The biggest bomb in the history of zaun and piltover and you're telling me Jinx *doesn't* have something that is entirely not a plan involving sealing it?
What would have been a good plot line substitute for this was Jinx wanting some of the materials, So this whole statement thing was just to get closer. Then, that could of also revealed to red about what Ekko has been up to. Idk, it was a really shitty Jinx inclusion, and I thought it would have been way cooler.
Feels like they are afraid to give the "main" version of Jinx any depth to keep her manic pixie dream girl aesthetic instead of showing the Arcane version of her character.
Remember how Tahm Kench was originally gonna be in Ruined King, but they didn’t do it because they believe he didn’t have a place that would do justice to the character? Feels relevant here.
Warwick could easily have been done by having the entire hunt be foreshadowing that _Future Ekko_ has blood on his hands. In fact, so could the entire plot with Camille, of _course_ Future Ekko would be down to encourage his younger self to bond with the half-machine sociopath. These could all make the villain reveal much clearer.
That's what I was thinking! Have Warwick hunt past Ekko bc he smells the blood on future Ekko's hands and he's too bloodlusted to notice in the moment, then have him explain himself after the fight once he's calmed down
That... Actually makes tons of sense. At least makes it clearer that way. He smelled Future Ekko's blood on his hands, then he smells Ekko's scent and since they are similar makes it that Warwick hunts him, making it terrifying and a bit more in line with Warwick character (don't get me wrong, I love him in the game, showing the perseverance on him hunting one guy, just like any Warwick main when following Blood Hunt's trails) but it can also help with the reveal
it would be awesome. all of these inconsistencies just scream one thing: the people they hire are great writers, programmers and designers but they don't know the game, and they didn't study the lore enough, but I cant blame them, the lore became so deep over the years the point is, the teams should communicate better with themselves
The only thing I was hoping to see at the end of Convergence was a scene of Camille talking to someone from the clan Ferros, saying something along the lines off "The execution of the plan was flawless, the time-manipulating boy has guided me into his hideout, and now, we have the knowledge to build our own Z-Drive. This time, we wont make any mistakes, and Piltover would reach the perfection it needs, starting by eliminating those inferior zaunites" or something like that. But alas, that's not what happened and it only lives in ny mind as a headcanon.
WOW they really did Camille bad. "Our cities are safe now...We're all safe." HUH? that is the exact opposite of Camille!! you're so right that it sounds more like Caitlyn.
@@kingj9664I mean ... she literally has no heart. Imagine if you had Braum just go on a killing spree. Would feel pretty out of character, right? Or if Eldred suddenly became best buddies with all the mages of demacia. Camille cares about the upper class of piltover. Specifically her house, Ferros and despises the lower class. Showing her caring wouldn't necessarily be wrong, if it was toward someone of her class and standing.. but that's not the case here. She views them as filth.
@@trooperscientists2000 Like I said I'm not arguing or disagreeing what they said I just think it's funny that by making her nicer that means her character is bad
@@dontquestionit_edits Exactly why didn't they just chose her instead of Carmela does someone who worked on this game have a thing for Camilla or something
Ekko bringing Camille to his hideout completely brought me out of the story. I can rationalize her teaming up with Ekko since Syntixi is the biggest threat to Clan Ferros at the moment, but the second this is over Ekko is screwed. Camille, in any other circumstance, would hunt Ekko down like a dog and not stop until he was dead and his technology was under the control of her clan. A Zaunite child with the ability to manipulate time? No way she'd let that fly. Honestly the fact that people seem to know who Ekko is and that he can manipulate time is VERY odd to me. This kid has a home. He has parents. Every Chembaron and Piltover elite would want to get their hands on the Z-Drive. Are we assuming that Ekko is somehow holding off every hired assassin or thug sent his way? His parents way? I guess so? When Ekko was introduced, no one knew he had these abilities. From their perspective, this kid just had amazing reflexes and seemed to make every correct move. Of course the introduction of the Timewinder and Parallel Convergence would raise some eyebrows, but there's a big difference between those and legit time travel. It's a shame they've seemed to abandon this dynamic.
It seems to work by Comicbook logic, where a ton of people know there are wizards with magic, ancient gods, thousands of alien worlds, and they just don't care. people still go get a coffee at strarbucks and take a vacation to a national park. The way magic being a thing you can just learn or alpha centauri a place you can easily visit would change the world are just... ignored.
@@altromonte15 After replaying the game I think I may have misread the whole "everyone knows Ekko" situation. Ekko and his abilities seem to NOT be common knowledge in Zaun. Zarkon and his kids have no idea who he is at the start of the game, and only catch on to him having time powers near the end. Clan Ferros/Camille seem to have figured it out through the later's deductive reasoning. Camille getting WAY too buddy buddy with Ekko is still a major pain point for me in the game's plot, but at least this aspect isn't as bad as I initially thought.
I didn't expect them to do Camille that badly. When I saw her in the trailers I thought she'd work with Ekko only to stab him in the back and become a surprise boss fight or something. Wouldn't it have been great if at the end where Ekko stops his future self, she comes in and immediately attacks him saying while the future Ekko threat is gone the present Ekko could easily become a similar threat.
Yeah. I was legit suprised by Ekko and Camilla getting along. They are like total opposites. I expected at best a Lancer-Hero kind of relationship, of them working together, and actually growing to respect each other even when they are enemies.
Giving Camille more emotions and humanity is in itself an interesting idea, but that has to come naturally over time and not bada bing bada boom here Ekko you have a new mother....
But then you would have to base the story on her earlier days, the modern day Camille is exact opposite of that and was very much intentionally changed into a cold and calculating assassin. And you can't do that change without giving audience who knows her a good reason why this change would happen. You can't just suddenly say that this "remorseless murderer is actually good guy" for no reason because that wouldn't be Camille.
@@DelPlaysThat’s what the OP was saying though. If this change happened organically over the course of the game, then it wouldn't be an issue. If Camille's role slowly saw her have her worldview deconstructed, and actively challenged her beliefs in a meaningful way, then seeing her grow to care for this one Zaunite could be pretty cool.
@@DLxxxbut that will require not only time but a very really damn good reason for that change to happen since Camille altered condition makes her sociopathic nature incredible hard to change. At that point I can't even imagine what kind of story would even benefit from that or if it's Ekko's story at all with how much plot would be needed to be diverted to this very wild change of nature. Let's get real here, Camille changing to her very core is not needed at all so thinking how it can be plausible is just an exercise to see more clearly how not needed it is.
My theory is that they replaced Catlyn with Camille because didn't want to make ekko and carlyn meet again for the first time, because it would confuse fans of Arcane
That’s actually a good theory. With arcade release and huge success maybe they had to change a bit the story as to not create an other alternate timeline with their lore
Oh god, the Jinx fan club is such a missed opportunity. The instant I heard that Jinx herself is completely uninterested in them, I could see the massive opportunity as another potential foil to Ekko's desire to connect and make Zaun a better place for everyone, but nope.
I really like the idea of a group of obnoxious snobs projecting their ideals into Jinx and she isn't interested cause she blows stuff up for fun. It is makes sense, just not for the themes of the story. If the snobs were instead maniacs that like blowing shit up for fun, that Jinx would be more interested in them better fitting that community. Like Legends of Runterra has cards that talk about blowing stuff and she Jinx is like YES YOU GET ME! Using people like that would be more fitting people she would build a community with.
seen this a year later after arcane s2, where the jinx fan club gets a mention and reeeasonably prominent role! what did you think of that? iirc she was uninterested in arcane as well-certainly at the start of the season anyway
It seems like the devs wanted Cait instead of Camille but couldn't justify her presence in such a physically dynamic story: Cait can't move like the other champs, she isn't designed for a metroidvania-style world, so they likely compromised and gave her role to Camille, someone who can thrive in that kind of level design. The downside clearly is that you lose both champs because one narritively overwrites the other while not being physically present.
I don't know if the devs can just choose whatever champions. They might be given a certain selection and be tasked with making something with that selection. Caitlyn might just not have been part.
I don't play this kind of games but I'm imagining a truly sniper helper like Mordecai in Borderlands. He helps you from outside vision, maybe Cait could have been a helper like that in some levels? She isn't as flashy but then they could have used more of Ekko's friends to fill that action vacuum.
To me, all of this sounds like the team was handed few bulletin points on the champions and 0 backstory behind them. - Camille: A officer assassin with blades for legs - Jinx: Crazy rebel chick who shoots rockets and that lot of people like - Warwick: Big scary monster that can talk - Ekko: Does some weird time travel stuff And that's what they built the whole story on top of with 0 prior knowledge of their already existing lore. That's the only way I can rationalize how weirdly they treated the characters. It just feels like the game studio didn't give any shits about the actual lore
The fact that they were going to include Ajuna and didn’t realise he was dead for the longest time and then went “let’s just take his last name and say he was inspired by Ajuna so that’s why he’s called that and change very little about him as a character” is the biggest red flag for me. Like, you’re making a story about Ekko, you’re looking at the cards in LoR… and you don’t even realise Ajuna/Sumpsnipe Scavenger is the same character as Ekko’s dead friend from Seconds & Chronobreak?
Reminds me of instances of editorial meddling in comics, where the writers want to use a certain character for a story idea built around them but editorial mandate forces them to use other characters. The fact they even got Ekko’s Arcane VA really makes me think that was supposed to be Caitlyn until some backend edict forced the swap.
It sucks, because that Warwick cameo could have worked and actually pushed Ekko and Future Ekko’s relationship to a breaking point. What if the reason why Warwick was so adamant on hunting Ekko is because he *insists* that blood is on his hands? That Warwick has seen a murderer with his figure… a figure that gets revealed to be Future Ekko, who at some point in his attempt to ‘perfect’ every possible outcome has had to take a life and does have blood on his hands. Obviously Warwick wouldn’t know about the time travel shenanigans and mistakes Ekko for Future. (Probably a really extreme turn that might not fit the story, but I feel like Ekko and Future Ekko having to address that in the end of the chapter could have been a great chance to either plant more seeds of distrust or develop Future Ekko’s character, having him explain why he felt he *had* to do it. I realise this is a ramble, but just a story idea that just popped into my mind) Edit: just noticed filing8586 posted a similar comment a bit before I did. I genuinely didn’t mean to copy your idea!
It’s baffling to me that they emphasised the devil-like horns for Camilles design only to do… nothing devilish with her? I was hoping she would be acting like a nice person to echo in order to use him but no, nothing.
I just realised… just like Caitlin would be a better fit for Camille’s role in convergence… if they needed a simple minded, territorial zaun monster champion to do a chase sequence with instead of Warwick, why didn’t they use twitch?! He’s practically perfect for it! Or hell even zac if you need someone more popular. Twitch is a territorial sentient rat who only cares about his shinies!
I mean honestly there was a way easier option - they should have just had a scene where Ekko cut his hand or something. Warwick smells the blood, loses control, and goes after him.
When SoN does come out, I absolutely expect Braum to be hunting Willump, Olaf to offer Nunu a warm bed, Lissandra to break dance, and Sejuani to have a concert about reuniting Piltover and Zaun.
they could have just have Jinx become allies with future ekko. Building bombs and blowing up things is her thing anyway, and here is a guy who wants to build the biggest bomb ever. I doubt it would have taken much to convince her. Could have led to some nice interactions between two antagonists with similar goals but vastly differing motivations. You still get your Jinx cameo, but you cut the irrelevant sub-plot and actually make her integral to the story. also: damn, they did my girl camille drity...
It really felt wrong for Ekko and Camille to be working together like that. You have to completely ignore the core of those characters to make them work together, or at the very least in the way they did it in the game
It almost sounds like they had a lot of ideas for the champion cameos and then fumbled them. The Jinx and Red situation sounds like it should have been at the START of the game. Like it'd be a good intro to Ekko's character and how he cares about his friends. Having him start with helping Red and having a connection with her, only for Future Ekko to show up and get him to cut that connection would make a lot more sense. He could even use Red's dumb boyfriend choice as an example of how important it is to control the people around you as he sees it. Warwick seems like a better tool for revealing/foreshadowing Future Ekko's turn, with him smelling the "future blood" on Ekko in some weird way. And Camille seems like she could have worked if they made her colder but let her have more growth in the story. Maybe involve stuff with her starting to see some of herself in the path from Ekko to Future Ekko and show some more of her backstory leading into her feeling a bit more care towards him. Just a bit though, not full on grandma mode but more "I'll pet this sad, dirty puppy" mode. Like, she'd still be a classist monster but at least one that cares about how Ekko's doing as it both relates to her job and to her lost self. Or maybe it really was just meant to be Caitlyn the whole time. The long dev period makes me wonder if these were ideas they had going in that just mutated and shifted as development went on, ending up with the messy result we got.
It's weird that they'd add Camille to the game to have that role, because it's not like they couldn't have put Caitlyn and Vi there to have the same role and they sure as hell would attract a lot of attention, because they're both popular characters.
Part of me actually wonders if Caitlyn and Vi weren't used specifically because they wanted to avoid this game overlapping too heavily with Arcane or becoming too wrapped up in Cait/Vi/Jinx stuff instead of Ekko. But I feel like the solution there is to replace Camille with Cait and then also cut Jinx out of the game.
warwicks part seems also made for dr. mundo the same way that camilles role felt made for caitlyn, yknow, if you dont mind all of that champions thematic inconsistencies
Man, Dr Mundo chasing Ekko trying to make him is new patient would’ve been hilarious, though maybe that there is the reason it wouldn’t have worked as well as “Warwick”; too much of a tonal shift.
With this talk about future Ekko constantly rewinding time to get the "optimal" dialogue outcome I do wonder how much it is a reference on Visual Novel/Dating Sim etc players always trying to get the optimal answer and whatnot.
Honestly the Camille problem might have been meant as some kind of like, plot to give Camille her humanity back, but aside from the fact that its probably impossible for Camille to actually feel human emotions again, they didnt give NEARLY enough time or events to actually twist her calculated evil back to humanity It was an uphill battle, and they actively put on the slipperiest wheels they could find to climb it
12:10 funnily enough that is the plot of the 5th mlp equestria girl movie (forgotten friendship) where the antagonist uses a magic stone to make people forget embarrassing things she does but she uses it so much that nobody remember her
I didnt watch or played the game only watched this video, but warwick being on the game when the whole point of the character is he only kills the ones with blood on him fells like a a missed opportunity to do a cleaver part of the story where Ekko makes a mistake of killing an innocent (or something like that) and even with his power, it still hurts him and ends up being haunted mentally and physically for what he did where physically being by the warwick. Just fell like more thought could have been put into the cameos to make ekko develop as a character.
the blood thing isn't a metaphorical thing, it's a literal thing, as shown in his cinematic. He leaps a great length because the pov character cut his hand. If Ekko beat someone to a pulp Warwick wouldn't notice
@@stordoy^ it’s a flawed rationalisation by Warwick, which is what makes it such good character writing. He gains false reassurance that he’s not a monster from his rule, that’s all. It’s not actually vigilantism
@@stordoyWarwick was already chasing the character, before they cut their hand, presumably for things they did in the past. The literal blood at the end only lets him find the criminal using his scent. I don't think that it invalidates the metaphor.
kinda off topic but i love how you do your outros, it’s a perfect moment to reflect on the video, and just simmer with some brewing thoughts, and the wisdom in each one before fading to the music is just so relaxing and fulfilling, like finishing a long entertaining and satisfying documentary and watching the credits
Something that always seems to escape the conversation when comparing a metroidvania to Hollow Knight is that HK is an anomaly. Team Cherry made so much more money than they could ever need that they decided to thank their fans and keep developing free content. That's insane! It's an impossible standard to hold other games to.
24:35 "the only reason this chapter is included in the game seems to be to force a cameo from Jinx to happen" I will argue! that the other reason! is that they had a level they spent too much time on but didn't have the time to put it into the story proper, and it's *Jinx* themed already, so why not put her in there? but otherwise yeah this whole video is very true.
I think that'snot how you build a story - you make a outline of the story frist then sink time and money into developing visuals for honestly one of the bigger levels in the game. So I'd say theory of "Jinx is good for marketing - put her in there" is more likely than them making a Jinx level and then having no idea how to put it into the story.
@@baxland2539 You would be surprised how often developers make a level for a specific theme and then realize that they should probably do something with it instead of scrap it and force a fight or level to happen with little narrative cohesion.
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 I'd not be surprised if there was a concept of this kind of level.. but there is nothing like remarkable in it's design that couldnt be repurposed for different level if they made it before they had final assets.. It's not like there are thematic-mechanics that would have to be scraped or something (unique to this level are the bouncy thingies that are hardly related to Jinx). And I hardly doubt they literally make shit ton of high quality assets frist and then thought about how to include it into the story... I dont think you can make it as mid-sized indie studio if you're that reckless with your resources.
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 just look @ Uncharted: Drake's Deception. an entire ship graveyard level that doesn't make ANY SENSE NARRATIVELY happens because they've had that level from the start, and wanted for it to stay
With Camille being *besties* with Ekko, they could have kept that (if they really needed that) but AT LEAST make it more reasonable. Let's imagine, on Ekko vs Camille, the fight is scripted, you auto-lose (kinda like in Mageseeker with Garen), and when Camille is about to kill Ekko, Future Ekko hops in and beats up Camille easily, and at that moment Camille realises killing Ekko is NOT an option, so she might as well be an ally with Ekko to stop Future Ekko. And this would be a nice comeback for later as a tactic to summon Future Ekko. As for WW and Jinx, both need a revisit, they were cool bossfights but overall they felt like bait from Arcane to promote the game. They have little to no impact from narative standpoint. Jinx has some sort of impact, as in being a distraction, but that's where the thought ends. And WW felt so odd just mindlessly chasing Ekko, almost as if they disregarded the fact that some of his old self is still a bit there... Gameplay, 10/10, but as a story it feels too odd And I was looking forward to it, thinking that it was an auto-banger
So true. They could've had Camille 100% ready to smite Ekko out of existence as you said only to realize "oh no, this ain't it" and work with him out of necessity only to then slowly grow an appreciation for the boy genius. Considering the fact that her ex, Hakim, was a genius inventor and Camille seems like the type of person to value intellect, she might have a moment of remembrance and then grow to see Ekko's potential and see him as a friend that way.
Another comment brought this up but I feel like Warwick could've been rewritten and used as forshadowing yo future Ekko's true nature. Simply have him chase f!Ekko because he smells that there's blood on his hands but f!Ekko gives him the slip. Then he smells p!Ekko realizes they smell the same and partially lost in a frenzy thinks p!Ekko must've simply washed off the blood and hunts him down instead. Then at the end of their chase he smells future Ekko again realize p!Ekko and him aren't the same and leaves p!Ekko to continue hunting f!Ekko.
Yeah, there were ways you legitimately could've made Camille and Ekko's dynamic work, they just needed to put a bit more effort into it. Even if they were never truly "friends" by the end, seeing Camille have a single, solitary moment of genuine empathy for him at the end could've been powerful. And really should've been a CULMINATION of a very hard earned character arc.
Another amazing video, TBSkyen! I agree to all of them. Another problem with the Camille "change of heart" is that... people who are not league players, would get misled with her real personality. I've seen a lot of content creators who are hooked with Arcane, and almost all of them wants to learn more from the League of Legends universe. If they'd play converge, they'd think that Camille is a kind-hearted mother figure. 😂
Something I'd like to touch on: Why would they not explore the history between Jinx and Ekko??? I get its not in the arcane-verse but there are small voicelines in different media that they do have some past connection from who jinx was before. If future ekko says "you can't trust your friends they all leave or betray you eventually", in present ekko's mind, the only real person in this game that could make him believe that isn't total bull, is expanding the past with jinx, before she started talking to the gun. And then the current friend group could have been an example of yes, some people do leave and betray you as they fight their own battles, that doesn't mean all. We could have explored how a trauma developed because ekko thinks he wasn't able to or failed to "save" jinx leads to him manipulating things the way he does, using his trauma of failing to help a friend to snowball into what future ekko becomes and what present ekko must overcome. Then the Inx and Red plot line could have been re-written to be... well to be good, but still the point stands it would have fit the themes. I agree with your point that the story could have been better with no cameos but as you mentioned as well, the story could have been better by properly using the cameos they did take on.
I mean, short answer: This game was in production before Arcane was complete. In fact both this game and Arcane were announced on the same day. Presumably Riot wanted Arcane to be the big story that FINALLY REVEALED the true story behind Jinx and Vi, and Conv/rgence couldn’t go too deep into it, probably because Arcane hadn’t 100% finalised that story yet.
@@cartoonishidealism582 I mean sure absolutely, but at the same time this ultimately ended up being released two full years after arcane and while it would have definitely been more work to add in re-writes that late, so much of the story isn't the pre-animated scenes, it was talking heads. They didn't even need to reveal anything, literally a couple added lines exclusively on ekko's end would have made a world of difference for those in the know. Is it costly and not ideal, absolutely but it isn't so costly and so not ideal it couldn't be done either.
5:08 I'm just here because I like your content and find it relaxing. I do not care about league of legends and would watch a two hour analysis of a phone book if it was on your channel
I think it is important to say often that as a game, Convergence is actually very fun. That said, when it comes to Ekko's friends and their inclusion, I noticed the game actually does utilize them in a good way. After a mission, the game doesn't tell you to immediately go to the next zone. It tends to have Ekko wanting to decompress and think about what just happened. And he always wants to talk to his friends and community to do so. I felt that decision and the unique dialogue each time there did in fact show Ekko's sense of community. It was his reoccurring sense of a normal life. Not Red though. You're right about her, if a little harsh. The game does imply she would become some kind of community leader in Piltover in the future? Great video in general.
In my free time I speculate a lot of scenarios about LoL, playing around with fanfiction, and one of my favourite characters to use is Azir. Now I’m fully aware that Azir is a bad person and is a tool of a horrible system, but at the same time I like to play around with his character, imagine how he’d evolve and develop and become better. He loses his pride and sense of self after a harsh indenture, starts listening to other people, come to terms with his own trauma - including vile child abuse and cruel teachings by his imperial father - and finds his own sense of self beyond pomp and pageantry and tradition: a caretaker, a father, a protector, even a healer. So much so he abdicated his throne, works on the front lines to help his people and Renekton, and even comes to forgive Xerath - all stuff I took from Skyen himself and to whom I owe a lot. I recently asked my followers “is this still the Azir you know and maybe love, or just an OC with Azir’s name and look”, and they seemed to be positive towards his portrayal. I’m not sure how authentic it is but… …at least I know for certain I did NOT do what they did with Camille. Ooh boy is she NOT Camille.
I think one key difference between what they did with Camille vs. what you're doing with Azir is that you can't fake passion when it comes to writing. Like, a studio with multiple people working on a project will never feel as genuine/personal as, say, someone who writes novel-length fanfiction starring characters they love SOLELY because it makes them happy-- it's that sort of homegrown authenticity that (to me at least) differentiates a good story from a bad one. A good author should be just as invested as the audience is in their characters, and whomever was in charge of Camille's portrayal definitely missed the mark. On a semi-relevant note, I'd absolutely love to check out your Azir fanfic, if you wouldn't mind linking it! Your portrayal of him sounds WORLDS better than the character cameos we got in Convergence, LOL
I REALLY don't understand why Red means a fucking thing to Ekko in this game, like we don' t talk to Red EVER. Like not to mention of anyone Ellie is clearly the way better option too, she's literally helpful to our cosmetic choices and is someone we can constantly talk to. Red was clearly shoved in at the very last moment.
As for Warwick, have him mistake FEkko scent in Ekko himself There is already blood in FEkkos hands for what is implied and the fact that he is scared of Warwick meaning that Warwick has hunted him down before in his rewinds or/and in this attempt too So his first encounter he smells faintly FEkko in the boy but not the blood, but thinks he is just trying to mask it so he chases him anyways "You smell weak... No blood anymore... BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ME" "Blood? What blood... Hey hay calm down bad doggy" *chase and stuff* On the second encounter he jumps on Mr Robot Biceps because he is 100% bloodtainted, but when he turns to Ekko he becomes conflicted the smell isn't exactly same and there is no blood so there is no hunting "Your scent is too strong! You can't escape me!" "Aww man I don't have time for this! Fine bring it on then! *Enter combat stance*" "*sniff sniff* *flings back with hands on head* Grrrr... Still no blood... Grrrr... Not the same... Grrrr... Not you... *howl* *Runs towards and jumps over Ekko for dramatic effect*" "Not... me...? What did I... What did he do..."
You know there is such a simple change they could have made to Warwick, have him encounter future Ekko and smell a shit ton of blood on his hands, so much that he goes crazy and start hunting present Ekko.
If Riot doesn't have a "Runeterra Bible" for their characters and settings, it desperatly needs one. We've already visited Piltover and Zaun about 5 times already and all those times we see the same characters being completely different from the last incarnation of them. Having contradictory events following the same characters is fine for a game without lore, but it's very hard to care about any Runeterra story if you know it will all be retconned later for the next thing. I didn't even bother to remember the names of Ekko's gang in this game, because like the Firelight, and like the Legends of Runeterra kids, they are completely gone from canon as soon as the game ends.
Honestly the sad truth is that maintaining such a Bible would probably be impossible. Like, this isn’t just a single game, you’re managing lore and characterisation (which is in itself kinda subjective depending on how you interpret what is written about a character) for over a hundred individual characters across TV shows, novels, short stories, comics, a bunch of indie studios and their games, etc. Not to mention the world of Runeterra is CONSTANTLY CHANGING. I mean just last year they were basically like “Hey actually, Zaun has had this powerful and famous CEO chem baroness this ENTIRE TIME and you’ve just never heard of her ever until right now. But she’s actually super important and she’s been around this whole time.” Hell, Conv/rgence was in development LONG BEFORE LoR came up with their version of Ekko’s friends. Arcane was in development before Camille even existed. How do you manage that? You can’t expect them to like… pause production on Arcane Season 1 in order to make sure worldbuilding details that the LoR team JUST CAME UP WITH are included in the show. Nor can you expect LoR to stop adding any worldbuilding details for PnZ until you’re absolutely 100% sure how Arcane is gonna write the region.
So I don't know how much of Jinx and Ekko's backstory was fleshed out when this game was made, but assuming that it was you could have made a Jinx cameo work as the reason Ekko / future Ekko desire their time travel ability and or feel the need to control everything. Before Ekko had his time tech he lost everything, his old gang, and his mentor / boss and he couldn't do a thing about it and here is Jinx, a living reminder of his failures. This is why Ekko is driven to perfection, driven to keep his time travel powers and use it to help others so they don't turn out like Jinx.
Yes! When the video maker highlighted how Future Ekko wanted his past self to cut off his friends and that "you can only rely on yourself" (because everyone else is disloyal and will leave/betray him eventually), I thought Jinx's inclusion could've worked _perfectly_ to sell that message. She and Red could've been foils: here are two of Ekko's oldest childhood friends, but one betrayed him and the other wants to know what's going on so she can support him. There's so much you could've done with that, and the fact that Jinx' cameo is in the same chapter focusing on Red only further drives that point him.
Warwick's role here is really bad and I friggin hate how out of all the ways they could take his character, they chose to turn him into big scary woofer. Missed Opportunity I agree.
Especially when he could've been used as foreshadowing for Future Ekko's later heelturn (mistaking Ekko for his future self, who DOES have blood on his hands). That would've allowed them to keep him as a menacing threat, while also sowing seeds of doubt in the their relationship.
Your ability to analyze a story and express what doesn't quite work In it is incredible. I played the game, I felt that something was wrong, I was confused why I the game wanted me to care about Red, I got the sense that the Ekkos' relationship was rushed and that the cameos felt meaningless, but you were able to express it in such a way where I'm like "yes! that's it! that's exactly it" All of these just to say, another great video from T B Skyen!
This game is extra wierd because Riot made the statement that from now on all the products they release would be a part of the actual canon. But this game doesn't fit that description at all because how actively in contridicts the canon characterisations and stories that were already established. Besides almost all of the champions not acting like themselves at all, are we just supposed to accept randome additions like Red as canon? We have seen Ekko in so many different things so why was Ekkos "oldest friend" never there, especially when we know so many of Ekkos friends very well already, like Kay for example. At this point it just feels like the Runterra lore has absolutely 0 concistency and any given writer for any project is just free to make up whatever they want as long as it roughly fits, but all of it added up, it just leads to very bad world building.
I find it hilarious that they choose characters that fit within the game’s themes almost perfectly but still chose to butcher/never expand upon their roles and characterization in the story .The way this games portrays Camille and Piltover at large is also very concerning to me, it feel very “bad on both sides, neutral, moderate” to me (It’s Sylas all over again.)
Riot just loves to do this sorta thing all the time. Watch it, in five years they’re gonna be like „You don’t get it. The Void creatures are actually just misunderstood. All they want is to live in peace“
Things I feel could've been improved when it comes to the story of this game (I haven't played the game myself so I'm basing this all around thing's I've learnt through the video): When it comes to Warwick, I feel like a better way to have portrayed him would have been for Ekko to meet Warwick when exploring *with* Future Ekko, and for Warwick to give chase after Future Ekko instead (but since you're with him, it would feel like he's chasing you both). Would've been a cool way for them to hint that Future Ekko isn't all pure, and for the player to look back on and think "ohhh, so that's why Warwick was chasing me". Camille shouldn't have been in the game, should've been Caitlyn. But if Camille *HAD* to be there I'd say to have it be before she got a hextech heart and have her be more of an investigator and less combat-y. OR have her be like in the lore and only using Ekko because he's a good source of information (or some other generic "we're enemies but I'm not gonna kill you because you're usefull" thing). Cherry on top could be for Future Ekko, before he removes the nuke, to do some time thingy that Ekko hasn't learnt yet to reverse Camille back to her human self as a way of garnering sympathy from players and also a "I may have done a lot of wrong, but deep down I just wanted to do what's best" kind of redemption. This would let them keep her sort of motherly personality at the end. Friend group should've had more drama, like maybe they figure out that Ekko is hiding something, and over the course of the game try to sneak it into small talk when shopping. "Hey, you've been missing a lot these last few days, everything ok?" To then culminate in a blow up where they actually find out what he was hiding, and get angry at him for not letting them know. Making Ekko realize that what Future Ekko is teaching to him about distancing yourself and cutting ties is bad. A small detail (that would take a lot of work and resources) would be that if you rewound time after talking with Future Ekko, he would say other lines, indicating that he's been rewinding to manipulate the conversation, the same way as he's done to other people. I had a few more other things but this comment is already super long and will probably not even be seen soooo.... XDDD
The fact that I, a guy that is VERY interested and up to date on the lore had no idea this game had come out untill LAST MONTH does not bode well for it.
This game is screaming cut content to me. It seems like there were IDEAS for various cameos and connections, but they couldn’t put some things together, so they made a patchwork of content slapped loosely together.
Ekko turned his relationships into one of those games with multiple dialogue options, like a dating simulator, or Dragon Age or Mass Effect: save before the dialogue and go back if the person doesn't like what you said.
Tbh connecting the Jinx stage shouldn't be too hard Have Red invite Ekko to the Inx event during the sintixy collecting phase of the game Naturally he rejects bc he is busy with collecting future gunpowder and such Have FEkko call in like "Hey Ekko I've got some new info on where we could find some sintixy, it's on a teather in *Zaum area*" "Oh cool... Wait teather? What theater?" "Let me see... *Inx theater*, I'm on my way there rn" "*Inx theater*?...WAIT WAIT let me take care of this one I-I-I know this theater very well, I know everything about it, I can pop in pop out very fast let me do it" "Are you sure it should be quite fine... " "Oh yeah don't worry about it man leave it to me I got you" "Ok then I will search around some more cya" "Oh yeah go do that cya bye" *Call ends* "REEEEEEEEEEEED" Ekko accepts Red invitation and spends his time there looking for sintixy and such Then he finds out Jinx had those sintixy bombs she stole from the bad guys and we get the sintixy
The recurring trend of champions that make sense to include for narrative/world reasons that would actually fit well only for that not to happen is happening too much in this story wh Each cameo can add their input on why Present/Future Ekko is right, align themselves respectively, and present themselves as roadblocks. Jinx can run off to help Future Ekko, and explain why she thinks he's right/why she wants to help him (even for selfish reasons), and adds pressure for Ekko to hurry and find his future self. Warwick can just barely acknowledge Ekko and hang out in the background, only to become a real problem if let's say, present Ekko got blood on his hands from someone he was trying to protect like Red, then Warwick gets on him, adding more external pressure for what can be perceived as an accident. Camille? She seems like she'd team up, lead the investigation, and persistently put Ekko down during their team up. She sees only his value, and the threat that he presents (especially so with his future self) with his time tech. She'd only get help with the investigation, keep her distance, then dispatch Ekko once she has what she wants. Adding an intense set back. At each point, a choice has to be considered/made by Ekko. Sometimes a very hard one that time rewinding cannot fix or else it will just cause more issues. This probably also sucks but damn
They could’ve hinted that Warwick encountered Future Ekko first and could tell he had blood on his hands, so he associates Ekko with a bad person. Since he doesn’t really ‘see’ and everything’s intense and distorted, he can’t tell the difference between Ekko and Future Ekko Would also get it going that Future Ekko isn’t a good person
I've said this elsewhere before, but I am truly disappointed about the storytelling in this game. Ekko has been a character I played since his release, when I was like 10, and I was so excited to hear he was getting his own game. As you point out, there are tons of fantastic themes about the ethics of control, regret, learning, and the political strategy of radical community building in the famous of overwhelming economic exploitation and subjugation that are inherent to his narrative. Yet, this game really drops the ball on exploring that in any meaningful way. Jinx is a perfect example: There is an established friendship/closeness between these two characters (at least according to LoR and Arcane), and Ekko explicitly misses/regrets what has happened to her. Given the direction they took with his parents and friends, there could easily have been some thematic/narrative cohesion between present Ekko's regret over what happened to Jinx and future Ekko's inability to let go of the control he has in his personal relationships and the damage that this need for control (and in some sense invulnerability has). It could've been a way to give us some narrative progression in present Ekko and Jinx's story: By seeing the damage that future Ekko's need for control has, Ekko could realize that he needs to let go of his pain, regret, and possibly guilt over what Jinx has become (mainly basing these presumptions about his mental state regarding Jinx on his voice lines in LoR and some of what I read from the bridge scene in Arcane). But instead, the story treats Jinx as a prop and barely mentions that these two apparently had a close relationship in childhood. The cherry on top is we are probably not going to get another solo game featuring Ekko, and we don't know whether to expect any more advancement to be given to his story or whether this game even constitutes an advancement (I hope it does not).
YES! RED! Finally someone talks about it, it made me so upset! She had such a cool desgin, concept, there were little side lore fragments that implies that in diferent time lines she and Ekko became a couple, and yet the story treats her like garbage! Bad boyfriend aside (I think its fair to fall for someone by looks alone and have a shallow relationship for it) why the hell she would thought that the gang that workship jinx its cool? That was so out of the character the game establishes for her. I despised this with every fiber of my begin.
35:35 - 35:36 I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that Ekko, one of the most Zaunite people of all time actually touched Camille's buttox in an INCREDIBLY sus way, which is something that would have never happened.
It would be cool if Camile betrayed him at the end. As if she just helped because it was the best person to defeat his future self but now he is just a ticking bomb thats going to build a fricking bomb. Maybe she mess with his time powers (since she knows about it) and you get a hard secret boss battle. We could end with Ekko thinkig he killed her and afraid of his future self while Camile stands up later im the scene saying something about how he lacks precision (maybe setup for a second game where she is the enemy?)
Wow, I was fully expecting Arcane season 2 to reveal that Corin Reveck was Singed’s true identity, after the foreshadowing in season 1, with many ensuing consequences. But instead that character was wasted here.
@@thelastcrow5660 Sure. It just weakens the brand if, across different products, the answers to questions such as “Who is Corin Reveck?” are different. It draws attention to the question of whether the various products, such as the Riot Forge games, Riot’s main games, and Arcane, have separate or shared continuity: the more fragmented it is, the less reason there is to care about any specific entry in the overarching franchise.
Singed being Corin Revack doesn’t really make sense in the context of the lore. Corin Revack is a kindhearted artificer who made prosthetic limbs and ran a shop with his daughter. Singed is a biochemist who created chemical weapons for Noxus and kidnaps people off the street to perform horrific body horror experimentation. Even in Arcane, turning his daughter into a machine would kinda be out of character for Singed because from what we’ve seen he’s all about mutation and chemicals and surgeries, not mechanical limbs and engineering.
So they have a section in the sump where Ekko is chased by a giant monster without any relevance to the wider story, and the monster doesn’t have any real character. Is there ANY reason they didn’t use Dr. Mundo for this? Why waste Warwick? Use the guy who is just funny silly doctor man.
Probably because they were gonna rework Mundo. This game was in development as far back as 2019, which was two years before Mundo would get his VGU, so I assume they knew Mundo was gonna be updated. Also well, it probably wouldn’t fit the scary tone they were going for for that specific scene
The thing is Camille’s inclusion can be good. She has so much potential, they just need to write her better. I think they were trying to make her likable since people of course don’t like rude people, but it’s not Camille. They can make her save Ekko but not because state that she save him because he’s an important part for the 2 cities to not blow up. They can make her do meticulously investigative work with absolute efficiency. In the ending, she could have appear with her leg blade bloody and say that the chem baron has been taken care of, what’s about the bomb? And she will walk away after hearing that. And even if they want to make her a nice person, they can still establish a way for her to be that. It feel like she do a 180 all of the sudden
11:45 I noticed that when I was playing Baldur's Gate 3 with Dark Urge. I would save before choosing and action that only dark urge can choose, only to see the outcome.
"Why the hell is jinx here". Because she's the most popular ADC and pretty much the face of league of legends, especially after Arcane. There is never any consideration as to if she should be somewhere, she's there by default.
I am actually a metroivania fan and not at all a lol player, but I love how you tell those little stories? analyse design, and all you talk about sometimes
I couldn't have put it better. I felt like i was supposed to care about ekkos friends but just didnt, especially red and her whole debacle with Chadd. Also 100% true on. the champion cameos, Camille feels like such a missed opportunity and i couldn't take her character seriously throughout the game at all.. somehow riot finally made this multiverse thing work for me cause i am glad the story isnt canon 😅
I think it could’ve been cool to replace the Inks chapter with a fight between Ekko and his friends. They notice something is up and when they physically won’t get out of the way it turns into a boss rush between the group. It could end with Ekko realizing the irony in trying to save his friends by beating them up or perhaps he continues to side with Future Ekko and the realization is saved for later
My personal opinion is; if you took camille's whole point in the story and replace her with vi, it makes the story so much better. The whole chapter about ekko at the concert would make sense cause vi told him to get some rest and let her reach out to some contacts she has. The fact that she has a connection with both plitover and zaun, the history with ekko as well as the last scene would make it more heartwarming and feel more true to their characters
Hey Skyen, I know this is a long shot for you to read this and it might be a long message so I don't really blame you if you skim it (you've got loads of other people to get to after all ahaha) but hearing the way you talk about storytelling and the ways a variety of genres and visual styles can be used to present it and how much this game disappointed you in all the potential it left on the table has reminded me that I should give you a massive, MASSIVE thank you. I've been watching your videos for a long time now, before I even buckled down and decided to legitimately pursue a career in art. You've been a significant inspiration for my interest and appreciation for character designs and the less verbal aspects of storytelling, things I had always liked but never really understood or felt I had the language or means to make my focus. I don't comment often, but I thought I'd leave one here as way of support since my financial situation doesn't allow me that avenue (yet!). You're doing good man, keep up the awesome work. (P.S. This video was especially interesting as someone who is presently making my own fighting game, a genre that also doesn't always lend itself well to long fully developed narratives, in an attempt to try and show what's still possible in that space. Hopefully when I have more done I'll get to show you some of the work you've inspired!) (P.P.S. Happy Pride Month)
The funny thing is I can absolutely see a story where Ekko of all characters breaks through the hard shell of the villainess Camille. Because Ekko, to me, is the most moral character in the whole Piltover/Zaun divide, he is by far the most Good person he isn't looking to 'heal the divide' but like he's never taken the position of "Do even a morally grey." And he is purely of Zaun, he is not of Piltover. Someone who could possibly show the worth of the city, show its light, show the good of it If a character could crack the cold heart of a villain who seeks nothing but destruction it would be Ekko. But that's also not the story they chose to tell. It is often interesting, for me at least, that a lot of the time I don't disagree with the idea, even the idea they went with, but I disagree with the conclusion. Future Ekko drives away everyone and works alone, Present Ekko is able to make the hag's heart half turn.
If you're one of the people TBS mentioned in the market for a Metroidvania specifically, Hollow Knight is probably the best ever made and is actually on sale for $7.50 right now. Buy it whether or not you were going to buy Convergence
While i agree it definitely shouldve been moved earlier in the story, the Inx and Jinx fight was quite enjoyable And yeah, Camille was a little odd I'm not familiar with her, but ekko casually inviting her into the hideout felt very off, like, should've been a little more distrust
29:16 Especially considering they could just have had him chase future ekko, and use that to drive the conflict. Why would someone who only hints murderers chase Ekko?(conflict ensues from there). They also could have had jinx sooner, as an example of why the unobtanium needed to be destroyed. These weren’t like, hard to come up with, and I’m no professional writer. It’s kinda wack how forced these cameos are
As someone who very much enjoyed this game, i do completely agree with most of these points and noticed them myself during my playthrough. Its a very flawed game, but I do love it for the art, music, and other parts that they actually did well.
before anyone talks about the story, i don’t understand why they released this game so close after mageseeker. especially since both games aren’t exactly cheap and both are directed at the same audience.
If they really wanted to 'both sides' the Piltover and Zaun conflict, it's even more baffling why they didn't include Caitlyn. She's literally 'one of the good ones' in every way.
so the story isn't just *bad* and only bad, but it has a lot of core thematic ideas that it ultimately really fails to deliver on and truly explore. and that 100% feels even worse. the disappointment that there COULD'VE been more there, that they were on the very cusp of it, that it had a lot of potential. that sucks a lot. hearing about the morality aspects of ekko's time travel adds SO MUCH unexpected depth to his character, it's a genuinely extremely intriguing narrative. i wish that it was worked on further and deeper than it was. ultimately though, i don't doubt that it was simply due to development issues, and i don't blame the team per se.
Camille fits the "changed by technology" aspect but I also think she makes more sense as a boss fight gameplay wise. Caitlyn feels a lot more like an obstacle for a level where you need to keep moving, stay hidden or bait her into missing shots in order to progress. Camille's kit allows her to zoom around and actually make an interesting fight. Either wat I must say I appreciate them not just reusing the arcane cast.
You know how you could've done something great that fits Ekko's plot, makes Jinx more relevent to the story and does something surprising? Have Ekko ask Jinx for help disarming the bomb! It would be fascinating and funny to ask Jinx to NOT blow something up, but it fits the idea that Ekko needs to learn to ask people for help, and for Jinx to try and blow him up for asking, so you keep the boss fight. It looks like you could largely swap Jinx and Camille's roles in this narrative, maybe made Camille a recurring boss fight, and it'd work way better! Imagine if it's Jinx in that final shot trying to offer Ekko some comfort, this broken person trying to give him some reassurance.... (Ah, but then we don't get the importance of Zaunites learning to appreciate/work with their rich oppressors! *sigh*)
yeah sadly that could work maybe with Jinx from Arcane, but Jinx from the actual lore is still just early comics Harley Quinn. Completely fucking crazy.
@dedosdeceniza I don't know about that. Sure it feels like that but that's only because they haven't given her much to do or revealed much of her backstory. Also, let's be honest. League Jinx will always be overshadowed by Arcane Jinx.
Thing is, you don't need Arcane Jinx to make this work. I was actually thinking more of her comic role. Even without using her past with Ekko, she's... not usually the mass murder for kicks type. Like, she's not above killing but this level of devastation to both sides doesn't seem to match her idea of fun. She blows up specific stuff, usually to annoy people.
Camille feels like she should be aligned with future Ekko. She obviously doesn't want anything to happen to Piltover. But stopping Zaun from getting this powerful tech while also killing half the people in it. Seems like a win win for Camille.
The whole Inx chaper makes me feel like someone in the team had a bad breakup or romantic experience and went all "nice guy" about it. "Women only want too date jerks that treat them like shit" type of stuff, ya know
There's loads of 'insteads' in the game. Instead of Warwick, the game could've used either Twitch, Dr. Mundo, or even Urgot. Urgot even works with the 'you stepped into my territory' too, and Urgot would've made Future Ekko scared too, because he knows how unreasonable Urgot is and how dangerous he could be. As a plus, having Urgot's mechanical spider legs climb in the background as a giant shadow, or just having the skitters of his legs would've been quite the trigger for arachnophobes. Instead of Camille, why not use Caitlyn instead? Works fine with the 'working with Piltover crowds' since Caitlyn too wanted the same thing (and did so with Vi too). Plus they both met in Arcane, so that's another story thread they could use. Instead of Jinx, why not use Seraphine? Works with the 'fanatic fans' thing since Seraphine has Zaunite parents and did concert in Zaun too. There's even lore material that says Ekko and his friends attended her concert too. Can just make it so that Seraphine mistook him for those who're too fanatic and almost bombed the concert, so there's the boss fight. There's also even lore about how Caitlyn likes Seraphine too, so it would make sense why Caitlyn is there attending the concert, and make sense how Caitlyn would save Ekko from the boss fight with Seraphine and explaining to Sera that Ekko isn't her enemy. Or if they really want to get Jinx cameo, then make Jinx the one who placed the bomb, and have Ekko's friends and Red attend the concert while Ekko didn't. Could have that moment where Ekko have to choose between dealing with his future self with ample time, or try to save his friends from Jinx's antics and race against time to find his future self. It really did felt like the team behind Convergence just read the stuff from LoL's official website, and they probably didn't click on the 'read more'.
well you definitely made me dodge a bullet here lol. I guess I was expecting something that could tie in a bit of this into Arcane, but heard nobody talk about this so idk anymore.
The worst part is that it's so close to being decent. Move Jinx's chapter to the start, have Future Ekko use it to make a point about how people aren't reliable. Possibly leading into the fight where it's revealed Future Ekko is building a bomb. Have Warwick chase Future Ekko and Present Ekko takes the fall, and instead of Camille being helpful have Warwick intervene because he was chasing Future Ekko but smells the blood in Camille. Have Ekko confide in his friends with his dilemma, and every time Camille would have helped have his friends use little gadgets they invented. Doesn't fix all the problems, but would have made a hell of a lot more sense.
I think they subbed Camille into Caitlyn's spot because there's no reasonable way for Caitlyn to just drop from the sky to interrupt a fight. Caitlyn still needs to walk places.
I feel like this game is actively working for the problem that the Lore has right now. It's a piece that seems to create its own spin on the lore and is more of a what if thing rather than feeling canon. Riot mentioned that they didn't like that all their lore was a bit all over the place and that they rather have one canon than each game having their own little canon... While Mageseeker or Ruined King progressed stories forward and filled holes in the lore of the characters we saw in them this game just creates another alternate version of Ekko.. well.. two versions of him ig. Imo we should look at this game like it also was just another timeline.
It feels like Camille would have been better served as secondary antagonist. Better take? She uses Ekko to figure out what is going on, and when she learns about Future-Ekko and the Syntixi she hatches a new plot to work with Ekko enough to get access to the Syntixi. She would steal it and try to reverse-engineer it so it destroys only Zaun and not Piltover, THAT sounds like the League of Legends Camille. My take-away on why this played out as it did was Caitlyn WAS supposed to be there, but something happened mid-production. Either Caitlyn was going to be used in a future production which would conflict with Convergence, or maybe her voice actress wasn't available, or maybe Riot just said "no you can't use her for that." Whatever it was, it left the team without the character they had written the story for. So they had to try and re-work it, and it seemed like Caitlyn's spot HAD to be filled and in a way it wouldn't require a bunch of story re-writes. So they wrote in Camille's boss-fight, immediately turned her into an ally, and went with it. I suspect Jinx suffered a parallel but different fate. If feels like they team wanted to tell a larger story, and they were planning it from the ground up, but Riot came down and gave them an updated (and shorter) deadline than they expected. Sacrifices had to be made, the Jinx plot was unceremoniously cut and Red took the fall. I feel they already had most of Jinx's voice-lines recorded and actress paid, so they cobbled that weird broken chapter just to tie things together shoddily. I mean you can't just cut out Jinx, marketing and all. That whole theory would explain why that chapter was so jarring and irrelevant. As for Warwick, no idea there. I would assume Warwick was 100% marketing and they needed another champion. Then again on a quick thing, it is possible Warwick's fight may have been planned if the original story included Caitlyn. They could have written it as Warwick chasing Ekko because Future-Ekko had the "blood on his hands", and when it comes to time Warwick can't tell the difference. Caitlyn comes in to help in a Warwick boss-fight, and spring-boards into her helping Ekko instead of Camille. Would make more sense, Caitlyn may have been in Zaun on leads and she found them fighting. Fights over, they get to talking and she agrees to help him. After all the syntixi was going to level both Piltover and Zaun, it would have made more sense if Caitlyn was the Piltover who helps Ekko.
While Camille can use some more nuance and more consistency (aka cold, ruthless and calculating) portrayal, having her being outright villainous and trying to destroy Zaun also makes no sense since Piltover and Zaun are stacked on top of one another so anything that have a large impact on one city will also affect the other, especially with Zaun being the foundation that Piltover is sitting on so if Zaun is destroyed I guess Piltover will collapse suite. Furthermore, while they might have certain enmity, Piltover and Zaun also have a kind of symbiotic relationship, with their people moving between the two cities for trade, jobs, education and many other things, which means big negative things happening to Zaun will also affect Piltover, including both their citizens and economic interest. The situation in the game is pretty critical too, with factors outside of Camille's control so there's no time (like time travel) for her to be too calculating and scheming when the destruction of both Piltover and Zaun is at hand so I guess she would go out of her way to be more cordial, friendly and willing to help to get things done (although her being somewhat affectionate can rub people the wrong way). I think Camille is a better fit for this job, given her affinity for secrecy and espionage, just that she can be portrayed with more aloofness and her relationship with Ekko being more of a strictly professional alliance-of-convenience. She could be a ruthless killing machine but it doesn't mean she has to act like a murderous and scheming villain all the time and characters can certainly have other sides or development in personalities and way of operating to avoid being one-note people who's only known for 1 thing and keep being like that forever for the sake of "consistency".
Switch Camille with Caitlyn and Warwick with Twitch with minimal Dialoge changes, and release the Jinx episode as a DLC, and this game is ten times better
Or have the Jinx Tangent be a SIDEQUEST that you can participate in whenever you want. That way you don't have to pay extra money for it, Jinx still gets her cameo, and it doesn't have to disturb the flow of the story.
It might be that they weren't allowed to use Caitlyn because of Arcane? Idunno. That argument kind of falls apart because of Jinx's presence, but maybe there's something there?
I feel like the Camille recharacterization COULD'VE worked if they actually provided a build up and reasoning for it. It's not like there is absolutely 0 precedent for Camille still having human empathy and emotions seeing as in her bio and short stories there are moments that show even she admits she still feels and has regrets (albeit she represses them omega hard), the story just never built up to it.
I feel like Camille's role should have been given to Caitlyn like you said, but that doesnt mean Camille should be removed from the game per say. She could actually be a pretty good foil to Caitlyn, both could prioritize piltover over zaun, but while Camille is heartless and unmoving on it, Caitlyn isn't. Hell, even if you dont have Caitlyn against Zaun at first they could say she was more like Camille in the past, and Camille is that old priority taken to an extreme because Camille is litterally and figuratively heartless, and that again ties into the themes you talked about here.
The fact that Jinx is merely an irrelevant tangent in a story where one of the central threats is a giant *bomb* feels so weird.
Makes you really wonder how why she isn't supposed to be related in making it.
I feel like she's unhinged enough to sniff out explosives and come at least suggesting to paint the thing and at most get some spare parts.
The biggest bomb in the history of zaun and piltover and you're telling me Jinx *doesn't* have something that is entirely not a plan involving sealing it?
What would have been a good plot line substitute for this was Jinx wanting some of the materials, So this whole statement thing was just to get closer. Then, that could of also revealed to red about what Ekko has been up to. Idk, it was a really shitty Jinx inclusion, and I thought it would have been way cooler.
Feels like they are afraid to give the "main" version of Jinx any depth to keep her manic pixie dream girl aesthetic instead of showing the Arcane version of her character.
Remember how Tahm Kench was originally gonna be in Ruined King, but they didn’t do it because they believe he didn’t have a place that would do justice to the character? Feels relevant here.
Warwick could easily have been done by having the entire hunt be foreshadowing that _Future Ekko_ has blood on his hands. In fact, so could the entire plot with Camille, of _course_ Future Ekko would be down to encourage his younger self to bond with the half-machine sociopath. These could all make the villain reveal much clearer.
That's what I was thinking! Have Warwick hunt past Ekko bc he smells the blood on future Ekko's hands and he's too bloodlusted to notice in the moment, then have him explain himself after the fight once he's calmed down
I was thinking that exact same thing
That... Actually makes tons of sense. At least makes it clearer that way. He smelled Future Ekko's blood on his hands, then he smells Ekko's scent and since they are similar makes it that Warwick hunts him, making it terrifying and a bit more in line with Warwick character (don't get me wrong, I love him in the game, showing the perseverance on him hunting one guy, just like any Warwick main when following Blood Hunt's trails) but it can also help with the reveal
it would be awesome. all of these inconsistencies just scream one thing: the people they hire are great writers, programmers and designers but they don't know the game, and they didn't study the lore enough, but I cant blame them, the lore became so deep over the years
the point is, the teams should communicate better with themselves
Maybe even have Warwick say quotes like " how did you wash it off?" or " WHERE IS THE BLOOOD!?!"
Glad to receive confirmation I didn't misremember all of Camille's lore and they did write her as a completely different character
Like they did to Talon in the Katarina comic. >:(
@@wrazorleafReally? I came away thinking it was pretty accurate - what did they change?
The only thing I was hoping to see at the end of Convergence was a scene of Camille talking to someone from the clan Ferros, saying something along the lines off "The execution of the plan was flawless, the time-manipulating boy has guided me into his hideout, and now, we have the knowledge to build our own Z-Drive. This time, we wont make any mistakes, and Piltover would reach the perfection it needs, starting by eliminating those inferior zaunites" or something like that. But alas, that's not what happened and it only lives in ny mind as a headcanon.
WOW they really did Camille bad. "Our cities are safe now...We're all safe." HUH? that is the exact opposite of Camille!! you're so right that it sounds more like Caitlyn.
I get what you're saying and you're not wrong but it just sounds weird to me to say they did a character wrong for not making her Carrying person
@@kingj9664I mean ... she literally has no heart.
Imagine if you had Braum just go on a killing spree. Would feel pretty out of character, right? Or if Eldred suddenly became best buddies with all the mages of demacia.
Camille cares about the upper class of piltover. Specifically her house, Ferros and despises the lower class. Showing her caring wouldn't necessarily be wrong, if it was toward someone of her class and standing.. but that's not the case here. She views them as filth.
@@kingj9664 I like her bc she is a cold blooded badass not a kind person now if that kind person was caitlyn i would love it
@@trooperscientists2000 Like I said I'm not arguing or disagreeing what they said I just think it's funny that by making her nicer that means her character is bad
@@dontquestionit_edits Exactly why didn't they just chose her instead of Carmela does someone who worked on this game have a thing for Camilla or something
Ekko bringing Camille to his hideout completely brought me out of the story. I can rationalize her teaming up with Ekko since Syntixi is the biggest threat to Clan Ferros at the moment, but the second this is over Ekko is screwed. Camille, in any other circumstance, would hunt Ekko down like a dog and not stop until he was dead and his technology was under the control of her clan. A Zaunite child with the ability to manipulate time? No way she'd let that fly.
Honestly the fact that people seem to know who Ekko is and that he can manipulate time is VERY odd to me. This kid has a home. He has parents. Every Chembaron and Piltover elite would want to get their hands on the Z-Drive. Are we assuming that Ekko is somehow holding off every hired assassin or thug sent his way? His parents way? I guess so?
When Ekko was introduced, no one knew he had these abilities. From their perspective, this kid just had amazing reflexes and seemed to make every correct move. Of course the introduction of the Timewinder and Parallel Convergence would raise some eyebrows, but there's a big difference between those and legit time travel. It's a shame they've seemed to abandon this dynamic.
It seems to work by Comicbook logic, where a ton of people know there are wizards with magic, ancient gods, thousands of alien worlds, and they just don't care. people still go get a coffee at strarbucks and take a vacation to a national park. The way magic being a thing you can just learn or alpha centauri a place you can easily visit would change the world are just... ignored.
@@altromonte15 After replaying the game I think I may have misread the whole "everyone knows Ekko" situation. Ekko and his abilities seem to NOT be common knowledge in Zaun. Zarkon and his kids have no idea who he is at the start of the game, and only catch on to him having time powers near the end. Clan Ferros/Camille seem to have figured it out through the later's deductive reasoning.
Camille getting WAY too buddy buddy with Ekko is still a major pain point for me in the game's plot, but at least this aspect isn't as bad as I initially thought.
I didn't expect them to do Camille that badly. When I saw her in the trailers I thought she'd work with Ekko only to stab him in the back and become a surprise boss fight or something. Wouldn't it have been great if at the end where Ekko stops his future self, she comes in and immediately attacks him saying while the future Ekko threat is gone the present Ekko could easily become a similar threat.
Yeah. I was legit suprised by Ekko and Camilla getting along. They are like total opposites. I expected at best a Lancer-Hero kind of relationship, of them working together, and actually growing to respect each other even when they are enemies.
Giving Camille more emotions and humanity is in itself an interesting idea, but that has to come naturally over time and not bada bing bada boom here Ekko you have a new mother....
But then you would have to base the story on her earlier days, the modern day Camille is exact opposite of that and was very much intentionally changed into a cold and calculating assassin. And you can't do that change without giving audience who knows her a good reason why this change would happen.
You can't just suddenly say that this "remorseless murderer is actually good guy" for no reason because that wouldn't be Camille.
@@DelPlaysThat’s what the OP was saying though. If this change happened organically over the course of the game, then it wouldn't be an issue. If Camille's role slowly saw her have her worldview deconstructed, and actively challenged her beliefs in a meaningful way, then seeing her grow to care for this one Zaunite could be pretty cool.
I mean this camille after her brother is dead.
@@DLxxxbut that will require not only time but a very really damn good reason for that change to happen since Camille altered condition makes her sociopathic nature incredible hard to change. At that point I can't even imagine what kind of story would even benefit from that or if it's Ekko's story at all with how much plot would be needed to be diverted to this very wild change of nature. Let's get real here, Camille changing to her very core is not needed at all so thinking how it can be plausible is just an exercise to see more clearly how not needed it is.
My theory is that they replaced Catlyn with Camille because didn't want to make ekko and carlyn meet again for the first time, because it would confuse fans of Arcane
That’s actually a good theory. With arcade release and huge success maybe they had to change a bit the story as to not create an other alternate timeline with their lore
@@Milkiia Well it is undercut a bit by the post credits scene showing arcane as one of the AUs
@@Milkiia LOL lore and arcane lore are already different,
@@somo4227 Not anymore they're not, to the consternation of many. (Looks over to see TBSkyen and Necrit having mental breakdowns in the corner.)
@@mirrorzone5224 this is old news even before arcane season 2
i personally just ignore that comment made by one rioter
Oh god, the Jinx fan club is such a missed opportunity. The instant I heard that Jinx herself is completely uninterested in them, I could see the massive opportunity as another potential foil to Ekko's desire to connect and make Zaun a better place for everyone, but nope.
I really like the idea of a group of obnoxious snobs projecting their ideals into Jinx and she isn't interested cause she blows stuff up for fun. It is makes sense, just not for the themes of the story. If the snobs were instead maniacs that like blowing shit up for fun, that Jinx would be more interested in them better fitting that community.
Like Legends of Runterra has cards that talk about blowing stuff and she Jinx is like YES YOU GET ME! Using people like that would be more fitting people she would build a community with.
@@Nico-zt5jl Nah, the point I was trying to make was that Jinx would be a good foil here because she's uninterested, it's opposite to Ekko.
seen this a year later after arcane s2, where the jinx fan club gets a mention and reeeasonably prominent role! what did you think of that? iirc she was uninterested in arcane as well-certainly at the start of the season anyway
It seems like the devs wanted Cait instead of Camille but couldn't justify her presence in such a physically dynamic story: Cait can't move like the other champs, she isn't designed for a metroidvania-style world, so they likely compromised and gave her role to Camille, someone who can thrive in that kind of level design. The downside clearly is that you lose both champs because one narritively overwrites the other while not being physically present.
you might as well have just created a brand new character
I don't know if the devs can just choose whatever champions. They might be given a certain selection and be tasked with making something with that selection. Caitlyn might just not have been part.
what about zac,or blitzcrank
I don't play this kind of games but I'm imagining a truly sniper helper like Mordecai in Borderlands. He helps you from outside vision, maybe Cait could have been a helper like that in some levels? She isn't as flashy but then they could have used more of Ekko's friends to fill that action vacuum.
To me, all of this sounds like the team was handed few bulletin points on the champions and 0 backstory behind them.
- Camille: A officer assassin with blades for legs
- Jinx: Crazy rebel chick who shoots rockets and that lot of people like
- Warwick: Big scary monster that can talk
- Ekko: Does some weird time travel stuff
And that's what they built the whole story on top of with 0 prior knowledge of their already existing lore. That's the only way I can rationalize how weirdly they treated the characters. It just feels like the game studio didn't give any shits about the actual lore
The fact that they were going to include Ajuna and didn’t realise he was dead for the longest time and then went “let’s just take his last name and say he was inspired by Ajuna so that’s why he’s called that and change very little about him as a character” is the biggest red flag for me. Like, you’re making a story about Ekko, you’re looking at the cards in LoR… and you don’t even realise Ajuna/Sumpsnipe Scavenger is the same character as Ekko’s dead friend from Seconds & Chronobreak?
Reminds me of instances of editorial meddling in comics, where the writers want to use a certain character for a story idea built around them but editorial mandate forces them to use other characters.
The fact they even got Ekko’s Arcane VA really makes me think that was supposed to be Caitlyn until some backend edict forced the swap.
The shot of Camille, legs spread to become a bridge for Ekko at 35:36 just kills me everytime
shits wild af
TRUE, why the heck would Camille of all people let a ZAUNITE literally step over her
guess you could say Ekko managed to grind on Camille's ass
Literally spread her cheeks for Ekko
There's also that scene where she sat on Jinx's face
@@bobbobby475 This is a literally the definition of a writer not hiding their fetishes
It sucks, because that Warwick cameo could have worked and actually pushed Ekko and Future Ekko’s relationship to a breaking point. What if the reason why Warwick was so adamant on hunting Ekko is because he *insists* that blood is on his hands? That Warwick has seen a murderer with his figure… a figure that gets revealed to be Future Ekko, who at some point in his attempt to ‘perfect’ every possible outcome has had to take a life and does have blood on his hands. Obviously Warwick wouldn’t know about the time travel shenanigans and mistakes Ekko for Future.
(Probably a really extreme turn that might not fit the story, but I feel like Ekko and Future Ekko having to address that in the end of the chapter could have been a great chance to either plant more seeds of distrust or develop Future Ekko’s character, having him explain why he felt he *had* to do it. I realise this is a ramble, but just a story idea that just popped into my mind)
Edit: just noticed filing8586 posted a similar comment a bit before I did. I genuinely didn’t mean to copy your idea!
It’s baffling to me that they emphasised the devil-like horns for Camilles design only to do… nothing devilish with her?
I was hoping she would be acting like a nice person to echo in order to use him but no, nothing.
I just realised… just like Caitlin would be a better fit for Camille’s role in convergence… if they needed a simple minded, territorial zaun monster champion to do a chase sequence with instead of Warwick, why didn’t they use twitch?! He’s practically perfect for it! Or hell even zac if you need someone more popular. Twitch is a territorial sentient rat who only cares about his shinies!
"Zac" loreless take
@@stordoy still a better pick then Warwick. Zacs anger issues aren’t tied to blood.
They could have used the thug from Ekko's champion reveal with upgraded equipment hunting him for revenge.
@@Crazygamergal Zac would have been even more idiotic than what they did to ww.
I mean honestly there was a way easier option - they should have just had a scene where Ekko cut his hand or something.
Warwick smells the blood, loses control, and goes after him.
When SoN does come out, I absolutely expect Braum to be hunting Willump, Olaf to offer Nunu a warm bed, Lissandra to break dance, and Sejuani to have a concert about reuniting Piltover and Zaun.
@breadguy5198 angry
they could have just have Jinx become allies with future ekko. Building bombs and blowing up things is her thing anyway, and here is a guy who wants to build the biggest bomb ever. I doubt it would have taken much to convince her. Could have led to some nice interactions between two antagonists with similar goals but vastly differing motivations. You still get your Jinx cameo, but you cut the irrelevant sub-plot and actually make her integral to the story.
also: damn, they did my girl camille drity...
It really felt wrong for Ekko and Camille to be working together like that. You have to completely ignore the core of those characters to make them work together, or at the very least in the way they did it in the game
It almost sounds like they had a lot of ideas for the champion cameos and then fumbled them.
The Jinx and Red situation sounds like it should have been at the START of the game. Like it'd be a good intro to Ekko's character and how he cares about his friends. Having him start with helping Red and having a connection with her, only for Future Ekko to show up and get him to cut that connection would make a lot more sense. He could even use Red's dumb boyfriend choice as an example of how important it is to control the people around you as he sees it.
Warwick seems like a better tool for revealing/foreshadowing Future Ekko's turn, with him smelling the "future blood" on Ekko in some weird way.
And Camille seems like she could have worked if they made her colder but let her have more growth in the story. Maybe involve stuff with her starting to see some of herself in the path from Ekko to Future Ekko and show some more of her backstory leading into her feeling a bit more care towards him. Just a bit though, not full on grandma mode but more "I'll pet this sad, dirty puppy" mode. Like, she'd still be a classist monster but at least one that cares about how Ekko's doing as it both relates to her job and to her lost self. Or maybe it really was just meant to be Caitlyn the whole time.
The long dev period makes me wonder if these were ideas they had going in that just mutated and shifted as development went on, ending up with the messy result we got.
I tend to come here thinking “This’ll help me fall asleep”
but I always end up watching the whole thing
like damn you 💀
It's weird that they'd add Camille to the game to have that role, because it's not like they couldn't have put Caitlyn and Vi there to have the same role and they sure as hell would attract a lot of attention, because they're both popular characters.
Part of me actually wonders if Caitlyn and Vi weren't used specifically because they wanted to avoid this game overlapping too heavily with Arcane or becoming too wrapped up in Cait/Vi/Jinx stuff instead of Ekko. But I feel like the solution there is to replace Camille with Cait and then also cut Jinx out of the game.
warwicks part seems also made for dr. mundo the same way that camilles role felt made for caitlyn, yknow, if you dont mind all of that champions thematic inconsistencies
Man, Dr Mundo chasing Ekko trying to make him is new patient would’ve been hilarious, though maybe that there is the reason it wouldn’t have worked as well as “Warwick”; too much of a tonal shift.
Yall are forgeting about Urgot
he even has a thing about technology changing ppl if you care about that, like come ON
@@St0nekbeing able to go back in time right before diying to urgots grinders would be so fkin awesome
With this talk about future Ekko constantly rewinding time to get the "optimal" dialogue outcome I do wonder how much it is a reference on Visual Novel/Dating Sim etc players always trying to get the optimal answer and whatnot.
God I hope not. We have more than enough western devs writing clever meta-commentaries on genres they don't really care about, thanks.
Life is Strange anyone?
Isn't it also reference his attempt to save his friend in the main universe too?
It honestly reminded me of Undertale, where the player can reset and change the outcomes of stories solely out of cold curiosity
@@shineyydesigns7696 future ekko is almost literally flowey, except he has a goal.
Honestly the Camille problem might have been meant as some kind of like, plot to give Camille her humanity back, but aside from the fact that its probably impossible for Camille to actually feel human emotions again, they didnt give NEARLY enough time or events to actually twist her calculated evil back to humanity
It was an uphill battle, and they actively put on the slipperiest wheels they could find to climb it
12:10 funnily enough that is the plot of the 5th mlp equestria girl movie (forgotten friendship) where the antagonist uses a magic stone to make people forget embarrassing things she does but she uses it so much that nobody remember her
I didnt watch or played the game only watched this video, but warwick being on the game when the whole point of the character is he only kills the ones with blood on him fells like a a missed opportunity to do a cleaver part of the story where Ekko makes a mistake of killing an innocent (or something like that) and even with his power, it still hurts him and ends up being haunted mentally and physically for what he did where physically being by the warwick. Just fell like more thought could have been put into the cameos to make ekko develop as a character.
the blood thing isn't a metaphorical thing, it's a literal thing, as shown in his cinematic. He leaps a great length because the pov character cut his hand. If Ekko beat someone to a pulp Warwick wouldn't notice
@@stordoy^ it’s a flawed rationalisation by Warwick, which is what makes it such good character writing. He gains false reassurance that he’s not a monster from his rule, that’s all. It’s not actually vigilantism
@@stordoyWarwick was already chasing the character, before they cut their hand, presumably for things they did in the past. The literal blood at the end only lets him find the criminal using his scent. I don't think that it invalidates the metaphor.
@Darkprosper he literally sacrifices his own friend for his own survival, And despite this Warwick doesn't care for him.
kinda off topic but i love how you do your outros, it’s a perfect moment to reflect on the video, and just simmer with some brewing thoughts, and the wisdom in each one before fading to the music is just so relaxing and fulfilling, like finishing a long entertaining and satisfying documentary and watching the credits
Oh, yes, I agree, well described ^^
Something that always seems to escape the conversation when comparing a metroidvania to Hollow Knight is that HK is an anomaly. Team Cherry made so much more money than they could ever need that they decided to thank their fans and keep developing free content. That's insane! It's an impossible standard to hold other games to.
Hollow Knight was a game with tons of content even before updates adding more stuff to it.
I mean... y'know who else has made more money than they could ever need thanks to their fans, right?
@@TBSkyen it cant be riot i suppose
to be fair riot is a small indie studio, there's no way they'd have the money to work on this
that is exactly the standard that game studios should be held to.
24:35 "the only reason this chapter is included in the game seems to be to force a cameo from Jinx to happen" I will argue! that the other reason! is that they had a level they spent too much time on but didn't have the time to put it into the story proper, and it's *Jinx* themed already, so why not put her in there?
but otherwise yeah this whole video is very true.
I think that'snot how you build a story - you make a outline of the story frist then sink time and money into developing visuals for honestly one of the bigger levels in the game. So I'd say theory of "Jinx is good for marketing - put her in there" is more likely than them making a Jinx level and then having no idea how to put it into the story.
@@baxland2539 You would be surprised how often developers make a level for a specific theme and then realize that they should probably do something with it instead of scrap it and force a fight or level to happen with little narrative cohesion.
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 I'd not be surprised if there was a concept of this kind of level.. but there is nothing like remarkable in it's design that couldnt be repurposed for different level if they made it before they had final assets.. It's not like there are thematic-mechanics that would have to be scraped or something (unique to this level are the bouncy thingies that are hardly related to Jinx).
And I hardly doubt they literally make shit ton of high quality assets frist and then thought about how to include it into the story... I dont think you can make it as mid-sized indie studio if you're that reckless with your resources.
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 just look @ Uncharted: Drake's Deception. an entire ship graveyard level that doesn't make ANY SENSE NARRATIVELY happens because they've had that level from the start, and wanted for it to stay
With Camille being *besties* with Ekko, they could have kept that (if they really needed that) but AT LEAST make it more reasonable.
Let's imagine, on Ekko vs Camille, the fight is scripted, you auto-lose (kinda like in Mageseeker with Garen), and when Camille is about to kill Ekko, Future Ekko hops in and beats up Camille easily, and at that moment Camille realises killing Ekko is NOT an option, so she might as well be an ally with Ekko to stop Future Ekko. And this would be a nice comeback for later as a tactic to summon Future Ekko.
As for WW and Jinx, both need a revisit, they were cool bossfights but overall they felt like bait from Arcane to promote the game. They have little to no impact from narative standpoint. Jinx has some sort of impact, as in being a distraction, but that's where the thought ends. And WW felt so odd just mindlessly chasing Ekko, almost as if they disregarded the fact that some of his old self is still a bit there...
Gameplay, 10/10, but as a story it feels too odd
And I was looking forward to it, thinking that it was an auto-banger
So true. They could've had Camille 100% ready to smite Ekko out of existence as you said only to realize "oh no, this ain't it" and work with him out of necessity only to then slowly grow an appreciation for the boy genius. Considering the fact that her ex, Hakim, was a genius inventor and Camille seems like the type of person to value intellect, she might have a moment of remembrance and then grow to see Ekko's potential and see him as a friend that way.
@@trueblueedits4673 not necessarely a friend, but still if they really wanted them to get along, something like that was better than what we got
Another comment brought this up but I feel like Warwick could've been rewritten and used as forshadowing yo future Ekko's true nature.
Simply have him chase f!Ekko because he smells that there's blood on his hands but f!Ekko gives him the slip. Then he smells p!Ekko realizes they smell the same and partially lost in a frenzy thinks p!Ekko must've simply washed off the blood and hunts him down instead.
Then at the end of their chase he smells future Ekko again realize p!Ekko and him aren't the same and leaves p!Ekko to continue hunting f!Ekko.
Yeah, there were ways you legitimately could've made Camille and Ekko's dynamic work, they just needed to put a bit more effort into it.
Even if they were never truly "friends" by the end, seeing Camille have a single, solitary moment of genuine empathy for him at the end could've been powerful. And really should've been a CULMINATION of a very hard earned character arc.
Another amazing video, TBSkyen! I agree to all of them.
Another problem with the Camille "change of heart" is that... people who are not league players, would get misled with her real personality.
I've seen a lot of content creators who are hooked with Arcane, and almost all of them wants to learn more from the League of Legends universe. If they'd play converge, they'd think that Camille is a kind-hearted mother figure. 😂
Something I'd like to touch on:
Why would they not explore the history between Jinx and Ekko??? I get its not in the arcane-verse but there are small voicelines in different media that they do have some past connection from who jinx was before. If future ekko says "you can't trust your friends they all leave or betray you eventually", in present ekko's mind, the only real person in this game that could make him believe that isn't total bull, is expanding the past with jinx, before she started talking to the gun. And then the current friend group could have been an example of yes, some people do leave and betray you as they fight their own battles, that doesn't mean all.
We could have explored how a trauma developed because ekko thinks he wasn't able to or failed to "save" jinx leads to him manipulating things the way he does, using his trauma of failing to help a friend to snowball into what future ekko becomes and what present ekko must overcome. Then the Inx and Red plot line could have been re-written to be... well to be good, but still the point stands it would have fit the themes.
I agree with your point that the story could have been better with no cameos but as you mentioned as well, the story could have been better by properly using the cameos they did take on.
I mean, short answer: This game was in production before Arcane was complete. In fact both this game and Arcane were announced on the same day.
Presumably Riot wanted Arcane to be the big story that FINALLY REVEALED the true story behind Jinx and Vi, and Conv/rgence couldn’t go too deep into it, probably because Arcane hadn’t 100% finalised that story yet.
@@cartoonishidealism582 I mean sure absolutely, but at the same time this ultimately ended up being released two full years after arcane and while it would have definitely been more work to add in re-writes that late, so much of the story isn't the pre-animated scenes, it was talking heads.
They didn't even need to reveal anything, literally a couple added lines exclusively on ekko's end would have made a world of difference for those in the know. Is it costly and not ideal, absolutely but it isn't so costly and so not ideal it couldn't be done either.
5:08 I'm just here because I like your content and find it relaxing. I do not care about league of legends and would watch a two hour analysis of a phone book if it was on your channel
I think it is important to say often that as a game, Convergence is actually very fun.
That said, when it comes to Ekko's friends and their inclusion, I noticed the game actually does utilize them in a good way. After a mission, the game doesn't tell you to immediately go to the next zone. It tends to have Ekko wanting to decompress and think about what just happened. And he always wants to talk to his friends and community to do so. I felt that decision and the unique dialogue each time there did in fact show Ekko's sense of community. It was his reoccurring sense of a normal life.
Not Red though. You're right about her, if a little harsh. The game does imply she would become some kind of community leader in Piltover in the future? Great video in general.
In my free time I speculate a lot of scenarios about LoL, playing around with fanfiction, and one of my favourite characters to use is Azir.
Now I’m fully aware that Azir is a bad person and is a tool of a horrible system, but at the same time I like to play around with his character, imagine how he’d evolve and develop and become better. He loses his pride and sense of self after a harsh indenture, starts listening to other people, come to terms with his own trauma - including vile child abuse and cruel teachings by his imperial father - and finds his own sense of self beyond pomp and pageantry and tradition: a caretaker, a father, a protector, even a healer. So much so he abdicated his throne, works on the front lines to help his people and Renekton, and even comes to forgive Xerath - all stuff I took from Skyen himself and to whom I owe a lot.
I recently asked my followers “is this still the Azir you know and maybe love, or just an OC with Azir’s name and look”, and they seemed to be positive towards his portrayal.
I’m not sure how authentic it is but…
…at least I know for certain I did NOT do what they did with Camille.
Ooh boy is she NOT Camille.
I think one key difference between what they did with Camille vs. what you're doing with Azir is that you can't fake passion when it comes to writing. Like, a studio with multiple people working on a project will never feel as genuine/personal as, say, someone who writes novel-length fanfiction starring characters they love SOLELY because it makes them happy-- it's that sort of homegrown authenticity that (to me at least) differentiates a good story from a bad one. A good author should be just as invested as the audience is in their characters, and whomever was in charge of Camille's portrayal definitely missed the mark.
On a semi-relevant note, I'd absolutely love to check out your Azir fanfic, if you wouldn't mind linking it! Your portrayal of him sounds WORLDS better than the character cameos we got in Convergence, LOL
I REALLY don't understand why Red means a fucking thing to Ekko in this game, like we don' t talk to Red EVER. Like not to mention of anyone Ellie is clearly the way better option too, she's literally helpful to our cosmetic choices and is someone we can constantly talk to. Red was clearly shoved in at the very last moment.
As for Warwick, have him mistake FEkko scent in Ekko himself
There is already blood in FEkkos hands for what is implied and the fact that he is scared of Warwick meaning that Warwick has hunted him down before in his rewinds or/and in this attempt too
So his first encounter he smells faintly FEkko in the boy but not the blood, but thinks he is just trying to mask it so he chases him anyways
"You smell weak... No blood anymore... BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ME"
"Blood? What blood... Hey hay calm down bad doggy"
*chase and stuff*
On the second encounter he jumps on Mr Robot Biceps because he is 100% bloodtainted, but when he turns to Ekko he becomes conflicted the smell isn't exactly same and there is no blood so there is no hunting
"Your scent is too strong! You can't escape me!"
"Aww man I don't have time for this! Fine bring it on then! *Enter combat stance*"
"*sniff sniff* *flings back with hands on head* Grrrr... Still no blood... Grrrr... Not the same... Grrrr... Not you... *howl* *Runs towards and jumps over Ekko for dramatic effect*"
"Not... me...? What did I... What did he do..."
You know there is such a simple change they could have made to Warwick, have him encounter future Ekko and smell a shit ton of blood on his hands, so much that he goes crazy and start hunting present Ekko.
If Riot doesn't have a "Runeterra Bible" for their characters and settings, it desperatly needs one. We've already visited Piltover and Zaun about 5 times already and all those times we see the same characters being completely different from the last incarnation of them. Having contradictory events following the same characters is fine for a game without lore, but it's very hard to care about any Runeterra story if you know it will all be retconned later for the next thing. I didn't even bother to remember the names of Ekko's gang in this game, because like the Firelight, and like the Legends of Runeterra kids, they are completely gone from canon as soon as the game ends.
Honestly the sad truth is that maintaining such a Bible would probably be impossible.
Like, this isn’t just a single game, you’re managing lore and characterisation (which is in itself kinda subjective depending on how you interpret what is written about a character) for over a hundred individual characters across TV shows, novels, short stories, comics, a bunch of indie studios and their games, etc.
Not to mention the world of Runeterra is CONSTANTLY CHANGING. I mean just last year they were basically like “Hey actually, Zaun has had this powerful and famous CEO chem baroness this ENTIRE TIME and you’ve just never heard of her ever until right now. But she’s actually super important and she’s been around this whole time.”
Hell, Conv/rgence was in development LONG BEFORE LoR came up with their version of Ekko’s friends. Arcane was in development before Camille even existed.
How do you manage that? You can’t expect them to like… pause production on Arcane Season 1 in order to make sure worldbuilding details that the LoR team JUST CAME UP WITH are included in the show.
Nor can you expect LoR to stop adding any worldbuilding details for PnZ until you’re absolutely 100% sure how Arcane is gonna write the region.
So I don't know how much of Jinx and Ekko's backstory was fleshed out when this game was made, but assuming that it was you could have made a Jinx cameo work as the reason Ekko / future Ekko desire their time travel ability and or feel the need to control everything. Before Ekko had his time tech he lost everything, his old gang, and his mentor / boss and he couldn't do a thing about it and here is Jinx, a living reminder of his failures. This is why Ekko is driven to perfection, driven to keep his time travel powers and use it to help others so they don't turn out like Jinx.
Yes! When the video maker highlighted how Future Ekko wanted his past self to cut off his friends and that "you can only rely on yourself" (because everyone else is disloyal and will leave/betray him eventually), I thought Jinx's inclusion could've worked _perfectly_ to sell that message.
She and Red could've been foils: here are two of Ekko's oldest childhood friends, but one betrayed him and the other wants to know what's going on so she can support him. There's so much you could've done with that, and the fact that Jinx' cameo is in the same chapter focusing on Red only further drives that point him.
Warwick's role here is really bad and I friggin hate how out of all the ways they could take his character, they chose to turn him into big scary woofer.
Missed Opportunity I agree.
Especially when he could've been used as foreshadowing for Future Ekko's later heelturn (mistaking Ekko for his future self, who DOES have blood on his hands). That would've allowed them to keep him as a menacing threat, while also sowing seeds of doubt in the their relationship.
Your ability to analyze a story and express what doesn't quite work In it is incredible. I played the game, I felt that something was wrong, I was confused why I the game wanted me to care about Red, I got the sense that the Ekkos' relationship was rushed and that the cameos felt meaningless, but you were able to express it in such a way where I'm like "yes! that's it! that's exactly it"
All of these just to say, another great video from T B Skyen!
This game is extra wierd because Riot made the statement that from now on all the products they release would be a part of the actual canon. But this game doesn't fit that description at all because how actively in contridicts the canon characterisations and stories that were already established. Besides almost all of the champions not acting like themselves at all, are we just supposed to accept randome additions like Red as canon? We have seen Ekko in so many different things so why was Ekkos "oldest friend" never there, especially when we know so many of Ekkos friends very well already, like Kay for example.
At this point it just feels like the Runterra lore has absolutely 0 concistency and any given writer for any project is just free to make up whatever they want as long as it roughly fits, but all of it added up, it just leads to very bad world building.
I do love how this game canonizes the fact that if you want to get Jinx’s attention you just have to commit massive acts of vandalism.
I find it hilarious that they choose characters that fit within the game’s themes almost perfectly but still chose to butcher/never expand upon their roles and characterization in the story .The way this games portrays Camille and Piltover at large is also very concerning to me, it feel very “bad on both sides, neutral, moderate” to me (It’s Sylas all over again.)
Riot just loves to do this sorta thing all the time. Watch it, in five years they’re gonna be like „You don’t get it. The Void creatures are actually just misunderstood. All they want is to live in peace“
Things I feel could've been improved when it comes to the story of this game (I haven't played the game myself so I'm basing this all around thing's I've learnt through the video):
When it comes to Warwick, I feel like a better way to have portrayed him would have been for Ekko to meet Warwick when exploring *with* Future Ekko, and for Warwick to give chase after Future Ekko instead (but since you're with him, it would feel like he's chasing you both).
Would've been a cool way for them to hint that Future Ekko isn't all pure, and for the player to look back on and think "ohhh, so that's why Warwick was chasing me".
Camille shouldn't have been in the game, should've been Caitlyn.
But if Camille *HAD* to be there I'd say to have it be before she got a hextech heart and have her be more of an investigator and less combat-y. OR have her be like in the lore and only using Ekko because he's a good source of information (or some other generic "we're enemies but I'm not gonna kill you because you're usefull" thing).
Cherry on top could be for Future Ekko, before he removes the nuke, to do some time thingy that Ekko hasn't learnt yet to reverse Camille back to her human self as a way of garnering sympathy from players and also a "I may have done a lot of wrong, but deep down I just wanted to do what's best" kind of redemption. This would let them keep her sort of motherly personality at the end.
Friend group should've had more drama, like maybe they figure out that Ekko is hiding something, and over the course of the game try to sneak it into small talk when shopping.
"Hey, you've been missing a lot these last few days, everything ok?"
To then culminate in a blow up where they actually find out what he was hiding, and get angry at him for not letting them know. Making Ekko realize that what Future Ekko is teaching to him about distancing yourself and cutting ties is bad.
A small detail (that would take a lot of work and resources) would be that if you rewound time after talking with Future Ekko, he would say other lines, indicating that he's been rewinding to manipulate the conversation, the same way as he's done to other people.
I had a few more other things but this comment is already super long and will probably not even be seen soooo.... XDDD
The fact that I, a guy that is VERY interested and up to date on the lore had no idea this game had come out untill LAST MONTH does not bode well for it.
This game is screaming cut content to me. It seems like there were IDEAS for various cameos and connections, but they couldn’t put some things together, so they made a patchwork of content slapped loosely together.
Caitlyn was still recovering from the concussion Jinx gave her at the end of Arcane. That's why all her lines were given to Camille.
Ekko turned his relationships into one of those games with multiple dialogue options, like a dating simulator, or Dragon Age or Mass Effect: save before the dialogue and go back if the person doesn't like what you said.
Tbh connecting the Jinx stage shouldn't be too hard
Have Red invite Ekko to the Inx event during the sintixy collecting phase of the game
Naturally he rejects bc he is busy with collecting future gunpowder and such
Have FEkko call in like "Hey Ekko I've got some new info on where we could find some sintixy, it's on a teather in *Zaum area*"
"Oh cool... Wait teather? What theater?"
"Let me see... *Inx theater*, I'm on my way there rn"
"*Inx theater*?...WAIT WAIT let me take care of this one I-I-I know this theater very well, I know everything about it, I can pop in pop out very fast let me do it"
"Are you sure it should be quite fine... "
"Oh yeah don't worry about it man leave it to me I got you"
"Ok then I will search around some more cya"
"Oh yeah go do that cya bye"
*Call ends*
"REEEEEEEEEEEED"
Ekko accepts Red invitation and spends his time there looking for sintixy and such
Then he finds out Jinx had those sintixy bombs she stole from the bad guys and we get the sintixy
The recurring trend of champions that make sense to include for narrative/world reasons that would actually fit well only for that not to happen is happening too much in this story wh
Each cameo can add their input on why Present/Future Ekko is right, align themselves respectively, and present themselves as roadblocks. Jinx can run off to help Future Ekko, and explain why she thinks he's right/why she wants to help him (even for selfish reasons), and adds pressure for Ekko to hurry and find his future self. Warwick can just barely acknowledge Ekko and hang out in the background, only to become a real problem if let's say, present Ekko got blood on his hands from someone he was trying to protect like Red, then Warwick gets on him, adding more external pressure for what can be perceived as an accident.
Camille? She seems like she'd team up, lead the investigation, and persistently put Ekko down during their team up. She sees only his value, and the threat that he presents (especially so with his future self) with his time tech. She'd only get help with the investigation, keep her distance, then dispatch Ekko once she has what she wants. Adding an intense set back.
At each point, a choice has to be considered/made by Ekko. Sometimes a very hard one that time rewinding cannot fix or else it will just cause more issues.
This probably also sucks but damn
They could’ve hinted that Warwick encountered Future Ekko first and could tell he had blood on his hands, so he associates Ekko with a bad person. Since he doesn’t really ‘see’ and everything’s intense and distorted, he can’t tell the difference between Ekko and Future Ekko
Would also get it going that Future Ekko isn’t a good person
I've said this elsewhere before, but I am truly disappointed about the storytelling in this game. Ekko has been a character I played since his release, when I was like 10, and I was so excited to hear he was getting his own game. As you point out, there are tons of fantastic themes about the ethics of control, regret, learning, and the political strategy of radical community building in the famous of overwhelming economic exploitation and subjugation that are inherent to his narrative. Yet, this game really drops the ball on exploring that in any meaningful way. Jinx is a perfect example: There is an established friendship/closeness between these two characters (at least according to LoR and Arcane), and Ekko explicitly misses/regrets what has happened to her.
Given the direction they took with his parents and friends, there could easily have been some thematic/narrative cohesion between present Ekko's regret over what happened to Jinx and future Ekko's inability to let go of the control he has in his personal relationships and the damage that this need for control (and in some sense invulnerability has). It could've been a way to give us some narrative progression in present Ekko and Jinx's story: By seeing the damage that future Ekko's need for control has, Ekko could realize that he needs to let go of his pain, regret, and possibly guilt over what Jinx has become (mainly basing these presumptions about his mental state regarding Jinx on his voice lines in LoR and some of what I read from the bridge scene in Arcane). But instead, the story treats Jinx as a prop and barely mentions that these two apparently had a close relationship in childhood.
The cherry on top is we are probably not going to get another solo game featuring Ekko, and we don't know whether to expect any more advancement to be given to his story or whether this game even constitutes an advancement (I hope it does not).
YES! RED! Finally someone talks about it, it made me so upset! She had such a cool desgin, concept, there were little side lore fragments that implies that in diferent time lines she and Ekko became a couple, and yet the story treats her like garbage! Bad boyfriend aside (I think its fair to fall for someone by looks alone and have a shallow relationship for it) why the hell she would thought that the gang that workship jinx its cool? That was so out of the character the game establishes for her. I despised this with every fiber of my begin.
35:35 - 35:36 I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that Ekko, one of the most Zaunite people of all time actually touched Camille's buttox in an INCREDIBLY sus way, which is something that would have never happened.
It would be cool if Camile betrayed him at the end. As if she just helped because it was the best person to defeat his future self but now he is just a ticking bomb thats going to build a fricking bomb.
Maybe she mess with his time powers (since she knows about it) and you get a hard secret boss battle. We could end with Ekko thinkig he killed her and afraid of his future self while Camile stands up later im the scene saying something about how he lacks precision (maybe setup for a second game where she is the enemy?)
Wow, I was fully expecting Arcane season 2 to reveal that Corin Reveck was Singed’s true identity, after the foreshadowing in season 1, with many ensuing consequences. But instead that character was wasted here.
I mean that can still happen. Arcane is a different universe and they can do whatever they want as long as the story is good.
@@thelastcrow5660 Sure. It just weakens the brand if, across different products, the answers to questions such as “Who is Corin Reveck?” are different. It draws attention to the question of whether the various products, such as the Riot Forge games, Riot’s main games, and Arcane, have separate or shared continuity: the more fragmented it is, the less reason there is to care about any specific entry in the overarching franchise.
Singed being Corin Revack doesn’t really make sense in the context of the lore. Corin Revack is a kindhearted artificer who made prosthetic limbs and ran a shop with his daughter.
Singed is a biochemist who created chemical weapons for Noxus and kidnaps people off the street to perform horrific body horror experimentation.
Even in Arcane, turning his daughter into a machine would kinda be out of character for Singed because from what we’ve seen he’s all about mutation and chemicals and surgeries, not mechanical limbs and engineering.
Hey I come from the future and uh...
The fact that they took the only Piltover "bad guy" and made her a "good guy" is just... Wild. Character assassination of a literal assassin
So they have a section in the sump where Ekko is chased by a giant monster without any relevance to the wider story, and the monster doesn’t have any real character.
Is there ANY reason they didn’t use Dr. Mundo for this? Why waste Warwick? Use the guy who is just funny silly doctor man.
Probably because they were gonna rework Mundo. This game was in development as far back as 2019, which was two years before Mundo would get his VGU, so I assume they knew Mundo was gonna be updated.
Also well, it probably wouldn’t fit the scary tone they were going for for that specific scene
The thing is Camille’s inclusion can be good. She has so much potential, they just need to write her better. I think they were trying to make her likable since people of course don’t like rude people, but it’s not Camille. They can make her save Ekko but not because state that she save him because he’s an important part for the 2 cities to not blow up. They can make her do meticulously investigative work with absolute efficiency. In the ending, she could have appear with her leg blade bloody and say that the chem baron has been taken care of, what’s about the bomb? And she will walk away after hearing that. And even if they want to make her a nice person, they can still establish a way for her to be that. It feel like she do a 180 all of the sudden
11:45 I noticed that when I was playing Baldur's Gate 3 with Dark Urge. I would save before choosing and action that only dark urge can choose, only to see the outcome.
"Why the hell is jinx here". Because she's the most popular ADC and pretty much the face of league of legends, especially after Arcane. There is never any consideration as to if she should be somewhere, she's there by default.
We all know that, but you still need a good story reason voor it to make sense.
the funny thing is that it's right. jinx can be everywhere, but in this game she is in the most out of place possible
And now we know Corin reveck is singed. Huh.
I am actually a metroivania fan and not at all a lol player, but I love how you tell those little stories? analyse design, and all you talk about sometimes
I couldn't have put it better. I felt like i was supposed to care about ekkos friends but just didnt, especially red and her whole debacle with Chadd. Also 100% true on. the champion cameos, Camille feels like such a missed opportunity and i couldn't take her character seriously throughout the game at all.. somehow riot finally made this multiverse thing work for me cause i am glad the story isnt canon 😅
I think it could’ve been cool to replace the Inks chapter with a fight between Ekko and his friends. They notice something is up and when they physically won’t get out of the way it turns into a boss rush between the group. It could end with Ekko realizing the irony in trying to save his friends by beating them up or perhaps he continues to side with Future Ekko and the realization is saved for later
My personal opinion is; if you took camille's whole point in the story and replace her with vi, it makes the story so much better. The whole chapter about ekko at the concert would make sense cause vi told him to get some rest and let her reach out to some contacts she has. The fact that she has a connection with both plitover and zaun, the history with ekko as well as the last scene would make it more heartwarming and feel more true to their characters
I feel like it's very telling that of all the games that riot has announced, I genuinely forgot about convergence
Hey Skyen, I know this is a long shot for you to read this and it might be a long message so I don't really blame you if you skim it (you've got loads of other people to get to after all ahaha) but hearing the way you talk about storytelling and the ways a variety of genres and visual styles can be used to present it and how much this game disappointed you in all the potential it left on the table has reminded me that I should give you a massive, MASSIVE thank you. I've been watching your videos for a long time now, before I even buckled down and decided to legitimately pursue a career in art. You've been a significant inspiration for my interest and appreciation for character designs and the less verbal aspects of storytelling, things I had always liked but never really understood or felt I had the language or means to make my focus. I don't comment often, but I thought I'd leave one here as way of support since my financial situation doesn't allow me that avenue (yet!). You're doing good man, keep up the awesome work.
(P.S. This video was especially interesting as someone who is presently making my own fighting game, a genre that also doesn't always lend itself well to long fully developed narratives, in an attempt to try and show what's still possible in that space. Hopefully when I have more done I'll get to show you some of the work you've inspired!)
(P.P.S. Happy Pride Month)
The funny thing is I can absolutely see a story where Ekko of all characters breaks through the hard shell of the villainess Camille. Because Ekko, to me, is the most moral character in the whole Piltover/Zaun divide, he is by far the most Good person he isn't looking to 'heal the divide' but like he's never taken the position of "Do even a morally grey." And he is purely of Zaun, he is not of Piltover. Someone who could possibly show the worth of the city, show its light, show the good of it If a character could crack the cold heart of a villain who seeks nothing but destruction it would be Ekko. But that's also not the story they chose to tell. It is often interesting, for me at least, that a lot of the time I don't disagree with the idea, even the idea they went with, but I disagree with the conclusion. Future Ekko drives away everyone and works alone, Present Ekko is able to make the hag's heart half turn.
It really hurts when a game adds npcs just to be merchants, without leaning into their story
If you're one of the people TBS mentioned in the market for a Metroidvania specifically, Hollow Knight is probably the best ever made and is actually on sale for $7.50 right now. Buy it whether or not you were going to buy Convergence
2022 was a hell of a year, I feel ya. But things have been getting much better for me, and I hope they will for you too. You got this man!
While i agree it definitely shouldve been moved earlier in the story, the Inx and Jinx fight was quite enjoyable
And yeah, Camille was a little odd
I'm not familiar with her, but ekko casually inviting her into the hideout felt very off, like, should've been a little more distrust
29:16
Especially considering they could just have had him chase future ekko, and use that to drive the conflict. Why would someone who only hints murderers chase Ekko?(conflict ensues from there). They also could have had jinx sooner, as an example of why the unobtanium needed to be destroyed. These weren’t like, hard to come up with, and I’m no professional writer. It’s kinda wack how forced these cameos are
As someone who very much enjoyed this game, i do completely agree with most of these points and noticed them myself during my playthrough. Its a very flawed game, but I do love it for the art, music, and other parts that they actually did well.
before anyone talks about the story, i don’t understand why they released this game so close after mageseeker. especially since both games aren’t exactly cheap and both are directed at the same audience.
If they really wanted to 'both sides' the Piltover and Zaun conflict, it's even more baffling why they didn't include Caitlyn. She's literally 'one of the good ones' in every way.
so the story isn't just *bad* and only bad, but it has a lot of core thematic ideas that it ultimately really fails to deliver on and truly explore. and that 100% feels even worse. the disappointment that there COULD'VE been more there, that they were on the very cusp of it, that it had a lot of potential. that sucks a lot. hearing about the morality aspects of ekko's time travel adds SO MUCH unexpected depth to his character, it's a genuinely extremely intriguing narrative. i wish that it was worked on further and deeper than it was.
ultimately though, i don't doubt that it was simply due to development issues, and i don't blame the team per se.
Camille fits the "changed by technology" aspect but I also think she makes more sense as a boss fight gameplay wise. Caitlyn feels a lot more like an obstacle for a level where you need to keep moving, stay hidden or bait her into missing shots in order to progress. Camille's kit allows her to zoom around and actually make an interesting fight. Either wat I must say I appreciate them not just reusing the arcane cast.
Ah yes, Red Ekko's long time friend and maybe love intrest. Pay no attention to that weird cameo character "Jinx"
You know how you could've done something great that fits Ekko's plot, makes Jinx more relevent to the story and does something surprising?
Have Ekko ask Jinx for help disarming the bomb! It would be fascinating and funny to ask Jinx to NOT blow something up, but it fits the idea that Ekko needs to learn to ask people for help, and for Jinx to try and blow him up for asking, so you keep the boss fight. It looks like you could largely swap Jinx and Camille's roles in this narrative, maybe made Camille a recurring boss fight, and it'd work way better! Imagine if it's Jinx in that final shot trying to offer Ekko some comfort, this broken person trying to give him some reassurance....
(Ah, but then we don't get the importance of Zaunites learning to appreciate/work with their rich oppressors! *sigh*)
yeah sadly that could work maybe with Jinx from Arcane, but Jinx from the actual lore is still just early comics Harley Quinn. Completely fucking crazy.
@dedosdeceniza I don't know about that. Sure it feels like that but that's only because they haven't given her much to do or revealed much of her backstory.
Also, let's be honest. League Jinx will always be overshadowed by Arcane Jinx.
Yes! Thank you. Don't just have her be a one dimensional antagonist. She's one of the main mascots of the franchise dammit.
Thing is, you don't need Arcane Jinx to make this work. I was actually thinking more of her comic role. Even without using her past with Ekko, she's... not usually the mass murder for kicks type. Like, she's not above killing but this level of devastation to both sides doesn't seem to match her idea of fun. She blows up specific stuff, usually to annoy people.
Camille feels like she should be aligned with future Ekko. She obviously doesn't want anything to happen to Piltover. But stopping Zaun from getting this powerful tech while also killing half the people in it. Seems like a win win for Camille.
she did ally with him (technically) until he admitted that he was going to basically blow both cities out of existence.
The whole Inx chaper makes me feel like someone in the team had a bad breakup or romantic experience and went all "nice guy" about it.
"Women only want too date jerks that treat them like shit" type of stuff, ya know
There's loads of 'insteads' in the game.
Instead of Warwick, the game could've used either Twitch, Dr. Mundo, or even Urgot. Urgot even works with the 'you stepped into my territory' too, and Urgot would've made Future Ekko scared too, because he knows how unreasonable Urgot is and how dangerous he could be. As a plus, having Urgot's mechanical spider legs climb in the background as a giant shadow, or just having the skitters of his legs would've been quite the trigger for arachnophobes.
Instead of Camille, why not use Caitlyn instead? Works fine with the 'working with Piltover crowds' since Caitlyn too wanted the same thing (and did so with Vi too). Plus they both met in Arcane, so that's another story thread they could use.
Instead of Jinx, why not use Seraphine? Works with the 'fanatic fans' thing since Seraphine has Zaunite parents and did concert in Zaun too. There's even lore material that says Ekko and his friends attended her concert too. Can just make it so that Seraphine mistook him for those who're too fanatic and almost bombed the concert, so there's the boss fight. There's also even lore about how Caitlyn likes Seraphine too, so it would make sense why Caitlyn is there attending the concert, and make sense how Caitlyn would save Ekko from the boss fight with Seraphine and explaining to Sera that Ekko isn't her enemy.
Or if they really want to get Jinx cameo, then make Jinx the one who placed the bomb, and have Ekko's friends and Red attend the concert while Ekko didn't. Could have that moment where Ekko have to choose between dealing with his future self with ample time, or try to save his friends from Jinx's antics and race against time to find his future self.
It really did felt like the team behind Convergence just read the stuff from LoL's official website, and they probably didn't click on the 'read more'.
People coming to this game from Arcane looking for more Ekko are gonna be so disappointed 😔
well you definitely made me dodge a bullet here lol.
I guess I was expecting something that could tie in a bit of this into Arcane, but heard nobody talk about this so idk anymore.
The worst part is that it's so close to being decent. Move Jinx's chapter to the start, have Future Ekko use it to make a point about how people aren't reliable. Possibly leading into the fight where it's revealed Future Ekko is building a bomb. Have Warwick chase Future Ekko and Present Ekko takes the fall, and instead of Camille being helpful have Warwick intervene because he was chasing Future Ekko but smells the blood in Camille. Have Ekko confide in his friends with his dilemma, and every time Camille would have helped have his friends use little gadgets they invented.
Doesn't fix all the problems, but would have made a hell of a lot more sense.
I think they subbed Camille into Caitlyn's spot because there's no reasonable way for Caitlyn to just drop from the sky to interrupt a fight. Caitlyn still needs to walk places.
I feel like this game is actively working for the problem that the Lore has right now. It's a piece that seems to create its own spin on the lore and is more of a what if thing rather than feeling canon.
Riot mentioned that they didn't like that all their lore was a bit all over the place and that they rather have one canon than each game having their own little canon...
While Mageseeker or Ruined King progressed stories forward and filled holes in the lore of the characters we saw in them this game just creates another alternate version of Ekko.. well.. two versions of him ig.
Imo we should look at this game like it also was just another timeline.
It feels like Camille would have been better served as secondary antagonist. Better take? She uses Ekko to figure out what is going on, and when she learns about Future-Ekko and the Syntixi she hatches a new plot to work with Ekko enough to get access to the Syntixi. She would steal it and try to reverse-engineer it so it destroys only Zaun and not Piltover, THAT sounds like the League of Legends Camille. My take-away on why this played out as it did was Caitlyn WAS supposed to be there, but something happened mid-production. Either Caitlyn was going to be used in a future production which would conflict with Convergence, or maybe her voice actress wasn't available, or maybe Riot just said "no you can't use her for that." Whatever it was, it left the team without the character they had written the story for. So they had to try and re-work it, and it seemed like Caitlyn's spot HAD to be filled and in a way it wouldn't require a bunch of story re-writes. So they wrote in Camille's boss-fight, immediately turned her into an ally, and went with it.
I suspect Jinx suffered a parallel but different fate. If feels like they team wanted to tell a larger story, and they were planning it from the ground up, but Riot came down and gave them an updated (and shorter) deadline than they expected. Sacrifices had to be made, the Jinx plot was unceremoniously cut and Red took the fall. I feel they already had most of Jinx's voice-lines recorded and actress paid, so they cobbled that weird broken chapter just to tie things together shoddily. I mean you can't just cut out Jinx, marketing and all. That whole theory would explain why that chapter was so jarring and irrelevant.
As for Warwick, no idea there. I would assume Warwick was 100% marketing and they needed another champion. Then again on a quick thing, it is possible Warwick's fight may have been planned if the original story included Caitlyn. They could have written it as Warwick chasing Ekko because Future-Ekko had the "blood on his hands", and when it comes to time Warwick can't tell the difference. Caitlyn comes in to help in a Warwick boss-fight, and spring-boards into her helping Ekko instead of Camille. Would make more sense, Caitlyn may have been in Zaun on leads and she found them fighting. Fights over, they get to talking and she agrees to help him. After all the syntixi was going to level both Piltover and Zaun, it would have made more sense if Caitlyn was the Piltover who helps Ekko.
While Camille can use some more nuance and more consistency (aka cold, ruthless and calculating) portrayal, having her being outright villainous and trying to destroy Zaun also makes no sense since Piltover and Zaun are stacked on top of one another so anything that have a large impact on one city will also affect the other, especially with Zaun being the foundation that Piltover is sitting on so if Zaun is destroyed I guess Piltover will collapse suite. Furthermore, while they might have certain enmity, Piltover and Zaun also have a kind of symbiotic relationship, with their people moving between the two cities for trade, jobs, education and many other things, which means big negative things happening to Zaun will also affect Piltover, including both their citizens and economic interest. The situation in the game is pretty critical too, with factors outside of Camille's control so there's no time (like time travel) for her to be too calculating and scheming when the destruction of both Piltover and Zaun is at hand so I guess she would go out of her way to be more cordial, friendly and willing to help to get things done (although her being somewhat affectionate can rub people the wrong way). I think Camille is a better fit for this job, given her affinity for secrecy and espionage, just that she can be portrayed with more aloofness and her relationship with Ekko being more of a strictly professional alliance-of-convenience. She could be a ruthless killing machine but it doesn't mean she has to act like a murderous and scheming villain all the time and characters can certainly have other sides or development in personalities and way of operating to avoid being one-note people who's only known for 1 thing and keep being like that forever for the sake of "consistency".
Switch Camille with Caitlyn and Warwick with Twitch with minimal Dialoge changes, and release the Jinx episode as a DLC, and this game is ten times better
Or have the Jinx Tangent be a SIDEQUEST that you can participate in whenever you want. That way you don't have to pay extra money for it, Jinx still gets her cameo, and it doesn't have to disturb the flow of the story.
It might be that they weren't allowed to use Caitlyn because of Arcane? Idunno. That argument kind of falls apart because of Jinx's presence, but maybe there's something there?
On the idea that Camille is filing in for what should have been Caitlyn; the idea of a cop shooting a black teenager feels in bad taste.
I feel like the Camille recharacterization COULD'VE worked if they actually provided a build up and reasoning for it. It's not like there is absolutely 0 precedent for Camille still having human empathy and emotions seeing as in her bio and short stories there are moments that show even she admits she still feels and has regrets (albeit she represses them omega hard), the story just never built up to it.
Is it me or does the transactional dynamic between ekko and future ekko related to the core theme of the story?
I feel like Camille's role should have been given to Caitlyn like you said, but that doesnt mean Camille should be removed from the game per say. She could actually be a pretty good foil to Caitlyn, both could prioritize piltover over zaun, but while Camille is heartless and unmoving on it, Caitlyn isn't. Hell, even if you dont have Caitlyn against Zaun at first they could say she was more like Camille in the past, and Camille is that old priority taken to an extreme because Camille is litterally and figuratively heartless, and that again ties into the themes you talked about here.