The Developer was also a navy guy, not sure what he did but he wanted to make it as realistic as possible while keeping it only moderately complicated and fun.
As a submariner I'm having a hard time re-training PD to not mean Periscope Depth. I hear someone say, "PD", and my brain breaks trying to work it out in context.
Still laughing, as an intelligence guy for the army, my buddy was; “Dude you should play arma! Because we need a Zeus!” What does that do? “You plot units on a map, and then do battlefield tactics as OPFOR, and try to wipe out blufor…” What do I do every day Yesney? “Plot points onto a map.. and unit designation..” Exactly. I don’t want to do that outside of my job, on my off time. Thank you. After much hemming and hawing, turns out I’m a damn good OpFor Zeus for arms 3
The other kind of EP in the game comes in the form of Burn-Through-Sweeps (BRN) and illuminators. Both of these are a way to brute force your way through jamming by increasing the jamming ships radar signature to become more easily identifiable through more frequent and more powerful radar pulses.
Oh yeah that's true. My bad for mentioning that. Although my co-workers and I didn't believe it to be "true" EP in the real life sense it does make sense in the game sense! Thanks for pointing that out 😁
One thing to mention about coms jamming is that when you jam an enemy ship ( or you get jammed ) what it does is it basically makes it so that the ship bing jammed can’t see any tracks that aren’t within its radar range . As an example, if the friendly units detected an enemy ship and it’s not within the jammed ships radar range, the jammed ship will not be able to see it, it also is not able to see any misiles coming after it that aren’t within its radar sensors as well.
Real life radars don’t have infinite ranges even though electromagnetic waves spread endlessly and the decrease of amplitude (power) of these waves is not the only reason. Actually it’s related to how radars measure distance to the target. Radar sends an impulse and then measures the time it takes the reflected wave to come back. Knowing this time and speed of light it can measure the distance. But if the target is too far, the reflected wave will come back after the radar has already sent another impulse and it will calculate the difference in time between the second impulse and the reflection from the first one. Obviously it won’t show the real position of the target. This effect can be combated by increasing the delay between pulses, but the longer the delay, the less often we update the position of the targets.
Real life radars CAN have an infinite range inside of a vacuum (i.e. Space). In Earth's atomosphere RADAR waves have to fight anything that is in the atmosphere (humidity, solid particles, weather etc), plus not to mention refraction (sub and super) which bends RADAR waves down towards the earth slightly more than the curvature of the Earth. Although as you stated it wouldn't be useful outside of a few light seconds away from the transmitter/receiver
Great video so far! Pausing it just to mention, I don't know how comms jamming works IRL but in Neb, it can only stop reception of signals, not transmission, which was what you were trying to do in the test you set up there. Which means you don't comms jam spotters, you want to comms jam the brawlers who are trying to get track data from the spotters. Combine with radar jamming for even better results!
@@LeviathanGaming2 The IRL jam of transmission is only the case for links that require a handshake of some kind to properly transmit. If you are just transmitting a jammer won't stop you from doing that, the receiver has to see the jammer as louder than the transmitter to stop transmit. Now effectively this is often true because a jammer is usually omni-directional and louder than the transmitter would be, such as a soldiers handheld. But a jammer could never stop a warship from transmitting to a satcom by using a directional jammer pointed at the warship. I think given nebulous is much more like the second scenario than the first it's probably an ok abstraction.
@@nocare your first situation is not one I immediately thought of considering not many people know about link type of communications within the military but you are absolutely correct about that. Although over powering a receiver is what I mentioned in the video. I do believe you are correct where Nebulous does seem to take after your second situation after I did some more testing
Communications jamming only works on the receiver, not the sender. And while radar has infinite range, it does attenuate. The reason why it has a range is because the energy decreases based on 1/r² (same with jamming btw). And the reflection does the same. At some point the equipment, either ESM or the radar receiver is simply not sensitive enough to pick it up in the background noise.
Love this game . Former AW here ( old p3 guy ) . The only thing on this game that breaks reality hard in the name of fun is the weapon ranges. Future space battles will start at thousands of miles of range something a lot closer to the expanse episode 4 season 1. I mean in 2015 our last OHP frigate (before your time ) would out range all ships in this game just with harpoons . Not to mention any newer weapon systems . I understand these cut down ranges are in the name of fun but I look forward to the hardcore version of this game one day to start training space warfare officers. This all said this game is just a tactical blast ! Launching missiles around asteroids with a stealth platform doing spotting elsewhere is just amazing !
That reminds me of the multistage missiles in the Honor Harrington multiverse. Acceleration: 48.000g (48 thousand!) Range: 60 million kilometers - For comparison, that is the distance Earth-Venus. (There's no real range limit in space, so i guess that's till burnout) Not sure how they handle the light/timelag of over 3minutes during the final attack phase.
I hate that I'm only reading this comment now! I flew 2 tours with the P-3C before they were phased out and we transitioned to the P-8A. I miss those mission flying the P-3, dang plane was a true war horse! ❤️
@@LeviathanGaming2 I was a SS2 then an SS1 from 1990 to april 2001. Then i left for the "greener pastures". Of course sept 11 happened and i tried to get back in but they said no so i ended up a W02 in the army till retirement as kiowa turbine jockey. I had a really awesome time in p3 land. I wish i was 20 years older and had gotten to fly in the 60s, 70s, and 80,s in the cold war but alas i was born in the 70s so no luck there. The early 90s had alot of "action" but the late 90s were kind of boring. We did alot of surveillance and drug interdictions along with lots of photo recon. did 4 deployments in my 11 navy years and of course they were all awesome! I slept in a bed on land every night. AWs was one of those amazing ratings no one knew about. The community was so small. We knew alot of each other. The p8 was coming online as i got out. There are still p3s working in customs and a few other places. But p8s are the thing now. But im almost 50 and did 22 so ill leave the next generation to take up the slack. It was fun while it lasted!
As someone who has spent way to much time looking into space combat, I would say that both Nebulous and the Expanse are ludicrously far from reality, but that you are entirely right about longer ranges.
Probably the closest equivalent to realistic future space combat would be a strange sort of aerial combat where the majority of protection afforded by stealth is replaced with protection afforded by active protection systems - but a proper description is hard without a whole lot more words than this, of course.
Your conversation here reminds me of an old war game … how does a carrier air wing destroy a Kirov class warships … a lot of harpoons and tomahawks to overcome the AAM and their version “seawizz” (forgot the spelling … it’s been 2.5 decades) . Them a sub officer came up and said . One mark 48 at 5000 yards! Everyone felt stupid but he got the respect nods. The lesson was why overwhelm the defenses when you can bypass them . By the way I love your real life tactical thinking on the game mechanics:)
Maybe do an update with the comm jamming figured out and the new masquerade mechanics? Great content, truly one of the best Nebulous videos out there. Please keep up the great work.
Here when this has 4.7k views. Found out about this game from the spacedock channel and it's literslly the thing many people are looking for, but online marketplaces aren't brave enough to show people anything let's say with experiments
great explanation. Subbed immediately. somebody get this man a module for DCS World so he can explain radar there too. Will checkout the Battlebit stuff too
Would you consider a break down of individual ewar components? Individual radar, jammers, etc and ideas for use? I'd love to hear the thoughts of someone who has experience with radar operation.
The floodlight and spotlight systems can be used to increase the enemy’s effective radar cross section, I think. Not sure if this helps see through jamming though.
It does, though it depends on a number of factors. A narrow beam may be able to help detect the jammer ship or some of the ships it is covering but you need to get lucky with your coverage or have them locked before the jam starts. Alternatively the wide spotlight can help see things like missiles being covered by jamming, as it can be useful for some alliance vessels to hide hybrid launches with dual stealth coating behind jammers to ensure they only become visible at the last possible moment.
It does help to see through jamming, even if it's not efficient at it. There were periods where the meta was all about jamming and you could see fleets With 5+ jammers and 5+ floodlight systems !
Should i use radar as little as possible, every time when its turn own i felt it made me a bald head in full moon; in Highfleet, keeping radar on for too long always welcomes a full plate of surprises;
Obviously ranges in game are for the sake of balance, but irl radar in space would have shorter range than on earth. Both radars are effected by inverse square law, but space radar would only capture what is being directly reflected at it, no bounced waves since there is nothing to bounce it off.
Radar would have a greater effective range in space (few obstacles such as air) but it isn't likely to be useful beyond a couple of light-seconds distance. Also, the greater the distance, the less “real-time” the positional information provided by the radar because of the speed-of-light delay. Radar works better in a vacuum (i.e. space) not worse, the main problems is long distance tracking and a real-time picture.
@@LeviathanGaming2 Most of atmosphere is transparent to radiowaves. Only some longer wavelenghts are absorbed by ionosphere. Solid object obstructing LOS would work the same in space as they would on the ground. In simplified LOS scenario they would be equal. If additional aspects are considered like no indirect reflection for space radar, then it would receive weaker signal. How big that loss would be is beyond my capabilities to calculate. Light lag is an interesting thing, but it is irrelevant to signal strenght, because it is a function of distance not medium.
I'd say that the range could be justified by dust, with that much material in the area there would have to be a ridiculous amount of dust.. just a thought
@@LeviathanGaming2 if you're osp you can effectively jam every single type of missile with the exception of ARAD. With dazzler, jam, and coms jam. Might want to take a extra jam, and with the floodlight guided missiles you may have difficulty, but practically no one brings those.
And currently the COMM jammer itself is pretty weak, currently it takes 3 or 4 to do anything against even basic antenna arrays. Probably going to get buffed at some point.
Keep this man away from the War Thunder Forums
Lmfao
Don't tempt me 😁
Fr fr
The Developer was also a navy guy, not sure what he did but he wanted to make it as realistic as possible while keeping it only moderately complicated and fun.
Moderately complicated is quite the understatement
As a submariner I'm having a hard time re-training PD to not mean Periscope Depth. I hear someone say, "PD", and my brain breaks trying to work it out in context.
Still laughing, as an intelligence guy for the army, my buddy was;
“Dude you should play arma! Because we need a Zeus!”
What does that do?
“You plot units on a map, and then do battlefield tactics as OPFOR, and try to wipe out blufor…”
What do I do every day Yesney?
“Plot points onto a map.. and unit designation..”
Exactly. I don’t want to do that outside of my job, on my off time.
Thank you.
After much hemming and hawing, turns out I’m a damn good OpFor Zeus for arms 3
The other kind of EP in the game comes in the form of Burn-Through-Sweeps (BRN) and illuminators. Both of these are a way to brute force your way through jamming by increasing the jamming ships radar signature to become more easily identifiable through more frequent and more powerful radar pulses.
Oh yeah that's true. My bad for mentioning that. Although my co-workers and I didn't believe it to be "true" EP in the real life sense it does make sense in the game sense! Thanks for pointing that out 😁
One thing to mention about coms jamming is that when you jam an enemy ship ( or you get jammed ) what it does is it basically makes it so that the ship bing jammed can’t see any tracks that aren’t within its radar range . As an example, if the friendly units detected an enemy ship and it’s not within the jammed ships radar range, the jammed ship will not be able to see it, it also is not able to see any misiles coming after it that aren’t within its radar sensors as well.
Real life radars don’t have infinite ranges even though electromagnetic waves spread endlessly and the decrease of amplitude (power) of these waves is not the only reason.
Actually it’s related to how radars measure distance to the target. Radar sends an impulse and then measures the time it takes the reflected wave to come back. Knowing this time and speed of light it can measure the distance.
But if the target is too far, the reflected wave will come back after the radar has already sent another impulse and it will calculate the difference in time between the second impulse and the reflection from the first one. Obviously it won’t show the real position of the target.
This effect can be combated by increasing the delay between pulses, but the longer the delay, the less often we update the position of the targets.
Real life radars CAN have an infinite range inside of a vacuum (i.e. Space). In Earth's atomosphere RADAR waves have to fight anything that is in the atmosphere (humidity, solid particles, weather etc), plus not to mention refraction (sub and super) which bends RADAR waves down towards the earth slightly more than the curvature of the Earth. Although as you stated it wouldn't be useful outside of a few light seconds away from the transmitter/receiver
just modulate the signal such that each pulse is identifiable.
Great video so far! Pausing it just to mention, I don't know how comms jamming works IRL but in Neb, it can only stop reception of signals, not transmission, which was what you were trying to do in the test you set up there. Which means you don't comms jam spotters, you want to comms jam the brawlers who are trying to get track data from the spotters. Combine with radar jamming for even better results!
Ahh that makes sense. Comms jamming IRL usually will block the target from transmitting and receiving and that's what I was testing
@@LeviathanGaming2 The IRL jam of transmission is only the case for links that require a handshake of some kind to properly transmit.
If you are just transmitting a jammer won't stop you from doing that, the receiver has to see the jammer as louder than the transmitter to stop transmit.
Now effectively this is often true because a jammer is usually omni-directional and louder than the transmitter would be, such as a soldiers handheld. But a jammer could never stop a warship from transmitting to a satcom by using a directional jammer pointed at the warship.
I think given nebulous is much more like the second scenario than the first it's probably an ok abstraction.
@@nocare your first situation is not one I immediately thought of considering not many people know about link type of communications within the military but you are absolutely correct about that. Although over powering a receiver is what I mentioned in the video.
I do believe you are correct where Nebulous does seem to take after your second situation after I did some more testing
Communications jamming only works on the receiver, not the sender.
And while radar has infinite range, it does attenuate. The reason why it has a range is because the energy decreases based on 1/r² (same with jamming btw). And the reflection does the same. At some point the equipment, either ESM or the radar receiver is simply not sensitive enough to pick it up in the background noise.
Love this game . Former AW here ( old p3 guy ) . The only thing on this game that breaks reality hard in the name of fun is the weapon ranges. Future space battles will start at thousands of miles of range something a lot closer to the expanse episode 4 season 1. I mean in 2015 our last OHP frigate (before your time ) would out range all ships in this game just with harpoons . Not to mention any newer weapon systems . I understand these cut down ranges are in the name of fun but I look forward to the hardcore version of this game one day to start training space warfare officers. This all said this game is just a tactical blast ! Launching missiles around asteroids with a stealth platform doing spotting elsewhere is just amazing !
That reminds me of the multistage missiles in the Honor Harrington multiverse.
Acceleration: 48.000g (48 thousand!)
Range: 60 million kilometers - For comparison, that is the distance Earth-Venus. (There's no real range limit in space, so i guess that's till burnout)
Not sure how they handle the light/timelag of over 3minutes during the final attack phase.
I hate that I'm only reading this comment now! I flew 2 tours with the P-3C before they were phased out and we transitioned to the P-8A. I miss those mission flying the P-3, dang plane was a true war horse! ❤️
@@LeviathanGaming2 I was a SS2 then an SS1 from 1990 to april 2001. Then i left for the "greener pastures". Of course sept 11 happened and i tried to get back in but they said no so i ended up a W02 in the army till retirement as kiowa turbine jockey. I had a really awesome time in p3 land. I wish i was 20 years older and had gotten to fly in the 60s, 70s, and 80,s in the cold war but alas i was born in the 70s so no luck there. The early 90s had alot of "action" but the late 90s were kind of boring. We did alot of surveillance and drug interdictions along with lots of photo recon. did 4 deployments in my 11 navy years and of course they were all awesome! I slept in a bed on land every night. AWs was one of those amazing ratings no one knew about. The community was so small. We knew alot of each other. The p8 was coming online as i got out. There are still p3s working in customs and a few other places. But p8s are the thing now. But im almost 50 and did 22 so ill leave the next generation to take up the slack. It was fun while it lasted!
As someone who has spent way to much time looking into space combat, I would say that both Nebulous and the Expanse are ludicrously far from reality, but that you are entirely right about longer ranges.
Probably the closest equivalent to realistic future space combat would be a strange sort of aerial combat where the majority of protection afforded by stealth is replaced with protection afforded by active protection systems - but a proper description is hard without a whole lot more words than this, of course.
Your conversation here reminds me of an old war game … how does a carrier air wing destroy a Kirov class warships … a lot of harpoons and tomahawks to overcome the AAM and their version “seawizz” (forgot the spelling … it’s been 2.5 decades) . Them a sub officer came up and said . One mark 48 at 5000 yards! Everyone felt stupid but he got the respect nods. The lesson was why overwhelm the defenses when you can bypass them . By the way I love your real life tactical thinking on the game mechanics:)
Maybe do an update with the comm jamming figured out and the new masquerade mechanics? Great content, truly one of the best Nebulous videos out there. Please keep up the great work.
Comms jamming works best against OSP civie ships that rely on spotters for their tracks. Used correctly it can nullify them
Former Air Force 1A451 here. That was me running the ID matrix!
Isnt EW really just funny photons having a goof
whoopsy. just gave the enemy stage 3 lukemia
Here when this has 4.7k views. Found out about this game from the spacedock channel and it's literslly the thing many people are looking for, but online marketplaces aren't brave enough to show people anything let's say with experiments
great explanation. Subbed immediately. somebody get this man a module for DCS World so he can explain radar there too. Will checkout the Battlebit stuff too
Antiradiation missiles?
Vtol VR recently added some nice ECM features if that floats your 5th gen TomCat / aka JamCat.
Would you consider a break down of individual ewar components? Individual radar, jammers, etc and ideas for use? I'd love to hear the thoughts of someone who has experience with radar operation.
Sounds sus lol
The floodlight and spotlight systems can be used to increase the enemy’s effective radar cross section, I think. Not sure if this helps see through jamming though.
It does, though it depends on a number of factors.
A narrow beam may be able to help detect the jammer ship or some of the ships it is covering but you need to get lucky with your coverage or have them locked before the jam starts.
Alternatively the wide spotlight can help see things like missiles being covered by jamming, as it can be useful for some alliance vessels to hide hybrid launches with dual stealth coating behind jammers to ensure they only become visible at the last possible moment.
It does help to see through jamming, even if it's not efficient at it. There were periods where the meta was all about jamming and you could see fleets With 5+ jammers and 5+ floodlight systems !
Should i use radar as little as possible, every time when its turn own i felt it made me a bald head in full moon; in Highfleet, keeping radar on for too long always welcomes a full plate of surprises;
Obviously ranges in game are for the sake of balance, but irl radar in space would have shorter range than on earth. Both radars are effected by inverse square law, but space radar would only capture what is being directly reflected at it, no bounced waves since there is nothing to bounce it off.
Radar would have a greater effective range in space (few obstacles such as air) but it isn't likely to be useful beyond a couple of light-seconds distance. Also, the greater the distance, the less “real-time” the positional information provided by the radar because of the speed-of-light delay. Radar works better in a vacuum (i.e. space) not worse, the main problems is long distance tracking and a real-time picture.
@@LeviathanGaming2 Most of atmosphere is transparent to radiowaves. Only some longer wavelenghts are absorbed by ionosphere. Solid object obstructing LOS would work the same in space as they would on the ground. In simplified LOS scenario they would be equal. If additional aspects are considered like no indirect reflection for space radar, then it would receive weaker signal. How big that loss would be is beyond my capabilities to calculate.
Light lag is an interesting thing, but it is irrelevant to signal strenght, because it is a function of distance not medium.
At the ranges Neb is played at, radars would have no problem seeing everything. RL aircraft lock each other from 100+ nmi away.
@@saintsword23 Ranges in game are so close you could just use WW1 style visual spoting.
Ya, I'm in agreement this is the one in game thing that is completely unrealistic.
Love this game. Love the commentary
As for the EWar limitations, I blame the furry that helped make this game.
I'd say that the range could be justified by dust, with that much material in the area there would have to be a ridiculous amount of dust.. just a thought
The coms jammer is uniquely for command guided missiles. I don't believe it's meant to prevent coms between ships. It should tho
Huh I never thought of trying that. Imma try that out!
@@LeviathanGaming2 if you're osp you can effectively jam every single type of missile with the exception of ARAD. With dazzler, jam, and coms jam. Might want to take a extra jam, and with the floodlight guided missiles you may have difficulty, but practically no one brings those.
Coms jamming is to be aimed at the receiver, not the transmitter.
And currently the COMM jammer itself is pretty weak, currently it takes 3 or 4 to do anything against even basic antenna arrays. Probably going to get buffed at some point.
with love, from Russia
One developer is a Chad.. another a Virgin.. who shall strike third?