“Why Christians get FRUSTRATED with you” w/ Jordan Peterson
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
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In this clip, Matt Fradd talks about heaven and asks if Jordan Peterson believes in life after death. The conversation shifts as Matt asks Jordan why he doesn't just come out and say he's a believer. Why does it avoid answering directly.
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A simple “no” would have been fine.
You missed his point. He's saying that it's impossible to not believe in God.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 He's sidestepping whether he believes that there is a truth bearer to this truth
Obviously it's possible to not believe in God
Any simple response would have been fine to those who avoid complexity.
@@ryanl5817 you obviously missed his whole point
Wonder if when his wife asks him to take out the trash, he responds “well…it depends on what you mean by take!”
“Honey, you’re asking the wrong framework of question.”
Such is the way of the philosopher
All she have to do is give Jordan THE LOOK.
And says three Hail Marys.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Jordan knows what he is doing. It is not that these questions are complicated for him to answer, he just knows that what he believes is atheistic to the Christian framework.
Or...
(And this could be a lot of mental gymnastics but I think there's a non-zero percent chance it's true).
He doesn't come right out and say it because he would lose the non-believers who have found faith after they've listened to him talk about the Bible. He meets them on their materialist level and proceeds to break down the mental barriers.
You have to realize, most atheists don't even see value in the Gospels, so you need to start the conversion on that level. I think if he were to come out as a hardcore Catholic, for example, it would make all the believers happy, but he would lose the ones who need it the most.
Again, mental gymnastics for sure, but if JP is sincere in everything he talks about, then I don't think it's impossible.
The main alternatives are:
1. He's a grifter.
2. He's an atheist and doesn't want to say it.
3. He's 100% honest and doesn't even know how to begin to categorize true belief.
he is a smart bizznes man
@@MasterofLightning i think everyone is missing the point hes making, he presents God as an "IS" rather than an "IF", so he doesn't like the typical "do you believe in God" because that implies basing it on evidence, which he finds it as the wrong way of thinking about God because God is the very act of BEING and if God is the ACT OF BEING then you dont need evidence to prove God existances because he just IS, TO BE by definition so he finds the question "do you believe in God" as utterly useless, He has the correct way of viewing God. Rewatch any video where hes asked with this question " do you believe in God" after you read this comment and you will understand what hes saying
^ I just attended one of his lectures. His daughter did a quick audience poll in the intro and, by applause volume, the audience was at least 75% Christian. If he was a grifter or just doing this as a business, he’d identify as Christian because that’s most of his audience.
@@sam_b if that's the case then that is extremely misleading because he is using The Bible to make the case for God's existence and character. He knows a majoriy of his religious audience are Christians, and this conception of God that you are putting forward, if he also shares it, is not the Christian one. God is an actual entity in the Christian framework, not just one's conception of BEING. I do not like the misleading part of this. I have listened to Peterson for years and read his books, at best he is agnostic. But he knows that if he draws a line in the sand he will lose people on either side of his audience. Being a professor, he knows a lot of people's conception of God but somehow likes to make it seem like he doesn't. It is ok to have one's own conception of God, just be clear and make it known, because you have made it your business to "spread the word". Tell the people how your conception of God differs from the mainstream one (yes, there is a mainstream conception and it is very easy to understand. People believe God to be an actual being with thoughts and intentions. Only theologians and academics of his sort have this deeply nuanced view of God that cannot be defined). All this deepening the meaning at every turn to avoid answering directly is intentional, and he knows either he loses respect of the scientifically minded material atheists (which makes up a bulk of the scientists) or he loses the Christians. Either way, this has to stop. You cannot write books, give lectures, and tour the world preaching about the value of God then act insulted when asked whether you believe in God or not. There is no excuse for this. I love Jordan and he, ironically, made me realise the importance of beliefs. But, I have stopped believing he finds the question too deep to answer because I have seen him answer similar questions with no problem. If someone can ask him, "Do you believe in the Prophet Muhammad?" I doubt he would do all this filibustering. They asked him, did the events in the Harry Porter books happen historically. He said no they did not. So it is not the nature of the question, he is deliberately doing this so that he can remain in the center and have his cake and eat it too.
He’s so close, but he’s simply not there yet. God is not “the call to adventure”; He is the one who calls. He is a Person, not a force, or a narrative theme, or however Jordan would phrase that.
God is a person??? I for sure hope and pray for you that you don't believe that
@@user-vd7br8ck6xGod is actually 3 persons in 1 being. Try that on for size
@@user-vd7br8ck6xwho's God to you?
This is why we have a bunch of atheists, because of people like you. There is no man in the sky.
@@user-vd7br8ck6x Person is part of the universe, emergent from bedrock reality. Your pet is a little person, a little Person, a tiny unique spark of the great Person. Every entity is Person. Consciousness is Person. Why would the Creator not be Person ?
Only grace will break Mr. Peterson our of his Jungian framework.
Be properly respectful. Capitalize the G in Grace and as he is one, call him Doctor. Reality is fractal: what level are you at?
After watching the video a few times, I think you missed his points, entirely.
The comment section on this channel has been a huge cringe, lately.
U dont even know what the Jungian framework is. U wouldn't condemn it...if ya did.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 I think the Papists are cringing because Dr. Peterson is pointing the Way to Eastern Orthodoxy. His coat is ☦️ icons, people. C’mon. He is all about Right Teaching and keeps Jonathan Pageau as his Right Hand man very much on purpose.
The problem is the Jungianism. It’s his Existentialism.
But it’s also his Achilles heel, because he’s not a traditional Existentialist, and where he diverges from what is normally contingent of that school of thought is precisely where Essentialism more coherently argues for what is most integral in reality (“essence precedes existence”).
Sounds like a really convoluted way to say he’s agnostic
@stuartist
Thank You! IMO He Is Close though.
lol
No he isn't you missing the point hes making, he presents God as an "IS" rather than an "IF", so he doesn't like the typical "do you believe in God" because that implies basing it on evidence, which he finds it as the wrong way of thinking about God because God is the very act of BEING and if God is the ACT OF BEING then you dont need evidence to prove God existances because he just IS, TO BE by definition, He has the correct way of viewing God. Rewatch any video where hes asked with this question " do you believe in God" after you read this comment and you will understand what hes saying
You must be an atheist or an agnostic yourself for saying this, no way someone that has a relationship with God would say this
I, and I imagine many others, find his view of Christianity one we can identify with.
Pretty clear that he see's the utlity of believing in Christ psychologically. But these people who say he is close to becoming Catholic, I don't really see it.
No I dont see it.I don't see why people go so gaga over this guy.All he does is give psychobabble..Read Imitation of Christ by Thomas A,Kempis or Introduction to the Devout Life by St.Francis de Sales, the works of St.Thomad Aquinas, St.John of the Cross, etc. These works have stood the test of time and so has the bible, read them .
Oh my gosh he is literally wearing a suit with Jesus all over him and writing a book called “We who wrestle with God”. He is a strange thinker 100% but he is deeply profound. Maybe it’s because I listen to him in a bunch of different forums but Christ has captured this man in such an aggressive way it’s scary.
@@Nrev973 I could see him becoming Orthodox but not Catholic.
What the problem is with JP is that the Bible itself says “believe” or “belief” is the right question. It may not end there but it certainly starts there.
"Belief is an existential commitment, not a statement of fact."
In other words, it's impossible to make an existential commitment to the 'belief' of atheism, therefore atheists do not actually exist, and the 'question' of God's existence is absurd.
"Who do you say that I am?"
In my opinion its the most honest answer we can give. When Jesus questioned his disciples regarding leaving him, they responded "to whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life". This has so many levels of confirmation in it. "To whom shall we go", what are our other options? This is an acknowledgement of the abyss that is out there without faith.
"You have the words of eternal life", this is an acknowledgement of the divine breath, the truth, the ability to form out of nothing something that gives us meaning and hope.
My call to those who are Christians is to let go of the notion that you have faith and hold dear to God, when this occurs you realise that its actually God who has faith in you and is holding you. Once that really sinks in the ability to answer becomes just an acknowledgement of what you have been shown. This is the true witness we are called to be..
Yeah god does bet on us .. what you said is so sweet and true..its all about trust ❤
Greets from Germany and god bless!
Jordan: it's like asking what color is a musical tone, the framework is invalid
Me: synesthesia exists and some of our greatest art is derived from it. It's not the framework is wrong it's that you are rejecting the framework.
This isnt meant to be an attack on Jordan big fan but sometimes he seems unwilling to accept maybe the thing is just the thing and not a 20 layer deep metaphor. Sometimes the curtain is just blue and not a representation of the author's depression.
Synesthesia is a disorder.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Country_of_the_Blind?wprov=sfla1
U missing the point hes making, he presents God as an "IS" rather than an "IF", thats why he doesn't like the typical "do you believe in God" question because that implies basing it on evidence, which he finds it as the wrong way of thinking about God because God is the very act of BEING and if God is the ACT OF BEING then you dont need evidence to prove God existances because GOD just IS, TO BE by definition so Jordan finds the question "do you believe in God" as utterly useless and meaningless thats like saying "do you believe in exsisting" it makes no sense. Jordan holds the Aquinas's view of God "Ipsum Esse Subsistens" although he just words it differently.
I understand the issue is that strickly speaking an atheist materialist could claim they believe in the sum of all being as A God. Carl Sagan's "the universe is everything that is was or ever will be" spring ls to mind, the do you believe in God question is more specific to The God who has a mind, will, and spirit rather than being a generic force that would die with the universe. The call to adventure dies with the adventurer. The thing that rejects improper sacrifices dies with an end of sacrifice. These descriptions put God contingent on creation rather than the other way round. Unless the thing you believe in has a mind it's not God.
@@scurvydog20 Jordan isn't claiming that, Look when he says spirit of adventure thats him saying in other words God calling upon you, God isn't an item in this world he isn't of this world God is the very act to be it self. I AM WHO I AM. Ipsum Esse Subsistens. when you say "do you believe" you are charaterising it as an IF statement. BUT there is not IF question when it comes to God because GOD IS WHAT HE IS. ITS NOT A MATTER OF BELIEF BUT ACCEPTANCE
This is the same gibberish I get from my four year old when I ask if he snuck a popsicle.
“Your actions echo in eternity” is abundantly clear to me. It sounds as though he is suggesting that the best explanation of life after death is solely your actions being remembered by others on earth, after death. So one’s words and actions continue to live after your bodily death is as far as his beliefs go.
In my opinion, this is the clearest Jordan has been about his stance on religion. He does not believe in God in the Christian sense.
It seems as though he has created something new. A new version of post modernism with a hint of Christian traditionalism.
IMO Dr. Peterson boiled his answer on the afterlife down to the existential commitment that he has made -- he lives as if his actions have eternal consequences. It has nothing to do with how he is 'remembered', and he most certainly IS NOT A POST-MODERNIST. How in the hell would a post-modernist claim that his actions have eternal consequences?
Think about it. You can live as if your actions have eternal consequences or you can live as if your actions are ultimately meaningless (after you die). This is one of the most fundamental decisions that everyone has to make. Maybe you wanted JP to give a detailed description of Heaven? He's giving you the MOST USEFUL implementation of the answer to the question. How is "The streets are paved with gold," useful to how you live your life, and how you think about the question (especially for people who are unsure what to believe)?
He said that the separate things that manifest the biblical monotheistic god are true regardless of your faith and belief.
I think he finds the simple questions to be too simple to address the reality of the situation.
I think this is a lot different than the traditional christian sense, but it also, in a way, has a lot more to say about the reality of things.
It's also very clear that he doesn't take Christ or the Old Testimate lightly whatsoever.
I don't know whether or not you could define him as a Christian or non-Christian. He's never denied Christ as far as I know, all I've ever seen him do is honor him.
But I don't think he'll ever answer with a simple yes which... Really shouldn't be that hard... I just think it's his personality to inquire and talk so much.
Not a good answer. I respect Peterson, but it's a simple answer. Everyone can answer this question, but for some reason he can't. I don't buy it. It delegitemizes him, especially from teaching the Bible.
And so many Christians are running to this man. They are telling them that this psychobabble has done a better job for them than reading God´s Word!!!!!! Christianity is truly in trouble.
Which nobody reads anymore because it's now become a hindrance. As the Molochians have also overstayed their welcome in the human race
You missed his point -- there is no valid non-belief position, because atheists cannot make an existential commitment to their 'belief'.
He's saying that there's no such thing as not believing in God, and from my experience, I agree. Atheists do not exist.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894you're getting sucked into his word salad.
@@vtorious9102 No, what he said was logically coherent, and matches my own personal experience in life.
Show me a man who lives as if atheism is true, and I'll show you a psychopath. Show me an atheist society, and I'll show you a stack of a million corpses.
Jordan Peterson has brought so many people to Christianity. We should be thanking this man and praying for him.
No. He's demystified Christianity and separated the good from the tribal and Savage. Which is what we must all do with all religion eventually
@@whynot1548 it holds no value if God ultimately does not exist. He's not demystifying anything. He isn't always coherent in his viewpoints, either. He at least recognizes the practical but I hope his wife encourages him to pray. Secular Christianity is an absolute relativism disaster waiting to happen.
In other words, "I'm not capable of fully knowing one way or the other. But what I can do is attempt to live a life that prepares me as best as possible in case there is. And in the process, I'll boldly and courageously take on the adventure of life and dispel with bitterness and resentment at the destruction that I will inevitably meet at the end. And if I've lived courageously enough, it will justify my suffering and hopefully leave this world a better place for the lives that follow." I think this is Jordan's most honest way to answer that question.
Great comment
I’d be much more inclined to give Christianity a chance if the focus was more on the attitude in this comment vs “the only thing that matters is whether you think God is literally a magic guy in space”.
@@Scantronimus466Catholics and Orthodox Christians made that clear, "God is not a being among beings"
@@Scantronimus466 That’s the exact focus in Biblical Christianity. “Believe” is not a mere acknowledgement of existence.
Nominal/cultural “Christians” have drastically distorted the faith into a cheap, spiritual fire-insurance policy: “Just believe in the guy and you’ll avoid Hell.”
@@seanc.mcnally2118 I appreciate that
“He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household.””
Acts 16:30-31
“Do you believe?” is indeed the correct question. Stop evading the question. For a couple thousand years, mankind has been called to “belief” in Christ. To say “it is the wrong question” is suggesting that the Church has asked the wrong question for centuries? I don’t think so good sir. He is deceived and doesn’t want to answer it directly. His sophistication has limits. I’m continuing to pray for him and that he opens his heart to the Lord.
AMEN! 💯
So belief is a choice? Even if in our hearts deep down we know we don’t believe? I don’t understand. You can’t force belief.
Peterson doesn't get how arrogant his stance is, even compared with some atheists.
"Wrong question"
Not according to the vast majority of Christians since the Apostolic times.
Saying "wrong question" is a different way to say "I know better about the Christian faith than basically all Christians since the beggining of their faith 2.000 years ago!".
What you say might apply to Catholics, even more... they think of themselves as Muh One True Church, and anybody who says something they've never heard before is automatically wrong and an evil dumb dumb.
The host asks him questions, he gives his honest answers, and YOU project that he means "I know better about the Christian faith than basically all Christians since the beginning of their faith 2.000 years ago!"
Why don't you refute anything he says, instead of arrogantly dismissing his words?
"Belief is an existential commitment, not a statement of fact." -- go ahead and disprove that.
Atheists cannot make an existential commitment to the belief of atheism, society crumbles (paraphrased) -- disprove that, if you like.
Your actions echo in eternity. -- disprove that.
Are you going to arrogantly dismiss him, because he's not a Catholic, or are you going to disprove his words?
He's answered this many times before, and the recurring response he gives is, "I believe as though God exists," which is essentially what a cultural Christian/Christian atheist would say, although he hasn't pigeonholed himself to either of those labels.
Mikhaela once said that her father taught them, ever since they were kids, the psychological significance of the Bible but not that what it teaches is real and true. JP is not interested in the correspondence theory of truth but in the pragmatic one
The heart of postmodernism!
Nobody ever said "It is not that deep bro'" to Jordan
Because it is
No, you missed his point. It's deeper than you think. I had to watch it about 3 times.
He's saying that """atheists""" are unable to make an existential commitment to what they say they believe, therefore a non-belief (in God) position DOES NOT EXIST. Therefore, the question is from an invalid framework, and totally absurd.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 What is an existential commitment?
I also don't see why a failure to live up to your beliefs means that you don't actually believe what you believe.
@@Raadpensionaris An existential commitment means that you must live something, in order to truly believe it.
Show me an atheist that actually lives with the logically necessary consequences of atheism -- human life would have no value, and life would be totally pointless. There can be no morals. IMO the best they can achieve is some kind of hedonistic psychopathy -- the life of a criminally insane serial killer/thrill seeker... but who actually LIVES like that? Atheists are unable to make that existential commitment.
It's not so much about 'failure to live up to your beliefs', but rather more like someone who says they are sure a certain stock is going to skyrocket, and recommending that you buy it. Sell everything you own, and buy this stock, because they're sure of it.
But when you look into it, it turns out they haven't actually _purchased_ any shares of this stock -- they simply parade around, hyping it up. They're in every comment section, touting Muh Spaghetti Monster, but in the end, they live as if human life has value. They can't find the guts to even buy one single share of atheism.
Because Jordan realized that it IS actually THAT deep
Jordan is the ultimate cop out king.
It’s the “wrong question” because he has the wrong answer. Seems like the man is pedaling Gnosticism just like the rest of the self-help gurus.
He's saying that it's impossible to make an existential commitment to the 'belief' of atheism, therefore the 'question' of God's existence is absurd -- there IS NO NON-BELIEF POSITION.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 he's saying he's an atheist that wants to keep gifting a religious scholar.
@@Reloading20 Incorrect.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 That is not what he was asked.
@hxhdfjifzirstc894 but if God is not the arbiter and this is all just some strange natural occurrence then his viewpoint holds no integrity or validity. Without God, outside of ourselves, life is meaningless and has no purpose even if we intuit things that are otherwise true - they're still ultimately meaningless. He can't answer the question directly. Asking him if he believes in an afterlife was a simple way to get him to finally answer the question which he is dodging. He's an agnostic.
"Jordan. Do you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He died and rose again from the dead?" That's the question Jesus demands we answer.
No, he doesn't, if he did, he would have said it already. I think he's being a tool of Satan, he does what Satan does, he takes Scripture and give it a false meaning. He said on this same interview that he does know what John 14:6 means, something totally different of what 2000 years of Christian history says it means. So, he's saying that all Christians in history got Scriptures wrong and he got it right. 🤦♂
Exactly.
Even the demons believe. And tremble. Merely believing that it happened, isn't enough.
"YOUR ACTIONS ECHO IN ETERNITY" 🤣🤣😂
He is wrestling with the Truth. I pray He comes to Christ !!!!!
@Matt
Love you man. "I don't know how plastic is made..." 😆 I appreciate your humility.
Dr. Peterson, please deal with this question: Is God a person? (Or transcendent tri-person?) Is God a being that reasons, acts, chooses, is conscious or self-conscious or self-aware, etc. Or is God just the word we use for the ultimate truth, goodness, beauty, perfection, etc., that we should strive towards?
It is clear to us that Jordan has not experienced the Peace that comes from entering into personal relationship with Jesus. We see the change in others, in their softened eyes and the deep relaxation that flows through their bodies, like Russell Brand after his Baptism. It appears that Jordan is not willing or able to be intimate with Him. Yet I cannot judge, because maybe he has been forged by God to do what he does.
History will recollect his story. It is a co-creative dance he does with The three-person God. He cloaks himself in ✝️☦️✝️Orthodox Icons and keeps Jonathan Pageau, an Orthodox Icon carver at his literal and symbolic right hand side.
Dr. Peterson spends more time in the presence of the Logos than the Pope, who recently referred to holding on to church dogma as a suicidal ideology. (60 Minutes interview…look it up)
Dr. Peterson is walking along the path of Right Teaching, i.e., Orthodoxy.
Who cares if he does or not. One should care that so many "Christians" are treating this man like some sort of saint.
@@rrickarrYour room must be very clean.
I'm sure you in your "clear" judgement of him believe he is headed toward eternal condemnation. There's always a pharisaical fundamentalist prick in the comments section of these types of videos.
Don’t just entertain intrigues, conversations and thoughts but meditate in and search your heart.
A long time ago, I remember Jordan saying (approximately) that belief in God scares him, it breaks him, because of what it means. He hesitates to SAY he believes because it’s not just big, it’s everything. Saying you believe is meaningless. To ACT your belief is intimidating, but goes beyond value. He really does seem to be wrestling with God, and I think it’s more honest than just saying “Yep, I believe it, man.”
God is a person (and more accurately 3 persons), not an “it”. I wonder if Jordan is missing that?
Not missing it, just disagrees with it. Or, more accurately, he’d likely have a very long explanation of how that’s just a metaphor for…stuff.
God is NOT a person. God is a spirit. Look it up in your Bible.
@@rrickarr You have just denied the divinity of Jesus Christ, a person. Way to go. You will also have to demonstrate what a person is to deny that it describes God. I am hoping that you just don't understand what a person is, and mistakenly believe it to mean 'mortal'.
God is not a person, he's an Elohim myth by Khazarians. Jordan is probably closet to true divinity than u and all Christian's
@enderoctanus Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God. Jesus is a version of God. God itself is, by definition, ineffable. To call God a "person" is to sin because he cannot be understood in such a way
The question is simple and he answered it in too many words but still simply. It is the same question I ask Christians all the time. Do you act like God exists? Do you act like there is life after death? If not, Why not?
Not only that, but he shows that atheism does not exist, because society cannot survive, if people actually acted like atheism is true.
Finally, someone who actually listened to what Dr. Peterson said!
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 We've heard this answer again and again. A simple answer to the question of whether God is the arbiter of these truths be answered with a simple "I don't know" from him. He seems to not be sure if there is an ultimate provider of this otherwise objectively true standpoint. It's a bit of cognitive dissonance. We've heard this answer. The afterlife question got right to the point.. His answer isn't hard to understand, and it also happens to be true and great for contextualizing this question. But he's still avoiding the simplest part of this question which is why PEOPLE KEEP ASKING HIM
He will get there
I'd have love you to ask Jordan "well its not as if you are the first person to think on a literary, metaphorical, or even psychological level Jordan. Why don't you learn from the Church Fathers instead of making up your own convoluted nonsense?"
I am not frustrated by Dr. Peterson's journey to faith. I empathize with him. Even as truths about Jesus and His Church were revealed to me it took time for me to embrace them. Read Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis. Conversion takes time. Often years or even decades.
Pray for him and all seekers. They will be grateful for those prayers. And trust God to save His own. He calls them by name. They will hear His voice and respond.
Wonderful explanation for those able to follow.
Sadly most will just glance over as overly wordy and complicated.
I agree with this definition but I feel that a belief is the literal sense is stronger even if it was not actually true. It's true in a different way.
Suspending our materialist judgement make faith is easier and stronger, your life get better faster than trying to navigate life with concepts in your head all the time. I think it might be a better use of the limited capacity of our brain.
Jordan's ego won't allow him to accept Christ as King. Even in the face of his wife being saved from death and becoming Catholic, Jordan will not accept Christ. It's a shame.
He was once asked if there was a video camera over the tomb of Christ would it show him walking out of there and he said "yes"
Peterson truly is the Maximus of our time.
You should have asked "Do you believe Jesus is God and died for our sins, resurrecting on the third day?"
There woulf be less space for JP to avoid and evade rhat question like he did here...
I don’t think that would work lol I think Jordan is a special individual who’s doing much more then the rest of us and is on his own journey to god but yeah it would be lovely if he came out and accepted Jesus lol
He's been asked that before and just says some nonsense and avoids answering the question.
Honestly, I've lost infatuation and respect for Peterson. His handling of these questions has turned me off of the way he answers questions in general. He is not precise, he is not clear, his trademark style is to smash a bunch of metaphors together, which makes him sound profound, and I'm sure there's SOME substance behind it all, but he consistently fails to articulate it.
I agree with you. And on topics outside of religion your description of his "explaining" can be just as bad or worse. His takes on climate science for example. He can be interesting and thought-provoking, but he blabs *A Lot* about topics he is not an expert in like he is one. He doesn't seem to know or care about misrepresenting reality as long as the greater good as he sees it is served. Too much Ego? Dunno, but I think it's more and more obvious he has 'issues'.
You'd enjoy the work of HG Tudor on narcissism, specifically the content on upper-midrange narcissist. I'll tell you, the guy's word salad is skilled!
He’s just being honest. He can’t force himself to truly believe if he simply doesn’t.
You can’t force someone to believe. Belief isn’t a choice. I try to believe but ultimately doubt creeps in.
I would be interested to know if
Jordan sees his understanding of the old testament to be the same as the Jews who wrote it.
Jordan sees his understanding to be the same as Mathew, Mark, Luke and John when they wrote the gospels.
Jordan sees his understanding to be the same as the writers of the epistles.
Jordan sees his understanding of the new and old testament to be the as the same as some of the Church fathers.
Or whether he considers his understanding to be different from some or all of the above.
Having watched the entire interview I think Jordan has yet to meet God to know him on a personal level as his savior, father, and guide. I know a number of people in the comments section have already mentioned this.
I've known legions of self-styled "Christians" (Including me! I'm one of them!) who have attended church, been baptized, listened to sermons, prayed long and earnestly, studied the Bible alone & in small groups, and grappled with many other authors in Biblical/psychological exegesis, since many years before JP ever came on the scene. Many of these people, especially when I was young (a decade or two before the Internet), even frequently parroted that bit about a "Personal relationship" with a "Personal Savior".
I say "parroted", not to scorn the validity of the idea/experience itself, but to point out that it is precisely that: An actual "experience". NOT merely an idea. (And certainly not the mere verbal recital of a mere tribal identity code-word!) This is the defining issue which a lot of "Evangelical Christians" seemingly fail to grasp about the nature of their own religion. Which apparently puts me and JP in pretty near the same place: "Knowing" the Faith, but not actually Knowing the Author.
I can read the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, and study all the other analysis that's been published about him. But no matter how much I might admire him, or even adopt his ideas and "follow" them as my own, I can't have an interactive personal conversation with Ben Franklin. In the same way, I can "faithfully" read the Bible and study God all my life. Maybe even try to "serve" His agenda. Maybe even try to convince others that they should do the same. But if the real Living God doesn't grant me a direct experience of Himself, I'd better not be claiming He has, before He actually does. The people who pretend to have a "personal relationship" with God when they actually don't, are the ones who will be told "Depart from Me, I never knew you". At this point in my life, the only thing I'm still sure of, is I'm in far less danger of Hell if I were a mere Agnostic, than to make my camp with the theologically-correct frauds.
Mr. Peterson going through the motions. First cry, then closey eye. Why use 5 words when you can use 500? 😂
Thank you for being sane and picking ip on his word salad BS.
Jordon is like, "Don't ask, look!"
I completely understand why he wants to get into the semantics of the question “do you believe in God?” We talk about this in my Bible Study a lot too, what does belief actually mean? And it turns out it’s quite a loaded question that can mean many different things to different people. However, common sense would dictate, most of the time people want to know if he recognizes his need of a savior, has put his trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins, and commits to living his life in a Christlike way. There’s far more one could discuss about belief, but that’s a synopsis and is similar to what most pastors would ask someone who is being baptized.
Nah, he's obfuscating again diverting attention away from the personal God of the Bible by focusing on His attributes and centring the same in a secular humanist context.. I mean Joseph Campbell, really!
Isn't that the truth! So like Joseph Campbell. I call it the Intellectual Disease. I think Jung suffered from it too. Always the bridesmaid, never the Bride. When Jung went to Rome in old age, he became overwhelmed and had to leave.
Joseph Campbell dealt with myths and he did not use such psychobabble!
Campbell wrote 'The Hero's Journey '
The Bible says love the lord with all your heart, soul and mind. Seems to me Jordan has only learned to love him with his mind so far. Don’t judge him, hopefully it feeds into his heart and soul soon.
Dude: "Do you believe in life after death?"
Peterson: 6 minutes word salad without addressing the simple original question a single time.
Hello, McFly! You're not paying attention in class.
"Belief is an existential commitment, not a statement of fact."
"There is no 'non-belief' position."
I have wondered if Jordan Peterson was a believer. I supposed not. He proved it today!
We never die, we are energy , we just change body, that’s what I think 🤔
I dont know why people are frustrated. This is an excellent and thoughtful answer to a magnificently complex question.
But people are well aware of this answer and position and he can't get past the practical reality to the spiritual. It's simple
@John.Christopher But we live in a practical reality. Faith is hard. Thus, the reason Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe." It takes a tremendous amount of faith to believe that which you can not know. May the good God bless us all with the faith it takes to believe. 🙏🏽
@@realCodyCurtis of course. This is ironically how I came to Faith as a skeptic. But then it took a leap of faith in prayer to get past the practical application. I still wrestle with it like most. I wish he could just say - "I'm looking forward to finding out" or something that establishes his doubt parameters ..which I guess in a way he's doing so.
When I read these comments it really worries me about the Christian community. In 2019 I was an atheist I have been since 2012 Jordan Peterson got me to seriously think about Christianity, not only did he do that. He was speaking to people like Bishop Barron, and introduced me to A Whole New World and a whole new way of thinking about Christianity. Come to find out people like Aquinas and Augistine also think similarly to him. Peterson is strange in the way he speaks about Christianity, but he 100% is a believer but he has an issue with the way Faith has been approached ever since the age of the enlightenment. In his interview with Alex OConnor where he was the closest to saying exactly what everyone wants, he pointed out the flaw of the line of questioning. The metaphysics of the question are materialist and empirical by nature. I think this is why the rise of atheism was possible as a normal thing. The west has been completely dominated by enlightenment thought and now we can’t escape that paradigm, but Peterson is trying very hard to.
4:35 matt! Love ur facial expression here 😂😂😂😂
He believes in God as the animating spirit, not some guy in the sky. I think his stance is pretty clear. He’s basically saying the spirit that is embodied by God and dwells in us is undeniable.
How to get out of answering simple questions:
1. Give a ridiculously short non-answer
2. When pressed on your dumb answer, patronize with an equally dumb non-answer and act like the questioner should understand
3. When pressed further, belittle the question itself by calling it “invalid” and asserting your own presuppositions.
4. Change the subject slightly and act like that topic is the “real” issue at hand
You’ve successfully not answered a question.
And yet so many fall for it, just see the replies here. The majority is truly dumb
Thr rights question is "do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior?"
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died for our sins and rose again on the third day?
Do you believe in the one true God.
AMEN!!!!! All of Peterson´s pop psycho babble leads nowhere. But the real issue is why so many "Christians" are running to this man instead of the Word of God!!!!
If he admits to himself that God exists he understands what that admission would require of him. JP doesn't do half way. It's all or nothing and admitting God exists he would have to become a radically different person, giving up his pride and allowing God to determine his path. It's a daunting ask for someone who has placed himself on such a high pedestal. He doesn't want to give his life to Jesus.
No, JP proves that there is no non-belief (in God) position. He destroys so-called 'atheism' in this clip.
Watch it a few times in a row, and take notes. It has nothing to do with him being reluctant to accept the consequences of God's existence -- his point is literally the opposite of that -- atheists cannot accept the consequences of atheism. True atheists cannot exist, thus the question is absurd and the framework is invalid.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894my comment is not based solely on this clip. It's based on listening to him talk about God for years like he knows what is asked of us and afraid to make the leap. Jesus asks us to let go of everything and he's afraid of failing that ask in the same way an atheist fears admitting there is a God.
Sometimes I think Jordan is one of the greatest public thinkers of our time, and then other times (like this) I remember that he’s basically a postmodernist.
Watch it a few more times, and take notes. He's not a postmodernist. He literally destroyed atheism, in this clip.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 I think of Atheism as modernism, but agnosticism as postmodern.
@@derek4412 When he destroyed atheism, agnosticism was caught up in the blast, LOLOLOL.
Instead of asking, Jordan, do you believe in God? We Christians need to ask him
Do you walk in the God's way?
Do you cultivate a relationship with God,Jordan?
When tragedy strikes, Jordon, do you lean toward yourself or do you lean towards God, Jordan?
Stating the question with a emphasis towards being instead of proof will help Jordan answer our Christian question does he walk toward God with us.
Well I guess if he goes either way he alienates half of his audience. Or perhaps he is still journeying.
Tbh at this point all i know is that i know nothing at all💀
The answer is of course I believe but we don't know what the hell believe means, only if you able to know God with absolute certainty only then can you confidently believe. Jordan takes the position of how dare I confidently say I believe who am I in relation to God. I act as if I believe, only God will be able to officially confirm if I am or not, but just look at the groups of believers out their they soooo mixed with their flesh that who can tell the difference between their ego and the Holy Spirit.
I think it's time Jordan does a series on the biblical events of the new testament. There is were he will understand it means to begin to believe
It’s not a call to “adventure.” It’s the voice of God, beckoning us to come to His Son to be reborn.
I think he's using timeless, universal memes for these various aspects of God, not defining them literally -- Jesus was only born about 2,000 years ago, so you're applying a definition that is not timeless.
It is through brokenness that Jordan has come this far to even openly discuss Biblical truths and be in support of them. He just needs one more step. To publically proclaim he believes the biblicall account, because it is written - if we CONFESS before men, not just discuss theological principles and sort of lean into their broad intellectual applications. YOU NEED ONE STEP FURTHER Jordan
As someone who encountered the Lord at a young age and continously seeks out the Godhead and his mysteries. My spirit quickens listening to Jordan's teachings. Alot of you think he is confused. He is not, he is trying to break you free from the spirit of religion and to remove the vail from your eyes slowly. As Jesus said why call me Lord and not do as I say. Why blatantly say you believe in Jesus, when you can teach what he taught , showing that the word is truly in you. For what comes out of a man's mouth is what is in a man. I have listened to him and the words he speak are of spirit and of life. Thus, proving that the Logos is in him and him in the Logos. Simply put he does completely believe in Jesus, but what is salvation without confession. Notice, by confessing you are saved why is that, because the inside of the cup is the same as the outside, but confessing shows what is on the inside and if what is on the inside is the word then the outside also will be one in the same, through actions. Thus, though 2 becomes one. I honor you Mr. Peterson.
The whole Christian obsession over “do you believe” has been one of the greatest detriments in spiritual maturity. It’s like we stopped at 3rd grade with God and Jordan is trying to bring a collegiate level of framework to the Christian life. It’s so refreshing to have his voice with this level of clarity.
Wrong. "But who do you say that I am?" Matthew 16:15-19. Jesus, who is God in the flesh, requires all of us to answer this question. The answer to that question determines our path. It's the absolute crux of EVERY single person's existence. Jesus made it EASY to answer this question correctly.
What’s the context for that verse?
He doesn’t bring much clarity at all to the subject. I like Jordan, but man he convolutes things so much.
Beautiful!
"What color is a musical tone," he says.
Synesthesia is not necessarily a disorder.
Sound is made of frequencies. So too is light.
For those familiar with Iain McGilchrist, the simplified questions ('Are you a believer?') are coming from a shallow left-brain understanding of the world, and the Bible was written from a much deeper right-brain understanding that uses the highly symbolic language of myth and metaphor. It's a far more poetic experience of reality and of life. It can't be understood from the stripped-down and purely rationalistic *prosaic* mindset that wants everything explained in newspaper or dictionary terms. Until you're able to think in this deeper more poetic way, your understanding of anything religious or spiritual is bereft of any real meaning or depth.
I do love to hear him talk. But I don't think it is that complex. Maybe to the complex mind, but even the simple mind can grasp the truth of a loving, creator God.
I think I'm seeing some positive aspects to Jordan's perspective on God here. As a christian, it's easy to get too focused on the relationship/personification notion of God, where as Jordan is focused on where God dwells in our lives ahnd in nature, the Omnipresent part of God. 🤘
Francis Schaeffer once said that we must believe that, we must believe that, if we ran our hands over the cross on which Jesus' was crucified we could get splinters in our fingers. I pray for Jordan but I think that, at some point, he needs to fish or cut bait.
Yes
“You either believe in that or you believe in its opposite. There’s no non belief position here.”
Let's turn this one around, shall we? How many people who proundly proclaim to believe in God and Jezus can articulate concretely what this means, exactly?
That’s what I’m saying. What do you believe, why do you believe it, what does that actually mean, etc.
JP is saying that "Belief is an existential commitment, not a statement of fact."
In other words, to _believe_ means that you must live as if you believe. The short answer is to do what you think is right, instead of what is best for you, personally.
Which is why atheists do not exist -- they are unable to commit to the logically necessary consequences of atheism.
Jordan Peterson won't hurt you physically. But he can hurt you in other ways.
- Gets the question
- Answers with another question
- Answers the other question of which he asked himself
Don't get me wrong, I really love JP and all of what he's done, but I believe he has thought himself into a filosophical pit with this one and has a hard time looking up at the God that wants a personal relationship with him.
What about those of us who do indeed "Want a Personal relationship" with God... but can't actually find one? What am I to do, when this God who allegedly wants Personal Relationship with me, seemingly refuses to engage? Even after a lifetime of me trying to engage with His Church?
What are JP and I supposed to "say" in that case? Maybe we're actually taking the question more seriously than some of the people pretending to ask it.
You're interviewing a man who has studied Jung. He has explored the subconscious more than most. Once you have explored the subconscious you are going beyond belief you are acsending a whole new level. Beyond a polarized yes or no. It's simply the All.
Why would you not think no life after death. There is life
Have patience. He's clearly wrestling with his belief in God. His whole life has been trying to unite the material and the spiritual. He may never do it. Yet he tries.
He is clearly trying to make up his mind. But he wants to be sure before he submits. Perhaps that's naive. Or perhaps thats exactly why we love him so much.
Someone needs to challenge Jordan Peterson about the difference between the highest psychological position in the value hierarchy, which Jordan calls as God, and the actual metaphysical God that should occupy that position.
Peterson has what i call analysis paralysis
1 Corinthians 16:5
Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.
This verse will be my next favorite verse in the Scriptures amen to it.
For all of you who want to judge his belief. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
And instead of running to him to confirm your own Christian comfort, read the Word!!!!!! Why are you listening to a confused man instead of reading the Word God gave you!
@@rrickarr Now you’re judging me. We all take our spiritual journey in different ways. If you are honest, the truth will appear. Be patient with those who are searching.
A very relevant point, because this comment section seems to be full of people who did not take the time to understand JP's point, and project their own nonsense onto him. So many, that it's actually kinda creepy -- like some kind of bot attack.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 maybe. Good that people are talking. Or are we just bots? Lol
@@blazehudson2147 When 90% of comments are idiotic non-sequiturs, looking down on Dr. Peterson as if he's some kind of heathen moron, what difference does it make, whether they are from an atheist bot attack or from 'real' (presumably mainly Catholic) commenters? How can I distinguish between those two possibilities?
I think Jordan Peterson is just like me, an agnostic who wish Jesus was real but can't really know for sure, at least in this world.
Hes saying its not a question if you think its a question you need to read and think more as well as act.
I love Jordan. I have so much hope for him. And he's the emblem, the definition, of Matthew 19:23-24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.'" There are more kinds of wealth than money. Jordan is very rich in human intellectual capacity and practice. He's standing at the door, looking through and seeing the reality and the framework and even the majesty. But he thinks seeing it and even understanding-perhaps more than most-does the trick. But following God isn't mental ascent. It's trusting and submitting to the real and living God with whom we all have to do. Please, Jordan, come THROUGH the door.
Why does Jordan Petersons salvation need to be anyone else’s business, but Jordan and God.
Because we care about him man, we want him to be there.
Most of us like Jordan, but damm he's so evasive when asked this kind of questions
He is a believer but he knows there is more to it than just believing. You can’t just say your a believer and convince yourself and others your going to the heavens. It’s what you know already as one because gods inside you. God can not be verbally described as an inanimate object God lives inside us as individuals. God is mysterious for a reason. That’s why he created us with free will. To let us walk our own paths to him.
For the frustrated Christian’s upset with Jordans answer please read. When he means it’s more complicated than a statement he probably has this in mind:
“Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
I suppose so. If people uphold the ten commandments but don't attend church or become Christians, they can still do good things via belief. Belief is not the preserve of the church,. But then again as time goes on, as the culture becomes less Christian I think the ability to behave according to the ten commandments without religion becomes increasingly difficult when they are not being upheld by society itself.
This is like someone flirting with you, telling you how much they adore you and how great of a boyfriend/girlfriend you would be but at the end of the day they don't want to date you. 😂
I can see his yes isn't yes and his no isn't no. People can defend his run around, but we are to come to Christ like children.
He doesn't even know what a Christian is; his defense of Richard Dawkins as Christian makes this obvious. Still, I hope he'll get it one day.
"your actions echo in eternity"
let's see if that explanation will work with God when he asks Jordan why didn't he openly confess before men.
Yeah I mean at this point I'm just annoyed.
Not only did he answer the question, he destroys atheism, and proves that the 'question' of God's existence is absurd.
He says that there is no such thing as a non-belief position (in God). And he is 100% correct.
I think a lot of people simply have trouble understanding what he is saying, or perhaps were watching on their phone and couldn't hear very well.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894I agree with you. Also the majority of people have poor listening comprehension so we shouldn’t expect them to understand what he says
If you can't say something SIMPLY then you are lacking in understanding or trying to distract from something. If he is so humbly on the level of every man and woman, trying to earnestly help, then he should be able to answer questions in a clear and concise manner that everyone can understand. This was a LOT of unnecessary verbage. And I love Peterson. But this was annoying. @@shotbybennihana
Christians should mind their own business with regards to Jordan Peterson. He's not in the church. He is accountable just like any of us, accountable not to his audience but to God. He's not sharing the gospel. He's analysing it. If he becomes born again, you will know it because his tune will change and you will rejoice.
According to how the Scriptures are written and the parable of the Sheep and the Goats...Our pursuit is NOT eternal life or even trying to trust that the existence of God is real without doubt. In the end, the day of judgement, it's about whether He knows us and if our pursuit was for His favor. "I am your very Great Reward" (Genesis 15:1).
Jordan answers a question with a question.
Is it just me or is Matt nodding along but actually think “um, no”