I think that fighting games are inherently unpopular because people don't want to blame themselves for their mistakes and you have to do that in non-team games.
yeah that's definitely part of it and i adressed it briefly, but it was never trying to appeal to that crowd of people anyways although 2xko might change that trend
I hate that mindset. If that were really the case, then souls games would all be dead. I can't claim to fully understand the issue, but I think it's more to do with the hyper competitiveness of fighting games. It's almost impossible to enjoy fighting games casually, so people would rather play single player games with no competitiveness or team games where you can goof off with teammates instead of constantly competing with every other player
@@olianims i think the nature of a pvp game brings forth a lot more pressure on the mental state of the player compare to single player games for sure and the difficulty of a game adds to the frustration
If that were true, arena shooters would not have been as popular in the early to mid-2000s. I think fighting games are not as unpopular as people claim them to be. Sure, they're not as big as Fortnite or League of Legends, but I don't understand why people would expect them to be. Games of that size come out maybe once in a blue moon. Perhaps fighting games are just not in the current zeitgeist.
"Safejumping requires you to input an attack at the very last frame of the jump." No they don't. Unless the attack itself is changing the speed of your jump, all that matters is the timing of when you jump. Things like airdashes add wrinkles to that, but even then there'd be framekill setups to make the safejump practical and replicable. The whole thing about a hard knockdown is that it's literally the least chaotic situation you could be in, since your opponent's options are the most limited. As for the motion input issue, I do think it's an inch high wall that people tell themselves is unclimbable. But also, back in the day motion inputs weren't all that unocommon in a lot of games besides fighters. It wasn't unusual for a beat 'em up or other action game to have a few motion inputs. Beyond Oasis, a Zelda-like RPG on the Sega Genesis, had a special move that required a 360 into a f,b,f motion and could be done in any of the 4 cardinal directions. Motion inputs now are almost solely found in fighting games, whereas back in the day they were often found in games of other genres which created a base level of familiarity with them. It wasn't really that long ago that people considered the twin stick layout, movement with the left analog stick, camera with the right, as being cumbersome and complex to control due to unfamiliarity, yet now it's basically an industry-wide standard. How many games used to come out with a fixed camera the player had no control of? The reason for that was because the devs thought it was too difficult to play the game and control the camera at the same time. Nobody now would consider it a barrier to entry, simply because even if a completely raw beginner might have trouble with it at first, their experience translates to practically every other game they play.
Idk, I realize you'd still be safe if you jump and don't attack due to the timing. But the whole nuance of what a safe jump is is that you hit them if they block. So while you describe a jump that is safe, I feel like the os safe jump does include an attack. Happy to be shown to be wrong, just having a fun discussion. Edit - this would be similar to how we have a name for empty jump, even tho that's just a jump. Maybe we would call one without an attack an empty safe jump. Also after checking the fgc glossary defines safe jump as including an attack.
Watching you do safe jumps instead of using heavy disk is one of the most infurating things i have seen. Canceling into heavy disk is easier has safer than a safe jump and gives more reward You can make an argument for it is difficult to know what you should do and what is good in fighting games but making an argument that fighting games are too hard and using an example with an easier and better option makes me want to bash my head into a wall
I get where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree with a majority of what you discussed here. 1: I was a Millia main in Strive and I made it to celestial like 2 or 3 times the first few months of the game being out. I only stopped playing because Strive itself is a game that doesn't appeal to me. This coming from a God Of Destruction Rank Fighterz player as well. (I understand ranked is not necessarily an indicator of skill, but time and effort put into a game) The safe jump you showed here is also well... not the best. Especially in the current season. 2: It makes no sense what so ever to get discouraged when you fight a more experienced player and they wash you. They're supposed to. Making fighting games SO EASY that you have a chance to take down someone who's been playing for years would be an insult to their skill. 3: You're either a casual or a competitive player. You can't be casual and request the benefits of being competitive. If I play basketball casually with my friends at the park, I can't turn around and request the NBA to lower the skill ceiling for new players. And saying they're "gatekeepers" for not lowering the difficulty to play for a big league would be incredibly entitled. 4: Wanting to defend motion inputs existing in fighting games isn't "gatekeeping". It's a piece of the identity of fighting games since the first fighting game ever. The FGC isn't a bunch of bullies. I think it's important to consider our perspective as competitors as well. 5: Complex mechanics and nuance are what make fighting games fun. It's what makes someone choose between DBFZ or Skull Girls. Or Under Night In-birth or MeltyBlood Type Lumina or Current Code. 6: Anytime you ever want to be good at anything, you have to study and learn about that thing. Fighting against that concept is to fight against the concept of improvement in favor of coddling.
Also you... you played Millia in Strive and suffered... this is the Millia experience 😭😭😭 Some characters will be harder to start out with than others for multiple factors. She dies if a character looks at her too hard because her mixup potential is insane. She's a glass cannon character like Chipp or Seth from undernight or Jubei from Blazblue. Being a fragile is the trade off you accept when you play a glass cannon.
@thatguy8841 it's fine if he doesn't want to. As much as I dissagree with pretty much this entire video as a competitor, I'm not here to antagonize. Just criticize.
that is definitely a factor but aim assist is actually insane for console shooters, the entire genre basically holds your hand and plays for you when you start out making the skill floor non existent
@@volktol4432 Aiming on a mouse might be easier, but that also massively raises the skill ceiling for aiming. That's why, as far as I am aware, there are no competitive FPS that are played on a controller.
I get that the title is clickbait but I can't bother to finish the video and in like 4 minutes I am already rolling my eyes. Nothing personal, man, but you are just wrong, like many people are when they are new to something. I appreciate you voicing your opinions in a well behaved manner unlike what you usually see in most online platforms (twitter and fb videos especially suck), but holy shit. This is like a guy going to the IBJJF after doing 2 experimental classes of jiu jitsu and being like "look, this sport sucks ass, and if you want more people to enjoy it, here's how to do it:" The first thing most people on your side comment and for some God forsaken reason nobody on my side comments is that the FGC does not need to grow. I swear some fuckin CEO implanted this idea into people's heads and the psyop got out of control. The FGC barely saw any growth for over 20 years. SF4 was the beginning of a comeback, sure, but it was games like DBFZ that began really bringing completely new players to the FGC, and you know what? Those years were fine. I'd easily take fewer games that are actually made for people like me, that enjoy the unique challenge that fighting games have, than having a dozen games, all of which I have to make compromises with myself to enjoy. Most people that demand for this aren't even that interested in fighting games. How much did people stick with DNF Duel? That game has easy controls! There are also a lot of things that other people already brought up that explain why you are wrong, but THE thing I hear parroted the most is about execution. As someone else said, motion inputs are an "inch high wall that people tell themselves is unclimbable". This is not gatekeeping, if you want to enter a community, you can't come in demanding things to change just to cater to you. Even if the people that say they would play fighting games if they had no motion inputs outnumber people who actually play them 10 to 1, that doesn't change things, as I said before, the FGC does not need any of you. Also, this is just my experience, but like none of the people I've interacted with who said this type of stuff don't play Grandblue, DNF, SF6... or really any game that offers easier controls. The only friends I've had that became part of the FGC, did it in games with motion inputs.
I don't think that fighting games are nearly as hard to get into as people say, even the older or more technical games have ways to learn them. But, the common factor all of these fighting games have modern or old, is that you will need to learn at some point what it feels like to get your ass kicked. IMO it is a reality of this genre and if you can't take that then I don't know what to tell you, it's a skill based genre. These attempts to make the games more accessible are all bullshit in my eyes, because the games will never appeal to everyone, and trying to make them that way is only hurting their longevity, The reason why MVC2 is still active 20 years later and SFV isn't only 9 years later is because MVC2 has all the jank, difficult stuff, SFV is a corporate product made to appeal to as many people as possible. Fighting games are a hobby genre, and if you don't want to make a fighting game your hobby then you're not going to have fun playing against people who have made it their hobby, no shit. It's like walking up to a piano and getting frustrated because it's too difficult, then demanding the people who made it cater to your lack of skill, and give you built in tutorials with it, its skill ceiling is far too high to comprehensively teach without hours of explanation. But that leads me into my second point, fighting games aren't even THAT hard to get into. I've met literal 13 year olds, and 16 year olds in this genre doing the highest execution stuff there is in these games. I've met people in their 20s, in fucking med school who got really good in like 1 year, because they practiced. It's all about your perspective, and work ethic.
Everyone here has already made the big arguments, I will just put it this way: Fighting games are virtual martial arts. You need commitment to be good at martial arts. And you can have fun making martial arts your hobbie. Also, I've seen a dog throw an EX hadowken.
I disagree with a couple of points. The comparison between fighting games and fps games especially. You may not need to make multiple descions in a split second in fps' but you need to be really fast in your decision or you're dead. I also disagree about needing all of that game knowledge to enjoy the game. You were Floor 10 in Strive so you needed safe jumps and maybe frame data. I however have been at floor 6-8 since release and can tell you all I need to know to have a decent match is a BnB and blocking. The average player may have issues controling thier character but they always learn an easy 2 button combo or limit themselves to a special before trying other moves. Baby steps Thanks for the video tho. It was good to see a different perspective.
fair points, you can have fun at any skill level for sure and slowly develop skills at your pace, but i just worry that small population games ween out the beginner skill bracket too early like in the past
Most of your arguments seem to be based on things that just aren't even true. It sounds as if you learn exclusively from copying what other people think is best, and that isn't necessary. I play Potemkin, and I do well and have lots of fun in 10F without knowing some of the "core" potemkin strats like kara canceling, and it's because I'm just really smart and have a whacky playstyle (I love eating glue). For example, you made it sound like Millia just loses to wakeup DP if you don't safe jump. But that isn't even remotely true. Every single character in Strive can punish a wakeup DP with their very best combo with the single easiest technique in the game: blocking. Block the DP. it's super minus, so you can punish however you want. The difficulty of learning a safe jump isn't a barrier blocking you from the skill floor. It's a challenge you can choose to approach for one extra option if you want it.
16:20 isn’t this part of the fun? Like the fact that every match isn’t just a training mode simulator, and that you actually have to gain an advantage within rps situations. The high-stakes of fighting games and having to rps better than the opponent is where my fun comes from. Pulling off a high execution combo is cool the first 3 times but outplaying someone that has had you on the ropes never gets old. Also Mk has motion inputs. Also needing those high execution combos that are super optimal are a thing of the past. Unless you plan on playing at the top level, you only need a basic BnB in most fighters. Neutral and basic movement will take you so much more further than doing frame perfect links with pretzel motions, especially in games that have added auto-combos/modern controls. Using Baiken as an argument for high execution isn’t that good. Instant air dash tatami isn’t necessary since it’s an Oki tool * safe movement tool. If you’ve knocked down your opponent you can achieve a similar result with Tatami YRC. The advanced tutorial in Xrd teaches you that. Also trying to play a game as old as Xrd today is already an uphill battle since most players have been playing for almost 10 years now. It’s extremely tough to learn any fighting game (even simple games like DNF Duel) 3 years after initial release, but rewarding people by having them learn a lot naturally is a good way to keep longevity in the game. And finally fighting games aren’t solitary at all. People should join their local FGC even if it’s just their discord server. My “local” is such an accepting community in which we teach and learn from each other, I’ve had pro players that win the highest competitions help me out for free when asking about situations. The FGC is the best way to learn since you’re able to learn from mistakes at the moment since most players will explain what’s going on and how to beat it.
a lot of the "difficulties" i pointed out are definitely the fun part for a lot of people and getting good is obviously part of the appeal of the genre. but difficulty+seeking out community help to learn the games can be too big of a hurdle and there can be design decisions made to accommodate for more players
@@piercemchugh4509he used a lot of niche terms, here’s the simplified version (and one that would work perfectly fine): Isn’t mental stack part of the fun? (Mental stack is basically when you need to think of a bunch of things at once, which leads to things that shouldn’t work in theory to actually work on you due to you using your brain power on other stuff) Every match isn’t just all theory, you need to put your opponent into bad situations. Doing rlly hard combos is cool and all but that gets old, but adapting to and outplaying your opponent always feels cool. Also, requiring super hard combos are not rly a thing now. Unless you wanna be playing at the highest level (pro tournament level), basic combos work fine, as doing the fundamentals well will always be better than doing more damage in a combo. Techniques like what the guy in the video said that require you to summon a demon with your hands are also only rlly needed at pro level, where every little thing matters. Finally, fighting games don’t need to be played without outside help, there’s lots of discord servers and stuff that are glad to help you out!
Also, every game has its terms that would sound alien. Think of backdooring, yanking, circle strafing, etc. These sound normal and easy to the average FPS player, but for a complete beginner, with no context these words may as well be gibberish. It’s up to the community and gamedevs to teach the newbies
I actually think weirdly enough that Guilty Gear Strive is much more approachable for new players that most would think. I don't really play fighting games but I picked it up because it looked cool and because of the way the game plays and the mechanics like the counter system. I learned how to play pretty fast due to how I was being punished for being too aggressive and then began playing more defensively, and then I started actually winning - I think that people fall out with fighting games is that they don't get to this stage and have this idea of hyper aggression == skill, when if anything that's just going to be exploited by any player with any proper experience.
strive is a great beginner game for sure, i made the game sound harder than it is but thats only through the lens of some of the low tiers but over all its a great game to introduce people to anime fighters
This video reads like you got banned from a sajam or majinobama discord for asking for tips too many times on how to nail electrics when people keep posting clips of you failing to hold neutral and antiairs. I was going to leave it at "hey I disagree with some of this stuff, agree with others" but you unfortunately have the virus of insufferable twitter fgc-type that knows certain esoteric knowledge but can't consistently bring that know how to a match because you got too far into gold or platinum without learning fundamentals. Your kinda everything that's wrong with new fgc and it's *technically* not your fault. Stop crying and git gud, though.
16:04 I'd say the mental stack is the fun of fighting games. Being aware of your options, what ypur opponent is doing, the little habits that you have and that they have and playing around them makes fighting games a really intimate genre to play. Its not something thats going to appeal to everyone sinve that sort of pressure can be quite stressful for some, but thats the thing, fighting games don't need to appeal to everyone. Accessibility is a fair point to make, and I'll always advocate for an easier time for people to get into it, but this sort of thing just comes with the territory of playing a fighting game I'd say. Still though, I do appreciate the perspective you're bringing to this conversation, made for an interesting video
hey thanks! but yeah i wasnt neccesarily saying all the hard aspects are objectively bad, just giving a bit of perspective on how new players can be challenged by things that experienced players dont really think about anymore
I'm sorry but this is a terrible series of concepts. You and no one else is a victim. Every popular game is mostly head-empty on the ground floor and that's the reason a lot of AAA games are easily dropped and swapped between. No one is as passionate about their hobby as the FGC but you're not willing to see that bc you're too busy blaming the genre. It certainly needs growth but games like Tekken 8, Street Fighter 6, MultiVersus, etc have modes other than VS and extensive learning tools in-client. People want to WIN but they lack the humility to learn without a bruised ego and I think that's sad. It's okay to lose because learning is not congruent with winning. People play fighting games to grow as people and gamers. They WANT the challenge and to learn. If someone said they were taking martial arts they'd have to learn how to fight. This is no different.
I think people forget that part of the reason the execution is hard is that it allows a strong player and a weak player to be distinct. Without direct changes to any character, a guy who's played say, Carl Clover from BB for one hour and the guy who's been maining him since CT is immediate and distinct. A player with more skill will get more value off the same opportunity or starter, and that's amazing. It rewards time investment and creates a sense of accomplishment. Without that, the theoretical difference between a new player and an old player is shortened, and the awe of high level play is gutted.
yeah fighting games are harder to get into but ones your in and past the barrier of not being able to do simple command inputs you start to improve a lot i used to dislike fighting games up to a few years ago but now i can pretty much enjoy almost any it does help having a group of friends near your level to play and improve with its some of the most fun you can have with them also i would say try to to spend a lot of time in the training room i pretty much only use it to check command inputs for a new character i want to learn then learn in matches against people its for fun that way
gatling is a mechanic where you can press normal attacks in a sequence to do a basic combo, it makes it easier to convert smaller hits into longer strings/hard knock downs
Tekken knowledge checks are unique in that they add nothing to the game in terms of depth. You learn all 5000 strings and end up at a level when less than 10% of the strings are actually relevant
Its a potential design issue for sure but thats just what tekken's identity is i guess. it is kind of funny to see how easy it is to abuse jun's stance mix at low to intermediate level, but at pro level her stance kills her if blocked
I'm one of those People who enjoys Motion Inputs. It's my favorite aspect about 2D Fighting Games. It if does not have any or enough, I literally will not play it. So if they got rid of Motion Inputs, I'm fucking done with Fighting Games. Well at least the future ones. As soon as I found out 2XKO & HunterXHunter did not have Motion Inputs, I lost all the interest for them.
In the words of Kore-a gaming, if you remove the inputs you change the game, I'm all for new games exploring new ways for inputs but legacy series lose their identity when you simplify them too much. Inputs are just another spice in the rack of the fighting game gameplay, just because you find the journey as an inconvinience doesn't mean there aren't players out there that find that journey fun and satisfying.
I agree with some parts and disagree with others, but I appreciate the mention of Brawlhalla and the acknowledgement of how the issue isn't just about one thing. Also MVCI apologists need to stick together.
titanfall 2 didn't die EA killed it they legit released it between the 2 major shooters of all time battlefield 1 and call of duty ,, EA knew what they were doing
think the fgs have 5 main problems that if fixed can make everyone happy: 1: Hiding important information This is a problem because fgs have way too much going offscreen. A basic fg will show you only the combo, counter, recovery and one or two system mechanics. (Sf only shows when the combo ends and Tekken doesnt even show counters) When important stuff like incorrect block, punish, chance to escape, plus or minus have 0 way to know if you dont read it somewhere (because even the own game wont tell you). How to fix: simply make like Dual Souls (goated game) and show it 2: Bad movement Walking is kinda sluggish, jump is unsetting and poor explored. Crouch doenst let evade any move. Also in some games you cant even air block! Is kinda hard to explain that for someone who doesnt play fgs. How to fix: Honestely i dont have many ideas, but making air block a standard, allow crouching low profile more standing moves, allow to change your jump direction more like a platformer would be a good start. 3: Confusing animations A lot of moves make no sense. Like a kick that hit your feet hits mid (looking at you Valentine) , and the most overheading thing hitting mid too (looking at you Chipp and Sol from ggac). Not only that, but a Anti Air uppercut, a crouching punch that would be reasonable hitting mid hits low for no reason (looking at every under Night character). Combined with the problems above and below kinda kills the quality. How to fix: Simply make them making sense. And if its too broken make it a littler weaker too. 4: Unbalance between high/low blocking Ok, having 2 types of blocking is kinda bad by itself, but the advantages of one ridiculously outweigh the other. If you stand block you can protect yourself of moves that hit your head a torso but leaves your legs unprotected, and if you crouch block you can protect your torso and legs at the cost of having your head exposed. This sounds balanced on paper, but there are much more low moves than high moves, and most of them dont hit crouching characters. Well, they cant block an air attack so just need to jump and hit them, right? No, because the moment you leave the floor you cant do nothing untill you reach a range that will make every move miss. On top of that lows can be 2 frames while the fastest overhead is 18 frames (makes a huge difference), meaning that you cant punish them safely even if youre plus. A the end this makes the genre very annoying and the pros will take a giant advantage of the begginers because most of them block high. How to fix: Might seem crazy, but i suggest 1 lows should be as fast as an overhead. 2 you should be able to do air attacks faster 5: Punishment for anything You die because you moved foward instead of blocking, then you die because you blocked but got punished. So you jump and die because of that, then attack with a very safe move but you die because of that too. How to fix: I have no idea, honestly 😔
I pretty much agreed with everything you said, and it's one of the biggest reasons I don't play fighting games anymore despite loving them my whole life. One thing I was thinking the whole time, especially when you mentioned difficulty of execution in other genres, was metroidvanias. they've been trending toward more complexity and difficulty, but they have a low skill floor, making them pretty accessible for a beginner. At the beginning of those games movement is no more complicated than Mario. But at the end, oh boy. I love Hollow Knight to death but I'll never beat the last pantheon 🤷♀️
Seems this outdated thinking still persists in FGC even today. The truth is these are planned years ago in Fighting game Round Table, July 2020. Weeks before Guilty Gear Strive released. What discussed on this video already been done already, like easy execution and low barrier of entry. The FGC just refuse to listen at that time like Maximilian Dood. I still remember him being anti accessibility. Made a video titled "Stop Nerfing Fighting Games. In the end he accepted the changes in the genre because it works
I also have points id like to say. Ive been in the fgc about 2-4 years now. Its hard to say when i started havent really kept track. I havent done many tourneys one in fact recently. Where im going with is this. I started my journey to become good and be like the pros the people i looked up. My best friend who taught me fighting games. Daigo justin wong and hell even taco recently (best ts im america represent) i wanted to play them and beat them or lose to them as a equal. I started the hard way learning motions learning execution. And it carried over to dnf duel a simpler game i will admit im not amazing at that game but i have gone toe to toe with better players. Sf6 i didnt do simple because i prefer implementing what i learned and what i carried over in my training. SFV was my first serious game. My point here is this its okay to have simple inputs i personally dont like losing to them. Cause it feels like the work i did is invalidated as opposed to the practice they put in with a easier skill ceiling. I think fighting games should cater to everyone. Dont like complicated combos roman cancels and safe jumps. Play DNF duel it balances the difficulty of using full inputs and encouraging the newer players to transition to the harder ones once they are comfortable for the greater reward. Sf6 does that great too. However i feel like there shouldnt be a choice online. You want complex you get complex. Have the classics fight the classics and modern vs modern. And once your confident try your hand at classic. Sorry for being long winded. Im intermediate at best in fighting games im no pro but i wanted to say my piece.
theres definitely some growing pains with the prominence of simple modes, i dont play games where simple mode is viable but personally i think its ok since a good classic player should beat an equal skill modern player 9/10 times
I didn't play Baiken in Xrd. Can anyone else confirm that that IAD Tatami tech is basically required to win? I played Slayer and could barely BDC, an advance mechanic that's pretty necessary at high levels. I didn't do it often, but I was still able to enjoy the game online. I do agree with the idea that for every character, there should be a low enough skill floor for someone new to just run a basic gameplan with intention that looks and feels cool to the casual observer. But does that not already exist? Can a complete noob not pick up Zato and do basic no-Eddie stuff? I think the solution to this is not to simplify Zato or take away his negative edge stuff or whatever, but to make it so noobs can compete with their equals without first getting bodied. SF6 does this well, I think. You're asked what your experience level is before you fight anyone. That way, a newcomer can pick up whichever character they think is cool, no matter how difficult, and probably have a fighting chance during their very first online match.
of course depending on the skill level of your opponents, you dont need all of a character's tools to win, and like i said not knowing how to pilot a characters entire moveset is fine if there is a skill bracket that lets you compete with your limited knowledge of the character. the issue is that low population games lose those skill brackets too quickly
People normally like to play with friends or teammates, which is why the games that are popular are so popular now. I know some people pick a specific fighting game that they enjoy and stick with it instead of buying the newest fighters that drop. I feel like that's more of a streamer thing, and an unproductive hobby if you aren't getting paid to invest time into it. So you end up spending so much time to 1v1 people instead of getting that dose of interacting with others (Only one person can win in a game genere noone cares if you're good at). If I want to play a game that's multiplayer, it's going to be team-based; if not, there's a lot of single-players out there that give enjoyment. People love Siege even if you have to learn the map. People are addicted to League for some reason, but considering how Baldur's Gate brought so many people over into CRPGs, people aren't mechanically challenged; people want fun in ways a 2d fighting game cant really improve on.
I think the issue is people don’t understand that fighting games are glorified rhythm games at their core. From learning motion inputs, to developing muscle memory, to understanding and playing on momentum in a match. I just don’t think people are keen to try yo simplify fighting games to such an extent. Every match, every opponent, every combo even is just a different version of the same song.
Cant this be said about any genre of anything? Of course you don't know anything you are new. If you having fun relies on beating other people then you have to put the time and effort in. If you don't want to put time and effort in learning or improving then thats not the game's fault its your own. I also think the "Homework" of fighting games are overblown. You dont need to learn that crazy mix-up and for most casual players all you need is a basic BnB and a reliable anti air. However getting good at something takes time and effort, we have done this with every game and will do it forever. DMC is a game that a casual player can pick up and play but, you don't ask the game to give you SSS rank for playing, you earn it by doing Smoking Sexy Style combos which take time and effort to execute. No one is gatekeeping anything all fighting game players want is for their skill to mean something. No you shouldn't win against Apologyman or Sonicfox or Punk. Thats like asking Basketball to make it easier for you to win against Lebron James. They have put time and effort into the craft. My biggest problem with fighting games is that the information you need to get better is often times not told to you or you have to look up guides on RUclips instead of just learning it in game. I also think tekken 8 is a bad example because the reason why you have arguably more knowledge checks in that game plus the aggressive mechanics that force you into 50/50s was for casual players anyway most of these new fighting games have been catered to casuals in many ways so i guess i just want to ask you a question. What do you think fighting games should do to appeal to casuals without taking away the fundamentals of what makes a fighting game work? Should we erase frame data? Should we make fighting games play themselves? Should we make it to where the skill floor and skill ceiling are so close together that grinding matchups and learning mechanics doesn't matter? Not coming for you or anything just genuinely want to hear what your solutions you have for the "problems" you think exist. Im not done with the video just wanted to chime in and you have earned a sub from me keep up the great work 👍🏿
Idk about the apex thing i quit apex because I couldn't understand what good or bad positioning was. Id constantly lose fire fights and no matter how many times i went to the range and practice my aim i couldn't hit anything in a real match. Apex is hella fast when a fight stars unless you rat. And sitting behind cover against an aggressive team ends up getting me killed, if i try to run away and change my position it gets me killed, if i try to fight them head on it gets me killed and armor swapping isnt something im good at. In R6 you die so fast from someone peeking a corner i have no idea what happened and have to watch the replay to even see who shot me. And i feel like Apex and R6 is much harder to wrap my brain around than a fighting game. And comparing the skill floor of fps games to the skill ceiling in fighting games isnt a fair comparison. Just jump in a match and press buttons thats how easy it is to get into fighting games to me honestly. There is a video by Sajam i think you should watch its an interesting discussion on this topic as well sorry for another comment.
thanks for the thoughts! in terms of solutions i think a lot of games are making very good attempts and have been designing their games to be much more easy to have fun in at a casual level even if people can argue that they suffer a bit competitively. i don't have answers perse to address every facet of difficulty, but mechanics like tekken's heat does a ton for the low skill experience by giving players a powerful one button tool that has both defensive and offensive utility
I used to love fighting games, back when I was a teenager and would play against my friends, in-person. But now? I don't live near any of my friends. And my Internet isn't great, so playing online games just isn't something I want to do. Maybe if the fighting games coming out had more single-player content I'd still be interested, but every game that comes out seems to have *less* content that older games. My favorite fighting game used to be Soul Calibur, and SC3 was amazing. But every SC game after that has had dumbed down combat, had less characters and fighting styles, and less single-player content, plus a bunch of DLC nonsense in the latest game. I am not a competitive player. I don't care about playing online. I am not the target audience for these fighting games, and that's okay. I don't need them to change to become easier. The only thing that would make me interested is something most of these developers have no interest in doing, which is putting in enough single-player content to justify the price tag.
single player content is a worthwhile discussion for sure, for what its worth sf6 tried to do something different with its pve hub system and tekken 8 has that weird avatar mode. but yeah i havent heard of any games that made a splash single player wise outside of the cinematic netherealm games, smash, or blazblue
some games have extremely harsh combo scaling both damage wise and hit stun wise so the concept definitely exists, you just gotta find the right game that isn't built around 1-2 touch kills although it does feel like a lot of the current games kill you in 2 optimized touches
@@Jaynesslessly Ah, yes damage scaling is nice. I would love fighting games to be more about strategy and reaction and less about who can perfect the longest combos.
I love Capcom. I love Marvel. I don't play MvC 3 because I get Omega Whooped before I can land a hit. The skill gap is too high. I can't nor do I have the time to study and practice the game to the extent that professionals do.
yeah the game is extremely punishing, still fun if you can find a buddy to mess around with tho but yeah getting into it semi seriously as a casual player is a tall task
The first thing i think of when i hear this is true casuals truly dont matter in fighting games. The super casuals who will button mash whether the game has simple inputs or classic inputs. The game should cater to the group that noone ever mentions.... intermediate players. Also fighting games arent really difficult, they just take more effort than nearly every other genre of game that tends to be more focused on fun and visuals rather than practice. Its like saying going to a fireworks show is more entertaining than spending the afternoon taking your first steps to learning the piano. Yeah its gonna be more challenging to break that barrier but theres something far better on the other side. My big issue with catering to super casuals is that whole thing gets taken away. Between the internet hyper sharing info and games losing depth by lowering the ceiling of games instead of just the floor things get really stale and solved really fast these days. You can say what you like about more difficult games but Marvel 3 and smash melee are going to long outlive sf6 and dbf Quote me on this in 20 years youtube
I genuinely think people underestimate the power that simple input specials have for a casual player. I have a friend who I've gotten to try a few fighting games, and the ones that stuck the most were, big shock, granblue and dnf. I bet if she'd try sf6 she'd enjoy modern controls, I doubt I'll be able to get her to pay another 60$ for game she might not like. It isn't a very complex idea tbh, like if you see a character with a big gun, or a flaming sword, or someone named "grappler" and you can't do the thing that is most obviously cool about them you just aren't going to click. Without spd gief is just a big dude who pokes you and has a bunch of slow attacks that get you punished.
I don’t think you need to practice that much to learn. I was able to learn electrics in a couple weeks by just doing 5 a day until I got more consistent. I’m obviously not getting them every time but I can get them enough to effectively play a Mishima. I think people just don’t like putting effort into new things and stepping out of their comfort zones
honestly weeks of daily electrics sounds like a commitment most people can't pull off. i think its commendable you had a successful routine that worked for you and achieved your goal but most people would give up after 15 minutes of trying i think
I just want fighting games to have a cod style progression system. I want to unlock stuff. Skins, taunts, badges, tracks. Mostly i want team games to have coop play. It seem so stupid none of them have not even in a offline environment.
So, I'm an old head who started with alpha2 and vsav. So you know my bias up front. My favorite fighting game is granblue fantasy versus rising. That game has radically simplified control. The 1button special moves are the defacto way to play the game. The game has giant buffer windows. Combos are simple. With every character having a max of 4 moves there is not much homework to worry about. And to boot granblue is a popular franchise with recognizable characters. And yet it struggles to catch up to the numbers of more complicated fighting games. I believe that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about why people play fighting games. Smash ultimate and street fighter 5 a tought us a very important lesson. No body cares about a game where casual players can do all the same things a Pro can do. Streetfighter 6 increased the execution needed compared to 5. So I can't help but feel frustrated that my favorite game, that had everything you are asking for, goes completely ignored by the general public. Oh and I have traveled to play mvci and done well in competition. that game is fucking ass.
i feel similarly about DNF duel tbh since i love the source material and its literally based on the most profitable MMO in the world. i think the nature of these adaptation games is that they mostly appeal to fans of the source material and they'd rather just play the original games unfortunately also mvci mightve been ass, but it died before it could develop into more. disney bought xmen back literal months after canning support for the game. its just tragic to me that mvc went out on a whimper
@@Jaynesslessly lack of x-men was whatever. Honestly, mvci was so toxic. At a casual lv super into tag made playing lower skilled players un fun for both offense and defense, it only costed 1 bar. At a higher lv you get dormanu carpet loops and if you block that you still have to block lv 1 super tag. And let's not forget the box. Never played dnfd, so can't comment. I don't have any answers. What I do know is what you ask for has been tried and not worked. So I've accepted that fighting games will be niche. I can only hope and pray that I'm proven wrong.
I think that fighting games are inherently unpopular because people don't want to blame themselves for their mistakes and you have to do that in non-team games.
yeah that's definitely part of it and i adressed it briefly, but it was never trying to appeal to that crowd of people anyways although 2xko might change that trend
I hate that mindset. If that were really the case, then souls games would all be dead. I can't claim to fully understand the issue, but I think it's more to do with the hyper competitiveness of fighting games. It's almost impossible to enjoy fighting games casually, so people would rather play single player games with no competitiveness or team games where you can goof off with teammates instead of constantly competing with every other player
@@olianims i think the nature of a pvp game brings forth a lot more pressure on the mental state of the player compare to single player games for sure and the difficulty of a game adds to the frustration
If that were true, arena shooters would not have been as popular in the early to mid-2000s. I think fighting games are not as unpopular as people claim them to be. Sure, they're not as big as Fortnite or League of Legends, but I don't understand why people would expect them to be. Games of that size come out maybe once in a blue moon. Perhaps fighting games are just not in the current zeitgeist.
"Safejumping requires you to input an attack at the very last frame of the jump."
No they don't. Unless the attack itself is changing the speed of your jump, all that matters is the timing of when you jump. Things like airdashes add wrinkles to that, but even then there'd be framekill setups to make the safejump practical and replicable.
The whole thing about a hard knockdown is that it's literally the least chaotic situation you could be in, since your opponent's options are the most limited.
As for the motion input issue, I do think it's an inch high wall that people tell themselves is unclimbable. But also, back in the day motion inputs weren't all that unocommon in a lot of games besides fighters. It wasn't unusual for a beat 'em up or other action game to have a few motion inputs. Beyond Oasis, a Zelda-like RPG on the Sega Genesis, had a special move that required a 360 into a f,b,f motion and could be done in any of the 4 cardinal directions. Motion inputs now are almost solely found in fighting games, whereas back in the day they were often found in games of other genres which created a base level of familiarity with them.
It wasn't really that long ago that people considered the twin stick layout, movement with the left analog stick, camera with the right, as being cumbersome and complex to control due to unfamiliarity, yet now it's basically an industry-wide standard. How many games used to come out with a fixed camera the player had no control of? The reason for that was because the devs thought it was too difficult to play the game and control the camera at the same time. Nobody now would consider it a barrier to entry, simply because even if a completely raw beginner might have trouble with it at first, their experience translates to practically every other game they play.
Idk, I realize you'd still be safe if you jump and don't attack due to the timing. But the whole nuance of what a safe jump is is that you hit them if they block. So while you describe a jump that is safe, I feel like the os safe jump does include an attack. Happy to be shown to be wrong, just having a fun discussion.
Edit - this would be similar to how we have a name for empty jump, even tho that's just a jump. Maybe we would call one without an attack an empty safe jump.
Also after checking the fgc glossary defines safe jump as including an attack.
Watching you do safe jumps instead of using heavy disk is one of the most infurating things i have seen.
Canceling into heavy disk is easier has safer than a safe jump and gives more reward
You can make an argument for it is difficult to know what you should do and what is good in fighting games
but making an argument that fighting games are too hard and using an example with an easier and better option makes me want to bash my head into a wall
I get where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree with a majority of what you discussed here.
1: I was a Millia main in Strive and I made it to celestial like 2 or 3 times the first few months of the game being out. I only stopped playing because Strive itself is a game that doesn't appeal to me. This coming from a God Of Destruction Rank Fighterz player as well. (I understand ranked is not necessarily an indicator of skill, but time and effort put into a game) The safe jump you showed here is also well... not the best. Especially in the current season.
2: It makes no sense what so ever to get discouraged when you fight a more experienced player and they wash you. They're supposed to. Making fighting games SO EASY that you have a chance to take down someone who's been playing for years would be an insult to their skill.
3: You're either a casual or a competitive player. You can't be casual and request the benefits of being competitive. If I play basketball casually with my friends at the park, I can't turn around and request the NBA to lower the skill ceiling for new players. And saying they're "gatekeepers" for not lowering the difficulty to play for a big league would be incredibly entitled.
4: Wanting to defend motion inputs existing in fighting games isn't "gatekeeping". It's a piece of the identity of fighting games since the first fighting game ever. The FGC isn't a bunch of bullies. I think it's important to consider our perspective as competitors as well.
5: Complex mechanics and nuance are what make fighting games fun. It's what makes someone choose between DBFZ or Skull Girls. Or Under Night In-birth or MeltyBlood Type Lumina or Current Code.
6: Anytime you ever want to be good at anything, you have to study and learn about that thing. Fighting against that concept is to fight against the concept of improvement in favor of coddling.
Also you... you played Millia in Strive and suffered... this is the Millia experience 😭😭😭
Some characters will be harder to start out with than others for multiple factors.
She dies if a character looks at her too hard because her mixup potential is insane. She's a glass cannon character like Chipp or Seth from undernight or Jubei from Blazblue.
Being a fragile is the trade off you accept when you play a glass cannon.
🤓
Lmao, is he scared to respond
@thatguy8841 it's fine if he doesn't want to. As much as I dissagree with pretty much this entire video as a competitor, I'm not here to antagonize. Just criticize.
This is facts.
I heard an interesting take that average western gamers have legacy skill, just not with fighting games, it’s with first person shooters.
that is definitely a factor but aim assist is actually insane for console shooters, the entire genre basically holds your hand and plays for you when you start out making the skill floor non existent
@@Jaynesslessly Thats fair in terms of the skill floor
@@Jaynesslesslywell yea, aiming on a mouse is braindead easy, controller aiming is harder even if not by much
@@volktol4432 Aiming on a mouse might be easier, but that also massively raises the skill ceiling for aiming. That's why, as far as I am aware, there are no competitive FPS that are played on a controller.
I get that the title is clickbait but I can't bother to finish the video and in like 4 minutes I am already rolling my eyes. Nothing personal, man, but you are just wrong, like many people are when they are new to something. I appreciate you voicing your opinions in a well behaved manner unlike what you usually see in most online platforms (twitter and fb videos especially suck), but holy shit. This is like a guy going to the IBJJF after doing 2 experimental classes of jiu jitsu and being like "look, this sport sucks ass, and if you want more people to enjoy it, here's how to do it:"
The first thing most people on your side comment and for some God forsaken reason nobody on my side comments is that the FGC does not need to grow. I swear some fuckin CEO implanted this idea into people's heads and the psyop got out of control. The FGC barely saw any growth for over 20 years. SF4 was the beginning of a comeback, sure, but it was games like DBFZ that began really bringing completely new players to the FGC, and you know what? Those years were fine. I'd easily take fewer games that are actually made for people like me, that enjoy the unique challenge that fighting games have, than having a dozen games, all of which I have to make compromises with myself to enjoy. Most people that demand for this aren't even that interested in fighting games. How much did people stick with DNF Duel? That game has easy controls!
There are also a lot of things that other people already brought up that explain why you are wrong, but THE thing I hear parroted the most is about execution. As someone else said, motion inputs are an "inch high wall that people tell themselves is unclimbable". This is not gatekeeping, if you want to enter a community, you can't come in demanding things to change just to cater to you. Even if the people that say they would play fighting games if they had no motion inputs outnumber people who actually play them 10 to 1, that doesn't change things, as I said before, the FGC does not need any of you. Also, this is just my experience, but like none of the people I've interacted with who said this type of stuff don't play Grandblue, DNF, SF6... or really any game that offers easier controls. The only friends I've had that became part of the FGC, did it in games with motion inputs.
I don't think that fighting games are nearly as hard to get into as people say, even the older or more technical games have ways to learn them. But, the common factor all of these fighting games have modern or old, is that you will need to learn at some point what it feels like to get your ass kicked. IMO it is a reality of this genre and if you can't take that then I don't know what to tell you, it's a skill based genre. These attempts to make the games more accessible are all bullshit in my eyes, because the games will never appeal to everyone, and trying to make them that way is only hurting their longevity, The reason why MVC2 is still active 20 years later and SFV isn't only 9 years later is because MVC2 has all the jank, difficult stuff, SFV is a corporate product made to appeal to as many people as possible. Fighting games are a hobby genre, and if you don't want to make a fighting game your hobby then you're not going to have fun playing against people who have made it their hobby, no shit. It's like walking up to a piano and getting frustrated because it's too difficult, then demanding the people who made it cater to your lack of skill, and give you built in tutorials with it, its skill ceiling is far too high to comprehensively teach without hours of explanation.
But that leads me into my second point, fighting games aren't even THAT hard to get into. I've met literal 13 year olds, and 16 year olds in this genre doing the highest execution stuff there is in these games. I've met people in their 20s, in fucking med school who got really good in like 1 year, because they practiced. It's all about your perspective, and work ethic.
Everyone here has already made the big arguments, I will just put it this way:
Fighting games are virtual martial arts. You need commitment to be good at martial arts. And you can have fun making martial arts your hobbie.
Also, I've seen a dog throw an EX hadowken.
for sure, but as a game i think there should be an attempt to make the experience fun without commitment while rewarding those that do commit
I disagree with a couple of points. The comparison between fighting games and fps games especially. You may not need to make multiple descions in a split second in fps' but you need to be really fast in your decision or you're dead.
I also disagree about needing all of that game knowledge to enjoy the game. You were Floor 10 in Strive so you needed safe jumps and maybe frame data. I however have been at floor 6-8 since release and can tell you all I need to know to have a decent match is a BnB and blocking.
The average player may have issues controling thier character but they always learn an easy 2 button combo or limit themselves to a special before trying other moves. Baby steps
Thanks for the video tho. It was good to see a different perspective.
fair points, you can have fun at any skill level for sure and slowly develop skills at your pace, but i just worry that small population games ween out the beginner skill bracket too early like in the past
Most of your arguments seem to be based on things that just aren't even true. It sounds as if you learn exclusively from copying what other people think is best, and that isn't necessary. I play Potemkin, and I do well and have lots of fun in 10F without knowing some of the "core" potemkin strats like kara canceling, and it's because I'm just really smart and have a whacky playstyle (I love eating glue). For example, you made it sound like Millia just loses to wakeup DP if you don't safe jump. But that isn't even remotely true. Every single character in Strive can punish a wakeup DP with their very best combo with the single easiest technique in the game: blocking. Block the DP. it's super minus, so you can punish however you want. The difficulty of learning a safe jump isn't a barrier blocking you from the skill floor. It's a challenge you can choose to approach for one extra option if you want it.
16:20 isn’t this part of the fun? Like the fact that every match isn’t just a training mode simulator, and that you actually have to gain an advantage within rps situations. The high-stakes of fighting games and having to rps better than the opponent is where my fun comes from. Pulling off a high execution combo is cool the first 3 times but outplaying someone that has had you on the ropes never gets old. Also Mk has motion inputs.
Also needing those high execution combos that are super optimal are a thing of the past. Unless you plan on playing at the top level, you only need a basic BnB in most fighters. Neutral and basic movement will take you so much more further than doing frame perfect links with pretzel motions, especially in games that have added auto-combos/modern controls. Using Baiken as an argument for high execution isn’t that good. Instant air dash tatami isn’t necessary since it’s an Oki tool * safe movement tool. If you’ve knocked down your opponent you can achieve a similar result with Tatami YRC. The advanced tutorial in Xrd teaches you that. Also trying to play a game as old as Xrd today is already an uphill battle since most players have been playing for almost 10 years now. It’s extremely tough to learn any fighting game (even simple games like DNF Duel) 3 years after initial release, but rewarding people by having them learn a lot naturally is a good way to keep longevity in the game.
And finally fighting games aren’t solitary at all. People should join their local FGC even if it’s just their discord server. My “local” is such an accepting community in which we teach and learn from each other, I’ve had pro players that win the highest competitions help me out for free when asking about situations. The FGC is the best way to learn since you’re able to learn from mistakes at the moment since most players will explain what’s going on and how to beat it.
a lot of the "difficulties" i pointed out are definitely the fun part for a lot of people and getting good is obviously part of the appeal of the genre. but difficulty+seeking out community help to learn the games can be too big of a hurdle and there can be design decisions made to accommodate for more players
I have no idea what you just said.
Just goes to show mastering fighting games is like learning a new language.
@@piercemchugh4509he used a lot of niche terms, here’s the simplified version (and one that would work perfectly fine):
Isn’t mental stack part of the fun? (Mental stack is basically when you need to think of a bunch of things at once, which leads to things that shouldn’t work in theory to actually work on you due to you using your brain power on other stuff) Every match isn’t just all theory, you need to put your opponent into bad situations.
Doing rlly hard combos is cool and all but that gets old, but adapting to and outplaying your opponent always feels cool.
Also, requiring super hard combos are not rly a thing now. Unless you wanna be playing at the highest level (pro tournament level), basic combos work fine, as doing the fundamentals well will always be better than doing more damage in a combo.
Techniques like what the guy in the video said that require you to summon a demon with your hands are also only rlly needed at pro level, where every little thing matters.
Finally, fighting games don’t need to be played without outside help, there’s lots of discord servers and stuff that are glad to help you out!
Also, every game has its terms that would sound alien. Think of backdooring, yanking, circle strafing, etc. These sound normal and easy to the average FPS player, but for a complete beginner, with no context these words may as well be gibberish. It’s up to the community and gamedevs to teach the newbies
I actually think weirdly enough that Guilty Gear Strive is much more approachable for new players that most would think. I don't really play fighting games but I picked it up because it looked cool and because of the way the game plays and the mechanics like the counter system.
I learned how to play pretty fast due to how I was being punished for being too aggressive and then began playing more defensively, and then I started actually winning - I think that people fall out with fighting games is that they don't get to this stage and have this idea of hyper aggression == skill, when if anything that's just going to be exploited by any player with any proper experience.
strive is a great beginner game for sure, i made the game sound harder than it is but thats only through the lens of some of the low tiers but over all its a great game to introduce people to anime fighters
Lmao, what's with people trying to turn real fighting games into arena fighters
the closest to an arena fighter i've played are the gundam games lmao, sparking zero looks cool tho
This video reads like you got banned from a sajam or majinobama discord for asking for tips too many times on how to nail electrics when people keep posting clips of you failing to hold neutral and antiairs.
I was going to leave it at "hey I disagree with some of this stuff, agree with others" but you unfortunately have the virus of insufferable twitter fgc-type that knows certain esoteric knowledge but can't consistently bring that know how to a match because you got too far into gold or platinum without learning fundamentals. Your kinda everything that's wrong with new fgc and it's *technically* not your fault. Stop crying and git gud, though.
16:04 I'd say the mental stack is the fun of fighting games. Being aware of your options, what ypur opponent is doing, the little habits that you have and that they have and playing around them makes fighting games a really intimate genre to play. Its not something thats going to appeal to everyone sinve that sort of pressure can be quite stressful for some, but thats the thing, fighting games don't need to appeal to everyone. Accessibility is a fair point to make, and I'll always advocate for an easier time for people to get into it, but this sort of thing just comes with the territory of playing a fighting game I'd say. Still though, I do appreciate the perspective you're bringing to this conversation, made for an interesting video
hey thanks! but yeah i wasnt neccesarily saying all the hard aspects are objectively bad, just giving a bit of perspective on how new players can be challenged by things that experienced players dont really think about anymore
I'm sorry but this is a terrible series of concepts. You and no one else is a victim. Every popular game is mostly head-empty on the ground floor and that's the reason a lot of AAA games are easily dropped and swapped between. No one is as passionate about their hobby as the FGC but you're not willing to see that bc you're too busy blaming the genre.
It certainly needs growth but games like Tekken 8, Street Fighter 6, MultiVersus, etc have modes other than VS and extensive learning tools in-client.
People want to WIN but they lack the humility to learn without a bruised ego and I think that's sad. It's okay to lose because learning is not congruent with winning.
People play fighting games to grow as people and gamers. They WANT the challenge and to learn.
If someone said they were taking martial arts they'd have to learn how to fight. This is no different.
I think people forget that part of the reason the execution is hard is that it allows a strong player and a weak player to be distinct. Without direct changes to any character, a guy who's played say, Carl Clover from BB for one hour and the guy who's been maining him since CT is immediate and distinct. A player with more skill will get more value off the same opportunity or starter, and that's amazing. It rewards time investment and creates a sense of accomplishment. Without that, the theoretical difference between a new player and an old player is shortened, and the awe of high level play is gutted.
You don't have to input attacks on the last frame of a jump to get a safejump, what are you on right now?
Blazblue. The example of having an optional "easy mode" playstyle. Absolutely love it.
blazblue was pretty good on the single player front too, tons of people played it like a VN with fighting sections more than just a fighting game
yeah fighting games are harder to get into but ones your in and past the barrier of not being able to do simple command inputs you start to improve a lot i used to dislike fighting games up to a few years ago but now i can pretty much enjoy almost any it does help having a group of friends near your level to play and improve with its some of the most fun you can have with them also i would say try to to spend a lot of time in the training room i pretty much only use it to check command inputs for a new character i want to learn then learn in matches against people its for fun that way
you def feel a light bulb go off once you break through that initial barrier, just unfortunate that most people can't
at 11:30, what are you meaning "with the removal of gatlings" with guilty gear?
gatling is a mechanic where you can press normal attacks in a sequence to do a basic combo, it makes it easier to convert smaller hits into longer strings/hard knock downs
As someone currently working on a fighting game of my own, yeah no thanks.
Tekken knowledge checks are unique in that they add nothing to the game in terms of depth. You learn all 5000 strings and end up at a level when less than 10% of the strings are actually relevant
Its a potential design issue for sure but thats just what tekken's identity is i guess. it is kind of funny to see how easy it is to abuse jun's stance mix at low to intermediate level, but at pro level her stance kills her if blocked
I'm one of those People who enjoys Motion Inputs. It's my favorite aspect about 2D Fighting Games. It if does not have any or enough, I literally will not play it. So if they got rid of Motion Inputs, I'm fucking done with Fighting Games. Well at least the future ones. As soon as I found out 2XKO & HunterXHunter did not have Motion Inputs, I lost all the interest for them.
In the words of Kore-a gaming, if you remove the inputs you change the game, I'm all for new games exploring new ways for inputs but legacy series lose their identity when you simplify them too much.
Inputs are just another spice in the rack of the fighting game gameplay, just because you find the journey as an inconvinience doesn't mean there aren't players out there that find that journey fun and satisfying.
I agree with some parts and disagree with others, but I appreciate the mention of Brawlhalla and the acknowledgement of how the issue isn't just about one thing.
Also MVCI apologists need to stick together.
titanfall 2 didn't die EA killed it they legit released it between the 2 major shooters of all time battlefield 1 and call of duty ,, EA knew what they were doing
think the fgs have 5 main problems that if fixed can make everyone happy:
1: Hiding important information
This is a problem because fgs have way too much going offscreen. A basic fg will show you only the combo, counter, recovery and one or two system mechanics. (Sf only shows when the combo ends and Tekken doesnt even show counters) When important stuff like incorrect block, punish, chance to escape, plus or minus have 0 way to know if you dont read it somewhere (because even the own game wont tell you).
How to fix: simply make like Dual Souls (goated game) and show it
2: Bad movement
Walking is kinda sluggish, jump is unsetting and poor explored. Crouch doenst let evade any move. Also in some games you cant even air block! Is kinda hard to explain that for someone who doesnt play fgs.
How to fix: Honestely i dont have many ideas, but making air block a standard, allow crouching low profile more standing moves, allow to change your jump direction more like a platformer would be a good start.
3: Confusing animations
A lot of moves make no sense. Like a kick that hit your feet hits mid (looking at you Valentine) , and the most overheading thing hitting mid too (looking at you Chipp and Sol from ggac). Not only that, but a Anti Air uppercut, a crouching punch that would be reasonable hitting mid hits low for no reason (looking at every under Night character). Combined with the problems above and below kinda kills the quality.
How to fix: Simply make them making sense. And if its too broken make it a littler weaker too.
4: Unbalance between high/low blocking
Ok, having 2 types of blocking is kinda bad by itself, but the advantages of one ridiculously outweigh the other. If you stand block you can protect yourself of moves that hit your head a torso but leaves your legs unprotected, and if you crouch block you can protect your torso and legs at the cost of having your head exposed. This sounds balanced on paper, but there are much more low moves than high moves, and most of them dont hit crouching characters. Well, they cant block an air attack so just need to jump and hit them, right? No, because the moment you leave the floor you cant do nothing untill you reach a range that will make every move miss. On top of that lows can be 2 frames while the fastest overhead is 18 frames (makes a huge difference), meaning that you cant punish them safely even if youre plus. A the end this makes the genre very annoying and the pros will take a giant advantage of the begginers because most of them block high.
How to fix: Might seem crazy, but i suggest 1 lows should be as fast as an overhead. 2 you should be able to do air attacks faster
5: Punishment for anything
You die because you moved foward instead of blocking, then you die because you blocked but got punished. So you jump and die because of that, then attack with a very safe move but you die because of that too.
How to fix: I have no idea, honestly 😔
I think ranked matches help a lot. Fighting games are the most fun when you play against someone on your level.
No, you're not a casual. You're a fighting game fan. The fgc should drop the "casual" term.
I pretty much agreed with everything you said, and it's one of the biggest reasons I don't play fighting games anymore despite loving them my whole life. One thing I was thinking the whole time, especially when you mentioned difficulty of execution in other genres, was metroidvanias. they've been trending toward more complexity and difficulty, but they have a low skill floor, making them pretty accessible for a beginner. At the beginning of those games movement is no more complicated than Mario. But at the end, oh boy. I love Hollow Knight to death but I'll never beat the last pantheon 🤷♀️
Seems this outdated thinking still persists in FGC even today. The truth is these are planned years ago in Fighting game Round Table, July 2020. Weeks before Guilty Gear Strive released. What discussed on this video already been done already, like easy execution and low barrier of entry. The FGC just refuse to listen at that time like Maximilian Dood. I still remember him being anti accessibility. Made a video titled "Stop Nerfing Fighting Games. In the end he accepted the changes in the genre because it works
Lmao nah
I also have points id like to say. Ive been in the fgc about 2-4 years now. Its hard to say when i started havent really kept track. I havent done many tourneys one in fact recently. Where im going with is this. I started my journey to become good and be like the pros the people i looked up. My best friend who taught me fighting games. Daigo justin wong and hell even taco recently (best ts im america represent) i wanted to play them and beat them or lose to them as a equal. I started the hard way learning motions learning execution. And it carried over to dnf duel a simpler game i will admit im not amazing at that game but i have gone toe to toe with better players. Sf6 i didnt do simple because i prefer implementing what i learned and what i carried over in my training. SFV was my first serious game. My point here is this its okay to have simple inputs i personally dont like losing to them. Cause it feels like the work i did is invalidated as opposed to the practice they put in with a easier skill ceiling. I think fighting games should cater to everyone. Dont like complicated combos roman cancels and safe jumps. Play DNF duel it balances the difficulty of using full inputs and encouraging the newer players to transition to the harder ones once they are comfortable for the greater reward. Sf6 does that great too. However i feel like there shouldnt be a choice online. You want complex you get complex. Have the classics fight the classics and modern vs modern. And once your confident try your hand at classic. Sorry for being long winded. Im intermediate at best in fighting games im no pro but i wanted to say my piece.
theres definitely some growing pains with the prominence of simple modes, i dont play games where simple mode is viable but personally i think its ok since a good classic player should beat an equal skill modern player 9/10 times
I didn't play Baiken in Xrd. Can anyone else confirm that that IAD Tatami tech is basically required to win? I played Slayer and could barely BDC, an advance mechanic that's pretty necessary at high levels. I didn't do it often, but I was still able to enjoy the game online. I do agree with the idea that for every character, there should be a low enough skill floor for someone new to just run a basic gameplan with intention that looks and feels cool to the casual observer. But does that not already exist? Can a complete noob not pick up Zato and do basic no-Eddie stuff? I think the solution to this is not to simplify Zato or take away his negative edge stuff or whatever, but to make it so noobs can compete with their equals without first getting bodied. SF6 does this well, I think. You're asked what your experience level is before you fight anyone. That way, a newcomer can pick up whichever character they think is cool, no matter how difficult, and probably have a fighting chance during their very first online match.
of course depending on the skill level of your opponents, you dont need all of a character's tools to win, and like i said not knowing how to pilot a characters entire moveset is fine if there is a skill bracket that lets you compete with your limited knowledge of the character. the issue is that low population games lose those skill brackets too quickly
People normally like to play with friends or teammates, which is why the games that are popular are so popular now. I know some people pick a specific fighting game that they enjoy and stick with it instead of buying the newest fighters that drop. I feel like that's more of a streamer thing, and an unproductive hobby if you aren't getting paid to invest time into it. So you end up spending so much time to 1v1 people instead of getting that dose of interacting with others (Only one person can win in a game genere noone cares if you're good at). If I want to play a game that's multiplayer, it's going to be team-based; if not, there's a lot of single-players out there that give enjoyment. People love Siege even if you have to learn the map. People are addicted to League for some reason, but considering how Baldur's Gate brought so many people over into CRPGs, people aren't mechanically challenged; people want fun in ways a 2d fighting game cant really improve on.
I think the issue is people don’t understand that fighting games are glorified rhythm games at their core. From learning motion inputs, to developing muscle memory, to understanding and playing on momentum in a match. I just don’t think people are keen to try yo simplify fighting games to such an extent. Every match, every opponent, every combo even is just a different version of the same song.
Cant this be said about any genre of anything? Of course you don't know anything you are new. If you having fun relies on beating other people then you have to put the time and effort in. If you don't want to put time and effort in learning or improving then thats not the game's fault its your own.
I also think the "Homework" of fighting games are overblown. You dont need to learn that crazy mix-up and for most casual players all you need is a basic BnB and a reliable anti air. However getting good at something takes time and effort, we have done this with every game and will do it forever. DMC is a game that a casual player can pick up and play but, you don't ask the game to give you SSS rank for playing, you earn it by doing Smoking Sexy Style combos which take time and effort to execute.
No one is gatekeeping anything all fighting game players want is for their skill to mean something. No you shouldn't win against Apologyman or Sonicfox or Punk. Thats like asking Basketball to make it easier for you to win against Lebron James. They have put time and effort into the craft.
My biggest problem with fighting games is that the information you need to get better is often times not told to you or you have to look up guides on RUclips instead of just learning it in game.
I also think tekken 8 is a bad example because the reason why you have arguably more knowledge checks in that game plus the aggressive mechanics that force you into 50/50s was for casual players anyway most of these new fighting games have been catered to casuals in many ways so i guess i just want to ask you a question.
What do you think fighting games should do to appeal to casuals without taking away the fundamentals of what makes a fighting game work? Should we erase frame data? Should we make fighting games play themselves? Should we make it to where the skill floor and skill ceiling are so close together that grinding matchups and learning mechanics doesn't matter?
Not coming for you or anything just genuinely want to hear what your solutions you have for the "problems" you think exist. Im not done with the video just wanted to chime in and you have earned a sub from me keep up the great work 👍🏿
Idk about the apex thing i quit apex because I couldn't understand what good or bad positioning was.
Id constantly lose fire fights and no matter how many times i went to the range and practice my aim i couldn't hit anything in a real match. Apex is hella fast when a fight stars unless you rat. And sitting behind cover against an aggressive team ends up getting me killed, if i try to run away and change my position it gets me killed, if i try to fight them head on it gets me killed and armor swapping isnt something im good at. In R6 you die so fast from someone peeking a corner i have no idea what happened and have to watch the replay to even see who shot me. And i feel like Apex and R6 is much harder to wrap my brain around than a fighting game. And comparing the skill floor of fps games to the skill ceiling in fighting games isnt a fair comparison.
Just jump in a match and press buttons thats how easy it is to get into fighting games to me honestly. There is a video by Sajam i think you should watch its an interesting discussion on this topic as well sorry for another comment.
thanks for the thoughts! in terms of solutions i think a lot of games are making very good attempts and have been designing their games to be much more easy to have fun in at a casual level even if people can argue that they suffer a bit competitively. i don't have answers perse to address every facet of difficulty, but mechanics like tekken's heat does a ton for the low skill experience by giving players a powerful one button tool that has both defensive and offensive utility
I used to love fighting games, back when I was a teenager and would play against my friends, in-person.
But now? I don't live near any of my friends. And my Internet isn't great, so playing online games just isn't something I want to do. Maybe if the fighting games coming out had more single-player content I'd still be interested, but every game that comes out seems to have *less* content that older games. My favorite fighting game used to be Soul Calibur, and SC3 was amazing. But every SC game after that has had dumbed down combat, had less characters and fighting styles, and less single-player content, plus a bunch of DLC nonsense in the latest game.
I am not a competitive player. I don't care about playing online. I am not the target audience for these fighting games, and that's okay. I don't need them to change to become easier. The only thing that would make me interested is something most of these developers have no interest in doing, which is putting in enough single-player content to justify the price tag.
single player content is a worthwhile discussion for sure, for what its worth sf6 tried to do something different with its pve hub system and tekken 8 has that weird avatar mode. but yeah i havent heard of any games that made a splash single player wise outside of the cinematic netherealm games, smash, or blazblue
I would love some fighting games that have a damage limit for combos.
some games have extremely harsh combo scaling both damage wise and hit stun wise so the concept definitely exists, you just gotta find the right game that isn't built around 1-2 touch kills although it does feel like a lot of the current games kill you in 2 optimized touches
@@Jaynesslessly Ah, yes damage scaling is nice. I would love fighting games to be more about strategy and reaction and less about who can perfect the longest combos.
I love Capcom.
I love Marvel.
I don't play MvC 3 because I get
Omega Whooped before I can land a hit.
The skill gap is too high.
I can't nor do I have the time to study and practice the game to the extent that professionals do.
yeah the game is extremely punishing, still fun if you can find a buddy to mess around with tho but yeah getting into it semi seriously as a casual player is a tall task
The first thing i think of when i hear this is true casuals truly dont matter in fighting games. The super casuals who will button mash whether the game has simple inputs or classic inputs. The game should cater to the group that noone ever mentions.... intermediate players.
Also fighting games arent really difficult, they just take more effort than nearly every other genre of game that tends to be more focused on fun and visuals rather than practice. Its like saying going to a fireworks show is more entertaining than spending the afternoon taking your first steps to learning the piano. Yeah its gonna be more challenging to break that barrier but theres something far better on the other side.
My big issue with catering to super casuals is that whole thing gets taken away. Between the internet hyper sharing info and games losing depth by lowering the ceiling of games instead of just the floor things get really stale and solved really fast these days.
You can say what you like about more difficult games but Marvel 3 and smash melee are going to long outlive sf6 and dbf
Quote me on this in 20 years youtube
I genuinely think people underestimate the power that simple input specials have for a casual player. I have a friend who I've gotten to try a few fighting games, and the ones that stuck the most were, big shock, granblue and dnf. I bet if she'd try sf6 she'd enjoy modern controls, I doubt I'll be able to get her to pay another 60$ for game she might not like. It isn't a very complex idea tbh, like if you see a character with a big gun, or a flaming sword, or someone named "grappler" and you can't do the thing that is most obviously cool about them you just aren't going to click. Without spd gief is just a big dude who pokes you and has a bunch of slow attacks that get you punished.
its definitely understated that in some ways, execution gating moves is almost like gating off the fun of the game
I don’t think you need to practice that much to learn. I was able to learn electrics in a couple weeks by just doing 5 a day until I got more consistent. I’m obviously not getting them every time but I can get them enough to effectively play a Mishima. I think people just don’t like putting effort into new things and stepping out of their comfort zones
honestly weeks of daily electrics sounds like a commitment most people can't pull off. i think its commendable you had a successful routine that worked for you and achieved your goal but most people would give up after 15 minutes of trying i think
@@Jaynesslessly I honestly didn’t take that u to account. Not everyone can play every day I think my example is a little unfair
I just want fighting games to have a cod style progression system. I want to unlock stuff. Skins, taunts, badges, tracks.
Mostly i want team games to have coop play. It seem so stupid none of them have not even in a offline environment.
2xko gunna address a lot of that i think, then the industry will follow suit
So, I'm an old head who started with alpha2 and vsav. So you know my bias up front.
My favorite fighting game is granblue fantasy versus rising. That game has radically simplified control. The 1button special moves are the defacto way to play the game. The game has giant buffer windows. Combos are simple. With every character having a max of 4 moves there is not much homework to worry about. And to boot granblue is a popular franchise with recognizable characters.
And yet it struggles to catch up to the numbers of more complicated fighting games.
I believe that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about why people play fighting games. Smash ultimate and street fighter 5 a tought us a very important lesson. No body cares about a game where casual players can do all the same things a
Pro can do. Streetfighter 6 increased the execution needed compared to 5.
So I can't help but feel frustrated that my favorite game, that had everything you are asking for, goes completely ignored by the general public.
Oh and I have traveled to play mvci and done well in competition. that game is fucking ass.
i feel similarly about DNF duel tbh since i love the source material and its literally based on the most profitable MMO in the world. i think the nature of these adaptation games is that they mostly appeal to fans of the source material and they'd rather just play the original games unfortunately
also mvci mightve been ass, but it died before it could develop into more. disney bought xmen back literal months after canning support for the game. its just tragic to me that mvc went out on a whimper
@@Jaynesslessly lack of x-men was whatever. Honestly, mvci was so toxic. At a casual lv super into tag made playing lower skilled players un fun for both offense and defense, it only costed 1 bar. At a higher lv you get dormanu carpet loops and if you block that you still have to block lv 1 super tag. And let's not forget the box.
Never played dnfd, so can't comment.
I don't have any answers. What I do know is what you ask for has been tried and not worked. So I've accepted that fighting games will be niche. I can only hope and pray that I'm proven wrong.