Wang Chuqin = illegal serve ?
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- Опубликовано: 29 мар 2024
- Is the serve of Wang Chuqin illegal?
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Very correct analysis.. and illegal serves make reciver very vulnerable, giving major advantage to server.. in simple word it's pure cheating.. ittf should bring in more stringent rules against such cheaters..for example after say 3 such serves cheater must be declared as 'lost'
there should be an angle limit for how straight up the serve is. if your ball is tossed at more than 10 degrees off of vertical, then its always a fault
why cant the reciever call it out
@@andrewhuang8024I believe angle limit is 30 degrees
@@andrewhuang8024there is a limit
Very incorrect analysis actually. Wang's serves are very rarely illegal. He gets very close, but he never serves over the table, and his toss is the same as almost every other player at the top level. Look at Dimitrij ovtcharovs toss. As for the toss height, that is a complete nitpick. He definitely tosses it high enough, from an open palm, he is just too graceful for you clowns to realize his hand moves up as the ball leaves his palm, the fall is what really matters. But yes, maybe 1 out of 10 serves he hides behind his body at some point, but the point of contact is always visible. That is the most important part. Bending the rules or sticking very closely to them is not cheating, it is simply gaining an advantage by bending them as much as possible. You all just hate the Chinese I think.
Great to see someone finally make a video to point this out. He should be called out in future tournaments.
I noticed long time ago that he servs over the table most of the times.
Yeah, this is really obvious. I just can't understand how he can get away with that.
I'm not sure they are really over the table, it may just seem so because he leans over the table, but as the throw starts behind the table he would need to throw the ball towards it to contact the ball over the table - I don't think it's the case. The other points are more concerning imo
He doesn't serve over the table.
I only 'noticed' it when people kept talking about it. Without a strict edge-view camera (which sanctioned event protocols about cameras will probably never include), I find the claim an edge-case, unlike his head-hiding where the evidence against him (and by extension against ITTF/WTT) is abundant.
He ALSO hides the ball momentarily behind his hand during the toss by turning his hand upwards in front of the ball just after it leaves his palm. This may be imparting a little bit of back spin which would make the serve illegal. But the fact it hides the ball is unequivocally illegal, and the hiding is clearly visible from the umpire's position so should be called out every single time it's done.
Good idea on the camera replay. Wang’s serves give him a significant advantage, so this is important analysis 👍
My question is why this is allowed by the referee ?
Watch his actual matches, not this biased video. It seems like this was written by chatgpt, very unlike emratthiches old videos. I don't like the direction he is going with his channel, he is now running with conspiracy's and giving out bad information. Wang never serves over the table, and the sideways toss is done by everybody. As for hiding the ball, the point of contact is almost always visible, so it can't really be called out by the opponent or the ref. Don't believe everything you hear on the Internet, alright?
@@bryanwells4063 1. When everybody is doing something wrong (like the sideway toss), it does not make it right.
2. Refer to rule 2.6.4 of the service in ITTF rule book. nowhere does it state that the ball only need to be visible during contact, but during the whole service (the moment it is tossed until it is strucked).
I believe that this isn't at players fault. In my opinion, if referees were more strict about this serves, this wouldn't happen. Although, ultimately, this is ITTF fault for not enforcing this behaviour in referees.
based on referees sitting position, it's hard to detect such fault. We will need to apply technology for that
It's players', coaches', referees' and ITTF's fault. All should abide by the rules.
@@PE-fx4crThink about it like this. If I'm playing by the rules with legal serves but my opponent continues to dish out illegal serves that are hard to read, yet the official is doing nothing about it despite continued protests..... then best believe I'm going to counter with illegal serves of my own. What, am I just going to suck it up and continue to play at an extremely disadvantaged position with a lot of stakes hanging on the line?
You know what they say, "In a city of thieves, an honest person is seen as a fool". Either the ITTF grows a pair and fix their umpire's horrible officiating, or else we'll continue to get people like Wang Chuqin and Anders Lind continue to abuse the rules and illegal serve their way to cheap wins.
@@rooky3526 yeah man, I see your point and it is unfortunate. Although, an honest person should definitely pack his/her bags and move out of the city of thieves 😀. Good thing this stuff is recorded so at least those of us that want the rules to be enforced can at least voice our concerns on SM platforms. Maybe AI scanning software during the games could assist refs and umps with this problem; we will see!
@@PE-fx4cr It just blows my mind how a huge organization like the ITTF can't/refuse to solve such an endemic issue that's been plaguing the pro scene for years.
Ball is not stationary on the open palm at start of service: it's travelling upwards. Also hidden, thrown back and not thrown up 16 cm
Upwards is not the problem. You are allowed to throw upwards, you're not allowed to throw towards yourself, adding spins, hiding ball right at the moment of contact, serving over table, hitting ball on its ascent.
I completely agree, thank you for this great analysis. They did use some TT AI a while back to review shot angles and such, but I think it also calculates angle of throw (30 degrees or under is permissible). I think either they should use that technology (also to call lets) or encourage the refs to actually do something.
This is allowed whereas ding ning serve was objected.
legal servise Ding Ning
...! daripada Wang Chukin yg menyembunyikan bola dibalik kepalanya ! 😓
he broke all the rules about service lol
It is blatantly illegal and Chinese coaches know this and deliberate coach their players for it. It kills the sport. Watch Shidong vs Boll. As soon as Shidong was at risk of loosing his coach told him to go for highly illegal serves. It took more than a set to get him a warning and earned him a lot of points.
Adding a couple of cameras at the net should enable analysis of the serves quickly, e.g. how high the ball is tossed, the throw angle, and if it is blocked by body. Once this is installed, the players will pay more attentions to avoid being penalized for sure.
All these serves are indeed illegal but there's one more question: an umpire cannot sanction a player who doesn't know the rulebook, so does/should WCQ know his serves are illegal or not?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
@@_.Madness._ maybe, but the most scandalous is that all the referees in this video don't sanction him in several major tournaments, including the Singapore Smash
@@fabiendmng2111 Well well, even Ma Long got away with his illegal serves (hiding the ball) for over 2 decades.
A truly impartial and open analysis of Wang's serves. Yes no room for other interpretations as rules are very clear. Need to point out to ITTF umpires whenever he participates 😊😊😊
Umpires: 😴😴
2 yes and 2 no.
The toss height and hiding are definitely problematic. The head and body blocking the view of the ball is sometimes hard to detected by the ref because it is based on the perspective of the opponent. Lefties may able to see the ball unobstructed, while righties will not be able to, most of the time.
The other two are questionable. I don't think he hit the ball on the table. That would not make sense to do so unless you are serving short. It would be a disadvantage when serving long balls as serving on the table means you have less table to work with.
And making such adjustments based on what kind of balls to serve will lower consistency. Even the clips shown on the video I think he is hitting the ball outside of the table.
As for vertical toss, it is also not really correct, as the "near vertical" is measured by the angle of the toss, not the distance travelled. i.e., if the toss is high, the distance covered would be more even the angle is the same. This is a common issue to all players, not just Wang Chuqin.
Yes, ideally the toss should be vertical, but in practice most players, including most top players, are not doing that.
The cleanest player in this regards is Samsonov.
Timo boll
Thank God, someone who can think for themselves. Glad at least one of you exist.
@@bryanwells4063 Thanks , I'm also a coach myself many years ago. So I do study the rules. Cheers
Cameras with HD video analysis like football and basketball.
Rules should be enforced in way such that cheaters have a disadvantage rather than advantage. If that cant be done then modify the rules or remove the rule altogether to level the playing field.
Cameras should be added to check the serves. The same principle applies to the issue of boosting
Definitely need a modification of rules. Rule 2.6.4 as mentioned in this video is complete BS to follow 100% with no flexibility. When a receiver receives the serve, the most crucial point is the contact point, if the serve is not hidden during the contact point, even if it was hidden somewhere during the toss, it should not be illegal.
Especially No. 3 always triggered me. How is it possible that none of the umpires objects?
Because that is completely made up. He never serves inside the line, pause the video at the exact point of contact, not after, and you will see that he never serves over the table.
The problem with his serve is the none vertical "throw". Wich he as you say also should do correctly. Should toss it high enough to reach 16 cm wich it doesnt mostly.
The ball is thrown towards his body wich makes it difficult to not block the vision for the opponent. I hope he corrects this and as well many other players does this weird throw towards the body instead of more vertically.
Отследить высоту 16 см и направление подброса не реально на большинстве соревнований, и законность подачи превратится в способ манипуляции результатом! Проще ввести правило, что подающий должен подбрасывать мяч выше собственной головы при подаче, тогда набросить при подаче не возможно, и закрытие мяча телом теряет смысл, так как ему не придать другого вращения!
They implemented the camera and software analysis system some time ago and it delayed the game so much that they removed it. They should have kept it.
Thanks for this video and comment. I agree . Illegal serves should be called by the umpire. WCQ does gain an advantage.
I think Wang Chuqin's serves are often very close to the baseline, if not over the table. However, the camera angle is unsuitable for a more precise analysis.
The serve is clearly illegal… but some points are questionable… the throw is very difficult to calculate… but it’s always in a “grey zone”. Speaking about the angle of the throw is also difficult to calculate cause the higher the toss is the bigger is the orizontal distance allowed … it’s also difficult to see if he contact the ball inside the table or not… but the point that he hides the ball is clear … the camera is also placed diagonal but if you placed it down the line it’s also impossible to see … I say this cause this often happen in a match between a right handed and a left handed, some serves that are normally visible are difficult to see if the ready position of the player is down the line and not diagonal… the rule of ittf is not complete in my opinion cause if the ball is always visible is a point of view …
The rules state that it's the player's responsibility to serve so that the umpire is _confident_ the serve is legal. In other words, any serve in a "grey zone" should be called as illegal.
In one of the examples he also seems to touch the table with his free hand which is also illegal.
He definitely doesnt
@@bryanwells4063I think you are mistaken, check the serve at 2:30. - 2:31 time.
我认为应该对勾手规则重新拟定，因为勾手的威力来自斜抛球，而规则要求垂直抛球。合规而不合理的规则导致几乎没人遵守这一规则，裁判也无法判罚，因为这将导致无人使用勾手发球。所以应该细化规则，比如不允许斜抛超过30-40度
Die Tischtennis - Regeln lassen als “nahezu senkrecht” eine Abweichung von 30 Grad zu.
why doesn't the ITTF and referees crack down on these illegal serves?
What's fun on following rules?
2.6.4 rule is a joke. Which player actually adhere to that? Men and women? Player of any nation? Go and watch the serves of any player from any country all you'll notice that the ball toss for most of them would be hidden behind the head/face at one point when then ball is falling on the toss. Prime examples are Ma Long, Qiu Dang and Hugo. But even apart from these 3 players, most other players also do it.
I think the bigger issue is whether or not the ball is hidden behind the head or body upon contact. If that's the case, it's definitely illegal. But most players, Wang Chuqin included, the contact of the serve is visible upon contact on all the footage you shown. At least for his pendulum serve. His hook serve arguable, but his pendulum serve is visible. I find it illogical to write a such a strict rule that says ball cannot be blocked the entire serving process when in reality only the contact visibility actually matter and what's more hilarious is neither the players or the umpire gives a damn.
Only Vladimir Samsonov and Timo Boll comes into mind
And what persent of Wang's servers are illegal?
I think not more than others players. And Wang's apponets not puiples in TT, and can to appeal to the referee.
Not called 'big head' for nothing... shielding the ball contact with head and shoulder... ball throw from middle of the table towards his own body/head
most of them r illegal especially due to relative starting position vs the *Right handed players* WCQ tosses the hand high while still holding the ball which has not left his palm & doesnt care of the clear view to RHP, also the ball looks deeply curved inside the body and then gets to dominate the rallies due to the advs taken, but he might be doing this out of habbit and inadvertently which deprive the opponents of fair play
Unmpires r the worst & a bigger problem at that level to not even try to fix it...
Pro Table Tennis Tip: Next time you're on the receiving end, spin around 180°. Instant faults for your opponent!
Absolutely illegal.. period
Correct, very good player with illegal serve used on any part of the game is still a cheater, he better change it or not use it in any part of the game.
To me the toss is legal because the angle not exeeding 35° up to 45° like explained by the Table Tennis serving guy.
However the serve becomes illegal because of him hiding the ball with his body.
The guideline was changed and it now says the ball must rise within a few degrees of the vertical rather than within the angle of 45°.
Yes and within this definition the allowed angle is 35° but the referee might not call you when it's not over 45°. That's how Craig Bryant explained this in one of his latest Videos. You can watch it on his Channel the Table Tennis service guy. It shows you examples of what's okay and what not.
@@Basas.Michael Where is 35° from? I don't see it mentioned anywhere.
Have you watched the Video? It was explained there.
@@Basas.Michael Yes I have, it's 30°, not 35°.
illegal wang , but china is the biggest commercial team
World No.1 cheater. The analysis is completely correct. I have complained about exactly these three points of hos serves for a long time. They should ban his serves during the Olympics.
He's a cheater, not only by using illegal serves but also he won't recognise if the ball of the opponent touches the edge of the table. And also, I remember when he was suspended from CNT when he thrown the racket twice against Zhao Qihao.
He lightly tossed the racket onto the table. I'm sure you never cared when Alexis or Truls chuck their rackets across the room. You probably only care because it's a Chinese player which you view as a "robot", well now that robot has become emotionless and cold, and he's also world number 1 now. What can you say to that? Also look closely, and you will see very few of his serves are actually illegal. Maybe 1 out of 10 or 20. The refs are doing their job correctly, thank you very much.
Firstly, right out of the bat, trajectory of ball is towards him, not ONLY upwards from his hand, which is illegal already. The hidden part is just an add. Referees these days just suck. There's also a german young player who also does this, but worse by adding a spin to ball from hand launching. Absolute trash.
Please I want Turkish translation
create a robot to throw the ball.
When he play with Chinese opponents, It ok for same nation.
But when he play with non Chinese it not fair for other country
Because Chinese player always get in to final round.
I think may be this Olympic match will restrict than WTT match.
Too much pressure on referees, they fear losing friends or there job, I have seen one referee assaulted and slammed to the floor after a match by the player.
A player should be given 3 serve warnings by the referee , no yellow cards no red cards, no punishment by the referee, then the tournament organiser should step in after the match has finished and disqualify the player and send him home.
They need refs at the ends of the table.
I think you provide a good analysis and in general high quality information in your videos. But the videos are always edited pretty bad. Your voice being cut before a sentence ends, sentences being repeated for no reason, weird pauses etc. It feels like AI edited the video (not accusing you, just describing what it feels like)
It does not change the fact that the content itself is good, but the video is sometimes hard to watch.
Thanks anyways.
Definitely illegal. It is sad that the ITTF is allowing it! This goes completely against the spirit of the law and is appalling!
Very illegal
He's very close to illegal serve, but actually not. None of those footage directly show it. When there's eagle eye system out there, catching some actual evidence, maybe you can prove some of his serve illegal.
VAR system hasn't been used since the 2019 ITTF World Tour Finals. Perhaps due to budget constraints or negative feedback from the player. Heck even when the VAR was in placed and it showed the serve was definitely illegal, players still protest.
What do you mean? Did you watch the video?
Simple solution to avoid any argument and to be fair to all players, don't let the player toss the ball, install a robotic arm to drop the ball from a certain height.
first comment
Jesus Christ loves you and died for your sins, everyone sins and deserves hell but Jesus (God) died for our sins paying the price of them, believe that and be Saved
遮你都看不钦楚？
The serve is legal. Has passed the eyes of so many umpires.
The referee needs to call out all wrong serves and give the opponent a point or these illegal serves won't stop.
It's a shame. Look at how close by points Dang Qiu and Wang played. If Wang didn't have his illegal serve then it js very likely that Dang would have taken the match. Dang missed many points on the receive. Really a shame that the World Number 1 is a player with such an illegal serve.
First of all, Wang Chuqin is definitely not the only person who serves with these problems. In fact I would say he is the one who sticks to the rules the closest. He obviously tries to bend them as much as possible, and his serves are always borderline, but that's what gives him the advantage. The only real problem I see with his serve is that SOMETIMES he hides the ball behind his head or body. He never serves over the table, and the sideways toss is done by literally every pro and amateur in the sport. Watch the exact point of contact, it is almost always visible to the opponent, which means the rest doesn't really matter. People just hate on Wang Chuqin because he was a bit immature in his younger years, but nobody says anything about the hotheaded Europeans chucking rackets across the building (I can think of three off the top of my head). Honestly, I think this mostly stems from racism, and people just wanting a reason to take away part of the Chinese advantage, their ability to analyze the rules and gain as much advantage as possible without breaking them.
Of course, it’s 16 centimeters. Don’t believe it? Measure it with a ruler, and you’ll realize that 16 centimeters is actually quite short. Even a casual toss has 16 centimeters.”
16cm is average
That freaking gay flag in the video... puaj!!!
You pick the worse camera angle. Above and behind the other player. If the umpire and the opponent didn't rule his serve illegal, then it isn't. They switch sides as well. The umpire can clearly see WC serve.
I highly doubt you're even a table tennis coach. You take other people's video clips and you put a watermark over it.
If you didn't hear me fart, then I didn't.
Agree, wants to prove the serve is borderline illegal but doesn't show the side view which is the best in proving that. Instead show the 45 degree angle which is impossible to tell. Not to mentioned Fan Zhendong absolutely annihilated these "illegal serves" lmao. You can see Wang Chuqin literally lost the point on serve when FZD flicked it with absolute confidence.
There is 16 cm. You're not a coach.
He absolutely is more of a coach than what you could ever be... There are not 16cms and ball is hidden
Are-you ? 😂
@@philippe8481 yeah. In France and Russia officially. One of my pupils was in TOP-500 even.
@@stankanarsky7080 Oh, Russia, the motherland of fair play. Very impressive.🤣
@@RK-kq2dt what about France?
16 cm is very little. His tosses were at least 22 cm.
after leaving the palm ??
16 cm is less than the length of one's palm.
The point with serving above the table struck me long before this video of him. It gives idd a timing advantage as the ball travels faster to the other side of the table. I t s like serving from the hand to me with the same benefit. I remember one saying as long as it s not meant to be be mean or to chest on purpose, at a certain level you read indicators much faster than no real players. See Lin Shidong, he got caught by the Police the last time I SW him play, making his shovel serv behind the back or partially turning behind his neck/head.
Sry for the mistyped errors. I can't see what I'm writing and can't edit... (cheat/normal...)
@@007fRAGMa He doesn't serve above the table.