a car was rather more significant
You’ve made the mistake of believing this was a uniquely British issue
The motorcycle market collapsed all over Europe
A simple fact all to often ignored
For European culprits look at the VW Beetle
2Cv and Fiat 500, all got off to a slow start initially but were selling in huge numbers by the late 50
For national dept conspiracy see under TSR2
Maybe 🤔
Asian machines flooded the market place back in the early 1970's,Honda had a stellar reputation as well as the rest of the Asian companies,kids loved the enduro trail bikes and mini bikes and the cheap two stroke triples from the early 1970's.
Watch the video 🙄
Good video a I agree and have said so myself many times, about the Japanese not being resposible for the death of British bike industry. Most if not all the problems comes down to money, and not been able to access finance, due to the reasons you have already said, who is going to lend money to a dying industry that caters for hooligans? I can understand why the management of most British companies struggled to invest, so I cut them some slack all except Dennis Poore. A couple of other things to remember was most if not all of the smaller companies built their bikes in workshops with craftsmen rather than with mass production in a factory, this left totally exposed to the rigors of inflation. A craftsmen does excellent quality work but they can't produce in volume. So as the cost of manpower and materials increased, production could not, and these smaller companies, even great ones like Vincent and Vellocette slowly bled to death. Now there is an even bigger reason for the death of the British bike industry and that was the British government that at best stood idle while our 3rd largest export industry behind cars and whisky died, and at worst due to it's policies helped it om it's way. They provided no support for the industry in 50s and 60s, they over taxed the industry and they demanded that companies like BSA / Triumph and Norton export most of their bikes to North America, and it was this over dependence on the US and it's short but crucial selling season that done BSA in 71, when they were too late to the market due to manufacturing and reorginisation problems. If our government had loaned BSA the money they asked for in 72, then the events of the next 2 years would not have happened. On the subject of the smaller manufactures, Again if our government had said that no purchase tax will be charged to any car/bike/tractor or lorry manufacture, on their first 5000 units then this country would still to this day have scores of such businesses.
Certainly they did effect what was left but Poole do so love to oversimplify
BSAs 71 cock up is the subject of much debate
With management blaming the staff, well they would
And the staff saying the engine plain didn’t fit
Many of BSA groups problems stem from an increasing disconnect between management and the shop floor with the management evening ignoring the likes of Doug Hele
@@bikerdood1100 Lionel Jofeh was the wrong man for the job, but I would say Edward Turner done just as much damage he either got it right or very wrong, but he was a narcissist who refused to admit it if he made a mistake he also helped build animosity towards BSA at Meriden, this in turn allowed the communist shop stewards to get away with a lot more than they should have.
A couple of things I think you missed, the UK stopped making bikes that learners could start out on, learners will probably stick to the mark they learnt on, I passed my test on a 1960 Ariel Arrow, but favourite bike was my 68 Venom Clubman. Triumph should have continued with the Quadrant to compete with the Japanese 4 pots and when I visited Gus Khun's shop in London I was appalled that the build quality was so bad with the Commandos they were selling, the exhaust silencers were at different heights, the rear number plate was squint I though who is going to buy these, so I could see the downfall of the British bike industry even then
To be fair to the commando the build quality issues really started with later models
Too many factory moves
Too much chaos not a good recipe at all
Where did the Reliant 3 Wheeler fit in ?
Well that’s a good point
Because it did indeed steal a lot of sales from the bike market
Likely far more than the Japanese in the UK
But that’s another video for another time 😉
It didn't help that British tax policy deemed dividends on investment as tax free when investment in modern production and R&D would be taxed. All they could do is try to maximize profits using production equipment and designs from before the last war.
No
But the fact remains that the motorcycle market tanked in the 60
Rather like today
now your japanese started with light weight bikes ans stuck to them a inproved them there the british management were to focused on bigger bike and abanded ligthweights there biggest mistake
It’s interesting to see the Japanese making the same mistake today isn’t it
Quality control, or lack of. Bought a repatriated 1969 Triumph twin with 6,000 miles on it in 1990 when a lot of cheaper bikes were being brought back from America. One of the cylinder bores was 1/8" off line i.e. diagonally with the top of the bore 1/8" different from the bottom. Testimony of robustness that the engine survived but not impressive. The mix of British threads (BSF & BSW) and American A.F. in the same engine was no help, needing 2 sets of spanners. Fair do - the bike was made in Sept. 69 when Triumph decided to go A.F. in August 69 but bad planning to just mix the parts on the same bike.
Difficult to judge machines built by a demoralised team near the end
Build quality in the 50s from my experience was in general very good
Quality was a movable feast for may industries back then
Poor chrome and rapid rusting certainly characterised machines from a number of companies at that time
Japanese cars and bikes had something of a reputation
Ditto many European machines
Quality control often takes a back seat when a company hits financial trouble
Indians 400cc parallel twin story really is a classic tail of this than can leave you wincing 😂
I worked for Triumph back in the 70's as a stylist(never got paid a cent) and the guys in England showed me(a American) who really made the bikes,a bunch of Asian looking fellas came out from behind the sham factory and I assumed these bikes were really made over in Asia somewhere,if this is true it wouldn't surprise me one bit,corporations provide products for people,where and who makes these things matters little to these liars,all they sell is fantasy and want you to part with your hard earned cash!
Are you a drinker perhaps 🤔
The earth is flat FYI 😂
Old British bikes. Noisy smelly and unreliable, don't we just love em?. One significant factor that no one seems to mention is the UK government's introduction of the 250cc learner limit. Japanese manufacturers introduced lots of smaller capacity bikes which had decent performance, and were affordable. The Brits continued to knock out larger capacity bikes which were beyond the reach of youth. The aforementioned big Brit bikes were sadly lacking in tech, compared to the Japanese counterparts, and were left behind in more ways than one.
Reliability is definitely something of a myth
Speaking from experience
It should be remembered that in their day they were the main family transport and so were used in all weathers covering high annual mileages
Not something that can be said of most modern bikes or riders
Certainly they had shorted maintenance schedules back then but I’m not convinced the high mileages between services quoted for some machines is a good thing at all
Overhead cams with kind distances between oil changes?
This is something carried over from the car industry as a selling point but has resulted in reduced engine life
Not that the motor industry is too bothered
They only have to last 3-5 years before the average punter replaces them so as long as they stay trouble free for that long job is done
Ahh the throw away society 🙄
Interesting point about the 250 law
Certainly did not help
But cheap cars are rely the prime suspect
Affordable and with no capacity restrictions
@@bikerdood1100 Thanks for the reply Bikerdood. You make very good points, and have your finger on the pulse. Can you remember when the market was awash with 100cc twins and the like. Oh for a time machine to replace my bike. Regards Ian.
The design of English motorcycles was their achillies heel. BSA's knew that there was a big market post WWII for small commuter motor cycles both domestically and abroad. The BSA Bantam was a great success, BUT it was a design lifted from DKW as I believe part of WWII reparations. BSA brought out the Beagle, Dandy and their 50cc range of Boxer, Beaver, Brigand and GT50 pus the Ariel 3 but all failed through bad design reliability and quality of manufacture. BSA issued a press release in the mid 1960's saying they would worry about the Japanese when they brought out a REAL motorcycle and spent several years working on the BSA/Triumph 750 three. Then in 1969 Honda brought out their disc braked, overhead cam, electric start, four cylinder CB750. Designed and brought into production in just 9 months, in its first year in the UK it outsold the BSA/Triumph 3 combined, which were plagued by bad design reliability and quality issues. Even the motorcycling press of the day absolutely failed to understand and predicted Honda sales of 50 a year!
The CB750
Is very late in the equation and the damaged happened long before then
Should have watched the video a little more closely
The advantage on early disc breaks is extremely debatable
Your also making the mistake of thinking that Triumph BSA group was the motorcycle industry
That last point in particular - cinderella industry that wasn't given the attention the car industry was whiin truth in the late 60s, 70s and beyond also went from struggling to disaster. Could point the Germany, where among many bike makers only BMW survived in any real scale. And yet BMW were also struggling car wise from the 50s to end of 60s. There I think that the bike plant was in Berlin and that kept this cold war border city going with much West German help. IOW, throughout Europe industry struggled in the 60s and 70s (car wise even VW was near flatlining until the Golf) but in Britain there was no government leadership and never has been to help steer it in the right direction.
Well I do indeed mention that the market collapsed all over Europe
For BMW no small amount of Government help bailed out both divisions until they turned a profit
But unlike the the UK they had sufficient funds to develop a new range of
Also true of Guzzi and Ducati who’s V-twins were developed largely during periods when they were nationalised
Hope wood is interesting but tells the story from the perspective of the larger companies BSA group and NVT to some extent but doesn’t really give us a perspective on the small firms
Velocette , RE etc
Certainly the problem in the UK was a lack of interest in manufacturing. Something which peaked into the 80s after that far too much importance was placed in the financial sector in though it is in fact a loss leader
In the 80's I had a honda and rode to a country pub with a gorgeous German GF (only the 2 of us mind not a gang), we got shown the door with the barman saying 'we don't like your kind of people here'.
Happened far too much
The attitude to bikers in the UK is awful and at times remains so
I’ve turned up in my bike at places to be told that they are overbooked
It was obviously BS
The popular media and movies certainly has a lot to answer for
There’s no doubt that the behaviour of some did not help but it was definitely inflated in the media
In the West Midlands all Banks pubs had a sign outside, "Motorcyclists by appointment only".
Your were supposed to write to the landlord and ask for permission to visit.
Surely a case of discrimination.
It was a shame that triumph didn't get that new motor into proper production , and even Norton with their very futuristic Nemisis , it was extremely optimistic, but even a 4cyl version would have been a very modern bike for its time . Maybe if they'd tooled up to go overhead cams and got the clutch basket on the right hand side things may have been different . Cheers
All came down to money
A big money investor was needed. And while Italian companies got them British one’s didn’t
A lot today with the social attitudes to bikes in the UK no doubt
Very interesting. Wonder what the next couple of decades will bring for motorcycles.
Unknown popularity of Zero emission machines
A number of possibilities spring to mind
The end perhaps
Certainly the high impracticality of EV two wheelers could bring them down
It’s interesting to not with Japanese making similar mistakes to the UK industry
Moving away from smaller bikes moving away from motorcycles all together
Suzuki seem unlikely to continue as a major motorbike manufacturer if things don’t change, they make far more money seeking small cars in Asia
I wonder if the market for bigger bikes will run out of steam , there are certainly signs of this
Definitely a move to more modest capacity bikes of the past but will it bring in younger riders ?
It must
They will be fewer companies that’s for sure
Of course, one of the most important points, overall, is that rather than spending the very sizeable loan that Britain got from the US post war, on actually modernising British industries, Britain spent it on trying to pretend that it was still a global superpower. Also know as 'p!ssing it up against the wall" ... pretty much what Britain has continued to do to this very day.
A fair argument but this does ignore the fact that the collapse of the British bike industry did not happen in isolation, the industry across Europe went through the same thing, this is all too often overlooked when considering the reasons
Not sure what the figures on motorbike ownership is today but take off the scooter riders, mopeds , small bikes and the 1percent would be significantly lower and whats left are people like myself who own a motorbike or bikes and ride them purely for fun and preferably on a nice day , but my car is my main form of transport . I use to ride motorbikes as my only transport before i passed my car test . My first car cost 400 pounds , an Austin Maxi and the convenience and flexibility day to day won out. So yes i can see where cheap affordable motorcars would beat motorbikes into second place as an everyday family form of transport. And the motorbike becomes a part time fun toy or a specific form of transport for work puposes. Dominos, just eats etc.
We do tend to follow the American practice of seeing them as a leisure activity today
I do commute by motorcycle myself whenever possible
As the missus was in the cold sidecar with the children and shopping, the Mini was aimed at the lady of the house, clever marketing.
Clever all round really
Poor bikes 1. Greedy ceo's 2, lack
of innovation 3, Mismanagement
common for the uk even today 4,
Lethergy in the factory workers 5,
Tea 6, and biscuits 7 ! . R.
Should probably had watched the video first
@bikerdood1100 I dont need the video i lived right through it , im 74.
R.
Vibrations and Lucas electrics were the downfall of English cycling ,along with the Japanese invasion of fun bikes.
Oh
Check that timeline
As I point out in the video, that’s gross oversimplification
That Vauxhall Victor is an HA Viva
If you look at the video it has a correction placed there for a reason 🙄
Frankly it is just a bloody car anyway 😂
Not just motorbikes, British manufacturing in general behaved as if their customers should be grateful for being able to buy their products, regardless of their quality. Compare this with the attitude of Japanese industry.
The bike industry hit the skids before the arrival of the Japanese I very clearly point this out in video
Remember it wasn’t just a Uk problem
Again I do point this it
In Australia during the motorcycle boom of the 1970s which l was a part of the British motorcycles were more expensive than the Japanese motorcycles there was nothing wrong with the British motorcycles but a simple 650cc twin four stroke was more expensive than a Honda CB 750 so which motorcycle would sell better and the British motorcycles just went away and the Japanese motorcycles stayed as for European brands stayed around and there was the Castrol 6 hour production race actually a Triumph 650 won the first Castrol 6 hour it had a quick action throttle and it was held at Amaroo Park and it was a handling circuit and any bike which won would sell well in fact one year a Suzuki T350 won at tge hands of Joe Eastmure who was disqualified for not having a horn when preparing the bike for the race somebody just forgot to put the horn on but the following year he won the 500cc class and during the race he was actually leading and because of N.S.W registration laws there were two categories of classes for registrations and there was one for motorcycles under 299ccs the cheaper registration and above 299ccs a much more expensive registration class so small capacity motorcycles above 299cc suffered a bit and the Suzuki T350 was actually 315ccs
The fact is the industry was pretty much dead by then
The 70s was right at the end and most companies were already gone
OLD ENGLISH BIKES WERE FANTASTIC BACK IN 1950S. THEN CAME THE JAPANESE WAVE. FAST. CHEAP. THEN THE SUPERBIKES. IN THE 1970S.
The well in truth Japanese motorcycles were never that cheap
But always remember the time line
Sure Triumph was still around in the 70s but the problems started to show in the late 50s
Time line is important here
Look at pictures of a 1969 Honda 750 and a 1969 Velocette 500 venom.
There you go
Should probably have watched the video first 🙄
But then ignorance is bliss that say 😂
In life you even a student of history or your not
There you go😂
Harley does the same thing,taking credit for something they don't even produce!Some anonymous third world workers produce this stuff and lie to you about where this thing was made for real,and then want to charge you a small fortune for something that barely works!
You know the video is about the 50s and 70s
Not modern day internet conspiracy theories 🙄
A major cause was bad management,that and making new bikes on machine tools too worn out and incapable of making bikes tat woukd compete. But that alkso falls to management failings
This ignores that fact they in the most part they could not afford to retool
Management is only a factor for some companies
Not all by any means
I did say one cause,i think a major cause,taking money out and not investing the buying public will only put up with below par bikes for so long ,then vote with their feet .i have had many british bikes ,my first bike was a british two stroke ,put me off strokers for life and never had another in 50 years of riding
Certainly an accusation levelled at BSA groups
Lord and lady Docker
But they were pretty much unique at the time
Although even in BSAs case over diversification left them vulnerable because they spread themselves far too thinly
AMC certainly did not have stellar management that’s for sure and while they certainly didn’t pocket the profits in the modern sense they over extended themselves buying smaller companies in an attempt at empire building
And of course AMCs relationship with the press was truly awful
Not complicated ...British road bikes were plain shite .
Well thanks for that pointless and inaccurate insight
I listened to comments like that until I actually rode one and realised how completely full of crap a lot of people are 💩
@bikerdood1100 The proof is in the lack of British bike sales today ..results speak for them selves ...
What about the excellent German bike companies that went or got out of the motorcycle industry, both 2 and 4 stroke that was basis for many Japanese motorbikes were they also utter shite?
@jasonhull1342 this conversation is about British motorcycles . German bikes are a different discussion ...
Ulez for bikes come on so stupid
Definitely one of those there London problems 🤷🏼
But is rather pointless
Wiring by Lucas the Prince of Darkness helped a lot
Same people did the cars that stole the motorcycles market 🙄
@@bikerdood1100 Interesting fact that might frighten those of us that remember dodgy Lucas electrics is that every Rolls-Royce jet engine from Day One has had a Lucas Gas Turbine (later renamed Lucas Aerospace) fuel pump. Back in the late '60's I did their experimental test & development work on, amongst others, units for the RB211 for the L-1011 TriStar and the Olympus 593 for Concorde. The RB211 evolved into the Trent series and a very reliable engine it is, too.